**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 07 02:59:58 2009
Apr 07 03:00:02 <fredrin> not here 
Apr 07 03:05:44 <slaxxin> hmmm
Apr 07 03:17:43 <slaxxin> 03252009  is the 1 so far
Apr 07 03:18:14 <slaxxin> too many settings icons on the latest
Apr 07 03:20:30 <Chocky> moo
Apr 07 03:38:02 <Dave> MOO
Apr 07 03:38:13 <Chocky> Big D.
Apr 07 03:45:06 <re-peat> Dave!
Apr 07 03:45:31 <hipitihop> Dave, what distro are you running these days
Apr 07 03:46:13 <re-peat> i'm using the latest unstable build of shr 
Apr 07 03:47:05 <re-peat> not bad
Apr 07 03:48:40 <Chocky> Dave is running all of them.  Especialy, secretly, Qtopia
Apr 07 03:49:09 <re-peat> heh more like secrety windows ce
Apr 07 03:53:59 * Chocky running Emdebian :p
Apr 07 03:56:55 <hipitihop> does shr have a PIM
Apr 07 03:57:53 <fredrin> nah
Apr 07 03:58:22 <fredrin> but you can save contacts to the sim 
Apr 07 03:59:47 <hipitihop>  booting, Qi says "Starting kernel..." and there she stays... maybe too impatient
Apr 07 03:59:59 <fredrin> wait
Apr 07 04:00:09 <fredrin> Qi don't give much info 
Apr 07 04:00:19 <hipitihop> or progress
Apr 07 04:00:26 <fredrin> nada
Apr 07 04:00:40 <hipitihop> less is more at times ;-)
Apr 07 04:01:42 * hipitihop starts to tap fingers
Apr 07 04:01:56 <fredrin> first boot?
Apr 07 04:02:03 <hipitihop> yes
Apr 07 04:02:11 <fredrin> that takes longer time
Apr 07 04:02:44 <fredrin> and a reboot after first boot is also recomended.... 
Apr 07 04:03:00 <hipitihop> still have uSD left in from previous trial of Android, so has fat + ext3 partition
Apr 07 04:03:01 <fredrin> if you got trouble with connecting over usb and ssh
Apr 07 04:06:05 * hipitihop starting to get concerned, still nothing
Apr 07 04:07:46 <Chocky> http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/02/27/funny-pictures-concerned-kitteh/
Apr 07 04:08:55 <hipitihop> surely can't take that long to boot first time, something must have gone wrong
Apr 07 04:09:49 <Dave> :P
Apr 07 04:10:03 <Chocky> It speaks.
Apr 07 04:10:08 <Dave> Yes
Apr 07 04:10:41 <Chocky> hm.  Poking at e17 under Debian.
Apr 07 04:13:55 <Dave> :)
Apr 07 04:14:12 <Chocky> thing is, why don't I get any desktop icons?
Apr 07 04:14:41 <hipitihop> ok, second boot attempt seems to be working... asking fro profile "illume" or "illume shr" what is the recommended 
Apr 07 04:14:49 <Chocky> heh
Apr 07 04:15:29 <hipitihop> I assdume I can switch later anyway, so picking shr
Apr 07 04:15:38 <Chocky> blow-by-blow noob.
Apr 07 04:15:46 <Dave> BUGGED!
Apr 07 04:16:18 <fredrin> hipitihop: you can change everythign it's OPEN :D
Apr 07 04:17:18 <Dave> hah!
Apr 07 04:17:39 <Dave> That doesn't preclude it from being useless or unhelpful.
Apr 07 04:17:40 <Dave> :)
Apr 07 04:17:53 * Chocky laffs
Apr 07 04:18:22 <fredrin> lol, it's oooooopen
Apr 07 04:18:54 <fredrin> http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2009/04/wile-e-reality-catches-up-to-freerunner.html     <--- LOL
Apr 07 04:19:57 * Chocky stabs lolusers.
Apr 07 04:20:57 <Chocky> Apart from it being an obvious troll, of a bad slashdot headline, it's clearly wrong :p
Apr 07 04:21:17 <Chocky> And bad grammar :p
Apr 07 04:24:06 <Dave> YES
Apr 07 04:24:20 <Chocky> Besides, OM was never ALIVE.
Apr 07 04:24:34 <Chocky> OM DEFIES DEATH!
Apr 07 04:24:43 <Chocky> </Drama Dave>
Apr 07 04:25:05 <Dave> :D
Apr 07 04:25:11 <Dave> A tribute to me, I see :)
Apr 07 04:25:13 <Dave> thanks :p
Apr 07 04:25:53 <Chocky> A mixed blessing, to be sure.
Apr 07 04:26:11 <hipitihop> fredrin: yes realise that :-) sorry to all for my noise.. getting pam error on screen lock
Apr 07 04:26:24 <Dave> :)
Apr 07 04:26:41 <fredrin> hipitihop: it's cool man 
Apr 07 04:26:45 <fredrin> :)
Apr 07 04:29:17 <Dave> kuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Apr 07 04:30:12 <hipitihop> well just missed a real call, tried to accept and it kept vibrating, no sound and couldn't pick it up grrr
Apr 07 04:31:53 <ndnihil> have you upgraded the GSM firmware?
Apr 07 04:32:08 <hipitihop> ndnihil: yes, moko11
Apr 07 04:33:09 <ndnihil> doh, that was my only suggestion :)
Apr 07 04:33:35 <hipitihop> actually can't hear a thing when I try and establish a call either
Apr 07 04:35:22 <ndnihil> strange, mine works pretty decent for calls
Apr 07 04:35:28 <ndnihil> what dist you running?
Apr 07 04:37:22 <hipitihop> ndnihil: just trying shr unstable as per someone's recommendation here ... pretty, a little sluggish and certainly fails on teh first few minutes end user test
Apr 07 04:37:51 <ndnihil> well there you go, the "unstable" part of "SHR unstable" should tell you something :)
Apr 07 04:38:02 <ndnihil> I'm using SHR testing fwiw
Apr 07 04:38:02 <hipitihop> ndnihil: been using qt-extended for months. tried Android this morning, threw that out.
Apr 07 04:38:18 <fredrin> my bad... unstable works nice for me 
Apr 07 04:38:23 <fredrin> just updated today
Apr 07 04:39:42 <hipitihop> fredrin: not your fault, certainly looks nice.. just rebooted again to see if things improve re calls
Apr 07 04:51:25 <hipitihop> fredrin: ok, after finding advanced mixer setting, managed to turn off mute and now can at least hear the call and others can hear me, albeit muffled and far away, so a start I guess
Apr 07 04:53:31 <fredrin> hipitihop: :) and if it aint broken, tweak it :) 
Apr 07 04:53:31 <fredrin> http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Tweaks
Apr 07 05:07:54 <MokoN00b> is raster up yet?
Apr 07 05:08:36 <fredrin> had ssh over wifi with wpa2 encryption going for a sec, untill it suspended
Apr 07 05:11:33 <MokoN00b> why encrypt wifi when youre using ssh over it?
Apr 07 05:11:59 <fredrin> MokoN00b: i'm using the neighbours wifi 
Apr 07 05:12:13 <fredrin> dont want to mess with his settings and i dont have the password to the router
Apr 07 05:12:45 <MokoN00b> hahahahaha
Apr 07 05:12:52 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 05:57:17 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/06/openmoko/ <-- hmm
Apr 07 05:58:07 <MokoN00b> yeah, i got on to discuss that yesterday
Apr 07 05:58:22 <KenYoung> ruskie, If that interests you, there's a lot of discussion about it on the community mailing list.
Apr 07 05:58:30 <MokoN00b> they are going to plan B (whatever that is)
Apr 07 05:59:00 <KenYoung> MokoN00b, For the time being (at least the rest of '09) yes.
Apr 07 05:59:14 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 05:59:21 <MokoN00b> i hope plan B is good
Apr 07 05:59:31 <MokoN00b> it would be a shame to have openmoko disappear
Apr 07 05:59:35 <MokoN00b> especially now
Apr 07 05:59:44 <KenYoung> MokoN00b, I certainly agree.
Apr 07 05:59:52 <MokoN00b> since the greatest opportunity exists now
Apr 07 06:00:07 <MokoN00b> android is nearly impotent
Apr 07 06:00:12 <KenYoung> THey really do seem close to making the Freerunner into a real phone.
Apr 07 06:00:17 <MokoN00b> the iphone cant run more than  one app at a time
Apr 07 06:00:44 <MokoN00b> and smart phones have hit a plateu
Apr 07 06:00:58 <MokoN00b> most users cant even see why they need anything more than a phone
Apr 07 06:01:04 <KenYoung> MokoN00b, The iPhone can, of course, run more thatn one ap at a time.   Apple just won't allow that for 3rd party aps.
Apr 07 06:01:32 <MokoN00b> but the browser and GPS are built in
Apr 07 06:01:36 <ruskie> KenYoung, yeah I'm subscribed to the ML but it's really heavy traffic so I don't manage to follow everything
Apr 07 06:01:39 <MokoN00b> and you have to close one to use the other
Apr 07 06:02:25 <MokoN00b> and i recently found that the android media player doesnt even play video
Apr 07 06:02:35 <MokoN00b> im still shocked about that
Apr 07 06:02:53 <KenYoung> MokoN00b, But it's an artificial limitation Apple could drop at any time.   I'm not claiming it's good, but the basic OS allows background aps.
Apr 07 06:02:57 <MokoN00b> how can a stock media player not play video
Apr 07 06:02:58 <ruskie> I'm more and more thinking about getting a freerunner... but as one of the commenters on that post said... a hw keyboard(or in his case kb OR camera) would clinch the deal....
Apr 07 06:03:12 <MokoN00b> i agree with that
Apr 07 06:03:28 <KenYoung> I am not sorry I have purchased Freerunners.
Apr 07 06:03:30 <MokoN00b> if there was some way to buy a keyboard that would attach to it, it would be an awesome device
Apr 07 06:03:38 <MokoN00b> neither am i
Apr 07 06:03:47 <MokoN00b> i like the freerunner very much
Apr 07 06:04:02 <ruskie> I'll probably buy it in a few months time depending on cashflow
Apr 07 06:04:08 <MokoN00b> i like being able to switch OSes like i do on a desktop
Apr 07 06:04:52 <MokoN00b> i like being able to have a desktop on a small screen, too
Apr 07 06:05:00 <ruskie> then I need to find someone who can design hardware and have some capabilities to fab it...
Apr 07 06:05:18 <ruskie> would like to see a keypad made for it... in a slide out config
Apr 07 06:05:47 <MokoN00b> considering the current design, that would be difficult
Apr 07 06:05:58 <ruskie> would redesign the case as well ;)
Apr 07 06:06:00 <MokoN00b> but a keyboard with a clip to hold the unit might be doable
Apr 07 06:06:15 <ruskie> since I don't really like the current design... ;)
Apr 07 06:06:17 <MokoN00b> is raster up yet?
Apr 07 06:06:32 <MokoN00b> i really want to see his future phone sketch from yesterday
Apr 07 06:06:34 <ruskie> though is is all in sometime in the future dreaming
Apr 07 06:07:01 <MokoN00b> i figure if they could just get the whole thing behind the screen, it would be nice enough
Apr 07 06:07:18 <MokoN00b> at least that way, my girlfriend would stop calling it "king kong"
Apr 07 06:07:32 <KenYoung> Dreaming is easy.   You've gotta give OM some credit.   They actually got a hardware product out the door.
Apr 07 06:07:40 <MokoN00b> i agree
Apr 07 06:07:55 <MokoN00b> in fact, the hardware is nice
Apr 07 06:08:12 <KenYoung> 'cept for Glamo
Apr 07 06:08:16 <MokoN00b> its better than anything ive ever seen from nokia
Apr 07 06:08:34 <raster> MokoN00b:  ya. up.
Apr 07 06:08:42 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 06:08:51 <MokoN00b> so, did you finish your sketch yesterday?
Apr 07 06:08:57 <MokoN00b> i want a new dream
Apr 07 06:08:58 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 06:09:30 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/files/openphone-mk2.png
Apr 07 06:09:33 <ruskie> and also waiting on the openpandora... though iirc that one also has some non-Free hw bits...
Apr 07 06:09:49 <raster> ruskie:  those bits can be ignored
Apr 07 06:09:50 <fredrin> i saw it 
Apr 07 06:10:02 <raster> you dont need them
Apr 07 06:10:05 <ruskie> true
Apr 07 06:10:12 <ruskie> raster, hmm where's the hw keypad in there?
Apr 07 06:10:26 <ruskie> or just not rendered or hidden?
Apr 07 06:10:36 <ndnihil> you know, that blank bottom area would be great for OLED icons and touch sensitive surface 
Apr 07 06:10:54 <MokoN00b> is the black space at the bottom for a keypad?
Apr 07 06:11:19 <ruskie> ndnihil, needs to be hw keypad...
Apr 07 06:11:21 <raster> ruskie:  there isnt one
Apr 07 06:11:23 <ndnihil> screen is kinda long'ish no?
Apr 07 06:11:24 <ruskie> :(
Apr 07 06:11:39 <ruskie> a hw keypad should be a must on everything...
Apr 07 06:11:40 <raster> yes
Apr 07 06:11:44 <raster> its a 320x640 screen
Apr 07 06:11:54 <MokoN00b> im thinking of widescreen movies on the phone
Apr 07 06:12:02 <raster> ruskie:  iphone doesnt seem to think so
Apr 07 06:12:08 <ndnihil> oooh, and I see a place to put the stylus
Apr 07 06:12:08 <raster> neither do now a dozen other phones
Apr 07 06:12:11 <ndnihil> I'll buy two
Apr 07 06:12:13 <raster> its not a must
Apr 07 06:12:17 <raster> its a source of problems
Apr 07 06:12:28 <raster> the more mechanical bits u have - the harder it is
Apr 07 06:12:42 <raster> and stylus wont work
Apr 07 06:12:45 <raster> it'd be capacitive
Apr 07 06:12:47 <raster> use fingers
Apr 07 06:12:50 <raster> no need for stylus
Apr 07 06:12:51 <ndnihil> argh no
Apr 07 06:12:58 <ndnihil> my hands are huge
Apr 07 06:13:03 <ruskie> still can't be blind typed on it...
Apr 07 06:13:05 <MokoN00b> i figure the speaker space could be reduced to a fraction of what it is
Apr 07 06:13:11 <raster> no it cant
Apr 07 06:13:21 <raster> but mechanical stuff is generally a problem
Apr 07 06:13:23 <MokoN00b> okay, why not?
Apr 07 06:13:24 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 06:13:35 <raster> because it is a source of breakage
Apr 07 06:13:45 <raster> and make mechanical design much harder
Apr 07 06:13:47 <ruskie> everything is a source of breakage
Apr 07 06:13:57 <raster> as now you have a lot of fiddly parts that fall off and break
Apr 07 06:14:11 <ruskie> depends how it's designed...
Apr 07 06:14:19 <raster> the thing is long in order to have room for separate 2g/3g modules
Apr 07 06:14:26 <ruskie> other cell phones seem to handle not falling to pieces pretty well
Apr 07 06:14:27 <MokoN00b> i like the curved surface
Apr 07 06:14:29 <raster> so you can plug in ewither 2g or 3g on a separate board
Apr 07 06:14:39 <MokoN00b> so, youve planned the internals as well?
Apr 07 06:14:43 <fredrin> can one have other capasative surfuces 
Apr 07 06:14:43 <raster> ruskie:  unlessa you have a genius mechanical design guy sitting there...
Apr 07 06:14:46 <raster> whcih we dont
Apr 07 06:14:51 <raster> MokoN00b: yes.
Apr 07 06:14:54 <ruskie> ahhh
Apr 07 06:14:55 <MokoN00b> kewl
Apr 07 06:14:55 <raster> just havent drawn them up
Apr 07 06:14:55 <KenYoung> raster, Why separate 2g/3g ? Why both?
Apr 07 06:15:08 <raster> there is room for led's in the bottom panel for status and indicators
Apr 07 06:15:17 <MokoN00b> thats a good question
Apr 07 06:15:18 <raster> KenYoung:  3g is much more expensive
Apr 07 06:15:18 <fredrin> they started a gta03 mailinglist....
Apr 07 06:15:30 <MokoN00b> isnt 3g backwards compatible with 2g?
Apr 07 06:15:31 <raster> KenYoung:  add 3g and price will go up by $250
Apr 07 06:15:39 <raster> (compared to 2g)
Apr 07 06:15:50 <MokoN00b> im assuming this includes wifi
Apr 07 06:15:56 <raster> yes
Apr 07 06:16:00 <ndnihil> nobody is going to opt for the 2g version
Apr 07 06:16:02 <fredrin> blah, get a free 3d bluetooth/usb moden for 0,- with a subscription 
Apr 07 06:16:06 <raster> just the baseband (2g or 3g) is pluggable
Apr 07 06:16:12 <raster> due to patnent/licenses and cost
Apr 07 06:16:12 <MokoN00b> 2g + wifi = 4g
Apr 07 06:16:16 <MokoN00b> better than 3g
Apr 07 06:16:18 <raster> 3g is a lot more expensive than 2g
Apr 07 06:16:23 <MokoN00b> except in japan
Apr 07 06:16:26 <raster> MokoN00b:  absolutely not
Apr 07 06:16:30 <fredrin> good wifi is super important
Apr 07 06:16:32 <ndnihil> 3g is also the "standard" these days
Apr 07 06:16:33 <ruskie> hmm why is the screen curved?
Apr 07 06:16:35 <raster> 3g can do up to 7mbit
Apr 07 06:16:36 <ruskie> why not flat?
Apr 07 06:16:42 <fredrin> at least here in south america 
Apr 07 06:16:44 <raster> and unlike wifi.. it WORKS most places
Apr 07 06:16:47 <raster> wifi barely works
Apr 07 06:16:48 <ndnihil> 2.5g is the hot shit
Apr 07 06:16:49 <ruskie> yeah
Apr 07 06:16:51 <raster> it will drop out as you walk
Apr 07 06:16:54 <fredrin> where 3g is just a joke and a sales thing
Apr 07 06:16:55 <ndnihil> er
Apr 07 06:16:56 <ruskie> 3g works nicely
Apr 07 06:16:57 <ndnihil> 3.5g
Apr 07 06:17:04 <raster> it will require you sign  up for at least 2 or 3 hotspot providers and pay extra
Apr 07 06:17:08 <ruskie> unlimited data plans ftw
Apr 07 06:17:10 <raster> and then opnly use it when in those hotspots
Apr 07 06:17:15 <fredrin> everytihhng is 3G 3.5G 3.7G 
Apr 07 06:17:19 <raster> wifi is useful primarily for when at home or the office
Apr 07 06:17:22 <raster> on the go its useless
Apr 07 06:17:27 <MokoN00b> i agree that 3g sucks
Apr 07 06:17:48 <MokoN00b> but it looks like we will all be forced to pay qualcomm
Apr 07 06:18:00 <ruskie> gotta love stupid patents
Apr 07 06:18:07 <raster> 3g is the only way in .au to get sane data rates
Apr 07 06:18:07 <fredrin> raster: when at friends, hostels, walking, in parks, bars, clubs wifi is important
Apr 07 06:18:11 <raster> for starters
Apr 07 06:18:16 <MokoN00b> i agree that wifi roaming sucks
Apr 07 06:18:19 <raster> they charge about 100x as much for data over 2g
Apr 07 06:18:23 <raster> and wifi is just a mess
Apr 07 06:18:35 <raster> unliek your telco u cant just "subscribe" and have it work wherever you go
Apr 07 06:18:36 <fredrin> MokoN00b: only because it's not done right
Apr 07 06:18:41 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:18:48 <MokoN00b> wifi is nice when you are stationary
Apr 07 06:18:50 <raster> the FACT is its an infra you cant change
Apr 07 06:18:51 <raster> thats life
Apr 07 06:18:56 <raster> no point fighting it
Apr 07 06:18:59 <raster> it wont make an impact
Apr 07 06:19:02 <raster> best to go WITHित
Apr 07 06:19:05 <fredrin> but the tech don't exist in markets where the phone could sell well
Apr 07 06:19:09 <raster> WITH it
Apr 07 06:19:23 <raster> fredrin: like where?
Apr 07 06:19:34 <raster> its too expensive to sell anywhere except the developed western world
Apr 07 06:19:36 <fredrin> uruguay and argentina and brazi9l 
Apr 07 06:20:09 <MokoN00b> yeah, well, is there a way that a handset could be designed that would allow wifi roaming like a cellphone without any help from the network operators?
Apr 07 06:20:10 <raster> i doubt it
Apr 07 06:20:33 <raster> it'd cost about $550 just for the base with NO 2g or 3g
Apr 07 06:20:38 <raster> ass $100 for 2g
Apr 07 06:20:49 <raster> hmm wait
Apr 07 06:20:51 <raster> $500 for base
Apr 07 06:20:54 <raster> $100 for 2g
Apr 07 06:20:57 <raster> $250 for 3g
Apr 07 06:21:03 <raster> (thats add)
Apr 07 06:21:25 <raster> in argentina/brazil thats far beyond what all but the wealthiest can afford
Apr 07 06:21:31 <KenYoung> Bait and switch
Apr 07 06:21:32 <fredrin> roaming is not sooo important when you have gprs, more when you are at the same places everytime, it's good to be connected to wifi just for a bit
Apr 07 06:21:35 <raster> UNLESS you can sell millions of them
Apr 07 06:21:49 <fredrin> people in brasil have more money
Apr 07 06:21:51 <raster> if this is just an open linux phone u may sell 50,000
Apr 07 06:21:54 <MokoN00b> yeah, but in china, just about everyone could afford that
Apr 07 06:22:06 <raster> whihc in the scheme of making hardware like phones is nothing
Apr 07 06:22:26 <raster> its so tiny most supliers wont even answer the phone for an order of parts under 100,000 units
Apr 07 06:22:34 <raster> its not wirth their time to ev en sign the sales contract
Apr 07 06:22:42 <MokoN00b> hard to say
Apr 07 06:22:47 <fredrin> open and linux phone is not so big selling point for a _good_ phone, relative to what ever good is
Apr 07 06:22:58 <raster> so you end up buying in small quantities
Apr 07 06:23:00 <MokoN00b> right now all the semiconductor businesses are so hurting for anything, they might do it
Apr 07 06:23:10 <raster> nokia pay $20 for a chip you will have to pay $100 for
Apr 07 06:23:21 <raster> because nokia buy 5 million of them
Apr 07 06:23:27 <raster> you buy 10,000
Apr 07 06:23:28 <fredrin> use the finacial crisis for all it's good for :) 
Apr 07 06:23:30 <MokoN00b> too bad we cant get someone like nokia to help us
Apr 07 06:24:01 <MokoN00b> yeah, a couple of months ago TSMCs business dropped to zero
Apr 07 06:24:05 <MokoN00b> scary
Apr 07 06:24:33 <MokoN00b> is that pyramid a docking station?
Apr 07 06:24:40 <ruskie> hmm I need to figure out if I could power the 3g dongle on a powerpack while still have it plugged into the freerunner...
Apr 07 06:24:44 <husku> raster: you can get decent, durable, longlasting nokia for 40€ in Finland, brand new without any strings attached. <-- means, masses wont buy >400$ phone to get something that remotely looks like a phone.
Apr 07 06:25:03 <raster> husku: then give up and go home
Apr 07 06:25:08 <raster> without volume u cant compete on price
Apr 07 06:25:08 <husku> raster: no!
Apr 07 06:25:10 <raster> simple as that
Apr 07 06:25:16 <raster> also note
Apr 07 06:25:23 <raster> you really need to say what phone it is
Apr 07 06:25:28 <raster> its probably a standard featurephone
Apr 07 06:25:34 <raster> that means no separate CPU for the os
Apr 07 06:25:39 <raster> runing everything integrated on 1 chip
Apr 07 06:25:42 <raster> everything low specs
Apr 07 06:25:51 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:25:52 <raster> ALSO note that nokia are one of the major patent holders for 3g
Apr 07 06:25:53 <husku> raster: i just mean that talks about developing countries adopting mokos, i cant see that happening since (at least for me) moko represents a "luxury hobby object"
Apr 07 06:26:02 <MokoN00b> and we all need more stuff from smartphones
Apr 07 06:26:02 <raster> everyone else has tyo pay patent royalties TO nokia
Apr 07 06:26:09 <raster> nokia can just pay $0 to themselves
Apr 07 06:26:16 <raster> thus you will NEVEr compete with nokia
Apr 07 06:26:21 <raster> unless you too are in that boat
Apr 07 06:26:23 <raster> eg like qualcomm
Apr 07 06:26:44 <raster> husku: yup. i dont see an open phone being able to be cheap
Apr 07 06:26:49 <raster> it just is very uinlikeluy
Apr 07 06:26:50 <MokoN00b> you could call any phone a "luxury hobby object"
Apr 07 06:26:58 <raster> unless you are willing to compromise "open"
Apr 07 06:27:02 <raster> ie have some binary drivers
Apr 07 06:27:03 <raster> etc. etc.
Apr 07 06:27:06 <raster> or lots of them
Apr 07 06:27:18 <raster> in which case
Apr 07 06:27:23 <raster> you pretty much have android phones
Apr 07 06:27:30 <raster> though you dont have a linux os
Apr 07 06:27:34 <raster> just a linux kernel
Apr 07 06:27:39 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:27:52 <MokoN00b> without the rest of GNU, its pretty pointless
Apr 07 06:28:22 <raster> yup
Apr 07 06:28:23 <MokoN00b> android is so limited, i would go so far as to say its "broken"
Apr 07 06:28:25 <fredrin> but the software and stuff you could do with it could be better than nokia 
Apr 07 06:28:34 <raster> why?
Apr 07 06:28:43 <raster> symbian development has been open and possible for years
Apr 07 06:28:48 <raster> it just is royally painful
Apr 07 06:29:48 <husku> theres no point for moko to try to compete with major phone manufacturers. it is just not reasonable.
Apr 07 06:29:55 <Shlee> Android is "open".. but its not the kind of open FOSS people want
Apr 07 06:31:07 <fredrin> most people just want to have a good phone, even iphone people, in their idle time they want to do creative/fun stuff with it and then some people like it to really orgenize their lifes 
Apr 07 06:31:24 <raster> husku:  correct
Apr 07 06:31:25 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:31:30 <raster> so look at it at another angle
Apr 07 06:31:41 <MokoN00b> basic functionality is essential
Apr 07 06:31:43 <raster> the niche - the people who really give a damn about their phone ebing open
Apr 07 06:31:50 <raster> and actually "linux" in the sense they understand
Apr 07 06:31:59 <raster> ie normal kernel, glibc, userspace, x11, etc.
Apr 07 06:32:00 <MokoN00b> it shouldnt be that way, though
Apr 07 06:32:08 <raster> those people.. they want something slightly special
Apr 07 06:32:08 <MokoN00b> they should want linux because it can do more
Apr 07 06:32:11 <fredrin> they get the phone they want anyway 
Apr 07 06:32:15 <ndnihil> thatsame!
Apr 07 06:32:17 <MokoN00b> and that is a fact
Apr 07 06:32:18 <raster> they dont want to blend into the crowd with yet another thing everyone else has
Apr 07 06:32:22 <raster> they want somethig they can hack
Apr 07 06:32:28 <raster> and they want somehting probably fairly powerful
Apr 07 06:32:35 <raster> as they want to do interesting stuff with it
Apr 07 06:32:40 <raster> the more grunt you have.. the better
Apr 07 06:32:50 <Shlee> Isn't Android about standards? something designed for one android should run on all androids?
Apr 07 06:32:54 <raster> and if it costs them $800
Apr 07 06:32:56 <raster> they will pay it
Apr 07 06:33:12 <MokoN00b> i only want something i can hack because i know that no phone designer would ever think of all the possibilities as far as my personal usage is concerned
Apr 07 06:33:18 <raster> (btw an iphone retail is $700 fyi. most smartphones range about $500-$1500 retail)
Apr 07 06:33:23 <fredrin> raster: true, but they still need a good phone, that even their girlfrind would like to have 
Apr 07 06:33:33 <husku> Shlee: android is about hype. nothing more, nothing less.
Apr 07 06:33:41 <raster> fredrin:  yes. not saying it shouldnt be good
Apr 07 06:33:47 <raster> but the cost is "less important"
Apr 07 06:33:48 <MokoN00b> prices are not like that in taiwan
Apr 07 06:33:50 <ruskie> Shlee, nothing google is about standards... they've manage to make a mess out of imap just like m$ has...
Apr 07 06:33:55 <raster> they are not trying to shave $50 off the cost of their phone
Apr 07 06:33:57 <fredrin> just have two desktops, lol
Apr 07 06:34:03 <raster> they are trying to get something specifc
Apr 07 06:34:10 <MokoN00b> i can buy most smartphones retail for about US$400
Apr 07 06:34:24 <MokoN00b> the iphone is comparatively expensive
Apr 07 06:34:28 <raster> MokoN00b: oince they are a bit old
Apr 07 06:34:55 <raster> i suggest you actually check out the phone stores one day that sell "unlocked unlkimited" handsest stand-alone
Apr 07 06:35:03 <ruskie> I wonder if the freerunner could last 6 years like my ancient n5110 did...
Apr 07 06:35:10 <MokoN00b> no, the prices have really dropped over the last two years
Apr 07 06:35:11 <raster> i have seen the swankiest sexiest newest ones hit $1500+
Apr 07 06:35:23 <raster> if its slightly older (been out for a year or so) it drops in price
Apr 07 06:35:40 <MokoN00b> except for the iphone and HTC, most smart phones are in the 400 dollar range
Apr 07 06:35:44 <raster> i am talking the rrp of a new smartphone
Apr 07 06:35:56 <raster> depends
Apr 07 06:35:58 <raster> the lower end - yes
Apr 07 06:36:01 <raster> the higher end.. no
Apr 07 06:36:07 <MokoN00b> the US$1500 phones are a marketing gimmick
Apr 07 06:36:10 <MokoN00b> like prada
Apr 07 06:36:14 <MokoN00b> all fashion
Apr 07 06:36:16 <MokoN00b> no function
Apr 07 06:36:18 <fredrin> true
Apr 07 06:36:21 <raster> sure
Apr 07 06:36:27 <fredrin> the neo owns prada phones
Apr 07 06:36:40 <husku> i have never seen >1000€ phone.
Apr 07 06:36:48 <raster> http://www.shopbot.com.au/pp-htc-touch-hd-price-132248.html
Apr 07 06:36:53 <raster> for example
Apr 07 06:36:55 <MokoN00b> nokia had one
Apr 07 06:37:03 <raster> just picking one
Apr 07 06:37:05 <MokoN00b> but it had a gold case
Apr 07 06:37:07 <raster> thats NOT the $400 range
Apr 07 06:37:13 <raster> MokoN00b:  vertu
Apr 07 06:37:47 <raster> husku: u havent looked around much at phones then :)
Apr 07 06:37:49 <MokoN00b> but if im going to buy a gold or stainless steel phone, im not going to blame the price on the internals
Apr 07 06:37:49 <raster> the point is
Apr 07 06:38:10 <raster> a $600, $700 or $800 smartphone - IFित हास रेाललय गोदो सपेचस।। िस नोत ुनहेारद ो् ास ा रेतािल परिचे
Apr 07 06:38:12 <raster> oops
Apr 07 06:38:23 <raster> $600-$800 smartphone - retail price.. is not unheard of
Apr 07 06:38:27 <raster> if it has good specs
Apr 07 06:38:28 <MokoN00b> why does that keep coming out in tibetan?
Apr 07 06:38:32 <husku> raster: holy shit! who in their right mind uses that amount of money to pda, when they could get the newest and sexiest nokia communicator + good laptop + hd-tv
Apr 07 06:38:34 <raster> now if you also get one that is open
Apr 07 06:38:39 <raster> thats an added feature
Apr 07 06:38:52 <raster> MokoN00b:  my input method (shift+space) turns on
Apr 07 06:38:52 <raster> :)
Apr 07 06:39:08 <MokoN00b> $600-$800 was typical a couple of years ago
Apr 07 06:39:15 <raster> typical even now
Apr 07 06:39:25 <MokoN00b> you can write tibetan?
Apr 07 06:39:28 <husku> raster: 600-800 are not unheard of. most expensive ive seen here has been 976€ and i thought "wtf"
Apr 07 06:39:33 <MokoN00b> typical for the highest end
Apr 07 06:39:51 <MokoN00b> but even the freerunner was around US$400
Apr 07 06:40:01 <MokoN00b> and that was about a month after launch
Apr 07 06:40:04 <raster> sure
Apr 07 06:40:09 <raster> but i'm not talking of a freerunner
Apr 07 06:40:13 <raster> whihc is pretyt low-end tech
Apr 07 06:40:18 <raster> i am talking of something high end
Apr 07 06:40:25 <raster> really good specs
Apr 07 06:40:30 <MokoN00b> considering it had features that even the iphone didnt, i thought it was a bargain
Apr 07 06:40:44 <husku> raster: how much battery life do you get on a 15000$ phone?
Apr 07 06:41:04 <MokoN00b> also, it was almost half the cost of my A780 3.5 years earlier
Apr 07 06:41:06 <raster> 515k?
Apr 07 06:41:11 <raster> err15k?
Apr 07 06:41:28 <husku> raster: ups. 1500$ i meant to type :)
Apr 07 06:41:45 <raster> same as  $500 one
Apr 07 06:41:49 <MokoN00b> the battery life is no better, i assume
Apr 07 06:42:08 <MokoN00b> the only amazing battery ive ever seen was this phone i bought in japan
Apr 07 06:42:35 <MokoN00b> i bought it for US$45 or so at 7-11 (of all places!)
Apr 07 06:42:36 <husku> raster: which means, when its one year old it hangs in there for a couple of days, if you do not use it. on heavy use (which it was meant for) it lasts for few hours ?
Apr 07 06:42:45 <MokoN00b> it was "disposable"
Apr 07 06:42:53 <Wonka> the cool thing is, i see raster's tibetan typos on my FR in tibetan glyphs...
Apr 07 06:42:57 <MokoN00b> but the battery lasted like a week on a single charge
Apr 07 06:43:04 <MokoN00b> i forgot the charger in japan
Apr 07 06:43:05 <raster> haaahaa
Apr 07 06:43:11 <Wonka> what other phone has that?
Apr 07 06:43:30 <raster> Wonka: iphone
Apr 07 06:43:31 <MokoN00b> i turned it on six months (SIX MONTHS!!!) later, and it still had a 50% charge
Apr 07 06:43:48 <MokoN00b> i could still turn it on after 8 months
Apr 07 06:44:07 <MokoN00b> i have never seen anything that came even close to that
Apr 07 06:44:18 <fredrin> could one develop a better battery on the curren FR? 
Apr 07 06:44:34 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:44:42 <MokoN00b> or you can buy a couple more
Apr 07 06:44:43 <Wonka> MokoN00b: low self discharge accumulators.
Apr 07 06:45:02 <MokoN00b> and a standalone charger
Apr 07 06:45:04 <Wonka> MokoN00b: look for eneloop on wikipedia
Apr 07 06:45:41 <fredrin> wondering if one could fit a camera module over the simcard on the Neo
Apr 07 06:45:49 <MokoN00b> weird
Apr 07 06:45:53 <raster> the $1500 phones are either that because of brand, immage or something special
Apr 07 06:45:54 <MokoN00b> why dont all phones have that?
Apr 07 06:45:57 <raster> eg glass instead of plastic
Apr 07 06:45:59 <fredrin> ther's some rom there and close to usb
Apr 07 06:46:06 <raster> chromed metal instead of plastic mold
Apr 07 06:46:10 <raster> or some really high end hw
Apr 07 06:46:19 <raster> er 10mpixel camera with full telescopic zoom lens
Apr 07 06:46:21 <MokoN00b> but even then, the phone stayed charged for like 5 days or more when on
Apr 07 06:46:26 <raster> or a really high end cpu
Apr 07 06:46:33 <raster> or really big/high res screen
Apr 07 06:46:34 <raster> etc.
Apr 07 06:46:57 <MokoN00b> this particular model had a fairly nice screen, too
Apr 07 06:47:11 <raster> MokoN00b:  japanese phones are totally nuts
Apr 07 06:47:18 <raster>  but japan is a different world
Apr 07 06:47:23 <raster> tyhe telcos totally control the market
Apr 07 06:47:24 <raster> 100%
Apr 07 06:47:24 <MokoN00b> i was really shocked that a "disposable" phone was almost nicer than most full phones
Apr 07 06:47:26 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:47:29 <MokoN00b> japan is nuts
Apr 07 06:47:40 <fredrin> raster: it's they way the west is going
Apr 07 06:47:58 <MokoN00b> unfortunately, their cellphone service providers are even worse than anywhere else
Apr 07 06:48:01 <raster> fredrin:  depends where in the west
Apr 07 06:48:08 <MokoN00b> their internet access was totally restricted
Apr 07 06:48:12 <raster> in europe phones are much more detached frolm the telco
Apr 07 06:48:14 <raster> in .au too
Apr 07 06:48:17 <fredrin> people are adicted to their phones 
Apr 07 06:48:27 <MokoN00b> i think thats one of the things that made me hate 3g the most
Apr 07 06:48:30 <fredrin> the business modell of the iphone
Apr 07 06:48:45 <raster> MokoN00b: depends on the coutnry and telco
Apr 07 06:48:51 <MokoN00b> in japan, 3g is so locked up that its hard to say what the use of it is
Apr 07 06:48:55 <raster> i know in .au they dont restrict internet over 3g at all
Apr 07 06:48:59 <raster> its "whatever you want"
Apr 07 06:49:00 <raster> BUT
Apr 07 06:49:06 <raster> you get limits
Apr 07 06:49:13 <MokoN00b> nobody i asked had full internet access on their phone
Apr 07 06:49:14 <raster> eg 1gb or 2 or 4 or 6gb/month
Apr 07 06:49:20 <raster> and you pay more for the xfer cap
Apr 07 06:49:23 <MokoN00b> but, at home, i had had it for years
Apr 07 06:49:29 <raster> in the us for4 example they may offer "unlimited"
Apr 07 06:49:32 <raster> but that comes with gotchas
Apr 07 06:49:36 <fredrin> here it's hard to even get gprs on a prepaid sim card
Apr 07 06:49:36 <raster> they limit what you can do and how
Apr 07 06:49:46 <raster> and thats how they make sure you "Feel" linke you got a good deal
Apr 07 06:49:53 <raster> but actually end up restricted anyway
Apr 07 06:49:59 <MokoN00b> prepaid sim cards always seem to not allow gprs
Apr 07 06:49:59 <raster> so at least here the telcos are up front
Apr 07 06:50:09 <MokoN00b> i dont understand why, though
Apr 07 06:50:19 <MokoN00b> you would pay more often if you used it faster
Apr 07 06:50:24 <fredrin> just pay for the data on the internet 
Apr 07 06:50:30 <raster> "you get N gb of data for $X in a month. use more and you pay $Y/mb. otherwise. do whatever you like{"
Apr 07 06:50:32 <methril|work> good morning
Apr 07 06:51:00 <MokoN00b> yeah, thats usually the deal
Apr 07 06:51:15 <MokoN00b> "unlimited" is more like "less limited"
Apr 07 06:51:24 <MokoN00b> or less expensive per bit
Apr 07 06:51:39 <ruskie> I actually have unlimited here... costs 16eur/month...
Apr 07 06:51:53 <ruskie> of course they block all incoming ports so it's still not truelly unlimited but no hidden costs
Apr 07 06:52:13 <raster> ruskie:  but hidden restrictions
Apr 07 06:52:13 <Shlee> raster: Yes, I'm not limited, I could download torrents on public transport. but I would quickly get another $700 bill from Virgin Australia
Apr 07 06:52:32 <fredrin> can one use vpn over gprs? 
Apr 07 06:52:40 <raster> Shlee: yup. you just end up paying for the access
Apr 07 06:52:48 <raster> of course every few mojnths i see the price of 3g data going down
Apr 07 06:53:04 <raster> what 12 months ago was $70 for 6gb/mo now is $40
Apr 07 06:53:07 <ruskie> raster, erm... I can use it for whatever I want
Apr 07 06:53:19 <ruskie> but yeah... blocked incoming ports are annoying
Apr 07 06:53:19 <fredrin> Shlee: just remote control torrents 
Apr 07 06:53:35 <raster> eventually it will get to a point "thats more data than i could ever realistically use in a month.. screw it. i'll pay $20 for 50gb"
Apr 07 06:53:36 <raster> :)
Apr 07 06:53:41 <ruskie> raster, but then I'm from Slovenia - Europe...
Apr 07 06:53:48 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:53:52 <raster> ruskie:  cant use it for.. incoming traffic
Apr 07 06:53:54 <raster> thus
Apr 07 06:54:00 <raster> not "whatever you want" :)
Apr 07 06:54:04 <ruskie> need to hit them about that still
Apr 07 06:54:06 <MokoN00b> then again, thats the point of changing cellphone specs
Apr 07 06:54:13 <ruskie> to see if I can get it opened
Apr 07 06:54:19 <MokoN00b> now that you can afford it -- how much data do you want?
Apr 07 06:54:45 <MokoN00b> and what services do you want to enable that were previously cost prohibitive?
Apr 07 06:54:57 <MokoN00b> or even speed prohibitive?
Apr 07 06:55:48 <MokoN00b> so, what kind of processor were you thinking of putting in your phone?
Apr 07 06:55:59 <ruskie> though what I really want from a phone is: linux powered, does calls+sms, can do 3g+wifi+bt+irda, has call recording and call blocking(per number and such), has a way to link 3g<->wifi so that one can use the phone as a wifi AP...
Apr 07 06:56:17 <ruskie> that's really all I need it for
Apr 07 06:56:28 <ruskie> basically self-powered 3g modem ;)
Apr 07 06:57:15 <MokoN00b> call blocking per number would rock
Apr 07 06:57:16 <Shlee> ruskie: iPhone?
Apr 07 06:57:28 <Shlee> -irda
Apr 07 06:57:40 <raster> MokoN00b: my home adsl is with iinet. i get 100gb/mo (20mbit). i barely use half of that.. and i gave up caring what i do how how. i just do whatever i do.
Apr 07 06:57:42 <MokoN00b> i would buy an iphone if i could flash it
Apr 07 06:57:48 <MokoN00b> the hardware is nice
Apr 07 06:57:58 <fredrin> ruskie: it should have a cam as well
Apr 07 06:57:58 <raster> unlike some i dont spend my time torrenting pirated movies or music
Apr 07 06:58:03 <ruskie> anyone know if it would be possible to power a usb device from a battery pack while still have it plugged in and communicating with the host?
Apr 07 06:58:06 <raster> so perhaps i'm unusual"
Apr 07 06:58:11 <ruskie> fredrin, I don't need a cam... I have a DSLR for that...
Apr 07 06:58:11 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 06:58:17 <Shlee> Meh, the world needs to remove $/MB restrictions because thats balls
Apr 07 06:58:18 <fredrin> but 3g is not super important if you have good wifi 
Apr 07 06:58:29 <MokoN00b> i dont think about bandwidth to my house
Apr 07 06:58:37 <fredrin> you just need to be connected when you're roaming
Apr 07 06:58:37 <raster> but the xfer cap is sane and its meant to discourage abuse of the isp's network by the small percentage of users who gobble up 50%+ of the network
Apr 07 06:58:59 <fredrin> that's the hard part, but gprs is the most important
Apr 07 06:59:00 <ruskie> how is it abuse if they pay for it?
Apr 07 06:59:19 <raster> MokoN00b:  as for cpu - i was planning on the omap3530
Apr 07 06:59:20 <ruskie> if I pay for such and such service and use such and such service... how is that abuse?
Apr 07 06:59:26 <raster> either 128 or maybe 256m ram
Apr 07 06:59:32 <raster> dpeending whihc pop is easiest tro get
Apr 07 06:59:38 <raster> flash is only for rescue os
Apr 07 06:59:41 <raster> 2x micro-sd slots
Apr 07 06:59:45 <husku> fredrin: phone is something thats supposed to be "on the go", wifi is not everywhere, even in city centres there are only few open hotspots.
Apr 07 06:59:52 <raster> phone would probably come with a 1gb micro-sd for the rootfs
Apr 07 06:59:55 <Wonka> hm...
Apr 07 06:59:58 <raster> plug in a bigger one for a rootfs upgrade
Apr 07 07:00:05 <raster> and an external microsd for data
Apr 07 07:00:08 <raster> so u have 2 micro-sd's there
Apr 07 07:00:19 <Wonka> currently, i pay 10EUR a month, get 200MB for that, any extra MB is 0.50 EUR
Apr 07 07:00:31 <husku> fredrin: also, nice point would be the new finnish law which prohibits connections to open wlans if you dont have permissions from the owner.
Apr 07 07:00:33 <raster> so thats currently a max of 32gb of storage possible
Apr 07 07:01:04 <Wonka> i could upgrade to 25EUR for a "flatrate" - which after the first GB of the month is throttled to GPRS speed
Apr 07 07:01:20 <raster> ruskie:  its abuse - if you pay a same flat rate. ie person A pays $50 and uses 1g/month
Apr 07 07:01:25 <Wonka> (which doesn't affect me atm, because the FR doesn't do more anyways)
Apr 07 07:01:31 <raster> person b pays $50 and uses 1tb/month
Apr 07 07:01:42 <MokoN00b> i asked the openmoko developers this before, but im not sure if they understood my question:  why not keep the primary OS on an (micro)SD card and only use an internal image as an emergency backup?
Apr 07 07:01:43 <raster> so the isp publically sets what they believe is reasonable
Apr 07 07:01:46 <raster> a data xfer cap
Apr 07 07:01:56 <fredrin> i bet the phone companies make more than enough money
Apr 07 07:02:13 <raster> they say "we believe N gb/mo is reasonable. if you want more than that - you can pay more and get more. you pay for an upgraded level of service"
Apr 07 07:02:13 <ruskie> raster, erm... if there is a cap then yes... if it's sold as unlimited then no it's not
Apr 07 07:02:23 <MokoN00b> so, the primary OS would be on a microsd, then
Apr 07 07:02:26 <raster> ruskie: nothing is sold unlimited here anymore
Apr 07 07:02:30 <ruskie> ahh
Apr 07 07:02:32 <fredrin> the world richest guy was a for a period a mexican that owns big telecos
Apr 07 07:02:33 <ruskie> around here it still is
Apr 07 07:02:36 <raster> they just publically say what is your cap
Apr 07 07:02:45 <Wonka> raster: here, you cannot pay more and get more, not unless you get them to make a special contract just for you
Apr 07 07:02:48 <raster> go over it ands they throttle you down to 64kbit
Apr 07 07:02:54 <raster> (so you dont pay more. you just get really slow)
Apr 07 07:03:17 <raster> MokoN00b: yes. primary os would be on standard ext2/3 on microsd
Apr 07 07:03:24 <Wonka> raster: and those will be unreasonable expensive
Apr 07 07:03:32 <raster> nand on the system is there in case your sd really messes up
Apr 07 07:03:39 <raster> and can boot into a rescue os in nand that can format a new sd
Apr 07 07:03:48 <raster> download a new rootfs image and write it out
Apr 07 07:03:51 <raster> thats the only thing in nand
Apr 07 07:03:57 <raster> a "rescue os"
Apr 07 07:04:16 <raster> Wonka: well then - they are not being reasonable
Apr 07 07:04:24 <MokoN00b> thats much cooler -- i would love to be able to switch OSes as the mood strikes
Apr 07 07:04:36 <MokoN00b> and here is the marketable bit:
Apr 07 07:04:39 <raster> at least here - there are limits and they tell you what they are and let you monitor your usage in detail... know where you stand and how much it costs to upgrade etc.
Apr 07 07:04:44 <Wonka> i thought OS would have been on microSD on "old" GTA03, so if you broke it, you could fix it externally...
Apr 07 07:04:58 <raster> MokoN00b: its on a microsd - you can swap the entire os in and out at  the change of an sd card
Apr 07 07:05:06 <Wonka> hm, i have yet to find the place to monitor my usage in detail...
Apr 07 07:05:07 <raster> as its an sd.. u can reflahs it.. on your pc
Apr 07 07:05:09 <MokoN00b> being able to switch OSes easily makes it so service providers can provide custom interfaces for users
Apr 07 07:05:13 <raster> so no special "tools" needed at all
Apr 07 07:05:26 <raster> Wonka:  yes. it was planned to be.
Apr 07 07:05:41 <raster> Wonka:  for me. toolbox.iinet.com.au
Apr 07 07:05:41 <MokoN00b> but it also allows for third party software vendors that would package and sell loaded SD cards for ordinary people
Apr 07 07:05:53 <raster> they provide a nice web ui with daily usage summaries and graphs
Apr 07 07:05:59 <MokoN00b> those same people who cant see the advantage in using linux
Apr 07 07:06:23 <ruskie> http://www.cradlepoint.com/products/phs300-personal-wifi-hotspot <-- hmm interesting...
Apr 07 07:06:48 <raster> u can check your usage history for preceeding days. and months, day by day
Apr 07 07:07:02 <raster> and its 'up to dTe" whenever you look - it doesnt take a day to tel lyou what your usage was
Apr 07 07:07:16 <raster> MokoN00b: yup.
Apr 07 07:07:24 <raster> MokoN00b: makes for a trivial "vertical market"
Apr 07 07:07:31 <raster> ie consulting companies, small business
Apr 07 07:07:31 <Wonka> raster: O2 Germany here...
Apr 07 07:07:35 <raster> or even telcos, shops
Apr 07 07:07:41 <raster> to sell the phone with a customised sd of their own
Apr 07 07:08:06 <MokoN00b> thats what im saying
Apr 07 07:08:22 <raster> hats what i like it
Apr 07 07:08:27 <MokoN00b> so, you could have like dell phones or something
Apr 07 07:08:31 <raster> also it means the fs is less complex
Apr 07 07:08:34 <raster> no fjjs2 stuff
Apr 07 07:08:37 <raster> jffs2
Apr 07 07:08:38 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 07:08:43 <raster> just normal ext3
Apr 07 07:08:51 <MokoN00b> well, ext2 probably
Apr 07 07:08:55 <raster> the sd card io on the omap3 is fast
Apr 07 07:09:00 <raster> i clock 16m/sec
Apr 07 07:09:02 <fredrin> ruskie: nice
Apr 07 07:09:09 <MokoN00b> yeah, nice
Apr 07 07:09:17 <raster> compared to about 2-3m/sec on the gta02's nand flash
Apr 07 07:09:27 <raster> boots are hyper-fast as its not io limited anymore
Apr 07 07:09:32 <raster> no need to decompress data too
Apr 07 07:09:34 <raster> (like jffs2)
Apr 07 07:09:39 <raster> and rebuild from logs
Apr 07 07:09:45 <MokoN00b> would it be impossible to have a normal headset jack on there?
Apr 07 07:09:47 <fredrin> if the Neo wifi driver could be a AP too it could maybe do the job with a usb 3g dongle, not sure
Apr 07 07:09:48 <raster> trivial to fix and mount from a pc
Apr 07 07:10:00 <MokoN00b> like the E6?
Apr 07 07:10:07 <raster> MokoN00b: that bottom of the phone has a 3.5mm headest hack
Apr 07 07:10:38 <MokoN00b> now im confused about which size is which
Apr 07 07:11:51 <raster> 3.5mm is standard headphone jack
Apr 07 07:12:07 <raster> it also should have mic on it too with an extra ring - but that makes it normal headset compatible
Apr 07 07:12:31 <MokoN00b> kewl
Apr 07 07:12:38 <MokoN00b> because most phones have a smaller one
Apr 07 07:12:45 <raster> yes
Apr 07 07:14:56 <MokoN00b> for the speed of the processor, what would you compare it to?
Apr 07 07:16:25 <MokoN00b> interesting idea
Apr 07 07:16:42 <MokoN00b> so, you but a microphone plug in the base station
Apr 07 07:16:56 <MokoN00b> that way stereo could easily be exported
Apr 07 07:17:13 <MokoN00b> or even both the speakers and the mic
Apr 07 07:17:28 <raster> MokoN00b: compare in what way?
Apr 07 07:17:34 <MokoN00b> i dont 
Apr 07 07:17:38 <MokoN00b> oops
Apr 07 07:17:40 <MokoN00b> i dont know
Apr 07 07:17:52 <MokoN00b> with some desktop processor based on performance
Apr 07 07:18:00 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 07 07:18:02 <raster> MokoN00b: and yes - same kind of 3.5mm plug arrangement motorola used in the rokr. has both headphone and mic ont he same plug
Apr 07 07:18:13 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 07:18:17 <raster> as for speed
Apr 07 07:18:23 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 07:18:33 <raster> a 600mhz omap3 is about the speed of a 1ghz via eden cpu
Apr 07 07:18:45 <MokoN00b> i figure the motorola phones are like a computer from the late 90s
Apr 07 07:19:03 <MokoN00b> thats pretty fast
Apr 07 07:19:08 <raster> yes
Apr 07 07:19:13 <MokoN00b> i like your phone
Apr 07 07:19:14 <raster> thus why i say .. it will be expensive
Apr 07 07:19:18 <MokoN00b> when can i get one?
Apr 07 07:19:20 <raster> but you will get a lot of bang for your buck
Apr 07 07:19:29 <MokoN00b> i would pay US$800 for that
Apr 07 07:19:29 <raster> its a fast little sucker
Apr 07 07:19:46 <raster> in addition the cradle/base stattion has a breakout to a hdmi/dvi plug
Apr 07 07:19:51 <raster> and powered usb hub
Apr 07 07:20:00 <raster> u can plug in monitors, keyboiard and mouse
Apr 07 07:20:04 <raster> and it is.. a low-powered desktop
Apr 07 07:20:13 <MokoN00b> could the HDMI be optional?
Apr 07 07:20:27 <MokoN00b> thats what i was thinking about the future of phones
Apr 07 07:20:38 <MokoN00b> it would be nice to come home and plug it in
Apr 07 07:20:46 <MokoN00b> and just have my desktop on the phone
Apr 07 07:21:00 <MokoN00b> now _that_ would be a smart phone
Apr 07 07:21:23 <raster> you mean remove it?
Apr 07 07:21:29 <raster> it comes kind of fro free
Apr 07 07:21:34 <raster> the cpu is capable of high res display
Apr 07 07:21:40 <raster> 720p is not a problem
Apr 07 07:21:41 <MokoN00b> oh
Apr 07 07:21:52 <raster> its been driven upto 1920x1080
Apr 07 07:21:55 <raster> it can already do it
Apr 07 07:22:00 <MokoN00b> i thought there was some sort of HDMI chip or something
Apr 07 07:22:13 <raster> all you need is to have a dvi framer chip (that takes lcd signals and converts to dvi signal frames)
Apr 07 07:22:20 <raster> its just a signal converter
Apr 07 07:22:24 <raster> thats all
Apr 07 07:22:27 <MokoN00b> DVI is good, though
Apr 07 07:22:30 <raster> really small and cheap
Apr 07 07:22:35 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 07:22:42 <raster> beagleboard/overa already do this
Apr 07 07:22:47 <raster> much cheaper than including an lcd
Apr 07 07:22:48 <raster> :)
Apr 07 07:23:06 <raster> and thats half the point
Apr 07 07:23:15 <raster> its a phone thats fast enough to be a "netbook"
Apr 07 07:23:22 <MokoN00b> so, you can already have a PC in your pocket
Apr 07 07:23:24 <raster> but in and of itself its a fraction of the size of a netbook
Apr 07 07:23:28 <MokoN00b> just not with an LCD
Apr 07 07:23:32 <raster> with 2g or 3g "on the go" data
Apr 07 07:23:34 <MokoN00b> or touch screen
Apr 07 07:23:48 <raster> and to make it a full opc - just add a big screen and kbd/mouse
Apr 07 07:23:50 <raster> done
Apr 07 07:24:01 <raster> chances are you will have that at your desk anyway
Apr 07 07:24:02 <MokoN00b> thats perfect
Apr 07 07:24:07 <MokoN00b> when can we get it?
Apr 07 07:24:15 <raster> and its much nicer to use a full sized kbd, mouse and decent 17" lcd
Apr 07 07:24:17 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 07:24:29 <raster> than stare into a tiny poke 7" or 8" lcd on a netbook with a tiny screen
Apr 07 07:24:39 <raster> when you are on the go - a netbook is just too big to go in a pocket
Apr 07 07:24:42 <raster> so u alweays need a bag for it
Apr 07 07:24:50 <hipitihop> raster: sorry, coming in late on this discussion, are you talking about an existing machine ?
Apr 07 07:25:06 <raster> and on the go - u are unlikely to do any serious typing - mostly bowsing/reading and minimal input
Apr 07 07:25:09 <MokoN00b> yes and no
Apr 07 07:25:20 <MokoN00b> there is a machine that does this without a screen
Apr 07 07:25:22 <raster> hipitihop:  unfortunately.. no. a "design idea"
Apr 07 07:25:28 <MokoN00b> he wants to add a screen
Apr 07 07:25:38 <raster> MokoN00b:  you canr read your morning email on the bus to work...
Apr 07 07:25:49 <MokoN00b> i can already do that
Apr 07 07:25:57 <MokoN00b> :)
Apr 07 07:26:04 <raster> if you lug a laptop along
Apr 07 07:26:05 <MokoN00b> in fact, i already read books on my phone
Apr 07 07:26:09 <raster> or use your current closed phone
Apr 07 07:26:10 <raster> :)
Apr 07 07:26:15 <MokoN00b> yeah
Apr 07 07:26:18 <hipitihop> what is the machine without the screen
Apr 07 07:26:21 <MokoN00b> i would like an open phone that does that
Apr 07 07:26:28 <MokoN00b> so, i can extend what it does
Apr 07 07:26:42 <raster> bingo
Apr 07 07:27:16 <MokoN00b> i hate it when i think of something new my computer or phone could do and i cant because the software doesnt let me
Apr 07 07:27:28 <MokoN00b> if its a hardware restriction, i can understand
Apr 07 07:27:50 <MokoN00b> but with software, why should i be constrained by someone else's limited imagination?
Apr 07 07:27:50 <gfather> raster i talked to TAsn , and it seems we gonna have arabic soon ;) 
Apr 07 07:29:13 <hipitihop> let me know when you guys are in production, I'll buy one immediately :-)
Apr 07 07:29:58 <beer_> is there a new phone coming?
Apr 07 07:30:28 <raster> MokoN00b: yup. thus open is good
Apr 07 07:30:46 <raster> beer_: being discussed. needs either one hell of a big customer to say "i want to buy it now"
Apr 07 07:31:01 <raster> and in addtion... needs a small mountain of money
Apr 07 07:31:16 <raster> you can have all the ideas u like
Apr 07 07:31:18 <raster> even do designs
Apr 07 07:31:22 <raster> and have prototypes working
Apr 07 07:31:35 <raster> the problem comes when you want to actually make something u can ship in a box that will work
Apr 07 07:32:23 <raster> gfather: i hope composition can work
Apr 07 07:32:37 <gfather> yes me to :) 
Apr 07 07:33:01 <gfather> raster if it works maybe we can localize full enlightment to 
Apr 07 07:33:46 <raster> chances are it will need more debugging over time
Apr 07 07:33:48 <raster> wont get some things right
Apr 07 07:33:50 <raster> but yes
Apr 07 07:34:05 <beer_> raster: I have a small mountain of money. Proberbly to small. But if a new and improved freerunner appears I wouold use that mountain of money on the phone
Apr 07 07:34:07 <raster> i'lll be entirely happy to have arabic hebrew and other rtl support "work"
Apr 07 07:34:10 <raster> i cant reads it
Apr 07 07:34:23 <raster> so all i will do is say "ooh! nice squiggles going right to left!"
Apr 07 07:34:24 <raster> :)
Apr 07 07:34:31 <gfather> :D
Apr 07 07:34:51 <raster> beer_: moiuntains i speak of are in the $ millions land :)
Apr 07 07:34:56 <raster> like double-digit millions
Apr 07 07:35:23 * SpeedEvil has a small mountain of money.
Apr 07 07:35:34 <SpeedEvil> Oh - my mistake, I was looking at it through my microscope again.
Apr 07 07:35:43 <gfather> :)
Apr 07 07:35:50 <raster> hahaha
Apr 07 07:36:58 <SpeedEvil> raster: on the mechanical design of the thing - you've essentially got the 'bulge' as a 2mm or so thick curved shell, not a blob? With the LCD at the top of the bulge?
Apr 07 07:37:59 <MokoN00b> beer_:  i think he means a VC mountain of money
Apr 07 07:38:11 <MokoN00b> are you ready to fund a production run?
Apr 07 07:38:13 <beer_> vc?
Apr 07 07:38:19 <SpeedEvil> venture capitalist
Apr 07 07:39:28 <beer_> maybe someone should start look for funds and vc to make a new phone without buzz
Apr 07 07:39:41 <SpeedEvil> without buzz is easy
Apr 07 07:39:47 <raster> SpeedEvil: yes. the shell is above/over the lcd
Apr 07 07:39:48 <MokoN00b> huh?
Apr 07 07:39:56 <SpeedEvil> the problem is without other major bug
Apr 07 07:39:58 <raster> and the lcd is just under the curve
Apr 07 07:40:01 <MokoN00b> isnt "with buzz" the only way anybody will know about it?
Apr 07 07:40:04 <raster> (inside the shell)
Apr 07 07:40:21 <raster> the curve allows the the lcd to be on top of the board at the front surface
Apr 07 07:40:47 <SpeedEvil> raster: with the LCD-> shell space being curved, or a flat spot on the shell, or filled with optical silicone or something?
Apr 07 07:40:53 <raster> beer_: dude. if u have vc friends... poke them
Apr 07 07:41:14 <raster> beer_:  thats the point. vc's are cliquey. you need an introduction - you need to be known by them to get their time of day
Apr 07 07:41:26 <lord-carlos> Hi there, i just got my OpenMoko today
Apr 07 07:41:57 <SpeedEvil> raster: as I make the distance - at the edge corners - assuming 1.5-2mm thick LCD, and .5mm gap, you don't have much room
Apr 07 07:42:01 <beer_> I know somebody but not in that huge amout of monye a new phone will cost
Apr 07 07:42:19 <beer_> it is more likly to be aroud 2000 doller-thing
Apr 07 07:42:42 <SpeedEvil> raster: as there is a lot of space in the middle, but not that much at the edges, due to the left and right sides touching the bulge
Apr 07 07:42:50 <raster> SpeedEvil:  it fits.. trust me. you dont see the other internals diagrams i did to make sure it fits
Apr 07 07:43:07 <SpeedEvil> raster: Ok - good - I really don't want stupids killing you :)
Apr 07 07:43:23 <raster> beer_: to actually get it into production will cost millions $
Apr 07 07:43:34 <MokoN00b> at least
Apr 07 07:43:43 <raster> SpeedEvil: yeah - i didnt do everything - but i did the major bulky components
Apr 07 07:43:59 <beer_> so we just need to find millions users who want to give away 1 doller :)
Apr 07 07:44:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: including the turboencabulator?
Apr 07 07:44:17 <raster> screen. main board (leave room for surface components) speaker/mic, connector units (headphone, usb, microsd) and battery.
Apr 07 07:44:24 <raster> hahahahah
Apr 07 07:44:41 <SpeedEvil> raster: vibrator? though those aren't that big nowadays
Apr 07 07:44:44 <raster> beer_: that would be possible only as a donation :(
Apr 07 07:44:55 <raster> SpeedEvil: i didnt put that in. but i left a lot of extra space
Apr 07 07:44:58 <raster> thats why its so tall
Apr 07 07:45:11 <SpeedEvil> raster: there are 'coin' ones
Apr 07 07:45:32 <raster> theres a big blob of blank i kleft going "well.. goint o have to have room for a daughterboard with a 2-3mm thick 2 or 3g module on top of it... and also space for other things"
Apr 07 07:45:35 <raster> like camera etc.
Apr 07 07:45:48 <SpeedEvil> http://www.tradeboss.com/default.cgi/action/viewtradeleads/tradeleadid/58622/subject/Sell_mobile_phone_micro_DC_coin_vibrator_motor_C1034_56L28/
Apr 07 07:45:51 <raster> so i hope i have breathing space
Apr 07 07:45:54 <raster> but the design is just that
Apr 07 07:45:55 <raster> a design
Apr 07 07:46:01 <SpeedEvil> though I've seen some a bit thinner
Apr 07 07:46:03 <raster> its more intended for me to use in documents pimping the idea
Apr 07 07:46:09 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Apr 07 07:46:11 <raster> so it just has to look sexy and look plausible
Apr 07 07:46:25 <SpeedEvil> cameras are available stupidly tiny for VGA
Apr 07 07:46:28 <raster> the curved screen - as a capactivie ts.. is possible
Apr 07 07:46:34 <raster> as i unbderstand the tech
Apr 07 07:46:39 <SpeedEvil> but it probably don't want to go too cheap
Apr 07 07:46:44 <raster> but may be expensive to set up production
Apr 07 07:46:44 <SpeedEvil> yoy
Apr 07 07:46:59 <SpeedEvil> A $20 camera is going to be a better match than $1 prolly
Apr 07 07:47:00 <raster> but.. for now i'll go with it
Apr 07 07:47:09 <raster> i understand that reality may require the curve to go and become flat
Apr 07 07:47:10 <raster> etc.
Apr 07 07:47:14 <raster> yeah
Apr 07 07:47:23 <raster> i9 was intending to find a camera with a LARGE lens
Apr 07 07:47:26 <raster> and ccd
Apr 07 07:47:28 <raster> not the mini ones
Apr 07 07:47:31 <raster> with auto-focus
Apr 07 07:47:38 <SpeedEvil> IMO - you're going the wrong way there.
Apr 07 07:47:40 <raster> so u'd need the mechanical actuators to change focus anyway
Apr 07 07:47:50 <raster> room for a bigger ccd and larger glass lens
Apr 07 07:47:58 <SpeedEvil> CMOS historically used to be horrible
Apr 07 07:48:01 <raster> something closer to a "lowend/cheap compact camera"
Apr 07 07:48:23 <SpeedEvil> The problem there is you need a _lot_ of depth for a 'proper' camera
Apr 07 07:48:33 <raster> i know
Apr 07 07:48:35 <SpeedEvil> Some of the 'high end' mobile phone cameras aren't that bad
Apr 07 07:48:39 <raster> i have about 10mm
Apr 07 07:48:52 <raster> i was hoping to find something cecent within that
Apr 07 07:49:31 <SpeedEvil> You get - forex - 10*10*4mm 1.3MP autofocus camera modules.
Apr 07 07:49:52 <SpeedEvil> Though I haven't been looking at the high end
Apr 07 07:49:53 <raster> yeah - 10mm distance from other side of main pcb to back of case
Apr 07 07:50:06 <SpeedEvil> I've been looking at 0.3-2MP or so for another project.
Apr 07 07:50:12 <raster> aaah ok
Apr 07 07:50:18 <raster> well i was thinking about3mp
Apr 07 07:50:31 <raster> but focos in the lens having a wide aperture for good light capture
Apr 07 07:50:38 <raster> and non-fixed-focus
Apr 07 07:50:45 <SpeedEvil> But generally - CMOS and CCD isn't the point today. CMOS cameras can have multi-second shutter times now, and quite low noise.
Apr 07 07:50:50 <raster> (electrically controllable focus/zoom)
Apr 07 07:51:09 <SpeedEvil> you mean analog optical zoom?
Apr 07 07:51:15 <raster> the problem is mostly ccd size for image quality
Apr 07 07:51:15 <SpeedEvil> that adds a _lot_ of complexity.
Apr 07 07:51:22 <raster> a tiny physical ccd will always suck
Apr 07 07:51:32 <raster> and large lens aperture and quality lens optics
Apr 07 07:51:40 <raster> yup
Apr 07 07:51:41 <SpeedEvil> raster: low-light performance really
Apr 07 07:51:42 <raster> non-digital zoom
Apr 07 07:51:46 <raster> if it can be found
Apr 07 07:51:49 <raster> but frankly...
Apr 07 07:52:01 <raster> i am more than willing to juist "get the best thing that fits at a good price"
Apr 07 07:52:01 <SpeedEvil> http://www.framos.eu/news.html?&L=1&p=98
Apr 07 07:52:04 <Wonka> 6mpixel.org
Apr 07 07:52:04 <SpeedEvil> just use that.
Apr 07 07:52:06 <raster> i have things i'd like
Apr 07 07:52:11 <raster> but its a phone
Apr 07 07:52:30 <raster> its not going to ever replace a dslr.. without being the size of a dslr
Apr 07 07:52:36 <Wonka> the Siemens S65's cam (1.3mpix) is unusable
Apr 07 07:52:38 <SpeedEvil> pretty much.
Apr 07 07:52:54 <Wonka> you cannot even snap some price tag in a shop - won't be readable
Apr 07 07:53:07 <SpeedEvil> Optical cameras ratings are an utter bitch.
Apr 07 07:53:09 <Wonka> either sharp - then too far away
Apr 07 07:53:19 <Wonka> or close enough - then blurry
Apr 07 07:53:26 <raster> SpeedEvil: hhahahhaa... thats.. a bit big :)
Apr 07 07:53:48 <Wonka> heh
Apr 07 07:54:15 <SpeedEvil> You've got units like 'minimum 5 lux, with a 16dB SNR, with a F2 lens pointed at a blank pattern box, illuminated with a 3200K tungsten bulb'
Apr 07 07:54:37 <SpeedEvil> And the other maker quotes mw/cm^2 at the sensor head
Apr 07 07:55:08 <Wonka> http://groups.google.com/group/de.alt.netdigest/browse_thread/thread/56f0471898806c27/4f642430a2c614b3?lnk=gst&q=Kamera#4f642430a2c614b3
Apr 07 07:55:33 <Wonka> someone asking for a digicam with integrated phone and gets handed some links
Apr 07 07:55:57 <Wonka> a DSLR, a cheap&simple feature phone and a roll of double-sided tape
Apr 07 07:56:01 <SpeedEvil> Oh - another annoyance. Camera modules and CCDs never seem to have part numbers on.
Apr 07 07:57:00 * SpeedEvil is also looking at openstreetview - which is fun.
Apr 07 07:57:22 <SpeedEvil> ~200G for a small town. 
Apr 07 07:58:48 <Wonka> wtv?
Apr 07 07:58:51 <Wonka> wtf, even
Apr 07 07:58:55 <SpeedEvil> Oh - not to mention the missing datasheets.
Apr 07 07:59:06 <SpeedEvil> Wonka: making - it's not an extant project
Apr 07 07:59:15 <raster> never expect a tiny ccd with a tiny lends on the back of a phone to get close to any digicam
Apr 07 07:59:27 <raster> but it should be decent enough to take snaps of "stuff you see"
Apr 07 07:59:32 <raster> and people sfaces for your phonebook
Apr 07 07:59:34 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure about 'never'
Apr 07 07:59:55 <raster> SpeedEvil: well unless it beocmes the size of a digicam :)
Apr 07 08:00:00 <SpeedEvil> With one of TIs impactron CCDs, and appropriate module design, it could be pretty good.
Apr 07 08:00:03 <raster> and i mean dslr end of cams
Apr 07 08:00:08 <SpeedEvil> But, those are _stupid_ money
Apr 07 08:00:24 <raster> the really really low end of happy snap digi cams has already been invaded by phones
Apr 07 08:00:29 <SpeedEvil> that'd get you about 3 orders of magnitude more sensitivity for the same sensor size.
Apr 07 08:00:32 <raster> literally using the lenses/camera units from them
Apr 07 08:00:39 <raster> but then u have a cam.. that can make calls
Apr 07 08:00:40 <raster> :)
Apr 07 08:01:46 <SpeedEvil> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/13092/vb6850.htm is maybe an example of one of the slightly better ones.
Apr 07 08:02:00 <SpeedEvil> (but TI won't sell those for under silly money)
Apr 07 08:02:22 <SpeedEvil> Also - CMOS chips can have onboard stuff easily - meaning you don't need external A/D - or in some cases jpeg compressor
Apr 07 08:02:22 <Wonka> there are some sony cybershot _phones_, iirc
Apr 07 08:02:46 <SpeedEvil> Wonka: lots of the problems go away if you make a million (that you can share the camera between)
Apr 07 08:03:24 <Wonka> SpeedEvil: i know, but to name a f***ing phone like it was a camera...
Apr 07 08:04:12 <raster> silly money!
Apr 07 08:04:38 <SpeedEvil> custom lenses are more joy :)
Apr 07 08:04:52 <SpeedEvil> They make you wish for the inexpensive land of 8 layer PCBs.
Apr 07 08:05:53 <raster> hahahaha
Apr 07 08:06:55 * SpeedEvil has ground lenses - fun.
Apr 07 08:07:07 <SpeedEvil> It is actually quite simple to do at home.
Apr 07 08:07:11 <SpeedEvil> Though coating isn't
Apr 07 08:08:26 * SpeedEvil looks at his un-hooked-up vacuum pump.
Apr 07 08:11:22 <MokoN00b> gotta go
Apr 07 08:11:27 <MokoN00b> see you all
Apr 07 08:12:31 * SpeedEvil has to go to a passport interview today. 
Apr 07 08:12:55 <SpeedEvil> Don't actually need a passport, but need a driving license, which due to real-life stuff hasn't been done by now.
Apr 07 08:18:01 <raster> SpeedEvil:  no passport or license?
Apr 07 08:20:38 <SpeedEvil> raster: both
Apr 07 08:20:46 <SpeedEvil> raster: require passport to get driving license (now)
Apr 07 08:22:49 <raster> SpeedEvil: eek! how... did that happen?
Apr 07 08:23:09 <raster> i have 2 passports and a license... and i have never had less than that.
Apr 07 08:28:14 <SpeedEvil> raster: broadly - illness, and being unable to work, and not having my own car till now. 
Apr 07 08:28:36 * SpeedEvil has just organised ashes-scattering ceremony for mum on sunday :/
Apr 07 08:28:45 <SpeedEvil> Not the way I'd wanted to get a car.
Apr 07 08:29:05 <raster> SpeedEvil: ooooh. i see. so a lot of shit hitting the fan at once
Apr 07 08:29:12 <SpeedEvil> pretty much.
Apr 07 08:29:12 <raster> :(
Apr 07 08:29:18 <SpeedEvil> Just using IRC to decompress some.
Apr 07 08:29:19 <raster> sorry to hear that man
Apr 07 08:29:28 <raster> my condolences 
Apr 07 08:29:32 <SpeedEvil> On that note - don't leave stuff unsaid. Thanks.
Apr 07 08:29:33 <raster> decompress man
Apr 07 08:29:45 <raster> actually sinky yourself into something to get your mind off things
Apr 07 08:29:51 <raster> like code or a hw project
Apr 07 08:29:52 <SpeedEvil> been doing that. 
Apr 07 08:30:04 <raster> something to.. occupy those idle braincells.
Apr 07 08:30:18 <SpeedEvil> Have maybe 500m^2 of garden that have been left for a year - and I need to put into some sane state.
Apr 07 08:30:27 <raster> jaz
Apr 07 08:30:28 <SpeedEvil> Also I need to finish the house insulation.
Apr 07 08:30:32 <raster> mow that lawn
Apr 07 08:30:34 <raster> and... fix it
Apr 07 08:30:47 <raster> it will give you some sense of satisfaction and positive things happening
Apr 07 08:30:47 <SpeedEvil> the lawn is the really, really easy part.
Apr 07 08:31:01 <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/ - some pics
Apr 07 08:31:09 <raster> my parents are still alive - thank god
Apr 07 08:31:20 <SpeedEvil> I'm hoping to keep it up.
Apr 07 08:31:23 <raster> buti just dont want to think of them dying. it just isnt something i'd want to face
Apr 07 08:31:30 <raster> i probably will get over it and march on
Apr 07 08:31:36 <raster> but it wont make for a happy bit of my life
Apr 07 08:31:43 <raster> so i can kind of empathise
Apr 07 08:32:06 <raster> my dad was an alcoholice for years - he's absused himself to the point where i accepted he'd die young-ish anyway
Apr 07 08:32:10 <SpeedEvil> In some ways - yes - in other ways - she diddn't have good pain control at home - it's a horrid decision.
Apr 07 08:32:28 <raster> amazingly he's still tottering on @ 68
Apr 07 08:32:49 <raster> hmm
Apr 07 08:32:54 <raster> well my sympathies man
Apr 07 08:32:56 <SpeedEvil> The pond in that site - 6' deep - she dug herself with spade+barrow - and built the gazebo, and cast the lantern, and ...
Apr 07 08:33:09 <raster> i can empathise a bit (grandma died a few years back)
Apr 07 08:33:24 <mickeyl> sorry to hear that SpeedEvil, all the best.
Apr 07 08:33:29 <raster> hmm so what was wrong?
Apr 07 08:33:31 <SpeedEvil> mickeyl: many thanks.
Apr 07 08:33:33 <raster> ahtritis?
Apr 07 08:33:35 <raster> or worse?
Apr 07 08:33:50 <SpeedEvil> raster: cancer - they thought they'd caught it, but it carried spreading.
Apr 07 08:34:31 <methril|work> SpeedEvil: all the best too
Apr 07 08:34:33 <raster> oooh cancer. i see now. :( well at least she had warning and got to "get stuff done"
Apr 07 08:34:40 <SpeedEvil> As you can see - the garden is somewhat of a challenge.
Apr 07 08:34:44 <raster> as opposed to suddenly going without notice
Apr 07 08:34:48 <SpeedEvil> raster: not really - she was that sort anyway :)
Apr 07 08:40:40 <raster> SpeedEvil:  well all the best man. i hope things are on the up for you from now on.
Apr 07 08:40:46 <SpeedEvil> Hope so.
Apr 07 08:41:07 <husku> SpeedEvil: my condolences also.
Apr 07 08:41:18 <SpeedEvil> Annoying aspect is that I'll have little hacking cash - as the limited available is going on silly stuff like 20 tons of gravel :/
Apr 07 08:41:30 <SpeedEvil> husku: thanks
Apr 07 08:50:05 <fredrin> SpeedEvil: sorry man, cancer stupid shit
Apr 07 09:05:12 <lord-carlos> hi, i just got my OpenMoko today. When i try to update it, i get some errors: http://cxg.de/?id=CiztmFWuLbRQBZn
Apr 07 09:05:37 <ndnihil> that's normal
Apr 07 09:05:39 <raster> SpeedEvil: hacking gravel!
Apr 07 09:05:53 <lord-carlos> looks like i need to fixsome /etc/opkg/* files
Apr 07 09:05:55 <lord-carlos> mkey
Apr 07 09:06:08 <SpeedEvil> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=56.216825~-3.112191&style=h&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&cid=21859B3B4291165F!111&encType=1
Apr 07 09:06:13 <ndnihil> ideally you'll probably want to flash a new image to it
Apr 07 09:06:21 <SpeedEvil> - to be gravelled area - as you can see - the garden has lots of stuff :)
Apr 07 09:06:30 <lord-carlos> yes, maybe later
Apr 07 09:06:55 <lord-carlos> is there a list of software for this image?
Apr 07 09:07:09 <lord-carlos> the grafic installer wont work 
Apr 07 09:08:15 <ndnihil> have you checked the wiki for updated pkg lists?
Apr 07 09:09:00 <lord-carlos> nope
Apr 07 09:09:39 <ndnihil> wiki is the first place to start
Apr 07 09:13:54 <ndnihil> ugh, python is icky
Apr 07 09:15:00 <lord-carlos> mh, so i need to flash the Moko to get the new 2008.12 OS?
Apr 07 09:15:16 <ndnihil> sounds about right
Apr 07 09:15:45 <ndnihil> I got mine about 1.5 weeks ago, had it out of the box less than an hour before flashing it
Apr 07 09:15:48 <ndnihil> it's pretty painless
Apr 07 09:16:01 <lord-carlos> i think i will try an other OS then
Apr 07 09:16:03 <ndnihil> and low risk of bricking it
Apr 07 09:16:29 <ndnihil> one thing you'll probably want to do, is upgrade the GSM firmware
Apr 07 09:16:53 <ndnihil> it fixes several bugs
Apr 07 09:18:24 <henk> and NOT use Om2008
Apr 07 09:19:15 <lord-carlos> i think i will try SHR
Apr 07 09:19:35 <ndnihil> good choice
Apr 07 09:19:44 <ndnihil> it seems to be the most active
Apr 07 09:19:57 <lord-carlos> is it a good idea to install the Qi bootloader?
Apr 07 09:20:03 <lord-carlos> or do i not need it?
Apr 07 09:20:04 <henk> yes
Apr 07 09:20:12 <ndnihil> eh, I've not bothered with it, but some people like it
Apr 07 09:20:18 <husku> is there any (software) way to see which gsm firmware im running?
Apr 07 09:20:42 <hipitihop> ndnihil: what do you recommend to get both sides of the call volume to be reasonable ?
Apr 07 09:20:56 <ndnihil> husku: modem information under settings
Apr 07 09:21:08 <husku> ndnihil: of course. should have checked that. thanks :)
Apr 07 09:21:09 <ndnihil> hipitihop: have both parties yell a lot
Apr 07 09:21:19 <hipitihop> ndnihil: rofl
Apr 07 09:21:20 <ndnihil> (I haven't had any call volume issues)
Apr 07 09:22:30 <hipitihop> ndnihil: well initial calls after install were totally silent until I found mixer setting was mute... now I can hear other party and they can hear me, but levels are low for both
Apr 07 09:22:51 <ndnihil> what dist?
Apr 07 09:23:10 <hipitihop> ndnihil: shr unstable April 6
Apr 07 09:23:57 <ndnihil> hrm, mixer settings maxed?
Apr 07 09:24:08 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * re927a1ec8855 10/fsogsmd/ (6 files in 3 dirs): fsogsm: move at command factor into modem; add more info to individual at commands
Apr 07 09:24:12 <Wonka> .oO( maxer settings mixed? )
Apr 07 09:24:32 <mickeyl> Wonka: weren't you the one who promised a kernel muxer?
Apr 07 09:24:42 <hipitihop> ndnihil: haven'tplayed nay further, simply turned off mute. looks like lots of options in mixer
Apr 07 09:24:42 <Wonka> mickeyl: never
Apr 07 09:24:46 <mickeyl> hmm, k
Apr 07 09:25:29 <Wonka> mickeyl: I'm more about GPS...
Apr 07 09:25:42 <mickeyl> ah, mixed you up then, sorry
Apr 07 09:25:48 <Wonka> np
Apr 07 09:25:49 <mickeyl> i think it was Writchie
Apr 07 09:25:55 <mickeyl> who promised a kernel muxer and then suddenly disappeared for good :D
Apr 07 09:25:59 <mickeyl> 1 year ago or so
Apr 07 09:26:03 <mickeyl> must have been a hard task
Apr 07 09:26:05 <mickeyl> *g*
Apr 07 09:26:53 <raster> hehhe
Apr 07 09:26:57 <raster> disappearing...
Apr 07 09:26:57 <axel> Hello! Today I've got my Freeruuner (date code: 20091016) but I can't enter the SIM PIN, as the keyboard to enter the pin doesn't show any numbers. Is there a quick way to enter the PIN?
Apr 07 09:27:00 <lord-carlos> So if i want to instal SHR i download NeoTools, on my computer, update the bootloader, update the kernel, update the root filesystem?
Apr 07 09:27:01 <raster> not... uncommon
Apr 07 09:27:16 <ndnihil> neotools?
Apr 07 09:27:19 <ndnihil> I used dfu-util
Apr 07 09:27:24 <ndnihil> to flash mine
Apr 07 09:27:36 <SpeedEvil> axel: IIRC drag from bottom to top or something to activate numbs
Apr 07 09:28:14 <axel> SpeedEvil: AH!!!!!!!! Thanks!
Apr 07 09:28:14 <lord-carlos> ndnihil: "NeoTool is a bash script for your desktop system to provide a friendly GUI frontend to some common management tasks, like for example flashing Openmoko smartphones."
Apr 07 09:28:25 <ndnihil> ah
Apr 07 09:31:53 * ndnihil is learning python
Apr 07 09:32:00 <ndnihil> and the more I learn, the more I wish it were perl instead
Apr 07 09:32:34 <mickeyl> why do you bother then?
Apr 07 09:32:40 <mickeyl> there's a gazillian of languages out there
Apr 07 09:32:44 <mickeyl> just pick one you like most
Apr 07 09:32:56 <ndnihil> yes, and python is the most prevalent and supported on the FR
Apr 07 09:32:58 <ndnihil> at least in SHR
Apr 07 09:33:16 <lord-carlos> some one know if i can use the dfu-util version from debian testing repo?
Apr 07 09:33:38 <ndnihil> depends on what kind of system you run I suppose
Apr 07 09:33:44 <ndnihil> do you run debian testing?
Apr 07 09:34:09 <lord-carlos> yes, i mean if the version from debian testing supports the open moko
Apr 07 09:34:22 <lord-carlos> Version: 0.0+r4880-1
Apr 07 09:34:42 <lord-carlos> ah, found something
Apr 07 09:34:45 <lord-carlos> should work
Apr 07 09:38:09 <rwhitby> Project B is an internet connected drink coaster
Apr 07 09:38:31 <rwhitby> but a square one, not a round one.
Apr 07 09:39:28 <henk> ndnihil: have a look at ruby?!
Apr 07 09:39:52 <rwhitby> a screen with three buttons on the front, and you can map the buttons to your favourite drinks, and it automatically tells the waitress what you bring next
Apr 07 09:39:53 <ndnihil> dont know that one off the top of my head either, it'd probably be equally as annoying as python
Apr 07 09:40:16 <ndnihil> I can read my position from GPS by way of dbus now
Apr 07 09:40:21 <SpeedEvil> rwhitby: a 1200*1400 LCD - 300DPI
Apr 07 09:40:32 <ndnihil> in py
Apr 07 09:40:48 <rwhitby> SpeedEvil: 22:56 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxI
Apr 07 09:41:07 <rwhitby> I expect it's the same screen as gta02
Apr 07 09:41:52 <rwhitby> hmm - maybe a super-duper universal remote control ...
Apr 07 09:41:56 <hipitihop> ndnihil: at the risk of a language flame war, do yourself a favour and look at newspeak, smalltalk, lisp or python
Apr 07 09:42:13 <ndnihil> heh, looking at python now
Apr 07 09:42:21 <ndnihil> lisp is for masochists
Apr 07 09:42:23 * mickeyl tosses Vala, C++, and C into the game
Apr 07 09:42:32 <ndnihil> yeah, I think I'll probably end up using C
Apr 07 09:42:46 <rwhitby> Project B - "B" for "Beer Coaster"
Apr 07 09:42:55 <SpeedEvil> Hmm
Apr 07 09:42:56 <ndnihil> but figured I should learn some py for broken stuff that I didn't write
Apr 07 09:42:59 <ndnihil> like sms-sentry
Apr 07 09:43:03 <mickeyl> although you might do yourself a favour if you look at Vala before.
Apr 07 09:43:13 <hipitihop> mickeyl: +1 for Vala and C is a given for low level, C++ an abomination
Apr 07 09:43:16 <mickeyl> that way you get C's speed _and_ have something that's more reeadable
Apr 07 09:43:33 <ndnihil> bah, what could be more readable than C? 
Apr 07 09:43:34 <ndnihil> :)
Apr 07 09:43:37 <mickeyl> *cough*
Apr 07 09:43:58 * hipitihop splatters coffee over keyboard
Apr 07 09:44:11 <rwhitby> Z80 assembly
Apr 07 09:44:14 <ndnihil> is vala scripted?
Apr 07 09:44:21 <mickeyl> FOO* TURN_THIS_INTO_A_FOO( this_is_some_weired_creation_method_since_we_are_turning_something_into_O_O_that_doesn_t_support_it() );
Apr 07 09:44:30 <mickeyl> *shrug*
Apr 07 09:44:31 <hipitihop> rwhitby: now we are talking :-)
Apr 07 09:44:42 <mickeyl> ndnihil: no, vala compiles to C.
Apr 07 09:45:00 <ndnihil> er, so it's a lib/api?
Apr 07 09:45:09 <mickeyl> no, it's a programming language
Apr 07 09:45:12 <mickeyl> that compiles to C.
Apr 07 09:45:20 <ndnihil> hrm
Apr 07 09:45:30 <mickeyl> remember Cfront?
Apr 07 09:45:30 <ndnihil> worth a look for entertainment value if nothing else
Apr 07 09:45:37 <ndnihil> vaguely, never used it though
Apr 07 09:45:41 <mickeyl> same idea
Apr 07 09:45:48 <mickeyl> high level language as preprocessor
Apr 07 09:46:33 <hipitihop> and squeak uses slang for its VM which also compiles to C
Apr 07 09:47:56 * hipitihop hides after going OT with language prefs
Apr 07 09:48:54 <ndnihil> heh, someone ported gcc, but not make
Apr 07 09:49:35 <ndnihil> unstable has it
Apr 07 09:51:02 * hipitihop notices shr does not auto suspend when no usb connected and periodically  flashed lcd backlight, could that be calypso reregistering ?
Apr 07 09:52:31 <SpeedEvil> rwhitby: 'we're sorry, this video is no longer available?' 
Apr 07 09:53:13 <SpeedEvil> ah - I'm having DNS problems
Apr 07 09:54:50 * hipitihop after trying Android and SHR, looks like time to go back to qt-extended and try -improved
Apr 07 10:27:08 <lord-carlos> mhh, after installing Qi, new kernel, and SHR, my computer can not find usb0 anymore
Apr 07 10:32:59 <axel> I can't log in to the Freerunner (date code: 20091016) via ssh. "ssh: connect to host 192.168.0.202 port 22: Connection refused". The Freerunner is pingable. I ecuted the ssh-command as well as with sudo a sudo -i.
Apr 07 10:43:14 <lord-carlos> ah, usb0 works egain
Apr 07 10:43:59 <jc> lord-carlos: congratulation.
Apr 07 10:45:04 <lord-carlos> thanks
Apr 07 10:51:47 <dns53> is there anything that you can do about the white screen of death?
Apr 07 10:56:17 <lindi-> dns53: it's symptom, there can be different causes
Apr 07 10:58:12 <dns53> anything apart from not suspending that works?
Apr 07 11:00:50 <lindi-> dns53: i haven't hit wsod
Apr 07 11:01:07 <lindi-> dns53: maybe it's a hardware difference?
Apr 07 11:01:40 <dns53> it may be, mine would have been in the first batch, they did make some hardware fixes in the later batches
Apr 07 11:02:05 <lindi-> dns53: better run your exact setup on some other phone to see
Apr 07 11:03:07 <dns53> well i've tried different uboot, qi, kernel, distro's and most have the problem
Apr 07 11:03:29 <lindi-> dns53: tried not running X?
Apr 07 11:04:11 <dns53> qtopia does not seem to have the problem so it is x and the kernel based
Apr 07 11:06:16 <badcloud> in shr-unstable: mplayer can play ringtone on command but there's no ringing on imcoming call? profile is set to default
Apr 07 11:06:32 <badcloud> *incoming
Apr 07 11:08:09 <badcloud> pidgin doesn't play sounds either
Apr 07 11:09:11 <lord-carlos> can pythm play mp3 files?
Apr 07 11:09:19 <badcloud> I think it has to do with some configuration between mplayer and the apps in question
Apr 07 11:10:26 <badcloud> lemme install pythm first
Apr 07 11:11:03 <dns53> there is a package that has shr ringtones, is it installed by default? i think it can atleast play oggs
Apr 07 11:11:07 <lord-carlos> SHR has it by default
Apr 07 11:11:23 <badcloud> segfault on install
Apr 07 11:11:26 <lord-carlos> i mean pythm is installed by default
Apr 07 11:11:35 <badcloud> can't see it
Apr 07 11:12:20 <badcloud> but mplayer plays oggs fine
Apr 07 11:13:42 <badcloud> I'm gonna reboot
Apr 07 11:14:15 <lord-carlos> is there an other app for connection to wifi? Becouse mofi does not work :(
Apr 07 11:14:53 <jc> lord-carlos: the one I know is mofi :(
Apr 07 11:14:57 <dns53> have you turned wifi on in the shr settings first? mofi does not turn it on
Apr 07 11:15:13 <lord-carlos> yes. But i will double check
Apr 07 11:18:48 <lord-carlos> mmh, on start up i get some erors, Unknown boot option, and something with hw ether and a mac adress
Apr 07 11:19:22 <henk> nothing to worry about afaik
Apr 07 11:20:01 <dent> lord-carlos: I see it too; yet it seems that sometimes I see it, sometimes I see different output, like 2n-th time I see it, 2n+1-th time I don't :)
Apr 07 11:20:17 <lord-carlos> hehe
Apr 07 11:20:21 <dent> i.e. alternating
Apr 07 11:21:07 <lord-carlos> oh, wifi was off again
Apr 07 11:21:58 <dent> lord-carlos: what happens if you press AUX?
Apr 07 11:22:08 <dent> it doesn't do anything for me... (used tolock the screen)
Apr 07 11:22:24 <lord-carlos> it gets locked
Apr 07 11:23:16 <dent> lucky you :)
Apr 07 11:23:22 <dent> what SHR are you running?
Apr 07 11:23:53 <lord-carlos> just instelled it
Apr 07 11:23:56 <lord-carlos> testing i think
Apr 07 11:24:07 <dent> hm, I'm on unstable
Apr 07 11:24:11 <lord-carlos> got my moko some hours ago
Apr 07 11:24:16 <lord-carlos> Mofi still dont work
Apr 07 11:24:31 <dent> it never worked for me... good old ifup/ifdown :)
Apr 07 11:24:57 <badcloud> reboot fixed it
Apr 07 11:25:48 <ndnihil> mofi looks like its hung when it doesnt find any APs
Apr 07 11:26:02 <ndnihil> and dont expect to find any unless they're real close
Apr 07 11:26:10 <lord-carlos> it finds them
Apr 07 11:26:15 <ndnihil> ah
Apr 07 11:26:26 <lord-carlos> but when i click on connect, its freezes
Apr 07 11:26:28 <ndnihil> then you have the same problem I do, wont connect?
Apr 07 11:26:30 <ndnihil> yeh
Apr 07 11:26:34 <lord-carlos> its a WPA network if its matters
Apr 07 11:26:39 <ndnihil> same here
Apr 07 11:26:42 <dent> same here
Apr 07 11:26:46 <lord-carlos> :(
Apr 07 11:26:47 <dent> but I never investigated...
Apr 07 11:26:55 <ndnihil> I see zero attempts in the AP logs for connection from the FR
Apr 07 11:26:58 <henk> lord-carlos: which kernel? which distribution?
Apr 07 11:27:00 <dent> I found it less painful to edit wpa_supplicant.conf
Apr 07 11:27:10 <ndnihil> and manually bringing it up doesnt work either
Apr 07 11:27:12 <lord-carlos> henk: SHR testing
Apr 07 11:27:22 <ndnihil> SHR testing here too
Apr 07 11:27:24 <lord-carlos> henk: dunno witch kernel. i am new to this
Apr 07 11:27:35 <axel> I can't log in to the Freerunner via ssh. Freerunner  date code: 20091016. "ssh: connect to host 192.168.0.202 port 22: Connection refused". The Freerunner is pingable. I executed the ssh-command as sudo a well as in a root shell (sudo -i). As I got the Freerunnter today, no changes have been made so far (As I could figure it aut it's running QT.).How can I connect via ssh then?
Apr 07 11:28:07 <ndnihil> axel: I dont think qt has ssh enabled by default
Apr 07 11:28:09 <lord-carlos> henk: this kernel → http://build.shr-project.org/shr-testing/images/om-gta02/uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin
Apr 07 11:28:17 <ndnihil> I couldnt connect to mine when it had qt on it either
Apr 07 11:28:55 <lord-carlos> no wifi :( That sucks 
Apr 07 11:29:52 <badcloud> lord-carlos, I'm using the same kernel on shr-unstable
Apr 07 11:30:15 <lord-carlos> badcloud: and Mofi works for you?
Apr 07 11:30:19 <badcloud> it took a second boot for wifi
Apr 07 11:30:34 <lord-carlos> this is my 2 or 3 boot
Apr 07 11:30:39 <valos[fr]> dent: if lock doesn't work with AUX, I think  you must bind AUX key to "Desktop -> Desktop Simple Lock" in e17 settings
Apr 07 11:31:00 <dent> valos[fr]: will try, thx
Apr 07 11:31:09 <badcloud> I see. I edit /etc/network/interfaces
Apr 07 11:31:21 <lord-carlos> Is there a list out there with softwere for opkg?
Apr 07 11:32:52 <badcloud> terminal command 'opkg list | more'
Apr 07 11:33:17 <lord-carlos> ok
Apr 07 11:34:04 <lord-carlos> someone know a good web browser for the moko?
Apr 07 11:34:18 <lord-carlos> or any other "must have" software for SHR?
Apr 07 11:34:21 <badcloud> you can see access points by using 'iwlist eth0 scan'
Apr 07 11:34:36 <badcloud> dillo, minimo
Apr 07 11:34:48 <valos[fr]> lord-carlos: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Browser_review
Apr 07 11:35:13 <lord-carlos> badcloud: yes i know. i can probably also connect with iwconfig ... but thats fucked up with only a tuchscreen
Apr 07 11:35:23 <lord-carlos> thanhs badcloud valos[fr]
Apr 07 11:35:28 <lord-carlos> *thanks
Apr 07 11:35:35 <dent> valos[fr]: oki, found it and it works, thx again :)
Apr 07 11:37:17 <badcloud> well, the way do it is to populate the ap list in /etc/network/interfaces, then comment/uncomment
Apr 07 11:37:52 <badcloud> *way I do it
Apr 07 11:40:05 <lord-carlos> "hey, can i borrow you phone? I just have to check my mails" "yes, you just need to edit the /etc/network/interfaces with vi and restart the networkmanager " ... 
Apr 07 11:41:06 <badcloud> then don't lend your phone out for emailchecking :)
Apr 07 11:42:36 <badcloud> plus, how often are you switching between ap's? you aren't Indiana Jones, are you?
Apr 07 11:43:56 <lord-carlos> home, university, friends .. sometime 3 on one day
Apr 07 11:46:15 <badcloud> that shouldn't be a big strain on your stylus
Apr 07 12:12:45 <lord-carlos> what programm do you guys use for mail?
Apr 07 12:12:57 <ndnihil> I use claws
Apr 07 12:13:10 <ndnihil> from the SHR unstable repository
Apr 07 12:13:10 <lindi-> lord-carlos: gnus
Apr 07 12:13:52 <badcloud> so is the 'plan B' device gonna be a landline phone?
Apr 07 12:14:04 <ndnihil> its an mp3 player
Apr 07 12:14:14 <ndnihil> that doubles as a bookmark
Apr 07 12:14:18 <badcloud> is that a fact
Apr 07 12:14:22 <ndnihil> no
Apr 07 12:14:25 <badcloud> ha
Apr 07 12:14:26 <ndnihil> completely made up in fact
Apr 07 12:14:30 <lord-carlos> ok thanks
Apr 07 12:14:37 <badcloud> (I figured)
Apr 07 12:16:30 <Mirrakor> which GPS chips is in the neo freerunner?
Apr 07 12:17:50 <badcloud> not too many big marketing interests to corner apart from portable media player and cell phone, is there?
Apr 07 12:18:11 <lindi-> Mirrakor: [[u-blox ANTARIS 4 ATR0635]] chip
Apr 07 12:18:29 <Mirrakor> lindi-: thx, I searched on the wiki, but couldn't find it(?!)
Apr 07 12:18:37 <lindi-> Mirrakor: data sheet http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf
Apr 07 12:18:59 <lindi-> Mirrakor: this is in Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware.ref.wiki
Apr 07 12:19:21 <lord-carlos> i just instelled SHR, and i already get an 404 on opkg update 
Apr 07 12:19:32 <lord-carlos> is that normal?
Apr 07 12:20:17 <Mirrakor> so the Freerunner GPS is equal to the GTA02 gps?
Apr 07 12:20:29 <ndnihil> freerunner = gta02
Apr 07 12:20:40 <ndnihil> so yes
Apr 07 12:20:41 <Dave> Moo
Apr 07 12:20:54 <ndnihil> hi dave
Apr 07 12:20:56 <ndnihil> moo indeed
Apr 07 12:21:15 <Dave> :]
Apr 07 12:21:21 <Mirrakor> moo
Apr 07 12:23:48 <lord-carlos> Can somebody help me with that error? : opkg install claws → An error ocurred, return value: -50512.
Apr 07 12:24:31 <badcloud> that just means that the package isn't listed
Apr 07 12:24:35 <ndnihil> wget <claws from unstable repository>
Apr 07 12:24:45 <ndnihil> opkg install <claws from unstable repository>
Apr 07 12:24:56 <ndnihil> then go get the lib(s) it complains about
Apr 07 12:25:02 <ndnihil> and install it again
Apr 07 12:25:34 <lord-carlos> ok
Apr 07 12:31:54 <Carlos-mob> openmoko irc test :-]
Apr 07 12:32:07 <axel> ndnihil: How to enable it?
Apr 07 12:32:23 <axel> ndnihil: SSH in QT?
Apr 07 12:32:41 <lord-carlos> on qukenet i get k-lined with the openmoko and pidgin
Apr 07 12:34:00 <badcloud> same for me on dalnet
Apr 07 12:36:03 <axel> How to activate the SSH server in qtopia?
Apr 07 12:36:36 <lord-carlos> axel: do you have an terminal in qtopia?
Apr 07 12:37:07 <lord-carlos> if yes, try something like /etc/init.d/ssh start  
Apr 07 12:39:06 <axel> lord-carlos: Thanks. But I don't see any possibility in Qtopia itself.
Apr 07 12:39:21 <axel> lord-carlos: to open a console.
Apr 07 12:55:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rdd4843b97c36 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: 
Apr 07 12:55:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: Revert "add null check for void returntypes"
Apr 07 12:55:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: This reverts commit e35b4711a9a2010a007b9ae3f0ba85f5b902a126.
Apr 07 12:55:46 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rde5398704c07 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: add null check for void returntypes
Apr 07 13:07:24 <ndnihil> is the DBus API spec at git.freesmartphone.org still valid?
Apr 07 13:09:41 <axel> How to connect to the internet with the Freerunner (OM2008) with the internet over Kubuntu (8.04) and without any ssh server installed on the freerunner?
Apr 07 13:09:58 <axel> There is no wifi network either.
Apr 07 13:10:24 <ndnihil> flash a more friendly image to your phone
Apr 07 13:10:53 <henk> axel: you ubuntu needs to play nat-router.
Apr 07 13:44:50 <ndnihil> a blank stare of awe and amazement to whoever can point me to the source for openmoko-messages
Apr 07 13:44:57 <ndnihil> 3
Apr 07 13:45:22 <ndnihil> all I've found is empty references to git repositories that dont exist
Apr 07 13:48:49 <lindi-> ndnihil: who distributed you the binary?
Apr 07 13:49:01 <ndnihil> came with shr-testing
Apr 07 13:49:15 <ndnihil> closest ive seen to sources for that is http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-testing/sources/
Apr 07 13:49:27 <ndnihil> but who the hell organizes packages by license?
Apr 07 13:49:39 <lindi-> ndnihil: organizes?
Apr 07 13:49:54 <ndnihil> yes
Apr 07 13:50:03 <ndnihil> mkdir LicenseName1
Apr 07 13:50:14 <ndnihil> mv packageswiththatlicence LicenseName1/
Apr 07 13:50:17 <ndnihil> etc...
Apr 07 13:50:57 <saracen> qte is actually really decent ;x
Apr 07 13:52:51 <ndnihil> and how about that
Apr 07 13:52:56 <ndnihil> looking through each and every dir
Apr 07 13:53:09 <ndnihil> no source for openmoko-messages3
Apr 07 13:55:21 <Sharwin_F-> ndnihil, you can find the sources here: git clone http://shr.bearstech.com/repo/shr.git
Apr 07 13:56:44 <ndnihil> many thanks
Apr 07 13:56:54 <ndnihil> and a blank stare of awe and amazement
Apr 07 13:56:57 <ndnihil> etc..
Apr 07 13:56:58 <ndnihil> :)
Apr 07 14:02:59 <dent> I was wondering... it's there something like "GPS-notepad"? I.e. something that would let me take notes + would record gps coordinates with them
Apr 07 14:03:09 <dent> either points, ro tracks + annotations on tracks
Apr 07 14:03:31 <dent> (I know I can log tracks with tangogps... but that is w/o any annotations afaik)
Apr 07 14:15:02 <max_posedon> dent, Can't you "emulate" it with specific POI?)
Apr 07 14:15:30 <dent> max_posedon? you mean something in tangogps? (don't knwo the app much)
Apr 07 14:16:15 <max_posedon> click->POI->add POI
Apr 07 14:16:51 <max_posedon> there you can add some text, and attach to specific point
Apr 07 14:17:14 <max_posedon> it isn't solution, just a kinda hack, which may be you find usefull.
Apr 07 14:19:36 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03ainulindale 07libframeworkd-glib * ra48aec549d95 10/src/ (13 files in 4 dirs): Added G_[BEGIN|END]_DECLS thanks to David Kozub.
Apr 07 14:23:59 <slaxxin> then if u click show poi   then it pops up on the map a  yellow marker
Apr 07 14:35:54 <lord-carlos> how do i install pas for tangogps?
Apr 07 14:35:58 <lord-carlos> *maps
Apr 07 14:38:42 <Weiss> lord-carlos: it should automatically download them if an internet connection is present
Apr 07 14:38:55 <Weiss> or you can use its "map download" function to pre-download stuff
Apr 07 14:39:44 <Weiss> however, tile.openstreetmap.org seems to be down.. :(
Apr 07 14:40:56 <lord-carlos> ok thanks
Apr 07 14:42:12 <slaxxin> if u dont have anything on your sdcard{ another os}  u can cause the maps to go on the sdcard
Apr 07 14:43:17 <Weiss> hmm, tile.osm back now, but slow...
Apr 07 14:45:56 <baba_melone> Hi
Apr 07 14:46:07 <baba_melone> Im trying to use navit on shr, but it doesnt start
Apr 07 14:46:29 <baba_melone> I get following messages in the console when trying and starting navit:
Apr 07 14:46:36 <baba_melone> navit:main:Using '/home/root/.navit/navit.xml'
Apr 07 14:46:38 <baba_melone> navit:main:No instance has been created, exiting
Apr 07 14:47:08 <baba_melone> Unfortunately these messages dont say anything useful for me
Apr 07 14:47:45 <baba_melone> Version is the latest svn
Apr 07 14:47:56 <baba_melone> 2189
Apr 07 14:52:04 <dent> max_posedon: thanks
Apr 07 14:52:21 <dent> still, I add "gps-notepad" to my ever-enlarging TODO list :)
Apr 07 14:52:26 <dent> maybe one day :)
Apr 07 14:54:43 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-abyss * r44a8dd760cdd 10/src/main.vala: catch error on shutdown
Apr 07 14:54:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-abyss * r6564f2678916 10/src/server.vala: 
Apr 07 14:54:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: fso-abyss: catch up with renaming the control class from Server to Manager in libgsm0710mux
Apr 07 14:54:45 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: thanks emfoxzhou for spotting!
Apr 07 15:15:04 <Dave> Leinir!
Apr 07 15:16:37 <leinir> *curtsies* Sir :)
Apr 07 15:16:53 <Dave> :)
Apr 07 15:16:58 * Dave pets Leinir
Apr 07 15:17:24 * leinir purrrs and leans into the pettings :)
Apr 07 15:19:11 <Dave> ;)
Apr 07 15:19:30 * Dave starts openvibe
Apr 07 15:22:49 <Dave> hahahaha
Apr 07 16:20:54 <Serdar> what kind of partitions do I need for multi-boot?
Apr 07 16:22:13 <joejoe> Serdar, look into documentation of your boot loader
Apr 07 16:22:20 <PaulFertser> gfather: Hey :) Do you already know about E RTL news?
Apr 07 16:22:39 <joejoe> Serdar, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot or http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi
Apr 07 16:35:42 <PaulFertser> gfather: ping TAsn to try his wip RTL support ;)
Apr 07 16:40:22 <PBeck> ahoi
Apr 07 16:41:31 <SpeedEvil> PBeck: have you heard the news? 'Project B' is in fact going to sell billions. OM have gone into partnership with the zeta reticulans, and one will be implanted in each and every human!
Apr 07 16:41:56 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: lol
Apr 07 16:42:33 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: the world will be renamed to mokoworld :P
Apr 07 16:42:55 <leinir> More seriously, i was guessing this morning that it was going to be a netbook type thing - something like the touchbook :)
Apr 07 16:43:08 <SpeedEvil> yeah.
Apr 07 16:43:14 <SpeedEvil> Tablet maybe
Apr 07 16:43:15 * leinir would get one ;)
Apr 07 16:43:30 <SpeedEvil> I can't see OM succeeding in tablet space though
Apr 07 16:43:33 <leinir> *nods* That's basically what the touchbook is - check it out if you don't know it already :) www.alwaysinnovating.com
Apr 07 16:43:35 <SpeedEvil> too many _way_ bigger players
Apr 07 16:43:58 <max_posedon> SpeedEvil, isn't OM have same dream before gta01?)
Apr 07 16:44:37 <lindi-> larsc: forgot to cc you, can you check http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/2263 ?
Apr 07 16:45:40 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: in which space then? :>
Apr 07 16:45:50 <SpeedEvil> PBeck: I have no idea
Apr 07 16:46:45 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: areospace? :P
Apr 07 16:47:19 <SpeedEvil> There are lots of plausible options that start 'Find a venture capitalist with $50m to fund development'
Apr 07 16:47:53 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: i hope the have success
Apr 07 16:47:56 <PBeck> *they
Apr 07 16:48:00 <SpeedEvil> What can be done with a teeny investment, ...
Apr 07 16:48:07 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: when its a usable device - i will buy it
Apr 07 16:48:27 <PBeck> not a the freerunner *scnr* :D
Apr 07 16:49:03 <PBeck> *as
Apr 07 16:49:23 <PBeck> ok the freeerunner will be usable in a few month - the optimal geek device :)
Apr 07 16:49:31 <leinir> Thing is, something like the touchbook would be vastly more useful to me than a phone, really...
Apr 07 16:50:25 <leinir> Really, the n900 (or whatever) is likely going to be the ultimate device for me - 3G chip so we have data and texting covered, and it specifically does /not/ do voice... which i don't much like anyway ;)
Apr 07 16:50:35 <PBeck> leinir: but in this segment are big global player :(
Apr 07 16:50:55 <PBeck> leinir: and i think it will not be cheap 
Apr 07 16:51:26 <leinir> PBeck: Yes, but if you've got a device that actually works well, which is something that never happened with the freerunner (let's face it)... then suddenly being open becomes a selling point :)
Apr 07 16:51:53 <leinir> If you've got something which doesn't really work, but which is open, then open won't sell it to anybody that isn't an evangelist :)
Apr 07 16:52:06 <PBeck> leinir: i hope that the freerunner will be usable in the future :(
Apr 07 16:52:19 <leinir> Well, so do i - i've got one ;)
Apr 07 16:52:31 <PBeck> leinir: yeah the next openmoko device should work - so i will buy one ;)
Apr 07 16:52:49 <leinir> *nods* :)
Apr 07 16:53:05 <PBeck> leinir: we brought it because the good promotion slogan :P
Apr 07 16:53:21 <PBeck> leinir: in 6 month ready :P
Apr 07 16:58:10 <PBeck> is project b in development or as new as the announcment?
Apr 07 16:58:37 <leinir> NO idea :)
Apr 07 17:21:22 <whilo> hi
Apr 07 17:21:57 <whilo> is it possible to connect an usb umts dongle to the usb port?
Apr 07 17:22:17 <whilo> one of course which has the correct driver in the linux kernel
Apr 07 17:22:32 <yamitenshi> hi, I'm trying to install Debian to an SD card, but after downloading cdebootstrap.deb, the install script fails saying it can't validate Packages and Release. I've tried different mirrors, but that only results in not being able to download the package at all. Any suggestions on what i could do?
Apr 07 17:22:47 <yamitenshi> whilo, yes, if you can put your neo in USB host mode
Apr 07 17:22:57 <yamitenshi> it should work, if you have the drivers
Apr 07 17:23:07 <whilo> yamitenshi: so you can put it in host mode?
Apr 07 17:23:21 <yamitenshi> whilo, which distro do you use?
Apr 07 17:23:39 <whilo> yamitenshi: none i am thinking about buying a freerunner in general
Apr 07 17:23:47 <whilo> i'd like to use voip then
Apr 07 17:23:48 <yamitenshi> ah, okay
Apr 07 17:24:10 <yamitenshi> well, there's a nice application on opkg.org that allows you to change your usb mode through a GUI
Apr 07 17:24:44 <whilo> yamitenshi: ok cool, thx
Apr 07 17:25:25 <yamitenshi> so as long as you can get the drivers to work on a freerunner (note: there's no guarantee that if the drivers work on your PC, they'll work on your freerunner too!), you can use the umts dongle
Apr 07 17:25:42 <whilo> yamitenshi: ok
Apr 07 17:26:34 <whilo> is the freerunner stable enough to run at least 24h without hanging if you intend to use it as a phone?
Apr 07 17:26:47 <yamitenshi> battery life is a serious issue
Apr 07 17:26:57 <whilo> yamitenshi: ok :-(
Apr 07 17:27:13 <yamitenshi> it will run 24h when you enable suspend and barely use the phone, but it won't last much longer than a few hours while calling
Apr 07 17:27:45 <whilo> yamitenshi: yep well my s60 phone only runs 3-4 hours when i am calling, that would be ok
Apr 07 17:28:12 <whilo> but to be reachable for 1-2 days if you do not anything would be quite important for my phone
Apr 07 17:28:16 <yamitenshi> IIRC, without suspend, but without using the phone at all, meaning you keep the screen locked, and the LCD is turned off, it runs 8 hours before the battery dies
Apr 07 17:28:37 <whilo> and with suspend you are not reachable anymore?
Apr 07 17:28:47 <yamitenshi> I don't think so
Apr 07 17:28:58 <yamitenshi> the suspend is the same kind you have on a laptop/pc
Apr 07 17:29:25 <yamitenshi> never really tried it, I use my neo more as a gadget/portable computer than as a phone
Apr 07 17:30:18 <whilo> yamitenshi: this is all ok, as long as you don't have to carry another phone with you, it would be no problem
Apr 07 17:30:44 <CVirus> I heard that 48 hours of suspend is possible with qt-extended
Apr 07 17:31:04 <whilo> CVirus: you mean 48 hours being reachable?
Apr 07 17:31:16 <CVirus> 48 hours of battery life*
Apr 07 17:31:32 <CVirus> not sure
Apr 07 17:31:43 <max_posedon> whilo, yes
Apr 07 17:32:00 <whilo> hmm that sounds not bad
Apr 07 17:32:04 <max_posedon> gsm modem "eats" now ~25mA
Apr 07 17:32:31 <toggles_w> max_posedon: was that due to the new firmware?
Apr 07 17:32:33 <max_posedon> may be someday with firmware and deap sleep it can be updated to 5-10mA
Apr 07 17:32:47 <whilo> cool
Apr 07 17:33:18 <max_posedon> toggles_w, as I know it always was, it is without "gsm deep sleep" (as I know)
Apr 07 17:33:35 <toggles_w> max_posedon: thanks mate
Apr 07 17:33:38 <whilo> and for playing around interest: has anybody here tested plasma (kde) on the freerunner recently?
Apr 07 17:33:38 <max_posedon> I just did few tests, and know that now my phone "eats" ~22mA
Apr 07 17:36:15 <whilo> but powering an usb device like an umts modem would kill the battery i guess
Apr 07 17:36:53 <yamitenshi> whilo, there are ways to charge your phone and connect a USB device, you should check the openmoko.org wiki
Apr 07 17:37:15 <whilo> yamitenshi: sure thx
Apr 07 17:37:45 <yamitenshi> anyway, now that the chat is more lively, maybe someone could help me out with a debian installation on my neo?
Apr 07 17:37:55 <DocScrutinizer> whilo: Y-cable ;-)
Apr 07 17:38:35 <whilo> DocScrutinizer: ok
Apr 07 17:41:10 <DocScrutinizer> whilo: with powering the USB from FR you get a minimum bat life of <1h. But can be reasonably more deending on actual powerconsumption of ext device. basically this is no difference to a regular 3G phone e.g.
Apr 07 17:42:00 <DocScrutinizer>  s/deend/dePend/
Apr 07 17:45:01 <DocScrutinizer> whilo: also of course you're reachable when in suspend
Apr 07 17:45:22 <whilo> DocScrutinizer: yep well this is cool
Apr 07 17:45:44 <DocScrutinizer> and figures about modem eating 25mA in standby are probably incorrect
Apr 07 17:45:44 <whilo> i'd like to do debian as i use it everywhere else, i guess it is a question of configuration
Apr 07 17:45:56 <whilo> the wiki page shows that basically everything should work on debian
Apr 07 17:46:15 <yamitenshi> basically, yes, but only use it if you absolutely know what you're doing
Apr 07 17:46:33 <yamitenshi> if you want to use it as a phone, FSO or Qt Extended are your best options
Apr 07 17:46:47 <DocScrutinizer> in the end it's the kernel that matters, not the distro
Apr 07 17:46:58 <whilo> ok
Apr 07 17:47:16 <whilo> what is the current status of gnash support? is youtube viewable?
Apr 07 17:47:42 <whilo> gnash 0.8.5 seems to have made great progress, but i havent been able to test it yet
Apr 07 17:50:13 <whilo> the problem due to the wiki is it does not support opengl rendering on the fr at the moment, so i guess video is damn slow
Apr 07 17:53:54 <PaulFertser> whilo: gnash has no relation whatsoever to youtube videos.
Apr 07 17:54:03 <yamitenshi> it does actually
Apr 07 17:54:10 <yamitenshi> youtube videos are flash videos
Apr 07 17:54:20 <yamitenshi> gnash is an open souce flash player thingy IIRC
Apr 07 17:54:37 <PaulFertser> whilo: also i highly doubt opengl implementation (if it ever happens) will help you  somehow with video render. Why do you think it will work?
Apr 07 17:55:02 <whilo> PaulFertser: because gnash uses opengl as one of its renderers
Apr 07 17:55:04 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: flash player != flash video player. Why on earth do you think it tries to render the video itself?
Apr 07 17:55:41 <PaulFertser> whilo: what makes you think that the kind of opengl possible with glamo will suit?
Apr 07 17:55:43 <whilo> PaulFertser: it uses the ffmpeg stack as far as i understand
Apr 07 17:56:10 <whilo> PaulFertser: i am asking to proposing some thesis here
Apr 07 17:56:15 <PaulFertser> whilo: so, it's not gnash related. You can as well try mplayer.
Apr 07 17:56:24 <whilo> PaulFertser: sure
Apr 07 17:57:24 <PaulFertser> whilo: and btw, youtube video usually sucks that much that i doubt anyone likes it.
Apr 07 17:57:48 <whilo> PaulFertser: well that is your opinion... ;-(
Apr 07 17:57:53 <whilo> ;-)
Apr 07 17:57:55 <PaulFertser> whilo: do you have other?
Apr 07 17:58:22 <whilo> youtube video is one of the largest video sites on the net, i don't like it, but i can't change it
Apr 07 17:58:51 <PaulFertser> whilo: moreover, youtube itself sucks like nothing else. Bunch of idiots commenting each other video to get positive feedback on theirs. And also the site doesn't provide an easy way to download. Who can like it?
Apr 07 17:59:26 <whilo> ask my brother,sister,... all the tech sites that publish there information there...
Apr 07 17:59:37 <PaulFertser> whilo: i guess somebody (lindi?) said he could view youtube flv fucking "video" with mplayer and xorg glamo driver.
Apr 07 17:59:56 <PaulFertser> whilo: what's irc nick of your brother?
Apr 07 18:01:08 <whilo> PaulFertser: lol, i wouldn't give it to you, if he had one. my brother and my sister don't even know what irc is
Apr 07 18:01:32 <whilo> PaulFertser: thx for your help, i am going to get a cigarillo
Apr 07 18:01:33 <PaulFertser> whilo: and i can't understand how can any sane person want to use a site that abuses its users (no download button is a great shame!).
Apr 07 18:01:42 <PaulFertser> whilo: better try weed :)
Apr 07 18:01:48 <whilo> PaulFertser: have you ever used google?
Apr 07 18:01:53 <PaulFertser> whilo: yes :(
Apr 07 18:02:04 <toggles_w> PaulFertser: sounds like you've never been on a boat
Apr 07 18:02:17 <PaulFertser> whilo: and i know that google supports chinese censorship :(
Apr 07 18:02:28 <whilo> well i cannot imagine how anyone can ever enter any personal information in a google form
Apr 07 18:02:39 <PaulFertser> toggles_w: do you mean a boat like a water means of transportation?
Apr 07 18:02:51 <whilo> PaulFertser: no much more worse, google is the biggest and absolutely intransparent information dealer on the world
Apr 07 18:02:51 <toggles_w> PaulFertser: yes
Apr 07 18:03:07 <toggles_w> PaulFertser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU
Apr 07 18:03:19 <whilo> this is the thing that nags me the most today
Apr 07 18:03:28 <PaulFertser> whilo: hehe, i guess when you use your real name on the internet, you're pretty much exposed to the world anyway...
Apr 07 18:03:36 <whilo> and wikia search is most likely going to get shut down although it is *really* good
Apr 07 18:04:19 <whilo> PaulFertser: but google centralizes as much information as it can get, that is completely monopolizing the web (which was a decentral structure in the beginning)
Apr 07 18:04:23 <PaulFertser> toggles_w: youtube-dl fails to download. Probably another artificial ip-location based restriction?
Apr 07 18:04:56 <PaulFertser> whilo: yes, i know about that threads. But boycotting google is somewhat hard these days :-/
Apr 07 18:05:05 <toggles_w> PaulFertser: oh well..
Apr 07 18:05:07 <PaulFertser> s/threads/threats/
Apr 07 18:05:07 <apt> PaulFertser meant: whilo: yes, i know about that threats. But boycotting google is somewhat hard these days :-/
Apr 07 18:05:22 <whilo> PaulFertser: block it with a transparent proxy
Apr 07 18:05:26 <whilo> ok smoking now
Apr 07 18:05:27 <whilo> cu later
Apr 07 18:05:49 <PaulFertser> tabaco is a useless drug. No joy, lots of harm. IMHO.
Apr 07 18:05:58 <yamitenshi> I beg to differ
Apr 07 18:06:10 <mmontour> whilo: the problem is that lots of other stuff relies on google these days (e.g. searching the Openmoko wiki)
Apr 07 18:06:14 <rooly> what about  orange peels?
Apr 07 18:06:15 <yamitenshi> I actually like the taste, and it's helpful against stress :)
Apr 07 18:06:37 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: placebo effect mostly, as far as i know. 
Apr 07 18:06:53 * mmontour gave up Google for lent
Apr 07 18:07:19 <yamitenshi> PaulFertser, nope, lack of oxygen, plus nicotine, which AFAIK actually calms you down xD
Apr 07 18:07:45 <yamitenshi> not sure about the nicotine though
Apr 07 18:08:31 <yamitenshi> but you inhale so much non-oxygen that the diffusion of oxygen into your blood becomes slower, which is the reason why beginning smokers tend to feel light-headed
Apr 07 18:08:42 <yamitenshi> but it does calm me down :P
Apr 07 18:09:04 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: have you heard about special kind of breathing that can lead to effects similar to dissociative stuff? It doesn't need any drugs for that.
Apr 07 18:09:58 <yamitenshi> true, but I still like the taste, which is why I started smoking in the first place
Apr 07 18:10:07 <yamitenshi> besides, I'm addicted xD
Apr 07 18:10:11 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: i mean, if you need to calm down, you can do that without "stuff", it's a matter of how you think, "it's all in the mind".
Apr 07 18:10:32 <yamitenshi> I know, taking a deep breath is more than enough
Apr 07 18:10:47 <PaulFertser> I prefer being addicted to people rather than to "things".
Apr 07 18:10:48 <yamitenshi> but smoking does help me in some cases
Apr 07 18:10:54 <yamitenshi> very true :P
Apr 07 18:11:10 <rooly> hmm
Apr 07 18:11:19 <rooly> i'm not so sure that being addicted to people is such a good thing
Apr 07 18:11:42 <yamitenshi> well, people are less reliable than things
Apr 07 18:11:45 <rooly> see, you stopped being able to buy more people if you ran out a hundred and some years ago
Apr 07 18:12:03 <yamitenshi> :P
Apr 07 18:13:34 <PaulFertser> rooly: i'm not sure that being addicted to drugs is such a bad thing too. Well, it makes you dumb, so what? I see nothing inherently bad in being dumb. Moreover, taoism never valued "smartness". So, it's just a matter of personal preference imho.
Apr 07 18:14:17 <yamitenshi> doesn't necessarily make you dumb
Apr 07 18:14:27 <yamitenshi> smoking just makes you dead :P
Apr 07 18:14:35 <rooly> lol
Apr 07 18:14:39 <PaulFertser> Yeah, true :) That's why i say smoking is useless.
Apr 07 18:14:43 <TAsn> PaulFertser, gfather and i are talking constantly ;]
Apr 07 18:14:51 <yamitenshi> well, I think lungs are overrated anyway xD
Apr 07 18:15:03 <PaulFertser> hehe
Apr 07 18:15:37 <PaulFertser> TAsn: great :) cross-nation collaboration to make the world a better place, i like it :)
Apr 07 18:15:54 <TAsn> hehe
Apr 07 18:15:59 <TAsn> well we are neighbors...
Apr 07 18:16:06 <yamitenshi> besides, these days you breathe in enough bad stuff anyway, so breathing through a filter should make things more healthy, right? :P
Apr 07 18:16:09 <TAsn> I've been to his city once ;]
Apr 07 18:17:15 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: heh, especially comparing to the amount of bad things i inhale cycling in megapolis :)
Apr 07 18:17:28 <yamitenshi> exactly :P
Apr 07 18:17:42 <yamitenshi> and with all the road work here, my lungs are being destroyed anyway :P
Apr 07 18:29:06 <Inc_Vega> Hi all
Apr 07 18:29:21 <TAsn> hey, does anyone know how to get the cflags+headers of a lib only if it exists? (autotools) the autotools chan is dead.
Apr 07 18:29:52 <Inc_Vega> any update regarding openmoko, I mean stability (GSM..etc)
Apr 07 18:29:59 <PaulFertser> TAsn: pkg-config?
Apr 07 18:30:18 <TAsn> that's exactly what autotools do
Apr 07 18:30:22 <TAsn> they use pkg-config
Apr 07 18:30:27 <TAsn> though the configure script dies
Apr 07 18:30:32 <TAsn> if there are no matching modules
Apr 07 18:30:38 <TAsn> and I want it to continue anyway
Apr 07 18:30:57 <TAsn> something like if exists cool, please let me know, if not, I don't mind
Apr 07 18:30:57 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 07 18:31:08 <PaulFertser> TAsn: you can comment out the section in configure or you can comment it in configure.in and do autoreconf.
Apr 07 18:32:00 <TAsn> manually
Apr 07 18:32:04 <TAsn> I want it automatic
Apr 07 18:32:10 <TAsn> if the lib exists
Apr 07 18:32:14 <TAsn> check the cflags
Apr 07 18:32:15 <TAsn> if not,
Apr 07 18:32:27 <TAsn> return empty cflags
Apr 07 18:33:10 <Sharwin_F-> don't know much about it, but maybe autoheader?
Apr 07 18:34:41 <TAsn> not related
Apr 07 18:34:50 <TAsn> I'm talking about compiler flags
Apr 07 18:35:06 <TAsn> there's probably a way to do an if or something.
Apr 07 18:35:16 <TAsn> check_module[bla] [] []
Apr 07 18:35:19 <TAsn> or something like that.
Apr 07 18:40:22 <PaulFertser> TAsn: i'd try to look it up in some configure.ac file from any program you know that does that :)
Apr 07 18:41:45 <TAsn> I don't ;]
Apr 07 18:53:42 <TAsn> btw my gps stopped working
Apr 07 18:53:46 <TAsn> is this normal? 
Apr 07 18:53:50 <TAsn> *sad wink*
Apr 07 19:11:33 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03prishelec 07libeflvala * r676c901eb57f 10/vapi/elm.vapi: elm.vapi: add missing functions to GenlistItem
Apr 07 19:46:42 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * raf83aeefdadc 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/ (7 files): fsogsmd: playing with mediator syntax
Apr 07 20:19:38 <cyberalex> someone has tryed bluetooth on last shr unstable?
Apr 07 20:20:20 <PaulFertser> cyberalex: it doesn't work, we know :)
Apr 07 20:20:31 <PaulFertser> cyberalex: are you a kernel hacker? ;)
Apr 07 20:20:44 <cyberalex> not yet
Apr 07 20:21:47 <cyberalex> i will study linux kernel hacking next 2 years at univerisity ;)
Apr 07 20:22:04 <cyberalex> PaulFertser: it is possible to do something?
Apr 07 20:22:16 <cyberalex> downgrade to bluez 3.x?
Apr 07 20:22:25 <PaulFertser> cyberalex: tell me how to properly kernel bind drivers to the platform devices ;)
Apr 07 20:22:50 <PaulFertser> cyberalex: no, that's an issue of usb controller driver not "finding" its device, as far as i can tell.
Apr 07 20:38:27 * DocScrutinizer really would love to see someone forking to a "no-more-upstream" branch and tailor a kernel and drivers to *fit* FR
Apr 07 20:40:45 <rooly> DocScrutinizer: why don't you do it?
Apr 07 20:41:41 <DocScrutinizer> rooly: cause I'm [hw], not [kernel]
Apr 07 20:42:12 <rooly> so what, your saying you want me to?
Apr 07 20:42:31 <DocScrutinizer> rooly: and 'cause tomorrow I might hate my idea of today ;D
Apr 07 20:42:56 <rooly> its not a half-bad idea
Apr 07 20:43:09 <rooly> making an OS strictly for the FR?
Apr 07 20:43:35 <SpeedEvil> There are many forks of the kernel.
Apr 07 20:43:40 <SpeedEvil> For all sorts of reasons.
Apr 07 20:50:02 <Serdar> is someone useing multiboot with success?
Apr 07 20:52:24 <DocScrutinizer> huh? uboot-menu? sure. or are U talking bout kexec-stuff?
Apr 07 20:52:37 <feitingen> if by success, you mean booting from nand and sd, then yes, but neither boots successfully (which is mostly due to lack of my abilities)
Apr 07 22:15:34 <lord-carlos> is there a way to stat pidgin not as root?
Apr 07 22:15:59 <max_posedon> yes, easy
Apr 07 22:16:08 <max_posedon> useradd -m user
Apr 07 22:16:12 <max_posedon> passwd user
Apr 07 22:16:16 <max_posedon> su user
Apr 07 22:16:21 <max_posedon> pidgin
Apr 07 22:16:32 <lord-carlos> mkey
Apr 07 22:17:40 <lord-carlos> useradd not found
Apr 07 22:17:51 <lord-carlos> but adduser
Apr 07 22:18:13 <lord-carlos> should i use that?
Apr 07 22:18:37 <lindi-> they are different tools
Apr 07 22:19:20 <max_posedon> really?)
Apr 07 22:19:36 <max_posedon> lord-carlos, yes, I think you should
Apr 07 22:21:42 <lord-carlos> ah nice. Now i finally i can join quakenet
Apr 07 22:21:43 <lord-carlos> thanks
Apr 07 22:22:11 <max_posedon> I have more funny problem with pidgin and shr
Apr 07 22:22:27 <max_posedon> it doesn't display russian on irc, but in jabber does
Apr 07 22:24:23 <cyberalex> max_posedon: there is a way to have missed calls alerts on shr?
Apr 07 22:24:37 <cyberalex> like a popup
Apr 07 22:25:00 <max_posedon> as I know - no
Apr 07 22:25:19 <max_posedon> but I think you can write magic dbus command to emulate it
Apr 07 22:42:04 <hipitihop> well my fresh shr failed the overnight test. it seems it ran out of battery while suspended so also never woke from an alarm ;-)
Apr 07 22:58:41 <cyberalex> there is a way to change the actual illume keyboard (Default Numbers Terminal ecc) whit a shell command?
Apr 07 22:58:53 <ndnihil> yes
Apr 07 22:59:02 <ndnihil> rm -f /path/to/keyboardfiles
Apr 07 22:59:07 <ndnihil> will change it quite a bit
Apr 07 22:59:18 <cyberalex> mmm
Apr 07 22:59:31 <cyberalex> i can see..
Apr 07 22:59:50 <cyberalex> i mean switch from one to another
Apr 07 22:59:54 <cyberalex> :)
Apr 07 23:00:06 <ndnihil> that I dont know
Apr 07 23:00:25 <ndnihil> I'd be fine with just the terminal version of the keyboard
Apr 07 23:00:35 <ndnihil> my fingers are too big for the others anyway
Apr 07 23:01:59 <cyberalex> i make 2 keyboards with big keys
Apr 07 23:02:08 <cyberalex> one for standard mode
Apr 07 23:02:13 <cyberalex> and one for landscape
Apr 07 23:03:16 <cyberalex> and i want to switch automatically between them
Apr 07 23:03:40 <ndnihil> probably still to small for these meathammers
Apr 07 23:03:58 <ndnihil> just to give you an idea, if you extend your thumb, and use the FR as a measuring device
Apr 07 23:04:16 <ndnihil> on my hand I get from tip of thumb, to only 1/3 the way into my palm
Apr 07 23:04:19 <ndnihil> with a full FR
Apr 07 23:04:50 <ndnihil> my palm is just under one FR wide
Apr 07 23:05:05 <ndnihil> a FR if you lop it off at the hole at the bottom
Apr 07 23:05:40 <ndnihil> I'm no andre the giant or anything
Apr 07 23:05:58 <ndnihil> but these hands are too big for touchscreen keyboards
Apr 07 23:09:13 <Dave> LAEN
Apr 07 23:09:46 <Sharwin_F-> ndnihil, this kb may help: http://www.opkg.org/package_142.html
Apr 07 23:09:51 <fredrin> faen? what pass? 
Apr 07 23:10:24 <fredrin> today i could almost walk and write sms at the same time :) 
Apr 07 23:11:29 <ndnihil> Sharwin_F-: I was looking at that one, figured it would be small'ish
Apr 07 23:11:40 <Sharwin_F-> ndnihil, works better to write sms :)
Apr 07 23:11:45 <Sharwin_F-> I use that one
Apr 07 23:11:46 <ndnihil> the dialer and desktop icons are ok sized
Apr 07 23:12:17 <CIA-54> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * recd5f3e79c49 10/fsogsmd/ (5 files in 2 dirs): fsogsmd: change hash names for commands to proper AT strings instead of class names
Apr 07 23:14:18 <fredrin> ndnihil: i use that 
Apr 07 23:14:27 <fredrin> the dictionary don't work though 
Apr 07 23:45:39 <layoutpcb> eleven
Apr 07 23:55:49 <DocScrutinizer> nine-
Apr 07 23:56:54 <shellevil> e
Apr 08 00:06:13 <Dave> 42
Apr 08 00:07:26 <rooly> i must say
Apr 08 00:07:39 <rooly> after reading that book series, i'm rather miffed at the ending
Apr 08 00:08:34 * fredrin never made it to the end
Apr 08 00:16:52 <badcloud> hey ppls
Apr 08 00:17:16 <DocScrutinizer> hey
Apr 08 00:18:36 <badcloud> what's new/up, doc?
Apr 08 00:19:20 <DocScrutinizer> no news here
Apr 08 00:20:10 <badcloud> that's good, right?
Apr 08 00:38:26 <Dave> Ken!
Apr 08 01:12:38 <Chocky> allmoo
Apr 08 01:13:41 <Dave> YES
Apr 08 01:15:08 <Chocky> DAVEMoo.
Apr 08 01:15:54 <Dave> yessums
Apr 08 01:36:35 <hipitihop> can someone tell me how to turn up volume during calls in SHR ? both me and other party are not loud enough
Apr 08 01:39:00 <hipitihop> shr is also slow to accept the call, keeps ringing well after accept button pressed
Apr 08 01:40:51 <fredrin> the caller app should always be running, maybe paroli will fix that
Apr 08 01:40:58 <fredrin> anyone using paroli on shr? 
Apr 08 01:45:57 <hipitihop> are accelerometers meters working in shr ?
Apr 08 02:01:40 <fredrin> hipitihop: yes
Apr 08 02:02:36 <hipitihop> fredrin: for screen rotation ?
Apr 08 02:02:52 <fredrin> yes
Apr 08 02:02:59 <fredrin> are some programs on opkg.org
Apr 08 02:03:30 <fredrin> rotate, but it's fare from perfect
Apr 08 02:03:42 <Chocky> heh
Apr 08 02:03:53 <fredrin> sometime the screen fucks up after turning
Apr 08 02:04:15 <fredrin> then you just have to shake it and twist it to get i normal 
Apr 08 02:04:19 <hipitihop> fredrin: re the volume, what should I be fiddling
Apr 08 02:05:02 <fredrin> some alsa state file, but not sure which one or wich mixer, but ther e 'should' be an easier way
Apr 08 02:05:11 <fredrin> not sure though 
Apr 08 02:05:24 <hipitihop> did you have to fiddle yours ? or your volumes are ok
Apr 08 02:05:37 <fredrin> nah, abit to low :( 
Apr 08 02:05:47 <fredrin> use the speaker mode if i have too :)
Apr 08 02:05:50 * Chocky tsks.  a bit, too.
Apr 08 02:06:10 * fredrin uses lazy workaround 
Apr 08 02:06:19 <hipitihop> does headphones work ?
Apr 08 02:06:26 <Chocky> hah.
Apr 08 02:06:36 <Chocky> for values of "work", yes.
Apr 08 02:07:24 <fredrin> not tried in a while
Apr 08 02:54:22 <Chocky> rools.
Apr 08 02:54:41 <fredrin> fatfingershell is nice 
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 08 02:59:57 2009