**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 01 02:59:58 2008
Dec 01 03:00:45 <quatrox> apt: how old are you?
Dec 01 03:00:46 <apt> 900 ... like Yoda ...
Dec 01 03:06:16 <zash> haha, a bit west of that is a street named Gaylord
Dec 01 03:08:15 <quatrox> strange americans
Dec 01 03:10:14 <quatrox> but here in Norway, we have a placed named Hell
Dec 01 03:11:24 <quatrox> tourists often by one-way-tickets just to get a souvenir
Dec 01 03:13:03 <DocScrutinizer2> :-) not highway to hell, but at least a oneway ticket. makes a nice gift
Dec 01 03:13:16 <quatrox> well
Dec 01 03:13:33 <quatrox> better not give a two-way ticket
Dec 01 03:13:47 <quatrox> don't want anyone to return
Dec 01 03:15:00 <DocScrutinizer2> could you get me one of these please? :-)
Dec 01 03:15:59 <quatrox> haha... maybe... the place is not very close to me
Dec 01 03:16:53 <Dave> Holy shit Java makes me want to rip all my appendages off and bludgeon someone with them.
Dec 01 03:17:30 <quatrox> java is not that evil
Dec 01 03:17:54 <Dave> Dude, I've spent the last half hour trying to make a simple system call.
Dec 01 03:18:14 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 01 03:18:20 <quatrox> not good
Dec 01 03:18:25 <Dave> Quatrox, I suppose you're a java person?
Dec 01 03:18:26 <zash> Dave: why even bother?
Dec 01 03:18:50 * quatrox tries to sleep
Dec 01 03:18:52 <Dave> zash, do you REALLY want to know the answer to that?
Dec 01 03:18:54 <Dave> hahaha quatrox
Dec 01 03:19:01 <Dave> That's okay, I'll let you escape :)
Dec 01 03:19:02 <zash> Dave: i don't know
Dec 01 03:19:09 <zash> DO I?
Dec 01 03:19:14 <Dave> Doubtful.
Dec 01 03:21:12 <slaxxin> like wheel,   java suck
Dec 01 03:21:51 <slaxxin> of course i wouldnt know  about java
Dec 01 03:22:41 <slaxxin> Dave Breaks Java
Dec 01 03:23:15 <Dave> I DESTROY EVERYTHING!
Dec 01 03:23:26 <Dave> Especially phones :P
Dec 01 03:23:32 <zash> DAVE, THE DESTROYER OF JAVA AND PHONES
Dec 01 03:23:40 <zash> DESTROYINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE
Dec 01 03:23:40 <slaxxin> down to 3 mokos yet?
Dec 01 03:23:48 <Dave> and especially phones with java
Dec 01 03:23:49 <Dave> :P
Dec 01 03:23:56 <Dave> zash, I like your style.
Dec 01 03:25:31 <zash> Dave: then I think you will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gz1DIIxmEE
Dec 01 03:25:54 <Dave> o.O
Dec 01 03:32:18 <Arg0naut> sim card not being detected, any trouble shooting ideas? (was working about a month ago)
Dec 01 03:37:01 <slaxxin> happend to me i just got another card
Dec 01 03:41:14 * Dave throws coffee beans at DocScrutinizer
Dec 01 03:41:24 <Arg0naut> did it stop working on all phones or just the freerunner?
Dec 01 03:41:35 <slaxxin> all
Dec 01 03:41:59 <Arg0naut> with this it just seems to be the freerunner (only have two phones to test)
Dec 01 03:42:26 <slaxxin> att?
Dec 01 03:42:32 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: STOP THAT! I had my coffe
Dec 01 03:42:39 <Arg0naut> fido(canada)
Dec 01 03:42:45 <slaxxin> oo
Dec 01 03:43:34 <slaxxin> theres a gsm  upgrade u might need now
Dec 01 03:44:02 <Arg0naut> even if it worked before?
Dec 01 03:44:26 <DocScrutinizer2> Arg0naut: hmm, seems strange
Dec 01 03:44:55 <DocScrutinizer2> probably MOKO10 fw won't help then
Dec 01 03:45:20 <Dave> :D
Dec 01 03:46:29 <DocScrutinizer2> check your card is seated properly, and has clean contacts (also sim holder should be cleaned). use unvarnished paper to rub  the contacts
Dec 01 03:46:40 <Dave> check it's not backwards!
Dec 01 03:46:41 <Dave> :D
Dec 01 03:46:48 <Arg0naut> lol
Dec 01 03:46:49 <Dave> I did that a couple times absentmindedly :P
Dec 01 03:47:09 <Dave> Which solved /that/ "Registration problem" :P
Dec 01 03:47:13 <Dave> haha
Dec 01 03:47:25 <Arg0naut> i'll try contact rubbing
Dec 01 03:47:44 * DocScrutinizer wonders how you can insert a sim backwards and still it would fit
Dec 01 03:50:02 <Dave> it fits perfectly joerg
Dec 01 03:50:03 <Dave> try it
Dec 01 03:50:08 <Dave> the contacts almost match up too
Dec 01 03:50:12 <Dave> they're just offset slightly
Dec 01 03:50:24 <Dave> I would be surprised if it hasn't happened to a few others.
Dec 01 03:53:22 <DocScrutinizer2> Dave: cut corner frong side, holder wont close
Dec 01 03:53:55 <DocScrutinizer2> Dave: unless you use a sledgehammer
Dec 01 03:54:26 <slaxxin> bear down Dave
Dec 01 03:54:56 <DocScrutinizer2> s/frong/wrong/
Dec 01 03:55:35 <Dave> o_O
Dec 01 03:55:50 <slaxxin> we won't have a release in Nov. Currently the testing team is going to do a full test on the latest testing image
Dec 01 03:55:52 <Dave> Joerg, you don't believe me?
Dec 01 03:58:15 <DocScrutinizer2> Dave: *YOU*probably will make it fit
Dec 01 03:58:22 <Dave> NO
Dec 01 03:58:24 <Dave> Geeze
Dec 01 03:58:28 <Dave> How do you not see this
Dec 01 03:58:40 <Dave> Not like it's a big deal at all ^_^
Dec 01 04:00:28 <slaxxin> has the dialer ui changed on shr?
Dec 01 04:00:49 <slaxxin>   ie it is still that blinding white
Dec 01 04:01:12 * raster blinds slaxxin with his white buttox
Dec 01 04:01:25 <slaxxin> yikes
Dec 01 04:02:13 <slaxxin> arrrrgggggggGGGGGGG
Dec 01 04:02:30 <raster> MUHAHAHAHAHAH
Dec 01 04:03:19 <Dave> RASTER
Dec 01 04:03:29 <Dave> raster.java
Dec 01 04:04:00 <zash> DAS RASTER
Dec 01 04:04:55 <raster> ewwww
Dec 01 04:04:59 <raster> java
Dec 01 04:05:01 <raster> ewwwwwwww
Dec 01 04:06:48 <Dave> hahaha
Dec 01 04:06:51 <Dave> That's what I said.
Dec 01 04:07:03 <DocScrutinizer2> I'll give it a try, Dave
Dec 01 04:07:15 <Dave> Hah, go for it.
Dec 01 04:07:29 <Dave> It'll take all of thirty seconds (if you can get the freerunner open).
Dec 01 04:09:20 <Dave> Welcome back, Ken.
Dec 01 04:09:59 <KenYoung> Thanks, Dave.   I think I have a version of orrery with that zoom problem that you saw fixed.
Dec 01 04:15:15 <Dave> yay
Dec 01 04:15:29 <Dave> It was difficult to reproduce, but just trying it a bunch of time yielded it
Dec 01 04:15:37 <Dave> It seemed mysterious at the time
Dec 01 04:15:40 <Dave> Did you finally figure it out? :)
Dec 01 04:15:49 <KenYoung> I'll upload it as soon as I finish adding a few new features.
Dec 01 04:17:08 <KenYoung> Dave, I found it by getting it into that glitched state, and then forcing a core dump.   Then I evamined the core dump with gdb, and found that the value for the center azimuth was a NAN (and not the tasty tandoori kind).
Dec 01 04:17:43 <Dave> geeze
Dec 01 04:17:58 <Dave> hah, yeah :)
Dec 01 04:18:02 <Dave> okay cool
Dec 01 04:18:34 <KenYoung> It's *really* nice to be able to run gdb on the phone."
Dec 01 04:19:11 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: (It'll take all of thirty seconds) No problem to find and open FR a dozen in 30sec, but I need a *SIM* for this :-/
Dec 01 04:19:14 <thanatos0624> is there a separate channel for android discussion?
Dec 01 04:22:28 <KenYoung> Are there any other Openmoko channels besides this one and openmoko-cdevel?
Dec 01 04:22:46 <mwester> #android IIRC, thanatos0624 
Dec 01 04:22:47 <Dave> Joerg, you don't have any laying around?
Dec 01 04:23:11 <Dave> Ken, yeah a few rogue channels, mostly for different branch development
Dec 01 04:23:12 <Dave> :)
Dec 01 04:23:25 <raster> #theandroidconspiracy
Dec 01 04:23:29 <raster> :)
Dec 01 04:24:12 <thanatos0624> Would any of those channels be an appropriate venue to discuss building, say, busybox for android on freerunner?
Dec 01 04:28:15 <raster> probably not
Dec 01 04:28:21 <raster> as busybox has nothng to do with android
Dec 01 04:28:25 <raster> well that depends
Dec 01 04:28:41 <raster> are you usign the android userspace completely
Dec 01 04:28:45 <raster> including their libc etc. etc.
Dec 01 04:35:40 <thanatos0624> i was looking for a toolchain
Dec 01 04:35:53 <thanatos0624> i'm a little new at this, so i got stuck
Dec 01 04:37:18 <thanatos0624> sean mcneill obviously managed to accomplish something, but i don't quite understand what he did ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Seanmcneil3 )
Dec 01 04:37:49 <thanatos0624> I thought maybe I could set up an environment with scratchbox or something where I could build busybox from source
Dec 01 04:38:00 <mwester> The koolu guy talks to us, sean doesn't do IRC, or at least this channel.
Dec 01 04:38:17 <mwester> I'd suggest email to the list and ask sean.
Dec 01 04:38:30 <thanatos0624> list?
Dec 01 04:42:08 <Toaster`> Is there a way to set the screen blank and/or suspend time from the command line?
Dec 01 04:42:48 <raster> xset s
Dec 01 04:44:13 <Toaster`> thanks raster 
Dec 01 04:45:04 <thanatos0624> Never mind, guys, there's a toolchain linked to on the Koolu forums
Dec 01 05:03:16 <DocScrutinizer> back to the fridge, FR!
Dec 01 05:05:04 <mwester> No cans of cold spray?
Dec 01 05:13:39 <DocScrutinizer2> mwester: actually bought 2 of them. didn't trigger wsod, so I'll give it a wpmin freezer
Dec 01 05:16:58 <DocScrutinizer2> s/wp/20/
Dec 01 05:16:59 <apt> DocScrutinizer2 meant: mwester: actually bought 2 of them. didn't trigger wsod, so I'll give it a 20min freezer
Dec 01 05:17:20 <rooly> woo hoo
Dec 01 05:17:26 <rooly> i found an old nokia battery
Dec 01 05:17:28 <rooly> works great
Dec 01 05:17:33 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 01 05:17:36 <rooly> doesn't have all the data capabilities
Dec 01 05:18:03 <rooly> backup batteries ftw
Dec 01 05:18:18 <DocScrutinizer2> rooly: nope, doesn't. FR bat smarter
Dec 01 05:20:05 <AntonTakk> anyone seen the updates to the gta03 specs page?
Dec 01 05:20:25 <AntonTakk> er gta03_revisions
Dec 01 05:20:46 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 01 05:22:09 <DocScrutinizer2> AntonTakk: seen the note on this page? speculative, not endorsed by OM
Dec 01 05:23:17 <AntonTakk> i know, but some of it is very well speculated, like the gprs modem, and gps chip, as hardware verification has been done on them by the foresight lab
Dec 01 05:23:49 <AntonTakk> so we at least know there are early gta03 ev boards with those devices
Dec 01 05:24:57 <AntonTakk> the thing that really caught my eye, thou was the 10 Ah rating on that proposed wishlist battery
Dec 01 05:25:44 <DocScrutinizer> muahaaaha. 10Ah
Dec 01 05:26:18 <DocScrutinizer> send us some samples!!!
Dec 01 05:26:36 <AntonTakk> granted i'm far from being qualified to make an educated guess, but it seems to me that with a battery like that a phone with only modest power management could run for a very long time
Dec 01 05:26:51 <AntonTakk> yeah, true, never count your eggs, or what ever, but still
Dec 01 05:27:02 <zash> 10 .. Ah? 
Dec 01 05:27:08 <AntonTakk> yes
Dec 01 05:27:13 <AntonTakk> 10,000 mah
Dec 01 05:27:21 <zash> carbatterysized?
Dec 01 05:27:27 <DocScrutinizer> probably for backpack carrying ;-)
Dec 01 05:27:30 <AntonTakk> nope
Dec 01 05:27:41 <AntonTakk> let me get the product link from the manufacturer's website
Dec 01 05:28:09 <AntonTakk> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4053
Dec 01 05:28:50 <zash> holy cow
Dec 01 05:29:24 <zash> quite large
Dec 01 05:29:29 <zash> but not that large
Dec 01 05:30:14 <AntonTakk> even so, go for half the size and you still have 5x the freerunner's battery
Dec 01 05:30:50 <DocScrutinizer> Weight        258 grams
Dec 01 05:31:19 <DocScrutinizer> won't happen
Dec 01 05:31:47 <zash> haha
Dec 01 05:33:07 <Dave> zash ;p
Dec 01 05:35:18 <zash> Design charge: 52.2 Wh
Dec 01 05:35:44 <zash> why don't we just use a crappy laptop battery
Dec 01 05:35:58 <zash> and build the biggest phone EVER
Dec 01 05:36:17 <rooly> oh, you mean the gnu phone
Dec 01 05:37:02 <zash> rooly: URL PLZ
Dec 01 05:38:19 <subfusc> http://justgoogleit.com
Dec 01 05:41:46 <rooly|away> 'le bedtime
Dec 01 05:41:47 <rooly|away> nn
Dec 01 06:18:21 <dufflebunk> Does anyone have the qtextended source handy?
Dec 01 06:18:38 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03tick 07org.openmoko.dev * r178212d84290 10/packages/qtopia-phone/ (2 files in 2 dirs): qtopia: update the PhoneProfile.conf in OE
Dec 01 06:20:39 <dufflebunk> I'm trying to track down why MMS isn't working for me. It may be related to log errors about "account_0" which I've never set up, and can't find any config files which mention it...
Dec 01 06:20:54 <dufflebunk> So I'm wondering if it's hard coded
Dec 01 06:38:17 <mokel> hi, what do i have to do, to build the fso 4.1 kernel? just checkout stable kernel git and ./build?
Dec 01 08:35:00 <lpotter> mms doesnt work on qtextended, because there is no wap stack
Dec 01 09:18:44 <kelvie> Hmm, so how do I re-enable mp3 support in FSO? :p
Dec 01 09:19:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03tick * r4838 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (20 files): 
Dec 01 09:19:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: opkg: adding the hash_table_remove API, not using yet.
Dec 01 09:19:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: Just complete the API for future usage.
Dec 01 09:19:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: Clean all the entry at initial time. This reduces planty of unnecessary check.
Dec 01 09:19:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: In order to prevent this kind of bug, using calloc to replace most malloc
Dec 01 09:36:07 <Hopscotch> good morning
Dec 01 09:42:44 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * reb4ccedc5ed3 10/fsod/src/fsod.vala: Fix syntax error in fsod.vala
Dec 01 09:42:45 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r8477f8dc4b48 10/fsod/configure.ac: Check for libnl during the configure process. Thanks Frederik Sdun
Dec 01 10:07:36 <kd8ikt>  
Dec 01 10:13:48 <kelvie> is it just me, or does FSO not suspend while idle?
Dec 01 11:15:55 <Fougner> Dave! =D
Dec 01 11:31:02 <Fougner> wow, the FR boots into OM -testing in under a minute!
Dec 01 11:31:10 <Fougner> sweet
Dec 01 11:31:52 <spydon> nice
Dec 01 11:31:59 <Fougner> yeah
Dec 01 11:32:02 <igor321> noice
Dec 01 11:32:04 <spydon> which bootloader?
Dec 01 11:32:14 <Fougner> the standard uboot I think =)
Dec 01 11:32:21 <Fougner> built on 9th of may this year
Dec 01 11:32:36 <igor321> that would mean it's even faster with qi, way2go openmoko
Dec 01 11:32:59 <Fougner> you sure?
Dec 01 11:33:07 <Fougner> why would it be faster with qi? =)
Dec 01 11:34:06 <igor321> we'll it's faster for me, and the damn wiki claims 40 seconds against the u-boot :)
Dec 01 11:34:42 <igor321> so yeah, you should be able to boot in 20 secs, being _really_ optimistic
Dec 01 11:34:51 <igor321> maybe we'll get there one day, eh :)
Dec 01 11:37:59 <Wonka> will i be able to select between different systems with qi?
Dec 01 11:38:16 <igor321> yes, with the aux button at boot
Dec 01 11:38:24 <Wonka> currently, i can boot from nand, the one kernel from sd, and the other kernel from sd
Dec 01 11:38:34 <SpeedEvil> hopefully we won't need to boot soon
Dec 01 11:38:49 <max_posedon> Wonka, I think yes, it is possible toi impement this via kexec I think.
Dec 01 11:39:16 <Wonka> hm, and when i have flashed a kernel that panics on boot, i am hosed?
Dec 01 11:39:29 <Fougner> oh gooood
Dec 01 11:39:36 <Wonka> i remember something about qi not doing dfu stuff...
Dec 01 11:39:41 <igor321> just reflash with the nor uboot, mon
Dec 01 11:39:50 <lindi-> if you have a laptoip
Dec 01 11:40:09 <lindi-> when you are on the road it's pretty useful to be able to select which kernel to boot
Dec 01 11:40:12 <max_posedon> Wonka, nor uboot is always with you)
Dec 01 11:40:20 <Wonka> igor321: ok, that's a workaround :)
Dec 01 11:41:03 <igor321> Wonka: i think it's better for qi to remain fast, rather then support dfu and other stuff
Dec 01 11:41:21 <igor321> for it to support that it has to initialise usb and that probably takes time
Dec 01 11:41:50 <Wonka> igor321: ack - just wanted to know how careful one must be while toying around
Dec 01 11:42:08 <Wonka> example: my current SHR X server doesn't start.
Dec 01 11:42:50 <Wonka> but wasn't there something about upcoming incompatible changes that would make the nor uboot unusable?
Dec 01 11:43:05 <igor321> hm lemme think
Dec 01 11:43:10 <igor321> yeah sorta
Dec 01 11:43:34 <igor321> i think it's limited in size of kernel it can take
Dec 01 11:43:34 <henk> the nor can be reflashed using the debug board, right?
Dec 01 11:44:29 <igor321> so you'd have to, reflashe the nand uboot without those restrictions, boot into the aforementioned uboot, flash the new kernel, flash qi again, it's a workaround as we said :)
Dec 01 11:44:49 <pieterc> Does any one know when Sean is about to put a new Rootfs online?
Dec 01 11:44:53 <pieterc> (for Android)
Dec 01 11:45:03 <igor321> he was supposed to do it today
Dec 01 11:45:13 <igor321> since he didn't, it's coming tommorrow
Dec 01 11:45:14 <igor321> :)
Dec 01 11:45:16 <pieterc> i'm waiting patiently ;)
Dec 01 11:45:26 <igor321> you and me both :)
Dec 01 11:46:03 <Wonka> i even have a debug board - but no small enough torx screw driver :(
Dec 01 11:46:07 <pieterc> It's just want a system that is able to show-off... so i can convince my engineering friends to use linux ;)
Dec 01 11:46:40 <pieterc> haha Wonka, can't you buy one from an openmoko reseller?
Dec 01 11:48:40 <Fougner> wonka, that's a pity
Dec 01 11:49:40 <henk> isn't it just a simple torx screwdriver like you get it in every other tools shop?
Dec 01 11:49:42 <Fougner> pieterc, your engineering friends, do they have problems with viruses? security?
Dec 01 11:49:54 <Fougner> henk, something like that
Dec 01 11:50:00 <Fougner> Wonka, where do you live?
Dec 01 11:50:11 <pieterc> Fougner: i always tell them windows IS a virus... so yes;)
Dec 01 11:50:23 <Fougner> pieterc, that's not correct
Dec 01 11:50:39 <Fougner> viruses are actually being developed
Dec 01 11:50:44 <pieterc> Fougner: :D
Dec 01 11:50:55 <henk> viruses are small, efficient, they work and you barely notice them...
Dec 01 11:51:24 <Fougner> the only thing they have in common is.. They spread like shit
Dec 01 11:51:40 <henk> yes, but you can sue the viruses author...
Dec 01 11:51:46 <pieterc> :Dµ
Dec 01 11:52:04 <Fougner> thanks to the unexisting EULA to use them
Dec 01 11:52:34 <pieterc> lets sue Micro$oft, openmoko-guys ;)
Dec 01 11:52:40 <pieterc> for spreading virusses;)
Dec 01 11:52:42 <Fougner> pieterc, good idea
Dec 01 11:52:46 <Fougner> hah
Dec 01 11:53:04 <Fougner> this is so good
Dec 01 11:53:25 <pieterc> Although I don't know why you should sue toiletpaper...
Dec 01 11:53:33 <Fougner> my mom uses XP (what else) and yesterday she had a problem with outlook express.
Dec 01 11:53:47 <pieterc> what's XP?
Dec 01 11:53:52 <Fougner> duh
Dec 01 11:54:12 <Fougner> winblows virus
Dec 01 11:54:14 <Fougner> anyhow
Dec 01 11:54:42 <Fougner> there was a strange error, about the verification and stuff. checked the settings, everything fine.. then I downloaded thunderbird
Dec 01 11:55:05 <Fougner> imported everything, set as standard email client..
Dec 01 11:55:12 <Fougner> woooop, worked like a charm
Dec 01 11:55:17 <pieterc> is that that operating system that echo's like a million of windows on the screen en doesn't know grep?
Dec 01 11:55:30 <pieterc> great;)
Dec 01 11:55:34 <pieterc> Ok
Dec 01 11:55:35 <pieterc> i g2g
Dec 01 11:55:48 <Fougner> and, they've used firefox for like years now.. 
Dec 01 11:55:52 <pieterc> due to bad taste of humour and an assignment of Physics;)
Dec 01 11:56:01 <pieterc> bye
Dec 01 11:56:04 <Fougner> byee =)
Dec 01 11:57:00 <Wonka> Fougner: northern germany
Dec 01 11:57:19 <Wonka> Fougner: i will simply buy a torx driver someday :)
Dec 01 11:57:22 <Fougner> yeah
Dec 01 11:57:25 <Fougner> exactley
Dec 01 11:57:41 <Fougner> germans are known for their high quality of tools
Dec 01 11:57:45 <Fougner> =)
Dec 01 11:57:57 <Fougner> so probably you'll find one, able to open a FR
Dec 01 11:58:17 <SpeedEvil> You can use an appropriate small flat screwdriver to undo torz
Dec 01 11:58:18 <SpeedEvil> x
Dec 01 11:58:22 <henk> Wonka: northern? how far?
Dec 01 12:01:53 <Fougner> henk, mannheim ;)
Dec 01 12:14:22 <henk> Fougner: you too?
Dec 01 12:22:23 <Wonka> 			Statement stm = conn.createStatement();
Dec 01 12:22:24 <Wonka> 			ResultSet rs = stm.executeQuery("SELECT nextval('PHONEBOOK_RECORD_SEQ')");
Dec 01 12:22:31 <Wonka> -EPASTE
Dec 01 12:22:38 <Wonka> http://www.geekherocomic.com/2008/11/29/linux-on-the-iphone/ is what i meant
Dec 01 12:29:52 <Fougner> henk, no, I meant Wonka :P
Dec 01 12:29:57 <Fougner> I live in Sweden =)
Dec 01 12:30:09 <henk> ah ok
Dec 01 12:30:49 <Tm_T> Fougner: where there?
Dec 01 12:33:48 <Fougner> Tm_T, southeast =)
Dec 01 12:43:01 <Tm_T> Fougner: bah, southern punk
Dec 01 12:44:51 <Fougner> Tm_T, what? ^^
Dec 01 12:45:57 <Tm_T> Fougner: (;)
Dec 01 12:46:21 <Fougner> ;D
Dec 01 12:46:31 <Fougner> northern punk!
Dec 01 12:46:37 <Tm_T> no punk
Dec 01 12:46:44 <Tm_T> too old to be punk
Dec 01 12:49:05 <CM_work> Fougner: Hur långt norrut? ;)
Dec 01 12:50:04 <Tm_T> CM_work: tycke mig? (one hand writing is hard at times)
Dec 01 12:50:27 <CM_work> :P
Dec 01 12:50:47 <CM_work> Tm_T: You can never be too old for punk 
Dec 01 12:51:06 <Tm_T> CM_work: never too old to rock'n'roll
Dec 01 12:51:36 <Tm_T> inte älskar, ja, om kanske tycker om mig,var så gut
Dec 01 12:53:06 <CM_work> Ich mag dir nicht :P
Dec 01 12:53:11 <CM_work> Oder was sagt man?
Dec 01 12:53:37 <Tm_T> night
Dec 01 12:53:46 <CM_work> night
Dec 01 13:03:26 <Wonka> henk: Kiel
Dec 01 13:03:59 <Wonka> henk: aka "south sweden" to people in Hannover and further south
Dec 01 13:04:22 <Wonka> henk: no sense of geography, those bavarians
Dec 01 13:11:45 <badcloud> speaking of which, does the Swedish-sold Freerunners have English on them as well, or just Swedish?
Dec 01 13:13:00 <badcloud> closest ordering location for me
Dec 01 13:13:33 <Tm_T> badcloud: err, swedish in where? apps?
Dec 01 13:13:59 <badcloud> yup
Dec 01 13:14:11 <badcloud> the build that it ships with
Dec 01 13:14:40 <Tm_T> I haven't seen any translations installed on any shipped FR thus far
Dec 01 13:15:29 <badcloud> k, thanks
Dec 01 13:16:16 <Fougner> badcloud, you decide it youself
Dec 01 13:16:34 <Fougner> don't count on the shipped distro .. it's awfully old ;P
Dec 01 13:16:43 <badcloud> righto
Dec 01 13:17:07 <badcloud> thanks
Dec 01 13:17:08 <Tm_T> but it works!
Dec 01 13:17:11 <Tm_T> well, games works
Dec 01 13:17:22 <Fougner> badcloud, swede?
Dec 01 13:18:07 <Fougner> CM_work, jag skrev till Tm_T , att han va northern punk.. jag är southeast punk ;)
Dec 01 13:18:17 <Tm_T> kids...
Dec 01 13:18:41 <Fougner> Tm_T, yeaah, at least I'm not old and weak ;)
Dec 01 13:18:53 <badcloud> nope, just live in Norway at the moment
Dec 01 13:19:19 <Fougner> oh. well
Dec 01 13:19:21 <Tm_T> Fougner: yet
Dec 01 13:19:29 <Fougner> Tm_T, haha
Dec 01 13:19:33 <badcloud> booorn, in the U S A, so English all the way for me
Dec 01 13:19:53 <Fougner> badcloud, the freerunners shipped here in Europe are all the same I guess
Dec 01 13:20:04 <badcloud> right
Dec 01 13:20:04 <Fougner> badcloud, what are you up to in Norway then? =P
Dec 01 13:20:37 <badcloud> good question. not a day goes by without me asking myself the same thing
Dec 01 13:20:48 <Tm_T> badcloud: Fougner: refugee perhaps?
Dec 01 13:20:48 <badcloud> came here to finish an undergrad in music
Dec 01 13:20:51 <badcloud> haha
Dec 01 13:20:55 <Fougner> oh
Dec 01 13:21:15 <badcloud> but by god if it's not the definition of middle ages in terms of classical music
Dec 01 13:22:02 <badcloud> what do you guys do?
Dec 01 13:22:47 <Fougner> I'm the human bot for this channel =)
Dec 01 13:22:52 <badcloud> hahahaha
Dec 01 13:22:57 <badcloud> paid?
Dec 01 13:23:09 <Fougner> have you ever heard of one?
Dec 01 13:23:34 <Fougner> DAAAAAAAAAVE!
Dec 01 13:23:47 <badcloud> well, no, but I'm an intermediate noob
Dec 01 13:23:55 <Fougner> apt shoot badcloud 
Dec 01 13:23:56 * apt shoots badcloud in the foot with a phase pistol!
Dec 01 13:24:09 <badcloud> ouch
Dec 01 13:24:10 <Fougner> apt: how old are you?
Dec 01 13:24:11 <apt> 900 ... like Yoda ...
Dec 01 13:24:19 <Fougner> apt: where do you live?=
Dec 01 13:24:28 <Fougner> apt: where are you?
Dec 01 13:24:29 <apt> I am at 42.37512 N, 72.51999 W
Dec 01 13:24:33 <badcloud> apt: who is your master?
Dec 01 13:24:34 <apt> [your master] not dio
Dec 01 13:24:49 <Fougner> apt: who is badcloud ?
Dec 01 13:24:51 <apt> Fougner: I think you lost me on that one
Dec 01 13:25:00 <badcloud> apt: what is the answer to life, the universe, and everything?
Dec 01 13:25:01 <Fougner> apt, right
Dec 01 13:25:02 <apt> I think you lost me on that one, badcloud
Dec 01 13:25:03 <apt> blah blah blah/spam spam spam/yaddayaddayaddayadda sis boom bam
Dec 01 13:25:12 <Fougner> ~_~
Dec 01 13:25:13 <apt> STOP DOING THAT!
Dec 01 13:25:21 <Fougner> apt get Fougner some coffee
Dec 01 13:25:22 * apt fetches Fougner some coffee
Dec 01 13:25:26 <badcloud> hahahahha
Dec 01 13:25:34 <Fougner> apt: I don't drink coffee
Dec 01 13:25:35 <apt> You don't drink coffee?
Dec 01 13:25:39 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03ainulindale 07libframeworkd-glib * r703017c8f874 10/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
Dec 01 13:25:39 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: * Implemented a FrameworkdHandlers constructor, in order to avoid duplication.
Dec 01 13:25:39 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: * Corrected a typo in frameworkd-glib-ogsmd-sim.[c|h]. Thanks to "gotterdammerung"
Dec 01 13:25:42 <Fougner> apt, nope
Dec 01 13:25:43 <apt> yes
Dec 01 13:25:46 <Sup3rkiddo> huh?!
Dec 01 13:25:47 <Fougner> ahha
Dec 01 13:25:58 <Fougner> apt, you're funny
Dec 01 13:26:08 <Sup3rkiddo> apt, kneel
Dec 01 13:26:18 <Fougner> apt: did they fix your AI ?
Dec 01 13:26:31 <Fougner> apt shooot apt
Dec 01 13:26:36 <Fougner> apt shoot apt
Dec 01 13:26:37 * apt shoots apt in the ear with a spitwad!
Dec 01 13:26:44 <badcloud> apt: tell a joke
Dec 01 13:26:48 <Fougner> apt: commit suicide
Dec 01 13:26:49 <apt> Hehe my survival instinct prevents me from killing myself
Dec 01 13:27:02 <badcloud> hahahahahahaha
Dec 01 13:27:02 <Fougner> apt shoot apt again
Dec 01 13:27:03 * apt shoots apt again in the head with a cork gun!
Dec 01 13:27:14 <Fougner> oh, that would hurt
Dec 01 13:27:23 <badcloud> survival instinct...
Dec 01 13:27:24 <Fougner> apt shoot Dave
Dec 01 13:27:25 * apt shoots Dave in the ear with a spitwad!
Dec 01 13:27:39 <badcloud> apt, what time is it?
Dec 01 13:27:40 <Fougner> apt shoot the King of Sweden
Dec 01 13:27:41 * apt shoots the King of Sweden in the foot with a frozen turkey cannon!
Dec 01 13:27:43 <apt> I think you lost me on that one, badcloud
Dec 01 13:27:52 <badcloud> your bot is a stoner
Dec 01 13:27:55 <Fougner> apt, time
Dec 01 13:27:56 <apt> You cannot understand nature's perfect time cube! (2008.12.01 13:27:55 GMT)
Dec 01 13:28:00 <badcloud> ah
Dec 01 13:28:20 <badcloud> impressive, the whole lot
Dec 01 13:28:36 <Fougner> with other words, 14.28 now =)
Dec 01 13:28:45 <Fougner> or?
Dec 01 13:28:46 <Fougner> o.O
Dec 01 13:28:52 <Fougner> anyway
Dec 01 13:29:00 <Fougner> I must pack
Dec 01 13:29:09 <badcloud> but sewiously, what do you do?
Dec 01 13:29:30 <Fougner> badcloud, nothing for the moment
Dec 01 13:30:09 <Fougner> I quit my job, going to Austria now for some months
Dec 01 13:30:30 <badcloud> cool
Dec 01 13:30:36 <badcloud> what *did* you do, then?
Dec 01 13:30:45 <Fougner> work =)
Dec 01 13:31:00 <badcloud> what was your job? stalling?
Dec 01 13:31:08 * Fougner googles up stalling
Dec 01 13:31:22 <badcloud> you know, like for time
Dec 01 13:31:52 <badcloud> nevermind
Dec 01 13:31:57 <Fougner> o_O
Dec 01 13:32:02 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 13:32:51 <Fougner> now I worked at an electronics department
Dec 01 13:32:56 <Fougner> no*
Dec 01 13:33:09 <Fougner> hmm, is it "an" or "a" ?
Dec 01 13:33:16 <badcloud> an
Dec 01 13:33:20 <Fougner> goood
Dec 01 13:33:23 <Fougner> thought so
Dec 01 13:33:35 <badcloud> that's cool
Dec 01 13:33:43 <Fougner> hehe, well my englesh is faahr frohm purrfeckt
Dec 01 13:33:52 <badcloud> would have fooled me
Dec 01 13:33:54 <Fougner> ^.^
Dec 01 13:34:07 <Fougner> purrfeeckt
Dec 01 13:34:19 <Fougner> oh americaaaan
Dec 01 13:34:31 <Fougner> John Sousa =D
Dec 01 13:34:45 <badcloud> that's one Yank
Dec 01 13:34:48 <Fougner> Stars and stripes =D
Dec 01 13:34:58 <badcloud> yeah, he wrote that
Dec 01 13:35:02 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 13:35:28 <Fougner> like, inofficial national anthem?
Dec 01 13:35:37 <badcloud> do you know if there is support yet for using an ir keyboard? using a usb-->ir adapter of course
Dec 01 13:35:49 <badcloud> hmmm, don't know about that
Dec 01 13:35:54 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 13:36:02 <Fougner> hmm, nope
Dec 01 13:36:04 <badcloud> Stars and Stripes would just be a patriotic fav
Dec 01 13:36:24 <badcloud> I personally don't connect to that stuff, but me
Dec 01 13:36:25 <badcloud> h
Dec 01 13:36:28 <badcloud> *meh
Dec 01 13:36:45 <Fougner> you have to get the right modules or drivers for the ir-adapter
Dec 01 13:36:50 <badcloud> 3right
Dec 01 13:36:56 <badcloud> *right
Dec 01 13:37:11 <Fougner> =D
Dec 01 13:37:16 <badcloud> I was wondering if anyone has already tested it
Dec 01 13:37:18 <Fougner> but nothing is impossible in linux you know
Dec 01 13:37:21 <badcloud> right
Dec 01 13:37:21 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 13:37:24 <Fougner> probably not
Dec 01 13:37:32 <Fougner> openmoko isn't sooo big yet
Dec 01 13:37:37 <Fougner> the community, that is
Dec 01 13:37:39 <badcloud> true
Dec 01 13:37:46 <Fougner> but we're growing
Dec 01 13:37:47 <SpeedEvil> It's forked though to an extent.
Dec 01 13:37:47 <badcloud> so where are you from?
Dec 01 13:37:56 <SpeedEvil> Which confuses people.
Dec 01 13:37:57 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, SAY WHAT?
Dec 01 13:38:37 <Fougner> badcloud, me?
Dec 01 13:38:47 * Fougner listens to Stars and Stripes
Dec 01 13:39:05 <SpeedEvil> Fougner: there are about eleventy different software stacks.
Dec 01 13:39:13 <badcloud> yup, Foug
Dec 01 13:40:05 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, yeah exactley.. I don't know it that's good or bad, but for me it's enough with 3 =)
Dec 01 13:40:15 <Fougner> badcloud, swede, southeast
Dec 01 13:40:35 <SpeedEvil> It's good if one works solidly.
Dec 01 13:40:52 <SpeedEvil> It's horrendously bad if none do, and effort is split amongst them.
Dec 01 13:40:54 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, well, does one work solidly? ^^
Dec 01 13:41:01 <SpeedEvil> No.
Dec 01 13:41:10 <badcloud> apt, shoot himself_in_the_ass
Dec 01 13:41:11 * apt shoots himself_in_the_ass in the foot with a quantum singularity weapon!
Dec 01 13:41:32 <badcloud> crap
Dec 01 13:41:39 <SpeedEvil> At least not as well as a nokia 3300 or similar
Dec 01 13:41:43 <Fougner> apt, shoot himself in the ass and
Dec 01 13:41:44 * apt shoots himself in the ass and in the foot with a quantum singularity weapon!
Dec 01 13:42:04 <Fougner> qoh
Dec 01 13:42:08 <badcloud> haha
Dec 01 13:42:08 <Fougner> poor apt
Dec 01 13:42:33 <Fougner> apt install windows
Dec 01 13:42:34 * apt runs yum -y localinstall windows-4.2-1.noarch.rpm
Dec 01 13:42:41 <badcloud> haha
Dec 01 13:42:46 <Fougner> hmm
Dec 01 13:42:52 <Fougner> I've heard of windows 3.1
Dec 01 13:42:57 <Fougner> or only DOS maybe?
Dec 01 13:43:03 <Fougner> but not 4.xx
Dec 01 13:43:13 <SpeedEvil> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1228138712969.jpg
Dec 01 13:43:14 <SpeedEvil> oops
Dec 01 13:43:18 <SpeedEvil> (though worksafe)
Dec 01 13:43:36 <Fougner> what is that? o_O
Dec 01 13:43:47 <SpeedEvil> It's a fish. 
Dec 01 13:43:52 <SpeedEvil> Some sort of baby ray I think
Dec 01 13:44:11 <badcloud> apt, install mac os
Dec 01 13:44:14 * apt runs yum -y localinstall mac os-4.2-1.noarch.rpm
Dec 01 13:44:29 <Fougner> "Can anyone buy me tickits to Indiaaa?" http://zip.4chan.org/trv/src/1228122633952.jpg
Dec 01 13:45:16 <SpeedEvil> I se your cat, and raise you http://www.mauve.plus.com/1223712256105.jpg
Dec 01 13:45:24 <badcloud> what does the kitten have to do with India??
Dec 01 13:45:49 <badcloud> apt, who is the prettiest one of all?
Dec 01 13:45:52 <apt> I think you lost me on that one, badcloud
Dec 01 13:46:28 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, that one is a cuuute bunny ^^
Dec 01 13:46:41 <Fougner> badcloud, haha he's got weird eyes ;)
Dec 01 13:46:50 <Fougner> apt, are you pretty?
Dec 01 13:47:11 <badcloud> ah...
Dec 01 13:48:32 <Fougner> xD
Dec 01 13:50:18 <badcloud> the kitten's eyes are hypnotic...
Dec 01 13:50:19 <CM_work> ~fish Fougner 
Dec 01 13:50:20 * apt slaps Fougner around with a large trout
Dec 01 13:50:23 <CM_work> :D
Dec 01 13:50:53 <badcloud> ~buffalo
Dec 01 13:51:01 <Fougner> apt shoot CM_work 
Dec 01 13:51:02 * apt shoots CM_work in the ear with a cork gun!
Dec 01 13:51:07 <badcloud> ~buffalo badcloud
Dec 01 13:51:19 <CM_work> ~beer badcloud 
Dec 01 13:51:20 * apt pours a quart of Spaten Pils for badcloud
Dec 01 13:51:28 <CM_work> ~zap Fougner 
Dec 01 13:51:29 * apt takes out a cattle prod and gives Fougner a good jolt.
Dec 01 13:51:41 <CM_work> ~seen Dave
Dec 01 13:51:45 <apt> dave is currently on #openmoko (8d 20h 47m 12s). Has said a total of 942 messages. Is idling for 8h 18m 38s, last said: 'zash ;p'.
Dec 01 13:51:51 <badcloud> apt, shoot some manjuice apt
Dec 01 13:51:53 * apt shoots some manjuice apt in the ear with a glue gun!
Dec 01 13:52:05 <CM_work> Hehe
Dec 01 13:52:09 <Fougner> ~seen Fougner 
Dec 01 13:52:10 <apt> fougner is currently on #openmoko (2d 19h 20m 14s). Has said a total of 534 messages. Is idling for 0s, last said: '~seen Fougner '.
Dec 01 13:52:10 <badcloud> can't get the syntax down
Dec 01 13:52:25 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.dev * r4b4bfc0ef619 10/packages/python/python-etk_svn.bb: python-etk_svn.bb: increase PE again to *really* exceed asu.stable.
Dec 01 13:52:25 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.dev * red361ea0a1e2 10/packages/u-boot/u-boot-openmoko-devel_git.bb: u-boot-openmoko-devel_git.bb: PE in asu.stable is 2, so this need to
Dec 01 13:52:32 <CM_work> apt: blootbot
Dec 01 13:52:33 <SpeedEvil> badcloud: the less successful sequel to BlackHawk Down
Dec 01 13:52:34 <apt> i heard blootbot is an IRC bot written in perl descended from infobot. Hosted on SF. This project is now merged back into the main infobot project. See [infobot]
Dec 01 13:53:09 <badcloud> gotcha
Dec 01 13:53:30 <Fougner> CM_work, så vad händer på jobbet? ^.^
Dec 01 13:53:52 <CM_work> Fougner: Inte mycke, ganska lungt just nu :)
Dec 01 13:54:06 <Fougner> skatteverket? :O
Dec 01 13:54:11 <CM_work> Japp
Dec 01 13:54:12 <CM_work> :P
Dec 01 13:54:17 <Fougner> oj
Dec 01 13:54:18 <CM_work> Konsult
Dec 01 13:54:20 * Fougner runs away
Dec 01 13:54:23 <CM_work> Hehe
Dec 01 13:54:32 <Fougner> coolt
Dec 01 13:54:36 * CM_work sends some IRS agents after Fougner 
Dec 01 13:54:40 <CM_work> :D
Dec 01 13:55:04 * Fougner ... No, please.... NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Dec 01 13:55:04 <CM_work> Är riktigt sura brandväggar här, men de har inte spärrat mibbit
Dec 01 13:55:15 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 13:55:29 <Fougner> så vad konsultar du med?
Dec 01 13:55:49 <CM_work> Utveckling, just nu java
Dec 01 13:56:19 * CM_work is sorry for hijacking the channel
Dec 01 13:56:48 * CM_work points to his GTA01 with SHR on and a WSOD as the excuse
Dec 01 13:57:00 <Fougner> coolt, vad har du för utbildning i botten? =)
Dec 01 13:57:27 <CM_work> Civ Ing Teknisk Fysik + 140 data, Umeå universitet
Dec 01 13:57:37 <CM_work> 140p alltså :)
Dec 01 13:58:11 <Fougner> yeah, that's what I'm talking about
Dec 01 14:00:14 <Fougner> CM_work, oj, nu är klockan tre ;)
Dec 01 14:00:22 <CM_work> Ja, jag hör det
Dec 01 14:00:34 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 14:01:10 <CM_work> Does any other country have these stupid alarms every month?
Dec 01 14:09:29 <mmp> Hello, is there any way to log on ssh on *.projects.openmoko.org? all the manuals say "enter your password", but it looks like the ssh server has enabled only publickey access
Dec 01 14:12:08 * Your connection has been closed. Please reconnect
Dec 01 14:12:38 * very funny
Dec 01 14:12:40 <henk> Wonka: hehe ok
Dec 01 14:13:01 <Fabrix> eheh
Dec 01 14:13:55 <Zorkman> sean still hasen't released his new android image?
Dec 01 14:18:32 <SpawN> http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=217840
Dec 01 14:18:33 <SpawN> http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=217840
Dec 01 14:19:29 <Blackhex> hi, I just tried today's OM testing image http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/testing/ and the boot process stucks on step "Configuring update-modules". Is it a known issue?
Dec 01 14:26:57 <CM_work> mmp: You have to upload your ssh key first
Dec 01 14:27:06 <mmp> CM_work: how?
Dec 01 14:27:31 <mmp> I browsed probably every page in web interface and couldn't find dialog to do that...
Dec 01 14:27:47 <CM_work> I think it should be in your user preferences somewhere
Dec 01 14:30:43 <mmp> CM_work: got it; thanks a lot :)
Dec 01 14:37:23 <Fougner> mmp, heeey
Dec 01 14:37:31 <Fougner> is the project accepted? =)
Dec 01 14:38:19 <Tm_T> "the project" ?
Dec 01 14:38:49 <Fougner> Tm_T yeaaaaaah
Dec 01 14:38:51 <Fougner> exactley =D
Dec 01 14:39:13 <Tm_T> dunno which one you're referring to but mine was accepted years ago
Dec 01 14:43:44 <Fougner> Tm_T, I asked mmp =)
Dec 01 14:52:36 <badcloud> apt, shoot some heroine
Dec 01 14:52:37 * apt shoots some heroine in the foot with a glue gun!
Dec 01 14:53:18 <zash> sounds painful
Dec 01 14:53:47 <Tm_T> as it should be
Dec 01 14:55:09 <badcloud> apt, shoot some morphene for the pain
Dec 01 14:55:11 * apt shoots some morphene for the pain in the head with a phase pistol!
Dec 01 14:55:31 <badcloud> hmmm, not sure about the spellingthere
Dec 01 14:57:59 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 14:58:31 <Fougner> badcloud, morphine ;)
Dec 01 14:59:53 <henk> more-fine
Dec 01 15:03:14 <Fougner> xD
Dec 01 15:08:48 <Fougner> Shhh, DocScrutinizer is here
Dec 01 15:10:31 <DocScrutinizer> I'm omnipresent ;-)
Dec 01 15:10:52 <DocScrutinizer> even if you don't know or expect to
Dec 01 15:11:18 <Wonka> *g*
Dec 01 15:11:34 <Wonka> still found no time to look further into my ppp issue...
Dec 01 15:13:38 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, oh :O
Dec 01 15:13:53 <DocScrutinizer> Fougner: haha;; Fougner: badcloud, morphine ;);; henk: more-fine;; Fougner: xD
Dec 01 15:14:03 <DocScrutinizer> ;-)
Dec 01 15:15:42 <Fougner> omfg
Dec 01 15:15:46 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, HOW DID YOU DO THAT?
Dec 01 15:15:51 <Fougner> the logs?
Dec 01 15:16:01 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 15:16:02 <slaxxin> my alarm on shr woke me up
Dec 01 15:16:11 <DocScrutinizer> Im always and everywhere ;-D
Dec 01 15:16:55 <DocScrutinizer> look at my *name*
Dec 01 15:18:00 <slaxxin> the latest omtesting any good?
Dec 01 15:18:20 <Fougner> slaxxin, booted it up in under a minute ;)
Dec 01 15:18:26 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, what?
Dec 01 15:18:29 <slaxxin> really
Dec 01 15:18:46 <Fougner> ah, lol, DocScrutinizer2
Dec 01 15:18:46 <slaxxin> have gps an such?
Dec 01 15:18:55 <Fougner> slaxxin, opkg install tangogps
Dec 01 15:18:57 <slaxxin> wifi?
Dec 01 15:19:09 <Fougner> hmm, out of the box, can't see anything
Dec 01 15:19:14 <slaxxin> ok
Dec 01 15:19:24 <slaxxin> settings only?
Dec 01 15:19:24 <DocScrutinizer> Fougner: I'm known by *many* names >:-)
Dec 01 15:19:31 <Fougner> but probably it will work with diversity-wifi 
Dec 01 15:19:53 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, bleh.. never trust a electronics engineer
Dec 01 15:19:57 <Fougner> an*
Dec 01 15:20:04 <DocScrutinizer> lol
Dec 01 15:20:11 <Fougner> oh, electronics
Dec 01 15:20:19 <Fougner> you know about voltage and stuff then? =D
Dec 01 15:20:26 <Fougner> like, U = R*I? ^.^
Dec 01 15:20:46 <DocScrutinizer> I'm supposed to
Dec 01 15:20:50 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 15:20:54 <Fougner> but you don't
Dec 01 15:21:10 <Fougner> you engineered the FR yourself? =P
Dec 01 15:22:48 <DocScrutinizer> Fougner: then probably I wouldn't constatntly fix errors. Either because there weren't any, or I didn't find them because they were my own
Dec 01 15:23:11 <Fougner> haha, what do I know ? :P
Dec 01 15:23:37 <Fougner> what errors ?=P
Dec 01 15:23:58 <DocScrutinizer> you know it's always the hardest task to find the errors you produced by yourself
Dec 01 15:24:22 <DocScrutinizer> (what errors) like buzz, e.g.?
Dec 01 15:24:42 <DocScrutinizer> or missing low freq on headset?
Dec 01 15:25:20 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, what do I know? ^^
Dec 01 15:25:30 <Fougner> you assume I know about them..
Dec 01 15:25:32 <DocScrutinizer> you repeat yourself
Dec 01 15:25:45 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, yes that I know of
Dec 01 15:25:50 <DocScrutinizer> you asked
Dec 01 15:26:03 <Fougner> apt shoot DocScrutinizer 
Dec 01 15:26:04 * apt shoots DocScrutinizer in the foot with a cork gun!
Dec 01 15:26:07 <Fougner> =D
Dec 01 15:26:30 <Zorkman> meh don't shoot the doc
Dec 01 15:26:33 <Zorkman> we need him
Dec 01 15:26:43 <Fougner> Zorkman, it's just a cork gun :O
Dec 01 15:26:51 <bernt> apt shoot apt!
Dec 01 15:26:52 * apt shoots apt! in the eye with a quantum singularity weapon!
Dec 01 15:27:04 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 15:27:09 <slaxxin> doc,,,, DOOOOOCV
Dec 01 15:27:19 <slaxxin> DOOOOOC
Dec 01 15:27:32 <Zorkman> can't reach  http://shr.bearstech.com/ on host or FR... very strange...
Dec 01 15:27:35 <slaxxin>     now youve went an done it
Dec 01 15:27:37 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer, so when is the next release of the updated Freerunner?
Dec 01 15:27:47 <DocScrutinizer> <no match on keywords>
Dec 01 15:28:12 <Fougner> what? o.O
Dec 01 15:28:23 <slaxxin> haha
Dec 01 15:28:28 <DocScrutinizer> dunno, that's production. I'm EE research and development
Dec 01 15:29:46 <Fougner> aha
Dec 01 15:30:07 <DocScrutinizer> or, to be more precise: "hardware and synergy"
Dec 01 15:30:24 <Fougner> you're not integrating stuff and so on.. just research and try to fix problems? :PÅ
Dec 01 15:30:26 <Fougner> :P*
Dec 01 15:31:10 <DocScrutinizer> come to visit me and see one of my 19h workdays
Dec 01 15:31:34 <DocScrutinizer> then compete and do better
Dec 01 15:31:36 <Fougner> oh, can I ?
Dec 01 15:31:50 <DocScrutinizer> I won't pay for it
Dec 01 15:32:10 <Fougner> I'm just disturbing the rest :P
Dec 01 15:32:23 <Fougner> but I can get coffee for you ^^
Dec 01 15:32:57 <DocScrutinizer> I'm used to that, no big thing to fetch it myself. But thanks
Dec 01 15:33:41 <Fougner> ^^
Dec 01 15:33:49 <DocScrutinizer> A good cup of latte macciato in the morning, even before getting out of bed, very appreciated ;-)
Dec 01 15:34:34 <DocScrutinizer> a glas even
Dec 01 15:36:16 <DocScrutinizer2> wheather getting better recently here in Taipei, so you only need a warm sleepingbag and can camp in the nearby forrest XD
Dec 01 15:37:03 <DocScrutinizer2> weather even
Dec 01 15:37:41 <DocScrutinizer2> Fougner: beware of the moskitos though
Dec 01 15:37:54 <Wonka> Forrest Gump?
Dec 01 15:41:04 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, yeah I will =D
Dec 01 15:41:58 <DocScrutinizer2> tell me which flight, and maybe we can arrange some taxi from airport for you
Dec 01 15:42:06 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 15:42:37 <Fougner> yeah I'll catch a plane tomorrow, where's the office? ;)
Dec 01 15:43:12 <DocScrutinizer2> the taxi will take you there
Dec 01 15:44:01 <DocScrutinizer2> yan guang rd 300
Dec 01 15:44:28 <DocScrutinizer2> see wiki
Dec 01 15:45:43 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, you're kidding me, aren't you? =)
Dec 01 15:46:09 <DocScrutinizer2> who's kidding whom?
Dec 01 15:46:29 <DocScrutinizer2> you won't get a flight for tomorrow
Dec 01 15:46:38 <Fougner> hahah, what the
Dec 01 15:47:54 <Fougner> http://www.justpasha.org/folk/whowhat.html
Dec 01 15:48:10 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, you can't be serious?
Dec 01 15:54:20 <DocScrutinizer2> Fougner: great link! :-D
Dec 01 15:54:53 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2 yeah I know ;OP
Dec 01 15:54:54 <Fougner> ;P*
Dec 01 15:57:51 <DocScrutinizer2> Fougner: of course I'm kidding you. Probably it's cumbersome to camp in this forest on the hill nearby, and you wouldn't like to sit all the day next to me watching me reading manuals and datasheets
Dec 01 15:58:58 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, never say never, just get me a bed and I'll do whatever you tell me to, as long as it's somehow related "development" and "openmoko" ;D
Dec 01 15:59:17 <Fougner> uhm, haha, leave out the first part
Dec 01 15:59:38 <Fougner> I meant, arrange a place to sleep
Dec 01 15:59:47 <Fougner> or do you guys need to sleep down there? o.O
Dec 01 16:00:24 <Guilt> hey openmos \o/
Dec 01 16:00:45 <Guilt> i got my debug board, havent used mine neo in a long time. how is it going, all
Dec 01 16:00:50 <DocScrutinizer2> actually OM-apartment is crowded atm :-/
Dec 01 16:01:05 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2,  hehe, cool
Dec 01 16:01:15 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r834a1418ed6c 10/fsod/ (11 files in 10 dirs): 
Dec 01 16:01:15 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 1.) Fix mem leaks in
Dec 01 16:01:15 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org:  ODeviced.get_device()
Dec 01 16:01:15 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org:  input-helpers.c
Dec 01 16:01:15 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 2.) Add GetTimeOuts in idlenotifier plugin
Dec 01 16:01:16 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 3.) Fix some warnings
Dec 01 16:01:18 <Fougner> I guess people sleep on each other then :P
Dec 01 16:01:35 <Guilt> sleep with??
Dec 01 16:01:47 <Tm_T> no, on
Dec 01 16:02:03 <Guilt> sleeping on sounds more evil ;)
Dec 01 16:02:12 <Tm_T> as it should
Dec 01 16:02:25 <DocScrutinizer2> yeah, tomorrow a 4th person will check in, then we actually have that problem
Dec 01 16:02:45 <Fougner> haha
Dec 01 16:03:03 <[Rui]> hi all
Dec 01 16:03:09 <Dave> Look out, there's snipers camping in the woods!
Dec 01 16:03:31 <Tm_T> Dave: I am not in the woods, though from the woods
Dec 01 16:03:37 <DocScrutinizer2> Dave: nah, not here
Dec 01 16:03:39 <Dave> :)
Dec 01 16:03:51 <Dave> Joerg, do the mosquitos like you?
Dec 01 16:04:36 <DocScrutinizer2> yup, bite me badly Sunday a week ago when I had a walk in the morning
Dec 01 16:04:49 <Fougner> Joerg? =D
Dec 01 16:04:56 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, what country are you from? =)
Dec 01 16:05:05 <DocScrutinizer2> D
Dec 01 16:05:10 <Fougner> DE?
Dec 01 16:05:15 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 01 16:05:51 <Fougner> seems a lot of openmoko guys come from Germany ^^
Dec 01 16:06:12 <DocScrutinizer2> hmm yeah quite some
Dec 01 16:06:31 <henk> it seems a lot of opensource guys come from germany... half debian seems to be german sometimes...
Dec 01 16:07:04 <Fougner> real german handcraft ^^
Dec 01 16:07:13 <gromgull> henk: yes I wonder what it is about germans that lead them to contribute and lead open source projects so quickly...
Dec 01 16:07:26 <gromgull> KDE's Akademy was also at least 50% german
Dec 01 16:07:55 <[Rui]> anyone on keyboard with experience with FSO building?
Dec 01 16:08:01 <ronny> somehow i still have a surprisingly hard time to find opensource companies in germany
Dec 01 16:08:06 <[Rui]> http://pastebin.com/m76dbae4c
Dec 01 16:08:13 <DocScrutinizer2> for the hw team we got TW-staff almost 
Dec 01 16:08:22 <DocScrutinizer2> exclusively
Dec 01 16:08:28 <gromgull> ronny: Try universities :) 
Dec 01 16:08:38 <ronny> gromgull: im a student already ;P
Dec 01 16:08:40 <henk> gromgull: if you find out, tell me ;)
Dec 01 16:09:02 <henk> ronny: the only ones i can think of atm are SuSE perhaps and credativ
Dec 01 16:09:10 <ronny> gromgull: but i'd like twice the pay
Dec 01 16:09:24 <gromgull> I work at DFKI - we pay twice what university does and there is lots of OS
Dec 01 16:09:42 <gromgull> I guess also Frauenhofer and even Max Planck pay better than uni and do OS a lot
Dec 01 16:09:50 <Dave> Joerg, I'm sure you get along though, right? :)
Dec 01 16:10:25 <DocScrutinizer2> :-x
Dec 01 16:10:36 <Dave> :x
Dec 01 16:10:38 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2,  hahaha why? :P
Dec 01 16:10:48 <Dave> He'd clearly rather not say :p
Dec 01 16:11:07 * Dave slaps Fougner around with some pizza dough
Dec 01 16:12:21 <DocScrutinizer2> first of all I don't know chinese, neither spoken nor kanji
Dec 01 16:12:40 <Dave> That certainly doesn't help :)
Dec 01 16:12:48 <Dave> But everyone is still nice, right?
Dec 01 16:12:58 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 01 16:12:59 <Fougner> how can you communicate with them then? ^^
Dec 01 16:13:18 <DocScrutinizer2> english?
Dec 01 16:13:37 <Dave> Pictographs?
Dec 01 16:13:40 <Dave> Pictionary!? :D
Dec 01 16:14:15 <Fougner> DocScrutinizer2, oh, sorry haha
Dec 01 16:14:24 <Dave> It's... it's... it's a 22000µF cap!
Dec 01 16:14:35 <DocScrutinizer2> lol
Dec 01 16:14:43 * Dave claps
Dec 01 16:15:01 <DocScrutinizer2> 22mF, quite decent, yeah
Dec 01 16:15:18 <Dave> :]
Dec 01 16:15:45 <Dave> Joerg, it's surprising how expensive large capacity caps can be :|
Dec 01 16:15:49 <DocScrutinizer2> should suggest a rework, just to see the reactions :)
Dec 01 16:15:54 <Dave> I make a habit not to drop them in the lab :D
Dec 01 16:15:58 <Dave> haha
Dec 01 16:17:14 <Dave> Now, if only my 33mF caps could fit in the phone... ;p
Dec 01 16:18:02 <DocScrutinizer2> would fix buzz and boot w/o bat same time - lol
Dec 01 16:18:45 <Dave> :D
Dec 01 16:19:03 <DocScrutinizer2> well, at least those are fixed issues anyway
Dec 01 16:19:04 <Dave> but I'd have a huge cap strapped to the back of it ;p
Dec 01 16:19:08 <Dave> yeah
Dec 01 16:19:52 <DocScrutinizer2> funny enough, both need a 100uF
Dec 01 16:20:00 <Dave> hmm
Dec 01 16:20:12 <Dave> interesting
Dec 01 16:20:17 <Dave> you tested, right?
Dec 01 16:20:32 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 01 16:20:39 <Dave> you don't need bigger? :)
Dec 01 16:21:25 <DocScrutinizer2> hey ninex, don't find the right leetspeak?
Dec 01 16:21:42 <Dave> hah
Dec 01 16:25:36 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: a couple of 10uF/400V soldered parallel are much more fun when shorting than a 22mF :] 
Dec 01 16:31:59 <bumbl> henk: suse is german too
Dec 01 16:33:02 <Dave> :D
Dec 01 16:33:35 <bumbl> ahh
Dec 01 16:33:42 <bumbl> I am a bit behind in reading up
Dec 01 16:34:30 <Fougner> DAVE!
Dec 01 16:54:24 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: yeah SuSE is ~1000m away from my flat
Dec 01 16:57:08 <bumbl> DocScrutinizer: really ... nice
Dec 01 17:01:38 <Fougner> haha, DocScrutinizer that's cool
Dec 01 17:06:48 <Fougner> why can't I resume from suspend in the latest OM-testing? ^^
Dec 01 17:16:33 <Zorkman> i can ping every site (on host and on Fr) but i can't ping www.bearstech.com, although it seems everybody else can....
Dec 01 17:16:40 <Zorkman> anybody have an explanation for this?
Dec 01 17:17:13 <Fougner> Zorkman, someone's hacked you xD
Dec 01 17:18:18 <bumbl> Zorkman: your providers dns server is out of date
Dec 01 17:19:15 <bumbl> try to ping 193.84.18.51
Dec 01 17:20:59 <slaxxin> yay
Dec 01 17:21:33 <Zorkman> root@om-gta02 ~ $ ping 193.84.18.51
Dec 01 17:21:33 <Zorkman> PING 193.84.18.51 (193.84.18.51): 56 data bytes
Dec 01 17:21:33 <Zorkman> ping: sendto: Network is unreachable
Dec 01 17:21:41 <slaxxin> wow
Dec 01 17:22:09 <slaxxin> surly no caps
Dec 01 17:22:38 <bumbl> hmmm
Dec 01 17:22:59 <slaxxin> this would be the place to find very good hackers:)
Dec 01 17:24:10 <slaxxin> vewy vewy good hackers
Dec 01 17:25:57 <Fougner> slaxxin, yeaaaaah
Dec 01 17:27:51 <paulproteus> Zorkman, What if you try to traceroute there?
Dec 01 17:27:57 <paulproteus> It's probably an inter-ISP routing issue.
Dec 01 17:28:11 <paulproteus> You could try other IPs in the same netblock and discover you can't reach them, either.
Dec 01 17:29:28 <Zorkman> ping 193.84.18.51 works now
Dec 01 17:37:04 <Zorkman> bah
Dec 01 17:37:28 <Zorkman> i edited my opkg to http://193.84.18.51/shr-testing/ipk/all/Packages.gz but that doesn't work
Dec 01 17:37:37 <Zorkman> is there a way i can update?
Dec 01 17:38:09 <bumbl> don't upgrade
Dec 01 17:38:11 <bumbl> :p
Dec 01 17:38:32 <Zorkman> why not? it's already unusable :p
Dec 01 17:39:11 <bumbl> :p
Dec 01 17:39:54 <gromez> don't use the IP but DNS
Dec 01 17:40:05 <gromez> Zorkman: http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-testing/ipk/all/Packages.gz
Dec 01 17:40:09 <gromez> it works
Dec 01 17:40:19 <Zorkman> it doesn't work for me gromez
Dec 01 17:40:21 <bumbl> gromez: not for Zorkman 
Dec 01 17:40:37 <bumbl> it seems as if his isp has some problems
Dec 01 17:40:38 <gromez> try with opendns
Dec 01 17:40:49 <bumbl> gromez: it would work with the ip
Dec 01 17:41:12 <bumbl> opendns can't do magic and make an unreachable network reachable
Dec 01 17:41:22 <gromez> bumbl: no, if shr.bearstech.com is a vhost, it should not work...
Dec 01 17:41:56 <bumbl> Zorkman: opkg update; opkg upgrade does not output anything
Dec 01 17:43:23 <Zorkman> bumbl: nope, it just says "failed to download" and for open dns, i have nameserver 208.67.222.222
Dec 01 17:43:23 <Zorkman> nameserver 208.67.220.220
Dec 01 17:43:33 <Zorkman> aren't those opendns servers already?
Dec 01 17:44:02 <slaxxin> can u go anywhere at all?
Dec 01 17:44:20 <bumbl> no Zorkman: you don't need to try
Dec 01 17:44:33 <bumbl> nothing to upgrade
Dec 01 17:44:34 <bumbl> here
Dec 01 17:44:54 <bumbl> and the last time I upgraded was on saturday
Dec 01 17:45:01 <Zorkman> slaxxin: i can reach everything i try, except bearstech
Dec 01 17:45:10 <Zorkman> ok thanks bumbl
Dec 01 17:45:27 <Zorkman> anyway, once there is a new android image i'll try it i think; just can't use SHR as a phone anymore
Dec 01 17:45:30 <slaxxin> how about hosts,deny?
Dec 01 17:46:02 <bumbl> Zorkman: why not?
Dec 01 17:46:23 <Zorkman> bumbl: it eats my sms'es
Dec 01 17:46:48 <Zorkman> it wakes from suspend, i get a notification about "new sms", but i can't read the text, it just doesn't appear, also not in the messages app
Dec 01 17:46:59 <Zorkman> when i put my sim in a 'normal' cellphone, i can read them
Dec 01 17:47:13 <bumbl> ?
Dec 01 17:47:16 <Zorkman> (it doesn't happen all the time, but lately it's been like 7/10 times it eats the sms)
Dec 01 17:47:20 <bumbl> I never got that
Dec 01 17:47:26 <Zorkman> i can also only store 20sms's on my sim
Dec 01 17:47:53 <Zorkman> and it stores the sent messages, so after a while my simcard is full, and i can't delete the sent sms; so i have to put it again in a different phone
Dec 01 17:48:22 <bumbl> hehe that's bad
Dec 01 17:48:31 <bumbl> I can store plenty of sms on my sim card
Dec 01 17:50:36 <Zorkman> did the gps worked in the previous release of android?
Dec 01 17:51:37 <gromez> there was a gps app in the previous release ?
Dec 01 17:52:32 <bumbl> gromez: google maps
Dec 01 17:54:17 <Zorkman> bumbl; could it be used offline? i guess not
Dec 01 17:54:35 <lindi-> is wiki down?
Dec 01 17:54:41 <lindi-> blah, wrong project ;)
Dec 01 17:55:02 <bumbl> Zorkman: google + offline = impossible
Dec 01 17:55:14 <Zorkman> it could cache the tiles
Dec 01 17:55:18 <Zorkman> like tangogps...
Dec 01 17:57:23 <Fougner> exactley!
Dec 01 17:58:14 <Fougner> one thing I really would like TangoGPS to have, is the possibility to download all the zoom-levels at once
Dec 01 17:58:24 <Fougner> not just +1, or +2, or +3, or +4 
Dec 01 17:59:12 <SpeedEvil> Umm...
Dec 01 17:59:23 <SpeedEvil> You do realise you're saying you want to download some terabytes?
Dec 01 18:00:04 <bumbl> that wouldn't be google
Dec 01 18:00:06 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, that depends on the area, right
Dec 01 18:00:26 <SpeedEvil> Fougner: if you want to download all zoom levels at once globally
Dec 01 18:00:33 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, lol, nooo
Dec 01 18:00:36 <Fougner> not globally
Dec 01 18:00:36 <Fougner> hahah
Dec 01 18:00:37 <SpeedEvil> you can download to a given depth from the current view
Dec 01 18:00:39 <Fougner> of course not
Dec 01 18:00:44 <SpeedEvil> for example, 5 levels deeper
Dec 01 18:00:59 <SpeedEvil> which gives you 2^2n tiles
Dec 01 18:01:03 <Fougner> you sure it's not ONLY +5 levels from the view?
Dec 01 18:01:23 <SpeedEvil> ?
Dec 01 18:01:35 <Fougner> "download TO a given depth"
Dec 01 18:01:39 <Zorkman> some android news on community list
Dec 01 18:01:43 <SpeedEvil> If you're zoomed into level 4, you click 'download 3 levels' and it downloads 5,6,7,8
Dec 01 18:01:44 <Fougner> sounds to me you mean this
Dec 01 18:01:46 <SpeedEvil> If you're zoomed into level 4, you click 'download 3 levels' and it downloads 5,6,7
Dec 01 18:01:57 <SpeedEvil> which is 8^2 tiles
Dec 01 18:02:01 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, you sure+
Dec 01 18:02:02 <Fougner> ?*
Dec 01 18:02:07 <Fougner> not just 7?
Dec 01 18:02:12 <SpeedEvil> err
Dec 01 18:02:15 <SpeedEvil> 7^2
Dec 01 18:02:17 <SpeedEvil> sigh
Dec 01 18:02:41 <Fougner> err
Dec 01 18:02:52 <SpeedEvil> level 5 is 4 tiles, 5 is 16, 6 is 64
Dec 01 18:02:58 <Fougner> I thought the tiles were individually rendered pics
Dec 01 18:03:03 <SpeedEvil> they are
Dec 01 18:03:34 <SpeedEvil> you download 3 deepeer than a given view, and it fetches the tiles that comprise that view at that zoom level.
Dec 01 18:04:01 <SpeedEvil> as the zoom doubles every level, then zooming once multiplies the number of tiles per area by 4
Dec 01 18:04:23 <SpeedEvil> Anyway, you don't want that.
Dec 01 18:04:38 <SpeedEvil> What you really want is a nice renderer that renders from compressed OSM data in some form.
Dec 01 18:04:51 <SpeedEvil> And supports dynamic updates.
Dec 01 18:04:56 <SpeedEvil> But I don't think that exists.
Dec 01 18:05:04 <Fougner> SpeedEvil, but TangoGPS does not do that,exactley
Dec 01 18:05:07 <Fougner> too bad =(
Dec 01 18:05:22 <Fougner> but, when I'm in zoom level 10 and downloads +6
Dec 01 18:05:56 <SpeedEvil> I think the top level is 16
Dec 01 18:05:56 <Fougner> I'll get zoom level 10-16 in that area?
Dec 01 18:05:56 <Dave> Get a SDHC which can hold the entire world!
Dec 01 18:05:56 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 01 18:05:58 <Fougner> no
Dec 01 18:05:58 <Fougner> 17
Dec 01 18:05:58 <Fougner> =)
Dec 01 18:05:58 <SpeedEvil> the visible area
Dec 01 18:05:59 <Fougner> well
Dec 01 18:06:04 <SpeedEvil> Dave: where can I buy this several terabyte SD?
Dec 01 18:06:11 <Dave> Dude it's not that much.
Dec 01 18:06:18 <Dave> Some people here have already done it
Dec 01 18:06:22 <Fougner> I've downloaded a lot.. at least it feels like that.. and I've only used a few hundred MBs
Dec 01 18:06:55 <Dave> it's funny because most of it is useless ocean :D
Dec 01 18:07:01 <Dave> haw
Dec 01 18:12:46 <nicfer> would be there a separate project of openmoko to cover low-end phones? (like my sony ericsson w200)
Dec 01 18:12:54 <bumbl> hmm tangogps + routing function would be cool
Dec 01 18:13:36 <bumbl> no rendering but routing with the vector cards
Dec 01 18:14:40 <bumbl> which will be displayed using an overlay
Dec 01 18:19:27 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: the fundamental problem is that lower end phones don't run linux.
Dec 01 18:19:34 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: Or are not capable of it
Dec 01 18:19:51 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: this raises _enormously_ the burden of writing a new software packager
Dec 01 18:21:18 <Fougner> hehe
Dec 01 18:21:24 <Fougner> linux on my G900 xD
Dec 01 18:23:49 <nicfer> oh, for those phones we'll need a dedicated kernel right?
Dec 01 18:26:13 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: to an extent, probably.
Dec 01 18:26:23 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: the other problem is a generic stack is much harder.
Dec 01 18:26:24 <b0ib0t2> wonder if i could get linux on my old blackberry
Dec 01 18:26:48 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: for example, for every phone, you need to work out how to load software on it. This may be very hard in some cases. 
Dec 01 18:27:05 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: then you need to write drivers, possibly for chips with no published data at all.
Dec 01 18:27:31 <mwester> nicfer: that's rather like saying that in order to make a bicycle function as a spacecraft, it would need a dedicated engine...  there's rather a lot more too it than the kernel.
Dec 01 18:27:34 <DocScrutinizer2> gnnnaaaah.
Dec 01 18:27:35 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: and in many of the low-end phones cases, the GSM chip also runs the applications. This means that you need to do hard-real-time.
Dec 01 18:27:40 <Fougner> nicfer, probably linux on a low-end sonyericsson is a dream only =)
Dec 01 18:27:48 <bricode> b0ib0t2: I would be surprised if you could. RIM does interesting work in tightly integrating their h/w and OS.
Dec 01 18:27:53 <mwester> Not to mention pointless.
Dec 01 18:28:10 <mwester> What could it do that the existing software doesn't do?
Dec 01 18:28:30 <mwester> best to expend the effort on the family of smartphones that are more interesting...
Dec 01 18:28:42 <SpeedEvil> That too.
Dec 01 18:28:59 <SpeedEvil> Though look at the thousands of apps that palm OS has.
Dec 01 18:29:48 <DocScrutinizer2> look at the emu they have for maemo
Dec 01 18:29:49 <SpeedEvil> The original palm that is.
Dec 01 18:29:56 <Fougner> I mean, there's no reason to make linux work on a w200 for example
Dec 01 18:30:36 <Fougner> extremely small screen, a numeric keyboard, nothing else..
Dec 01 18:30:49 <Fougner> hopeless to get something running on it xD
Dec 01 18:30:57 <SpeedEvil> I disagree - somewhat.
Dec 01 18:31:11 <b0ib0t2> i have heard that many times... that there is no point
Dec 01 18:31:13 <b0ib0t2> funny
Dec 01 18:31:20 <SpeedEvil> If you could make it an effort that was portable - then there is a big point.
Dec 01 18:31:22 <Fougner> okay, nothing is impossible, but anyway
Dec 01 18:31:42 <b0ib0t2> does there need to be a point?
Dec 01 18:31:45 <SpeedEvil> If you're doing it for one phone - then no
Dec 01 18:31:52 <nicfer> oh, because I thought if there are open firmwares for portable media players why not for phones?
Dec 01 18:31:54 <Fougner> b0ib0t2, nope
Dec 01 18:32:07 <SpeedEvil> Consider the thousands of apps from the early palm days that could work on that sort of phone with numeric input for example.
Dec 01 18:32:10 <Fougner> nicfer, you've got a point there
Dec 01 18:32:15 <Fougner> a small one
Dec 01 18:32:15 <b0ib0t2> the point i supposed would be that it would be a fantastic learning experience :D
Dec 01 18:32:20 <SpeedEvil> nicfer: for one or two brands of music players
Dec 01 18:32:36 <mb___> if I have a patch to openmoko's openembedded, where to send it to for inclusion?
Dec 01 18:32:44 <Fougner> b0ib0t2, hackers sometimes do things, because they can..
Dec 01 18:32:47 <slaxxin> maybe because of the FCC
Dec 01 18:33:15 <Fougner> slaxxin, say what? :P
Dec 01 18:33:35 <mwester> mb___:  you could email it to the distro (or kernel) list, but if the patch fixes a problem, you can open a bug on the Openmoko bug tracker.
Dec 01 18:33:55 <mb___> It fixes compilation on ppc64.
Dec 01 18:34:29 <mb___> I think I'll send it to the list. (I don't like bug trackers very much :P)
Dec 01 18:35:53 <mb___> rwhitby: Huge thanks for the makefile, btw.
Dec 01 18:51:45 <Fougner> where can I get the new android image? ^^
Dec 01 18:55:18 <Dave> You don't.
Dec 01 18:55:20 <Dave> It gets you!
Dec 01 18:55:37 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 01 19:02:23 <Zorkman> Fougner: it's not there yet i think
Dec 01 19:02:40 <Fougner> Zorkman, oh =(
Dec 01 19:02:46 <Fougner> Shhh, jonkristian is here
Dec 01 19:09:17 <CVirus> http://events.nokia.com/countdown/
Dec 01 19:12:06 <tuxi> CVirus: what happens then?
Dec 01 19:12:19 <CVirus> we'll wait and see :-)
Dec 01 19:13:20 <pieterc> it's the conference of nokia
Dec 01 19:13:21 <pieterc> no?
Dec 01 19:13:38 <igor321> it should be
Dec 01 19:13:55 <igor321> but they'll also announce some bombass linux-powered shiny products
Dec 01 19:14:05 <igor321> one can only hope :)
Dec 01 19:14:42 <Zorkman> i think it'll be the n82
Dec 01 19:15:08 <igor321> yeah, or 83
Dec 01 19:17:32 <sda00> hi guys, sorry to bother, one question: is 'enlightenment_remote' available along with 'illume' gui config? thanks.
Dec 01 19:24:02 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r8b127a215ec5 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): tichy: This project moved from svn to git, catch up
Dec 01 19:35:00 <henk> bumbl: yes, but i'm not sure if you can call that opensource software...
Dec 01 19:37:43 <Zorkman> TAsn: siglaunchd is Most Active This Week on projects.openmoko.org, congrats :)
Dec 01 19:38:02 <pieterc> http://koolu.com/images/stories/WEphone_builtin_lg.jpg ==> ... wth?
Dec 01 19:41:20 <TAsn> Zorkman, hehe yeah, I saw it ;]
Dec 01 19:41:28 <TAsn> though I'm the only one active
Dec 01 19:41:34 <doc|home> pieterc: o.O
Dec 01 19:41:36 <TAsn> people don't post bugs/suggestions ;]
Dec 01 19:41:54 <TAsn> I think I should rewrite it in c soon enough
Dec 01 19:42:57 <TAsn> pieterc, it's cool except for the mac design ;]
Dec 01 19:43:16 <pieterc> It's the 'next version' according to koolu ;)
Dec 01 19:43:30 <pieterc> http://koolu.com/News/Koolu-News.html
Dec 01 19:52:18 * balrog-kun wonders if ericthefish is a relative of Eric The Half-bee
Dec 01 19:52:48 <ericthefish> half a bee is not a bee ;)
Dec 01 19:54:15 <balrog-kun> yes, due to some ancient injury :p
Dec 01 20:02:26 <jonkristian> Hey gang
Dec 01 20:02:32 <jonkristian> Anything new in the horizon?
Dec 01 20:03:59 <Zorkman> ANDROID
Dec 01 20:04:15 <jonkristian> orly?
Dec 01 20:04:40 <jonkristian> i did an opkg update/upgrade right now in shr, nothing/nada/zip :/
Dec 01 20:04:59 <Zorkman> if you use a good looking glass i think you might catch a glance of it on the horizon :)
Dec 01 20:05:23 <Zorkman> i can no longer reach bearstech.com, but my informants tell me there has been no updates since saterday
Dec 01 20:05:46 <Zorkman> a military action of the Conch Republic might have something to do with it
Dec 01 20:06:53 <jonkristian> ah
Dec 01 20:08:58 <Sargun> Who are these bears tech people?
Dec 01 20:09:14 <Sargun> and why do they sound criminal?
Dec 01 20:09:43 <igor321> you don't wanna mess with those guys, man
Dec 01 20:09:55 <Batchy> those are openmoko's resellers in france
Dec 01 20:10:02 <bumbl_> Sargun: they are a shop
Dec 01 20:10:05 <Zorkman> Sargun: change your nick and location because they are crazy mofo's!
Dec 01 20:10:09 <bumbl_> www.bearstech.com
Dec 01 20:10:16 <Zorkman> I bought two FR at bearstech
Dec 01 20:10:58 <Zorkman> they're loaded with guns'shit, drugs, you know... and miniature terrorists
Dec 01 20:11:18 <Sargun> haha
Dec 01 20:11:19 <jonkristian> with bombs
Dec 01 20:11:26 <emsyr> I've bought mine from bearstech too.
Dec 01 20:11:49 <Zorkman> emsyr: step away from it, slowly!
Dec 01 20:12:21 <jonkristian> don't push the round one
Dec 01 20:12:32 <emsyr> Zorkman: what do you mean?
Dec 01 20:13:09 <Zorkman> that those freerunners are rigged!
Dec 01 20:13:28 <emsyr> I already got mine.
Dec 01 20:13:48 <Zorkman> they removed glamo bandwith to put it more uranium
Dec 01 20:13:56 <Zorkman> s/it/in
Dec 01 20:15:09 <emsyr> There is no return:-[
Dec 01 20:25:27 <emsyr> Zorkman: have you get the FRs?
Dec 01 20:26:04 <Zorkman> yeah, somewhere in july
Dec 01 20:26:22 <Zorkman> one had a broken gps, they sent a new one
Dec 01 20:33:12 <henk> how can i prevent a module from being loaded? (apart from deleting it)
Dec 01 20:33:23 <henk> in om2008.9
Dec 01 20:33:59 <bipak_> a kernel module? 
Dec 01 20:34:07 <bipak_> afaik there is no kernel module loaded
Dec 01 20:34:09 <henk> yes
Dec 01 20:34:20 <bipak_> its all compiled in
Dec 01 20:34:20 <henk> oh, sorry... it's fdom
Dec 01 20:34:32 <henk> damn, i wanted to reflash to latest om
Dec 01 20:34:38 <bipak_> :)
Dec 01 20:34:41 <bipak_> hmm dunno
Dec 01 20:34:50 <bipak_> grep for it in /etc/*
Dec 01 20:35:20 <henk> i think it's loaded by gesd from accelges... evbug, event interface debugging for the accelerometers.
Dec 01 20:35:24 <henk> i did, nothing though.
Dec 01 20:38:52 <Zoup> keywords  Om2008.11 added on  trac means they are going to fix on  2008.11 ? :))
Dec 01 20:39:08 <Zoup> i wonder if http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1662 is still an issue
Dec 01 21:32:25 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r25f5ec7a66d5 10/ (5 files in 4 dirs): bind: Add bind version 9.3.6
Dec 01 21:32:26 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r30985fab978d 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-feed.bb: task-openmoko-feed: Add bind-utils to the feed
Dec 01 21:48:27 * quatrox trying to boot with Qi but nothing happens
Dec 01 22:01:26 <abatrour> hey, can anyone help me? I'm trying to update my u-boot so i can boot off ext2, but it doesn't update
Dec 01 22:01:48 <quatrox> abatrour: yes?
Dec 01 22:01:52 <tifereth> can't you boot from ext2 with the shipped uboot?
Dec 01 22:02:13 <abatrour> but i just said im trying to update my uboot to do so..
Dec 01 22:02:18 <abatrour> i read that its possible
Dec 01 22:02:20 <quatrox> tifereth: no, only fat
Dec 01 22:02:56 <abatrour> well then the script to install debian is retarded cause it automatically formats the partition for me
Dec 01 22:03:29 <quatrox> abatrour: what exactly do you need help with?
Dec 01 22:04:16 <abatrour> i have tried booting into nor and nand to flash the uboot, my nor wont update but my nand does
Dec 01 22:04:27 <abatrour> but i still cant boot off my my microsd card
Dec 01 22:05:30 <quatrox> abatrour: you need a debug board in order to update nor
Dec 01 22:05:37 <quatrox> nor is backup only
Dec 01 22:05:39 <abatrour> basically, i just finished following the guide to install debian on my microsd card, it finished, but it says it cant find uImage on the partition
Dec 01 22:06:08 <abatrour> i read updating the uboot allows for booting off of ext2 instead of just fat16, but it still doesn't allow me
Dec 01 22:06:19 <quatrox> do you have /boot/uImage.bin on the first partition?
Dec 01 22:07:03 <abatrour> the debian script doesn't automatically do it? 
Dec 01 22:07:04 <quatrox> abatrour, in order to boot from ext2, you must modify the u-boot env
Dec 01 22:07:34 <quatrox> I never tried the debian distro
Dec 01 22:07:41 <quatrox> but I guess it does
Dec 01 22:08:03 <quatrox> but why do you need ext2?
Dec 01 22:08:25 <abatrour> thats the way the debian script does it
Dec 01 22:08:32 <quatrox> ahh
Dec 01 22:08:35 <abatrour> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner
Dec 01 22:10:15 <quatrox> ahh... it only uses on partition
Dec 01 22:10:58 <quatrox> I will see if I can create a env-file
Dec 01 22:11:54 <abatrour> i really dislike that guide lol, halfway down the page, it tells u how to run the install so it makes a small fat partition at the beginning.....
Dec 01 22:12:05 <abatrour> like wtf, that should be at the very beginning
Dec 01 22:12:25 <abatrour> its so nice to read that AFTER doing an hour long install :P
Dec 01 22:12:26 <lindi-> abatrour: fat is not supported afaik
Dec 01 22:12:35 <lindi-> abatrour: it does not do symlinks
Dec 01 22:12:44 <lindi-> abatrour: and the kernel packages will make symlinks in the future
Dec 01 22:12:54 <quatrox> lindi-: fat is supported for uboot by default
Dec 01 22:13:04 <lindi-> quatrox: for uboot yes but not for debian
Dec 01 22:13:15 <abatrour> "Set boot partition to be vfat by running SD_PART1_FS=vfat ./install.sh all. Now you do not need to mess with modifying U-Boot's default setup,"
Dec 01 22:13:30 <lindi-> abatrour: but that is not good in long-term
Dec 01 22:13:38 <abatrour> im going to edit the guide, its just plain stupid
Dec 01 22:13:49 <lindi-> abatrour: symlinks are stupid?
Dec 01 22:13:59 <abatrour> it makes an 8mb partition for uimage, then the rest is ext2
Dec 01 22:14:04 <abatrour> ext2 for debian
Dec 01 22:14:13 <quatrox> that is logic
Dec 01 22:14:20 <quatrox> it is the easiest way
Dec 01 22:14:23 <lindi-> abatrour: please don't, pkg-fso-maint mailing list is getting mail about people using vfat for /boot and failing kernel upgrades
Dec 01 22:14:27 <abatrour> but why they tell u that AFTERWARDS is just dumb
Dec 01 22:14:38 <abatrour> so now i have to do it all over again :P
Dec 01 22:14:50 <abatrour> oh man
Dec 01 22:15:00 <lindi-> i think we better just remove vfat instructions from that page
Dec 01 22:15:20 <abatrour> well then someone needs to make a new u-boot that has already been edited
Dec 01 22:15:35 <lindi-> install.sh can modify uboot env
Dec 01 22:15:44 <quatrox> abatrour: you basically have two options:
Dec 01 22:15:44 <quatrox> a) edit the uboot env to boot from ext2
Dec 01 22:15:44 <quatrox> b) create a fat boot partition
Dec 01 22:16:11 <lindi-> where a) is the one that will work in the future
Dec 01 22:16:23 <quatrox> :)
Dec 01 22:16:54 <abatrour> yeah i read that, option a is the best, and i dont see why its not in the u-boot by default, people shouldn't have to "hack" it
Dec 01 22:17:11 <lindi-> abatrour: what is "by default"?
Dec 01 22:17:23 <lindi-> from factory?
Dec 01 22:17:49 <lindi-> abatrour: maybe older uboot did not do ext2?
Dec 01 22:17:57 <abatrour> no, i mean built into the latest u-boot image
Dec 01 22:18:11 <lindi-> but configuration is in a different partition
Dec 01 22:18:16 <lindi-> than the uboot binary
Dec 01 22:18:59 <abatrour> so theres a u-boot, uImage, rootfs, and an extra configuration partition?
Dec 01 22:19:01 <lindi-> mtd1: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot"
Dec 01 22:19:01 <lindi-> mtd2: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot_env"
Dec 01 22:19:08 <lindi-> mtd3: 00800000 00020000 "kernel"
Dec 01 22:19:08 <lindi-> mtd4: 000a0000 00020000 "splash"
Dec 01 22:19:15 <lindi-> mtd5: 00040000 00020000 "factory"
Dec 01 22:19:15 <lindi-> mtd6: 0f6a0000 00020000 "rootfs"
Dec 01 22:19:19 <abatrour> i would follow the guide for editing the u-boot but my ubuntu notebook is dead :(
Dec 01 22:19:26 <abatrour> hmm
Dec 01 22:19:52 <lindi-> abatrour: if you "upgrade uboot" by writing to "mtd1" then obviously you are not changing the configuration in "mtd2"
Dec 01 22:20:23 <abatrour> yeah, i didn't know there was a seperate partition for the config, i thought it was stored in the u-boot image
Dec 01 22:20:33 <lindi-> that'd be quite inefficient ;)
Dec 01 22:20:40 <abatrour> how so?
Dec 01 22:21:19 <lindi-> well, if power was lost while you were changing uboot configuration then the boot loader would be lost too?
Dec 01 22:21:19 <abatrour> instead of just updating the u-boot, i have to update the u-boot and also the config
Dec 01 22:21:34 <lindi-> horrible, what if i want to have my own configuration?
Dec 01 22:21:45 <lindi-> i don't want it to be overwritten on upgrade
Dec 01 22:21:51 <abatrour> i thought thats what nor was for, like a backup bootloader
Dec 01 22:21:56 <lindi-> in fact, i have several custom uboot entries
Dec 01 22:22:03 <abatrour> ah
Dec 01 22:22:25 <abatrour> now i just gotta figure out how to edit the entries from vista or my phone...
Dec 01 22:23:05 <lindi-> i use http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/configure-uboot k
Dec 01 22:23:30 <lindi-> (parts stolen from install.sh)
Dec 01 22:24:03 * spydon barks @ vista...
Dec 01 22:24:06 <abatrour> yeah, i dont even know where to begin on that lol
Dec 01 22:24:40 <abatrour> there isn't an already made "config" that i can just dfu-util onto it?
Dec 01 22:26:37 <lindi-> afaik not
Dec 01 22:27:02 <abatrour> maybe i should just try qi
Dec 01 22:27:15 <lindi-> have fun :P
Dec 01 22:27:30 <abatrour> yeah, i just dont know which version i need, there are 3
Dec 01 22:31:02 * abatrour wants to kill his phone
Dec 01 22:33:58 <jc> hullo
Dec 01 22:34:02 <abatrour> hey
Dec 01 22:34:23 <jc> anyone from czech republic using a neo phone? :)
Dec 01 22:44:01 <quatrox> abatrour: do you need help with the environments?
Dec 01 22:45:35 <abatrour> sure
Dec 01 22:45:47 <abatrour> i started reinstalling it anyways though
Dec 01 22:45:52 <abatrour> with the fat at the beginning
Dec 01 22:46:17 <abatrour> the factory phones should be updated with an ext2 entry in the uboot env
Dec 01 22:46:27 <abatrour> have fat+ext2 and ext2
Dec 01 22:47:50 <mwester> abatrour:  the problem will go away, for better or worse, as the gta03 will have qi as a bootloader, and will have no environment options at all.
Dec 01 22:48:10 <abatrour> yeah, but that means i need to buy a gta3 ;)
Dec 01 22:48:44 <mwester> Or you could enjoy the pain early, and flash qi onto your gta02.
Dec 01 22:48:53 <abatrour> in a perfect world we wont need to boot off the sdcard though
Dec 01 22:48:54 <mwester> But I wouldn't recommend it.
Dec 01 22:49:13 <abatrour> i tried flashing qi on it, says it wasn't designed for it or something, i probably did something wrong
Dec 01 22:49:14 <mwester> abatrour:  booting off the sd card is the preferred way with Qi.
Dec 01 22:49:47 <mwester> NAND flash in devices like the FR is going the way of the dinosaur; sd cards are much more practical and lower cost.
Dec 01 22:50:09 <abatrour> i mean, what i said about not booting off sdcard, dont sdcards take more power than internal flash?
Dec 01 22:50:37 <abatrour> flash is great for a fallback, like factory reset/defaults
Dec 01 22:51:14 <quatrox> abatrour: you can get the env-file from http://om.quatrox.org/om/env.new
Dec 01 22:51:18 <jc> I see gta02 is already about to phase out ?
Dec 01 22:51:25 <abatrour> and not to mention wouldn't booting off internal flash be better for glamo too? save some bandwidth
Dec 01 22:51:32 <mwester> Right.  a small amount of flash for a rescue kernel/rootfs -- just enough to boot it up so that you can ssh into it and patch up your sd card.
Dec 01 22:51:36 <abatrour> cool thanks quatrox
Dec 01 22:51:55 <quatrox> no problem
Dec 01 22:51:59 <mwester> jc:  doubtful.  no dates for the gta03 have been announced at all.
Dec 01 22:52:17 <quatrox> mwester: I tried Qi
Dec 01 22:52:32 <mwester> but did you inhale?
Dec 01 22:52:38 <quatrox> my GTA will not boot
Dec 01 22:52:42 <quatrox> no lights
Dec 01 22:52:44 <quatrox> nothing
Dec 01 22:52:46 <mwester> Take out the SIM card.
Dec 01 22:52:51 <quatrox> no sim
Dec 01 22:52:52 <mwester> seriously.
Dec 01 22:52:55 <mwester> that's bad.
Dec 01 22:53:10 <quatrox> but it boots fine with uboot
Dec 01 22:53:18 <quatrox> not sure what I did wrong
Dec 01 22:53:20 <mwester> Let someone on the kernel mailing list know about that.
Dec 01 22:53:38 <mwester> It should be foolproof; there's nothing to it so it's supposed to be simple.
Dec 01 22:53:46 <mwester> (but it has some bugs yet)
Dec 01 22:53:50 <abatrour> quat, is there a wiki on how to update the uboot env? is it the same procedure as flashing any other partition?
Dec 01 22:54:26 <quatrox> mwester: This is the correct image, right?
Dec 01 22:54:26 <quatrox> http://people.openmoko.org/andy/qi-s3c6410-master_2ad3ce6ff57753e3.udfu
Dec 01 22:54:54 <SpeedEvil> Quadduc: no
Dec 01 22:55:15 <SpeedEvil> quatrox: that'll be for the GTA04 I think - the 6410 isn't in the 03
Dec 01 22:55:20 <quatrox> abatrour: see http://om.quatrox.org/om/
Dec 01 22:55:21 <SpeedEvil> (unless the name is confusing me)
Dec 01 22:55:34 <abatrour> for me i needed s3c2410
Dec 01 22:55:52 <jc> do you know about some opengl tech demos for the glamo?
Dec 01 22:55:53 <quatrox> SpeedEvil: aha... I confused it because I read so much about it
Dec 01 22:56:08 <quatrox> I will try with the correct one
Dec 01 22:57:04 <quatrox> abatrour: try to see if you understand http://om.quatrox.org/om/frm_gta02_env.sh
Dec 01 22:57:11 <abatrour> when i tried to install it, it gave me an error, wouldn't work
Dec 01 22:57:28 <quatrox> what was the error?
Dec 01 22:57:35 <quatrox> crc?
Dec 01 22:58:11 <henk> i installed todays Om-testing build and the qwerty-button in the top shelf is missing. how can i get it back?
Dec 01 22:58:35 <abatrour> i cant remember what it ways, not a crc error, something about it not being designed for it or something
Dec 01 22:59:11 <sicu> i thought GTA02 had S3C2442B
Dec 01 22:59:25 <abatrour> i ran dfu-util.exe -a u-boot -R -D qi_s3c2410...
Dec 01 22:59:52 <abatrour> i just ran dmseg and it said 2410 for me in there somewhere
Dec 01 23:00:20 <sicu> in any case, just check dmesg output to find your version
Dec 01 23:00:29 <sicu> ahh ... that's fine then
Dec 01 23:01:00 <mwester> 2410 is the gta01, 2442 is the gta02, 6410 is the gta03
Dec 01 23:01:19 <abatrour> hmm
Dec 01 23:02:41 <abatrour> oh ok, there are multiple places it states the cpuid
Dec 01 23:03:20 <SpeedEvil> 6410? I thought 6410 was the one with the GPU, that was slated for GTA04. Or have I not been keeping up.
Dec 01 23:04:03 <sicu> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03
Dec 01 23:04:19 <sicu> you havn't been keeping up ;p
Dec 01 23:04:37 <SpeedEvil> fair enough.
Dec 01 23:04:50 <nomeata> Hi. Is someone here from the guys behind http://www.neopwn.com/ ? 
Dec 01 23:04:50 <abatrour> i wonder what the new case will look like
Dec 01 23:04:51 * quatrox is embarrassed that he flashed for wrong uC
Dec 01 23:04:53 <SpeedEvil> I thought GTA03 was a 'out the door as fast as possible' effort.
Dec 01 23:05:07 <sicu> oh noes ... GTA03 has SMEDIA Glamo removed
Dec 01 23:05:09 * sicu cries
Dec 01 23:05:17 <sicu> tears of joy
Dec 01 23:05:39 <SpeedEvil> The graphics of the 6410 are much better than the glamo.
Dec 01 23:06:00 <jc> sibbe, you actually like it ?
Dec 01 23:06:01 <jc> oh...
Dec 01 23:06:08 <SpeedEvil> and on-die, so comms with it are ridiculously faster.
Dec 01 23:06:18 <abatrour> i hope glamo is figured out though, i dont know how much i would want to buy a gta03 if my gta02 doesn't even work decently
Dec 01 23:06:32 <abatrour> i would feel cheated
Dec 01 23:06:43 <jc> I'd love to help with that
Dec 01 23:06:58 <jc> unfortunately I can't find the datasheet anywhere..
Dec 01 23:07:12 <sicu> naughty quatrox for trying to upgrade his SoC by purposely flashing the next level up
Dec 01 23:07:19 <sicu> it doesn't work that way ;p
Dec 01 23:07:22 <abatrour> why does smedia have to be so anal about decent support
Dec 01 23:07:30 <jc> someone said it has some serious bus bottleneck
Dec 01 23:07:43 <jc> If I recall correctly from the schematics, isn't it directly memory mapped ?
Dec 01 23:08:10 <abatrour> i read someone managed to overclock the glamo from 50mhz to 80
Dec 01 23:08:14 <abatrour> is that true?
Dec 01 23:08:25 <jc> does it matter ?
Dec 01 23:08:29 <sicu> i saw that in the ML too
Dec 01 23:08:47 <sicu> not that it matters much ... no
Dec 01 23:08:53 <abatrour> kinda, a slightly faster pos "gpu" is better than a slower pos "gpu" :P
Dec 01 23:09:04 <quatrox> wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii - Qi boots.... need to avoid kernel panic (prob wrong name on the uImage-GTA02.bin...
Dec 01 23:09:13 <jc> so it acquires the bus for a long time ?
Dec 01 23:09:24 <jc> since its a lot slower than the cpu...
Dec 01 23:09:34 <SpeedEvil> basically
Dec 01 23:09:51 <jc> and the nand flashes share the same bus right ?
Dec 01 23:09:55 <SpeedEvil> and the SoC only has one memory bus, so a read/write to it locks it up
Dec 01 23:09:57 <abatrour> wouldn't raising the glamo speed increase the bus?
Dec 01 23:09:59 <jc> that would be bad for i/o health
Dec 01 23:10:00 <SpeedEvil> nand, RAM, ...
Dec 01 23:10:10 <jc> now I get it :)
Dec 01 23:10:16 <jc> unfortunately :/
Dec 01 23:10:39 <quatrox> apt: what is the time?
Dec 01 23:10:39 <jc> so
Dec 01 23:10:41 <apt> quatrox: what are you talking about?
Dec 01 23:10:44 <jc> what about compositing ?
Dec 01 23:11:03 <SpeedEvil> jc: put one layer of green, followed by a layer of brown, and repeat
Dec 01 23:11:20 <jc> SpeedEvil, huh ?
Dec 01 23:13:06 <SpeedEvil> http://www.bestgardening.com/bgc/howto/compost01.htm
Dec 01 23:13:12 * SpeedEvil is probably getting too obscure.
Dec 01 23:13:38 <jc> SpeedEvil, what are you implying ?
Dec 01 23:14:02 <quatrox> arrrg - there must be a mistake at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi
Dec 01 23:14:11 * SpeedEvil was attempting to be humourous, based on the compositing ->composting.
Dec 01 23:14:13 * SpeedEvil fails.
Dec 01 23:14:39 <jc> SpeedEvil oh, I kinda thought you implied I was talking crap or something
Dec 01 23:15:28 * SpeedEvil notes that the GTA03 page history says at the time the GTA03EVBs arrived, it said based on same SoC
Dec 01 23:15:35 <SpeedEvil> Have new dev boards been gotten?
Dec 01 23:16:11 <SpeedEvil> Ah - changed a month ago.
Dec 01 23:17:21 <jc> anyway, is there some kind of summary of what operations is the glamo capable of ?
Dec 01 23:17:45 <quatrox> jc: ask apt
Dec 01 23:18:24 <jc> quatrox, thx
Dec 01 23:18:53 <quatrox> jc: the glamo is great at scaling
Dec 01 23:19:02 <quatrox> rotation, etc
Dec 01 23:19:05 <jc> you mean resizing images and stuff ?
Dec 01 23:19:12 <quatrox> yeah
Dec 01 23:19:30 <SpeedEvil> It also does mpeg-4 decoding 
Dec 01 23:19:32 <SpeedEvil> of some sort
Dec 01 23:19:36 <jc> so it has some kind of texture memory ?
Dec 01 23:19:49 <jc> can it also translate them across the screen ?
Dec 01 23:19:51 <abatrour> but it probably lacks the bandwidth for mp4 videos doesn't it?
Dec 01 23:20:00 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: not a problem
Dec 01 23:20:10 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: sending it an encoded file is cheap in terms of bw
Dec 01 23:20:20 <jc> that would mean compositing is plausible, right ?
Dec 01 23:20:39 <abatrour> kinda like dma?
Dec 01 23:20:47 <abatrour> bad example though
Dec 01 23:20:50 <jc> well if it locks up the bus
Dec 01 23:20:52 <quatrox> jc: the glamo is not too bad
Dec 01 23:21:04 <jc> dma doesn't help with the lockup problem, right ?
Dec 01 23:21:16 <quatrox> nope
Dec 01 23:22:30 <quatrox> but, if you send from wlan or flash to the glamo instead of using the sdcard, you can transfer images faster
Dec 01 23:22:47 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 01 23:23:03 <quatrox> the trick is to preload things into ram
Dec 01 23:23:07 <jc> oh glamo has some sd card interface, its usable for transfering into its memory ?
Dec 01 23:23:20 <jc> does it have a buffer ?
Dec 01 23:23:31 <quatrox> the sdcard is hooked up to the glamo
Dec 01 23:23:35 <quatrox> but, ...
Dec 01 23:23:37 <quatrox> :(
Dec 01 23:24:00 <abatrour> it would have to go down the bus, to the cpu, then back down the bus to the glamo right?
Dec 01 23:24:13 <quatrox> yes
Dec 01 23:24:19 <abatrour> using up more bw
Dec 01 23:24:24 <SpeedEvil> That's not that bad
Dec 01 23:24:31 <SpeedEvil> if you're doing encoded video sending
Dec 01 23:24:38 <jc> well if glamo has its own buffer inside and it can dma stuff from sdcard to it
Dec 01 23:24:42 <SpeedEvil> It only starts to really hurt if you're decoding on the CPU
Dec 01 23:24:43 <quatrox> because we cannot flash the glamo
Dec 01 23:24:44 <SpeedEvil> jc: it can't
Dec 01 23:25:00 <SpeedEvil> jc: or rather - as we understand it, it can't.
Dec 01 23:25:03 <jc> well, it wouldn't be useful anyway, I guess
Dec 01 23:25:20 <quatrox> yes
Dec 01 23:25:30 <SpeedEvil> scatter-gather from blocks of SD to configurable window'd be really nice
Dec 01 23:25:40 <quatrox> jc: but... it has been discussed on the mailing list
Dec 01 23:25:52 <jc> images on sd card would have to be in a format to directly transfer to memory and for glamo to understand it, right ? so like, continuous blocks of raw images
Dec 01 23:26:01 <quatrox> jc: I think we need to focus on what the glamo is good at
Dec 01 23:26:16 <quatrox> we have a 2d driver
Dec 01 23:26:21 <quatrox> and scaling
Dec 01 23:26:26 <jc> do only small large scale redraw operations and issue a lot of control-type ones
Dec 01 23:26:26 <cjb> quatrox: like drawing power?  :)
Dec 01 23:26:29 <SpeedEvil> jc: it can do decoding of mp4
Dec 01 23:26:35 <abatrour> but what image formats does the glamo know natively?
Dec 01 23:27:06 <quatrox> cjb: the glamo has problems because we have so high resolution on the display
Dec 01 23:27:16 <jc> obviously, it should know raw rgb, right? :)
Dec 01 23:27:18 <quatrox> so movies goes slow
Dec 01 23:27:21 <abatrour> the phone doesn't have AA turned on does it?
Dec 01 23:27:41 <quatrox> AA?
Dec 01 23:27:49 <quatrox> I don't know
Dec 01 23:27:50 <abatrour> anti aliasing :P
Dec 01 23:27:53 <jc> the display is so beautiful
Dec 01 23:28:39 <quatrox> did anyone manage to boot Qi without kernel panic?
Dec 01 23:28:50 <jc> well, if it was on a separate bus, you could like have a double framebuffer in ram and continously transfer one to the glamo
Dec 01 23:28:58 <abatrour> quatrox: ill give it a try after i finish installing debian
Dec 01 23:29:06 <quatrox> cool
Dec 01 23:29:56 <abatrour> jc: wouldn't a raw rgb pic use more bandwidth than a compressed image?
Dec 01 23:30:23 <SpeedEvil> jc: it can - and has done a few months ago with a hacked version of mplayer - decoding of mp3
Dec 01 23:30:25 <SpeedEvil> jc: it can - and has done a few months ago with a hacked version of mplayer - decoding of mp4
Dec 01 23:30:32 <abatrour> seeing how we have a slow bus, wouldn't it be best to send compressed images to the glamo to decode?
Dec 01 23:30:32 <quatrox> bmb is much bigger than jpeg
Dec 01 23:30:48 <quatrox> s/bmb/bmp/g
Dec 01 23:30:48 <apt> quatrox meant: bmp is much bigger than jpeg
Dec 01 23:30:50 <jc> abatrour well if glamo knows other formats, of course it would be better
Dec 01 23:31:30 <jc> SpeedEvil, yep I saw that, pretty nifty, I have a hard time understanding mplayer's source though
Dec 01 23:31:56 <jc> abatrour like encode in ram and then send encoded ?
Dec 01 23:31:59 <quatrox> jc: but now you understand it?
Dec 01 23:32:18 <jc> quatrox, unfortunately not
Dec 01 23:32:25 <mjr> ooh, the best idea ever: have the X server generate mpeg4 for the glamo
Dec 01 23:32:39 <jc> isnt it lossy ?
Dec 01 23:32:55 <mjr> and that's only one of the reasons it's the best idea ever
Dec 01 23:33:04 <quatrox> better use the kernel
Dec 01 23:33:04 <jc> like, the interface wouldn't be pixel sharp then
Dec 01 23:33:21 <quatrox> write to the framebuffer
Dec 01 23:33:27 <abatrour> and wouldn't it use the cpu 100% most of the time?
Dec 01 23:33:40 <jc> is it costly to encode mpeg4 on arm9 ?
Dec 01 23:33:41 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 01 23:33:47 <SpeedEvil> jc: hahahahhahahahah
Dec 01 23:33:58 <SpeedEvil> jc: it's a 400MHz processor.
Dec 01 23:33:59 <quatrox> actually we can send low res movies to the glamo
Dec 01 23:34:02 <SpeedEvil> jc: with a teeny cache
Dec 01 23:34:03 <jc> anyway this is 400MHz / 50MHz difference in the access time if I get it correctly /
Dec 01 23:34:03 <quatrox> and it can scale it
Dec 01 23:34:11 <SpeedEvil> jc: and no FPU or MMX
Dec 01 23:34:26 <jc> waaait it doesn't have a fpu ?
Dec 01 23:34:45 <abatrour> dont think so
Dec 01 23:34:48 <quatrox> it is not even a CPU
Dec 01 23:34:50 <SpeedEvil> I know the 2410 doesn't - I'm not 1000% sure of the 2442
Dec 01 23:34:50 <jc> arms don't have mmx, right? only some dsp extensions if I recall correctly..
Dec 01 23:34:53 <quatrox> it is a micro controller
Dec 01 23:34:55 <quatrox> :P
Dec 01 23:34:59 <SpeedEvil> I mean MMX in the generic sense.
Dec 01 23:35:01 <jc> I think its a CPU
Dec 01 23:35:04 <jc> or a SoC
Dec 01 23:35:09 <SpeedEvil> Of multimedia or other extensions.
Dec 01 23:35:43 <SpeedEvil> SIMD or ...
Dec 01 23:35:47 <jc> it can run an OS, natively draws a line between userspace/kernel, has mmu, ...
Dec 01 23:36:00 <jc> I'd call AVR a microcontroller, definitely not an arm, not even ARM7
Dec 01 23:36:01 <abatrour> is glamo capable of doing partial screen updates?
Dec 01 23:36:03 <quatrox> apt: CPU, uC, MPU, ...
Dec 01 23:36:19 <SpeedEvil> jc: there are arm microcontrollers
Dec 01 23:36:28 <abatrour> like if i click a button and only half the screen changes, is glamo smart enough not to waste bandwidth on stuff that hasn't changed?
Dec 01 23:36:29 <SpeedEvil> jc: stm32 forex
Dec 01 23:36:38 <abatrour> because that would save lots of bw
Dec 01 23:36:38 <SpeedEvil> jc: 32 bit, 256K ROM, 20K RAM
Dec 01 23:36:43 <SpeedEvil> jc: no external memory
Dec 01 23:36:43 <jc> like at91sam7sxx ?
Dec 01 23:37:10 <jc> well, maybe those can be considered mcus
Dec 01 23:37:11 <quatrox> abatrour: I think it is
Dec 01 23:37:21 <SpeedEvil> jc: $6
Dec 01 23:37:22 <jc> because of the internal-only memories
Dec 01 23:37:55 <jc> I've worked with these baybies at school, they can do pretty nifty decoding
Dec 01 23:38:16 <jc> and run multiple processess and actually separate them and protect them from stepping on each other
Dec 01 23:38:28 <SpeedEvil> Oh - and the above no mmu
Dec 01 23:38:33 <abatrour> quatrox: you mean it can do "partial screen updates" ?
Dec 01 23:38:49 <jc> no virtual memory, but it can protect individual blocks
Dec 01 23:38:56 <quatrox> I am not sure, but I believe it is possible
Dec 01 23:39:04 <jc> programs have to be precompiled with absolute addressess
Dec 01 23:39:17 <jc> either that or simulate mmu via memory abort interrupts
Dec 01 23:39:39 <quatrox> simulate mmu? No way
Dec 01 23:39:42 <jc> or write position independent code
Dec 01 23:39:50 <jc> I did that on a ds :)
Dec 01 23:40:13 <jc> arm is a load/store architecture with great addressing capabilities
Dec 01 23:40:32 <jc> its actually not such a bottleneck to write pic
Dec 01 23:40:38 <abatrour> jc: u program for the ds? cool. i have a m3 ds real, its a pain :P
Dec 01 23:40:54 <jc> I don't unfortunately
Dec 01 23:41:03 <jc> and yes, its a serious pain
Dec 01 23:41:12 <jc> no docs, very hard to get code running on
Dec 01 23:41:52 <jc> that's why I just tried a few assembly programs on it, enjoyed some drawing on the lcds and got a freerunner :))
Dec 01 23:41:52 <abatrour> anyone know where i can read what the glamo is support to support? and features?
Dec 01 23:42:02 <jc> I'd sooooo love to see some tech demos on the glamo
Dec 01 23:42:05 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: the source?
Dec 01 23:42:58 <abatrour> not the source lol. its not available. i mean stuff like, speed, cache size, hardware supported codecs, etc
Dec 01 23:43:07 <jc> the screen is just beautiful, imagine the nifty opengl effects
Dec 01 23:43:10 <abatrour> basically the tech specs
Dec 01 23:44:44 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: publically available is a two page 'datasheet'.
Dec 01 23:44:47 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: that's it
Dec 01 23:44:51 <jc> well at least for some 'acceleration':
Dec 01 23:44:59 * quatrox must find a replacement for udev
Dec 01 23:45:03 <jc> it should have line/polygon drawing in hardware
Dec 01 23:45:16 <SpeedEvil> And a puppy!
Dec 01 23:45:33 <jc> so if you like examine the image being send to it
Dec 01 23:45:34 <quatrox> mwester: ?
Dec 01 23:45:44 <jc> and detect for example adjacent pixels with the same colors
Dec 01 23:45:55 <jc> and see there are 20 pixels on one line which are same color
Dec 01 23:46:15 <jc> (or of course more, that was understatement, i'm used to 8bit buses lol)
Dec 01 23:46:19 <quatrox> hmmm
Dec 01 23:46:22 <abatrour> speed: do u know where this datasheet is?
Dec 01 23:46:33 * mwester likes puppies!
Dec 01 23:46:34 <quatrox> I boot my gta with qi
Dec 01 23:46:39 <jc> you substitute sending of 20 white pixels witch 'white line from/to'
Dec 01 23:46:40 <quatrox> and ...
Dec 01 23:46:41 <jc> for example
Dec 01 23:46:53 <quatrox> mwester: it started udev
Dec 01 23:46:54 <jc> that would be simple performance enhancement at least for some cases ?
Dec 01 23:47:07 <jc> *with
Dec 01 23:47:13 <abatrour> especially when the main color is black :P
Dec 01 23:47:17 <Wonka> i'd be happy if my ttySACs didn't lose chars anymore...
Dec 01 23:47:23 <mwester> quatrox:  that's a good thing, right?
Dec 01 23:47:28 <quatrox> mwester: you should see my phone
Dec 01 23:47:45 <mwester> Wonka:  fix the app that reads the characters; has nothing to do with the hardware (on the gta02)
Dec 01 23:47:55 <CVirus> what the hell are they releasing !!! http://events.nokia.com/countdown/
Dec 01 23:47:59 <jc> so you have a completely black screen - cpu runs through the image with some simple algorithm and sends the glamo only a single polygon
Dec 01 23:48:35 <Wonka> mwester: hm - in this case, it's frameworkd...
Dec 01 23:48:37 <mwester> jc:  you assume that that app that computes the polygon is more efficient than just sending the bitmap.
Dec 01 23:48:53 <abatrour> cvirus: maybe the source if they havn't already?
Dec 01 23:48:54 <quatrox> mwester: [21474599:12343435 evbug.c: Event. Dev: input, Type: 2, Code: 0, Volume: 923
Dec 01 23:48:58 <quatrox> something like that
Dec 01 23:49:03 <quatrox> scrolling really fast
Dec 01 23:49:05 <jc> sending bitmap to glamo and get bus locked after each word is a lot slower than precomputing, right ?
Dec 01 23:49:06 <mwester> Wonka:  well, then, frameworkd needs to be fixed.
Dec 01 23:49:09 <CVirus> abatrour: what source ?
Dec 01 23:49:22 <mwester> quatrox:  find evbug.* and rename it.
Dec 01 23:49:23 <abatrour> bitmaps are huge though
Dec 01 23:49:31 <mwester> quatrox:  what distro are you running?
Dec 01 23:49:32 <jc> especially if the precomputing is a extremely simple sequential algorithm
Dec 01 23:49:36 <quatrox> shr
Dec 01 23:49:41 <jc> just take one word after other and compare
Dec 01 23:49:44 <Wonka> mwester: any idea _what_ is wrong and needs to be fixed there?
Dec 01 23:49:55 <jc> when they match, start counting polygon size
Dec 01 23:50:01 <abatrour> cvirus: doesn't nokia own palm or something?
Dec 01 23:50:04 <mwester> Wonka:  no idea.  Something (whatever is reading the data from the serial port) is not able to keep up  with the incoming data.
Dec 01 23:50:19 <abatrour> i read nokia was releasing the source for their os, but i could be wrong
Dec 01 23:50:21 <CVirus> abatrour: I don't think they'll make a countdown for a software release .. but a hardware one
Dec 01 23:50:23 <Wonka> mwester: at 9600bps and 400MHz? O.o
Dec 01 23:50:36 <jc> I think I'll actually try that
Dec 01 23:50:47 <mwester> Wonka:  you are thinking wrong -- at the wrong end of the pipe.
Dec 01 23:50:57 <jc> do you hing theres enough information about the glamo lying around the drivers ?
Dec 01 23:51:01 <jc> *think
Dec 01 23:51:19 <jc> to understand it at least basically - how it is accessed and how the acceleration works
Dec 01 23:51:25 <SpeedEvil> jc: the drivers will tell you lots about the chip
Dec 01 23:51:33 <abatrour> im trying to find the glamo datasheet
Dec 01 23:51:35 <Wonka> mwester: huh? i am confused now.
Dec 01 23:51:35 <SpeedEvil> jc: yes, certainly, at least the parts that are used
Dec 01 23:51:45 <jc> ok then, I hope boot from ram works :)
Dec 01 23:51:46 <mwester> Wonka:  consider if the app reading the data from the gps is stuck in a dbus call for 10 seconds -- how much data just got piled up in the buffer, and how many "stuck on dbus" can occur in sequence before the serial buffer overflows?
Dec 01 23:52:00 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: the proper datasheet is unavailable withuotu NDA
Dec 01 23:52:25 <Wonka> mwester: hm, that way round, ok...
Dec 01 23:52:29 <quatrox> mwester: /lib/modules/2.6.28-GTA02_andy-tracking_2d1d9ec0e2d009d0-mokodev/kernel/drivers/input/evbug.ko
Dec 01 23:52:49 <jc> I'd just love to at least write arm assembly 'hello world' code and have it display something
Dec 01 23:52:49 <abatrour> oh, i thought the datasheet was a basic outlining of what the chip can do
Dec 01 23:52:58 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: it is.
Dec 01 23:53:01 <abatrour> i just wanna know what codecs it supports in hardware
Dec 01 23:53:01 <mwester> quatrox:  just rename it and see what happens.  I don't doubt there's a problem, but that should get rid of the stream of messages.
Dec 01 23:53:03 <jc> after all, I bought an open development platform :))
Dec 01 23:53:04 <SpeedEvil> abatrour: on the 'see spot run' level.
Dec 01 23:53:08 <Wonka> mwester: gps sometimes is stuck for minutes, and then, much of the piled-up data comes in quite fast, at about 6 seconds per second.
Dec 01 23:53:48 <mwester> Wonka:  Yep, that's what I would expect if the app reading the serial buffer got stuck on something.  Perhaps it's as simple is using "nice" to give that app higher priority?  You could try that...
Dec 01 23:53:48 <jc> also I understand u-boot does all peripheral preinitialization so glamo and cpu is warm and ready when code in ram executes ?
Dec 01 23:54:18 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it it only initialises stuff it uses
Dec 01 23:54:19 <mwester> jc:  It does, to some degree, but the kernel should not trust that.
Dec 01 23:54:27 <SpeedEvil> but I've not looked closely at it.
Dec 01 23:54:37 <jc> mwester, I'm thinking about the raw assembly code, not kernel now :)
Dec 01 23:55:01 <mwester> jc:  the you would be writing what would amount to an extension of u-boot.
Dec 01 23:55:03 <jc> anyway I think I better stop annoying you here and get to hacking, thanks for the directions :)
Dec 01 23:56:26 <jc> mwester If I understood that statement correctly then yes, I'd let u-boot preinitialize everything and just draw a pretty picture into glamos buffer :)
Dec 01 23:56:44 <jc> its good to start simple
Dec 01 23:58:05 <jc> I've dumbed down on avrs a lot lately :D
Dec 01 23:58:50 <quatrox> the first boot was very slow... rebooting to check speed
Dec 02 00:01:07 <Wonka> mwester: frameworkd is now higher prioritized than anything but udev, but still several chars per minute are lost.
Dec 02 00:01:50 * quatrox got kernel panic! Thinks that Andy's branch is not _that_ stable.... will try to figure out why
Dec 02 00:02:24 <lindi-> quatrox: can you see the panic message?
Dec 02 00:02:52 <quatrox> now I rebooted... will check again
Dec 02 00:03:00 <abatrour> finally got debian running
Dec 02 00:04:52 <mwester> Wonka:  I'm not convinced that frameworkd actually reads the serial port.
Dec 02 00:05:16 <Wonka> mwester: it is the only process "lsof /dev/ttySAC1" lists...
Dec 02 00:05:31 <mwester> That's unfortunate then.  :(
Dec 02 00:05:46 <mwester> That's what (IMO) something like gpsd is supposed to do.
Dec 02 00:06:18 <Wonka> mwester: one of frameworkd's subsystems is named "ogpsd" and responsible for gps daemon stuff
Dec 02 00:07:59 <mwester> Open a bug report on the fso bug tracker, I guess.
Dec 02 00:09:08 <quatrox> lindi-: I cannot reproduce it, but it printed something with init_ something and then exit
Dec 02 00:09:11 <Wonka> *sigh* sometimes, zhone eats about 75% CPU, frameworkd another 20%, rest distributed about some other processes - and i'd sure like to know what they are doing then... can't take that much to draw a little information about GPS o.O
Dec 02 00:09:56 <abatrour> ok i got debian installed, now how do i get the gnome interface?
Dec 02 00:09:57 <rooly> quatrox: are you having trouble with python?
Dec 02 00:10:06 <abatrour> all i get is what i think is zphone
Dec 02 00:11:24 <quatrox> suspending takes minutes... will try with the normal kernel
Dec 02 00:14:06 <jc> on the overal gta02 schematic, the 'multimedia coprocessor' is the glamo ?
Dec 02 00:15:09 <jc> I guess it can't be anything else, dumb question
Dec 02 00:17:07 <quatrox> rooly: not yet
Dec 02 00:17:14 <quatrox> didn't learn python yet
Dec 02 00:18:01 <CVirus> you can learn that in 10 minutes
Dec 02 00:18:11 <quatrox> me?
Dec 02 00:18:14 <quatrox> nope
Dec 02 00:18:22 <jc> python is simple :)
Dec 02 00:18:35 <quatrox> 2^10 minutes maybe
Dec 02 00:19:31 <quatrox> but I didn't look at it yet... no time
Dec 02 00:19:38 <jc> but I really hate the fact code indentation is used to create blocks
Dec 02 00:19:52 <quatrox> why?
Dec 02 00:19:58 <quatrox> what is wrong with that?
Dec 02 00:20:14 <quatrox> do you also hate Makefiles?
Dec 02 00:20:26 <jc> well, for some reason, I find {} a little more readable
Dec 02 00:20:27 <ronny> nothing except peoples expectations
Dec 02 00:20:38 <ronny> jc: its all just getting used to it
Dec 02 00:20:41 <jc> quatrox as a matter of fact, I do
Dec 02 00:20:51 <quatrox> ohh
Dec 02 00:21:00 <ronny> just like lisp coder can actually deal with the parens
Dec 02 00:21:02 <jc> I had to write a pretty complex makefile for a avr-gcc project with multiple libraries
Dec 02 00:21:11 <jc> I don't like makefiles since then
Dec 02 00:21:26 <jc> I think of theyr format as write-only 
Dec 02 00:21:26 <vininim> wow
Dec 02 00:21:33 <quatrox> avr-gcc? I played with that too
Dec 02 00:21:37 <vininim> 2-4 hours with GPS on in my pocket
Dec 02 00:21:38 <ronny> makefiles are designed to hate them once you go complex
Dec 02 00:21:42 <jc> its very fun :)
Dec 02 00:21:45 <vininim> and batter went from 80% to 15%
Dec 02 00:22:04 <vininim> and fr was hot
Dec 02 00:22:12 <jc> but I guess makefiles get the work done
Dec 02 00:22:17 <quatrox> jc: but now my STK500 is full of dust because I upgraded it (bought a freerunner)
Dec 02 00:22:18 <jc> so does python
Dec 02 00:22:25 <ronny> yup
Dec 02 00:22:34 <ronny> and python is pretty readable :)
Dec 02 00:22:44 <jc> its simple, it should be simple and its easy to learn and has lots of libraries to code complicated things simply
Dec 02 00:22:49 <ronny> just view it as executable pseudocode
Dec 02 00:22:52 <jc> certainly a lot more readable than perl
Dec 02 00:22:59 <quatrox> perl is nice
Dec 02 00:23:07 <jc> if you know what all the symbols mean
Dec 02 00:23:57 <jc> python has simple syntax
Dec 02 00:24:01 <jc> as does for example ruby
Dec 02 00:24:01 <ronny> i conclude that all programming languages where an ascii art dollar sign is a sudoku solver are mean insane beasts
Dec 02 00:24:04 <jc> or javascript
Dec 02 00:24:15 <jc> lol
Dec 02 00:24:18 <quatrox> grrr...
Dec 02 00:24:22 <quatrox> but...
Dec 02 00:24:31 <jc> I don't have anything against ascii art :D
Dec 02 00:24:36 <quatrox> anyone tried whitespaces?
Dec 02 00:24:37 <ronny> jc: i woldnt call ruby simple if i was you - it goes into the per direction
Dec 02 00:24:49 <jc> I think python is too conservative in use of symbols
Dec 02 00:24:50 <ronny> *perl
Dec 02 00:25:22 <jc> ruby can be learned pretty fast
Dec 02 00:25:24 <jc> just as python
Dec 02 00:25:29 <jc> and its neatly object oriented
Dec 02 00:25:41 <ronny> jc: ruby has a damn free-form syntax
Dec 02 00:26:03 <ronny> and they seem to view monkeypatching as the way to save the world
Dec 02 00:26:05 * quatrox thinks of http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/helloworld.html
Dec 02 00:26:08 <jc> it does, but you don't have to learn 50 symbols to get the idea of a simple for-each loop
Dec 02 00:26:22 <jc> monkeypatching ?
Dec 02 00:26:45 <quatrox> monkeypatching?
Dec 02 00:27:02 <quatrox> like in 'code monkey'?
Dec 02 00:27:03 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 02 00:27:11 <jc> code monkey is.. weird :)
Dec 02 00:27:15 <jc> if you mean the series
Dec 02 00:27:28 <ronny> jc: as in replacing methods of existing classes
Dec 02 00:27:46 <ronny> they extend buildins or other classes
Dec 02 00:27:59 <jc> ronny, oh that, yes I don't like changing meanings of standard operators too much either
Dec 02 00:28:00 <ronny> the problem - collisions that nobody can ever debug
Dec 02 00:28:06 * quatrox thinks that the only way to patch is binary run time patching
Dec 02 00:28:17 <jc> but when you for example compute with very precise numbers
Dec 02 00:28:40 <quatrox> jc: why would you do that?
Dec 02 00:28:45 <jc> would you like to consistently code addition as NumberClass::Add(Number1, Number2) or rather just a simple Number1 + Number2 ?
Dec 02 00:29:11 <ronny> operators can just be mapped to methods
Dec 02 00:29:20 <ronny> and its the job of the language to do that
Dec 02 00:29:20 <jc> when cpu supported word length is not enough ?
Dec 02 00:29:36 <ronny> both python and ruby do that
Dec 02 00:29:40 <ronny> and its not what i meant
Dec 02 00:29:49 <quatrox> jc: if you need to compute a lot of heavy stuff, add a google class. Google the answer
Dec 02 00:29:52 <jc> also php I think, but I never really did that
Dec 02 00:29:57 <ronny> i meant opening random existing classes and changing their code
Dec 02 00:30:23 <jc> ronny like so that they do something else that theyre supposed to all of a sudden ?
Dec 02 00:30:40 <jc> I think they do a lot of unit testing so they catch all incorrect behavior in time, right ?
Dec 02 00:31:35 <Fougner> hiya!
Dec 02 00:31:42 <ronny> jc: that doesnt help if a random lib changes some random other behaviour at runtime
Dec 02 00:31:43 <jc> hullo
Dec 02 00:32:02 <jc> reminds me of lisp
Dec 02 00:32:27 <ronny> not really
Dec 02 00:32:30 <jc> ronny, anyway they seriously do that ?
Dec 02 00:32:38 <ronny> jc: yes, its common in ruby
Dec 02 00:32:47 <jc> so like
Dec 02 00:32:47 <quatrox> hmmm... I want to learn Vala, python, ..., 
Dec 02 00:32:58 <jc> instead of writing an abstract class for database access
Dec 02 00:33:12 <jc> they write one class that accessess for example mysql
Dec 02 00:33:12 <Fougner> oh, programming :D
Dec 02 00:33:19 <jc> and then someone says 'oh no I don't like mysql'
Dec 02 00:33:28 <quatrox> I hate too much abstraction. Better to get the work done
Dec 02 00:33:32 <ronny> jc: bad example, completely wrong and insane factoring
Dec 02 00:33:35 <jc> and instead of making the database class abstract and making a mysql/sqlite extensions
Dec 02 00:33:57 <Fougner> where is Dave?
Dec 02 00:33:58 <ronny> jc: they just add new behaviours if they actually need them
Dec 02 00:34:00 <Fougner> apt get Dave
Dec 02 00:34:02 * apt fetches Dave
Dec 02 00:34:06 <jc> he writes a sqlite class that redirects the mysql classess methods to itself ?
Dec 02 00:34:24 <ronny> jc: BAD BAD BAD - they arent that fscking insane
Dec 02 00:34:35 <jc> ok :)) phew
Dec 02 00:34:44 <jc> you know I actually saw RoR work, so..
Dec 02 00:35:16 <Fougner> ey guys, tell me about a good simple C++ IDE in Linux
Dec 02 00:35:28 <ronny> code::blocks?
Dec 02 00:35:31 <jc> ronny so like they have a UTF-8 class that modifies every string parsing class to be utf-aware ?
Dec 02 00:35:33 <ronny> kdevelop?
Dec 02 00:35:39 <Fougner> if you've got some personal experience, please tell me about it too =)
Dec 02 00:35:43 <quatrox> well, you computer geeks can finish the discussion... I must sleep
Dec 02 00:35:55 <Fougner> quatrox, noooooo
Dec 02 00:35:58 <ronny> jc: no, they would just change the string class to enfoce utf-8
Dec 02 00:36:05 <Fougner> you're one of us now , you must stay =)
Dec 02 00:36:15 <ronny> jc: but then someone else would change the string class to be ucs4 - and bang
Dec 02 00:36:15 <quatrox> I am not
Dec 02 00:36:38 <ronny> jc: but seriously, i lack good examples for this atm
Dec 02 00:36:44 <jc> ronny, I don't get it, so the string class is originally non-utf aware
Dec 02 00:36:47 <quatrox> I am a hardware person, not software geek
Dec 02 00:37:09 <jc> and they throw in a class that adds some stuff to the string class to be utf-aware ?
Dec 02 00:37:12 <Fougner> quatrox, oh, like what? =D
Dec 02 00:37:22 <jc> well I know ruby only on the basic level
Dec 02 00:37:44 <ronny> jc: those are all fscking bad examples tho
Dec 02 00:38:00 <quatrox> Fougner: not easy to guess
Dec 02 00:38:16 <jc> well those are some practices I actually came across a few times, you really wouldn't beleive it
Dec 02 00:38:40 <Fougner> ronny, thanks for the tip
Dec 02 00:38:45 <Fougner> I'll check em out
Dec 02 00:38:46 <jc> so I expect the worst now :))
Dec 02 00:38:53 <ronny> hmm
Dec 02 00:39:04 <ronny> i really should add more c++ support to pida
Dec 02 00:39:13 <ronny> right now its kinda nonexistent
Dec 02 00:39:13 <Fougner> o_O?
Dec 02 00:39:59 <quatrox> ronny: Keep It Simple (==ansi C)
Dec 02 00:40:03 <ronny> Fougner: im one of the core devs of the pida ide, right now we dont have any nice support/integration for c++
Dec 02 00:40:18 <ronny> quatrox: ansi c is seriously hellisch for building complex things
Dec 02 00:40:26 <quatrox> no
Dec 02 00:40:36 <Fougner> ronny, wow that's cool
Dec 02 00:40:41 <quatrox> struct *?
Dec 02 00:40:49 <ronny> well, then why the heck does it tend to generate things like gobject?
Dec 02 00:41:05 <ronny> c seriously lacks support for higher level abstractions
Dec 02 00:41:23 <jc> its not meant to !
Dec 02 00:41:24 <Fougner> hmm
Dec 02 00:41:26 <quatrox> that is why I also like Vala
Dec 02 00:41:28 <ronny> and mimicing them is kinda fucked up
Dec 02 00:41:33 <ronny> vala is neat
Dec 02 00:41:35 <jc> C is blazingly fast
Dec 02 00:41:49 <Fougner> I'm not a programmer, but I've heard a lot of programmers argue about C/C++
Dec 02 00:42:00 <jc> its pretty simple
Dec 02 00:42:07 <jc> C is unsuitable for any high level stuff
Dec 02 00:42:10 <Fougner> seems like C is more "basic" where you can do "everything".. C++ is more highlevel than C.
Dec 02 00:42:20 <jc> C statements translate usually to a few assembly instructions
Dec 02 00:42:24 <quatrox> ask our hero mr Linus....
Dec 02 00:42:27 <jc> even on a thing like avr !
Dec 02 00:42:33 <Fougner> mr Linus? =D
Dec 02 00:42:38 <Fougner> you mean Torvalds?
Dec 02 00:42:43 <quatrox> si
Dec 02 00:42:44 <jc> you address the memory directly, work with pointers, ...
Dec 02 00:42:54 <ronny> jc: doesnt matter
Dec 02 00:43:09 <jc> you have all variables directly on stack/heap, you basically generate very low level code
Dec 02 00:43:10 <Fougner> jc, sounds like a quite fast language if you can write it correctly
Dec 02 00:43:15 <quatrox> torvalds *linus;
Dec 02 00:43:18 <jc> thats the problem
Dec 02 00:43:21 <ronny> i dont care if i loose 5% of the speed while loosing 60% of the development time
Dec 02 00:43:25 <jc> try doing database access in c
Dec 02 00:43:30 <Fougner> hahah
Dec 02 00:43:37 <jc> you have to worry about allocating strings into memory and stuff
Dec 02 00:43:42 <jc> thats just ugly
Dec 02 00:43:42 <Fougner> oh
Dec 02 00:43:54 <jc> on the other hand if you look at things like perl
Dec 02 00:43:57 <Fougner> so If I want to do a database engine, I'll go for C
Dec 02 00:44:09 <Fougner> if I'll develop a game or something, I'll write it in C++
Dec 02 00:44:11 <ronny> c is like building a tunnel in a massive wall of granit - with your fingernails
Dec 02 00:44:28 <jc> you have an interpreter that keeps track of what variables it has, how long they are, what you can do with them
Dec 02 00:44:32 <quatrox> well.... the bottleneck is rather because of O(n^5) than because someone uses C++ instead of C
Dec 02 00:44:33 <Fougner> ronny, sounds like impossible =)
Dec 02 00:44:51 <jc> doesn't really let you call a string instead of a function due to misalignment :)))
Dec 02 00:44:56 <ronny> Fougner: but people get by ;P
Dec 02 00:45:23 <ronny> i think managed languages + jit are pretty much the future
Dec 02 00:45:23 <quatrox> string?
Dec 02 00:45:24 <Fougner> ronny, I'm installing pida now =)
Dec 02 00:45:27 <quatrox> like gchar?
Dec 02 00:45:36 <ronny> Fougner: no c++ support tho
Dec 02 00:45:43 <jc> but at the same time, if you know how the hardware works and you know how everything is connected to it C is just so beautiful and simplifies your life a lot
Dec 02 00:45:44 <Fougner> ronny, not at all?
Dec 02 00:45:51 <Fougner> I can write a plugin for it :P
Dec 02 00:46:08 <jc> but thats only if you solve things like flashing leds on avr :D
Dec 02 00:46:10 <Fougner> ronny, I have  the intention to learn a smaaall bit of Python too =)
Dec 02 00:46:12 <quatrox> well... I played with my avr-kit
Dec 02 00:46:28 <quatrox> and the best language I could use was asm
Dec 02 00:46:39 <Fougner> you haxxors!
Dec 02 00:46:42 <ronny> Fougner: well, then you might want to take a look at the development version (tonns of changes)
Dec 02 00:46:42 <quatrox> my point is: each language has its advantage
Dec 02 00:46:44 <jc> very beautiful example;
Dec 02 00:46:47 <Fougner> evil naughty haxxors, you are!
Dec 02 00:47:03 <Fougner> ronny, something I'll find useful hmm? ^^
Dec 02 00:47:07 <jc> if you have several serial buffers connected to each other and on a serial transceiver on a mcu
Dec 02 00:47:24 <jc> bitfields in c are sooooo life saving
Dec 02 00:47:27 <Fougner> ah, fsck it all.. PHP is the shit =D
Dec 02 00:47:34 <Fougner> it pwns eeeeverything!
Dec 02 00:47:35 <ronny> Fougner: i changed much stuff in the plugin stuff, but that starts to get a bit offtopic
Dec 02 00:47:38 <rooly> so...
Dec 02 00:47:39 <ronny> btw
Dec 02 00:47:45 <quatrox> apt: Attack Fougner!
Dec 02 00:47:46 * apt grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing Fougner!
Dec 02 00:47:48 <jc> especially if you access the stuff connected on them from many places
Dec 02 00:47:49 <rooly> qte doesn't allow password input on webpages
Dec 02 00:47:58 * Fougner runs away
Dec 02 00:48:06 <ronny> programms should be mainly for humans to read, only incidentially for computers to execute
Dec 02 00:48:17 <jc> tell that to a 2KB AVR
Dec 02 00:48:26 <Fougner> xD
Dec 02 00:48:33 <jc> hey avr !
Dec 02 00:48:40 <jc> why dont you printf this fscking string
Dec 02 00:48:42 <ronny> jc: i only talk to those using the shoes with spikes
Dec 02 00:48:45 <quatrox> apt: reprogram ronny with his own code
Dec 02 00:48:55 <jc> well dude I have only 128B of RAM
Dec 02 00:49:04 <ronny> they tend to make funny noise
Dec 02 00:49:10 <jc> and you can't really fit this onto the heap !
Dec 02 00:49:15 <jc> you have to read it sequentially...
Dec 02 00:49:18 <ronny> jc: the first satelites ran lisp
Dec 02 00:49:26 <Fougner> apt get ronny | >> ronny.person
Dec 02 00:49:27 <ronny> and they had not even 512k
Dec 02 00:49:27 * apt fetches ronny | >> ronny.person
Dec 02 00:49:34 <jc> and they cost like $2
Dec 02 00:49:53 <jc> and you can make uv lamps, remote controllers, timers, multimeters and stuff with them
Dec 02 00:49:59 <jc> that actually work and blink and beep
Dec 02 00:50:01 <quatrox> ronny: that is why Lisp is called Lost in Space Problems
Dec 02 00:50:01 <jc> and its so cool
Dec 02 00:50:18 <jc> and you don't have to pay for a $10 ARM that does STDIO correctly
Dec 02 00:50:27 <Fougner> jc, sounds like a neat thing, where can I get one? =D
Dec 02 00:50:29 <ronny> well, lisp is still one of the most powerfull languages out there
Dec 02 00:50:32 <jc> and introduce a lot of overhead just to use printf() or something
Dec 02 00:50:41 <jc> Fougner like a local electronics store? :D
Dec 02 00:50:44 <quatrox> LOST IN STUPID PARENTHESES!!!!
Dec 02 00:50:53 <jc> :))
Dec 02 00:50:57 <Fougner> jc, doesn't exist here ^^
Dec 02 00:50:59 <jc> flame on a rise I see
Dec 02 00:51:10 <quatrox> (lost (in(even(((((more
Dec 02 00:51:13 <quatrox> (((stupid
Dec 02 00:51:14 <ronny> quatrox: those dont matter
Dec 02 00:51:20 <quatrox> (((parentheses((((
Dec 02 00:51:23 <jc> well if it exists in this hellhole of a country, I don't see why it couldn't anywhere else
Dec 02 00:51:25 <quatrox> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dec 02 00:51:37 <Fougner> jc, where do you live? :P
Dec 02 00:51:42 <jc> Czech Republic :D
Dec 02 00:51:42 <Fougner> quatrox, haha funny
Dec 02 00:51:45 <Fougner> oh
Dec 02 00:51:47 <ronny> the parens are just one of the stupid arguments of those that are too stupid to get lisp
Dec 02 00:51:55 <Fougner> well, you live in a big city maybe?
Dec 02 00:52:09 <jc> nope, about 100 people or so in this 'city'
Dec 02 00:52:12 <Fougner> code structure anyone? ^^
Dec 02 00:52:16 <Fougner> oh
Dec 02 00:52:18 <Fougner> hehe, well
Dec 02 00:52:23 <jc> but yeah, I have to go to a near larger city to electronics store
Dec 02 00:52:24 <Fougner> I don't believe you
Dec 02 00:52:30 <Fougner> yeah exacltey
Dec 02 00:52:34 <Fougner> exactley even
Dec 02 00:52:42 <quatrox> did you read this: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/hellowoorld.html ?
Dec 02 00:52:51 <quatrox> you should
Dec 02 00:53:00 <jc> quatrox you mean the 404 ?
Dec 02 00:53:22 <ronny> did read that
Dec 02 00:53:36 <Fougner> jc, hah, http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/helloworld.html
Dec 02 00:53:55 <jc> oooh yeah I remember those :D
Dec 02 00:54:21 <jc> I see they ommited the part where the manager couldn't figure out how to end input to mail command :D :D
Dec 02 00:54:31 <jc> I found that soooo funny :D
Dec 02 00:54:32 <quatrox> letter!!!
Dec 02 00:54:52 <jc> ooooh :D
Dec 02 00:54:55 <jc> yeah :D
Dec 02 00:54:57 <jc> cool :D
Dec 02 00:55:06 <jc> I actually did a little basic on a C64 too :)
Dec 02 00:55:20 <jc> but only used poke/peek anyway mostly
Dec 02 00:57:04 <jc> if you like ugly kludges I could give you my latest UV lamp firmware source :D :D
Dec 02 00:57:13 <jc> its a C heaven
Dec 02 00:57:18 <Fougner> uhm, am I a retard just because I can't understand the code completely? =(
Dec 02 00:57:19 <Wonka> apt reinstall world
Dec 02 00:57:24 <ronny> hmm
Dec 02 00:57:33 <ronny> god do i hate win32
Dec 02 00:57:35 <jc> the pointer to a pointer to function returning an integer kind of heaven :D
Dec 02 00:58:03 <jc> (button event handling routines :D :D)
Dec 02 00:58:35 <quatrox> Fougner: which code is it that you don't understand?
Dec 02 00:58:44 <quatrox> is it the lisp thing?
Dec 02 00:58:53 <jc> I dont understand it either
Dec 02 00:59:07 <Fougner> quatrox, a lot of it =P
Dec 02 00:59:11 <Fougner> mostly the humour
Dec 02 00:59:19 <quatrox> ohh
Dec 02 00:59:25 <ronny> the lisp one is actually badly written, and doesnt work at all
Dec 02 00:59:28 <jc> Fougner remember the prime 'Keep It Simple, Stupid' directive
Dec 02 00:59:37 <quatrox> ronny: it works
Dec 02 00:59:58 <ronny> quatrox: they never call it, they just define the function
Dec 02 01:00:12 <jc> really wheres the most basic printf("hello, world!\n'); one ?
Dec 02 01:00:33 <Fougner> jc, KISS =D
Dec 02 01:00:37 <jc> I mean in C, not in pascal, thats a WTF in itself (using pascal)
Dec 02 01:00:38 <Wonka> how the *BLEEP* can openmoko-panel-plugin eat 91% of the time of a 400MHz CPU?!??
Dec 02 01:00:41 <jc> Fougner no thanks :D
Dec 02 01:00:45 <jc> but yeah...
Dec 02 01:01:09 <Wonka> jc: »don't use printf for chitchat!«
Dec 02 01:01:22 <jc> why not? :D
Dec 02 01:01:29 <Wonka> jc: because.
Dec 02 01:01:47 <Fougner> Q: How can you tell when a lawyer is lying?
Dec 02 01:01:57 <Wonka> Fougner: A: his lips are moving
Dec 02 01:01:59 <jc> A: he's  talking
Dec 02 01:02:00 <jc> :D :D
Dec 02 01:02:18 <Wonka> jc: printf would scan the whole string for format sequences... needlessly.
Dec 02 01:02:32 <jc> Wonka unless it gets optimized
Dec 02 01:02:47 <jc> Wonka and subsided with simple sequential output function
Dec 02 01:03:00 <jc> by the compiler
Dec 02 01:03:05 <ronny> not a reasonable asumption
Dec 02 01:03:25 <jc> here the wtfs begin - you shouldn't really introduce kludges to speed things up before you really need them
Dec 02 01:03:30 <ronny> thats a dataflow based optimation that needs knowdegde of the actual data
Dec 02 01:03:47 <jc> nope, the compiler recognized printf() is passed a string literal
Dec 02 01:04:09 <jc> and no other arguments
Dec 02 01:04:12 <Sargun> How funny was it that bug 666 got the number 666?
Dec 02 01:04:13 <jc> therefore it can be optimized ?
Dec 02 01:04:16 <Wonka> it would need to recognize printf() is passed a string literal without % in it
Dec 02 01:04:25 <Fougner> Q: What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer?
Dec 02 01:04:29 <jc> oh yeah, I forgot about that
Dec 02 01:04:39 <jc> so how do you propose to do a fastest hello world in c ?
Dec 02 01:05:00 <ronny> main(){puts("hello world!");}
Dec 02 01:05:13 <jc> I kinda missed puts :D
Dec 02 01:05:15 <Wonka> write(1,"hello world\n");
Dec 02 01:05:24 <ronny> ah well, Wonka wins
Dec 02 01:05:28 <jc> oh...
Dec 02 01:06:04 <jc> anyway, printf on ARM fyi is just about 4 instructions for parsing the string and looking for %
Dec 02 01:06:04 <Wonka> »puts() writes the string s and a trailing newline to stdout.«
Dec 02 01:06:12 <jc> when it doesn't find any, its pretty fast
Dec 02 01:06:42 <jc> so like "s\n" ? :D: D
Dec 02 01:06:47 <jc> noo you said string s
Dec 02 01:06:51 <jc> so "s\0\n"
Dec 02 01:07:06 <Wonka> c&p from manpage - manpage stupid.
Dec 02 01:07:30 <ronny> back to win32 hate for me
Dec 02 01:07:41 <ronny> porting software has  never been this much fun
Dec 02 01:07:54 <jc> so why do you do it? :D
Dec 02 01:08:08 <Wonka> but what i take from it is that puts adds a newline - needing a second syscall or string manipulation, which my write() doesn't.
Dec 02 01:08:27 <jc> thats very true
Dec 02 01:08:28 <ronny> jc: cause noone else can - sucks to be me
Dec 02 01:08:34 <quatrox> ronny: ohh...
Dec 02 01:08:35 <quatrox> C++ is to C as...
Dec 02 01:08:35 <quatrox> "Seasoned professional" is to "First year in College"
Dec 02 01:08:35 <quatrox> ref helloworld.html
Dec 02 01:08:43 <quatrox> Wonka: who needs printf() when we got write() ?
Dec 02 01:08:48 <jc> but how long do you think writing that to a buffer takes compared to actually outputing it to a screen or sending via uart ?
Dec 02 01:08:57 <Wonka> quatrox: that's what i'm saying
Dec 02 01:09:24 <ronny> i already declared Wonka to the winner
Dec 02 01:10:09 <jc> well, I have to agree
Dec 02 01:10:22 <jc> its fastest
Dec 02 01:10:35 <ronny> night
Dec 02 01:10:43 <jc> good night
Dec 02 01:10:44 * Wonka goes fast to bed now
Dec 02 01:10:51 <Wonka> night ronny :)
Dec 02 01:11:13 * Wonka used too much strace in the last days...
Dec 02 01:11:44 <Wonka> open(), close(), read() and write() on ttyS* and stuff...
Dec 02 01:11:57 <jc> you should go and write some high level language to regain some sanity and social skills :D
Dec 02 01:12:23 <jc> low level stuff is seriously bad for health
Dec 02 01:12:30 <jc> once you get hooked to it, you can't stop
Dec 02 01:12:51 * mwester wonders why nobody came up with the appropriate syscall() to do the job
Dec 02 01:13:30 <quatrox> Wonka: optimization is only usefull in loops
Dec 02 01:13:43 <jc> something to piss you up and get you to stop hacking hardware
Dec 02 01:13:43 <jc> like
Dec 02 01:14:20 <jc> a GPIO pin hooked to an high inductance connected to a metal coat on your table
Dec 02 01:14:43 <jc> and a shock_operator() syscall toggling it...
Dec 02 01:14:59 <Wonka> apt lart jc
Dec 02 01:15:00 * apt keeps mailing jc free America Online CDs until he drowns
Dec 02 01:15:06 <quatrox> jc: you forgot race conditions
Dec 02 01:15:15 <jc> huh ? :D
Dec 02 01:15:42 <quatrox> I won
Dec 02 01:15:56 <quatrox> :P
Dec 02 01:16:10 <jc> whats up with the cds? :P
Dec 02 01:16:13 <Wonka> mwester: hm, write() is not syscall enough?
Dec 02 01:16:39 <mwester> nope, one level too high -- need the syscall in assembly to win.  :p
Dec 02 01:16:48 <Wonka> *g*
Dec 02 01:16:51 <jc> you can pretty much do it
Dec 02 01:17:05 <quatrox> __asm__ ...
Dec 02 01:17:07 <jc> push args on stack or into registers and issue a software interrupt
Dec 02 01:17:17 <jc> depending on the arch, also
Dec 02 01:17:25 <jc> of course then, you have to know the ABI
Dec 02 01:17:35 <Wonka> bad enough that i need to know C in addition to python/perl/ruby...
Dec 02 01:17:46 <quatrox> jc: don't forget the ever growing stack
Dec 02 01:17:52 <Fougner> TAOISM:  Shit happens.
Dec 02 01:17:56 <jc> its not ever growing
Dec 02 01:17:58 <Fougner> CONFUCIANISM:  Confucius say, "Shit happens".
Dec 02 01:18:01 <jc> it actually wraps around :D
Dec 02 01:18:02 <Fougner> ZEN:  (What is the sound of shit happening?)
Dec 02 01:18:13 <quatrox> jc: it might grow too big  and overwrite other things
Dec 02 01:18:24 <Wonka> Fougner: Judaism: why does shit always happen to us?
Dec 02 01:18:25 <jc> like the heap? :P
Dec 02 01:18:35 <quatrox> like the sheap
Dec 02 01:18:57 <Fougner> Wonka, yeah right lol :D
Dec 02 01:19:01 <jc> especially on a 1KB AVR RAM, you get to love growing stacks and heaps :P
Dec 02 01:19:09 <quatrox> stack is pretty similar to heap
Dec 02 01:19:21 <jc> only one collides with the other eventually :D
Dec 02 01:19:33 <quatrox> 1kB or 1kb?
Dec 02 01:19:37 <jc> KB
Dec 02 01:19:42 <quatrox> ?
Dec 02 01:19:52 <jc> really, some have even 1KB RAM :D
Dec 02 01:20:03 <jc> some have 128B
Dec 02 01:20:05 <quatrox> 1000 Byes?
Dec 02 01:20:08 <jc> yup
Dec 02 01:20:16 <mwester> 1024, actually.
Dec 02 01:20:21 <quatrox> nope
Dec 02 01:20:22 <jc> oh yeah, 1024
Dec 02 01:20:24 <quatrox> that is k
Dec 02 01:20:28 <quatrox> not K
Dec 02 01:20:30 <quatrox> ?
Dec 02 01:20:38 <quatrox> no?
Dec 02 01:20:45 <mwester> something like that, I guess.
Dec 02 01:20:45 <jc> fuck the prefixes :)
Dec 02 01:20:51 <jc> everybody means 1024 :D
Dec 02 01:20:54 <quatrox> kiB
Dec 02 01:21:10 <quatrox> except for Western Digital
Dec 02 01:21:11 <jc> except the bastards who rip us off on 512MB SD cards and 700MB CD-ROMs
Dec 02 01:21:20 <jc> yeah and WD
Dec 02 01:21:20 * mwester hates marketing people who decided that capacity in KB where K=1000 sells better than capacity in KB where K=1024 as it should.
Dec 02 01:21:37 * rooly does too
Dec 02 01:21:55 <quatrox> mwester: but if you are a good customer, you get 9 bits in a byte
Dec 02 01:22:01 <jc> anyway I'm too tired to learn the correct prefixing right now :D
Dec 02 01:22:07 <jc> I just mean 1024 every time..
Dec 02 01:22:27 <jc> actually
Dec 02 01:22:48 <jc> there are some obscure micros today that dont respect standard widths
Dec 02 01:22:54 <jc> like PICs have 14 bit program words
Dec 02 01:23:02 <Fougner> % ar m God
Dec 02 01:23:02 <Fougner> ar: God does not exist
Dec 02 01:23:02 <Fougner>  
Dec 02 01:23:02 <jc> thats very ugly for program memory stored data
Dec 02 01:23:25 <jc> or at least PIC16s 
Dec 02 01:24:06 <quatrox> but PICs are cheap
Dec 02 01:24:11 <jc> so are avr
Dec 02 01:24:11 <jc> s
Dec 02 01:24:22 <jc> and at least here, avrs are cheaper
Dec 02 01:24:29 <jc> and also more usable on linux
Dec 02 01:24:34 <quatrox> AVR is easy to use and fast on GPIO
Dec 02 01:24:37 <jc> oh I mean hackable
Dec 02 01:24:51 <jc> well they have one major advantage over PICs
Dec 02 01:24:54 <quatrox> AVR suck on calculations
Dec 02 01:24:54 <Fougner> %make love
Dec 02 01:24:55 <Fougner> Make:  Don't know how to make love.  Stop.
Dec 02 01:25:08 <Fougner> % sleep with me
Dec 02 01:25:09 <Fougner> bad character
Dec 02 01:25:12 <jc> you can toggle multiple pin values by outing to PINx
Dec 02 01:25:17 <jc> pics don't have that...
Dec 02 01:25:20 <Fougner> % got a light?
Dec 02 01:25:20 <Fougner> No match.
Dec 02 01:25:32 <jc> also, BSF STATUS,RP0 made me switch
Dec 02 01:25:33 <Fougner> % man: why did you get a divorce?
Dec 02 01:25:33 <Fougner> man:: Too many arguments.
Dec 02 01:26:17 <jc> quatrox what calculations do you think avrs suck on? :P
Dec 02 01:26:27 <jc> except division :D
Dec 02 01:26:29 <quatrox> floating points?
Dec 02 01:26:40 <Wonka> sink them!
Dec 02 01:26:49 <quatrox> fft,...
Dec 02 01:26:52 <jc> ever tried calculating with them on a pic or 8051 ?
Dec 02 01:27:08 <quatrox> well
Dec 02 01:27:19 <jc> not me, I don't use them even on avr
Dec 02 01:27:26 <jc> they can usually be avoided
Dec 02 01:27:50 <quatrox> well, avr is fast on GPIO and slow on math
Dec 02 01:28:02 <jc> avr is very slow on c-style addressing math
Dec 02 01:28:05 <quatrox> rabbit is fast on math and slow on GPIO
Dec 02 01:28:06 <jc> that matters very much
Dec 02 01:28:09 <jc> rabiit ?
Dec 02 01:28:13 <jc> *fasty
Dec 02 01:28:18 <jc> *fast
Dec 02 01:29:22 <quatrox> rabbit was one example... there are many that is much better
Dec 02 01:29:37 <jc> rabbit is some kind of mcu ?
Dec 02 01:29:43 <quatrox> http://www.rabbit.com/products/rab3000/
Dec 02 01:29:51 <jc> funny name :D
Dec 02 01:30:12 <jc> well for practicality and availability sake, I only use AVRs here...
Dec 02 01:30:23 <quatrox> me too
Dec 02 01:30:29 <jc> pics are also available but bank switching just sucks big time
Dec 02 01:30:31 <jc> can't get over it
Dec 02 01:30:36 <quatrox> and AMD for computations
Dec 02 01:30:45 <jc> amd ? like x86 ?
Dec 02 01:31:17 <quatrox> amd64
Dec 02 01:31:32 <jc> you use that in embedded? :P
Dec 02 01:31:36 <quatrox> nope
Dec 02 01:31:41 <quatrox> no way
Dec 02 01:31:44 <jc> I once tried to get a 486 DX 2 running :D
Dec 02 01:31:47 <jc> its possible
Dec 02 01:31:56 <quatrox> I use it for {k}octave 
Dec 02 01:32:01 <jc> I mean on a selfmade board
Dec 02 01:32:07 <quatrox> ohh
Dec 02 01:32:10 <quatrox> cool
Dec 02 01:32:12 <jc> oh, I don't do math :D
Dec 02 01:32:16 <jc> its great really
Dec 02 01:32:21 <jc> 486 is still pretty simple
Dec 02 01:32:23 <Wonka> for calculations, i'd like to take an xc3s...
Dec 02 01:32:24 <jc> and its doable
Dec 02 01:32:32 <jc> datasheet is totally understandable
Dec 02 01:32:40 <jc> and the instruction set isnt too much bloated yet
Dec 02 01:32:58 <quatrox> and the frequency is low enough
Dec 02 01:33:07 <jc> I think it was about 33MHz
Dec 02 01:33:14 <quatrox> it gets very complicated with high freq.
Dec 02 01:33:16 <jc> and it has onboard PLL
Dec 02 01:33:17 <jc> yep
Dec 02 01:33:50 <jc> but in comparison to a 20MHz AVR i/o operations are slower unles you setup dma or something
Dec 02 01:33:59 <jc> x86 instructions take time to execute
Dec 02 01:34:26 <quatrox> 4 or 8 cycles per instructions
Dec 02 01:34:28 <Wonka> i know a company that runs Linux on FPGAs
Dec 02 01:34:41 <quatrox> while atmel uses 1 or 2
Dec 02 01:34:45 <jc> yep
Dec 02 01:34:52 <jc> well its a load/store arch
Dec 02 01:35:00 <jc> its power is that it has many registers
Dec 02 01:35:10 <jc> but whenever you move in memory, you take 2 cycles
Dec 02 01:35:24 <quatrox> on atmel?
Dec 02 01:35:27 <jc> avr
Dec 02 01:35:30 <quatrox> but
Dec 02 01:35:35 <quatrox> do not forget
Dec 02 01:35:36 <quatrox> that
Dec 02 01:36:09 <quatrox> after first cycle, next instruction is sent
Dec 02 01:36:28 <jc> doesn't matter if data bus hangs the execution
Dec 02 01:36:48 <quatrox> xx
Dec 02 01:36:48 <quatrox>  yy
Dec 02 01:36:48 <quatrox>   zz
Dec 02 01:36:51 <jc> I think all ld/st instructions are 2 cycles
Dec 02 01:37:18 <jc> yeah and does 4 stage pipelining make an arm any faster ?
Dec 02 01:37:22 <quatrox> in practice it will be like one cycle, IIRC
Dec 02 01:37:39 <jc> really ?
Dec 02 01:37:49 <quatrox> yeah
Dec 02 01:38:14 <quatrox> instruction a is at the first cycle
Dec 02 01:38:49 <jc> oh, I'm so asleep I was just searching for a datasheet on my freerunner filesystem :D :D
Dec 02 01:38:51 <quatrox> then when it starts on second sycle, instruction b is on the first cycle
Dec 02 01:39:00 <quatrox> ahaha
Dec 02 01:39:07 <quatrox> did you find any?
Dec 02 01:39:07 <jc> also, I'm so sleepy to correctly write sleepy
Dec 02 01:39:15 <jc> unfortunately not
Dec 02 01:39:19 <quatrox> :(
Dec 02 01:39:24 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 02 01:40:00 <jc> allright
Dec 02 01:40:02 <quatrox> jc: do you think evince would run nice on the FR=
Dec 02 01:40:03 <quatrox> ?
Dec 02 01:40:09 <jc> all ld/st instrucitions are 2 cycles
Dec 02 01:40:18 <quatrox> yes
Dec 02 01:40:19 <Fougner> I'm not kidding you when I say : I need some sleep
Dec 02 01:40:23 <jc> and lpms are 3
Dec 02 01:40:50 <jc> really I was suprised first time I saw avr-gcc code listing :D
Dec 02 01:41:06 <jc> lpming stuff from flash to ram a lot
Dec 02 01:41:08 <jc> until I got it
Dec 02 01:41:33 <jc> quatrox dunno, I'm not familiar with that much :/
Dec 02 01:41:45 <quatrox> ok
Dec 02 01:41:52 <jc> although I love evince and I'd love to read datasheets on fr :D
Dec 02 01:42:17 <quatrox> hmm
Dec 02 01:42:19 <quatrox> and gvim
Dec 02 01:42:20 <jc> afaik it uses some pdf rendering library with pango/cairo acceleration that makes it so fast on x86 ?
Dec 02 01:42:32 <quatrox> we need a stripped down version of gvim
Dec 02 01:42:37 <Fougner> nite
Dec 02 01:42:41 <quatrox> nite
Dec 02 01:42:47 <jc> stripped ?
Dec 02 01:42:50 <jc> like reduced in code ?
Dec 02 01:42:55 <Fougner> NO NAKED!
Dec 02 01:42:57 <jc> or like stripped in stripped binary ?
Dec 02 01:42:59 <jc> ooooh :D
Dec 02 01:43:09 <jc> someone needs to get laid :D
Dec 02 01:43:33 <quatrox> stripped in Not support for everything that makes it lag on FR
Dec 02 01:43:44 <quatrox> and stripped down graphics
Dec 02 01:43:56 <jc> so why gvim and not vim ?
Dec 02 01:44:19 <jc> actually I find vi from busybox for basic editing usable
Dec 02 01:44:33 <jc> really it was a very pleasant suprise
Dec 02 01:44:41 <jc> one of the first stuff I ran on my fr
Dec 02 01:44:50 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> well
Dec 02 01:45:01 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> with a keyboard with esc, it is ok
Dec 02 01:45:14 <jc> yep
Dec 02 01:45:15 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> esc, /, and :
Dec 02 01:45:36 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> and I need visual mode
Dec 02 01:45:39 <jc> I didn't find any other keyboard than the terminal one useful
Dec 02 01:45:43 <jc> I think that was matchbox
Dec 02 01:45:46 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> vi does not support visual mode
Dec 02 01:45:53 <jc> visual mode is useful
Dec 02 01:46:10 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> I use it all time at work
Dec 02 01:46:13 <jc> stylus invoked visual mode :D
Dec 02 01:46:42 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> to create folds, to better get the overview in large files
Dec 02 01:46:47 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> hmm
Dec 02 01:46:48 <jc> anyway I think FR isn't usable too much for more complex text editing
Dec 02 01:47:00 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> no?
Dec 02 01:47:02 <jc> but at least key controlled visual mode would be cool though
Dec 02 01:47:06 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> tex?
Dec 02 01:47:27 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> well, at least it has accels
Dec 02 01:47:32 <jc> well you could probably .. dunno.. develop pages on fr
Dec 02 01:47:50 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> so we can kick the FR and calculate how far away it landed
Dec 02 01:48:01 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> and find the position by GPS
Dec 02 01:48:12 <jc> but when programming, all the taping/typo/fixing overhead just pisses you off
Dec 02 01:48:25 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> no....
Dec 02 01:48:32 <jc> I didn't get into hack mode on FR yet unless hacking FR itself
Dec 02 01:48:42 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> do not program on fr with on screen keyboard
Dec 02 01:48:57 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> I use a iGo BT stowaway keyboard
Dec 02 01:49:01 <jc> and I thought about the text input as part of the hacking process then :D
Dec 02 01:49:18 <jc> I'd love to do a avr gadget
Dec 02 01:49:21 <jc> connectable to usb
Dec 02 01:49:25 <jc> attachable to fr
Dec 02 01:49:29 <jc> with buttons
Dec 02 01:49:34 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> that is easy
Dec 02 01:49:39 <jc> so you can play like NES games or so
Dec 02 01:49:42 <jc> yep I know
Dec 02 01:49:47 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> atmega8 is nice
Dec 02 01:49:48 <jc> avr-usb and HID
Dec 02 01:49:54 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> ahh
Dec 02 01:49:55 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> usb
Dec 02 01:49:59 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> that's right
Dec 02 01:50:01 <jc> its possible even with tiny2313
Dec 02 01:50:15 <jc> mega8 is too much computing power
Dec 02 01:50:26 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> and no usb
Dec 02 01:50:34 <jc> software usb stack
Dec 02 01:50:42 <jc> once set up, relatively low overhead
Dec 02 01:50:50 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> tiny13?
Dec 02 01:50:52 <jc> except when handling packet interrupts
Dec 02 01:51:02 <jc> dunno the 13
Dec 02 01:51:23 <jc> only bulk transfers give avrs the creeps
Dec 02 01:51:38 <jc> hid with interrupt endpoints is perfectly possible
Dec 02 01:51:38 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> true
Dec 02 01:51:48 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> ehh'
Dec 02 01:51:57 <jc> so no need to have hardware usb support for more money
Dec 02 01:52:00 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> usb does not use irq, IIRC
Dec 02 01:52:08 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> not before usb 3.x
Dec 02 01:52:13 <jc> on avr it does
Dec 02 01:52:33 <jc> whenever data comes on either lines, interrupt is triggered inside avr
Dec 02 01:52:52 <jc> the timing is very critical then to be synchronized with usb clock so it has to be interrupt driven
Dec 02 01:53:07 <jc> well, thats the data link layer
Dec 02 01:53:09 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> external irq?
Dec 02 01:53:13 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> :(
Dec 02 01:53:17 <jc> yep, from usb data lines
Dec 02 01:53:23 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> you get a spike...
Dec 02 01:53:25 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> and ...
Dec 02 01:53:30 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> better off polling
Dec 02 01:53:41 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> sorry
Dec 02 01:53:46 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> bit banging
Dec 02 01:53:52 <jc> 20MHz avr doesn't have time for that on 12Mbit bus
Dec 02 01:53:57 <jc> oh 1.2Mbit
Dec 02 01:54:13 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> yes
Dec 02 01:54:15 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> :)
Dec 02 01:54:24 <jc> yep the spikes are bad
Dec 02 01:54:30 <jc> thats what bulk endpoints are about
Dec 02 01:54:33 <jc> loooots of interrupts
Dec 02 01:54:42 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> and caps
Dec 02 01:54:52 <jc> but unless you do mass storage emulation you don't need them
Dec 02 01:54:56 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> maybe a BP filter
Dec 02 01:55:04 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> hmm
Dec 02 01:55:08 <jc> filters are not necessary really
Dec 02 01:55:08 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> LP filter
Dec 02 01:55:15 <jc> its pretty simple, the hw interface
Dec 02 01:55:19 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> it is only one cap
Dec 02 01:55:29 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> then you got a LP filter
Dec 02 01:55:39 <jc> well.. if you mean  power filtering
Dec 02 01:55:46 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> nope
Dec 02 01:55:59 <jc> I hate filters :/
Dec 02 01:56:06 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> you got internal resistance and inductance
Dec 02 01:56:10 <jc> can't do the math
Dec 02 01:56:35 <jc> well maybe I could but I'm lazy to try and understand them
Dec 02 01:56:40 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> that is why you need octave (compatible with matlab)
Dec 02 01:57:20 <jc> well since its a relatively slow bus when you are a low speed device, filtering isn't really necessary
Dec 02 01:57:33 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> anyway.... just take a little C there, and it works better
Dec 02 01:57:47 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> little C + little R
Dec 02 01:58:14 <jc> but adding buttons to fr would be cool
Dec 02 01:58:21 <jc> it would just look lame in public
Dec 02 01:58:30 <jc> hacked gadget wrapper around a fr
Dec 02 01:58:41 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> I bought a dog tag BT handsfree
Dec 02 01:58:46 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> it has buttons
Dec 02 01:58:48 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> :)
Dec 02 01:58:59 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> didn't try it yet
Dec 02 01:59:04 <jc> hmm.. so like use the button for jumping in nes mario ? :D
Dec 02 01:59:24 <jc> ok, only 5 remaining now
Dec 02 01:59:45 <jc> I mean like a gaming controller or a qwerty keyboard
Dec 02 02:00:29 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> http://sddigital.co.uk/images/Jabra%20BT3030.jpg
Dec 02 02:00:52 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> make something out of something
Dec 02 02:01:00 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> buy some bt device
Dec 02 02:01:01 <jc> hey actually that could work :D
Dec 02 02:01:07 <jc> is it hard to push them ?
Dec 02 02:01:11 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> no
Dec 02 02:01:18 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> not very hard
Dec 02 02:01:41 <Dave> hmm
Dec 02 02:01:56 <Dave> anyone here have java6 installed?
Dec 02 02:02:01 <jc> on a fr? :D
Dec 02 02:02:12 <Dave> haha no
Dec 02 02:02:14 <Dave> on linux
Dec 02 02:02:16 <Dave> (pc)
Dec 02 02:02:22 <jc> if id had jazelle...
Dec 02 02:02:25 <jc> *it
Dec 02 02:02:28 <jc> but who likes java
Dec 02 02:02:55 <Dave> I'm just confused because the debian package for sun-java6 is installed but java-version is 1.5.0 ...
Dec 02 02:03:17 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> $ eix -I -c java
Dec 02 02:03:18 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> [I] dev-java/java-config (1.3.7@12/02/07 2.1.6(2)@05/25/08): Java environment configuration tool
Dec 02 02:03:18 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> [I] dev-java/java-config-wrapper (0.15@03/24/08): Wrapper for java-config
Dec 02 02:03:31 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> not sure what I got
Dec 02 02:03:36 <raster> may java be infected by the fleas of 1000 camels
Dec 02 02:03:50 <Dave> o.O
Dec 02 02:03:53 <Dave> yes yes
Dec 02 02:03:59 <Dave> quatrox: java -version :p
Dec 02 02:04:16 <Dave> raster, I agree, though I regrettably need it for this one project.
Dec 02 02:05:15 <jc> and I need to get a life.. whatever
Dec 02 02:05:23 <Dave> haha
Dec 02 02:05:34 <Dave> jc, this is not a good place to start then :D
Dec 02 02:05:49 <raster> Dave:  may that project be infested by the fleas of 2000 camels
Dec 02 02:05:55 <jc> hey at least I'm seeing people :D
Dec 02 02:05:57 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> $ java -version
Dec 02 02:05:57 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> java version "1.6.0_10"
Dec 02 02:05:57 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_10-b33)
Dec 02 02:05:57 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 11.0-b15, mixed mode, sharing)
Dec 02 02:06:22 <Dave> hah
Dec 02 02:06:30 <Dave> hrm
Dec 02 02:06:33 <Dave> yeah
Dec 02 02:06:36 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> what?
Dec 02 02:06:42 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> too new?
Dec 02 02:07:00 <Dave> something like that
Dec 02 02:07:09 <Dave> stupid sun
Dec 02 02:07:16 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> yes
Dec 02 02:07:25 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> anyway
Dec 02 02:07:29 <Dave> too bad they're going bankrupt though?
Dec 02 02:07:29 <jc> without sun you'd long be dead
Dec 02 02:07:34 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> you don't need java
Dec 02 02:07:37 <Dave> hahaha
Dec 02 02:07:38 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> use python
Dec 02 02:07:40 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> c
Dec 02 02:07:42 <Dave> yes
Dec 02 02:07:43 <jc> I think thats the ultimate vendor lock-in :D :D :D
Dec 02 02:07:44 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> c++
Dec 02 02:07:45 <Dave> perl
Dec 02 02:07:46 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> vala
Dec 02 02:07:47 <jc> lol
Dec 02 02:07:55 <raster> c
Dec 02 02:07:58 <Dave> fucking jc
Dec 02 02:08:04 <jc> rofl
Dec 02 02:08:04 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> lisp, whitespaces, ...
Dec 02 02:08:08 <Dave> DON'T GIVE THEM IDEAS!
Dec 02 02:08:17 <Dave> ssssh, Apple could be listening!
Dec 02 02:08:21 * Dave :x
Dec 02 02:08:25 <jc> but you gotta admit that was a good one :D
Dec 02 02:08:55 <jc> maybe the european union can start a huge space uv lamp project to demonopolize the solar industry
Dec 02 02:09:09 <Dave> \o/
Dec 02 02:09:20 * raster buys the sun
Dec 02 02:09:23 <raster> MUHAHAHAH
Dec 02 02:09:26 <raster> its all mine
Dec 02 02:09:28 <raster> MINE!
Dec 02 02:09:55 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> raster: ok, if I own a sphere around it
Dec 02 02:10:25 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> I don't want any gasses or light from your sun in my sphere
Dec 02 02:10:39 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> HA!
Dec 02 02:10:42 <Dave> raster, may I lease a nice part of the corona?
Dec 02 02:10:47 <Dave> ;)
Dec 02 02:11:27 <raster> quatrox|zZzzzZzz: try stop them! :) 
Dec 02 02:11:42 <SuN> Ok STOP it, IRC client lighting up like a christmas tree.
Dec 02 02:11:44 <raster> Dave: sure. nice spot for fishing :)
Dec 02 02:11:47 <jc> maybe sun will get sued soon, world economy is running dry
Dec 02 02:11:52 <Dave> :)
Dec 02 02:11:55 <raster> hahahah
Dec 02 02:12:19 <jc> less light, more cars and mcdonalds foods for everyone
Dec 02 02:14:04 <Dave> barf
Dec 02 02:15:00 <jc> so anyway, who's the taoist in openmoko community ?
Dec 02 02:15:11 * rooly sighs
Dec 02 02:15:12 <jc> really, the 'manual' was a very pleasant suprise
Dec 02 02:15:13 <rooly> blergh
Dec 02 02:15:18 <jc> really got me into the hacking mood
Dec 02 02:15:33 <rooly> 4000 messages to download on my phone via imap
Dec 02 02:20:23 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> hmm
Dec 02 02:20:36 <rooly> and wifi
Dec 02 02:20:46 <rooly> why is the wifi so slow? is it because the phone itself is slow?
Dec 02 02:21:04 <jc> how do you define 'wifi is slow' ?
Dec 02 02:21:50 <mwester-laptop> wifi is busted in the "stable" kernel.
Dec 02 02:21:53 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> rooly: they wrote a gpio driver
Dec 02 02:21:53 <rooly> all my internet operations seem slow, altho it could quite easily be because of the gui
Dec 02 02:22:06 <jc> ar6k could use some documenting
Dec 02 02:22:23 <jc> and support for forcing 802.11b mode
Dec 02 02:22:36 <jc> needed for example for my broken wap
Dec 02 02:22:36 <rooly> mwester-laptop: i'm using your qte kernel atm
Dec 02 02:22:44 <mwester-laptop> as soon as the 2.6.28-or-so kernel gets a bit more stable, we can switch to it (which will require user-space changes) -- wifi will be much, much better.
Dec 02 02:23:01 <mwester-laptop> rooly: Yep, wifi is borked on that 2.6.24 kernel.
Dec 02 02:23:10 <jc> well you should benchmark with like ftp transfer or something
Dec 02 02:23:29 <jc> (of large files)
Dec 02 02:23:42 * mwester-laptop can't benchmark it, 'cause it doesn't stay associated with his WPA access point long enough :(
Dec 02 02:23:43 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> ...from lan
Dec 02 02:23:59 * rooly runs only open networks...thanks to the dmca
Dec 02 02:23:59 <jc> then you maybe got the same problem as me
Dec 02 02:24:03 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> wpa????
Dec 02 02:24:13 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> disable wpa
Dec 02 02:24:22 <jc> whenever I do large bandwidth data transmission, my link breaks up
Dec 02 02:24:29 <jc> does the same on my laptop with this wap
Dec 02 02:24:31 <mwester-laptop> not a chance.  my neighbors are NOT welcome to use my network.
Dec 02 02:24:35 <jc> but only in g mode
Dec 02 02:24:45 <frojnd> Talking about security, will open moko ever support wpa ENTERPRISE ?
Dec 02 02:24:47 <rooly> lol, mwester-laptop, whitelist mac addresses
Dec 02 02:25:06 <jc> I don't mind people using my wifi
Dec 02 02:25:20 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> mwester-laptop: openvpn? Mac-filter? hidden essid,
Dec 02 02:25:21 <mwester-laptop> mac addresses are incredibly easy to change.   That'll just be a challenge, and encourage them.
Dec 02 02:25:22 <rooly> or better yet, have 2 separate networks, a wpa one and an open one with your FR whitelisted
Dec 02 02:25:24 <jc> I know the awful feeling when you just got to find a train home and cant find anywhere to connect to internet
Dec 02 02:26:04 <jc> maybe not really practical here but its evil to have cheap broadband and not  share at least a little slice around, maybe qosed low
Dec 02 02:26:24 * rooly agrees
Dec 02 02:27:12 * averybody agrees
Dec 02 02:28:05 * mwester-laptop has a wpa-protected guest wlan -- just ask for the key if you're a guest here.  But it's for guests, not the cheapo neighbors.
Dec 02 02:28:07 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> arrrggg...   s/av/ev/g
Dec 02 02:28:37 <mwester-laptop> quatrox|zzZzzzzz: you lost the moment. ;)
Dec 02 02:28:48 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> yes
Dec 02 02:28:54 * rooly sighs
Dec 02 02:28:57 <rooly> 4000 emails
Dec 02 02:28:59 <rooly> ...
Dec 02 02:29:58 <jc> well if they piss you off
Dec 02 02:30:16 <jc> makes sense to blacklist theyr macs then
Dec 02 02:30:31 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> no
Dec 02 02:30:46 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> blacklist is useless
Dec 02 02:30:54 <rooly> yeah
Dec 02 02:30:55 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> use whitelisting
Dec 02 02:31:05 <jc> normal people usually cant change theyr mac addressess
Dec 02 02:31:21 <rooly> but its not hard
Dec 02 02:31:27 <jc> and you still want other people to have at least limited access
Dec 02 02:31:28 <rooly> you can do it even from windows command line
Dec 02 02:31:30 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> if two devices has same mac, both gets disconnected, right?
Dec 02 02:31:49 <mwester-laptop> I wish you knew these kids.  bad lot.  they would take any "black list" or "white list" as a personal challenge, and work harder to break in -- and then, just because I deliberately tried to keep them out, they would do some damage if they could.  bad bad lot.
Dec 02 02:31:53 <jc> of course not, but they usually just turn the thing on, it tells them it found the signal, they connect and the'yre happy
Dec 02 02:32:14 <rooly> here's an idea
Dec 02 02:32:19 <jc> theyr mac gets banned, they're kicked out by ap, cant associate, windoze tells them it cannoct connect, they give up
Dec 02 02:32:37 <cjb> my AP's essid is "PasswordsSuck".  :)
Dec 02 02:32:44 <mwester-laptop> they download kesmit (or whatever it is), and go at it.
Dec 02 02:32:45 <rooly> throw a Faraday cage in between your antenna and their living space
Dec 02 02:32:53 <mwester-laptop> Now that's an idea.
Dec 02 02:33:00 <rooly> then no trouble at all
Dec 02 02:33:04 <jc> script kiddies and phreaks usually find a way
Dec 02 02:33:20 <jc> one mofo totally taken down our school wifi network last week
Dec 02 02:33:27 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> kismet
Dec 02 02:33:31 <mwester-laptop> But just going with WPA like everyone else in the neighborhood is just as good -- my network is invisible in the crowd. :)
Dec 02 02:33:37 <jc> he had some script that sequentially took mac addressess of all associated clients
Dec 02 02:33:39 <jc> asshole..
Dec 02 02:33:48 <jc> he thinks hes a king
Dec 02 02:33:53 <jc> wifi isn't so hard to take down
Dec 02 02:34:05 <cjb> in countries in Latin America, pretty much every random desktop can change its MAC
Dec 02 02:34:11 <cjb> because they're all clone machines, no brand names
Dec 02 02:34:12 <jc> here to
Dec 02 02:34:16 <jc> but people are dumb
Dec 02 02:34:28 <jc> they dont find the mac field in netcard settings or bios
Dec 02 02:34:37 <jc> and if they do, they dunno what it means
Dec 02 02:35:07 <jc> really, on a village 99% people dunno the chunky looking ugly mobile phone in your pocket is actually a great hacking tool and companion :D
Dec 02 02:35:09 <mwester-laptop> One of the big problems with locking down mac addresses is historical -- Digital Equipment Corporation.
Dec 02 02:35:37 <jc> and what is that ?
Dec 02 02:36:52 <mwester-laptop> DECnet ran directly on top of ethernet, and when you assigned a DEC system its node id number, the last digits of the MAC address had to change to match.  So compatability with DECnet drove the requirement for ifconfig to allow MAC addr changing.
Dec 02 02:37:26 <jc> thats braindead
Dec 02 02:37:40 <mwester-laptop> totally.  complete violation of all the layering rules.
Dec 02 02:38:15 <jc> network layer address shouldnt have anything to do with link layer address
Dec 02 02:38:45 <rooly> christ...my phone is still downloading emails
Dec 02 02:38:58 <jc> wth
Dec 02 02:39:09 <jc> batteries in my stylus are suddenly shot
Dec 02 02:39:10 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> but it is nice that one can change it, no?
Dec 02 02:39:21 <rooly> thank god i did this over wifi and not gsm dialup
Dec 02 02:39:23 <jc> nice to have freedom, true
Dec 02 02:39:30 <raster> there was one time.. when sgi fucked up
Dec 02 02:39:37 <raster> and delivered a whole batch of machines to a lab
Dec 02 02:39:42 <raster> all with the same mac address set
Dec 02 02:40:04 <raster> they had some nice problems setting up their network until they noticed it was that all the mac addrs were the same
Dec 02 02:40:09 <raster> thank god they could change them
Dec 02 02:40:10 <rooly> hmm...i wonder if gsm dialup will be faster than wifi
Dec 02 02:40:10 <raster> :)
Dec 02 02:40:35 <jc> :D
Dec 02 02:40:38 <jc> thats nasty
Dec 02 02:40:55 <slaxxin> 1 cool prank
Dec 02 02:41:02 <jc> I thought they burned that to a rom inside the controller during manufacture
Dec 02 02:41:22 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> they do
Dec 02 02:41:34 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> but you map the memory
Dec 02 02:41:49 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> and overwrite
Dec 02 02:41:53 <jc> well either you use it or dont
Dec 02 02:42:26 <jc> anyway 2 things I don't like in todays supposedly most universal portocol - usb
Dec 02 02:42:35 <jc> VID/PID allocation - there is no generic one for hackers
Dec 02 02:42:46 <jc> and extreme complexity
Dec 02 02:43:05 <jc> ooh sweet old rs-232
Dec 02 02:43:09 <jc> so many fun memories
Dec 02 02:43:14 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> usb 3.0 will be slightly better
Dec 02 02:43:23 <rooly> i wonder if there are any real-time chat programs for qte
Dec 02 02:43:26 <jc> now slowly disappearing in a mist of avr-usb ugly hacking and endpoint definitions
Dec 02 02:43:55 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> jc:???????????
Dec 02 02:44:06 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> no mor max232?
Dec 02 02:44:15 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> *more
Dec 02 02:44:21 <jc> 4050 is cheaper :D
Dec 02 02:44:42 <jc> yes the voltage was a problem
Dec 02 02:44:44 <jc> but only a minor one
Dec 02 02:44:59 <jc> compared to all the stress you have with usb
Dec 02 02:45:02 * mwester-laptop thinks the serial port will be around for a long while, although the RS232 spec isn't very common anymore.
Dec 02 02:45:16 <jc> you could hook a led onto a CTS /GND line and blink it without any hardware
Dec 02 02:45:18 <jc> that was cool
Dec 02 02:45:52 <jc> also - without any programming - use serial buffers to extend number of controllable pins from 3 to n
Dec 02 02:46:10 <jc> (or use parallel port :D but I didnt come across that)
Dec 02 02:46:24 <jc> well my laptop doesnt have it
Dec 02 02:46:33 <jc> and I really really hate that fact
Dec 02 02:47:01 <jc> hard to program avrs
Dec 02 02:47:13 <jc> usb programmers arent cheap or easy to implement
Dec 02 02:47:30 <quatrox|zzZzzzzz> i use my parport to switch on/off lights, etc
Dec 02 02:47:33 <jc> although I see a little sparkle of light in I2C busses from VGA and DVI connectors
Dec 02 02:47:54 <jc> those are easily hookable
Dec 02 02:48:00 <jc> but not entirely safe I guess
Dec 02 02:49:42 <jc> also its a shame you cant hook to it externally on FR
Dec 02 02:49:58 <jc> I think openpandora has external uart
Dec 02 02:50:01 <raster> vga or dvi?
Dec 02 02:50:04 <jc> they're really pro-hacker
Dec 02 02:50:09 <jc> both have it, afaik
Dec 02 02:50:39 <mwester-laptop> What really annoys me is that Andy had a brilliant idea for the GTA03, and Om's unbelievable management nixed it.
Dec 02 02:50:52 <raster> which one?
Dec 02 02:51:34 <mwester-laptop> Take the space used by the debug connector, and put an ftdi serial-usb chip, and a micro connector on-board so that you no longer need a debug board for console access.
Dec 02 02:51:49 <jc> cool
Dec 02 02:52:15 <jc> also it would be possible to use BT uart hooked to uart on the soc
Dec 02 02:52:19 <raster> oooh
Dec 02 02:52:26 <raster> yeah
Dec 02 02:52:30 <raster> that got nixed
Dec 02 02:53:26 <jc> I just hope my effort with glamo pays of anyhow
Dec 02 02:54:15 <jc> I think that would be a major milestone of saving FR to be usable
Dec 02 02:54:26 <raster> tho imho the whole debug connecter is a bit ugly
Dec 02 02:54:33 <jc> the cpu isnt bad at all
Dec 02 02:54:38 <raster> it'd be nice not to need any such thing
Dec 02 02:54:44 <raster> recycle an existing connector
Dec 02 02:54:56 <jc> oh yeah
Dec 02 02:55:01 <raster> jc: it wont change anything
Dec 02 02:55:03 <jc> and the 2.5 mm jack idea is ugly too
Dec 02 02:55:04 <kd8ikt> cmon now mwester then how will they get extra $ from people for a dboard :D
Dec 02 02:55:09 <raster> glamo imho is a lost cause
Dec 02 02:55:17 <mwester-laptop> Yep.  If you do it right, you can even drive the jtag with the ftdi chip.
Dec 02 02:55:41 <jc> mwester-laptop thats very inpractical
Dec 02 02:55:51 <mwester-laptop> so is the debug board
Dec 02 02:56:05 <jc> jtag is awful state machine that needs extreme clock to debug/program fast
Dec 02 02:56:20 <mwester-laptop> ftdi chip can do very fast clocks
Dec 02 02:56:26 <jc> paralel port jtag adapters take tens of minutes to program few mbit flashes
Dec 02 02:56:46 <jc> usable sloely for rescue purposes... debricking
Dec 02 02:57:00 <mwester-laptop> this isn't a parallel port approach; the ftdi uses gpios, basically.
Dec 02 02:57:17 <jc> its uart right ?
Dec 02 02:57:26 <kd8ikt> maybe OM has something else in mind
Dec 02 02:57:41 <jc> you send debug data output one way and receive it the other
Dec 02 02:57:43 <jc> so maybe fifo ?
Dec 02 02:59:01 <jc> anyway I just like the expression 'bricked' :D
Dec 02 02:59:09 <jc> our language doesn't have anything like that
Dec 02 02:59:40 <jc> I wonder if you could make a house out of all the bricked ndses worldwide
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 02 02:59:57 2008