**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Mar 17 02:59:57 2009 Mar 17 03:41:17 * SeligArkin looks around Mar 17 03:52:16 SeligArkin: your pillow ;) Mar 17 03:52:47 what about it? Mar 17 03:53:20 it's still here :D Mar 17 03:53:36 * DocScrutinizer throws pillow back Mar 17 03:53:42 hehe Mar 17 03:53:49 * SeligArkin lays her head on it Mar 17 03:54:15 ahh, you missed it so you couldn't sleep Mar 17 03:54:24 hehe Mar 17 03:54:35 * SeligArkin throws DocScrutinizer a spare pillow Mar 17 03:54:45 thanks Mar 17 03:54:48 :D Mar 17 04:41:05 so, I stuck a sim with signal (but data only) in my bv4 and I do show a connection but how do I get gprs turned on in shr? what do I have to do? Mar 17 04:57:03 nothing on wiki? Mar 17 04:58:01 * DocScrutinizer yawns Mar 17 04:58:39 early dawning, time to sleep Mar 17 05:11:13 slaxxin: I guess you have an empty line (=newline) in the beginning (=line 1) and it doesn't like it (=unexpected) Mar 17 06:11:44 is there a mail app that works with SSL/TLS? Mar 17 06:42:19 anything i should know before ordering a 850 version phone for NJ (USA) user? i'm about to submit my cc# to sdgsystems.com for one... $386.41 is my total. can't afford it- but .... somehow about it to get it anyway. Mar 17 06:43:26 i was also wondering what th cheapest cell plan i can get for it is and from who... Mar 17 06:46:36 Read the mailing list archives. Don't order the phone until you have a good idea of the current state of the software and hardware. It's not "end-user-ready" yet. Mar 17 06:48:02 mmontour not too concerned. i know it is a developer phone. i figure i can always switch out the software if need be. Mar 17 06:48:41 OK, just want to make sure you know what you're getting. There are lots of software options to choose from Mar 17 06:48:44 bootup: happy with slow data? Mar 17 06:49:00 slow data? Mar 17 06:49:06 plain 2g Mar 17 06:49:15 do you want to know what i have now? Mar 17 06:49:18 as opposed to edge or 3g (umts, hspa etc.) Mar 17 06:49:25 haha- ok Mar 17 06:49:29 let me tell you what i have now Mar 17 06:49:51 2g (gprs) on the gta02 will maybe max out at 40mbit - if u are lucky Mar 17 06:49:57 errl kbit Mar 17 06:49:59 sorry Mar 17 06:50:03 20kbit is more likely Mar 17 06:50:55 i have a 5 year old LG vx3100 with a b/w screen and have never used the data features beyond SMS Mar 17 06:51:13 aaah Mar 17 06:51:31 you use your phone a lot? Mar 17 06:51:36 rely on it? Mar 17 06:51:36 i'm actually more interested in the 802.11 Mar 17 06:52:12 i do rely on it for receiving business calls- is it reasonably reliable? Mar 17 06:52:46 dont trust your business on it Mar 17 06:53:04 its not that level of reliability Mar 17 06:53:10 i'm actually planning to use it to replace my palm m5xx series that i've been replacing year after year with old models (since nobody has put out anything better since ) Mar 17 06:53:14 more a matter of software + gsm firmware Mar 17 06:53:35 well- i'm still not convinced Mar 17 06:53:38 i mean- how bad is it? Mar 17 06:53:57 if the basic phone calls come through usually .... that's enough for me. Mar 17 06:54:27 dont get rid of your old phone Mar 17 06:54:30 thats my advice4 Mar 17 06:54:32 :) Mar 17 06:54:32 i take it the software on it isn't the problem? Mar 17 06:54:46 hmm why are you telling me this Mar 17 06:54:47 err Mar 17 06:54:50 thats part of the problem Mar 17 06:54:57 as well as the gsm firmware Mar 17 06:55:05 you want to do research Mar 17 06:55:16 check the state of the freerunner software right now Mar 17 06:55:18 i thought it was at a pretty acceptable point Mar 17 06:55:26 i actually havent kept up with the absolute latest Mar 17 06:55:39 aww- i think i'd like to get it and try it for myself Mar 17 06:55:41 the problem is you have lots of choices Mar 17 06:55:42 android Mar 17 06:55:46 qte Mar 17 06:55:49 2008.x Mar 17 06:55:51 or shr Mar 17 06:55:57 (and other variations) Mar 17 06:56:00 yea- but the neo freerunner is like the phone to get Mar 17 06:56:01 those are the major ones Mar 17 06:56:07 each has its quirks/problems Mar 17 06:56:08 There have been some recent fixes to the GSM firmware that should help the reliabilty a lot. Mar 17 06:56:22 it's based on the openmoko project which aims to be a 'free' phone Mar 17 06:56:42 umm Mar 17 06:56:45 openmoko is a company Mar 17 06:56:47 not a project Mar 17 06:56:58 the freerunner is their 2nd phone they made and actually sold Mar 17 06:57:23 there is an openmoko "distro" in openembedded Mar 17 06:57:26 hmm wait.. let me think about this. Mar 17 06:57:30 which is a derivation of angstomr Mar 17 06:57:41 that distro is intended to work well on the openmoko gta01/02 Mar 17 06:57:51 (02 == freeunner. 01 == neo 1973) Mar 17 06:58:03 Openmokoâ„¢ is a project dedicated to delivering mobile phones with an open source software stack. Openmoko is currently selling the Neo FreeRunner phone to advanced users and will start selling it to the general public as soon as the software is more developed. Mar 17 06:58:22 did i miss something ? Mar 17 06:58:24 If you need your phone for business then I recommend keeping your old phone and buying a cheap prepaid SIM to go with the Freerunner (until you're satisfied with the reliability). Mar 17 06:58:37 yup Mar 17 06:58:41 mmontour that's actually what i was thinking Mar 17 06:58:54 if u want the freerunner as a toy to hack with that u can kinda use for calls - then do it Mar 17 06:58:59 audio quality is still a big issue Mar 17 06:59:19 buzzing still is an issue i believe that requires soldering to fix - right? Mar 17 06:59:19 hmm is it really that bad? hmm dang. Mar 17 06:59:30 and generally audio is bad - echoey, low volume Mar 17 06:59:45 so you cant hear others/they cant hear u unless you are in a dead quiet room Mar 17 06:59:59 but that may have improved slightly with fiddling with alsa settings Mar 17 07:00:15 but u will always have a level of echo just due to hardware design - the case is hollow and echoey Mar 17 07:00:24 thys allowing audio to leak from speaker to mic Mar 17 07:00:52 There was a big improvement in the echo problem when someone found an undocumented Calypso command to turn on echo suppression Mar 17 07:01:03 mmontour: aaah awesome Mar 17 07:01:23 "suppression" = it mutes the microphone below a certain threshold. It's not perfect Mar 17 07:01:24 * eolson has no echo problems anymore, either -- recent distros (fso for example) have this fix included Mar 17 07:01:33 hmm i thought i'd actually be able to use this as a phone. i'm not sure i want to shell out almost $400 for a wifi handheld. Mar 17 07:02:00 You can probably get a used one for around $250 Mar 17 07:02:07 bootup: if u want a toy - get it Mar 17 07:02:09 where? Mar 17 07:02:15 but beware what u are getting into Mar 17 07:02:25 bootup: ebay Mar 17 07:02:27 I've seen a few mailing-list posts, and there's a "Classifieds" page on the wiki Mar 17 07:02:37 also people keep selling theirs on the openmoko community mailing list Mar 17 07:02:50 every few days ro so someone mails out "selling mine" Mar 17 07:03:09 hmm probably not a good sign Mar 17 07:03:26 mind you, any state of development with openmoko is likely to be more reliable than a windows based fone :-> Mar 17 07:03:40 even if i ended up just using it as a wifi device or handheld organizer $250 isn't so bad Mar 17 07:04:00 Blu3: impirically i can tell you that that is wrong. even a windows phone is much more reliable. Mar 17 07:04:23 i've had 3. they eat data, lock up, corrupt, crash, and do unexpected things constantly Mar 17 07:04:52 I'm gonna have to learn about enlightenment code and start working on the gadgets in the top shelf -- they are very glitchy when the shelf shrinks, way too small (the illume gadgets), and overall there are bugs with the top shelf's rendering, such as clock rendering atop arrow. also...there must be some way to get faster response than this Mar 17 07:04:59 the display is so slow Mar 17 07:05:08 i've owned and held my gta2 for 12 hours and it's already proven more reliable Mar 17 07:05:23 (working on a gta01bv4 btw) Mar 17 07:05:43 also, is there some way to set up gprs settings in the latest shr? Mar 17 07:06:29 Blu3: got a winmo6.1 one here... works like a charm. has yet to crash at all Mar 17 07:06:33 or lock up Mar 17 07:06:34 i've also had 3 windows phones just die or have broken screens -- I haven't broken the openmoko phone yet, no screen protector, only dropped once. Mar 17 07:06:36 or lose data Mar 17 07:06:39 or drop a call Mar 17 07:06:45 or miss a call or sms etc. Mar 17 07:08:10 raster, you've got the anti-lemon win phone. i've had three different models based on w5 and w6 over the last three years. i place zero trust in them. Mar 17 07:08:50 how does the g1 or any other 'open' phone compare with the neo freerunner? Mar 17 07:08:57 the g1 isn't open Mar 17 07:09:01 in terms of 'openess'? Mar 17 07:09:03 you don't get root on i Mar 17 07:09:06 it^ Mar 17 07:09:07 aww Mar 17 07:09:14 you would have to jailbreak it, and I think they closed the hole Mar 17 07:09:20 my bf had a winfone too. daily reboots are required. the only problem i've run into w/ my FR is the mail app isn't working with SSL/TLS Mar 17 07:09:23 well, which phones can you get that are 'open' Mar 17 07:10:22 i'm not interested in another locked or 'unlocked' phone. i want' something completely open sourced-to the extent at least that the neo freerunner is - competitively anyway. Mar 17 07:10:40 shr-testing do not like my vcf phonebook. DbusAccessScripts no not seam to work for me. Was fine to import in Om1008.12. Only sim phonebook in shr-testing!? Mar 17 07:10:41 raster, have you lost calls with fso 4 or fso 5? Mar 17 07:12:38 eolson: i havent use them as the audio quality was so awful i wouldnt trust my sim card in it to actually be able to make a call Mar 17 07:12:49 i have used it at times as a phone and it totally failed on all the counts Mar 17 07:12:54 eg suspended and didnt wake up Mar 17 07:12:59 answeredf call and no audio Mar 17 07:13:14 or answered and i couldnt hear other party enough to know what was being said and vice/versa Mar 17 07:13:28 (was in a bar - and all my other phones are usable in such noise situations - except gta02) Mar 17 07:13:35 raster, sound is great for me -- I have had the no sound problem about 3 times in the last 3 or 4 months Mar 17 07:13:50 so after several tries to use it as my main phone i just relegated it to a toy yo hack with Mar 17 07:14:44 * Quinn_Storm isn't even sure what kind of hacking she wants to do on her gta01...agrees, at the moment its no daily use phone Mar 17 07:15:55 raster, I do have to keep the window closed on the highway when talking on it (so max volume is probably less than other phones) but otherwise have good sound. Haven't tried in bars -- probably also bad Mar 17 07:16:42 eolson: i tend to find myself.. in bars a lot Mar 17 07:16:47 and the gta02 was unusable Mar 17 07:16:58 other phones i have had and do have are "just" usable Mar 17 07:17:01 hmm, odd, the lite image I flashed to its nand is better in some ways than the 'full' image I stuck on its sd Mar 17 07:17:04 gta02 just falls a bit too low there Mar 17 07:17:26 Quinn_Storm: sd card io is attrociously slow Mar 17 07:17:37 even flash is incredibly slow Mar 17 07:17:39 2-3m/sec Mar 17 07:17:42 sd io is worse Mar 17 07:17:44 < 1m/s Mar 17 07:17:48 I see Mar 17 07:17:52 * rhkfin feels like raster's not happy with Freerunner :) Mar 17 07:17:58 raster, :) ah, well that would be a problem if gta02 is not loud enough in a bar Mar 17 07:18:00 Many others are :) Mar 17 07:18:00 the nand image also had some extra options when I started it for the first time Mar 17 07:18:40 raster, mind sharing your current daily phone? Mar 17 07:18:58 the model that is Mar 17 07:20:23 just curious, cause I can't see myself getting a different phone -- no other phones let me do as much as the neo Mar 17 07:21:42 eolson: samsung i780 Mar 17 07:22:53 cool, thanks, always good to compare Mar 17 07:23:21 eolson: what are you running on your neo right now? (I imagine its the freerunner right?) Mar 17 07:23:58 raster i just lost all respect for you Mar 17 07:23:59 it's gta01 -- running fso 4 -- i've been meaning to upgrade to fso 5, just been too busy Mar 17 07:24:11 ok, I'm trying experimental fso builds...fso4 is good? Mar 17 07:24:15 can you get gprs on it? Mar 17 07:25:27 fso 4 is ok, i think fso 5 is probably more stable (also should do with gsm firmware update) Mar 17 07:25:36 yeah, already did the firmware update Mar 17 07:25:43 in fact I figured out how to fix a broken gta01 Mar 17 07:26:03 well, I was the guinea pig Mar 17 07:26:07 other smart ppl in here figured it out Mar 17 07:26:24 I could try going all the way back to 5 from this experimental release Mar 17 07:27:26 cool. gprs works with fso 4 -- i have the multiplexing bug if I try to load too many things at once (gsm hang/crash_ -- it's a known bug that was fixed at some point, but I can't say which distro download has that fix Mar 17 07:27:28 bootup: dude... its a good piece of hardware. Mar 17 07:27:35 bootup: and it also can run linux :) Mar 17 07:27:41 bootup: i'm waiting to get my sources for it Mar 17 07:28:03 raster it runs a microsoft product... ! Mar 17 07:28:22 I imagine you could make WM run on the gta01/02 too if you wanted Mar 17 07:28:28 i mean- i feel guilty about having a cell phone ... and having a palm pilot... but seriously a ms phone? no way. Mar 17 07:28:55 bootup: http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/limo-linux-on-three-phones/14497732 Mar 17 07:29:06 Quinn_Storm, so basically I turn image loading off with midori and hit stop before I hit a new url (man I need to try upgrading fso) Mar 17 07:29:31 raster you missed the whole point Mar 17 07:29:52 cool, the latest images don't have good gprs setup stuff, I'll try downloading the v5 image Mar 17 07:29:57 raster adapting a phone designed to run ms products is just contributing to the problem... Mar 17 07:30:07 I have the SIM in it right now out of my datacard so its a data only plan Mar 17 07:30:25 Quinn_Storm: what distro are you trying? For daily use I'd recommend 2008.12 (+kustomizer) Mar 17 07:30:50 SHRv5 Mar 17 07:30:56 and what's 'kustomizer'? Mar 17 07:31:04 Quinn_Storm, ok, but fyi, I just run the start gprs script from the wiki Mar 17 07:31:08 ah Mar 17 07:31:16 * Quinn_Storm doesn't know much about 2008.12/kustomizer Mar 17 07:31:21 script to install required stuff: http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openmoko.org%2Fwiki%2FKustomizer&ei=uVG_SYq7OJPN-QbB8PioDw&usg=AFQjCNGgCewINCbHL524eiuVognNALY3Xw&sig2=kwujadtKWRNc6oHj8Twe4g Mar 17 07:31:24 bootup: its not DESIGNEd to run ms stuff Mar 17 07:31:26 oops.. Mar 17 07:31:32 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Kustomizer Mar 17 07:31:33 raster: sexy stuff in this video Mar 17 07:31:34 its an arm system just with stnadard components Mar 17 07:31:49 you write a few drivers for the less standard and bingo Mar 17 07:31:55 raster: it comes with ms software? Mar 17 07:31:55 its no different Mar 17 07:32:10 Quinn_Storm: btw, SHR unstable is based on FSO git HEAD, so i'd suggest to go with that. Mar 17 07:32:20 Any idea of runnning that LiMo stuff on Freerunner? Mar 17 07:32:21 raster if the thing has a ms logo on it- it's designed for ms by my standard. Mar 17 07:32:22 Quinn_Storm: if you plan to hack, that is. Mar 17 07:32:33 what should I try to just make some use of the device? Mar 17 07:32:39 bootup: let me put it this way... i know people... and i have a lot of "stuff" for modifying software on samsung devices. Mar 17 07:32:40 :) Mar 17 07:32:47 Quinn_Storm: 2008.x is a dead-born derivative of qtopia ported to X. Mar 17 07:32:49 PaulFert`: er, should I build FSO git HEAD you mean? Mar 17 07:32:55 I see Mar 17 07:33:01 Quinn_Storm: i guess you'd build SHR unstable Mar 17 07:33:05 PaulFert`: but it works.. I know it's dead but.. it works.. Mar 17 07:33:10 in the end is no different to a pc in that way Mar 17 07:33:11 * Quinn_Storm already installed SHR unstable on it Mar 17 07:33:16 u can then think that if u buy any pc or laptop Mar 17 07:33:19 it is made to run windows Mar 17 07:33:22 its the same thing Mar 17 07:33:26 no different Mar 17 07:33:28 rhkfin: i use FSO HEAD for more than 2 month, it works too. Mar 17 07:33:28 * rhkfin has never tried SHR and can't say anything about it.. Mar 17 07:33:36 PaulFert`: ok :) Mar 17 07:33:37 raster true. sadly. Mar 17 07:34:08 raster, are you saying openmoko should make a laptop :) Mar 17 07:34:15 raster: bootup there are computers without windows logos on them and without windows.... Mar 17 07:34:41 raster another reason i avoid to the extent possible buying products with ms affiliations and/or ms software. Mar 17 07:34:44 Quinn_Storm: really, the community effort is focused on SHR now. Looks like it's the way to go. Or you can install Debian and enjoy tweaking lxde, writing your own dialer (or using lindi-'s Kapula) etc. It'll be still FSO-based. Mar 17 07:34:59 lol Mar 17 07:35:04 ok, I'll stick with the SHR image Mar 17 07:35:11 wish we had something other than a script for gprs Mar 17 07:35:14 Agree, SHR is the way to go Mar 17 07:35:22 I'd also like to get back that nifty click on tap Mar 17 07:35:22 bootup: samsung make phones with a wide variety of operating system Mar 17 07:35:29 made it so much easier to know when it recognized a tap Mar 17 07:35:29 Quinn_Storm: opkg.org just received a gui from someone for gprs Mar 17 07:35:33 they have actually been doing linux phones for several years Mar 17 07:35:37 rhkfin: cool Mar 17 07:35:40 some are more aimed at windows than other operating systems. things like the bios and acpi tables are perverted Mar 17 07:35:40 but intelligence prevails and *nix people adapt and overcome Mar 17 07:35:44 the i780 is just plain good hardware Mar 17 07:35:50 rhkfin ohh yea? other than a few netbooks there aren't any notebooks that come without ms windows logos on the keyboard with the exception of the older generation lenovo/ibms. toshibia and some others just move the ms key to an usual spot. Mar 17 07:35:51 its slip, has excellent batery life Mar 17 07:35:53 a qwretry kbd Mar 17 07:35:55 a decent screen Mar 17 07:35:58 3g, wifi Mar 17 07:36:09 AND... it already has a linux port Mar 17 07:36:20 and one that is not from a bunch of reverse-engineered hackers Mar 17 07:36:58 raster: i know they do. that doesn't change the fact if you buy a phone with ms windows mobile and adapt it/modify it for gnu/linux that you aren't contributing to ms and reducing the pressure of manufacturers to support gnu/liux and open source. Mar 17 07:37:41 i didnt' buy mine Mar 17 07:37:42 :) Mar 17 07:37:48 people tend to hand me these things Mar 17 07:38:11 raster: if you don't sell it you are contributor the ms monopoly and proprietary software. Mar 17 07:38:22 i will say tho win mobile is an annoying piece of shit Mar 17 07:38:27 it pisses me off Mar 17 07:38:31 but it is reliable and works Mar 17 07:38:44 bootup: ooh ptoohey Mar 17 07:38:53 is that the only wimo fone you've had? Mar 17 07:38:58 Blu3: yes. Mar 17 07:39:01 its 6.1 Mar 17 07:39:11 and so far reliable is something i'd use to describe it Mar 17 07:39:13 Quinn_Storm: actually it's a dbus call to activate GPRS. Probably it's already used by shr-settings. If not, you can add a button there... Mar 17 07:39:17 but its ui is generally crappy Mar 17 07:39:23 as is ui workflow Mar 17 07:39:30 you should try some others. wimo and reliable don't go in the same paragraph Mar 17 07:39:44 PaulFert`: I don't know much at all about the layout of SHR, I just started looking at the current state of OM software Mar 17 07:40:55 Blu3: maybe its more a matter of the vendor, not winmo? Mar 17 07:40:58 Quinn_Storm: SHR is a community effort that is using FSO as a middleware. Mar 17 07:41:08 ie they likely write extra software/.drivers for their device Mar 17 07:41:23 and those are just badly done Mar 17 07:41:46 most of my problems are wimo centric Mar 17 07:42:15 whihc versions? Mar 17 07:42:27 from 5.0 to 6.1 Mar 17 07:43:29 i gotta wander off to bed, cheers Mar 17 07:46:43 hmm Mar 17 07:46:51 well 6.1 on this i780 has been reliable Mar 17 07:47:02 i need to get linux on it... waiting on that Mar 17 07:53:04 PaulFert`: I see that dos1 improved the gprs part of shr-settings yesterday Mar 17 07:53:31 spaetz: cool. Too bad i don't use SHR :( Mar 17 07:54:34 :) Mar 17 07:58:31 Quinn_Storm: I added your instructions (slightly altered) to the wiki page. Mar 17 07:59:36 good morning Mar 17 08:21:48 DocScrutinizer: I've altered GSM/Flashing page a lot. Could you please review it? Mar 17 08:27:07 Quinn_Storm: Could you please check if "normal" instructions from the updated GSM/Flashing page work for you? Mar 17 08:27:37 DocScrutinizer: I've altered GSM/Flashing page a lot. Could you please review it? Mar 17 08:27:41 Quinn_Storm: Could you please check if "normal" instructions from the updated GSM/Flashing page work for you? Mar 17 08:29:14 Quinn_Storm: no need to reflash any distro, just kill ophonekitd and proceed as described on the wiki. Mar 17 08:39:51 Hm, for me AT@POFF doesn't work reliably... Mar 17 08:41:00 Probably sleep mode kicks in... Mar 17 08:43:52 Ok, looks like stty settings are needed after all. Mar 17 08:53:24 Verified now that updated instructions work for me every time i try. Probably there's no difference with gta01. Mar 17 12:00:29 anttna: Do you celebrate St. Patrick's? Mar 17 12:01:38 Hi, well it is normal to go to mass (church) in the morning, I don't. Then it is normal to go to seea band in a parade ( Mar 17 12:01:56 ooops i hadn't finished hold on Mar 17 12:02:38 then get pissed in a pub and maybe have a riot in between Mar 17 12:06:21 Or there are a few sports events on like schools rugby and gaelic finals, the al-ireland senior club gaelic football and hurling finals are also on in Dublin, which I have gone to see in past years but not this year, although one of my county's clubs are in the final. I was involved in building traditional boats and I might go now to see if there is anyone going out for a row. How about you? Mar 17 12:06:44 I was joking about the riot, but it does happen from time to time Mar 17 12:08:13 Actuall some of the boats we make are currachs, and St. Patrick was taken from Wales by the Irish as a slave in a similar boat Mar 17 12:08:24 hmm St Patricks day here means I get to tell my ancient crap St Patrick joke : Mar 17 12:08:29 anttna: i'm going to stay at home, practice flute a bit (not irish), soldering a bit. Maybe read. Though it's usually celebrated in Moscow too, with parade and stuff. Concerts of irish music in clubs etc. Mar 17 12:08:50 http://www.loughneaghboats.org/home.html Mar 17 12:08:51 green beverages? Mar 17 12:09:22 There are lots of irish music sessions on too, I forgot about that Mar 17 12:10:04 What did St Patrick say when he drove all the snakes out of Ireland? "Are ye alright in the back there?" Mar 17 12:10:22 tig| :) Mar 17 12:10:39 sorry :) Mar 17 12:13:43 Well as snakes are slow moving they never got to Ireland before the land connections to the rest of Europe were covered by the rising water from the melting ice Mar 17 12:14:53 snakes can swim Mar 17 12:16:30 not in the irish sea they cant, very strong tides Mar 17 12:20:37 would be a big cold for them too Mar 17 12:27:29 * rhkfin didn't remember joining #animal-channel :) Mar 17 12:28:12 moo Mar 17 12:30:28 DocScrutinizer: good morning :) Mar 17 12:30:36 rhkfin: you failed on turingtest on first try Mar 17 12:31:01 oh.. hmm.. moo..? Mar 17 12:31:04 nobody types that fast Mar 17 12:38:36 woof Mar 17 12:45:21 Lá Fhéile Pádraig sona daoibh, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbuRA_D3KU Mar 17 12:47:44 no snakes in ireland? wtf :D Mar 17 12:50:26 always nice to learn something new. Mar 17 13:20:56 Yo. What's the state of affairs as far as headphones go? Mar 17 13:21:47 Digital_Pioneer: bluetooth or wired? Mar 17 13:21:59 Wired Mar 17 13:22:26 I just bought a new pair, and they come with a 2.5mm adaptor. Mar 17 13:22:36 Digital_Pioneer: for GSM or music? Mar 17 13:22:54 They have no mic, so just for music. Mar 17 13:23:06 Digital_Pioneer: if using wired headphoes you will get bad bass Mar 17 13:23:16 unless you have done the fix Mar 17 13:23:38 Digital_Pioneer: also please not that most headphones even with 2.5mm have incompatible pin-out (so you need to rewire it properly). Mar 17 13:23:54 Yeah, so the fix is a hardware mod? Mar 17 13:24:18 jup Mar 17 13:24:22 bt headphones have nice bass$ Mar 17 13:24:26 Digital_Pioneer: and mic in the headphones doesn't matter as it will buzz the hell out of the other party anyway most probably. So you can use any headphones and internal FR mic. Mar 17 13:24:41 Digital_Pioneer: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02_bass_fix Mar 17 13:24:47 if anyone is interested you can watch some of the sports here. I think they are live (but they are in Gaeilge (Irish)) http://tg4.ie/bearla/scei/beo.asp Mar 17 13:24:48 * anttna apologies for going off topic Mar 17 13:25:26 * SeligArkin wanders in Mar 17 13:25:50 Your browser Mozilla is not supported. Mar 17 13:25:50 This service currently available for Mar 17 13:25:50 Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.0 or higher, Mar 17 13:26:12 Fuck, it was meant to be a one line to illustrate the stupidity. Mar 17 13:26:27 PaulFert`: ooooh how 1990s of them :) Mar 17 13:26:55 tig|1: Netscape version 7.0 or higher and FireFox version 1.0 or higher. Mar 17 13:27:37 PaulFert`: Isn't that nice? A site made by morons for morons. :) Mar 17 13:27:41 anttna: That said, i can't understand how to watch the sports online. Can you share a direct link? Mar 17 13:28:18 PaulFert`: So how about BT? Has it become relatively useable? Mar 17 13:28:30 PaulFert: Oh heck I never thought maybe it only works with windows - sorry Mar 17 13:29:03 Has anyone figured out how to pair stuff yet, that is... :P Mar 17 13:29:53 it can be done but I don't think there is a gui Mar 17 13:30:08 and I would think it would suffer the same bass problem Mar 17 13:31:23 Digital_Pioneer: it worked perfect for me with bluez 3.33 Mar 17 13:31:31 with bluz4 it worked one day, and now i can't pair anymore :( Mar 17 13:32:56 Hmm. :( Mar 17 13:33:22 tig|1: Bluetooth doesn't have the bass problem, fortunately. Mar 17 13:33:54 doesn't it? Mar 17 13:34:15 Nope. Mar 17 13:34:45 that is good to hear (literally) then :) Mar 17 13:34:55 The headphone problem is something about a capacitor in the wrong place or something, I'm not sure, but the bluetooth doesn't go through it. Mar 17 13:35:11 Yeah, haha Mar 17 13:35:14 wrong value Mar 17 13:35:24 it works fine for voice, but not so well for bass-heavy music Mar 17 13:35:45 Meanwhile, if only I could get ReMoko working, I'd have a reason to even HAVE bluetooth... :\ Mar 17 13:36:00 remoko? Mar 17 13:36:11 * SpeedEvil isn't keeping up ad the back Mar 17 13:36:17 I had remoko running a while ago but not recently, I was controlling mythtv with it :) Mar 17 13:36:22 ah Mar 17 13:36:35 aaah Mar 17 13:36:39 Digital_Pioneer: if you use bluez4, remoko doesn't yet supports that Mar 17 13:36:45 I don't. Mar 17 13:36:48 3.33 Mar 17 13:37:05 strange... remoko worked on 3.33 for me Mar 17 13:37:12 which distro do you use? Mar 17 13:37:12 reminds me of another mod for FR, to add IrDA Mar 17 13:37:15 Zorkman_: i didn'g have any problem with pairing with bluez4 Mar 17 13:37:34 SHR-unstable Mar 17 13:37:40 PaulFert`: i didn't have the first time, but lately i get (/me searches for a fex ses): Mar 17 13:38:12 PaulFert`: http://pastebin.com/d1cdc4ed1 Mar 17 13:38:12 Zorkman_: probably because it's already paired? Mar 17 13:38:18 (i emailed it to the list, but nobody replied) Mar 17 13:38:54 S/N getting too high on almost all lists Mar 17 13:38:55 Zorkman_: hcid is bluez3 Mar 17 13:39:26 Zorkman_: remove bluez-utils Mar 17 13:39:27 Zorkman_: and bluez-utils-compat Mar 17 13:39:35 but it worked with those installed.... Mar 17 13:39:39 anyway i will try iit Mar 17 13:39:54 Zorkman_: either you use bluez4 or bluez3, not both. I'd not mix them. Mar 17 13:40:12 check Mar 17 13:40:19 With my Remoko, when I connect, even remoko knows it, but then it bugs out and says bluetooth is off... :\ Mar 17 13:40:23 it's just strange that it DID work... Mar 17 13:40:40 http://code.google.com/p/remoko/issues/detail?id=1 My output is at the bottom of that page, if anyone knows how to fix that. Mar 17 13:40:44 Zorkman_: i guess simple-agent is from bluez4 so it's not supposed to work. Mar 17 13:41:10 PaulFert`: it worked with simple-agent, and i need it because i use bluez4 Mar 17 13:42:15 bluez-alsa terribly sucked a year ago btw, for SCO. A twinkle user gone back to btsco instead of blues Mar 17 13:42:38 yeah this isn't about sco I know Mar 17 13:42:41 Zorkman_: you started hcid and it's from bluez3, so no surprise it doesn't work with simple-agent. Mar 17 13:43:01 PaulFert`: i removed the packages you said, and now, when I use shr-settings to power on bluetooth, i can't turn visibility on anymore, the sliders automatically goes back to "off" Mar 17 13:43:04 maybe i need to reboot Mar 17 13:44:10 Zorkman! Mar 17 13:44:34 say the word SeligArkin! Mar 17 13:44:47 Zorkman_: Dave said to ask you about lulu. :P Mar 17 13:44:58 Well, I've gotta run. Later, all. Mar 17 13:50:18 mm i want to opkg force-reinstall all the bluez4 stuff, but i always get a segmentation fault :( Mar 17 13:50:45 Zorkman_: that's what we get for using a crappy package manager :( Mar 17 13:50:57 yeah i really hate opkg :( Mar 17 13:51:13 I wish the dialer and stuff used by shr was in the debian repo Mar 17 13:51:51 zhone is not very good, it seems toplay a sound to tell me I have a new text message, but when I look, none are there... Mar 17 13:52:08 XD Mar 17 13:52:17 SeligArkin: zhone was just meant to be a demo app Mar 17 13:52:21 indeed Mar 17 13:52:36 SeligArkin: agree Mar 17 13:52:49 paroli should solve those problems, but i don't really trust what paroli is doing... (reinventing the wheel...) Mar 17 13:53:26 i haven't really understood what paroli is all about... another framework? Mar 17 13:54:15 * dent also wonders Mar 17 13:58:22 henk: try to read the description at the official site. Mar 17 13:58:56 PaulFert`: i did... Mar 17 14:00:15 PaulFert`: at first i thought, it was a 'phone gui' like zhone but done properly. the description sounds more like it is a framework to develop applications. but i'm not sure... Mar 17 14:00:16 henk: if i understand it correctly, the idea is to closer integrate apps in the same python process (to speed up the things a bit). Mar 17 14:00:56 wow great... what we needed all the time. i hope someone will soon do that for ruby, php and perl too! Mar 17 14:01:35 but why is it fullscreen only? reinventing things like battery app? things that are already in iillume? Mar 17 14:02:59 henk: with brainfuck and whitespace coming next year? :) Mar 17 14:03:58 Zorkman_: you read my "interview" with Mirko, didn't you? I think there's no more sense in talking about that. OM-the-company is crap, now almost everybody knows that, no point in repeating it all the time. Mar 17 14:04:00 they are still missing! how about a framework for c applications? ah wait, no need to optimize... good python seems to have become the primary language for such high-end devices as the openmoko. really makes sense to me... Mar 17 14:04:23 PaulFert`: you're right Mar 17 14:05:28 henk: framework can be used from any application, because of D-bus interface. Moreover someday a vala reimplementation will probably arrive that will hopefully fix performance problems. Mar 17 14:11:20 PaulFert`: you are talking about the fso framework right? i'm talking about paroli... Mar 17 14:12:03 henk: i see, paroli is another topic; time will tell if it's a good idea after all. Mar 17 14:15:53 PaulFert`: probably... Mar 17 14:18:58 PaulFert`: you think it would be safe to opkg remove -recursive bluez4 Mar 17 14:19:02 and then reinstall it? Mar 17 14:20:12 Zorkman_: can't say anything about opkg Mar 17 14:20:15 Zorkman_: sorry Mar 17 14:22:04 Zorkman_: do you want to revert to bluez3? Why? It's unsupported by the main authors anyway... Mar 17 14:24:11 PaulFert`: no i want to reinstall all my bluez4 stuff Mar 17 14:42:51 PaulFert`: you have some time to look at my bluetooth problem? Mar 17 14:49:56 if anybody else has some experience with bluez4; could you take a look at this?: http://pastebin.com/db12704d Mar 17 16:47:52 Zorkman: looks like you don't have bluetoothd running? Mar 17 16:50:22 PaulFert`: i enabled it in shr-settings Mar 17 16:51:14 but in /etc/init.d/ i don't have a bluetoothd, is this normal?. Mar 17 16:51:20 Zorkman_: hm, it doesn't say anything to me. Just check if bluetoothd running or not. Mar 17 16:51:50 Zorkman_: i don't know how it's packaged in OE, so can't say for sure. Check the package file list. Mar 17 16:52:51 ahoi Mar 17 16:54:28 PaulFert`: it isn't running (or i can't find it anyway) Mar 17 16:55:30 Zorkman_: then run it. I guess it should be run on startup anyway, and FSO only enables/disables power of BT chip. Mar 17 16:56:27 how do i run it? PaulFert`? Mar 17 16:58:20 Zorkman_: sounds like you want to install the bluez package Mar 17 16:58:34 Elleo: i think I already have it Mar 17 16:58:57 Elleo: http://pastebin.com/db12704d Mar 17 16:59:24 Zorkman_: you're supposed to view file list of bluez4 package Mar 17 16:59:37 Zorkman_: from that you'll know the name of init.d script. Mar 17 16:59:48 it's /etc/init.d/bluetooth Mar 17 16:59:52 not /etc/init.d/bluetoothd Mar 17 17:17:31 Elleo: -sh: /etc/init.d/bluetooth: not found Mar 17 17:19:28 on FSO testing, does the screen start strobing and refreshing in and very bad way like a tv losing vertical sync after a while for anyone else? Mar 17 17:24:24 Zorkman_: can't you find the script? Mar 17 17:27:03 yes Mar 17 17:27:09 it seems there was something wrong with my bluez4 Mar 17 17:27:14 the script was not there Mar 17 17:27:21 i tried opkg install bluez4 -force-reinstall Mar 17 17:27:30 but opkg always just "terminated" Mar 17 17:27:42 i opkg removed with -force-depends bluez4 Mar 17 17:27:47 and then reinstalled it Mar 17 17:27:50 now it works again Mar 17 17:27:54 (although choppy :)) Mar 17 17:27:55 hmmm Mar 17 17:30:27 damn Mar 17 17:31:00 what is is SeligArkin? Mar 17 17:31:24 I was looking up the status of getting the shr tools into debian Mar 17 17:31:43 "ASAP" as of nov 25, 2008 Mar 17 18:01:10 I am going to do something rather stupid possibly Mar 17 18:02:25 * SeligArkin chroots into /mnt/flash and trys running openmoko-dialer Mar 17 18:02:47 hmmm Mar 17 18:05:35 * SeligArkin is determined Mar 17 18:07:39 I've flashed the last shr-unstable image and I get a bunch of icons from E, but the apps are not installed (xmms, audacity, xine, etc) Mar 17 18:07:42 Zorkman: so, have you paired you headset? Mar 17 18:07:54 how can I disable them? there aren't any desktop file on /usr/share/applications Mar 17 18:12:12 PaulFertser: yes Mar 17 18:12:19 it works onces again Mar 17 18:12:25 but for some reason it's very choppy Mar 17 18:12:32 Zorkman_: A2DP? Mar 17 18:12:57 yes Mar 17 18:13:26 Zorkman_: can it be that some resampling and heavy is going on which is simply slow on fpu-less SoC? Mar 17 18:13:43 s/heavy/heavy coding/ Mar 17 18:13:43 PaulFertser meant: Zorkman_: can it be that some resampling and heavy coding is going on which is simply slow on fpu-less SoC? Mar 17 18:14:09 I can't believe that the SoC can't resample that fast Mar 17 18:14:27 Even with a pessimised FPU library Mar 17 18:15:35 Of course, people will always come up with highly optimised pessimisers. Mar 17 18:15:49 SpeedEvil: using alsa plug plugin to upsample from 8000 to 48000 is known to not work smoothly, i think. Mar 17 18:15:52 there was also some talk on the ml of headsets being able to decode mp3s themselves Mar 17 18:15:58 to relieve the cpu of this task... Mar 17 18:16:47 Zorkman_: yes, but no infrustructure to support that properly iirc. Mar 17 18:17:03 Zorkman_: can you check your top output while using a2dp? Mar 17 18:17:50 PaulFertser: http://pastebin.com/d52998833 Mar 17 18:19:19 if you need more info, i'll gladly provide! Mar 17 18:19:22 Zorkman_: looks like 9% idle is not that much... Mar 17 18:19:44 Zorkman_: unfortunately, i don't know the way to radically improve a2dp performance. Mar 17 18:21:16 suppose there is no betterbluetooth profice to use than a2dp? Mar 17 18:21:38 a2dp is the profile that's 'stream uncompressed samples' Mar 17 18:21:42 at high rate Mar 17 18:22:12 compressed samples - mp3 or other formats - would be a different profile I think, or a suboption of the protocol Mar 17 18:23:01 but with bluez 3.33 i managed to get fluent playback Mar 17 18:23:10 i could even scroll the FR and listen to music Mar 17 18:25:11 anybody else got fluent bt playback? Mar 17 18:28:27 PaulFertser, maybe it's just due to my mplayer, because even playing it through the speakers with top running is choppy.... Mar 17 18:28:51 Zorkman_: that makes sense! Mar 17 18:30:24 mplayer wavs Mar 17 18:30:25 maybe Mar 17 18:31:01 something must be done to make playing music files (mp3/ogg) much less cpu hungry Mar 17 18:31:13 someone was working on a integer implementation if i recall correctly Mar 17 18:31:29 Zorkman_: there is. Use mad to play mp3 Mar 17 18:32:10 i'll look if that is available on shr Mar 17 18:32:30 I've got an mplayer that uses 18% or so on gta01 Mar 17 18:32:34 I forget where I got it Mar 17 18:32:41 wow Mar 17 18:33:13 Zorkman_: doesn't your mplayer support mad? Mar 17 18:33:33 PaulFertser: i'm really a gigantic noob (even to linux) Mar 17 18:33:33 Zorkman_: mplayer -ac mad test.mp3 Mar 17 18:33:37 i already have the mad plugin Mar 17 18:33:52 Zorkman_: tremor helps a lot with ogg vorbis Mar 17 18:34:24 Zorkman_: you already use it for playback? Mar 17 18:34:32 yeah mad is supported Mar 17 18:35:01 http://www.mauve.plus.com/mplayerarm.gz Mar 17 18:35:01 in a couple of minutes - uploading Mar 17 18:35:39 SpeedEvil: are there limitations vs the normal one SpeedEvil? Mar 17 18:36:17 Zorkman: it's really old Mar 17 18:38:21 1309 root 20 0 7220 1496 892 S 12.1 1.2 0:10.89 mplayer Mar 17 18:39:02 SpeedEvil: root@om-gta02 ~ $ /home/root/mplayerarm -ac mad /media/card/mp3/* Mar 17 18:39:02 Segmentation fault Mar 17 18:39:42 oh Mar 17 18:39:43 that Mar 17 18:39:51 sorry. Mar 17 18:39:55 It's really old, as I said. Mar 17 18:40:03 I forgot that the binary format had changed Mar 17 18:40:09 np Mar 17 18:40:42 There is a program somewhere to run old format stuff - used for the GPS binary on GTA01 Mar 17 18:41:24 I don't think that works on FR - IIRC the gta02 kernel has OABI support turned off Mar 17 18:42:07 np, thanks anyway Mar 17 18:42:37 MPlayer dev-CVS--3.4.3 (C) 2000-2005 MPlayer Team Mar 17 18:42:45 ooold mplayer is ooold. Mar 17 18:43:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NxCM8ryF8 Mar 17 18:43:52 oops Mar 17 19:02:24 hmm Mar 17 19:03:53 hey all Mar 17 19:04:09 well hullo badcloud' Mar 17 19:04:12 hi dr nick riviera Mar 17 19:04:48 yhallothair Mar 17 19:05:16 anyone get usb host mode working under shr? Mar 17 19:05:38 can't seem to access a usb drive after using the gui Mar 17 19:06:24 or get sound from scummvm for that matter Mar 17 19:06:38 mplayer plays the scummvm files just fine Mar 17 19:09:27 well, at least I can get calls Mar 17 19:18:15 ^_^ Mar 17 19:18:38 apt, make himself some coffee Mar 17 19:18:39 * apt brews a nice hot cup of coffee for himself some Mar 17 19:18:48 apt, make himself coffee Mar 17 19:18:49 * apt brews a nice hot cup of coffee for himself Mar 17 19:18:55 yay, I'm cool Mar 17 19:24:58 mmontour: ping ? Mar 17 19:25:34 I made a new u-boot for testing purpose : http://www.starox.org/pub/openmoko/u-boot/u-boot.slow_clock Mar 17 19:25:49 pong Mar 17 19:28:17 starox_: I'll try it tonight if I have time Mar 17 19:28:50 mmontour: thanks ! I just slowed the clock, I think I found the issue. Mar 17 19:42:50 hrm. hrm. Mar 17 19:43:08 i think i need to look a little into this LEDclock program Mar 17 19:43:23 just wrote something to beep once a second Mar 17 19:43:47 now i just need something to blink the AUX LED also Mar 17 19:44:06 portable movie bomb emulator :) Mar 17 19:59:39 Wonka lol :) Mar 17 20:00:29 add a fancy coundown screen too :) Mar 17 20:01:28 "I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation". Mar 17 20:03:05 :) Mar 17 20:05:03 Wonka: when it 'dedonates' make it brick the phone. Mar 17 20:05:15 no wait, that would be a bit too evil Mar 17 20:22:03 is there a function to block incoming calls from numbers for neo freerunner? Mar 17 20:22:24 jesperj: that's entirely software issue Mar 17 20:22:43 jesperj: which program are you using to play ringtone? Mar 17 20:23:27 lindi-: I dont own a freerunner yet. I need to get a phone that can block incoming calls from numbers, preferably a list with a large limit, like hundreds of numbers Mar 17 20:23:38 so I can enter all known crapcompany numbers here where i live Mar 17 20:23:44 jesperj: is there a fucntion to receive incloming calls for noe freerunner? (-; Mar 17 20:24:06 i just want to know if that function exists, if it is possible to code it for freerunner? Mar 17 20:24:23 if so I'll get one nearly mostly for that purpose Mar 17 20:24:26 jesperj: worst comes to worst, you could mod the phone app to auto silent it Mar 17 20:24:36 jesperj: well well. i wrote my own dialer program in python in a few days (it's less than 300 lines). it does not play ringtone when called from a test number Mar 17 20:24:39 SeligArkin: worst comes to worst? Mar 17 20:24:53 I am sure it won't come to that Mar 17 20:25:13 SeligArkin: what do you mean with "worst comes to worst"? Mar 17 20:25:27 joejoe: I hope so :D Mar 17 20:25:41 I mean thats what you would have to do in the most extream case Mar 17 20:25:55 lindi-: good. it just doesnt react at all when you call from a special number with your testapp? Mar 17 20:26:02 a total ignore is what I need Mar 17 20:26:02 i tried this functionality 3 months ago and since then i had no time for experiments Mar 17 20:26:04 from some numbers Mar 17 20:26:07 no reaction at all Mar 17 20:26:23 jesperj: yes Mar 17 20:26:25 SeligArkin: I see. yes. Mar 17 20:26:28 lindi-: perfect. Mar 17 20:26:42 jesperj: nagios calls my phone every two hours and my phone responds by sending a status report over gprs Mar 17 20:26:52 I need to get this kindof function before I lose control and deaththreat some telemarketer Mar 17 20:26:54 jesperj: if my phone does not respond I get a popup on my desktop and email Mar 17 20:26:55 seriously Mar 17 20:27:26 jesperj: (nagios is a service monitoring system, http://www.nagios.org/ ) Mar 17 20:27:53 jesperj: how much experience do you have on software development? Mar 17 20:28:23 lindi-: perfect. you dont get any audio signal, no vibration, no call notification on the phone at all? and also does this ignored incoming phonecall block the phones functionality to phone out or recieve other calls while it happens? Mar 17 20:28:49 jesperj: display backlight is lit for a few seconds currently Mar 17 20:28:52 lindi-: enough to be able to hack together what I need. Mar 17 20:28:57 jesperj: i could fix that but i consider it a feature Mar 17 20:29:13 lindi-: do you mean it uses a data connection? (Sorry, not familar with the terms in the phone industy) Mar 17 20:29:14 jesperj: http://iki.fi/lindi/darcs/kapula/ is my dialer Mar 17 20:29:24 no expert but Ive done stuff in tcl, php, perl Mar 17 20:29:27 SeligArkin: it uses gprs Mar 17 20:29:30 I like tcl Mar 17 20:29:43 gprs = ??? Mar 17 20:29:50 SeligArkin: general packet radio service Mar 17 20:29:53 thanks lindi- Mar 17 20:30:00 jesperj: i don't know if incoming calls can block outgoing calls Mar 17 20:30:22 jesperj: it's bit messy since i have lots of command line options Mar 17 20:30:32 * jesperj nods Mar 17 20:31:20 the most important thing is that when blocked call rings I 1) get no audio signal 2) no vibration 3) no message of missed or incoming call on screen = total ignore / I wont even know I had a call Mar 17 20:31:26 as long as this is doable, Mar 17 20:31:29 i am happy Mar 17 20:31:42 i can do it myself when i get the phone as long as I know it can be done with freerunner Mar 17 20:36:09 oh - it's doable Mar 17 20:36:23 great Mar 17 20:36:28 too bad i cant afford the phone heh Mar 17 20:36:30 the harder part is making it do stuff when you get a call you want :) Mar 17 20:36:41 nah Mar 17 20:36:49 ill just add expections for the calls in my list Mar 17 20:36:52 unfortunately, yes. Mar 17 20:37:05 only yes if the number is not in my exception list Mar 17 20:37:07 It's not really ready as an everyday phone yet Mar 17 20:37:22 and 'can be done' is 'you have the source Mar 17 20:37:37 you can call in and out I hope? Mar 17 20:37:40 :D Mar 17 20:37:57 Generally yes, though that can sometimes break on new images. Mar 17 20:38:10 wow Mar 17 20:38:11 or for some users Mar 17 20:38:31 i thought it was more developed than that. that is very basic usability Mar 17 20:38:46 :/ Mar 17 20:38:48 For some people, it works fine. Mar 17 20:38:55 For others, they can't get it to work. Mar 17 20:39:03 or give up Mar 17 20:39:14 sweet, if i fly to FSOSHRUDCON'09 will i get my buzz fixed for free? Mar 17 20:39:58 * jesperj nods Mar 17 20:40:17 sweet! Mar 17 20:43:26 that wasnt for you but I Ill cross my fingers for you :D Mar 17 20:45:36 lindi-: interesting Mar 17 20:45:46 (checking out your dialer) Mar 17 20:47:23 is that a euphemism? Mar 17 20:47:29 :) Mar 17 20:57:00 tig|: only to you Mar 17 21:00:06 jesperj: note that your phone will still wake up from suspend when spammer calls Mar 17 21:03:57 But if the software is done right, it should suspend again a few seconds later once it has rejected the call Mar 17 21:07:20 lindi-: yeah but nothing else than that Mar 17 21:08:04 lindi-: do you mind if I use your code as a reference in making a dialer more to my liking? Mar 17 21:12:46 SeligArkin: oh, i forgot to add copyright info Mar 17 21:15:09 * SeligArkin should learn to understand legalese to understand licences some day Mar 17 21:18:25 SeligArkin: refresh and you'll see that i granted you permission to share and change it freely Mar 17 21:19:31 lindi-: even with stuff I like to ask the author to be sure. :P Mar 17 21:19:40 how long is the batterytime? Mar 17 21:19:46 on freerunner Mar 17 21:20:12 SeligArkin: sure Mar 17 21:20:55 jesperj: at this point,I would not sugest falling asleep with it unpluged,much like a laptop Mar 17 21:21:13 jesperj: when it is running around 6 hours, in suspend its day or two Mar 17 21:23:16 :-/ Mar 17 21:23:50 hmm does debian put the phone in suspend by default after beingidle Mar 17 21:24:06 6 hours isnt much... Mar 17 21:27:08 jesperj: it's quite a lot for pda in active use actually Mar 17 21:27:20 jesperj: you can run firefox for 6 hours with the battery, think about that :) Mar 17 21:27:27 jesperj: can your laptop do it? Mar 17 21:28:15 so Mar 17 21:28:16 yeah Mar 17 21:28:16 ok. so calling like 10-20 times a day, reading and sending like 10 sms per day, checking calender a couple of times etc, it will probably last 1.5 days? Mar 17 21:28:45 jesperj: sure, depending on your sleep settings and if it suspends propperly each time Mar 17 21:28:51 lindi-: my laptop which is like 10 years old's battery is defunct since many years lol Mar 17 21:28:55 how long are your calls? Mar 17 21:29:00 its now a "portable workstation" or something Mar 17 21:29:05 ran from AC only Mar 17 21:29:07 :D Mar 17 21:29:33 like 5-15 min Mar 17 21:29:47 that might die a little quicker Mar 17 21:29:58 5 minutes is a full conversation tho Mar 17 21:30:03 yeah Mar 17 21:30:16 20 x 0.25h, hmm Mar 17 21:30:28 15-minute calls, the phone might last you a full day Mar 17 21:31:00 mostly shorter Mar 17 21:31:03 but sometimes that long Mar 17 21:31:04 jesperj: i bought external usb battery from dealextreme.com. it was only $14 with shipping to finland Mar 17 21:31:32 * jesperj nods Mar 17 21:31:36 if your average call is shorter than 3 minutes, the phone should last you long enough to get it charged Mar 17 21:32:25 aka, 1.5 days Mar 17 21:32:47 rooly: unless a spammer calls him every 5 minutes ;) Mar 17 21:32:50 how often are you out and about, jesperj? Mar 17 21:32:53 haha Mar 17 21:33:01 You could get a phone charger likly Mar 17 21:33:25 erm car charger Mar 17 21:33:38 yeah I just have to remember to charge it regularly Mar 17 21:33:52 SeligArkin: i bought car charger from dealextreme.com too :) Mar 17 21:34:06 lindi-: you have all extras dont you :) Mar 17 21:34:25 jesperj: extra battery and car charger are quite essential Mar 17 21:34:37 jesperj: if you use it as a gps device Mar 17 21:34:47 maybe an external keyboard would be good also Mar 17 21:34:57 a foldable blutetooth keyboard or something Mar 17 21:35:11 i have a rubber keyboard but it's awful to use Mar 17 21:35:40 oh well, thanks for the info guys Mar 17 21:35:43 I got to go walk the dog Mar 17 21:35:51 have fun Mar 17 21:35:52 give me sum assssss Mar 17 21:35:52 thanks for the chat, have a good day/night Mar 17 21:36:19 rooly: mkay? Mar 17 21:36:21 heh Mar 17 21:36:41 (_(_) (_|_) (_)_) Mar 17 21:39:07 well at least this place is no stranger than usual... Mar 17 21:40:04 * SeligArkin stares at jesperj and robster Mar 17 21:40:06 hmm, i need to design a watchdog that will restart ogsmd if it gets to a state where it does not respond Mar 17 21:40:57 I need to get one to restart framewokd Mar 17 21:40:59 it keeps killing Mar 17 21:43:34 SeligArkin: ogsmd is part of frameworkd Mar 17 21:43:38 SeligArkin: thus we have same goal :) Mar 17 21:43:45 heh Mar 17 21:44:05 SeligArkin: what do about client applications that were talking to frameworkd? Mar 17 21:44:18 SeligArkin: is there some way to make this transparent to them? (afaik no) Mar 17 21:44:53 lindi-: It's happen only between my messing with the window manager and all to get a setup I want Mar 17 21:45:18 SeligArkin: what window manager to do with frameworkd? Mar 17 21:45:26 +has Mar 17 21:45:28 lindi-: no idea Mar 17 21:45:42 other than maybe zhone leaving it in a insane state Mar 17 21:46:11 and it going ZOMGWTFBBQWHEREUGO!? Mar 17 21:51:12 SeligArkin: yeah but how is the watchdog supposed to figure out what processes were talking to frameworkd when it stopped working? Mar 17 21:52:22 lindi-: i have no idea Mar 17 22:07:00 a watchdog is a last resort solution which usually has to restart a whole new clean system Mar 17 22:07:55 otherwise you'd assume you knew so much about the error it's supposed to catch, it would be better to fix the error than to use watchdog Mar 17 22:07:58 DocScrutinizer: yeah wrong term Mar 17 22:08:10 DocScrutinizer: yes i am reporting bugs all the time Mar 17 22:08:21 DocScrutinizer: but since i want to receive calls i need this too :) Mar 17 22:08:42 DocScrutinizer: it can also help in bug reporting: it can save the latest straces and logs to a separate directory when it detects that things are not working Mar 17 22:09:04 DocScrutinizer: now it might take me hours to figure out that ogsmd has stopped working and i need to digg old logs to figure it out Mar 17 22:09:07 that's quite sensible Mar 17 22:09:54 but i don't know how to handle dbus clients in this case Mar 17 22:10:04 they would all need to be restarted too Mar 17 22:10:17 sure they need to Mar 17 22:10:36 DocScrutinizer: but how can the watchdog know what programs were using frameworkd when it stopped working? Mar 17 22:11:01 it can't, you need to reboot Mar 17 22:12:02 you simply can't program a watchdog that's smarter than the system being watched Mar 17 22:12:21 DocScrutinizer: i'd like to avoid reboot if at all possible Mar 17 22:12:45 DocScrutinizer: maybe i'll only make watchdog handle the most critical answer program Mar 17 22:12:53 so fix the error that causes a situation where you needed to Mar 17 22:12:54 which i use to answer calls Mar 17 22:13:15 DocScrutinizer: i don't have source to calypso :) Mar 17 22:13:23 DocScrutinizer: fixing things is quite difficult Mar 17 22:13:30 ahh a calypso watchdog Mar 17 22:13:57 yup you had to powercycle calypso then Mar 17 22:14:01 DocScrutinizer: well both Mar 17 22:14:15 DocScrutinizer: sometimes calypso confuses ogsmd Mar 17 22:14:26 DocScrutinizer: and restarting both is needed Mar 17 22:14:50 fix ogsmd Mar 17 22:15:09 so it basically is it's own watchdog Mar 17 22:16:03 sorrry...that was somebody typing for me...never forget to lock your laptops Mar 17 22:18:36 DocScrutinizer: easier said than done :) Mar 17 22:19:10 DocScrutinizer: external watchdog is always more reliable anyway Mar 17 22:21:12 but an external watchdog never is smart, as it isn't a parallel system with same "AI" as ogsmd. A watchdog can't decide if it's ogsmd or some kernel-oops that caused him trigger. so a watchdog always has to reboot the whole system Mar 17 22:21:28 DocScrutinizer: sure Mar 17 22:21:39 DocScrutinizer: no no, watchdog can first only restart ogsmd Mar 17 22:21:49 DocScrutinizer: and if that does not fix the problem then it can reboot Mar 17 22:22:06 DocScrutinizer: or it can alert the user Mar 17 22:22:24 that's transfering intelligence to watchdog that should be inside ogsmd Mar 17 22:22:58 DocScrutinizer: but what i the bug is in python-dbus bindings+ Mar 17 22:23:39 DocScrutinizer: i don't think ogsmd can reliably detect that it itself is not responding :) Mar 17 22:23:40 or in dbus itself... exactly. you got the point Mar 17 22:25:11 either you know the error cause so fix it inside app where it happens. if you cant figure out you need a watchdog *restarting whole system* Mar 17 22:26:48 DocScrutinizer: my hypothesis is that the bug is in calypso, gsm0710muxd or ogsmd (or any of the libraries it uses). i don't see why i'd restart whole system Mar 17 22:27:26 * rooly is wondering whats being talked about Mar 17 22:27:40 DocScrutinizer: i have hardware watchdog to catch kernel bugs and ringbuffer in RAM to catch those panic messages. i think it's a separate bug hunting department Mar 17 22:28:08 if your hypothesis is true you can create a timer object inside ogsmd checking if the call returns Mar 17 22:28:23 DocScrutinizer: call where? Mar 17 22:29:03 call to lib, dunno where you specifically expect to see things to go wrong Mar 17 22:29:16 DocScrutinizer: you mean alarm()? Mar 17 22:29:26 talk to calypso wating an answer, whatever Mar 17 22:29:37 yup, e.g. Mar 17 22:29:45 DocScrutinizer: i said "the bug" but in fact there are a number of odd open bugs Mar 17 22:30:26 DocScrutinizer: but then i'd need to code ogsmd to constantly poll calypso for info, wouldn't that kind of policy belong to separate watchdog? Mar 17 22:30:41 so write a wrapper for ogsmd, that's controlling ogsmd as a child process Mar 17 22:30:49 DocScrutinizer: the watchdog would then test the whole dbus-ogsmd-gsm0710muxd-serial-calypso path Mar 17 22:31:28 DocScrutinizer: something like that i had in mind yes Mar 17 22:32:05 hmm, probably I just have another definition of watchdog ;-) Mar 17 22:32:48 possible :) Mar 17 22:32:55 s/another/a different/ Mar 17 22:32:55 DocScrutinizer meant: hmm, probably I just have a different definition of watchdog ;-) Mar 17 22:34:35 lindi-: see firefox wrapper to restore previous session Mar 17 22:35:57 for an example of what I don't call a watchdog, but rather a part of the app (my def of watchdog it's never is a part of the app) Mar 17 22:36:18 :-) Mar 17 22:36:44 DocScrutinizer: but wasn't i all the time arguing that it shouldn't be part of ogsmd but a separate process? ;) Mar 17 22:37:28 separate process is<ät exactly what a wrapper does to the app childprocess Mar 17 22:38:13 nevermind, we're talking about same thing with different words Mar 17 22:40:06 DocScrutinizer: heh Mar 17 22:40:16 lindi-: for dbus I don't know if there's an issue at all (apart from stalled dialogs maybe that timeout eventually) Mar 17 22:40:40 as I get it dbus bindings a by name Mar 17 22:40:40 DocScrutinizer: but my dbus client is responsible for playing the ringtone Mar 17 22:40:54 DocScrutinizer: it needs to "not stall" :) Mar 17 22:43:39 whoa, i did not realize that with Xorg I get transparent windows ;) Mar 17 22:43:52 is there any mp3 player for the openmoko which is more performant than mplayer? or are there any tweak you must know to let mplayer play in the background while using another application? Mar 17 22:43:52 ogsmd sends a dbus msg "start to ring!". either client does ringtone playback, or the msg gets lost by system error somewhere. I don't see how to cure that, except maybe by watching for a "I'm ringing" reply Mar 17 22:45:08 nezza-_-: hmm, maybe renice it? Mar 17 22:45:46 nezza-_-: use mad library Mar 17 22:46:06 anyone with shr-testing? Mar 17 22:46:11 i get no sound when the alarm goes off Mar 17 22:46:12 nezza-_-: like mplayer -ac mad my.mp3 Mar 17 22:46:25 nezza-_-: or use mpg321/madplay Mar 17 22:46:33 thought there was this trick with making a symlink but can't find it again (but i think i already did that) Mar 17 22:47:37 PaulFertser: Selected audio codec: [mad] afm: libmad (libMAD MPEG layer 1-2-3) <- seems like i'm already using mad ;-) Mar 17 22:47:57 is mp3 back inside OM yet? Mar 17 22:48:02 nezza-_-: madplay and mpg321 uses like 20% of CPU Mar 17 22:48:25 rooly: never will Mar 17 22:48:27 rooly: do you know anybody who's using "official" OM distro? Mar 17 22:48:44 erm...does qtopia on top count? Mar 17 22:48:47 rooly: except the testing team Mar 17 22:48:49 PaulFertser: mplayer is using around 30% Mar 17 22:49:02 om linux + qtopia is what i use Mar 17 22:49:04 same here, and i'm also using mad Mar 17 22:49:05 4.4.1 Mar 17 22:49:10 nezza-_-: hm, that's probably ok. Renice as Doc suggests. Mar 17 22:49:34 i don't really no anybody else who even knows what a freerunner is Mar 17 22:49:41 *know Mar 17 22:49:53 rooly: well, i see no point in using qtopia. It seems to be no fun in hacking on it. Mar 17 22:49:57 PaulFertser: i reniced to 20.. it changes a litte bit but it's still lagging very bad when i touch the screen Mar 17 22:50:09 nezza-_-: reniced to "20"? Mar 17 22:50:29 Damn! Mar 17 22:50:30 got me Mar 17 22:50:39 PaulFertser: atm, i have don't have the time to hack around on my fr, so i'm using qtopia to use it as a mostly reliable phone Mar 17 22:50:45 * DocScrutinizer off for a beer to honor StPatric's day (whatever that is) Mar 17 22:51:18 PaulFertser: okay, works now -.- sorry, had a bad day ;-) Mar 17 22:51:21 have fun, DocScrutinizer Mar 17 22:51:41 rooly: i don't see why use FR if not to hack on it. I'd better use the cheapest nokia instead. Mar 17 22:53:17 nezza-_-, I use mokoko as music player on SHR-unstable :) Mar 17 22:53:30 nezza-_-, it's on the shr repos Mar 17 22:53:36 PaulFertser: i sorta like the looks i get for having it Mar 17 22:53:48 opkg install mokoko Mar 17 22:54:24 rooly: do you have the buzz fixed? Mar 17 22:54:59 Sharwin_F: well i'm developing a small application which controls mplayer,but i will have a look at it, thank you. Mar 17 22:55:04 4.4.x doesn't have the buzzing problem Mar 17 22:55:07 then create the mokoko.conf file as told on the wiki (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Mokoko) Mar 17 22:55:10 at least, on my side Mar 17 22:55:13 mickeyl: You heard something from C7? Mar 17 22:55:25 nothing Mar 17 22:55:48 and nobody complains about buzzing on their side, so i don't suppose its an issue Mar 17 22:56:17 oh my, dead neo Mar 17 22:56:29 I never understood the buzzproblem? What kind of buzz am I suppose to hear? Mar 17 22:56:37 is it just in calls? Mar 17 22:56:47 the receiver or caller? Mar 17 22:56:59 fredrin: the buzz with my Fr was on the other side Mar 17 22:57:16 fredrin: *you* never'll hear it Mar 17 22:57:26 far end does Mar 17 22:57:57 hmm, i'm not so sure, doc Mar 17 22:58:07 no matter if you called or receive a call Mar 17 22:58:18 see, cause using 2008.8 always buzzed in my ear Mar 17 22:58:23 rooly: I am Mar 17 22:58:30 so did 2007.x Mar 17 22:58:45 ah, then it's not a problem, I can just blame it my friends crappy phones Mar 17 22:58:46 lol Mar 17 22:58:49 crappy statefiles Mar 17 22:58:51 2008.x after asu didn't buzz on my side Mar 17 22:59:50 rooly: see lengthy tread about buzz on HW-ML Mar 17 23:00:11 as well as wiki Mar 17 23:00:49 rooly: DocScrutinizer for sure knows more than anybody about the buzz problem. Mar 17 23:00:55 and believe me, I looked into buzz issue quite a couple of times Mar 17 23:00:58 ic Mar 17 23:01:09 A disabled guy for which i'm developing an openmoko application just asked me if he could also use the openmoko as his mobilephone.. He's no plan from computers, so I'm not sure what I should answer... What would you suggest? Mar 17 23:01:14 rooly: if the other party didn't complain, that means you're lucky that's all. Mar 17 23:01:25 awesome then Mar 17 23:01:30 * rooly is lucky Mar 17 23:01:31 w00t Mar 17 23:03:24 nezza-_-: it depends, more data is needed to answer if freerunner will suit. Mar 17 23:03:55 the FR suits me, it gives me an excuse to ignore calls Mar 17 23:05:46 PaulFertser: i think he wants to use it as his everyday mobile phone.. I think I will answer no.. cause I don't want to be spammed with questions about linux and buzz and this and that.. Mar 17 23:06:23 nezza-_-: i won't recommend to use a freerunner without buzz fix as a primary phone to anybody. Mar 17 23:08:42 PaulFertser: yes, i could fix it for him. but he has really NO plans from computers... so i think i will just tell him how to turn it on and play around a little bit in illumine.. may he wants more and than i will guide him to #openmoko :-) Mar 17 23:10:11 nezza-_-: i'd refrain from expressing an opinion on that, i'd better go to sleep in the hope tomorrow will be better than today. See you all. Mar 17 23:11:01 ²night PaulFertser; thanks for your help Mar 17 23:11:07 Zorkman_: hth Mar 17 23:11:18 PaulFertser: night Mar 17 23:14:16 nezza-_-just out of ciriousity, in what way is he disabled? Mar 17 23:58:49 hmm, why does mofi insist my AP is WPA when it's only configured for WEP Mar 18 00:10:33 been searching the wiki with no joy. can someone point me to the latest images for the gta01? Mar 18 00:10:36 thanks Mar 18 00:11:03 kernel & rootfs Mar 18 00:11:28 DukeOfURL: wich distro you want? Mar 18 00:11:33 that depends on the distribution you want. SHR was suggested to me Mar 18 00:12:21 dunno. the battery in my moto flip phone died and I need to resurrect this neo1973 from the dead. all i need is basic gsm capability. Mar 18 00:12:48 what runs on the gta01? Mar 18 00:12:54 android? Mar 18 00:12:56 * Blu3 has the freerunner Mar 18 00:13:04 lucky you Mar 18 00:13:18 what is shr? Mar 18 00:13:30 stable hybrid release Mar 18 00:13:41 ok, sounds good. Mar 18 00:13:42 a community distribution based on the framework (FSO) Mar 18 00:13:48 http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-testing/images/om-gta01/ (haven't tried it myself) Mar 18 00:13:56 look it up at openmoko.org or at shr-project.org Mar 18 00:13:59 thanks, i'll try it. Mar 18 00:14:16 is testlab the kernel? Mar 18 00:14:33 kernel is uImage.bin Mar 18 00:14:36 ok, I see uImage Mar 18 00:16:13 DukeOfURL: it's also recommended to update your GSM firmware to "moko11". See "GSM/Flashing" wiki page Mar 18 00:27:35 ok then Mar 18 00:27:52 ssid hiding may be shit security Mar 18 00:28:10 it is shitty security Mar 18 00:28:27 but wheneverI re-enable the brodcast, something kills my wireless Mar 18 00:28:32 it's basically sufficient for showing malicious intent if you catch somebody using it Mar 18 00:28:58 otherwise useless Mar 18 00:29:09 I should setup proper security Mar 18 00:29:29 * mjr has an open wlan ap himself behind a separate natted network Mar 18 00:29:53 not a very busy spot here either though so no real trouble being generous to the occasional visitor Mar 18 00:31:21 SeligArkin: what a piece of shit do you have for WLAN-AP? Mar 18 00:31:38 DocScrutinizer: linksys WRT54G router Mar 18 00:31:55 I suspect it is a neighbor with a misconfigured gadget Mar 18 00:32:34 SeligArkin: try change channel Mar 18 00:33:25 * SeligArkin does so Mar 18 00:33:58 SeligArkin: sometimes it even helps to give a channel argument to client (FR here) to avoid associating to some rogue AP on another channel Mar 18 00:34:26 SeligArkin: please don't ask how to do this with WPA-supplicant ;-) Mar 18 00:34:42 DocScrutinizer: the problem is the router's wireless *dies* not the FR's Mar 18 00:34:52 none of the devices in the house detect the AP anymore Mar 18 00:34:56 yeah, piece of shit Mar 18 00:35:11 yeah... Mar 18 00:35:20 update WRT firmware? Mar 18 00:35:32 I might soon Mar 18 00:41:51 suprise, another cop was shot Mar 18 00:42:10 thats getting to be... unnews around here Mar 18 00:42:33 where's here? Mar 18 00:42:39 near philly Mar 18 00:43:04 uh, US-people shooting each other really no news Mar 18 00:43:13 indeed Mar 18 00:43:31 U r freaking mad with rifles Mar 18 00:43:39 Unless it was an openmoko involved shooting Mar 18 00:43:52 few rifles are actually used to kill people. Mar 18 00:44:07 or rathere - few of the total gun deaths involve rifles Mar 18 00:44:08 see: UK-bobbies had no weapon until 70s Mar 18 00:44:28 DocScrutinizer: 95% (?) of them are still 'unarmed' - they have a club Mar 18 00:44:28 I misread that Mar 18 00:44:54 who would use a building to attack someone? Mar 18 00:45:02 :P Mar 18 00:45:58 s/rifles/guns,weapons/ Mar 18 00:46:01 Does anybody know how many people are actually taking part in the developer challenge? Mar 18 00:46:17 " who would use a building to attack someone?" must be the ging talking, but are you talking about smacking people dead with a building? Mar 18 00:46:26 the challenge had bad timming Mar 18 00:46:36 had it happened in december... Mar 18 00:46:38 nezza-_-: which one, there are three challenges "running" Mar 18 00:46:42 'Whereas police in the United States and across the English Channel in Europe routinely carry sidearms, only about 2,500 officers among Scotland Yard's roster of 27,000 are authorized to use firearms, and most of those belong to special squads involved in anti-terrorist work or diplomatic and royal protection duties.' Mar 18 00:47:01 Zorkman_: the one from Risto H. Kurppa Mar 18 00:47:02 nezza-_-: I'm interested, but I've no time. Mar 18 00:47:16 * DocScrutinizer is going to learn esperanto. So nobody will understand and he always can insist in being right Mar 18 00:47:28 DocScrutinizer: lojban plox Mar 18 00:47:34 klingon. Mar 18 00:47:47 * SpeedEvil votes for klingon to be made the language of OM. Mar 18 00:47:51 The glyphs look cool. Mar 18 00:47:51 * mmontour learned esperanto as a child (and forgot it soon after that) Mar 18 00:47:53 kapp'la Mar 18 00:47:55 SpeedEvil: yeah, but "In York it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a crossbow upon seeing one, except for on Sundays. However any Scotsman caught drunk or with a weapon can still be shot on a Sunday, except with a bow and arrow." Mar 18 00:47:57 * nezza-_- votes for klingon, too Mar 18 00:48:03 lojban would be awesome for voice recognition Mar 18 00:48:36 Similarly in Chester it is legal to shoot a Welsh person with a crossbow, as long as it is within the city walls and is done after midnight. Mar 18 00:48:38 isn't lojban that "100% logical" language? Mar 18 00:48:42 so why the hell would they need guns? Mar 18 00:48:53 ``yes'' Mar 18 00:49:26 designed with computers in mind Mar 18 00:49:27 vininim: very bad idea to type this into a shell -.- Mar 18 00:50:00 heh, indeed Mar 18 00:50:06 nezza-_-: no, it should syntax error... Mar 18 00:50:08 * SeligArkin tries Mar 18 00:50:17 huh Mar 18 00:50:22 it doesn't Mar 18 00:50:23 I was shocked too Mar 18 00:50:25 I thought it would Mar 18 00:50:53 anyway, lojban phonetics is supposedly easier for speech recognition Mar 18 00:50:54 i pasted it into a remote shell and i had to close the connection to get it of (though it was still running in a screen, but the Ctrl+C was not recognized) Mar 18 00:51:08 yes alone does that Mar 18 00:51:16 how come that command does that? Mar 18 00:51:17 that's the whole purpose of yes Mar 18 00:51:22 nezza-_-: err, nothing a ^C couldn't cure Mar 18 00:51:30 it's designed for piping into commands that want user input Mar 18 00:51:46 yes no Mar 18 00:51:46 :(){ :|:;};: Mar 18 00:51:50 will output lots of nos Mar 18 00:51:53 also a bad thing to type into a shell Mar 18 00:52:00 mmontour: forkbomb :) Mar 18 00:52:17 THIS NEO SOFTWARE IS REALLY COOL! Mar 18 00:52:21 a test of whether or not you read the documentation for 'ulimit' Mar 18 00:53:10 hehe Mar 18 00:53:28 reading won't suffice ;) Mar 18 00:53:35 I type that into a friend's server sometimes Mar 18 00:53:42 when he need to shut it down Mar 18 00:54:01 SeligArkin: you also shoot while enemy down ;) Mar 18 00:54:30 "brb restarting" ssh friend-sever :(){:|:;};: Mar 18 00:54:45 if anyone is still -minded at this hour: cat /dev/ttySAC1 gives me this: http://pastebin.com/d4a85101a but tangogps still sees 0 sattelites, is this norma? Mar 18 00:54:49 *normal Mar 18 00:57:16 DocScrutinizer: he finds it amusing. :P Mar 18 00:59:47 seems changing the channel worked Mar 18 01:02:04 "" Mar 18 01:02:06 I want to download the kernel via wifi during bootloading phase. I Mar 18 01:02:07 am not sure is it difficult Mar 18 01:02:09 "" LOL Mar 18 01:02:33 * SpeedEvil ponders Mar 18 01:02:51 it's not hideously difficult I suppose. Mar 18 01:02:55 'use the source'. Mar 18 01:03:05 oh Mar 18 01:03:14 just drag in the kernel tcpip stack Mar 18 01:03:19 SpeedEvil: suggest to include it in Qi ;-) Mar 18 01:03:21 and dhclient Mar 18 01:03:30 and wireless-tools Mar 18 01:03:36 and stick them into qi Mar 18 01:03:42 I think I've mentioned boot over GPRS before Mar 18 01:04:08 even better :D Mar 18 01:04:13 and since most wireless networks need some form of auth/key Mar 18 01:04:29 rotfl Mar 18 01:04:30 throw in enough touchscreen and fb handling to put up a ui to ask for the key Mar 18 01:04:32 and handle input Mar 18 01:04:45 muahahahaha Mar 18 01:04:47 no problems! Mar 18 01:04:55 shouldnt be much work at all Mar 18 01:05:01 qi will still be small and fast Mar 18 01:05:08 sure Mar 18 01:05:30 sounds like uboot and adding usb support, pxe boot, etc Mar 18 01:05:30 it'll happen eventually Mar 18 01:05:53 * DocScrutinizer giggles Mar 18 01:05:56 raster: of course, to keep it small and flexible, you need a bootloader language. I suggest javascript. Mar 18 01:06:22 SpeedEvil: of course! Mar 18 01:06:36 SpeedEvil: but we cant have that be slow, so lets also put in a jit and a vm Mar 18 01:06:37 muuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuuu Mar 18 01:07:37 speedevil, well. we have OTA image updates for cellphones Mar 18 01:08:07 Blu3: yeah, you know how they're done? Mar 18 01:08:15 nope Mar 18 01:08:45 full system downloading an image, then flashing Mar 18 01:10:02 sounds about right Mar 18 01:10:34 that's... almost sane Mar 18 01:11:04 * raster wonders what what happened to the phone industry in creating something... sane Mar 18 01:12:01 Is the dash still on sale? Mar 18 01:12:05 And how much isi t? Mar 18 01:12:09 * SpeedEvil idly wonders. Mar 18 01:13:22 raster: we also pack wpa_supplicant on top of it Mar 18 01:13:41 raster: should be no problem :-) Mar 18 01:14:16 * nezza-_- slaps himself cause he hasn't recognized the small "--More--" in the down right edge Mar 18 01:15:13 . Mar 18 01:15:15 nezza-_-: oh yes. though i kind of assimed that was part of "wireless tools" :) Mar 18 01:15:58 raster: Well.. when will we release? in 2 hours? Mar 18 01:16:04 naw, make it amusing. a small app that pipes a hex editor thru netcat to the radio Mar 18 01:18:07 nezza-_-: no problems! :) Mar 18 01:18:16 raster: how goes your device that you're creating Mar 18 01:26:19 so. good nights guys! raster: happy hacking. Mar 18 01:27:26 ciao! Mar 18 01:27:37 rooly: still poking at it Mar 18 01:28:28 Too much poking can be bad. Mar 18 01:28:47 At some stage you've got to let it scab over, and heal into its final state, even if somewhat ugly. Mar 18 01:29:08 finalized on yer name yet? Mar 18 01:46:43 rooly: you have some xx k-bucks venture capital? Mar 18 01:47:06 i might in the not-to-distant future Mar 18 01:47:14 duh Mar 18 01:47:59 The key to a successful venture is to get a large slice of the VC up-front, then piss off to somewhere warm. Mar 18 01:48:15 * DocScrutinizer didn't expect that answer :)) Mar 18 01:48:25 lol Mar 18 01:49:35 rooly: well - name is the least important thing Mar 18 01:49:47 getting the right people in on it Mar 18 01:49:55 put 'i' in front of it Mar 18 01:50:07 and more importantly ensuring 1. you now how many customers u have (ie how many can be sold at what price) Mar 18 01:50:14 and then.. the funding to actually do it Mar 18 01:50:21 SpeedEvil: nah, 3 vowels don't work to well together in a 4-letter word Mar 18 01:50:38 and then leveraging initial buy into price decreases and volume Mar 18 01:52:58 but i'm pretty much settled on hardware ecept screen+ts panel are flexbile (and frankly they kind of go hand in hand and shape the overall design) Mar 18 01:53:05 and 3g is still a problem Mar 18 01:53:54 * rooly doesn't find 3g a necessity... Mar 18 01:54:26 the problem is - to most customers it is Mar 18 01:54:31 rooly: you're a rare species Mar 18 01:54:34 especially anyone wanting to buy in numbers Mar 18 01:54:36 eg telcos Mar 18 01:55:06 if it isnt 3g they dont muhc care unless its so hyper cheap that subsidy isnt needed or its minimal Mar 18 01:55:08 buy a selection of cheap 3g phones, find the most appropriate one, then buy a reballing machine. Mar 18 01:55:20 DocScrutinizer: i wouldn't say rare, more akin to "not sold to all the hype surrounding medium-bandwidth dailup" Mar 18 01:55:37 SpeedEvil: still need the specs to control the 3g chip Mar 18 01:55:49 SpeedEvil: theres several varieties - some are memory mapped Mar 18 01:55:57 not hooked up via serial or usb Mar 18 01:56:04 raster: yeah, I know Mar 18 01:56:27 SpeedEvil: we don't want another iphone Mar 18 01:56:32 raster: you don't want to have to implement the 3G stack of course, which'll knock out a fair subset Mar 18 01:57:00 I dunno. Mar 18 01:57:05 I do =D Mar 18 01:57:12 I don't think much is wrong with the iphone hardware Mar 18 01:57:32 I'm not talking hw Mar 18 01:57:43 oh Mar 18 01:58:03 * rooly agrees with speed on the hw of the iphone Mar 18 01:58:03 SpeedEvil: yeah. you want one with a "at command interface" and maybe a "high speed data transfer bus" (eg a usb device just for that) Mar 18 01:58:07 great peice of meat really Mar 18 01:58:32 rooly: i agree. i havent bought the 3g hype Mar 18 01:58:33 BUT Mar 18 01:58:40 telcos want it Mar 18 01:59:03 * DocScrutinizer got it and now wants it Mar 18 01:59:06 and if u ever want to have a chance at selling any decent quantity - u want 3g as thats the onyl way a telco will ever want to pony up money for it Mar 18 01:59:10 of course they do, cause they get to sell rediculously overpriced data plans, and rediculously overpriced phones to use those plans Mar 18 01:59:18 hmmm Mar 18 01:59:23 well actually - that depends where u are Mar 18 01:59:28 but in .au its the reverse Mar 18 01:59:38 2g data is about 100x more expensive than 3g data Mar 18 01:59:42 personally - I don't _especially_ care about kernel openness, or even hardware opennese. Binary blobs are just fine, as long as they have a nice abstraction layer. Mar 18 01:59:44 per mb Mar 18 01:59:53 And I can do anything to the UI I want. Mar 18 01:59:58 in fact the teclso want to get data the hell off their 2g networks Mar 18 01:59:59 yup here in D same Mar 18 02:00:10 I don't mind if the hardware is propatary, as long as I can interface with it however I want Mar 18 02:00:11 it clogs them up and they were just not designed for it Mar 18 02:00:16 3g was much better designed for data Mar 18 02:00:27 In the UK, for pay-as-you-go, you can get a day of 3G for 2 pounds. Or a day of 2G for 0.50 Mar 18 02:00:33 so to encourage data to get off their 2g networks.. they offer cheap 3g data and make 2g data hyper-expensive Mar 18 02:00:35 (if you buy 5 days) Mar 18 02:01:16 SpeedEvil: different there i guess Mar 18 02:01:21 making - surprisingly - 2G 'always on' about the same price as most DSL connections. Mar 18 02:01:25 but here its the total reverse Mar 18 02:01:35 of course - somewhat slower. Mar 18 02:01:42 Though not much. Mar 18 02:01:48 here you get a month for 25eur, no matter which transfer Mar 18 02:01:48 * SpeedEvil stabs his 160kbps DSL Mar 18 02:02:00 6gb of 3g data will be about 25eur for a month Mar 18 02:02:19 2g data for 6g will cost you last i calculated about 120x that Mar 18 02:02:45 but in the end - 3g is capable of higher speeds Mar 18 02:02:47 easily Mar 18 02:02:49 and lower latency Mar 18 02:02:54 latency on 2g is atrocious Mar 18 02:03:00 hspa is... far better Mar 18 02:03:11 and 3g give the user a choice at least Mar 18 02:03:21 they can choose just not to use it if its cheaper on 2g Mar 18 02:03:28 3g is useless for voice calls as u pay the same no matter what Mar 18 02:03:41 same for sms Mar 18 02:03:44 barring voip Mar 18 02:03:46 friend of mine uses hscsd instead of gprs 2G Mar 18 02:03:50 sure Mar 18 02:03:54 for latency reasons Mar 18 02:03:55 have any of you set up claws mail on your gta2? Mar 18 02:03:55 voip i just lump in with data Mar 18 02:04:04 Blu3: yes Mar 18 02:04:23 :) how do you get it to to -get- mail? Mar 18 02:04:55 i have my account all properly setup, it just doesn't react when i choose 'get mail' Mar 18 02:05:11 raster: hmm, I used voip over 3G, no problem Mar 18 02:05:12 i can send mail just fine Mar 18 02:05:28 DocScrutinizer: yeah - 3g has better latency Mar 18 02:05:32 i think umts still isnt great Mar 18 02:05:44 but hspa really improves it (from what i read) Mar 18 02:05:59 yup hsdpa here Mar 18 02:06:07 2g is pointless for voip Mar 18 02:06:11 first bandwidth Mar 18 02:06:13 sure Mar 18 02:06:19 gprs in theory does 40kbit or so Mar 18 02:06:21 (48) Mar 18 02:06:23 BUT Mar 18 02:06:24 second latency Mar 18 02:06:28 in practice u get about 20kbit Mar 18 02:06:43 so u are already low on the bandwidth side alone for voip Mar 18 02:06:53 letalone voip + anything else at the same time Mar 18 02:06:54 yup Mar 18 02:07:02 (video conf, browsing while doing voip etc.) Mar 18 02:07:09 so u need wifi or 3g for that Mar 18 02:07:19 do you have any wimax in .de? Mar 18 02:07:25 nope Mar 18 02:07:29 aaah Mar 18 02:07:35 some test areas Mar 18 02:07:44 so no commercial providers Mar 18 02:07:58 ok i guess .au is ahead there Mar 18 02:08:10 sydney and melbourne have unwired Mar 18 02:08:11 they are Mar 18 02:08:14 (wimax) Mar 18 02:09:22 raster: though we?üll get wimax all over the country during next 2 Y Mar 18 02:09:56 Merkel order ;) Mar 18 02:09:57 and wimax is infinite bandwidth for everyone. Mar 18 02:10:10 yeah sure Mar 18 02:10:18 even unwired isnt cheap Mar 18 02:10:19 ;) Mar 18 02:10:33 6g/mo on "3" (telco, 3g) is 49/mo Mar 18 02:10:35 though in principle steered beams could help some with that. Mar 18 02:10:44 And 60GHz helps lots, lots more Mar 18 02:10:52 unwired for the same is 39.95 Mar 18 02:10:56 ($AU) Mar 18 02:11:08 and thats also limited to 512/128kbit Mar 18 02:11:18 so technically i'd say the telco on 3g offers a better deal Mar 18 02:11:36 yup Mar 18 02:11:46 uk isn't too sucky. Mar 18 02:11:51 unless u are a heavy user Mar 18 02:11:51 if it's hspa Mar 18 02:12:12 $100/mo, 30gb 1024/256 Mar 18 02:12:13 'up to' 8M ADSL, 30G quotas/mo are quite common - 15-20 quid. Mar 18 02:12:18 if u pay for large amounts Mar 18 02:12:27 well some 5GB limit here as well Mar 18 02:12:31 but still not as fast as 3g Mar 18 02:12:42 for the 25bucks plan Mar 18 02:12:47 aaah Mar 18 02:12:52 yeah - limtied here too Mar 18 02:13:22 (on 3G that is) Mar 18 02:13:33 the 30g unwired plan at 1mbit down eur 50/mo isnt too bad Mar 18 02:13:39 no limits on DSL Mar 18 02:13:40 and they throttle you to 32kbit if u go over the 30g Mar 18 02:13:48 (this is wimax) Mar 18 02:14:34 No. Mar 18 02:14:37 anyway... seems to me 3g data is "competititve" Mar 18 02:14:38 This IS SPARTA! Mar 18 02:14:43 HAHAHAHA Mar 18 02:16:50 well raster, you'll need 3G hspa AND wimax I guess Mar 18 02:17:43 wimax is a bit of a problem atm as its not full of wimax chips Mar 18 02:17:50 not many of them Mar 18 02:17:53 yeah Mar 18 02:17:57 :-/ Mar 18 02:17:59 and not many providers Mar 18 02:18:09 better that maybe for a 2nd or 3rd gen device? Mar 18 02:18:16 hmm Mar 18 02:18:21 and widely varying band allocations as I understand it Mar 18 02:18:24 (unless some wimax provider steps up and wants to buy like a million units!) Mar 18 02:18:27 won't be a showstopper Mar 18 02:18:43 but we should mention it's on our road Mar 18 02:18:51 yeah Mar 18 02:19:03 once wimax settles down to a known quantity Mar 18 02:19:17 when either there are enough wimax providers around in major countries Mar 18 02:19:22 and a known sane set of bands to support Mar 18 02:19:34 or until some wimax provider turns up to buy a lot of units Mar 18 02:19:35 :) Mar 18 02:19:35 or a flexible chipset that can do all bands Mar 18 02:19:44 SpeedEvil: thats really hard Mar 18 02:19:48 I know Mar 18 02:19:56 * DocScrutinizer wonders which chipset N810-wimax-edition is using Mar 18 02:20:39 universal radio, yeah! Mar 18 02:20:57 one can dream Mar 18 02:22:09 raster: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc1101.html (not directly relevant alas) Mar 18 02:22:14 the problem is regulations therte Mar 18 02:22:26 as well as simply needing a lot of "cpu grunt" to do such a universal radio Mar 18 02:22:45 yup Mar 18 02:23:01 I know Mar 18 02:23:04 hmm Mar 18 02:23:24 i've got a school orginization that's looking to do a low-power software-based radio Mar 18 02:23:32 don't know what the status is Mar 18 02:23:37 can't get cert for GSM wit UR Mar 18 02:23:38 shall i find out? Mar 18 02:23:43 low power software radio is easy Mar 18 02:23:53 low power high bandwidth software radio is not easy. Mar 18 02:24:54 there are 'software radios' that are basically a HF (~10MHZ) reciever that digitises a 4KHz band, and then does FFT and stuff on it to recieve digital radio signals at a few tens of bits/second. Mar 18 02:25:04 rooly: asking won't hurt ;) Mar 18 02:25:34 that takes a few orders of magnitude less CPU than doing GSM or 3G or wimax in software. Mar 18 02:26:11 quite cool actually - some of the modes - psk31 for example - 31bps can get across continents on a watt Mar 18 02:26:36 and is fine - with compression - for keyboard-keyboard Mar 18 02:27:25 that's really cool Mar 18 02:28:24 though, always depend on which 2 continents involved ;) Mar 18 02:28:40 :) Mar 18 02:32:50 * DocScrutinizer wonders why no one considered building a new iridium mobile. those motorola are collector's priced meanwhile Mar 18 02:33:04 you can get phones Mar 18 02:33:09 new ones Mar 18 02:33:13 actually? Mar 18 02:33:33 also emergency devices Mar 18 02:33:36 http://international.findmespot.com/ Mar 18 02:33:48 wow, didnt notice Mar 18 02:34:57 I hope all the Iridiums come crashing down. Mar 18 02:34:58 http://satphone.co.uk/ Mar 18 02:35:04 KenYoung: why? Mar 18 02:35:09 flare? Mar 18 02:35:19 They're very bad for radio astronomy. Mar 18 02:35:30 what - hte freq? Mar 18 02:35:35 hmm, ok Mar 18 02:36:29 THey operate outside of the protected bands, but they are so powerful, and in the *sky*, that the saturate the receivers at places line Arecibo Observatory. Mar 18 02:36:42 of course Mar 18 02:36:55 band filters don't help a lot when your source is +180dB Mar 18 02:37:02 Exactly. Mar 18 02:37:10 yup Mar 18 02:37:45 like military sonar for the whales Mar 18 02:38:07 DocScrutinizer: how do they fit them with it? :) Mar 18 02:38:39 :) Mar 18 02:42:24 SpeedEvil: ti might be a good call for a general tranciever, but the problem is implementing al the software radio at all Mar 18 02:42:47 and rea,lly - legal matters mean in the ned u probably are just better off getting a "black box" 2g/3g module Mar 18 02:43:22 Interesting - http://store.satphone.co.uk/Catalog/Thrane-110-and-100-and-Accessories-formerly-Nera-WorldPro-1010-and-1000/TT-Explorer-110-ex-Nera-World-Pro-1010-BGAN-Terminal USB sat-modem - 384kbps, admittedly $2000 and $10/meg Mar 18 02:45:48 OUCH! Mar 18 02:57:45 I've installed SHR, and the neo works great! I'm trying to dwnload calypso_moko11.m0, but my file system is full. Is there anything I can delete? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Mar 18 02:59:56 2009