**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 23 02:59:57 2008 Oct 23 03:05:04 you know what Oct 23 03:05:06 wait Oct 23 03:05:08 wrong channel Oct 23 03:05:53 haha Oct 23 03:05:54 tell us rooly Oct 23 03:05:55 fdisk /dev/sdx Oct 23 03:06:02 del al partitions.. Oct 23 03:06:05 all* Oct 23 03:06:06 it's a facebook thing Oct 23 03:06:09 you guys wouldn't care Oct 23 03:06:14 true Oct 23 03:06:21 go away then; shoo :p Oct 23 03:06:22 will gthe next version have 3g? Oct 23 03:06:31 zeno_: no Oct 23 03:06:39 * rooly sighs...it's all dialup damnit Oct 23 03:06:52 why do people care so damn much about their 3g Oct 23 03:07:35 well i would use it for web/music a lot and need better speed Oct 23 03:08:57 streaming music over gprs... Oct 23 03:09:16 i don't think that was what it was designed for...of course i could be quite wrong Oct 23 03:10:24 well would do other stuff too, but thats just what would use a lot of bandwidth (and voip i guess) Oct 23 03:12:16 believe me, i know the usefulness of a generic data plan Oct 23 03:12:30 however...as of right now, you're better off waiting till the next version of the phone Oct 23 03:12:50 wimax would be an interesting addition, anyone know its power requirements? Oct 23 03:13:13 a billion dollars Oct 23 03:13:33 depends where you live Oct 23 03:16:38 can voip be used reliably on 3G or gprs? Oct 23 03:16:45 how's the latency? Oct 23 03:17:56 rooly: Don't waste any time with partitioning the SD card -- just use a swapfile. Oct 23 03:18:04 Mwester! Oct 23 03:18:10 No. Oct 23 03:18:30 * mwester is quite contrary. Oct 23 03:18:57 no that's Mary Oct 23 03:19:10 swap files Oct 23 03:19:11 hah :p Oct 23 03:19:11 meh! Oct 23 03:19:11 Oh yeah, the one with the garden. Oct 23 03:19:15 how does your garden grow by the way Oct 23 03:19:16 the weak way out Oct 23 03:19:16 oh no, raster Oct 23 03:19:18 hehe yes Oct 23 03:19:20 it's too late Oct 23 03:19:21 Mwester, indeed :) Oct 23 03:19:27 i already have swap setup Oct 23 03:19:33 it is entirely lame to have swap on a phone Oct 23 03:19:49 shows that't u've given up ever trying to make anything efficient Oct 23 03:19:50 :) Oct 23 03:19:54 you could implement deep sleep easy Oct 23 03:19:59 * mwester goes off to find a visual metaphor to respond to raster's comment. Oct 23 03:20:37 Here it is. This applies to swap on a phone as well: http://xkcd.com/463/ Oct 23 03:20:49 yay, an xkcd! Oct 23 03:21:17 mwester: HAHAHAHHAHAHA Oct 23 03:21:24 perfect Oct 23 03:21:52 http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/cheez_doing_it_wrong.jpg Oct 23 03:21:59 that also applies Oct 23 03:22:42 :) I love that site. Oct 23 03:24:49 mwester: I thought it would be this one, http://xkcd.com/85/ Oct 23 03:25:35 I havent figured out the path for adding more swap tho Oct 23 03:27:08 HOLY SHIT Oct 23 03:27:12 * rooly just tried dillo Oct 23 03:27:15 and like i said Oct 23 03:27:18 HOLY SHIT Oct 23 03:27:34 ? Oct 23 03:27:37 light speed achived? Oct 23 03:27:44 dillo is cool Oct 23 03:27:51 * rwhitby can't work out whether rooly likes it or not Oct 23 03:28:00 as long as u only want to browse... a subset of the intranudes Oct 23 03:28:01 i do like it Oct 23 03:28:04 light speed Oct 23 03:29:37 I like that it render before downloading the whole page. Oct 23 03:29:48 (contrary to konqueror) Oct 23 03:30:20 i like that it starts, renders the default page, and quits faster than any other browser i've ever seen, all on a 400mhz processor Oct 23 03:30:57 anything with stylesheets aint going to get u far Oct 23 03:30:58 :) Oct 23 03:31:20 ro try real pages Oct 23 03:31:22 seriously Oct 23 03:31:25 dilloi is cool Oct 23 03:31:33 until u find out how much it cant do Oct 23 03:31:37 this is 2.0.0 Oct 23 03:38:25 raster: i don't really use the internet all THAT much Oct 23 03:38:31 on my phone at least Oct 23 03:38:53 seriously Oct 23 03:38:56 try dillo on site Oct 23 03:38:58 sites Oct 23 03:39:05 most stuff sure - iut displays Oct 23 03:39:08 but its not rpetty Oct 23 03:41:57 raster: i didn't buy this thing for pretty Oct 23 03:42:04 anyone who does is a fool Oct 23 03:42:25 i bought it to contribute to the initial developement of the first open-source phone/phone os Oct 23 03:44:30 no Oct 23 03:44:36 i mean the sites look like arese Oct 23 03:44:39 ie not usabel Oct 23 03:44:42 or just dont work at all Oct 23 03:44:49 as there is no stylesheet or javasc ript support Oct 23 03:44:58 well maybe not to the kind of person that can't live without 3g Oct 23 03:45:22 but i can live without my igoogle page every so often Oct 23 04:16:09 Hello Oct 23 04:16:25 Does anyone want to buy a mint Freerunner + 8 gig micro SD card for $250? Oct 23 04:16:43 Is it extra-strong mint? Oct 23 04:16:50 And have you licked it much? Oct 23 04:16:50 More like Andes mint Oct 23 04:17:00 Nope no phone-to-tongue contact Oct 23 04:17:11 hmm Oct 23 04:17:24 walrustown: if you keep that on hand, i might be able to get my school to buy it from you Oct 23 04:17:56 rooly: how long? Oct 23 04:18:02 walrustown: i'm intested Oct 23 04:18:16 meh, nemik will beat me to it Oct 23 04:18:24 :( sorry Oct 23 04:18:37 nemik: what would be the best way to do the deal? Oct 23 04:18:53 paypal ok? easy for you to ship to the USA? Oct 23 04:18:59 nemik: yeah I'm in AZ Oct 23 04:19:12 nemik: I think I have a paypal acct, if not I can make one Oct 23 04:19:15 cool, i'm in chicago. does it come with box/accessories and all? Oct 23 04:19:29 nemik: yup, everything Oct 23 04:19:40 perfect. i'll /msg you Oct 23 04:19:44 k Oct 23 04:26:37 well, i just learnt that a little bluetooth gps reciever i have from garmin uses a battery that is identical in size and shape as the FR Oct 23 04:26:51 and thus, i now have an external battery charger that can charge dead batteries Oct 23 04:27:01 nice Oct 23 04:27:55 nice. is it a holux one? Oct 23 04:28:10 holux? Oct 23 04:28:22 it's a garmin gps 10x Oct 23 04:28:22 i loved those because the used the same (very cheap and very plentiful) batteries that came from old nokia 3310 phones Oct 23 04:28:38 oh, sorry. missed thr garmin part Oct 23 04:29:10 i think this battery is made by fic... it looks 100% identical Oct 23 04:29:32 even seemingly useless notches on the plastic match Oct 23 04:30:14 interesting Oct 23 04:32:11 walrustown: I wish you'd been around when I bought mine Oct 23 04:32:43 $250 is a good deal Oct 23 04:33:38 yea i can't resist. i've been on the fence for buying one for a while. this is great Oct 23 04:34:46 just don't expect good usability initially hehe Oct 23 04:34:55 it took a bit of tinkering Oct 23 04:37:56 haha, yea i'm well aware Oct 23 05:53:16 is theer a way to empty the whole datebook? Oct 23 05:55:40 hi, i have this error when i try to upgrade kernel from testing tree: Package kernel md5sum mismatch. Oct 23 05:55:55 is there a way to avoid md5 check? Oct 23 05:56:23 (kernel for neo1937/gta01) Oct 23 05:58:04 where are downloaded opkg packages? on /tmp directory? Oct 23 06:03:48 any plans to port android to openmoko? Oct 23 06:05:13 israr: check the mailing lists, some people are working on it Oct 23 06:06:10 thanks Oct 23 06:07:35 i thought android already worked on the openmoko Oct 23 06:07:48 arent we just waiting for google to release it for use? Oct 23 06:08:47 i heard a claim that it worked back in may Oct 23 06:08:59 i havent seen it, of course Oct 23 06:10:06 i i have a problem, i have an internet connection with pppoe...with OM i ping google, debian.org but when i try to opkg update seems to happen nothing...is it possible? Oct 23 06:11:04 Hello Oct 23 06:11:43 Do you have problems with "qpe" ? On my FR (Om2008.9) takes 80-100% of CPU :( Oct 23 06:36:22 Morning all the daily build of 2008, from the other day, would not boot in my FR so I installed FSO instead. Oh my God how intuitive is this interface. I'll have to go search the wiki to find out how you switch the phone off. In Zone I've now got four screen boxes: Keep pressed, let go, suspending and wake up. If you press the power button it goes straight from let go to suspending. Still love the idea of FSO and want to delve into Dbus but Oct 23 06:36:22 not too keen on the power button's action Oct 23 06:37:47 Rupert_: well, change it? Oct 23 06:41:18 lindi: I have every intention of when I find the piece of code that controls it Oct 23 06:41:35 Rupert_: which version of zhone is it? Oct 23 06:41:48 this is 0-git20080909-1 Oct 23 06:43:30 lindi-: like I said first time with FSO as 2008 would not boot. Used a testing build I downloaded yesterday. So not idea which version of zhone Oct 23 06:49:58 morning Oct 23 07:00:23 Rupert_: it's bit hard to help if i don't even know what version of zhone you have Oct 23 07:00:35 Rupert_: maybe you can send me a copy? Oct 23 07:04:00 any idea how to disable pin code in the sim card? Oct 23 07:10:22 is it possible to connect a printer to the phone and take printouts of documents? Oct 23 07:10:34 AJuOnLiNE: sure why not? Oct 23 07:14:09 lindi-: ok .. was confirming. thanks :) Oct 23 07:14:31 one of the devs builidng a new module to sahana asked me to look into this possibility Oct 23 07:15:03 of having a label generatingfeature too in the application i am working on.. Oct 23 07:15:09 so that they can take print outs Oct 23 07:26:02 freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07framework * rd9cea9e637f6 10/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_contacts.py: Oct 23 07:26:02 freesmartphone.org: opimd: fix a few problems in pimd_contacts Oct 23 07:26:02 freesmartphone.org: * use DBus path intead of uri Oct 23 07:26:02 freesmartphone.org: * disable query.check_new_contact Oct 23 07:27:38 freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07framework * rcf248ba49fe2 10/tests/opimd.py: Oct 23 07:27:38 freesmartphone.org: tests: updated opimd test Oct 23 07:27:38 freesmartphone.org: Add checking that added contact appears into the query for the same name Oct 23 07:43:23 hallo Oct 23 07:44:03 hi Oct 23 07:46:16 hi, i have a problem, i have an internet connection with pppoe...with OM i ping google, debian.org but when i try to opkg update seems to happen nothing...is it possible? Oct 23 07:47:30 opentrinity: strace? Oct 23 07:48:49 lindi-: i'm at work :-( now i can't Oct 23 07:49:21 lindi-: is it normal? Oct 23 07:49:38 opentrinity: ? Oct 23 07:50:27 that ping but cant' do opkg update Oct 23 07:51:07 ping is icmp, the other is tcp, that could make a difference Oct 23 07:51:47 viq: wget works Oct 23 07:57:05 good morning Oct 23 07:57:44 opentrinity: better ask when you can debug it Oct 23 08:01:38 ok tx Oct 23 08:02:32 morning Oct 23 08:27:33 anyone could be fix md5sum problem with testing/om-gta01 tree Oct 23 08:27:39 , please? Oct 23 08:29:41 mickey|SYSTEMS: hi! how are you? Oct 23 08:30:07 my feet are aching ;) Oct 23 08:30:34 good, otherwise Oct 23 08:30:42 :-) Oct 23 08:31:13 lots of mokies? Oct 23 08:35:14 some Oct 23 08:35:22 U-Block rocks btw. Oct 23 08:35:25 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/95b5267cad5640eb125fc8a098284148.png Oct 23 08:42:45 mickey|SYSTEMS: did you take the boat? ;) Oct 23 08:47:51 no, he walks along the bed of the river and breathes through a hollow reed Oct 23 08:48:32 because breathing through a solid one is tricky :-) Oct 23 08:49:09 Kensan_: heh Oct 23 08:49:11 right. always a man to learn from his mistakes, he won't be trying that again. Oct 23 08:49:11 with the FR in a plastic bag Oct 23 08:49:51 that's not a river, but the freeway Oct 23 08:49:54 pb__: it's actually an interstate road I believe ;) Oct 23 08:50:31 it's a river with exit lanes :D Oct 23 08:50:56 Kensan: oh dear, in that case he must have looked rather foolish Oct 23 08:51:23 let's hope there was not too much traffic at the time Oct 23 08:52:16 mickey|SYSTEMS: right, I have erased my rootfs. reflashing now, fingers crossed. Oct 23 09:01:42 mickey|SYSTEMS: hm, better. but still not so good. no jffs2 errors this time, and I do at least see "INIT: version 2.85 booting", but that's as far as it goes. Oct 23 09:01:45 evidently something is still broken Oct 23 09:02:12 gotta go to a meeting with our lawyers now but I will look at it again later Oct 23 09:04:17 ok, cool Oct 23 09:04:20 good speed Oct 23 09:11:58 torindel: is your OM gentoo overlay available ATM? Oct 23 09:33:51 freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07framework * r4536568f9471 10/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_contacts.py: Oct 23 09:33:51 freesmartphone.org: opimd: fix a few things Oct 23 09:33:51 freesmartphone.org: * return DBus path instead of uri Oct 23 09:33:51 freesmartphone.org: * GetMultipleResults actually returns a list Oct 23 09:33:54 how do you do updates? from ssh or do you type that "opkg upgrade" within the terminal? Oct 23 09:35:25 Either shouldwork, but you need network connection, so you might just as well do it over ssh Oct 23 09:36:40 beni_: if you are updating your ssh server it will restart so be mindful of that Oct 23 09:36:57 openssh does not kill the connections fortunately Oct 23 09:37:24 no but dropbear does, not sure if that is still default Oct 23 09:38:09 if you have a dropbear, then a 'nohup opkg upgrade dropbear & ' will work from a ssh login, then once it restarts you can reconnect Oct 23 09:38:10 use screen if you are concerned with drop outs Oct 23 09:38:35 yes or that :) Oct 23 09:38:46 dns53: +1 Oct 23 09:44:49 freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07framework * r9eded9bb80c6 10/tests/opimd.py: tests: added test for opimd ContactQuery.GetMultipleResults Oct 23 09:54:41 * Weiss wonders if he's the only one who REALLY doesn't like Trac Oct 23 09:54:48 hi guys Oct 23 09:55:02 when will openmoko be released for general consumers normally ? Oct 23 09:56:15 laBrute: when the software is stable and ready I guess. Oct 23 09:56:48 laBrute: you can't tell "general consumers" what they're going to like, so i guess "when the general consumers decide it's ready for them" is the best possible answer Oct 23 09:57:02 Kensan_, i know, but is there any deadline, and approximately ? Oct 23 09:58:08 laBrute: judging by the state of the software it's still going to be a while... you would need to ask somebody inside Openmoko. Oct 23 09:59:31 * hipitihop waves good evening to the inmates Oct 23 10:00:34 * hipitihop wonders if android is any closer to running on the FR Oct 23 10:00:55 Weiss: well what they like/don't like is one thing but the product must meet certain criteria to be considered "ready", meaning there's functionality that consumers expect of the product. Stability for example is one of these things.. Oct 23 10:01:15 hipitihop: you might want to read openmoko-kernel. Oct 23 10:01:16 Kensan_: have you /used/ any commercial phones? :-) Oct 23 10:01:40 cjb: yes, and I can place phonecalls and write sms reliably. Oct 23 10:01:51 out of my last four, only the non-PDA ones have been anything like what i'd call stable Oct 23 10:02:00 actually make that my last six. Oct 23 10:02:38 treo 680, sonyericsson p910i, sonyericsson p800, visorphone. all had major usability and stability issues. Oct 23 10:02:47 cjb_ie: that may very well be but the consumers are not happy with that. This is no excuse for the FR to have the same issues. Oct 23 10:03:01 only the nokia "just a phone" phones have actually been stable. Oct 23 10:03:28 Kensan_: the horrid unstable stuff still manages to sell, though :( Oct 23 10:04:04 there's a book, the design of everyday things (aka the psychology of everyday things) which explores related issues a bit Oct 23 10:04:15 cjb_ie: sure, if you have an established company which is already in the market you have the power to push crappy products to some extent. Oct 23 10:04:50 people don't buy what will actually be good for them (usability, stability); they buy what they think will be good for them (i.e. big feature list). Oct 23 10:05:15 gotta run bbl Oct 23 10:05:48 me too. later Oct 23 10:09:42 Kensan_, thx Oct 23 10:26:17 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki 07gsmd2 * rbcd538ebac69 10/ (25 files in 4 dirs): Oct 23 10:26:17 freesmartphone.org: Updated dbus Call and SIM interfaces to newer ones Oct 23 10:26:17 freesmartphone.org: All existing changed methods have been updated. Method stubs for the new ones have been added. Oct 23 10:26:17 freesmartphone.org: Applied Keith Mok's patch on sending messages with odd phone number length Oct 23 10:27:30 a long overdue commit for gsmd2 :) Oct 23 10:45:59 ok, i can confirm beyond any doubt that the garmin gps-10x uses a compatible battery to the OM, and can charge OM batteries (including deep discharged ones) Oct 23 10:47:33 ieatlint: cool Oct 23 10:48:36 ieatlint: do you mean that i can use Garmin's battery with my FR? Oct 23 10:48:47 or just that i can use it's charger Oct 23 10:48:54 yes, to both Oct 23 10:48:54 its* Oct 23 10:49:02 oh, cool Oct 23 10:49:10 however, using the garmin's battery with the freerunner has disadvantages Oct 23 10:49:23 :| Oct 23 10:49:23 it will not report it's capacity (that's a specific feature of the OM battery) Oct 23 10:49:41 and i am unsure if it will charge the garmin battery... my guess is it will, but i haven't tested Oct 23 10:49:53 ieatlint: i'll just count 4 hrs from the time i unplug it ;) Oct 23 10:50:37 you don't need to Oct 23 10:51:10 if you monitor the current to the battery from the pmu... there won't be a negative charge (ie, battery sucking power) if it can't/won't charge Oct 23 10:51:20 i can test this, give me a couple min Oct 23 10:51:47 this should be on the wiki... good stuff Oct 23 10:52:48 Hi! I am using fso-testing - recently I have had major problems getting a GPS fix, am I the only one? Oct 23 10:53:55 odlg: is the link in the topic relevant to you? Oct 23 10:54:56 Dont think so, it worked just fine until 1-2 weeks ago Oct 23 10:55:14 There has been a couple of kernel updates, suspecting that is the cause Oct 23 10:59:09 ieatlint: (garminbat) could U add to wiki? Oct 23 10:59:52 apparently the pmu just seems to freak out when it can't read bat stats Oct 23 11:00:19 so yeah, the only way to see if it can charge the garmin battery is to plug it in with the phone on and see if it dies, hah Oct 23 11:01:31 ieatlint: re PMU: no, won't care Oct 23 11:02:37 ieatlint: readout isn't even done via PMU Oct 23 11:03:29 ieatlint: so the battery display will not work with the gps-10x bat? Oct 23 11:03:45 nope Oct 23 11:03:55 DocScrutinizer2, when i try to cat "current_now" in sys, i get a "Timer Error" Oct 23 11:04:12 DocScrutinizer2: thankx Oct 23 11:04:19 ^x^s Oct 23 11:04:21 i'd guess that's bat readout Oct 23 11:04:38 ok, i added the garmin battery for the gps 10x to the wiki Oct 23 11:04:43 obviously cant work with alien bat Oct 23 11:04:53 tnx Oct 23 11:05:01 i'm currently charging an OM battery in the garmin gps 10x... i'm going to wait for it to finish/explode before reporting it as viable Oct 23 11:05:10 lol Oct 23 11:05:13 lol Oct 23 11:05:38 it's ok, the fire department has excellent response times for my house, and i've excellent medical insurance Oct 23 11:05:52 worst thing might be internal protection cutoff Oct 23 11:06:00 IIRC the OM battery has overcharge prevention builtin itself Oct 23 11:06:12 wouldn't surprise me Oct 23 11:06:19 thats it Oct 23 11:06:25 but it's a li-ion charger to begin with... it shouldn't be an issue at all Oct 23 11:06:36 yup Oct 23 11:06:49 fine, i'll add it now and remove it if it explodes Oct 23 11:07:06 XD Oct 23 11:07:15 hmm... come to think of it, it's charging next to two monitors totalling $3k... that'd be worse than acid burns on meself Oct 23 11:07:26 as long as it doesn't rely on special function of third pin Oct 23 11:08:23 ieatlint: usually won't explode :-) Oct 23 11:09:14 seeing as the garmin device itself i believe is incapable of reporting capacity... Oct 23 11:09:43 gta01 bat had temp sensor Oct 23 11:09:51 plus that'd be the most idiotic thing ever... rely on the battery saying "okay, 100%" ... and then even stupider, blindly charge it when it doesn't report any capacity info Oct 23 11:10:54 so 01 won't charge 02 because of missing temp feedback Oct 23 11:11:19 maybe garmin is similar Oct 23 11:11:48 hmmm, actually... i haven't tested it fullz Oct 23 11:11:50 fully Oct 23 11:12:01 i can only confirm that the charge light is on, lol Oct 23 11:12:22 thats a good sign Oct 23 11:12:43 except that the charge light remained on after i removed the battery from it Oct 23 11:12:52 duh Oct 23 11:12:53 i killed a battery to test it (ran it dead) Oct 23 11:13:01 left it in the garmin for about 15min now Oct 23 11:13:17 and previously i couldn't get into uboot, it's not mostly booted the phone after 15min Oct 23 11:13:50 11% charged... excellent Oct 23 11:13:58 15 min should suffice to boot 02 Oct 23 11:14:32 unfortunately the garmin gps10x is $76 Oct 23 11:14:38 so this means garmin charging 02bat confirmed? Oct 23 11:14:48 yes, confirmed Oct 23 11:14:55 :-) Oct 23 11:14:57 and on the wiki Oct 23 11:15:10 it's a nice bt gps device though Oct 23 11:15:13 :-) *2 Oct 23 11:15:26 i use to use it with my nokia n80, and have used it with some laptops Oct 23 11:16:24 i'm still convinced a generic li-ion charger will work with the FR bats Oct 23 11:16:38 sure Oct 23 11:17:07 possible yes, safe who knows Oct 23 11:17:08 its generic, its universal Oct 23 11:17:26 the ER knows Oct 23 11:18:06 dns53: theres always bat internal prot to keep it safe Oct 23 11:18:36 i would not trust it if you are using another charger but it's up to you Oct 23 11:18:42 livetime and wear might see impact Oct 23 11:18:50 sparkfun sells generic li-ion chargers for as low as $17 Oct 23 11:19:17 ~docscrutinizer Oct 23 11:19:18 rumour has it, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Oct 23 11:20:14 rumours are always true -- politics have taught me so Oct 23 11:21:08 dns53: there *is* decent prot in 02 bat Oct 23 11:21:22 ~docscrutinizer Oct 23 11:21:23 i heard docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Oct 23 11:21:30 ~docscrutinizer Oct 23 11:21:43 let's see... Oct 23 11:21:46 ~ieatlint Oct 23 11:22:01 all sorts of useful info on me Oct 23 11:22:09 :-D Oct 23 11:23:00 apt: ieatlint is the garmin guy Oct 23 11:23:01 okay, DocScrutinizer2 Oct 23 11:23:08 hardly Oct 23 11:23:27 i now how more non-garmin gps devices than garmin Oct 23 11:23:45 ~ieatlint Oct 23 11:23:45 hmm... ieatlint is the garmin guy Oct 23 11:23:46 2x FR, 1x htc dream and 2x garmin ... see! Oct 23 11:24:07 apt: ieatlint is a 15 year old girl looking for a good time Oct 23 11:24:08 ...but ieatlint is already something else... Oct 23 11:24:10 ;-) Oct 23 11:24:14 damn you! Oct 23 11:25:20 ~ieatlint Oct 23 11:26:31 apt: ieatlint is a 15 year old girl looking for a good time Oct 23 11:26:32 okay, DocScrutinizer2 Oct 23 11:26:42 hehe Oct 23 11:26:53 imagine the paedophiles i'll meet now.. Oct 23 11:27:44 apt: forget ieatlint Oct 23 11:27:45 DocScrutinizer2: i forgot ieatlint Oct 23 11:28:03 i've been told that's a pretty easy task Oct 23 11:30:17 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rfa687d022e2a 10/fsod/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Oct 23 11:30:17 freesmartphone.org: Add Python Plugin Manager skeleton. Still TODO, does nothing. Just some Oct 23 11:30:17 freesmartphone.org: GOB stuff Oct 23 12:07:49 joerg Oct 23 12:08:34 mpf talking to myself Oct 23 12:38:21 all busy with compiling android? Oct 23 12:38:36 will it work with an arm 4? Oct 23 12:38:46 yes Oct 23 12:38:54 cool Oct 23 12:38:54 the source is released Oct 23 12:38:58 as I understood it was just a recompile.. Oct 23 12:39:14 snp_: it's more than a recompile Oct 23 12:39:26 all the specific function for arm5 has to be rewritten Oct 23 12:39:34 yuck Oct 23 12:40:10 I've heard the kernel is already done (or is almost don) Oct 23 12:40:22 see openmoko-kernel ml Oct 23 12:41:10 Is it true the kernel is almost done? Oct 23 12:41:15 dolf1074: it's simple; `find /andriod | xargs -n 1 sed -e 's/clz/nop/g'` Oct 23 12:41:26 Android would be an interesting port.. if they can it functional without the keyboard Oct 23 12:41:59 android does support touch screen only devices i believe Oct 23 12:42:07 toggles_w: but it's should be handy if I know what other people already has done, because from there I should start Oct 23 12:42:25 dns53: Yes but android is build with in mind that there is a real keyboard included Oct 23 12:42:30 dolf1074: ask mwester Oct 23 12:42:32 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-October/005966.html sounds promising Oct 23 12:42:45 dns53: So there isn't an onscreen keyboard Oct 23 12:43:11 toggles_w: on email? Oct 23 12:48:32 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r1a6d390f796c 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/om.py: Oct 23 12:48:32 freesmartphone.org: ogpsd: Clean up the GPS time calculation (Thanks Jan) Oct 23 12:48:32 freesmartphone.org: The previous time calculation code was a mess and in the end only worked Oct 23 12:48:32 freesmartphone.org: because two errors cancelled each other out. Oct 23 12:51:27 dolf1074: there exist something called ShapeWriter WritingPad, but how it actually work I don't know.. Oct 23 12:51:55 snp_: maybe there was a better way to contact him Oct 23 12:52:27 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-October/006010.html email the adress on the top? :9 Oct 23 12:54:22 dolf1074: you can talk to bricode Oct 23 12:54:43 ok, thanks. Will do it Oct 23 12:56:02 dolf1074: he's working on the Android port for Koolu. Maybe he will be in later Oct 23 12:56:39 So they are the two who are basically working on porting the android? Oct 23 12:57:31 dolf1074: Sean and Brian both have the kernel up and running afaik. I believe they will pool ressources on all further ports since they are working towards the same goal. Oct 23 12:58:05 dolf1074: the patches against the openmoko kernel tree are also on the ML if you are keen on building the kernel yourself. Oct 23 12:58:19 I've already found that :) Oct 23 12:58:23 I assume they are going to push the patches towards the android git Oct 23 12:58:47 They will try to push it on the openmoko kernel (that's what i've read) Oct 23 12:58:58 Isn't that backwards Oct 23 12:59:31 It's how you look Oct 23 13:00:11 if you start with the android kernel, you have to strip the android specific things and pull in the openmoko things. and vice versa Oct 23 13:00:45 :p Oct 23 13:01:06 Let me explain it different: The 2 kernels have to same base, so where you put the patches, it doesn't care Oct 23 13:32:52 Good morning... Oct 23 13:33:22 Android stack changes will be pushed back to Google. Patches for the kernel will be pushed to Openmoko. Oct 23 13:34:08 thanks for the clarity ;) Oct 23 13:34:17 I've been in contact with Sean, have had a reply, and am waiting for some more information. Oct 23 13:34:50 The patches I've got for the kernel are somewhat big and ugly, so I'm in the process of making them a little more palatable to integrate into the Openmoko tree. Oct 23 13:35:15 nice Oct 23 13:35:29 and they will come in the stable branch? Oct 23 13:38:36 * swetland yawns Oct 23 13:41:13 Sean actually submitted a patch last night/this morning, so it will probably be in stable soon. Oct 23 14:02:25 dolf1074: the ultimate goal is not to push it in either android or openmoko but to mainline kernel. Oct 23 14:28:19 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r3901ed206df4 10/tools/cli-framework: cli-framework: Crop readline history to 1000 lines Oct 23 14:35:58 how in the world do you suspend FSO ? :( Oct 23 14:39:33 rebelThor: Send the correct DBus message. Oct 23 14:40:14 mwester: yeah, i figured that, but shouldn't it work by pressing the button? Oct 23 14:40:31 Well, that depends on what you think the FSO image is. Oct 23 14:40:54 From the FSO team's point-of-view, FSO is a framework, and provides no GUI -- zhone (the gui) is just a test tool. Oct 23 14:41:22 So you need to have a real GUI to drive FSO --- that's what the SHR project (among others I suspect) is trying to build. Oct 23 14:41:26 mwester: I don't think people will ever understand this Oct 23 14:42:00 CVirus: I am coming around to mickey|munich's thinking that perhaps they should have stuck with command line tools for testing instead of Zhone. Oct 23 14:42:25 no wah, zhone rocks Oct 23 14:42:28 But what is funny is that in as much as Zhone is just for testing, it is still better than the 2008.9 stuff shipping from Om! Oct 23 14:42:52 true Oct 23 14:42:56 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r6c103070b07b 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/nmea.py: ogpsd: Remove dbus imports from nmea.py Oct 23 14:42:57 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r77f722f03a88 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/gpschannel.py: Oct 23 14:42:57 freesmartphone.org: ogpsd: Save the path in FileChannel constructor Oct 23 14:42:57 freesmartphone.org: After introducing initializeChannel and shutdownChannel methods we need Oct 23 14:42:59 freesmartphone.org: to save the path in the constructor so we can access it in Oct 23 14:43:01 freesmartphone.org: initializeChannel. This functionality should probably go to the base Oct 23 14:43:03 freesmartphone.org: class instead. Oct 23 14:43:05 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r82e4b025af14 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/gpschannel.py: ogpsd: Fix shutdown logic of the SerialChannel Oct 23 14:43:06 (er, I should qualify that -- personal opinion). Oct 23 14:51:48 mwester: SHR wouldn't suspend either Oct 23 14:52:31 Ok :( Bug or did they not yet implement that? Oct 23 14:53:05 It might be that suspend isn't high on the priority list. Suspend works perfectly -- but resume often fails on the freerunner. Oct 23 14:54:20 mwester: afaik mickey|munich contemplated on removing all UI stuff from the FSO images just to make clear, that it's a devel image. Oct 23 14:56:10 so anyone knows the dbus message for suspending? Oct 23 14:56:15 been searching for it for a while Oct 23 14:57:06 org.freesmartphone.Usage.Suspend() Oct 23 14:57:32 i see that zhone is responsible for dimming (making blank) the screen. where is the configuration so that i could turn off this feature? i installed debian on my FR and want to read ebooks but screen turns off after few seconds. Oct 23 14:59:13 Raigedas: zhone is python -- so just edit it! Oct 23 14:59:25 mickey|munich: Just a quick remark about your oe-commit that was just shown by CIA-25. Is that your "official oe commit" emailaddress? Oct 23 14:59:28 mm.. ok Oct 23 15:00:54 Raigedas: zhone no longer does dimming Oct 23 15:00:59 oevents does it Oct 23 15:01:02 see the rules.yaml file Oct 23 15:01:13 timings can be edited in frameworkd.conf Oct 23 15:01:43 Kensan_: oooh Oct 23 15:01:45 thanks very much, i will check Oct 23 15:01:49 Kensan_: that#s wrong, thanks Oct 23 15:03:43 mickey|munich: yeah, I just saw it and thought somebody should give you a heads up :) Oct 23 15:37:07 hallo Oct 23 16:17:56 hi Oct 23 16:23:36 http://www.tuxbrain.com/fdom_en.html Oct 23 16:23:43 so im waiting Oct 23 16:26:30 nothing yet Oct 23 16:26:56 slaxxin: what are you waiting for? Oct 23 16:27:57 xmas, it's coming Oct 23 16:38:18 download Oct 23 16:39:59 no file yet Oct 23 16:41:09 wheres the jffs2 file? Oct 23 16:43:25 how do i operate the fdomizer script? Oct 23 16:43:53 slaxxin: http://www.tuxbrain.com/fdom/Fat_and_Dirty_OM.200809_20081023.rootfs.jff2 Oct 23 16:46:46 which kernel the same old 1? Oct 23 16:53:12 Hello, how can I change a default volume of speaker ? Because it's too quiet when I'm calling Oct 23 16:53:18 I have Om2008.9 Oct 23 16:55:18 When I set volume through alsamixer, it's automaticlly set to 77 % when I start a call Oct 23 16:55:24 (i'm sorry for my English) Oct 23 16:55:44 hi i have a problem with opkg update....i ping www.google.it but opkg don't download anything Oct 23 16:56:08 opentrinity: can you wget http://www.google.it/ ? Oct 23 16:56:57 yes Oct 23 16:57:22 (not google ;-) Oct 23 16:57:50 i have donloaded a script in a forum Oct 23 16:58:09 (i have a pppoe connection) Oct 23 17:01:04 Nobody, please? :( Oct 23 17:02:18 I know, that i must change some default values for qtopia-dialer, but I don't know where :( Oct 23 17:02:30 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r1dffd1aad91c 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/gsm/const.py: ogsmd: Fix typo in const.py Oct 23 17:02:30 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * ra978a13b41bc 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (gsm/sms.py modems/abstract/mediator.py): Oct 23 17:02:30 freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Introduce PDUAddress.guess for guessing number types and use it Oct 23 17:02:30 freesmartphone.org: PDUAddress.guess() will try to figure out what kind on address Oct 23 17:02:33 freesmartphone.org: (international number, national number, alphanumeric) is called and set Oct 23 17:02:34 freesmartphone.org: the numbertype appropriately. Oct 23 17:11:52 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r1c9a049dc1c1 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/gpsdevice.py: ogpsd: Log info for the DBus Signals Oct 23 17:14:21 Bye Oct 23 17:21:17 what's the latest available version of qtopia / qte? Oct 23 17:24:34 df_aldur: http://qtextended.org/modules/devices/openmoko.php says 4.3.2 Oct 23 17:26:08 freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * re908b182261c 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ti_calypso/unsolicited.py: Oct 23 17:26:08 freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: [TI Calypso] Return False in _reactivateDeepSleep Oct 23 17:26:08 freesmartphone.org: This function is added as a timer from _checkRecampingBug in order to Oct 23 17:26:08 freesmartphone.org: reenable deep sleep. Not returning False leads to many Oct 23 17:26:10 freesmartphone.org: _reactivateDeepSleep being scheduled over time (if you're suffering from Oct 23 17:26:12 freesmartphone.org: Bug #1024). Oct 23 17:26:32 yep, which puzzles me because I have 4.3.3 installed, and I'm sure 4.3.4 was announced a while back Oct 23 17:27:40 yay the link is working Oct 23 17:32:19 anybody have fdom_latest running? Oct 23 17:33:26 slaxxin: I think so Oct 23 17:33:39 the community has recieved the ball ,,and are now starting to turn upfield Oct 23 17:34:03 unless there have been fresh images since yesterday Oct 23 17:34:14 just now Oct 23 17:34:20 ah Oct 23 17:34:34 http://www.tuxbrain.com/fdom_en.html Oct 23 17:35:37 as soon as i get done installing im going to have a 2 hout power outage Oct 23 17:35:45 someone could help me to understand why i can ping and wget but opkg update doesn't worg? Oct 23 17:35:48 for repairs Oct 23 17:36:40 can u dns? Oct 23 17:36:58 ie.. www.google.bla Oct 23 17:37:08 yes Oct 23 17:37:33 does opkg just exit quietly? Oct 23 17:37:44 no do nothing Oct 23 17:37:59 opentrinity: what distro? correct feeds ... repositories ? Oct 23 17:38:04 did ya just flash the latest image? Oct 23 17:38:20 Downloading http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/Multiverse/Packages.gz Oct 23 17:38:23 2008.9 Oct 23 17:38:51 i have a pppoe connection (i don't have a router) Oct 23 17:39:18 well get 1 Oct 23 17:39:36 ? Oct 23 17:39:44 cause its crazy to have a computer act as a router Oct 23 17:39:53 :-( Oct 23 17:40:17 meh, iptables is easier to configure than most routers Oct 23 17:40:33 i can solve the problem? Oct 23 17:40:44 (u can hal me :-( ) Oct 23 17:40:48 help* Oct 23 17:40:50 can you wget that file? Oct 23 17:41:24 no Oct 23 17:41:33 Connecting to downloads.openmoko.org (88.198.93.219:80) Oct 23 17:41:44 but you can wget other stuff? Oct 23 17:41:50 remains in that line Oct 23 17:43:11 yes for example wget http://blog.tugulab.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/om-internet.sh Oct 23 17:43:13 works Oct 23 17:43:16 weird Oct 23 17:43:18 dns is fine Oct 23 17:43:32 How are we today, gentlemen? Oct 23 17:43:33 df_aldur, port 80 ? Oct 23 17:43:36 and slaxxin Oct 23 17:43:37 and the site's up because I just tried myself Oct 23 17:44:18 20081023 FDOM comencing launch XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Oct 23 17:44:40 * df_aldur might replace qtopia with fdom, seems more active Oct 23 17:45:05 i like qtx but i got bored Oct 23 17:45:11 :-( Oct 23 17:45:32 I'm dual booting debian for when I want something geekier Oct 23 17:45:33 bkRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Oct 23 17:46:09 opentrinity: what does the NAT config on your computer look like? Oct 23 17:46:10 yea it needs some buttons Oct 23 17:46:22 more like slaxxin needs to get rid of that cat :p Oct 23 17:46:35 mooo Oct 23 17:47:02 møøøøøøøø Oct 23 17:47:27 i sii Oct 23 17:47:34 ahhhhhh Oct 23 17:47:44 df_aldur, sorry but ...i don't know:-8 Oct 23 17:47:51 boots an a green racing stripe Oct 23 17:47:54 didn't you set it up? Oct 23 17:47:54 mang Oct 23 17:48:00 no Oct 23 17:48:10 er, who did? Oct 23 17:48:23 * Dave silences slaxxin Oct 23 17:48:33 is standard settings Oct 23 17:48:37 debian* Oct 23 17:48:50 Oct 23 17:48:52 Oct 23 17:48:53 hi. how do you clear the screen, restart the level, etc. in numpyphysics? Oct 23 17:48:59 did you follow the instructions on the USB networking page? Oct 23 17:49:12 Oct 23 17:50:18 df_aldur, aldur yes iptables -A POSTROUTING -t nat -j MASQUERADE -s 192.168.0.0/24 Oct 23 17:50:18 sysctl -w net.ipv4.ip_forward=1 Oct 23 17:50:19 whip out the keyboard Oct 23 17:50:39 right, ok Oct 23 17:50:49 that first line is your NAT config Oct 23 17:50:49 * Dave throws cats at slaxxin Oct 23 17:50:55 k :-/ Oct 23 17:51:06 bubba_rue like cats Oct 23 17:51:08 do you see any other lines if you type iptables-save? Oct 23 17:51:30 fdom has mooookooo Oct 23 17:51:49 df_aldur, aldur yes Oct 23 17:52:17 :PREROUTING ACCEPT [285:19872] Oct 23 17:52:17 :POSTROUTING ACCEPT [158:8574] Oct 23 17:52:17 :OUTPUT ACCEPT [156:8456] Oct 23 17:52:17 -A POSTROUTING -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQUERADE Oct 23 17:52:17 COMMIT Oct 23 17:52:18 or maybe it just left my programs on? Oct 23 17:52:35 etc Oct 23 17:52:43 no other rules though? Oct 23 17:52:47 ie lines starting with -A Oct 23 17:52:59 no Oct 23 17:53:19 can you wget the file from the computer? Oct 23 17:53:40 i try Oct 23 17:53:59 iptables \o/ Oct 23 17:54:37 df_aldur, :-/ how Oct 23 17:55:04 whit scp or wget? Oct 23 17:55:10 with-+ Oct 23 17:55:24 I mean can you successfully wget it from the computer? Oct 23 17:55:58 i use wget with interner url...how i can wget something in pc? Oct 23 17:56:31 set time in clock works correctly Oct 23 17:56:38 opentrinity: I have an apache server running, but scp is more convenient Oct 23 17:56:47 bricode: ping Oct 23 17:58:16 bricode: What does Sean mean with 'Android nearly fully functional' in http://n2.nabble.com/Android-codebase---Patch-set--1-tp1368755p1368755.html Oct 23 18:00:35 Does he mean that Android starts, but the hardware specific things (like gsm modem) isn't working OR does he mean the full Monty? Oct 23 18:01:15 Hi Oct 23 18:01:39 I have one question about the kernel, does it uses initrd? Oct 23 18:01:48 lewis: depends on the distro Oct 23 18:02:01 FDOM and Debian Oct 23 18:02:29 lewis: debian is soon going to use initramfs Oct 23 18:02:36 lewis: i have not found source code for FDOM so i don't know Oct 23 18:02:36 dillo browser Oct 23 18:03:08 pesky slaxxins Oct 23 18:03:17 looks like use the same kernel than OM2008.08 Oct 23 18:08:19 !logs Oct 23 18:08:19 Channel logs for #openmoko are archived at: Oct 23 18:08:20 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/%23openmoko Oct 23 18:08:21 Live-logs are available at Oct 23 18:08:23 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/livelogs/%23openmoko.livelog Oct 23 18:08:25 See ?? help-logs for usage instructions Oct 23 18:09:06 hi, i think i bricked my freerunner Oct 23 18:09:11 i did, sudo ./dfuscript.sh fr u-boot gta02v5_and_up-u-boot.bin Oct 23 18:09:12 Oh noes! Oct 23 18:09:19 abattis_: however. Oct 23 18:09:30 and it booted up fine the first time Oct 23 18:09:35 abattis_: if you have a functioning recovery flash, then you can unbrick it. Oct 23 18:09:35 battery was well charged Oct 23 18:09:40 and now when i hit the power button, nothing happens Oct 23 18:09:47 A) Oct 23 18:10:03 Unplug USB and battery for 60s, plug in, and see what happens. Oct 23 18:10:23 i got it just last week, and used dfuscript to update to Fat_and_Dirty_OM.200809_20080927.rootfs.jffs2 Oct 23 18:10:42 i tried 10 seconds, will try now :) Oct 23 18:11:05 and then used dfuscript to update kernel to Om2008.9.uImage.bin Oct 23 18:11:16 and then u-boot to gta02v5_and_up-u-boot.bin Oct 23 18:12:13 hahahaha hmm it now boots! Oct 23 18:12:13 lol Oct 23 18:12:13 how bizarre Oct 23 18:12:30 i think it might have been a suspend problem actually, since i didnt shut it down, thikning about it :) Oct 23 18:19:56 sweet Oct 23 18:20:01 thanks SpeedEvil! :) Oct 23 18:20:59 :) Oct 23 18:28:08 Speedevil :) Oct 23 18:34:50 i have upgraded uboot , result is lack of splash screen and unability to boot because lack of mtdparts variable , when i try loadenv i get "*** Warning - bad CRC or NAND, using default environment" , any idea ? Oct 23 18:44:45 Zoup: just curious, why did you upgrade uboot? Oct 23 18:47:40 donomo: good question Oct 23 18:47:54 bricode: ping Oct 23 18:49:53 Zoup: heehee. seems dangerous to me Oct 23 18:50:24 donomo: keep that in mind! ;) Oct 23 19:15:29 yay linwifi works on fdom Oct 23 19:16:28 lintwifi? Oct 23 19:17:18 lint-wifi Oct 23 19:17:31 heh Oct 23 19:17:37 Guess he's still in the game then... Oct 23 19:20:55 hello, i've an adaptator for usb keyboard...how do i use it in debian...I don't find the ohci-hcd module... Oct 23 19:23:02 Gnutoo: uname -r Oct 23 19:23:46 lindi-, ok (it's rebooting) Oct 23 19:24:02 no one could help me...i ping www.google.com but opkg update doesn't work Oct 23 19:24:13 lindi-, it's the standard debian...did they made a new release? Oct 23 19:24:40 opentrinity, what connection are you using? wifi? Oct 23 19:24:48 Gnutoo: just tell me the output so i know what standard you have :) Oct 23 19:24:51 Gnutoo, usb Oct 23 19:24:57 whit my pc Oct 23 19:25:00 with* Oct 23 19:25:16 Gnutoo: are you supplying power to the keyboard adaptor? Oct 23 19:25:30 opentrinity, try wifi...it's simplier...so you won't have to handle internet connection sharing Oct 23 19:25:56 cjb_ie, i'm supplying power to the USB keyboard... Oct 23 19:26:07 Gnutoo, says me to enter password...i write wep...but says unabl to join Oct 23 19:26:24 opentrinity, that's normal Oct 23 19:26:55 opentrinity, it normally join even if it tell it coudn't but you'll need to udhcpcd after that Oct 23 19:27:28 lindi-, 2.6.24 Oct 23 19:28:06 Gnutoo: apt-get install linux-image-2.6.24-openmoko-gta02 Oct 23 19:28:19 lindi-, ok thanks Oct 23 19:30:37 Gnutoo, what? Oct 23 19:31:40 opentrinity, i have an open wifi, in om2008.9 i join my wifi network...at the end it says unable to join but you have a wifi icon on the bar that appeared Oct 23 19:32:06 opentrinity, after the icon appeared ...you open a console and do: udhcpc eth0 Oct 23 19:32:15 ok Oct 23 19:32:28 i have to rebbot...later i try Oct 23 19:32:34 bbl Oct 23 19:38:19 lindi-, it says: error creating symbolic link `./boot/uImage.bin : Operation not permitted and i'm root Oct 23 19:39:08 what filesystem is that on? Oct 23 19:39:34 ah yes...vfat on the /boot Oct 23 19:39:42 right...vfat = no simlinks Oct 23 19:39:54 mabe i'll umount /boot and it will go well Oct 23 19:40:53 anyone know how to put android on the openmoko Oct 23 19:40:59 Gnutoo: which version is it trying to install? Oct 23 19:41:06 Gnutoo: noo, don't umount /boot of course Oct 23 19:41:18 Torikun: hush, you'll make mwester cry Oct 23 19:41:25 lol Oct 23 19:41:36 ASU is not going as fast as I though Oct 23 19:41:37 lol Oct 23 19:41:49 lindi-, too late but i can copy the uImage from /boot to the boot partition manually Oct 23 19:42:03 as it's on a sd-card Oct 23 19:42:11 Torikun: Yes. You'll have to get the kernel patches, build a custom kernel, then get the user-space patches, apply and build those, then get the google sources, build those, build a flash image, and flash it to your phone. Oct 23 19:42:16 Gnutoo: again, which version is it installing? Oct 23 19:42:29 wow Oct 23 19:42:40 Are there plans to make it easier Oct 23 19:42:40 lol Oct 23 19:42:42 lindi-, 20080808 Oct 23 19:42:56 mabe i should apt-get update Oct 23 19:43:01 Gnutoo: full version number please Oct 23 19:43:11 or is that the full version? Oct 23 19:43:21 Gnutoo: in any case you should have 20080903.git2ea34171-1 Oct 23 19:44:03 20080808.git43620428 Oct 23 19:44:09 ok i'll update Oct 23 19:44:12 yep Oct 23 19:44:35 Jeti: Howdy. Just taking a look through it right now. Oct 23 19:45:07 ok, will wait till you know the answer on my question Oct 23 19:46:33 Jeti: Looks extensive so far... Oct 23 19:47:14 what do you mean by extensive? Oct 23 19:47:25 anybody got a fast mirror with the latest fdom? Oct 23 19:48:00 bricode: define extensive in ubiquity gave me the answer ;) Oct 23 19:48:49 libc stuff looks like it checks out (note: I haven't integrated and compiled with them. Oct 23 19:49:50 nice Oct 23 19:50:58 cesarb: ping Oct 23 19:53:18 bricode: but you don't know what Sean meant by having android almost working? Oct 23 19:53:45 How can I add a link to my own app in Om2008.8 / FDOM ? I found /usr/share/applications, but I see that creating .desktop file there is not enough Oct 23 19:54:06 Jeti: Said mostly everything save for a few corner bits. Oct 23 19:54:13 Jeti: he means the "full stack" Oct 23 19:54:25 Jeti: at least that's what I gather by looking at the patches. Oct 23 19:54:31 wow Oct 23 19:54:41 Jeti: This patch is for the libc and dalvik (vm) plus some GCC. There are some other places that have ARMv5 specific code. Oct 23 19:55:01 ok Oct 23 19:55:53 but nice job, almost everything ported in 2 days. (I forget the hardware related things like the gsm modem for a while :p) Oct 23 19:56:16 Jeti: it was not done in 2 days Oct 23 19:56:38 Had Sean the code already before it came opensource? Oct 23 19:56:40 Jeti: Sean has had prior access to the source afaik. Oct 23 19:56:43 However, that being said, Benno (Ben Leslie) had some patches to enable generic (ie: C code) code in the other modules. Oct 23 19:56:56 Yes. He did. Oct 23 19:57:08 Sean, you're a cheater :p ;) Oct 23 19:57:31 Even without the patches though, there have been many people who have contributed work and/or analyses. Oct 23 19:58:53 I read about some. I like the opensource sprit that many people have Oct 23 19:59:05 Or the spirit to get things ported Oct 23 19:59:06 * balrog_ had prior access but wasn't interested... Oct 23 19:59:22 balrog_: why? Oct 23 20:00:09 Jeti: cause it doesn't seem like android is the distro i dreamt of Oct 23 20:00:13 ui wise or code wise Oct 23 20:00:23 Jeti: I guess he has other interesting projects he is working on. Oct 23 20:01:15 I would ask: because of you don't like the android or hadn't time enough to start on it Oct 23 20:01:25 but I know my answer already Oct 23 20:01:32 and yeah, if you can spend your time on some collaborative, open effort, then it's better spent Oct 23 20:02:01 #neo1973-germany Oct 23 20:02:45 I just want the android be ported, because then I have a UI that work and have many options. (ps. I know the lowlevel bugs will be the same as om) Oct 23 20:03:55 as long as you are ok with google uninstalling your apps Oct 23 20:04:14 ronny: your are mixing things. Oct 23 20:04:37 having the possibility and be able to do things are 2 different things Oct 23 20:04:52 i'm sure it'll work, without much porting even, maybe MokoMakefile will be able to build android images in some time Oct 23 20:05:02 *having the possibility and do some things are 2 different things Oct 23 20:05:05 ronny: with the source all there you can build your own image and obviously leave out the bits you don't like. Phones that come with android preinstalled that's a whole different story. Oct 23 20:05:18 Kensan: hmk Oct 23 20:05:30 balrog_: I think rwhitby was working on building it. Oct 23 20:06:51 it would make sense for him to wait until Sean McNeal posts all his findings / work, i think Oct 23 20:07:42 or did he already? Oct 23 20:07:58 I think he has posted most of his work Oct 23 20:08:42 but the 'patchset #1' after his post on the devel mailling list, gives me the suspicion there is more Oct 23 20:09:20 balrog_: he checked out the source and tried to build the source without any patches. Afaik he just wanted to build vanilla android as a first step :) Oct 23 20:09:48 balrog_: too see if it was even in a buildable state. Oct 23 20:11:29 Kensan: cool Oct 23 20:13:01 balrog_: he also mentioned he had some android-related domains registered where he will probably host images etc. Oct 23 20:13:30 balrog_: but I don't know much about that so you would have to talk to him directly. Oct 23 20:14:29 * mwester is very perplexed about why everyone is in such a hurry to get android, when the basic hardware and low-level operating system for the Freerunner is in such a shambles... Oct 23 20:14:30 * balrog_ wonders if andro.id is free :) Oct 23 20:15:06 mwester_: buzzzzzzwordbingo Oct 23 20:15:20 android == no problems Oct 23 20:15:29 from one daay to another :p Oct 23 20:15:38 I dunno tbh, the reason I got an fr was because of a conscious rejection of android because of the corporate control Oct 23 20:15:41 I fear it's more probably described by the old analogy of drowning men clutching at straws. Oct 23 20:16:17 I still think fso has the potential to be the better system, at least for hackers Oct 23 20:16:24 df_aldur: There's no need for any control on the FR; it doesn't work well enough to require any. Oct 23 20:16:25 crappy lowlevel + good UI OR crappy lowlevel + little UI: What do you prefer? Oct 23 20:16:47 heh Oct 23 20:16:49 Jeti: second one Oct 23 20:16:51 Jeti: I prefer the community as a unified whole force Om to fix the low-level. Oct 23 20:17:13 om community is a commuity of (hobby)developers Oct 23 20:17:23 mwester: have you given up on openmoko then, or are you expecting better things from gta03? Oct 23 20:17:28 Total focus on the low-level is the only way this will get addressed, and having the entire user community all fixate on the latest GUI is not going to do anything. Oct 23 20:17:44 how low-level? hardware? Oct 23 20:17:47 df_aldur: I expect the gta03 to be perfect in every regard, it will even solve world hunger. Oct 23 20:17:53 df_aldur: drivers Oct 23 20:17:54 mwester: Was that not the thing they are doing right now? Oct 23 20:18:06 low-level means hardware if they cannot fix it in software. Oct 23 20:18:10 oh, you can't register anything.id domains, only .co.id and .web.id :( Oct 23 20:18:19 as I understand it there are hardware issues with the gta02 that can't be fixed by the drivers Oct 23 20:18:19 Jeti: I no longer believe. Oct 23 20:18:30 Yes. Oct 23 20:18:47 But they better find software workarounds, like they did with the GPS and SD card. Oct 23 20:18:54 well tbh I think the hardware is in openmoko's hands Oct 23 20:18:55 mwester_: att least the fso and the swisscomm team do good work Oct 23 20:19:04 mwester: And you believe they will if we go as unified whole ? Oct 23 20:19:10 balrog_: andr.co.id ;) Oct 23 20:19:18 the community doesn't have a lot of input into it Oct 23 20:19:20 Note that Swisscom is a commercial entity, with money to back developers. Oct 23 20:19:23 Jeti: no, but I KNOW that if they are not pressured, they will not do it. Oct 23 20:19:40 bricode: yeah Oct 23 20:19:40 I would argue that Android will provide similar backing to the platform. Oct 23 20:19:45 fic is an company too Oct 23 20:19:47 Jeti: Are YOU prepared to throw $400 worth of GTA02 in the trash can, and spend another $400 on the GTA03? Oct 23 20:19:53 That's what Om did with the GTA01 Oct 23 20:19:55 viq: i'm checking out andro.it now :) Oct 23 20:20:01 I am, actually Oct 23 20:20:10 bricode: Android will fix the wifi ? Oct 23 20:20:12 no: therefore I want a android interface and hope om will fix the backend Oct 23 20:20:13 I didn't buy the gta02 expecting it to be a perfect phone Oct 23 20:20:21 Not Available :( Oct 23 20:20:26 mwester: well the community is not a homogenous crowd so there's always people with different interest etc. sure android has a lot of publicity now but it's not like everybody starts contributing just because android is on the map. Oct 23 20:20:28 Than om will not have to do the frontend anymore Oct 23 20:20:31 df_aldur: then it meets your needs as is? Oct 23 20:20:39 but I would want to know that the hardware issues identified in the gta02 are fixed in the gta03 Oct 23 20:20:44 Good for you - I'm happy that some folks find it worth the money! Oct 23 20:20:45 mwester: as a phone, no Oct 23 20:20:54 as a tech toy, most certainly Oct 23 20:21:03 Kensan: That's fine, but I don't believe that's the driver. Oct 23 20:21:35 df_aldur: i want gta02 fixed Oct 23 20:21:41 Kensan: I put forward that people are clamoring for Android in the false hope that with Android they will be able to use the device as a day-to-day phone ---- and that's not a good thing to belive. Oct 23 20:21:42 because that's the unit i paid for Oct 23 20:21:44 I think if people buy freerunners with android preinstalled they will be pretty disappointed Oct 23 20:21:47 mwester: It may not for this version of the phone, I don't know, but I do know money fixes a lot of issues. Oct 23 20:22:03 bricode: I'm not following you -- who's money? Oct 23 20:22:12 bumbl: yep, but you have to accept it's possible that some things cannot be fixed in software Oct 23 20:22:17 although some can and have Oct 23 20:22:31 some people seem quite happy using the thing as a real phone with qtopia Oct 23 20:22:33 mwester: I agree on that we don't have to tell the people that android will be more stable than om 2008.8 Oct 23 20:22:40 because it won't Oct 23 20:22:41 bricode: are you saying that there will be money exchanged between Android and Om? Or that we, the community, need to pay Om more moeny? Oct 23 20:22:41 I expect android to be at least as good as that Oct 23 20:22:54 mwester: yes that is true, but there are people genuinly interested in porting android to openmoko hardware and those people are working on stuff. Oct 23 20:23:06 I have no problem with that. Oct 23 20:23:16 Indirectly, Android will give money to OM by expanding their market. Oct 23 20:23:16 I'll certainly try Android when it's available. Oct 23 20:23:22 mwester: those people from the community who believe Android will save us all are rather naive and should be educated. Oct 23 20:23:26 But I know that Android won't fix my battery life problem. Oct 23 20:23:31 Or make the FR resume. Oct 23 20:23:46 are those hw issues? Oct 23 20:23:50 I and Kenson know to (I hope) Oct 23 20:23:57 df_aldur: no. Oct 23 20:23:58 bricode: Ok, but how does that help those who hae GTA01 and GTA02 hardware? Oct 23 20:23:59 mwester: No, but it may expand the community, or provide enough sales for OM to hire more internal staff for such issues. Oct 23 20:24:02 mwester: what's wrong with resume? Oct 23 20:24:02 df_aldur: no, but lowlevel things Oct 23 20:24:06 I'm more concerned with the audio quality tbh Oct 23 20:24:23 bricode: I'm completely selfish -- if "X" doesn't solve MY problem with the phone, then "X" is not a solution for me. Oct 23 20:24:29 mwester: doesn't work always that right Oct 23 20:24:36 mwester: Provide a different, perhaps enhanced, user experience. Oct 23 20:24:38 sorry was for gurugentoo Oct 23 20:25:05 mwester: well one good thing about low-level stuff is that people can work on it whatever distro they choose to run on their phone Oct 23 20:25:11 it's all basically the same in the end Oct 23 20:25:13 mwester: It should be noted that you decided to purchase and become involved with a Freerunner. Oct 23 20:25:14 gurugentoo: something wrong with the display after resume i hear Oct 23 20:25:23 mwester: yes, but I think you agree that for some people android is an interesting project and they want to work on porting that. Oct 23 20:25:26 so expanding the community by porting android isn't going to hurt Oct 23 20:25:34 gurugentoo: only in the recent kernels though, it worked ok for me in older kernels Oct 23 20:25:46 df_aldur: that's exactly why OM should focus on that. Oct 23 20:25:47 In addition, Google has been known to provide developer resources to various projects, so it's not impossible that they would help out with the lower level stuff. Oct 23 20:25:56 balrog_: I really haven't noticed anything, maybe I have an older kernel Oct 23 20:25:59 Kensan: absolutely - I have nothing against Android at all. I'm just perplexed how everyone seems convinced that Android will solve all their problems. Oct 23 20:26:11 otoh, on the application front we'll have yet another platform Oct 23 20:26:16 gurugentoo: Not all people are affected Oct 23 20:26:24 mwester: yes, but it comes with all the media coverage is got. Oct 23 20:26:26 people who want to write applications for the fr just don't know where to start Oct 23 20:26:32 bricode: ;) Ok. And I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Oct 23 20:26:43 Android will solve my problem "Need some new cool thing to show to the iphone users" :P Oct 23 20:26:58 mwester: those people joining this channel because of android are not the ones who will stay long enough to see it till "the end"... Oct 23 20:27:03 kirun: hopefully :p Oct 23 20:27:22 yeah, maybe it's more the case that we all want to try out something new and cool, than expect it to make the phone work magically Oct 23 20:27:39 df_aldur: Yep - you're right -- and that reminds me that nothing anywhere seems to be solving the techinical problems with the really cool hardware that those apps might be written for : the glamo, the motion detectors... Oct 23 20:27:47 after all, most fr owners have them because they like playing with new and cool things Oct 23 20:28:01 kirun: what are the iphone killer features in android? :p Oct 23 20:28:04 Kensan: Do you think, then, that the users on this channel can fix these technical issues with the GTA02? Oct 23 20:28:07 mwester: I believe android will not have an impact on whether OM will fix the low-level issues. Oct 23 20:28:46 kirun: i heard it wan't very innovative and didn't have much new things, but i'd like to be wrong (never ran androdi myself) Oct 23 20:29:04 mwester: There's >350 people in here I believe that some of them could truly help solving the issue be it by testing etc. Oct 23 20:29:14 balrog_: Well, the iphone user in question is in the Google reality distortion field... so it must have something to show off Oct 23 20:29:15 I don't think android is particularly an iphone killers, it's just open and standard Oct 23 20:29:18 but then so is fso... Oct 23 20:29:43 ah ok :p Oct 23 20:29:51 Ok, interesting to hear so many viewpoints on it all -- and good also to know that not everyone believes that Android will magically make the phone into a usable phone. :) Now let's keep the pressure up on Om to keep working on this. Because note this: Oct 23 20:30:09 THe ONLY improvements we've seen int he past 30 days are the impressive Oct 23 20:30:19 mwester: I believe that in the end OM will need to fix those issues. If they don't, it will be very bad for this whole project. Oct 23 20:30:19 work done by Harald (swisscom), and the Oct 23 20:30:28 SLEEP problem workaround that I found. Oct 23 20:30:36 Other than that, we've nothing but an announcement. Oct 23 20:30:38 mwester: I totaly agree Oct 23 20:30:46 mwester: I agree Oct 23 20:30:50 mwester: OM needs to come forth with some results. Oct 23 20:30:53 And contineud emails telling us that they are making progress on the GTA03 (!!!!)_ Oct 23 20:31:16 mwester: and I don't mean the support for s3c6410... Oct 23 20:31:19 mwester: or qi Oct 23 20:31:33 mwester: Dumb question. What do you suppose OM's business model is? Oct 23 20:31:34 (Which is good stuff, btw - just not what they need to do) Oct 23 20:31:57 how many people are OM employing these days? Oct 23 20:32:09 I noticed a lot of the high-profile hackers they started out with have now left Oct 23 20:32:15 bricode: I could make some smart-a** remark about that, but I'll be completely honest and say that I have no idea what their business model is, and I'm not even sure that they do anymore. Oct 23 20:33:01 df_aldur: :( Yes, one of the danger signs IMO is when people with those sort of reputations int he industry leave. :( Oct 23 20:33:37 High profile hackers tend to have very strong viewpoints, and when those viewpoints diverge, they leave. Oct 23 20:33:47 Don't anyone get me wrong please -- I very much want (and NEED) Om to be successful, and Android needs to be successful too. Oct 23 20:34:10 you NEED om to be successful? Oct 23 20:34:10 mwester: we all understand :) Oct 23 20:34:25 mwester: Well, OM makes their money selling hardware, I'm trying to enable that one of the best ways I know possible: piggyback on a giant. Oct 23 20:34:27 mwester: Me to, Om has to be succesfull. Else I have a $400 hardware brick Oct 23 20:34:34 mwester: your patches/contributions speak for themselves. Oct 23 20:34:43 err, with should be in there. Oct 23 20:34:58 df_aldur: Yes. my toys budget is going to frozen if I don't show the person in charge of finances in my household that at least one fo the three units here can be used as a phone. ;) Oct 23 20:35:07 :) Oct 23 20:35:14 aw, no pandora? Oct 23 20:35:23 Ooh that's cool hardware. Oct 23 20:35:41 mwester: wish it could be a phone hehe Oct 23 20:35:48 But I'm playing with a Treo 650 and FSO at the moment. Oct 23 20:36:05 btw, S3C6410 looks pretty sweet. Oct 23 20:36:37 It has promise, although I personally prefer the OMAP (for power consumption reasons) Oct 23 20:36:46 mwester: buy one of those small nokia phones, fit it in the GTA02 case, fill the empty space with that plastic foam thing and show your wife :p Oct 23 20:36:53 heh Oct 23 20:37:03 I think the S3C6410 has HW floating point, that'll be awesome for multimedia. Oct 23 20:37:42 balrog_: :D Oct 23 20:38:31 I would like a pandora, but I just bought an aspire one and a freerunner in swift succession and I don't think I can justify it on the grounds that I need something between the two :( Oct 23 20:39:26 Well, you another angle on it then... or you need someone to buy one of the two other devices. Oct 23 20:40:05 mwester: it also has some HW-crypto which I think is cool :) Oct 23 20:40:37 naw, I like them both :) Oct 23 20:40:39 I'm not sure what one would use that for on a phone though. Wifi? Oct 23 20:41:13 I suppose that digitally signing SMS messages doesn't make any sense, does it? Oct 23 20:41:14 maybe I haven't reached your level of cynicism yet, but I'm pretty happy to have a phone I can run debian on, even if it doesn't actually work as a phone Oct 23 20:41:14 Wifi, ssl Oct 23 20:41:48 you could probably think of uses for signed SMS Oct 23 20:41:49 df_aldur: what, no zhone love? Oct 23 20:41:56 system administration? Oct 23 20:42:14 df_aldur: Well, cynic or realist... hard to tell... and a sad state of affairs when the difference between the two is so difficult to discern. Oct 23 20:42:37 you don't need hw crypto for encoding sms since you're not trying to send a million SMSes per second :p Oct 23 20:42:44 mwester: there's many many possibilities. Oct 23 20:42:53 it could be useful for cracking passwords maybe :p Oct 23 20:43:00 balrog_: heh Oct 23 20:43:04 gurugentoo: yes, the debian archive for the freerunner includes fso+zhone? Oct 23 20:43:14 * bricode carries rainbow tables in his pocket :) Oct 23 20:43:21 (omap also has hw crypto but i don't know if anybody has made use of it yet) Oct 23 20:43:22 or are you suggesting that zhone *can* function as a real phone Oct 23 20:43:28 balrog_: if you use the phone to acces a vpn e.g. Oct 23 20:43:31 * mwester ignores balrog_ ... as long as he doesn't start spelling works funny. Oct 23 20:43:48 balrog_: oh, that sounds interesting. Oct 23 20:44:06 df_aldur: well I'll admit it's missing a few things at the moment, but I'm happy to use it as my dialer Oct 23 20:44:18 balrog_: do you know if there's some "real" info (=not just info brochures) on that on the net? Oct 23 20:44:27 I don't have a sim in my fr atm Oct 23 20:44:32 when I did, I mostly used qtopia Oct 23 20:45:21 Kensan: on omap hw support? it's in the kernel afaik, it should be present since omap2, i don't know what the standard linux way of accessing hw crypto is but it should be using that Oct 23 20:47:14 balrog_: there would be hw-drivers for that... Oct 23 20:47:26 balrog_: like hifn etc Oct 23 20:48:13 omap2420 has DES3DES, SHA1MD5 (whatever this is), PKA, MG support in hardware Oct 23 20:48:41 balrog_: hm I don't see anything in drivers/crypto ... Oct 23 20:49:04 maybe it's in the -omap tree, lemme look up Oct 23 20:49:19 balrog_: is that on git.kernel.org ? Oct 23 20:49:38 Kensan: yep Oct 23 20:49:41 balrog_: well it's not in crypto/cryptodev Oct 23 20:50:39 there's this: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/tmlind/linux-omap-2.6.git;a=blob;f=drivers/crypto/omap-sha1-md5.c;h=6d7770325f79ce33eefc1ddca5484a73d3bb5e91;hb=HEAD Oct 23 20:51:20 balrog_: ah cool Oct 23 20:52:14 balrog_: I wonder why this has not made it to the crypto-ml ... Oct 23 20:53:27 Kensan: the -omap tree always has many drivers local changes, i think their current focus is to upstream beagleboard support and n800 audio Oct 23 20:53:34 s/drivers// Oct 23 20:53:34 balrog_ meant: Kensan: the -omap tree always has many local changes, i think their current focus is to upstream beagleboard support and n800 audio Oct 23 20:54:06 balrog_: hm ok. Oct 23 20:54:35 balrog_: well it looks fine so they should just submit it to Herbert. Oct 23 20:56:08 * mwester wonders if balrog_ or Kensan work with the n800 at all Oct 23 20:56:36 mwester: I don't have one :( Oct 23 20:57:59 I am very impressed by the N800; I was rather skeptical at first, but despite a few closed drivers, Nokia has done a good job, I think. Oct 23 20:58:08 i don't either, i had an n810 but they took it away from me later :p Oct 23 20:58:24 balrog_: are you following -omap development? Oct 23 20:58:57 mwester: hm I somehow never got all that interested and so I never bought one... Oct 23 20:59:10 I think that maemo set my expectations for what I thought Openmoko was intending to create, and the 2007.x stuff seemed to be going in such a direction... Oct 23 20:59:21 Kensan: i was for some time but i don't read their list much anymore :p all the new patches are currently for hardware i've never seen Oct 23 20:59:24 mwester: besides the fact that I have to many such devices lying around here :) Oct 23 20:59:52 heh. you should see my office Oct 23 20:59:57 balrog_: ah ok. What are you currently following then? pandora seems interesting. Oct 23 21:00:04 _thats_ too many devices laying around Oct 23 21:00:17 lpotter: yeah, but you get paid to do "R&D" ;) Oct 23 21:00:23 I assume Oct 23 21:00:25 * balrog_ was maintaing support for one omap1 based palmtop but can't even charge the device anymore :P Oct 23 21:01:29 lpotter just brought back horrible memories of Mrs Land -- a High School english teacher who would go off on a huge rant everytime someone got lying/laying mixed up... :) Oct 23 21:01:38 Kensan: yep. we are part of "R&D" :) Oct 23 21:02:24 relaxing and drinking? ;) Oct 23 21:03:01 That's on Fridays. Is it Friday in AU yet? Oct 23 21:03:22 mwester: I always mix those up that's why I don't care anymore... Oct 23 21:03:49 She frightened me so much I just try to avoid those words ;) Oct 23 21:03:54 er Oct 23 21:04:09 yes. its friday Oct 23 21:04:11 hmm Oct 23 21:04:30 'lying' sounds right to me in that context Oct 23 21:04:45 possibly I am just poorly educated Oct 23 21:05:01 All I remember was that she (the teacher) would be shouting about chickens, beds, and such... Oct 23 21:05:05 balrog_: and that's the reason you passed along maintainership? *heh* Oct 23 21:05:39 oops late for ameeting - back in a bit Oct 23 21:06:16 she went on about laying chickens? Oct 23 21:10:26 Kensan: it's unmaintained and there are very few users complaining :) Oct 23 21:10:38 so everyone is happy Oct 23 21:11:07 balrog_: haha, fair enough :) Oct 23 21:11:30 balrog_: are you currently maintaining other stuff? Oct 23 21:11:45 balrog_: just being curious Oct 23 21:12:39 Kensan: in kernel land, nope, i was sending some fixes for gta02 only lately Oct 23 21:13:06 well... no so lately even Oct 23 21:13:15 balrog_: ah ic. didn't you start on some mplayer related things? Oct 23 21:13:27 what is the actual wifi chip used in the FR? Oct 23 21:13:27 balrog_: I think it was your blog I stumbled upon the other day... Oct 23 21:14:20 gurugentoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware#WiFi_Module Oct 23 21:14:31 Kensan: i did, but i have no use for it personally Oct 23 21:14:32 mwester: You said we should begin pressuring openmoko? http://onlinedev.blogspot.com/2008/10/is-openmoko-working-on-there-back-to.html Oct 23 21:14:40 Kensan: thanks Oct 23 21:16:25 Jeti: well the nand patches were not from OM, they came from harald who did this on contract work from swisscom... Oct 23 21:17:07 ow I though harald was working for OM Oct 23 21:17:23 Jeti: he quite some time ago. Oct 23 21:17:23 Quickly changed it Oct 23 21:17:42 also :( Oct 23 21:20:56 Jeti: http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2007/11/16/#20071116-leaving_openmoko Oct 23 21:22:48 it's very long ago. There wasn't even an gta02 :o Oct 23 21:24:23 Jeti: is onlinedev your blog? Oct 23 21:24:30 yup Oct 23 21:24:40 I'm mostly dolf1074 on this channel Oct 23 21:25:03 but now I had to boot in xp and there my nick is Jeti Oct 23 21:25:19 Why? Oct 23 21:25:42 Jeti: just being curious :) Oct 23 21:26:05 Jeti: ah ok, I remember your other nickname. Oct 23 21:26:28 Is that a good thing or a bad one :p Oct 23 21:28:04 Jeti: in my eyes I was just stating a fact, so I'd say is neither good nor bad. Oct 23 21:28:26 you're avoiding the question :p Oct 23 21:28:38 no, I actually don't want to know Oct 23 21:28:39 Jeti: good post btw, mwester will be happy :) Oct 23 21:28:50 just fooling you Oct 23 21:29:09 It's the truth Oct 23 21:29:24 hopefully openmoko will learn from it Oct 23 21:29:28 Jeti: sadly it seems like it... Oct 23 21:30:37 Sadly the openmoko developers are all indulged in the work and the community protesting will give them more stress Oct 23 21:30:54 So hopefully they can reorganize their priorities Oct 23 21:31:30 why doesn't my freerunner fly yet? Oct 23 21:31:47 Jeti: after reading the weekly engineering news 41 I thought that's what they had done. Maybe they need some more time... eventhough a lot of time has past since the Freerunners started shipping... Oct 23 21:32:31 true, almost everyone has hoped they would have done that after reading the WE 41 Oct 23 21:32:39 including me Oct 23 21:32:49 I was really positive about the future of om Oct 23 21:33:25 am i the only person who can't helping thinking 'nom nom' whenever someone references om ? Oct 23 21:33:38 It's sad to see that on one side there's so much friction and issues while FSO is clearly coming along... Oct 23 21:34:07 I like FSO and it's a really good direction Oct 23 21:34:16 but they have to fix the lowlevel things first Oct 23 21:34:26 because else the fso will also have lowlevel problems Oct 23 21:34:38 but without the kernel/low-level issues fixed fso can't provide reliable/stable operation... Oct 23 21:34:49 yeah, like you said. Oct 23 21:34:50 FSO is a wonderful base, the otherday I wanted to put a shopping list, just a basic todo on my phone and failed Oct 23 21:35:32 Tig|: use post-its and stick them to the back of your FR ;) Oct 23 21:35:34 yet this was something I had with 2007 Oct 23 21:36:08 cjb_ie: are you in ireland, or using IE? Oct 23 21:36:10 Kensan: is it cash flow that is stopping them hiring openhand again? Oct 23 21:36:11 Tig|: 2 words: Debian, Abiword Oct 23 21:36:15 mattl: the former Oct 23 21:36:28 Jeti: you're writing great stuff in your blog, /me likes it! Oct 23 21:36:30 Tig|: openhand got bought by intel Oct 23 21:36:32 why are you there? Oct 23 21:36:40 Tig|: they work on moblin now. Oct 23 21:36:52 But Yes, I hope that OM will focus - focus - focus.. Oct 23 21:37:04 mattl: family. oh. are you mixing me up with cjb? Oct 23 21:37:08 rhkfin: thanks. It's really great if someone appreciate your work ;) Oct 23 21:37:20 Jeti: yeah, keep it up. Oct 23 21:37:25 cjb_ie: yes. Oct 23 21:37:27 Kensan: yes and, openhand were dropped by om ages ago back in the tail end of 07 with the pust for qtopia Oct 23 21:37:39 I wish they (you, if someone from OM is around) listens the community and feels the disappointement and encouragement of the community Oct 23 21:38:05 mattl: apologies for confusion. i have this nick in too many channels to start changing it though. Oct 23 21:38:16 hola Tig| .... Oct 23 21:38:20 stuff like weekly engineering news, community news and some blogs are very important to help the community.. Oct 23 21:38:25 eek Oct 23 21:38:27 Kensan: That's what I intend to do so. But I have to little time. (I remember meself, I still have to write about the new release of FDOM) Oct 23 21:38:28 Tig|: I didn't understand that decision at the time and now one can say it was a waste of time&effort. that's when they should have realized (for the 2nd time) that they should focus on the basics. Oct 23 21:39:00 Jeti: I'm planning to do the same.. Let's see if I got the time on weekend to give it a try.. Oct 23 21:39:02 Kensan : OM should have focused on the backend and left the front end to OH Oct 23 21:39:11 Tig|: agree.. Oct 23 21:39:32 rhkfin: The mine is already up and running and I'm planning to write about it tomorrow afternoon. ;) Oct 23 21:39:36 Jeti: are you doing fdom? Oct 23 21:39:50 hola opentrinity Oct 23 21:39:51 Jeti: you'll be first ;) Oct 23 21:39:57 I will Oct 23 21:40:03 Maybe I'll try to focus on apps more.. Oct 23 21:40:11 I will start on doing FDom Oct 23 21:40:12 apps available at opkg Oct 23 21:41:09 Tig|, df_aldur helps me to solve my problem do u remember..i ping but i can't opkg upload...was a mtu problem...now works :-) Oct 23 21:41:32 rhkfin: Good idea, because I only target apps that I already have changed or adapted to work better on the freerunner Oct 23 21:42:00 opentrinity: glad to hear you are back on the net :) Oct 23 21:42:01 Jeti: right.. Oct 23 21:42:09 :-) Oct 23 21:42:36 now i'm glad to solve wifi and gps problems ;-) Oct 23 21:42:48 rhkfin: Else there is to much to blog about for one person ;) Oct 23 21:43:06 Jeti: true :) I'd have a lot to blog about if I only had the time. Oct 23 21:43:45 Openmoko has to hire us to fulltime blog :p Oct 23 21:43:55 ye gods no Oct 23 21:44:15 I think I would be bored after a week Oct 23 21:44:15 Jeti: I'm writing http://risto.kurppa.fi/blog (unless you already noticed :) (hmm.. though it's again reaaaaally slow:( Oct 23 21:44:23 How do you set the default boot device to sd card? Oct 23 21:44:28 Is it in the planet? Oct 23 21:44:37 Don't know: blogging means a lot to learn :) Oct 23 21:45:02 Jeti: yes it is Oct 23 21:45:14 That's true, When I'm blogging: I'm learning so many things Oct 23 21:45:38 Writing a good blog post includes a lot of background checks that make you learn new stuff.. But it takes time! Oct 23 21:45:50 rhkfin: Than I read them all ;) Oct 23 21:46:03 It took me around 9 hours or so to write the openmoko community discussion posts.. But I hope it was worth it.. Oct 23 21:46:23 write.. or copy paste.. But still 9 hours :) Oct 23 21:46:47 yes, I can believe there's so much work on that post Oct 23 21:47:27 you first have to find a story about all things, then find the right things to copy (things that represent the person), then you will have to click it togheter Oct 23 21:47:29 in other news, your phone still does not work but now people are thinking about fixing it... Oct 23 21:52:48 Anyway, I hope that the community can benefit from the blog posts.. test applications, test distros, tell what's happening with the development and so on.. I'm not much of a coder so I concider this as my way to support the community.. Oct 23 21:53:16 rhkfin: it's a good way of contributing. Oct 23 21:53:48 Kensan: thanks :) Oct 23 21:57:31 I apologize if this seems like a really silly question but has anyone played the Numpty Physics game that comes with FDOM? Anyone know how to restart a level if you fail? Oct 23 21:57:44 I can't even exit the game without getting an error message. Oct 23 21:58:05 dskippy: i play it all the time, but no i think yu have to quit to restart Oct 23 21:58:10 dskippy: r from the keyboard Oct 23 21:58:29 launch the keyboard: r to reset, n for next level, p for previous. Oct 23 21:58:37 dskippy: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Numptyphysics Oct 23 21:58:38 And there'll be a new release soon AFAIK.. Oct 23 21:58:49 With a new version of the engine Oct 23 21:58:56 And some other improvements Oct 23 21:59:14 rhkfin: Thanks a bunch! Hadn't even thought of that. Oct 23 21:59:33 People are just gushing over my phone now that I downloaded this thing by the way. Oct 23 21:59:37 It's really really cool. Oct 23 22:00:00 dskippy: :) Oct 23 22:00:07 My friends at work and I play with Phun all the time. (similar program, not a goal-orient game though) Oct 23 22:00:16 There might eventually be a landscape version -> bigger screen. Oct 23 22:00:23 That and Duke Nukem 3D Oct 23 22:00:27 Phun is closed source :/ Oct 23 22:00:46 Are there any similar keys to reduce the volume in Duke Nukem 3D actually? Oct 23 22:00:52 It's super loud. Oct 23 22:00:53 * rhkfin would like to try the new FDOM to see the duke3d with transparent buttons.. Oct 23 22:01:02 It seems nice Oct 23 22:01:06 dskippy: I guess not.. I've disabled the sound.. Oct 23 22:01:07 only exit doesn't work anymore Oct 23 22:01:17 Jeti: good & too bad Oct 23 22:01:17 rhkfin: New FDOM is nice. Duke is really cool. Oct 23 22:01:31 * rhkfin wants to upgrade but has to sleep.. Oct 23 22:01:34 If you hit the center of the screen that's exit though. I wish that were not true. Oct 23 22:01:48 I am always accidentally hitting exit when I am trying to shoot. Oct 23 22:02:44 -> zzz Oct 23 22:02:55 dskippy: So it's not the right upper button anymore? Oct 23 22:05:24 Jeti: You mean shoot? No I don't think so. I have to hit the bottom 10% of the screen to shoot. Oct 23 22:05:39 No, exit Oct 23 22:05:49 Normally it was the upper right button Oct 23 22:05:52 Jeti: Well hitting the screen for sure exits. Oct 23 22:06:00 ok Oct 23 22:06:02 Haven't tried hitting the hardware button yet. Oct 23 22:06:11 Me neither Oct 23 22:06:16 Maybe it's an un-caught exception and it's just a bug. Oct 23 22:06:22 can be Oct 23 22:06:23 Seems like a really crazy feature. Oct 23 22:06:33 * df_aldur gets jealous of all these games and installs fdom Oct 23 22:07:36 bye, me also going zzzzz Oct 23 22:07:41 df_aldur: What distro are you running? You should be jealous. FDOM is really cool. Oct 23 22:07:51 Night Jeti. Oct 23 22:07:57 openmoko 3gb? Oct 23 22:08:02 3 G? Oct 23 22:08:17 I'm dual booting qtopia and debian, but I'm bored of qtopia Oct 23 22:08:55 kristian_paul: maybe gta04 Oct 23 22:09:05 df_aldur: Qtopia's okay. It's the nicest as far as just being a phone. Though I find that none of the distros are able to equal the reliablility of my old phone yet... so it's still just a toy for me right now. Oct 23 22:09:14 Thus FDOM is really cool. :) Oct 23 22:09:18 viq: but is avaliable? Oct 23 22:09:20 same here, I've taken my sim card out of it for now Oct 23 22:09:28 viq: for buy Oct 23 22:09:34 kristian_paul: current is gta02 Oct 23 22:09:35 though I might get a payg sim just to allow me to experiment with the phone stuff Oct 23 22:09:56 kristian_paul: no, there are not even details about exact hardware available, nor specific plans. Oct 23 22:10:02 I want to get some time to work on it. Other than speed of loading basic operations being a little annoying there are just a few things I *need* for it to be my phone. Oct 23 22:10:07 viq: gta02 is EDGE? Oct 23 22:10:18 No, GPRS. Oct 23 22:10:25 viq: :-( Oct 23 22:10:27 mmm, time would be nice Oct 23 22:10:34 Like reverse phone number look up to my address book when displaying who sent an SMS Oct 23 22:11:00 so is the phone interface in fdom the same as in om 2008? Oct 23 22:11:18 df_aldur: Yeah it's take from qtopia just like 2008 Oct 23 22:11:25 df_aldur: Ever tried FSO? Oct 23 22:11:40 yes, in the sense that the debian distro includes it Oct 23 22:11:56 how can i replace NAND with NOR uboot ? how can i fully recover NAND from NOR ? Oct 23 22:12:05 zhone is my favorite phone app so far. Still missing some of the necessities that I mentioned earlier but it's simple and also nice and fast. Oct 23 22:12:11 my early attempts at hacking some software together have been on fso since that seems to be the future Oct 23 22:12:12 Responsiveness is really important. Oct 23 22:12:25 agreed Oct 23 22:12:34 I prefer a responsive interface to a flashy one Oct 23 22:13:08 Yeah seems like FSO is the future. Which is nice. I think if I am going to put some time in to the openmoko finally soon, it'll be into basic phone niceness for zhone. Oct 23 22:13:28 do I need to flash the om 2008 kernel for fdom? Oct 23 22:14:36 df_aldur: Yes. Oct 23 22:14:52 I had to come here and ask that a week ago myself :) Oct 23 22:15:02 :) Oct 23 22:15:39 it's not very easy for newbies, took me ages to get my head around the different distros Oct 23 22:16:00 although I noticed someone's improved the distro page on the wiki, it's a lot more comprehensible now Oct 23 22:18:05 Yeah it is a little difficult to figure out. It's really straight forward and simple now that I understand it, of course. Oct 23 22:18:22 And yeah the wiki is a little more understandable. Oct 23 22:19:22 I guess it was a matter of realising that the phone ships with a distro which is basically obsolete, and then having enough information to know what to install next Oct 23 22:19:49 Yeah. Oct 23 22:20:41 and then noticing that it actually works better as a phone than the newer stuff... Oct 23 22:20:52 mmm koolu should sell debug boards. :/ Oct 23 22:21:01 heh Oct 23 22:21:34 2007 didn't work brilliantly for me as a phone Oct 23 22:21:53 I liked the keyboard better than the 2008 one though Oct 23 22:22:11 df_aldur: 2008 keyboard really kind of annoys me. Oct 23 22:22:38 It's annoying to, for example, just hit 'r' in the physics game. Oct 23 22:22:58 I have to hit 'r' then I have to pick the 'r' from the possible results. Oct 23 22:23:29 it's bloody impossible to use with a terminal Oct 23 22:23:41 ah - does fdom have the same one then? Oct 23 22:23:45 or do you get a choice? Oct 23 22:24:13 It'd be nice to have a mode that's just going to send the keys as I type them. Oct 23 22:24:55 I want the keyboard to take up 90% of the screen and be horizontal when I'm typing text messages. Oct 23 22:25:06 Then it could be a heck of a lot bigger. Oct 23 22:25:24 You might need to wait for auto tipping the screen to the side for that functionality to come out. Oct 23 22:25:58 yes, I want landscape mode for my freerunner Oct 23 22:26:25 X doesn't seem to support it yet though - or at least, xrandr cowardly refuses to switch it Oct 23 22:26:49 doesn't *necessarily* need to be automatic, that'd just be an added bonus Oct 23 22:26:55 any udev-gurus around? Oct 23 22:27:08 you have to add a line, it works fine in debian, except it screws up the dpi of fonts Oct 23 22:27:19 ah, cool, got a link? Oct 23 22:27:21 add a line in xorg.conf* Oct 23 22:27:25 vinicius: Yes we should. Oct 23 22:27:45 hmm, just realised I started flashing this image before it finished downloading Oct 23 22:27:51 * df_aldur races dfu against teh internets Oct 23 22:28:05 Has anyone tried qt-embedded 4.4.1? The new qtopia? Oct 23 22:28:12 bricode: :D do it, I want to buy it together with pounch and phones. Oct 23 22:28:20 dskippy: is it available? Oct 23 22:28:26 I was looking for it earlier and couldn't find it Oct 23 22:28:33 I thought it was announced. Oct 23 22:28:41 then I heard people raving about fdom and decided to install that instead Oct 23 22:28:45 it was announced, yes Oct 23 22:28:50 vinicius: For the most part you don't need it unless you're updating the NOR flash, or are doing intense kernel stuff. Oct 23 22:29:12 I want to try the latter. Oct 23 22:29:20 df_aldur: Yeah I think FDOM is worth spending time on. Oct 23 22:29:27 But I do want to try qt-embedded. Oct 23 22:29:35 is it fso based though? Oct 23 22:29:40 Qt-extended actually. Oct 23 22:29:46 QT? No. Oct 23 22:29:50 fdom Oct 23 22:29:52 Neither is FDOM. Oct 23 22:30:16 df_aldur: Yeah I can't find 4.4.1 Oct 23 22:30:18 so isn't it a bit of a dead end too? (albeit one with lotsa cool stuff) Oct 23 22:30:38 The "4.4.1 is released!" link takes me to a download for 4.3.2 Oct 23 22:30:43 What a cruel joke :) Oct 23 22:30:52 I think nokia have EATEN it Oct 23 22:31:17 :_ Oct 23 22:31:18 :) Oct 23 22:31:26 yep, I couldn't even find 4.3.3, which my phone is running Oct 23 22:31:29 er, was running Oct 23 22:31:47 mabye I should have backed it up, given taht it seems to have become a collector's item Oct 23 22:31:51 Oh right, 4.3.3 was the latest. Oct 23 22:31:56 What's with their site? Oct 23 22:32:06 df_aldur: I have it. Oct 23 22:32:17 ah good Oct 23 22:32:19 At home. Oct 23 22:32:26 not that I want it back particularly Oct 23 22:32:27 I'd be happy to send it to you though. Oct 23 22:32:36 but it's good to know that it's not gone forever Oct 23 22:32:38 Well dskippy@ccs.neu.edu if you ever do. Oct 23 22:32:43 cheers Oct 23 22:33:27 dfu is pretty awesome, wish it was a bit faster though Oct 23 22:33:38 df_aldur: You can get the 4.4.1 jffs file from the wiki Oct 23 22:33:52 ah right Oct 23 22:33:58 Not sure about the kernel. Maybe it takes the same kernel at 4.3.2 or 4.3.3? Oct 23 22:34:06 well, I'm going for fdom now anyway Oct 23 22:34:13 I'll play with that for a while and see how it goes Oct 23 22:34:29 Yeah good call. If only to show off physics and duke nukem to your friends. Oct 23 22:34:57 Hey look at me, I'm titling my phone back and forth and shooting! Oct 23 22:35:02 I use the debian install for serious hacking (when I get the chance), so the one in flash is mostly just for fun Oct 23 22:35:12 and for showing off to friends, of course Oct 23 22:35:20 What hacking are you doing? Oct 23 22:35:25 zhone stuff? Oct 23 22:35:33 no, an indepedent ui Oct 23 22:35:37 Ah. Oct 23 22:35:42 but using fso Oct 23 22:35:48 Anything interesting? Oct 23 22:35:49 and gtk Oct 23 22:35:50 Aldur, still having problems? Oct 23 22:35:56 not really, tbh Oct 23 22:36:03 DAVE! Oct 23 22:36:14 SICU Oct 23 22:36:17 I just want a lightweight, fast, functional interface Oct 23 22:36:25 I think I might try qt-e next time I get a chance to flash and then go back to FDOM again. Oct 23 22:36:28 I'm no artist, so I doubt it will look any good Oct 23 22:36:31 Dave: why so quiet? Oct 23 22:36:40 Dave: problems? Oct 23 22:36:46 Dave: thought you weren't here. Oct 23 22:36:52 heh Oct 23 22:36:58 Hahaha Kensan Oct 23 22:37:00 I just want to keep an eye on where qt-e is cause it seems like it might be the first to fix all the little feature lacks that are in all the other phone applications. Oct 23 22:37:01 It was an illusion! Oct 23 22:37:04 i'm guessing Dave's ganghis gang is rioting Oct 23 22:37:12 Then I can just dual boot if it becomes usable. Oct 23 22:37:17 wow ... keyboard mixup Oct 23 22:37:18 * Kensan runs for cover Oct 23 22:37:23 Anyway I should run. Nice talking to you guys. Oct 23 22:37:24 what sort of feature lacks? high-level stuff? Oct 23 22:37:27 * Dave installs orrery on Kensan Oct 23 22:37:35 df_aldur: Yeah, a bunch of little things. Oct 23 22:37:37 ah ok, see you later Oct 23 22:37:49 Most of them have no volume control on the screen when I'm on the phone. Oct 23 22:37:54 * Kensan summons Dave's parole officer Oct 23 22:38:10 aye, that sucks Oct 23 22:38:12 It tells me my SMS are from 6178883270 and not "Sarah" Oct 23 22:38:15 istr 2007 did, though Oct 23 22:38:23 Though the call log gives the names properly. Oct 23 22:38:28 2007 =D Oct 23 22:38:29 Lots of little stuff like that. Oct 23 22:38:31 * Dave incarcerates kensan Oct 23 22:38:40 are the basics ok for you then? Oct 23 22:38:44 And the keyboard leaves a lot to be desired but I can deal with that I suppose. Oct 23 22:38:47 \o\ Openmoko \o/ 2007 /o/ Oct 23 22:38:49 hm this summoning does not work for me. Need to ask raster again how to do it properly. Oct 23 22:38:58 audio quality, staying registered with the cell etc? Oct 23 22:39:01 df_aldur: to the extent that though aren't the basics, yeah I guess. Oct 23 22:39:11 Oh yes. Those basics are pretty good. Oct 23 22:39:17 apt summon mwester Oct 23 22:39:18 apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing mwester's coordinates Oct 23 22:39:22 well, ui stuff is 'trivial' in a way Oct 23 22:39:25 dskippy, is the 4.4.1 image not available here ? http://qtextended.org/modules/mydownloads/ Oct 23 22:39:26 ah nice! Oct 23 22:39:31 although admittedly it's tricky to get it all right in one ui Oct 23 22:39:50 just killed 10 secs off boottime Oct 23 22:39:51 * mwester places his nick on the national "Do Not Call" list. Oct 23 22:39:57 :D Oct 23 22:40:12 haha, apt takes out 20 clean, freerunners and fails miserably at his summoning task Oct 23 22:40:22 :D Oct 23 22:40:25 Dave: bee wewy wewy quiet, mwester's in a meeting Oct 23 22:40:26 hipitihop: That looks pretty good actually. Not sure if it's the new version. Oct 23 22:40:27 bricode: btw, do you happen to know how to track XPressPost shipments? =P Oct 23 22:40:28 Hard to tell. Oct 23 22:40:37 Home many developers does it take to make a call on a freerunner? Oct 23 22:40:43 crap Oct 23 22:40:46 Kensan: congrats =D Oct 23 22:40:46 How many Oct 23 22:40:55 dfu beat teh internets Oct 23 22:41:01 that's 3G for you Oct 23 22:41:08 Nah, meeting is over. I'm looking at graphics cards now. Oct 23 22:41:29 Surely the Radeon 98billion is the best one out there... Oct 23 22:41:33 dskippy, not sure what you mean or what you'r elooking for but afaik it is the latest they released this month Oct 23 22:41:36 Kensean: does that mean you figured out where those mysterious 10 seconds dissapeared to ? Oct 23 22:41:38 * Dave rolls his eyes Oct 23 22:41:53 Yeah, but the machine in question already has the nvidia drivers. Oct 23 22:41:58 sicu: yes, udevd was waiting for usb to settle *heh* Oct 23 22:42:03 oops? Oct 23 22:42:12 Kensan... grr... fucking udev Oct 23 22:42:37 Dave: go easy on the udev ;p Oct 23 22:42:39 ah, 4.4.1 Oct 23 22:42:40 who has stuff plugged into his Freerunner on boot? Oct 23 22:42:43 NO Oct 23 22:42:46 they don't make it obvious Oct 23 22:42:47 Me Oct 23 22:42:56 I do Oct 23 22:42:59 raise hands please Oct 23 22:43:06 * mwester raises his hand. Oct 23 22:43:17 * Dave raises five hands Oct 23 22:43:17 * Kensan ignores mwester Oct 23 22:43:27 * mwester notes that he has multiple Om devices plugged in, and raises the other hand. Oct 23 22:43:30 I have a 3G freerunner, with the help of a usb dongle Oct 23 22:43:42 I have one hand up for each device plugged into my freerunner Oct 23 22:43:48 what now bitch? :p Oct 23 22:43:55 seriously though, I don't believe the average user needs that during init. Oct 23 22:43:57 df_aldur: which device? Oct 23 22:43:59 what if you have two freerunners plugged into each other? Oct 23 22:44:12 mwester: the dongle? huwaei wossname Oct 23 22:44:19 now he screws you over by ignoring all hands and continues to take off the 10 secs from boot-time Oct 23 22:44:26 Dave: I see you have a usb-fixation... maybe you need some therapy. Oct 23 22:44:27 huawei Oct 23 22:44:28 Kensan: agree - as long as it works the other way (the host detects the neo) Oct 23 22:44:38 * Dave plugs Kensan into his freerunner Oct 23 22:44:38 the one t-mobile sell in the uk Oct 23 22:44:42 mwester: yeah sure Oct 23 22:44:47 Cool. Multiple GSMs on one device. :) Oct 23 22:44:54 heh Oct 23 22:45:06 FORM VOLTRON! Oct 23 22:45:15 mwester: I only tell udevd to ignore udev events from usb during init. Oct 23 22:45:27 mwester: ignore-> not wait for Oct 23 22:45:37 Kensan, why do you treat your freerunner this way? Oct 23 22:45:38 Ah - got it. Oct 23 22:45:39 OH SNAP Oct 23 22:45:45 I should go as a Neo Freerunner for halloween! Oct 23 22:45:56 It's so utterly horrific! Oct 23 22:46:02 to modern cellular consumers Oct 23 22:46:03 So they'll still appear, just that (for example) an external USB disk may not be ready until post-boot. Oct 23 22:46:03 Dave: that would be cruel Oct 23 22:46:06 :D Oct 23 22:46:12 I'd just make people cry Oct 23 22:46:13 Dave: because it's not booting fast enough Oct 23 22:46:18 Dude Oct 23 22:46:22 Dave: that's spankworthy Oct 23 22:46:26 my record high Oct 23 22:46:30 seven minute boot time Oct 23 22:46:34 Dave: raster would concurr Oct 23 22:46:46 Excellent. Oct 23 22:46:48 he's asleep :p Oct 23 22:46:51 We should team up Oct 23 22:46:52 Dave: did you have to find a plug first? Oct 23 22:47:01 * Dave rolls his eyes at Kensan Oct 23 22:47:22 mwester: yeah, he's acting all busy but actually... he's out surfing! Oct 23 22:47:24 Kensan, I'm going to strangle you with a usb cable Oct 23 22:47:27 is the freerunner "grandma ready"? Oct 23 22:47:33 hahaha Oct 23 22:47:36 The ultimate test! Oct 23 22:47:58 btw Oct 23 22:48:09 opapo: is that the next windows version? Oct 23 22:48:09 There's a company in the US that's marketing phones specailly designed for grandma. Oct 23 22:48:14 IO does not seem to be issue, it's the cpu Oct 23 22:48:19 Of course Oct 23 22:48:22 :( Oct 23 22:48:26 IO is definitely an issue Oct 23 22:48:30 in more ways than one Oct 23 22:48:44 grandma doesn't want a mobile phone, so the freerunner is fine Oct 23 22:48:49 hah Oct 23 22:48:54 sicu: why did you wake up Dave? *sigh* Oct 23 22:48:57 grandma's probably running debian already ;p Oct 23 22:48:59 :) Oct 23 22:49:05 It was so nice and peacefull and quiet. Oct 23 22:49:12 I am an ubuntu user and like things to just work Oct 23 22:49:15 no, grandma's old school and runs slackware Oct 23 22:49:26 man, if grandma said fuck that to gentoo, I'd give her a high-five. Oct 23 22:49:39 I need a better grandma Oct 23 22:49:47 her comment would of course be, I'm not getting any younger now. Oct 23 22:49:48 :p Oct 23 22:49:53 If I spend the $400 on the freerunner with Qtopia will things just work? Oct 23 22:49:58 df_aldur: eBay? Oct 23 22:50:08 * hipitihop rustles off to get some work done while the residents discuss the new geriatric market potentials Oct 23 22:50:09 opapo: short answer: no Oct 23 22:50:09 craigslist Oct 23 22:50:14 * df_aldur browses Oct 23 22:50:25 :D Oct 23 22:50:29 * sicu claims self 'not-guilty' in the awakening of the beast that is Dave Oct 23 22:50:38 wait, can't I just re-flash my current one? Oct 23 22:50:44 I think the hardware's basically sound Oct 23 22:50:45 Bow before me my loyal minions. Oct 23 22:50:55 aldur, sure. Oct 23 22:51:59 mwester: question about logging: do I need to install a proper syslog to catch all the debug output and error messages from init? It seems that error messages from udev are not picked up by busybox/logread et al. Oct 23 22:52:13 how much configuration will I need to do to get the phone to make/receive calls with Qtopia? Oct 23 22:52:31 opapo: think exherbo Oct 23 22:52:45 exherbo? Oct 23 22:52:54 Dave: http://www.jeffiscool.com/pictures/Foxtrot/foxtrot_bluescreenofdeath.JPG Oct 23 22:53:34 ok boottime is now at 50 secs Oct 23 22:53:43 just kidding btw, I wouldn't know because mine hasn't arrived yet. Oct 23 22:53:45 damnit Oct 23 22:55:31 YES :D Oct 23 22:55:34 sicu++ Oct 23 22:55:41 I remember that :] Oct 23 22:55:49 Mwester - I should go as the WSoD! Oct 23 22:55:50 Kensan: think your summoning worked ^^ Oct 23 22:55:51 :P Oct 23 22:55:56 perhaps that would be unoriginal though Oct 23 22:55:56 haha Oct 23 22:56:05 exherbo looks... odd Oct 23 22:56:07 fuck yeah, I'd make microsoft jealous Oct 23 22:56:18 check it out yo, we made our own colorful screen of death Oct 23 22:56:24 I don't think the world is lacking in linux distros that are non-user-friendly but fun for hackers Oct 23 22:56:27 Bob, you around? Oct 23 22:58:03 sicu: I can neither deny nor approve that I have anything to do with rasters appereance. Oct 23 22:58:25 the more the merrier Oct 23 22:58:29 hehe Oct 23 22:58:39 raster: ping Oct 23 22:59:00 * raster leaps out of a puff of smoke Oct 23 22:59:02 TADA! Oct 23 22:59:19 raster: figured out where the 10 secs went Oct 23 22:59:30 SURPRISE! Oct 23 22:59:33 thanks for your help everyone Oct 23 22:59:42 Raster Surprise Oct 23 22:59:51 Sounds like a meal grandma would make... *cringe* Oct 23 23:00:19 haha, Exherbo got right what OM should've claimed: Oct 23 23:00:20 OK, I Want to Try Exherbo Oct 23 23:00:20 No you don't. Oct 23 23:00:20 Yes I Do Oct 23 23:00:20 OK, maybe you do, but we don't particularly want you to try it because we don't want to deal with you whining when you find that absolutely nothing works. Oct 23 23:00:29 Kensan: You need a debug board to catch the udev output; stdout for things started by init go to the console, not to the kernel log (demsg) or to syslog. Oct 23 23:00:29 gps still crappy :( Oct 23 23:00:45 haha it sounds like OM Oct 23 23:00:52 Kensan: The other possibility is something I experimented with on the NSLU2 -- start init with stdout redirected. Oct 23 23:01:01 Yay nslu2! Oct 23 23:01:06 praise rwhitby Oct 23 23:01:12 :) Oct 23 23:01:38 mwester: right. Well I "need" a debugboard eventualy anyway since I am sure I'll brick my Neo at some point *heh* Oct 23 23:01:46 Kensan: where? Oct 23 23:01:47 :D Oct 23 23:01:48 actually I should go order one right now Oct 23 23:01:58 hi all Oct 23 23:02:01 raster: udevd was waiting for usb-devices to settle *haha* Oct 23 23:02:08 where can i find all the keyboard conf files? Oct 23 23:02:08 ooooh PFFFT! Oct 23 23:02:09 wtf Oct 23 23:02:14 settle pettle Oct 23 23:02:18 my arse Oct 23 23:02:19 I don't think OM would have sold many units with 'It's not that we hate you (unless we do). It's just that we have nothing to offer you, and you have nothing to offer us.' Oct 23 23:02:41 opapo: you won't need to do any configuration to make/receive calls in qtopia Oct 23 23:02:57 right Oct 23 23:03:06 only to hear the other party, or for them to hear you... Oct 23 23:03:09 * Dave rolls his eyes Oct 23 23:03:15 raster: since with the way udev is used (untar /dev/ & trigger udev events) now it was also waiting for usb stuff Oct 23 23:03:36 s/is used/I use/ Oct 23 23:03:36 Kensan meant: raster: since with the way udev I use (untar /dev/ & trigger udev events) now it was also waiting for usb stuff Oct 23 23:03:38 Is the set of devices also minimal? Oct 23 23:03:44 ah crap Oct 23 23:03:47 (so that the triggers are minimized? Oct 23 23:04:00 mwester: the tar gets created on first boot Oct 23 23:04:02 ) <-- oops Oct 23 23:04:13 Dave: well, i said nothing about sound clarity or stability .... just that making/receiving calls works ;p Oct 23 23:04:15 Hmm... ok. Oct 23 23:04:20 :p Oct 23 23:04:21 indeed Oct 23 23:04:36 raster: I can send you the latest bootchart if you want Oct 23 23:04:38 probably minor returns, but if we defer the creation of certain devices we might also speed things up. Oct 23 23:04:44 * lpotter doesnt have any problems making calls with qtextended Oct 23 23:04:53 MWester, the calypso problem perpetually aggravates me. Oct 23 23:05:01 Kensan: sure. Oct 23 23:05:11 Another thing to consider -- do we really need a getty running on a port that nobody can ever use? Oct 23 23:05:17 * raster needs tyo get his git tree fixed Oct 23 23:05:18 haha Oct 23 23:05:27 mwester: no Oct 23 23:06:00 * lpotter calls a tree docter for raster Oct 23 23:06:09 doctor Oct 23 23:06:27 * mwester suspects lpotter of being an english major. Oct 23 23:06:30 raster: yeah and I'll need to put all the changes in patch-form... Oct 23 23:07:27 mwester: no, just have wonky fingers Oct 23 23:07:42 Does Om2008.8 use gsmd + gsm mux stuff? Oct 23 23:07:58 Kensan: aye! u will! Oct 23 23:08:05 or at least allow me to try and do it Oct 23 23:08:09 Sargun: no Oct 23 23:08:13 :D Oct 23 23:08:19 mwester: instead of defering their creation we could simply defer the trigger Oct 23 23:08:31 Hello Sargun. Oct 23 23:08:38 Kensan: er, oops. Yes, that would be better. :) Oct 23 23:08:49 lpotter, so, how about that qtopia-extended stuff? Oct 23 23:09:35 mwester, What does OM2008.8 use? Oct 23 23:09:54 * sicu is wondering if Dave is leaving 2007 for qtx ? Oct 23 23:10:05 It manages that all internally in the qtopia/X application Oct 23 23:10:11 (qte IIRC) Oct 23 23:10:38 What? Oct 23 23:10:39 is there documentation for cli-framework? Oct 23 23:10:44 raster: you've got mail Oct 23 23:10:51 Sicu, I already wiped my qtx freerunner. Oct 23 23:10:53 I need to register with the network so I can go do GPRS junk. Oct 23 23:10:57 like two weeks ago. Oct 23 23:11:09 It failed harder than 2008. Oct 23 23:11:30 raster: yeah, I think the next thing I'll do is put the changes I made so far into patches. Oct 23 23:11:32 What's wrong with the gprs/pppd stuff? Oct 23 23:11:33 Dave: hehe, i know ... you were just asking about qtipia-extended stuff is all ;p Oct 23 23:11:46 Yeah well, it can't hurt to see what recent things have been done Oct 23 23:11:48 if anything at all Oct 23 23:12:29 raster: btw, Harald seems to be looking into boottime too. Oct 23 23:12:42 how do I stop my FSO from suspending? Oct 23 23:13:25 heehee Oct 23 23:14:11 hey people.. how to deactiate the automatically word processing for the keyboard, input methods? Oct 23 23:14:39 Kensan: i've seen the mails - fix for bootchart too :) Oct 23 23:15:03 raster: yeah I applied it and compiled and it looks the same... Oct 23 23:15:21 That's rather disappointing. Oct 23 23:15:36 how to configure the input method's? Oct 23 23:15:38 need to recheck though Oct 23 23:15:53 more numpty please Oct 23 23:16:32 Dave: you have to be patient ... i.e waiting a few weeks would've gotten you WSoD on both wakeup from suspend and unblanking, as opposed to just on wakeup ;p Oct 23 23:17:35 I have fdom :) Oct 23 23:17:39 and damn it's slow to boot Oct 23 23:17:44 raster: hm should probably ask what he is up to. Oct 23 23:17:58 raster: otherwise it's duplication of work all over again Oct 23 23:18:24 raster: he replaced init with upstart I believe Oct 23 23:18:43 * Kensan should respond to that mail Oct 23 23:18:49 What GSM daemons does OM2008.8 have? Oct 23 23:19:37 vinicius: Um, try Canadapost.ca? Oct 23 23:19:52 Sargun: it doesn't use a GSM daemon -- the GSM management is part of the same process that handles the dialer: qpe Oct 23 23:20:27 raster: disk utilization/throughput is not showing up in the chart so I guess there's more to it... Oct 23 23:20:41 Kensan: right now frameworkd is what worries me the most Oct 23 23:20:45 as unlike boot imrpvoements Oct 23 23:20:47 Kensan: Someone looked into bootcharts a very long time ago, and came to the conclusion that in order to profile I/O activity from the JFFS2 filesystem it needs some hooks that are currently lacking,IIRC Oct 23 23:20:48 thats much mroe work Oct 23 23:20:49 :) Oct 23 23:20:56 and its much more pervasive Oct 23 23:21:01 * lpotter wishes he could share some of the amazing things being done for 'qt extended' Oct 23 23:21:06 ie -it is always there eating up ram/resources Oct 23 23:21:31 * mwester wishes he knew what lpotter was up to for the next qt extended release Oct 23 23:21:46 mwester: ah ok Oct 23 23:22:34 * sicu wishes lpotter would stop saying A if he cannot say B ;p Oct 23 23:22:50 it's cruel *cries* Oct 23 23:23:05 it's good marketing ;) Build up demand... Oct 23 23:23:44 lets just say it blows doors off what we have now, and makes qtextended look like 1980's Oct 23 23:23:48 why can't i get an answer here for my questions.. or any response? Oct 23 23:23:56 as long as the built up expectations aren't higher than the results =D Oct 23 23:23:57 * raster wishes he could talk about some ultra cool things happening to EFL for new clients with major phone product lines Oct 23 23:23:58 :) Oct 23 23:24:12 Kensan: looks a lot better Oct 23 23:24:13 yeah Oct 23 23:24:22 I wish they'd hire you, raster Oct 23 23:24:27 Change the future! Oct 23 23:24:30 raster: yeah, that's bad... Oct 23 23:24:45 raster: but it's still 50 secs :( Oct 23 23:24:54 chat less code more ;) Oct 23 23:25:00 raster: well 20 are uboot and kernel which I haven't looked at at all Oct 23 23:25:06 Dave: they have requested my consulting and have several projects they want done. Oct 23 23:25:19 Kensan: oh uboot+kernel Oct 23 23:25:28 i noticed a huge difference in the speed of 2 uboots i have Oct 23 23:25:39 Ah, excellent. Oct 23 23:25:39 1 loads and decomrpesses the kernel MUCH faster than the other Oct 23 23:25:45 its about 5 seconds+ difference Oct 23 23:26:06 I need to do more consulting when I have time. Oct 23 23:26:46 noaXess: if you provide info on distro and keyb. ... you might get answers ;] Oct 23 23:28:04 ok.. then i will giv it one more time.. qtextended 4.4.1, qtopia keyboard and fullscreen input.. i want disable the auto word completion Oct 23 23:28:57 isn't that more a question for trolltech? Oct 23 23:29:31 phobie: ok.. thats an answer.. thanks. Oct 23 23:29:49 but i can't find any information about taht on trolltech's web, forum,... Oct 23 23:30:02 thats why i ask here Oct 23 23:30:03 anyone else notice the developer guide on the wiki is ancient? Oct 23 23:30:04 try to ask Oct 23 23:30:05 I would answer anyways, but I don't know... Oct 23 23:30:11 ancient and wrong Oct 23 23:30:26 noaXess: sorry, i dont know either :/ Oct 23 23:30:56 noaXess if you install fso, we could help Oct 23 23:31:09 fso? Oct 23 23:31:14 raster: there's harald's nand-access patches for uboot Oct 23 23:31:26 raster: plus qi seems to be an order of magnitude faster. Oct 23 23:31:32 yeah Oct 23 23:31:32 noaXess: http://downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/images/ Oct 23 23:31:36 right now tho Oct 23 23:31:42 i'm in the "dont care about uboot" stage Oct 23 23:32:00 ie - replace with qi, problem solved, BUT qi means much harder reflash etc. pain Oct 23 23:32:03 phobie: are there some screenshots, more informations? Oct 23 23:32:12 raster: then kernel can be tweaked too I am sure. The only thing I did was avoid lpj calculation by providing it to the kernel via param. Oct 23 23:32:23 so i'd be doing the "qi for real production consumer device - problem solved. for those reflashing/hacking, live with the uboot pause" Oct 23 23:32:31 noaXess: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO Oct 23 23:32:39 raster: well I guess NOR helps with that. Oct 23 23:32:43 it does Oct 23 23:32:43 phobie: thanks.. Oct 23 23:32:54 why is there no irc channel for qtextended? Oct 23 23:33:01 noaXess: be warned it is unfinished :) Oct 23 23:33:07 noaXess, there is, it's called #qtopia :) Oct 23 23:33:29 phobie: ok.. test is our live ;) Oct 23 23:33:29 noaXess: you should read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions Oct 23 23:33:33 emacsen: thanks Oct 23 23:33:37 raster: I might roll an uboot with harald's patches over the weekend and see how much that helps Oct 23 23:33:49 raster: will start experimenting with qi etc when I get my debugboarg Oct 23 23:34:07 noaXess: FSO works very good bug you will probably be unable to phone and sms. Oct 23 23:34:13 mwester: mtd devices do not write anything to /proc/diskstats Oct 23 23:34:19 it seems Oct 23 23:34:26 s/bug/but/g Oct 23 23:34:26 phobie meant: noaXess: FSO works very good but you will probably be unable to phone and sms. Oct 23 23:34:44 phobie: hm.. why is that like this, why no phone and sms.. cause that is, i think, a main thing for the neo freerunner.. Oct 23 23:35:13 noaXess: currently the d-bus framework is the "main thing" Oct 23 23:35:52 phobie: ok.. Oct 23 23:36:07 phobie, what do you mean d-bus is the main thing? Main thing for what? Oct 23 23:36:09 than.. now.. thansk for answers :) thats good.. Oct 23 23:36:18 good information to work on Oct 23 23:36:39 emacsen: more important than writing a dialer Oct 23 23:36:55 for EFL Oct 23 23:37:26 phobie, yes, and no. A platform that does the basics attracts more people, but yeah dbus is kinda required now a days. It saves so much trouble Oct 23 23:38:24 phobie :) Oct 23 23:38:30 uh oh, hello emacsen :P Oct 23 23:38:41 Dave, what do you hean uh o? Oct 23 23:38:42 emacsen: it was just an answer to noaXess question, why FSO is not usable as a phone Oct 23 23:38:51 ok Oct 23 23:38:53 :p Oct 23 23:39:01 various reasons Oct 23 23:39:16 Dave, oh you know me IRL? ;) Oct 23 23:42:15 noaXess: i guess a dirty way of disabling autocompletion would be to empty the dictionary files: Oct 23 23:42:15 noaXess: /opt/Trolltech/Qtopia/etc/dict/en_US/common.dawg Oct 23 23:42:15 noaXess: /opt/Trolltech/Qtopia/etc/dict/en_US/words.dawg Oct 23 23:42:15 noaXess: /home/root/Applications/Dictionary/local.dawg Oct 23 23:42:15 noaXess: but be careful as i don't run qtopia and therefore don't know if this would work ;] Oct 23 23:43:39 you can always hold down the letter and get the bubble popup. that selects the letter Oct 23 23:44:13 is there no terminal-keyb option in qtopia ? Oct 23 23:44:58 sicu: i will.. be asking in gtopia channel.. Oct 23 23:45:00 thanks Oct 23 23:45:16 k, np Oct 23 23:49:20 there is a qwerty keyboard Oct 23 23:50:26 hi all Oct 23 23:50:58 i will get my freerunner tomorrow but for now i am trying to setup a build and emulation environment on ubuntu hardy Oct 23 23:51:21 what is the best approach for this? openmoko make file? Oct 23 23:52:07 ok mail is out Oct 23 23:52:09 DAMNIT Oct 23 23:52:15 2 o'clock again Oct 23 23:52:48 luckily i have a jetlag, for me its morning, but the local clock tries to convince me its also 0200 Oct 23 23:53:40 raster: did you talk to mickey or any of the FSO guys about your concerns? Oct 23 23:55:15 I have jetlag without flying around Oct 23 23:55:34 Kensan: yes. Oct 23 23:55:51 for now it seems that its unimportant to them Oct 23 23:57:40 raster: bummer Oct 23 23:57:45 anyways, for getting started with building, openmokomake, make setup, make image, is this teh way to go? Oct 23 23:57:57 Kensan: they want to get it done/working Oct 23 23:58:03 worry about size/performance later Oct 23 23:58:21 it seems to me they dont share the size concerns as much Oct 23 23:58:23 Pander: Mokomakefile is a nice way to do it Oct 23 23:58:30 ie think its not that bad Oct 23 23:58:40 i know for a fact fso on my treo650 is unusable Oct 23 23:58:48 raster: mkay Oct 23 23:58:51 well adding fso made it unusable Oct 23 23:59:07 raster: adding fso adds at least 40 secs to boottime Oct 23 23:59:20 raster: which is inacceptable in itself Oct 23 23:59:33 raster: without the runtime cost etc... Oct 23 23:59:43 yeah Oct 23 23:59:50 i know it adds a hefty startup overhead Oct 24 00:00:00 very hefty Oct 24 00:00:10 its worse on the treo650 Oct 24 00:00:10 as u only have 32m ram Oct 24 00:00:14 treo treo treo Oct 24 00:00:20 and so basically disk cache gets thrashed sensless Oct 24 00:00:22 zire zire zire Oct 24 00:00:37 as u basically go down to "no spare ram left" Oct 24 00:00:45 or very very little Oct 24 00:00:58 unfortunately i have to work on a widget set Oct 24 00:01:03 and a window manager Oct 24 00:01:05 and illume Oct 24 00:01:07 and... Oct 24 00:01:12 raster: yes, you have enough on your hands as it is Oct 24 00:01:15 i dont have time to also go rewrite fso :) Oct 24 00:01:22 hah Oct 24 00:01:27 Raster stick to illume please :) Oct 24 00:01:42 raster: and I take the remaining "irc cycles" hehe Oct 24 00:01:44 but imho someone should take it on themselevs to look at least at some of fso Oct 24 00:01:46 a subs3et of it Oct 24 00:01:51 and start writing it in c Oct 24 00:01:56 raster: gsm Oct 24 00:02:00 yes Oct 24 00:02:01 for starters Oct 24 00:02:10 focus on 1 important and doable part Oct 24 00:02:11 well, there Oct 24 00:02:12 raster, what's it written in presently? Oct 24 00:02:17 write at leats all the dbus stubs in c Oct 24 00:02:18 's gsmd2 Oct 24 00:02:20 Dave: python Oct 24 00:02:23 then fill them in from logic in the python code Oct 24 00:02:24 all of it? Oct 24 00:02:36 alphaone: hm have not heard of it, what is it? Oct 24 00:02:38 Dave: except the gsmmuxd Oct 24 00:02:43 okay, makes sense Oct 24 00:02:45 Hey bob :P Oct 24 00:02:49 Dave: but they have some plan to do part of it vala Oct 24 00:02:49 Was looking for you earlier Oct 24 00:02:54 haha Oct 24 00:02:57 what's next, scheme? Oct 24 00:03:23 Kensan: Basically a gsmd written in C using the FSO dbus api Oct 24 00:03:27 man, and I was just getting the hang of python :p Oct 24 00:03:32 or an earlier version thereof Oct 24 00:03:35 hey alphaone :) Oct 24 00:03:38 hey Oct 24 00:03:40 alphaone: oh! who is doing that? Oct 24 00:03:49 alphaone: you are on the fso team right? Oct 24 00:03:56 Kensan: Forgot the name.. Was some company Oct 24 00:03:57 yeah Oct 24 00:04:01 What will be the future of ogsmd? Oct 24 00:04:32 fso is nice with its dbus api Oct 24 00:04:36 and centralising of control Oct 24 00:04:40 yes... Oct 24 00:04:44 except when dbus fails to load Oct 24 00:04:51 but the overhead it brings in is pretty huge :( Oct 24 00:04:57 yep Oct 24 00:05:00 *hiss* Oct 24 00:05:10 alphaone: just to explain myself: I don't want you to have the impression that I think fso is crap etc. It's the "only" thing that progresses steadily and I think it's very cool :) Oct 24 00:05:13 i really expected it to be minimal Oct 24 00:05:15 raster: I know... Oct 24 00:05:35 but i'm learning more and more not to think of minimal and python in the same sentence Oct 24 00:05:36 :) Oct 24 00:05:39 so then that accounts for the mighty overhead of fso? Oct 24 00:05:47 Dave: Future? The future is bright. Always was and always will be :-) Oct 24 00:05:49 blasphemy? :p Oct 24 00:05:54 alphaone: i know u guys are tyrying to get it to "work" Oct 24 00:05:54 alphaone, I hope so :) Oct 24 00:05:59 thats cool Oct 24 00:06:23 alphaone: we will see if/when gsmd2 is released. Oct 24 00:06:24 don't worry raster, you're pretty lean :p Oct 24 00:06:30 gsmd2? Oct 24 00:06:35 but as long as it has the overhead it does - it'll be a "proof of concept prototype" - not a production or close to production thing :( whihc sucks Oct 24 00:06:44 Dave: actually have been ona diet Oct 24 00:06:44 raster: Jan is currently experimenting with integrating vala and python code. Oct 24 00:06:55 sounds kinky Oct 24 00:07:00 raster, how's it working out? :) Oct 24 00:07:03 So we can put bits and pieces in vala (C) Oct 24 00:07:10 Dave: e's source package has gone from 32m to 3.5m in the last 2 days :) Oct 24 00:07:11 alpha, sounds good :) Oct 24 00:07:17 alphaone: good :) Oct 24 00:07:23 raster, uhh... Oct 24 00:07:25 lost about 5-6mb of installed data files Oct 24 00:07:31 makes me wonder what happened to all the weight :p Oct 24 00:07:39 is it in jars in your closet? :p Oct 24 00:07:40 hmm Oct 24 00:07:41 Dave: new defaulr theme Oct 24 00:07:42 http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=gsmd2.git;a=tree Oct 24 00:07:42 :) Oct 24 00:07:47 oh yeah Oct 24 00:07:49 alphaone: let's see. Oct 24 00:07:50 is your git repo fixed yet? Oct 24 00:07:51 http://www.freesmartphone.org/index.php/Implementations/GSMD2 Oct 24 00:07:56 http://wordpress.com/tag/gsmd2/ Oct 24 00:07:56 thanks Bob Oct 24 00:08:03 right, it's even hosted on fso Oct 24 00:08:06 alphaone: i have no idea about vala - but seems some fancy c-code-generator Oct 24 00:08:26 raster: It basically makes working with gobject bearable Oct 24 00:08:32 HAHAHAH Oct 24 00:08:36 oh ok Oct 24 00:08:50 alphaone: i was tempted to stub out an ogsmd in c the other day Oct 24 00:08:59 heh Oct 24 00:08:59 at least imeplement all the dbus calls and signals Oct 24 00:09:05 and just have stub code inside Oct 24 00:09:09 hm finnish company Oct 24 00:09:11 waiting to "fill with logic" Oct 24 00:09:15 raster: especially ogsmd is not that easy Oct 24 00:09:32 alphaone: not that hard. i have libefso sitting here. Oct 24 00:09:40 sure, stub the dbus api is no real problem. the string/AT parsing is a bitch... Oct 24 00:09:42 alphaone: well the api/stubs Oct 24 00:09:51 and yeah Oct 24 00:09:58 that bit is the bit i dont necessarily want Oct 24 00:09:59 but then Oct 24 00:10:08 just write an "at-parser" helper blob of code Oct 24 00:10:11 and it should not be bad Oct 24 00:10:15 spyre: ping Oct 24 00:10:22 eg Oct 24 00:10:36 edje_cc - once i wrote the parser, adding new thnigs to parse and encode is childs play Oct 24 00:10:39 heh Oct 24 00:10:42 entirely trivial Oct 24 00:10:46 * Kensan read in the wiki spyre is gsmd2 dev Oct 24 00:10:52 oh wow Oct 24 00:10:56 but u need to invest in the "makes the parsing trivial for me" code first Oct 24 00:11:08 i never want to hand-parse in c if u have significant parsing to do Oct 24 00:11:10 raster: Do what you must, but the AT command set is not what you would call "intelligent design" Oct 24 00:11:15 c is pain to hand-parse with Oct 24 00:11:17 haha Oct 24 00:11:23 i can understand why people like paerl and pyton Oct 24 00:11:24 it... uhh "works" Oct 24 00:11:31 if u spend a lot of your day parsing mountains of goop Oct 24 00:11:31 raster: good :) Oct 24 00:11:32 :) Oct 24 00:11:39 yep Oct 24 00:11:50 raster: yeah Oct 24 00:12:00 would be cool if we could integrate that closer Oct 24 00:12:09 raster, I used to write parsers in perl Oct 24 00:12:11 alphaone: no time to do anythign at the moment. got my plate full Oct 24 00:12:12 :) Oct 24 00:12:24 keep in python what would be a PITA otherwise, all the rest in C Oct 24 00:12:35 logical Oct 24 00:12:43 keep more of your sanity :) Oct 24 00:12:46 and speed progress along Oct 24 00:13:02 raster: Heh, I know you would be crazy enough to actually do that :-) Oct 24 00:13:24 alphaone: i would. it's just a matter that priorities call for me to do other things. Oct 24 00:13:30 alphaone: maybe i'm just nuts Oct 24 00:13:35 i dont have a problem doing everything in c Oct 24 00:13:54 but i've been pretty much doing everything in c for over a decade Oct 24 00:13:59 raster: yeah, some would consider that condition to need medical treatment Oct 24 00:14:06 ;) Oct 24 00:14:08 i've probably written a million lines of c in that time Oct 24 00:14:16 so a bit of parsing in c isn't much of a hassle Oct 24 00:14:26 but i'm probably not the norm Oct 24 00:14:32 :-) Oct 24 00:14:35 thats why i like to make libs of things i do :) Oct 24 00:14:43 usualy people fail at c Oct 24 00:14:48 export the work to others in an easy-to-use packaged up lib Oct 24 00:14:49 :) Oct 24 00:14:49 raster: mind you: a lot of unis don't teach C etc Oct 24 00:15:01 Kensan: i know Oct 24 00:15:02 it's a shame Oct 24 00:15:03 yeah that's just insane Oct 24 00:15:14 C is fundamental Oct 24 00:15:16 Okay, I got to go to bed now, good night Oct 24 00:15:17 yup Oct 24 00:15:19 raster: there's no 2.0 thingy going on in the C world ;) Oct 24 00:15:23 imho unis should START with assembly Oct 24 00:15:29 a nice asm Oct 24 00:15:30 c is kinda sadening Oct 24 00:15:33 alphaone: night Oct 24 00:15:35 like 68k or arm Oct 24 00:15:37 gotta hit the sack too Oct 24 00:15:41 one has to look out for all the little details Oct 24 00:15:49 else the program blows up Oct 24 00:15:52 BADLY Oct 24 00:15:59 raster: asm is a rough start if you don't know anything about writing code at all. Oct 24 00:16:12 ronny: knowing details becomes instinctive habit after a while Oct 24 00:16:22 ronny: the problem is when u stop paying attention to details Oct 24 00:16:27 u create lazy programmers Oct 24 00:16:37 raster: but there's SUCH a body of code that's C (/C++) that you would think you can't just ignore it. Oct 24 00:16:42 and there's a reason u need 100* the clockrate to do the same thing u used to do Oct 24 00:16:52 because programmers got lazy Oct 24 00:17:02 actually I'd argue that asm is a fairly easy start.. well a nice ASM anyway Oct 24 00:17:16 ok so it takes a lot of effort to get things done Oct 24 00:17:22 but it's easy to understand what's happening Oct 24 00:17:32 since everything is so simple Oct 24 00:17:39 it makes u appreciate the machine Oct 24 00:17:43 and how stuff actually works Oct 24 00:17:46 everythng is a number Oct 24 00:17:53 datatypes are artificial constructs Oct 24 00:17:57 so are objects Oct 24 00:18:02 below all of that goop Oct 24 00:18:04 raster: these days safe languags and fast code dont gap as much as they did - feature-blar and stupid algorithms eat most os the stuff tho Oct 24 00:18:05 is a blob of bytes Oct 24 00:18:06 I think it's a bit too extreme. not everybody is going to do plumbing at the end of the day Oct 24 00:18:19 ronny: i entirely disagree Oct 24 00:18:41 but a good understanding of how a machine actually works is very important. Oct 24 00:18:45 ronny: the headlong run into things like pyton are awful Oct 24 00:18:48 python Oct 24 00:18:55 uh oh, it's ronny Oct 24 00:19:04 i measured about a 300x overhead for python code Oct 24 00:19:06 raster: python is a speed disaster - no point in denying that Oct 24 00:19:12 to do the exact same thgn as c Oct 24 00:19:12 haha Oct 24 00:19:14 thnig Oct 24 00:19:19 raster, I wonder what it'd be for pearl Oct 24 00:19:26 Dave: half of python Oct 24 00:19:29 raster: but its amazing what flowgraph analysis do to code Oct 24 00:19:30 really, wow Oct 24 00:19:30 thats perl5 Oct 24 00:19:33 same for ruby Oct 24 00:19:36 half python's overhead Oct 24 00:19:37 :) Oct 24 00:19:39 good stuff Oct 24 00:19:47 I'm not as guilty at least :) Oct 24 00:19:53 java in "bytecode interpet mode" is about 1/20th the overhead of python Oct 24 00:20:01 damn Oct 24 00:20:02 didnt test jit Oct 24 00:20:32 Is there some comparison chart available? Oct 24 00:20:33 but i think its sad that u ask a programmer "so how much ram does every object u create use" Oct 24 00:20:37 adn they cant give u an answer Oct 24 00:20:39 not even approximate Oct 24 00:20:41 raster: if you take a subset of python you can write python code, and optimize enough crap out of it to be as fast as good c Oct 24 00:20:42 raster: well but if you dig OO and if you dont want your app to blow itself up and are not the C wizzard you should opt for something different than C. Oct 24 00:20:46 right Oct 24 00:20:50 so they go create 2899 of them Oct 24 00:20:55 hahaha Oct 24 00:20:56 because to them its just a single thing Oct 24 00:20:59 1 object Oct 24 00:21:03 * Dave rolls his eyes Oct 24 00:21:12 they dont know the object uses up 4kb of ram... each Oct 24 00:21:15 is this why stuff sucks? Oct 24 00:21:15 for example Oct 24 00:21:17 haha Oct 24 00:21:24 hooray, memory Oct 24 00:21:37 and so, ten thousand objects later... Oct 24 00:21:38 :) Oct 24 00:21:46 raster: all languages server their purpose so it's important to know which one to use for a specific task Oct 24 00:21:50 Why is all my memory disappearing? Oct 24 00:21:59 raster: btw, for anything thats gobject based i'd opt for vala over c any time Oct 24 00:22:01 except for maybe brainfuck etc Oct 24 00:22:02 Kensan, generally, yes. Oct 24 00:22:07 hah bf Oct 24 00:22:14 ronny: i dont know vala - so can't comment :) Oct 24 00:22:20 (writing gobject + refcounting + ctap + omg is just waste of programmer time) Oct 24 00:22:20 but to me it just looks like tis still c Oct 24 00:22:23 Yes, ronny, we know your preferences. :) Oct 24 00:22:24 god "%*/&% Oct 24 00:22:29 but a bit of a code-generator from templates Oct 24 00:22:29 bed now Oct 24 00:22:35 so basically u write c but "templated c" Oct 24 00:22:42 raster: vala is basicaly c# syntax put on gobject Oct 24 00:22:44 with vala filling in the repetitive goop for you Oct 24 00:22:45 night all Oct 24 00:22:59 Goodnight, Mr. Ken. Oct 24 00:23:05 very usefull for keeping much of gobject stupid outa the code Oct 24 00:23:16 and its api/abi compatible to any other c stuff Oct 24 00:23:28 that's hot Oct 24 00:23:35 thatys all cool Oct 24 00:23:42 :) Oct 24 00:23:43 i have considered doing such a thing myself before Oct 24 00:23:46 just to remove the footwork Oct 24 00:23:48 defmacro Oct 24 00:23:51 and make a "better cpp" Oct 24 00:23:51 you should check it out sometime, raster Oct 24 00:23:52 basically Oct 24 00:23:57 or even use m4 insetad of cpp Oct 24 00:23:58 etc. Oct 24 00:24:00 in whatever year you'll have the time :) Oct 24 00:24:02 m4 hurts :-\ Oct 24 00:24:07 hmm, m4 needs to die Oct 24 00:24:16 ie basically a c code generator that made a lot of painful stuff go away Oct 24 00:24:24 yup yup Oct 24 00:24:34 mmm... hs Oct 24 00:24:58 hmm, i dislike c generators, i want to generate llvm asts and throw optimizers at it before generating native code Oct 24 00:25:08 but i have tended to solve it in just better api's myself :) Oct 24 00:25:24 well, you are a god after all, raster :) Oct 24 00:25:35 nah Oct 24 00:25:39 i'm just a c-nut Oct 24 00:25:47 and overly worked :) Oct 24 00:25:49 it's my one tool to rule them all Oct 24 00:25:53 heh Oct 24 00:25:55 i tihnk c is just wrong as middle betwen a higher language and the machine Oct 24 00:25:56 Excellent. Oct 24 00:27:41 ronny: its not as nice as direct to asm Oct 24 00:27:42 ronny: youd rather code in asm? Oct 24 00:27:49 but it means u are instantly cross-platform Oct 24 00:27:50 portable Oct 24 00:28:01 and its a lot easier to generate than asm per platform Oct 24 00:28:04 raster: i'd prefer llvm for that Oct 24 00:28:43 it's also something i'm intimately familiar with... so i know i wont be struggling with it when working on problems higher up in the code-generation :) Oct 24 00:28:50 ie i can look at the c output and just see Oct 24 00:28:53 "man.. thats wrong!" Oct 24 00:28:59 without much thught Oct 24 00:28:59 :) Oct 24 00:29:38 ronny: so you'd rather code some abstract asm that gets compiled to bytecode that gets compiled to machine-specific asm? Oct 24 00:29:42 yeah, but llvm has more neat code optimizers that are damn usefull and damn good Oct 24 00:29:50 or what would be a better "middle" than c? Oct 24 00:30:22 mpr: llvm is a complete architecture for compilers and optimizers, so its just more usefull for getting speedy things Oct 24 00:30:29 llvm isn't a language Oct 24 00:30:45 i'll stick to c as an intermediate :) Oct 24 00:30:46 of course it isnt ... Oct 24 00:30:51 devil i know Oct 24 00:31:00 mpr: he means as middle between some high level language and the machine Oct 24 00:31:03 but - i'll never have time to do such a thing anyway Oct 24 00:31:06 given my todo list... Oct 24 00:31:33 bobofdoom: yeah, but you have to write the code in some language yourself :) Oct 24 00:31:34 raster: with c you kill tonns of possibilities to optimize cause of the free memory-model tho Oct 24 00:31:50 ? Oct 24 00:32:01 free memory model? Oct 24 00:32:05 u mean manual memory management Oct 24 00:32:07 as oppsoed to gc's Oct 24 00:32:09 ? Oct 24 00:32:17 so I take it ronny would like to write everything in a high-level language and then twist the bytecode in llvm until it's fast enough? Oct 24 00:32:20 in c everything is raw memory, so thats the limit for inferencing optimazions Oct 24 00:32:23 Raster, if I'm ever in town can I take you out and discuss designs? :) Oct 24 00:32:29 oooh Oct 24 00:32:31 that Oct 24 00:32:34 i like that model Oct 24 00:32:38 its the most fun bit of it Oct 24 00:32:39 :) Oct 24 00:32:40 ie you can dereferebce arbitrary pointers Oct 24 00:32:47 so the compiler can make less assumptions Oct 24 00:32:52 Dave: sure. :) Oct 24 00:32:56 Cool Oct 24 00:33:02 BobOfDoom: yup yup. Oct 24 00:33:20 I agree about it being fun though :p Oct 24 00:33:28 raster: its a nice tool for system level, but at app-level it screws with optimizers Oct 24 00:33:37 it's kind of naughty Oct 24 00:33:57 the optimizers can't do anything that you can't do yourself with c :P Oct 24 00:34:07 it's just a question of effort Oct 24 00:34:08 mpr: wrong Oct 24 00:34:15 Yup - optimize the important parts *youself*. Oct 24 00:34:58 well, and just hit the first issue of that - for each cpu you will have to use a different way for the best optimazion Oct 24 00:35:05 man Oct 24 00:35:15 and high-level languages can make it easy to get prototype-style stuff done fast, but then when you get the task to "make it fast and production-ready" it's often more effort to optimize the high-level prototype than to rewrite in c Oct 24 00:35:16 1920x1200 +1600x1200 dual head just isnt cutting it Oct 24 00:35:20 cause stuff like caches and pipelines are different Oct 24 00:35:20 i'm out of screen space for my code Oct 24 00:35:22 even at 6x10 Oct 24 00:35:36 i may have to invest in some 30" action Oct 24 00:35:40 and at that point you'd have been better off if you'd just written the prototype in C in the first place :) Oct 24 00:36:21 mpr: just go and optimize code for sse3, altivec, mmx and something else, and then tell me that shit is easy in c Oct 24 00:36:47 embedded doesn't do floating-point :) Oct 24 00:36:53 most humans will never be even close to beating compilers at that Oct 24 00:37:01 so vector units are kind of a moot point Oct 24 00:37:27 ok, unfit example Oct 24 00:38:10 so opzimize for 7 different embedded cpus, all having idfferent cache sizes and instruction sets, and of course, the code must have optimal speed at all of the Oct 24 00:38:35 in integer world that's actually not that big a problem Oct 24 00:38:44 there's arm and there's x86 Oct 24 00:38:52 ronny: actually - mmx/sse/sse2/3 is generally not suefule xcept when doing specific things Oct 24 00:38:59 and in that case - it's not too hard. if u have macros Oct 24 00:39:04 :) Oct 24 00:39:24 ronny: and... my mmx/sse etc. beat the compiler. hands down :) Oct 24 00:39:30 i will agree Oct 24 00:39:32 and i'd say it's easier to write c that's fast on arm and on x86 than it's to optimize a high-level language to run fast on those :) Oct 24 00:39:41 i have tried my hand at beating the compiler in arm asm Oct 24 00:39:45 the compiler won Oct 24 00:39:46 just. Oct 24 00:39:56 well actually no Oct 24 00:39:59 it was a stalemate Oct 24 00:40:03 come thnk of it Oct 24 00:40:10 i had my regular c algorithm Oct 24 00:40:14 then i hand-wrote some arm asm Oct 24 00:40:22 then wetn "how the fuck will i inline this" Oct 24 00:40:29 as i didnt know how gas syntax varied from arm Oct 24 00:40:40 so... i just went to see what gas syntax was like Oct 24 00:40:56 lucky for me i wrote the arm asm and put comments in c on the right Oct 24 00:41:02 so for shits and giggles i reversed it Oct 24 00:41:10 put c on the left and arm comments on the right after the // Oct 24 00:41:11 bingo Oct 24 00:41:23 the c produced precisly 1 for 1 the arm asm on the right Oct 24 00:41:31 but my original c code still beat it Oct 24 00:41:32 :( Oct 24 00:42:28 compilers are just MUCH faster at combining those things, they are just DAMN hard to beat Oct 24 00:42:57 yeah, c-compilers are good :) Oct 24 00:43:13 high-level-language compilers/interpreters not so much. :) Oct 24 00:43:25 vala is kinda ok Oct 24 00:44:01 as its bascially just a tool to kill the gobject c stupid Oct 24 00:44:28 hah Oct 24 00:44:35 whee Oct 24 00:45:41 ronny: and that salways good Oct 24 00:46:13 also the code is much more easy to handle - it handles refcounting and pointer checking Oct 24 00:46:41 thats nice Oct 24 00:47:08 in c you still mostly know the asm that will get generated, in e.g. python it's kinda impossible to know what the running code will eventually look like and what python-gc's etc. will run at which points Oct 24 00:47:13 and it seems to support some fallbacks to pointers and stuff , but i dont understand that good enough Oct 24 00:47:41 so trying to optimize python code if it isn't fast enough is kind of impossible Oct 24 00:47:56 or at least much harder than just rewriting the performance-critical parts in c Oct 24 00:48:24 mpr: the most sane python-optimazion currently is using better algortihms Oct 24 00:48:28 or just use a nice abstraction lib Oct 24 00:48:39 to do datatypoe and what not handling for u in c Oct 24 00:48:40 eg glib Oct 24 00:48:56 and then just wrap the ugly bits in an easy to use api Oct 24 00:49:05 vala ftw ;P Oct 24 00:49:11 then c is just he same as python Oct 24 00:49:14 glue Oct 24 00:49:14 :) Oct 24 00:49:17 :D Oct 24 00:49:18 eh no Oct 24 00:49:23 ronny: yeah, but what do you do when the algorithms are fine and it's still not fast/small enough?-) Oct 24 00:49:46 mpr: fire up psyco Oct 24 00:50:33 the thing is, python gets damn fast if you just use it as glue betwen all the c parts Oct 24 00:50:52 that gets really hard to debug Oct 24 00:51:03 yeah Oct 24 00:51:05 as u are chasing bugs between python and bindings and core c doe that it calls Oct 24 00:51:12 "so where's the problem?" Oct 24 00:51:12 "Psyco currently uses a lot of memory. It only runs on Intel 386-compatible processors" Oct 24 00:51:18 that is ugly stuff :( Oct 24 00:51:51 even if you're only using it as glue code the python runtime stuff hogs up memory etc. Oct 24 00:52:00 trashes caches, etcetc Oct 24 00:52:05 a lot of python debugging i had to do at om made me sit and go "why don't you just sue c - the code will be just a simple, and debugging is much easer as all i do it valgrind or gdb it. boom." Oct 24 00:52:41 raster: fso stuff making pain? Oct 24 00:52:53 im not exactly happy with it Oct 24 00:54:56 raster - eah Oct 24 00:54:57 yeah Oct 24 00:55:00 that's been my position, anyway Oct 24 00:55:08 ronny: no- that was asu with exposure. Oct 24 00:55:16 oh god Oct 24 00:55:18 no Oct 24 00:55:22 basically exposure kept wanting to do things that the python bindings didnt export from the c api Oct 24 00:55:38 and in the end the exposure code was just as complex (or somple) as the same code done in c Oct 24 00:56:02 also toook much longer to create/write that the c version would have Oct 24 00:56:02 :) Oct 24 00:56:21 fso is fine - except for one thing Oct 24 00:56:25 well 2 thnigs Oct 24 00:56:29 zhone - but thats a test app - fine Oct 24 00:56:31 and frameworkd Oct 24 00:56:34 thats my beef. Oct 24 00:56:37 as Kensan said Oct 24 00:56:50 it adds 40 seconds to boot just to have frasmework d installed and start Oct 24 00:57:00 it chomps through 7mb of non-pagable ram Oct 24 00:57:13 (not including shared pages) just to come up with no data and do nothing but idle Oct 24 00:57:21 and that is my problem Oct 24 00:57:30 on my treo650 it's not a sane thnig. :( Oct 24 00:57:52 and on the Fr it just is reducing ram left for apps and slowing startup Oct 24 00:57:52 :( Oct 24 00:57:58 it'd be nice to fix that Oct 24 00:58:17 i know fso is in development - so will ned to wait and see Oct 24 01:01:52 aww Oct 24 01:02:12 I need to get more sd cards for my zires Oct 24 01:02:24 so I can get my gang up to speed ;) Oct 24 01:04:26 you scare me, Dave Oct 24 01:04:43 oh man.,.. Oct 24 01:04:44 this... Oct 24 01:04:45 is.... Oct 24 01:04:48 AWESOME Oct 24 01:05:13 raster: ? Oct 24 01:05:27 A SOM Oct 24 01:05:37 what man Oct 24 01:05:39 i love it when a plan.. just comes together Oct 24 01:06:20 like u make plans Oct 24 01:06:28 and then just build away at the building blocks Oct 24 01:06:29 and bitsz Oct 24 01:06:33 then.. u take the bits Oct 24 01:06:35 ah Oct 24 01:06:39 plug themtogether with the right glue Oct 24 01:06:41 and presto! Oct 24 01:06:44 and it just wroks Oct 24 01:06:45 :) Oct 24 01:06:47 it works as u expected Oct 24 01:06:49 perfectly Oct 24 01:07:08 do you want to make us curious? Oct 24 01:07:08 yup Oct 24 01:07:16 just elementary Oct 24 01:07:23 just quickly implemented my "anchorview" widget Oct 24 01:07:24 i've never seen that happen :p Oct 24 01:07:28 basically u put in markup text Oct 24 01:07:30 with links Oct 24 01:07:50 linkblahblah whateverline 2 Oct 24 01:07:51 etc. Oct 24 01:08:02 click on the linkj Oct 24 01:08:11 beautiful hoveer box widget pops up Oct 24 01:08:19 option items slide out smoothly from it Oct 24 01:08:30 just test itmes right now Oct 24 01:08:46 You should vlog Oct 24 01:08:49 i need to make the "fill in the hover" a callback Oct 24 01:09:00 FRUITION! Oct 24 01:09:04 Hallo balrog Oct 24 01:09:10 so the user can fill in the optiosn based on the link that was pressed Oct 24 01:09:18 but the masin poiint is Oct 24 01:09:32 i'm buildign towards all the toolkit items i need to make my sms editor/viewer Oct 24 01:09:42 for view i need markup to hilight pone numebrs Oct 24 01:09:45 AWESOME Oct 24 01:09:53 I've been looking forward to that raster :) Oct 24 01:09:59 and names - if they match a phone number "Regex" or match some name entry in your phonebook Oct 24 01:09:59 eg Oct 24 01:10:00 if it's as smooth as you say... Oct 24 01:10:03 get an sms that says Oct 24 01:10:06 "call dave" Oct 24 01:10:07 SEND ME AN SMS Oct 24 01:10:09 dave will be a link Oct 24 01:10:11 click it Oct 24 01:10:12 :D Oct 24 01:10:16 Yes, send me a message! Oct 24 01:10:18 zash: no need to put IN the sms Oct 24 01:10:20 just say Oct 24 01:10:30 Raster please tell me you'll be using sane timestamps for everything Oct 24 01:10:32 sms me: +46289035 Oct 24 01:10:47 the end code shoudl se +748394 (some set of numbers) Oct 24 01:10:48 but, tel: :/ Oct 24 01:10:54 and go "ooh - phone numbr... make it linkable" Oct 24 01:11:00 :D Oct 24 01:11:04 yeah, what was it Oct 24 01:11:09 qtx seems to have done that too ,raster Oct 24 01:11:14 yeah Oct 24 01:11:15 i know Oct 24 01:11:17 but somewhat poorly Oct 24 01:11:19 but min;'es sexier Oct 24 01:11:22 yeah :D Oct 24 01:11:22 I bet Oct 24 01:11:28 iphone and skype .. does that Oct 24 01:11:33 i know Oct 24 01:11:34 but who uses those? Oct 24 01:11:35 nothing new Oct 24 01:11:35 :D Oct 24 01:11:40 but it just is so clean Oct 24 01:11:45 so sexy? Oct 24 01:11:54 like raster's work usually Oct 24 01:11:55 :) Oct 24 01:11:59 the whole anchorview widget.. in c (that awfulyl hard language where u have to do everything so manually) is 109 lines of c Oct 24 01:12:06 i can pump out widgets in no time flat Oct 24 01:12:10 slick Oct 24 01:12:11 as they are so nuce and simple Oct 24 01:12:13 master raster Oct 24 01:12:48 thats just the nicest bit Oct 24 01:12:58 the layers underneath that make it so easy... Oct 24 01:13:04 and the whole plan just comes together Oct 24 01:13:21 Eeeeeeeeeexcellent >:) Oct 24 01:13:30 text entry works Oct 24 01:13:38 tho i havent put in support for auto-requesting keyboard Oct 24 01:13:40 yet Oct 24 01:14:19 I hope your handling of message character limit restrictions is not as shitty in the other distros Oct 24 01:14:38 oh and I hope it interprets \r\n correctly too :p Oct 24 01:16:39 the entry widget only groks markyup Oct 24 01:16:41 markup Oct 24 01:16:50 so u need to convert fropm the inptu encoding to markup Oct 24 01:17:00 okay Oct 24 01:17:08 ie from whatever encoding to utf8 + convert ]n and \r\n to
Oct 24 01:17:10 etc. etc. Oct 24 01:17:26 yeah, I got that Oct 24 01:17:28 thats not part of the widget set itself (right now) Oct 24 01:17:31 the app Oct 24 01:17:31 :) Oct 24 01:17:36 right now i'ts all about the widgets Oct 24 01:17:39 get that right Oct 24 01:17:47 so how will you, if at all, deal with message length restrictions in the app itself? Oct 24 01:18:05 when editing? Oct 24 01:18:18 yes Oct 24 01:18:21 don't Oct 24 01:18:25 you don't? Oct 24 01:18:27 allow any length Oct 24 01:18:30 AS u type Oct 24 01:18:30 :) Oct 24 01:18:36 cool Oct 24 01:18:42 display how long the sms will be in # of sms's Oct 24 01:18:48 do what a lot of phones do Oct 24 01:18:52 send multiple sms's if its long Oct 24 01:19:04 simply let u know how many u'll be sending Oct 24 01:19:13 can als display "how many chars left" too Oct 24 01:19:15 etc. Oct 24 01:19:26 just requires that on entry changed u convert to sms format/encoding Oct 24 01:19:28 and check its size Oct 24 01:20:27 :D Oct 24 01:20:36 yeah, also knowing what the provider length limit is Oct 24 01:20:37 ~_~ Oct 24 01:20:38 STOP DOING THAT! Oct 24 01:20:39 fucking stupid sms Oct 24 01:20:49 its 160bytes Oct 24 01:20:56 not always Oct 24 01:20:58 140 bytes? Oct 24 01:21:01 when? Oct 24 01:21:09 160 7bit chars Oct 24 01:21:12 everywhere i've seen its 160 Oct 24 01:21:17 one of my carriers is 160 the other is 100 Oct 24 01:21:23 so yeah Oct 24 01:21:28 it's dumb Oct 24 01:21:33 hmm Oct 24 01:21:39 and pisses me off Oct 24 01:21:40 strange Oct 24 01:21:43 i klnow that it may be 160 bytes Oct 24 01:21:45 but not 160chars Oct 24 01:21:48 depending on encoding Oct 24 01:21:56 maybe Oct 24 01:22:06 and simply encoding determines it Oct 24 01:22:11 oh well Oct 24 01:22:13 Dave: what do "normal" phones do with it? Oct 24 01:22:13 :( Oct 24 01:22:16 either way Oct 24 01:22:18 its a magic number Oct 24 01:22:23 "up to N bytes" Oct 24 01:22:23 Bob, do with what? Oct 24 01:22:29 do they notice the 100 char limit? Oct 24 01:22:35 you mean, observe it? Oct 24 01:22:39 yes Oct 24 01:22:40 Yep Oct 24 01:22:48 it won't let you type more than that in the interface under their UI Oct 24 01:23:00 pretty stupid, huh? Oct 24 01:23:04 then again it's not an iphone Oct 24 01:23:06 but still Oct 24 01:23:11 also, raster is totally right Oct 24 01:23:22 weird... I don't think I've seen any GSM messages that set the limit, but I haven't looked for that specifically Oct 24 01:23:35 that would explain why sending sms on my freerunner, I was limited by encoded size? Oct 24 01:23:46 afaik, it is 160 7bit chars == 140 bytes Oct 24 01:23:47 bob, oh Oct 24 01:24:05 I remember sending sms on 2007 and some were shorter than others that sent but they wouldn't send Oct 24 01:24:11 but if I removed certain chars it sent Oct 24 01:24:18 maybe it was just the shittiness of the app, I don't know :) Oct 24 01:24:24 I never bothered to investigate it further. Oct 24 01:25:15 also if I tried sending too many carriage returns it would fail, as I recall :D Oct 24 01:25:25 fun Oct 24 01:25:56 oh, raster, I was going to ask you. suspended, how long does your treo last on a single charge, have you bothered to even check? Oct 24 01:26:27 Dave: in palm os or linux? Oct 24 01:26:29 I unplugged one of my zires a week ago, and so far have been quite impressed :) Oct 24 01:26:34 bob, linux :) Oct 24 01:26:42 bob, I'm currently using your kernel :) Oct 24 01:26:44 aaagess with phone off Oct 24 01:26:48 oh Oct 24 01:26:49 wait linux Oct 24 01:26:51 yeah, so I've seen Oct 24 01:26:52 yeah Oct 24 01:27:34 treo is probably worse than the zire in linux Oct 24 01:27:39 since the PM is more complex Oct 24 01:27:45 and we don't currently do anything special with it Oct 24 01:27:46 so far it tells me it has ~160m left after being unplugged for six days or so Oct 24 01:27:51 I'd say that's rather impressive Oct 24 01:28:15 but yeah, the hardware can do a rather good job of it Oct 24 01:28:33 Yes! Oct 24 01:28:38 And that's right where it belongs! :P Oct 24 01:28:51 in the hardware! Oct 24 01:29:05 Opie is cute Oct 24 01:29:14 though I'd rather use illume... Oct 24 01:29:18 though maybe I'm just biased Oct 24 01:30:02 so wheres rasters downloads at? Oct 24 01:30:36 slaxxin: downloads of what? rootfs? Oct 24 01:31:27 yes Oct 24 01:31:28 slaxxin: http://download.enlightenment.org/misc/Illume/ Oct 24 01:34:46 34 megs:) Oct 24 01:38:10 can someone explain how to use the fdomizer script:)? Oct 24 01:41:33 I am happy to see illume autobuilds every night! Oct 24 01:41:51 s/am happy/hope/ Oct 24 01:41:51 phobie meant: I hope to see illume autobuilds every night! Oct 24 01:42:04 :D Oct 24 01:42:16 if I make a z build I'll throw it at bob Oct 24 01:42:45 what am i about to see dave Oct 24 01:43:04 I don't know, how functional are your optic nerves? Oct 24 01:43:15 functining Oct 24 01:43:29 somewhat Oct 24 01:44:39 it looks more like an os booting Oct 24 01:45:15 what no green boot polishing cloth Oct 24 01:45:27 yay Oct 24 01:45:32 raster Oct 24 01:46:04 its too cool an i havent got past the boot splash yet Oct 24 01:47:21 cool seconds Oct 24 01:47:21 heheheh Oct 24 01:47:23 :) Oct 24 01:48:25 great keyboard Oct 24 01:49:26 :) Oct 24 01:49:33 e+illume.. closer to how it should be Oct 24 01:50:09 so...is there an image I can play with? this sounds cool Oct 24 01:50:32 fdomizer ... Oct 24 01:50:57 yes Oct 24 01:51:01 thats half the point Oct 24 01:51:15 i need to update the builds though Oct 24 01:51:26 (again!) Oct 24 01:51:29 hehe Oct 24 01:51:38 but first - need to get past this blob of development good Oct 24 01:52:35 YES Oct 24 01:52:41 goop Oct 24 01:53:00 by all means take your time, I like what I've seen so far Oct 24 01:54:35 need to work on widgets atm Oct 24 01:54:56 e is also doing lots of changing in svn with eina being merged in. Oct 24 01:56:52 :) Oct 24 02:00:17 can i add tango an a few other things with no problem? Oct 24 02:01:19 tango theme? Oct 24 02:02:07 gps Oct 24 02:02:52 oooh Oct 24 02:02:54 probably Oct 24 02:02:58 i see no reason why not Oct 24 02:03:01 or other programs? Oct 24 02:03:42 it's a normal linux system correct? most anything that compiles should work Oct 24 02:04:04 animated battery Oct 24 02:04:08 yes Oct 24 02:04:10 normal Oct 24 02:04:28 slaxxin: u mean the + that blinks when chargiing? Oct 24 02:04:34 yes Oct 24 02:04:45 normal stuff from e17's desktop theme Oct 24 02:04:46 :) Oct 24 02:05:59 I've read a good bit about e and I'm really starting to like it, it makes so much sense Oct 24 02:06:34 meh, what's wrong with eina now :/ Oct 24 02:06:34 U eina/Makefile.am Oct 24 02:06:34 svn: Failed to add file 'eina/eina-0.pc.in': object of the same name already exists Oct 24 02:06:57 that eina girl is causing me trouble again :p Oct 24 02:08:27 how would you pronounce that? eye-nuh? Oct 24 02:09:40 gurugentoo: we try to do things "right" in e land.. often Oct 24 02:09:53 just have been busy building countless layers of libs and utils Oct 24 02:10:08 and the wm has mostly languished in favor of pushing the libs under it Oct 24 02:10:18 but i've gone back to look into the wm recently Oct 24 02:10:51 raster: ya, why write the wm when it might be changing in the near future Oct 24 02:11:28 well its only N units of time Oct 24 02:11:31 available Oct 24 02:11:34 spend it on the underlying infra Oct 24 02:11:37 or on the app on top Oct 24 02:11:44 the app on top has driven much of the arly infra Oct 24 02:11:49 but other things have been pulling @ the infra Oct 24 02:11:50 * mwester notes that too many levels of abstraction, which is what libs often do, makes software behave like philosophers. (doesn't do much very quickly, and ponders a lot on the simplest of problems) Oct 24 02:12:06 mwester: depends who does the libs Oct 24 02:12:06 :) Oct 24 02:12:13 raster: you shouldn't have made eina so ill-tempered ;p Oct 24 02:12:42 she keeps trying to cause me trouble ;p Oct 24 02:12:49 sicu_: just delete the offendign file Oct 24 02:12:50 :) Oct 24 02:13:13 mwester: in our case same libhs come from same people - thus they tend to do the right thing Oct 24 02:13:16 put her in her place Oct 24 02:13:18 as u know just what the internals do Oct 24 02:13:26 and how to not kill things Oct 24 02:13:32 or how to work "with" the results Oct 24 02:13:53 raster: hehe, done ... but i'm sure she'll be back some other day to yank my chain Oct 24 02:15:46 raster: my favorite example is a set of libraries which, when stacked up in the way the client's developers had done, took a floating point number as input, ended up converting it to ascii representation (XML record), and passed to another lib, where it was read in and converted back to floating point. ;) Oct 24 02:24:59 >:) Oct 24 02:25:00 sicus Oct 24 02:30:37 =D Oct 24 02:33:08 ah well, this build is gonna take a while ... time to hit the sack Oct 24 02:33:13 nn Oct 24 02:35:30 :) Oct 24 02:36:08 MWester, I like your philosophy of that so far :) Oct 24 02:42:45 raster is smooth as silk Oct 24 02:42:47 hehe ^^ Oct 24 02:43:21 love the theme btw ... =] Oct 24 02:55:27 you came back! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Oct 24 02:59:57 2008