**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 10 02:59:57 2009 Aug 10 03:08:50 So what are the chances of getting an SMS-friendly Google Voice app in SHR-U? :P Aug 10 03:09:14 rooly: potassium Aug 10 03:09:22 raster: no banan's Aug 10 03:09:25 and no pickles Aug 10 03:09:30 i'm shit outta luck Aug 10 03:09:39 SMS is ridiculously expensive on my plan (screw you, AT&T), so right now I have to go through GV if I want to SMS. I'd like to be able to do it from my phone. Aug 10 03:09:42 if your muscles are feeling weak like you've just done a really hard workout... u need potassium Aug 10 03:09:52 raster: not weak Aug 10 03:09:54 sore Aug 10 03:09:56 as in hurting Aug 10 03:10:00 Will require a GPRS plan, but it's still a heck of a lot cheaper to pay 1c/kb than 20c/SMS Aug 10 03:10:00 as in ouch Aug 10 03:10:01 hmm Aug 10 03:10:07 sleep it off Aug 10 03:10:14 was the plan, now wasn't it Aug 10 03:10:18 thats the only thing i've ever done Aug 10 03:10:22 Digital_Pioneer: i'm about to start working on one Aug 10 03:10:29 they'll be right again when u wake up Aug 10 03:10:30 rooly: Really? Aug 10 03:10:37 Digital_Pioneer: yeah, i just got my invite Aug 10 03:10:44 <-- writing an SMS remote utility Aug 10 03:10:47 rooly: Sweet. If you need testing, let me know! I have an account too. Aug 10 03:10:52 Digital_Pioneer: check with your telco as to your options Aug 10 03:10:57 kinda like lojack Aug 10 03:10:59 gonna need to figure out the api that isn't provided tho Aug 10 03:11:11 ndnihil: you mean sms-sentry? Aug 10 03:11:14 raster: I don't really want to buy a plan... IDK if I'd use it all. I only really SMS with one person. Aug 10 03:11:18 yeah, except something that will work Aug 10 03:11:31 I think the dbus methods/signals changed since that was written Aug 10 03:11:39 this will have more features as well Aug 10 03:11:43 ic Aug 10 03:11:46 Cool. Aug 10 03:11:49 why don't you rip of that code Aug 10 03:11:53 callback features for listening in and data sessions Aug 10 03:11:54 isn't it in python anyway? Aug 10 03:11:57 ACL's Aug 10 03:12:03 yeah, sms-sentry is python Aug 10 03:12:07 mine is perl :) Aug 10 03:12:29 and will likely (eventually) include a perl-tk GUI configuration utility Aug 10 03:12:56 Digital_Pioneer: it won't get done for a while Aug 10 03:12:59 i have a lot of stuff on my plate Aug 10 03:13:08 but its on the book Aug 10 03:13:20 rooly: Well, let me know when you get something workable. :) Aug 10 03:13:30 i'll talk about it in here when i do Aug 10 03:13:39 i'll eventually post something to the wiki Aug 10 03:13:42 when i feel its ready Aug 10 03:15:01 Digital_Pioneer: if u want non-silly datarates, you agree to a plan of some sort Aug 10 03:15:24 raster: True, true. Aug 10 03:15:28 ie you agree to buy data in bulk and always buy a minimum amount - thus the telco gives you a discount. a very big one. the mopre you buy, the bigger tyhe discount Aug 10 03:15:34 itts pretty simple. Aug 10 03:15:41 yeah Aug 10 03:15:44 dont agree to buy - they will happily sell you "on demand" Aug 10 03:15:46 but it's easier in the US Aug 10 03:15:52 and they will charge a lot per unit (kb) Aug 10 03:16:07 some offer "unlimited" Aug 10 03:16:10 but its really the same Aug 10 03:16:13 you can use data without a data plan on verizon here in the US Aug 10 03:16:14 raster: I know that. :) But I want to make sure I'll use the entire bulk I buy. Aug 10 03:16:16 u agreed to buy "5gb" Aug 10 03:16:17 over here, we have pay-as-you-go and unlimited Aug 10 03:16:34 there are invisible limits - if they find u using too much they can throttle/cacnel etc. Aug 10 03:16:38 but you have to set up your own proxy Aug 10 03:16:51 invariably thats entirely up to you Aug 10 03:17:04 yeah Aug 10 03:17:11 not sure of the legality, but it works and they dont charge you for it unless you use a lot and they notice Aug 10 03:17:13 chances of using your entire data plan on this phone... Aug 10 03:17:14 yeah Aug 10 03:17:16 about nil Aug 10 03:17:18 the more you buy ijn bulk, the less u pay per kb. Aug 10 03:17:30 Anyways, they overcharge for SMS so ridiculously, I refuse to buy a plan for it. Data transfer is a different matter. Aug 10 03:17:40 the best solution is "how much am i willing to pay a month - relative to what is my likely maximum data usage?" Aug 10 03:17:46 that way you never get any nasty surprises Aug 10 03:18:07 (eg you paid for 500mb, but used 5gb, and they charge you excess data charges over the 500m at a high rate) Aug 10 03:18:31 Digital_Pioneer: you realize that this would absolutely destroy your battery Aug 10 03:18:40 technically speaking - u can do a data call to any gsm mobile Aug 10 03:18:47 my app... Aug 10 03:19:01 but that comes under your phone-calls in minutes Aug 10 03:19:03 would need significant optimization for the FR Aug 10 03:19:04 What ticks me off is, an SMS costs less to transfer, bit for bit, than data. An SMS is, maximally, almost .2 KB. It costs 20 cents per SMS, vs. 1 cent per KB of data. Aug 10 03:19:15 and your datarate i think will be 9600baud Aug 10 03:19:34 Digital_Pioneer: cant comapre sms vs data bit-for-bit Aug 10 03:19:34 rooly: True, true. Aug 10 03:19:41 they are very different transfer mechanisms Aug 10 03:19:43 raster: didn't you once say that phone companies filter non-human sounds via codecs Aug 10 03:19:44 raster: No, but close enough. Aug 10 03:19:53 yes - sms's are expensive Aug 10 03:20:05 Digital_Pioneer: not really. u are using the network control channel Aug 10 03:20:07 therefore gsm data is only theoretical Aug 10 03:20:14 it was never intended for mass data xfer Aug 10 03:20:27 raster: True, but it's free to use it for that. Aug 10 03:20:34 rooly: depends. gsm audio - yes Aug 10 03:20:39 but u can do a DATA cal Aug 10 03:20:40 l Aug 10 03:20:41 raster: Unless I'm mistaken. Aug 10 03:20:48 llit literally comes out the other end like a modem call Aug 10 03:20:58 if going to another phone its like a fax call Aug 10 03:21:31 Digital_Pioneer: its ythe network control channel - it was intended for control of the network and devices. it's specially allocated bandwidth (Channels) for it Aug 10 03:21:36 it wasint INTENDEd for data xfer Aug 10 03:21:48 in fact generally speaking 2g networks were not intended for data Aug 10 03:21:59 they can do it - but it was a "well we happen to be able to on the odd occasion" Aug 10 03:22:16 raster: Yeah, but you can send SMS's through there quite easily. That's the point. Aug 10 03:22:31 telcos try and get data onto their 3g+ netyworks because that is when telcos woke up to the "shit! data is important. people want to use the internet etc." Aug 10 03:22:35 you can Aug 10 03:22:39 ok - put it this way Aug 10 03:22:50 you can get to work by taking a limo Aug 10 03:22:59 the limo service was intended for the odd occasion of a special event Aug 10 03:23:04 eg wedding, formal, etc. etc. Aug 10 03:23:12 sure - u can use tyhe limo to go to and from work each day. Aug 10 03:23:20 it does do that - but it wasnt INTEDED for it Aug 10 03:23:33 and you will bitch and moan about how expensive the limo is compared to the train. Aug 10 03:23:36 therfore not optimized towards that scenario Aug 10 03:23:46 the network control channel was not INTENDEd for bulk data transfer Aug 10 03:23:53 it can be used for it Aug 10 03:24:00 and sms is an accident of history Aug 10 03:24:02 raster: Well, the way it was explained to me is, the limos are already going to and from work each day... You just catch a ride on what's already there. Aug 10 03:24:11 read up on sms and how it came about that it is used now. Aug 10 03:24:35 ooh no Aug 10 03:24:41 the limos are in the limo companies lot Aug 10 03:25:13 you're paying for them to take it out and take you to work Aug 10 03:25:13 again - read up on sms and how it works. Aug 10 03:25:14 100 dollars a lick Aug 10 03:25:16 it's an accident of history Aug 10 03:25:30 raster: is a 3g antenna any different than a 2g? Aug 10 03:25:35 and comparing sms data to other data is litm comparing the limo to the bus Aug 10 03:25:38 build a new free protocol Aug 10 03:25:50 the bus was intended for transport en-masse of lots of people from A to B Aug 10 03:25:55 or is gsm in general the same Aug 10 03:26:17 raster: Well, I wouldn't doubt that I'm wrong. I understood that since that channel was already open, it didn't cost a thing to send SMS over it. Aug 10 03:26:27 rooly: that, i don't know. the protocols on the wire are, as is encryption (2g encrytion can be broken in short-order with very little effort, 3g encryption has yet to be cracked) Aug 10 03:26:49 ic Aug 10 03:26:59 Digital_Pioneer: since the bus is already taking peolpe on its route... shouldnt it be free since its already driving around? Aug 10 03:26:59 freeride!! Aug 10 03:27:11 :) Aug 10 03:27:21 all public transprot (trains, busses, planes) should be cheap/free Aug 10 03:27:24 because i was wondering if a hardware hack to the freerunner using a 3g modem chip wired to the antenna and passed thru the usb bus might work Aug 10 03:27:27 as they are already driving/flying their routes! Aug 10 03:27:32 todays hackable1 coming up Aug 10 03:27:34 (being sarchastic) Aug 10 03:27:51 raster: The bus exists to take people along the route, so no. The control channel is for... Whatever it's for. SMS are just freeloaders that catch a ride, no? So it should be _cheap_ at least. Aug 10 03:27:59 sms is expensive because originally the high costs of sms's were to cover the high infrastructure cost Aug 10 03:28:14 rooly: yes - but they are not chips - they are modules Aug 10 03:28:20 but - peolpe jumped onto sms's - in other countries long before the usa every even knew what text messaging was Aug 10 03:28:23 rooly: and it's complex Aug 10 03:28:24 the us is far behind there. Aug 10 03:28:36 and people are WILLING to pay the amount the telcos are charging Aug 10 03:28:44 in any market your charge what the market is willing to pay Aug 10 03:28:56 here is the problem Aug 10 03:29:04 if they are willing to pay silly amounts - you keep charging it. its simply business principles that every busainess is built on. Aug 10 03:29:06 raster: Yeah, and it sucks, and I'm not willing to pay it. :) Aug 10 03:29:18 all except for the used car market Aug 10 03:29:25 until epeople just stop sending sms's and start using some other m3echanism (eg data sessions) it wont change Aug 10 03:29:35 or simply stop sending messages entirelyu and go back to the old fashioned Aug 10 03:29:37 That's my point... I just complain because it doesn't NEED to cost that much. Aug 10 03:29:55 "i'll meet you at the bar and talk about it over a beer" rather than hold conversations over sms. Aug 10 03:30:01 hmm Aug 10 03:30:02 raster: Well, that's not going to happen. :P Aug 10 03:30:03 your right Aug 10 03:30:06 that'd be much cheaper Aug 10 03:30:07 Digital_Pioneer: They have to make money in some way Aug 10 03:30:17 well then - pay for your sms;s Aug 10 03:30:18 for you, i mean Aug 10 03:30:20 not me Aug 10 03:30:22 Digital_Pioneer: Otherwise they can't build/maintain nets. Aug 10 03:30:28 unless you are willing to change what you buy - they will not change Aug 10 03:30:32 * rooly has unlimited sms/data for 30$/month Aug 10 03:30:41 SpeedEvil: Sure, but from what I understand, the amount they charge for SMS vs. the cost to provide it is a massive difference. Aug 10 03:30:49 if they start finding peolpe stopping to use sms because its too much (and thus lower prices to get people to buy again)... it will stay high Aug 10 03:30:51 but 3 billion dollars? Gooosh Aug 10 03:30:52 simply econmoics Aug 10 03:30:55 simple Aug 10 03:31:06 Yeah. Aug 10 03:31:18 i do contract work Aug 10 03:31:18 So I want to use a data plan, because it's a heck of a lot cheaper. :) Aug 10 03:31:31 i charge a lot more than your mcdonalds employee gets per hour Aug 10 03:31:32 hey Aug 10 03:31:33 raster Aug 10 03:31:37 I can send many SMS's in one KB of data. Aug 10 03:31:42 do you use the fr ever as a daily phone? Aug 10 03:31:48 (Well, maybe not, but you see my point) Aug 10 03:32:00 Digital_Pioneer: Sure. And would you rather pay more rental and have cheap SMSs? Aug 10 03:32:40 hell Aug 10 03:32:42 anyone Aug 10 03:32:44 SpeedEvil: Aug 10 03:32:46 you? Aug 10 03:32:49 you cant say "but the mcdonalds guy gets $7/hr! you must charge the same". hell no. clients are willint to pay what i charge and as long as they are willing to do so, i shall keep charging what i do. i will adjust what i charge according to supply and demand. telcos are much the same. Aug 10 03:33:18 Digital_Pioneer: bingo. so.. pay your $20/month for a lump of data Aug 10 03:33:21 and use data instead orf sms's Aug 10 03:33:33 don't complain about sms charges - just move your business elsewhere Aug 10 03:33:37 like all things. Aug 10 03:33:55 raster: Yeah, it's true, and I'm not willing to pay it, so I'm ticked off because everyone else is. :P They're keeping the prices up. Aug 10 03:33:55 if sms's do the job you need and the price is acceptable - dont change. Aug 10 03:34:00 rooly: nup. Aug 10 03:34:06 20 dollars for lump data Aug 10 03:34:10 oy Aug 10 03:34:15 /clear Aug 10 03:34:24 okay Aug 10 03:34:26 thats better Aug 10 03:34:36 For example - in the UK - I can get for 15 quid a month - free texts and 300 mins talk/mo included Aug 10 03:34:48 Heheheh Aug 10 03:34:58 Digital_Pioneer: supply vs demand. and demand is still high, so... nothngi you can do about everyone else. the telc isnto going to magically change prices for just you. :) they have enough other people willing to pay what they charge. Aug 10 03:35:31 hell i know that in the usa and here u can get "bulk messaging plans" where you can buy 100, 500, 1000, or "unlimited" sms's - like with data - you pay a monthly fixed fee for up to X sms's Aug 10 03:35:37 you can buy one of those. Aug 10 03:35:44 mmhmm Aug 10 03:35:54 at&t offers 250, 1500, and unlimited Aug 10 03:35:57 rooly: the gta02 simpy has too many things wrong with it for me to use as a phone. Aug 10 03:36:09 's fine Aug 10 03:36:18 (for me) Aug 10 03:36:24 i was just wondering if anybody else gets voicemail notifications the same as i do Aug 10 03:36:44 raster: Yeah, but I don't use that many SMSs. If I did, I would get one of those plans. Then again, if I got one of those plans, I might use that many SMSs. It's the chicken and egg. Aug 10 03:36:51 i turned off voicemail on my account like 6 years ago Aug 10 03:36:54 and havent looked back Aug 10 03:36:57 i hate voicemail Aug 10 03:36:58 So for now, I use GV. Aug 10 03:37:10 Digital_Pioneer: well its simply numbers. Aug 10 03:37:15 if you send 10 sms's a month Aug 10 03:37:24 and you pay $0.25 per sms... thats $2.50 pe month Aug 10 03:37:32 or u can buy 500 sms's for $10/month Aug 10 03:37:42 either way its cheaper to pay per sms even if it is $0.25 Aug 10 03:37:43 True. :) Aug 10 03:37:55 simply go for the option that makes the end bill cheaper Aug 10 03:38:12 example - my phone plan is a "usage only" one (except for data) Aug 10 03:38:19 i make 0 calls a month.. it costs me $0 Aug 10 03:38:42 But I prefer to use GV. It's cheaper still. Aug 10 03:38:43 (the telco stopped offering these plans... they realised it was silly, but i've stuck on mine for about 7 years now) Aug 10 03:38:54 raster: Mines the same way. Aug 10 03:39:06 sure - i can get a $30/month plan and get "$500 worth of included call and text credit" Aug 10 03:39:15 sure - but thats $30/mo Aug 10 03:39:31 my normal bills are more like $5-$10/mo or even less some are like $2 Aug 10 03:40:13 i pay more per minute/sms that i d on a #30 plan (that effectively costs like $0.02 per sms or $0.10 per minute for calls) Aug 10 03:40:28 i pay more per unit.. but i consume so little - i'm better off. Aug 10 03:40:43 so - you do the same. figure out what in the end is cheaper for you Aug 10 03:41:01 stop worrying about hoe much per kb or per min or per sms u pay and what the final bill is. Aug 10 03:41:24 :) Aug 10 03:41:38 and if u can lower the final bill by moving sms's to data... do that Aug 10 03:41:45 but it may mean buying as lump of data "bulk" Aug 10 03:41:48 Yeah, yeah, OK, OK. What I really want is to have it for free. LOL Aug 10 03:41:56 doesnt everyone Aug 10 03:42:05 but thats not going to happen :) Aug 10 03:42:10 :D Aug 10 03:42:12 no such thing as a free lunch. Aug 10 03:42:15 * jjwc thinks like Digital_Pioneer Aug 10 03:42:22 jjwc: Heheh Aug 10 03:42:22 hmm Aug 10 03:42:27 i've had free lunch many times Aug 10 03:42:47 Actually, all I want is a device that uses WiFi for email and browsing and GSM for dialing numbers. Aug 10 03:43:03 rooly: somehow it was paid for Aug 10 03:43:04 :) Aug 10 03:43:06 I don't want a data plan, a texting plan, or anything else. Aug 10 03:43:19 someone pays for it somewhere.. and sooner or later the cost will come back to you Aug 10 03:43:20 :) Aug 10 03:43:36 jjwc: where are you? Aug 10 03:43:36 raster: oh, for sure. but people who say the no free lunch thing forget how close-minded the guy who's getting the free lunch is Aug 10 03:43:44 jjwc: Same with me, except WiFi is unreliable. Aug 10 03:43:46 because Aug 10 03:43:50 as far as he's concerned Aug 10 03:43:52 free lunch it is Aug 10 03:43:58 rooly: hahahhaah Aug 10 03:43:59 SpeedEvil: US. I'm on a college campus 90% of the time, so WiFi is plentiful. Aug 10 03:44:04 indeed Aug 10 03:44:14 if you cant think very far... it may seem free Aug 10 03:44:15 :) Aug 10 03:44:20 yah Aug 10 03:44:22 so anywho Aug 10 03:44:36 does ANYONE ELSE experience the same issue i have with incoming voicemail notifications Aug 10 03:44:45 as in, it arrives a special SMS Aug 10 03:44:52 rooly: Yeah, I have that. Aug 10 03:44:59 rooly: And another one comes in when I delete them. Aug 10 03:45:03 right Aug 10 03:45:19 rooly: Looks like a couple of bytes of binary, displayed as ASCII or something. Aug 10 03:45:25 hold on a moment while i go look at what it is Aug 10 03:45:47 is yoru new voicemail _@? Aug 10 03:45:50 _@ Aug 10 03:46:20 rooly: I don't have any, I delete them, so I can't be sure, but I don't think so. Aug 10 03:46:25 Mine have a triangle in them, I think. Aug 10 03:46:37 Not a character on the keyboard. Aug 10 03:46:59 i wasn't sure if it would be carrier specific Aug 10 03:47:10 not surprising Aug 10 03:47:10 Yeah. Aug 10 03:47:12 but then again, most phones get customized Aug 10 03:47:19 for a carrier Aug 10 03:47:24 there are quite a few speical sms formats with binary in them out there for such things Aug 10 03:47:42 there are even ones that send data s4ession setup config to yourt phone for that telco Aug 10 03:47:55 so your phone automatically "just works" when tis on that telco's network Aug 10 03:48:09 well apparently not every telco implements that Aug 10 03:48:16 no - not all Aug 10 03:48:17 some do Aug 10 03:48:20 and some phones implementit Aug 10 03:48:23 there is a standard for it Aug 10 03:48:28 and not every phone manufacturer implements it Aug 10 03:48:31 i believe there are other standards too Aug 10 03:48:35 but i dont know the details of them Aug 10 03:48:39 ic Aug 10 03:48:55 we need to collect a database for at least the voicemail notifications Aug 10 03:48:59 indeed Aug 10 03:49:05 and possibly mms notifications Aug 10 03:49:25 there are some generic ones too that send just notmal text messages Aug 10 03:49:32 that way development could start on applications that could utilize them Aug 10 03:49:45 eg optus will send smss telling u u have a missed call if u were not on the network at the time Aug 10 03:50:12 this isnt a special format - just normal text, but a way to recognise some "template" messages and turn them into proper notifications would be good Aug 10 03:50:29 it all arrives on the phone as sms anyway Aug 10 03:50:38 once u have a way to insert a special handler for sms formats Aug 10 03:50:41 so a text template would be the best way Aug 10 03:50:51 then yes - apps that uses these will be able to do cool stuff by such insertions Aug 10 03:51:12 onces handling voicemail would do the same thing - a hook looking for a specific binary format sms Aug 10 03:51:28 others would look for other formatted sms's (text or binary) etc. Aug 10 03:51:50 well, fso is gonna output the sms content as a string of bytes Aug 10 03:51:53 IE ascii Aug 10 03:52:00 or maybe utf8 Aug 10 03:52:04 iunno Aug 10 03:52:38 sms's have an encoding field in the header Aug 10 03:52:41 i think Aug 10 03:53:05 so you could simply put a layer between the sms app and fso's callback system to catch special sms's Aug 10 03:53:17 yes Aug 10 03:53:21 it would have to be a carrier-string match Aug 10 03:53:33 fso would need a way to insert these special handlers in before the sms gets delivered as a "normal sms" Aug 10 03:53:45 in fact... Aug 10 03:53:49 the system is universal Aug 10 03:54:31 i just wonder sometimes why this kind of stuff hasn't been implemented already Aug 10 03:54:38 "normal sms's" are just the very last handler in the list - anything not lready stolen by a prior handler (looking for special formatted sms's" is delivered to the "default sms handler" at the end of the list - and thus put in your sms message store etc. Aug 10 03:54:59 like, back with om2007... Aug 10 03:55:37 your right Aug 10 03:55:41 that's a great system too Aug 10 03:55:51 and the attachment could be done thru dbus Aug 10 03:55:54 with no trouble at all Aug 10 03:56:00 just use a binary mask Aug 10 03:56:14 pass fso a binary mask and a callback mechanism Aug 10 03:56:21 and bam Aug 10 03:56:39 you've now got things like data-session auto configure Aug 10 03:56:48 and voicemail notifications Aug 10 03:57:06 and whatever else is available Aug 10 03:57:45 which would further pave the way for doing things like the way the iphone handles voice mail Aug 10 03:58:18 anywho Aug 10 03:58:24 i have to wake up at 3 Aug 10 03:58:26 so Aug 10 03:58:28 i'm gonna head out Aug 10 03:58:30 nn guys Aug 10 03:58:42 nn Aug 10 03:58:46 * rooly doesn't wanna once again have to be the one to implement something Aug 10 03:58:51 i hate having to do the work... Aug 10 03:59:09 especially when i don't know the system Aug 10 03:59:10 well Aug 10 03:59:11 whatever Aug 10 03:59:16 stop the hate:) Aug 10 04:02:47 * SpeedEvil promises rooly ten shiny golden coins for completion of the work. Aug 10 04:05:07 ( http://alwaysdirect.com/Chocolate-Gold-Coins-24-Bags/M/B002G3OHFI.htm ) Aug 10 04:48:29 hmmmm opkg not found Aug 10 05:09:54 * ndnihil stabs raster Aug 10 05:11:22 You can't stab raster. Aug 10 05:11:31 hide and watch Aug 10 05:11:48 E did the looping crash thing again, he deserved it :) Aug 10 05:11:54 He's comprised of infinitely thin lines in a grid - the knife just slides right through. Aug 10 05:14:55 muhahahaha! Aug 10 05:15:06 ndnihil: e is perfectly stabkle here Aug 10 05:15:09 stable Aug 10 05:15:09 :) Aug 10 05:15:30 changed any preferences lately? Aug 10 05:15:50 this is the 3rd or 4th time it has gone into the looping crash after changing settings for me Aug 10 05:16:06 nup - i dont change prefs (much) Aug 10 05:16:11 one of those times removing ~/.e didn't even work Aug 10 05:16:18 pacthes accepted! :) Aug 10 05:16:29 nb deleting that shouldnt really fix anything Aug 10 05:16:44 it does the trick most of the time Aug 10 05:16:49 e actually versions its configds and if a config fails to load - it will fall back to the previous version of the config that did work Aug 10 05:17:46 that should avoid any fs problems where u pull the power/battery and the fs doesnt write data to disk (leaves empty 0 byte files as config) Aug 10 05:17:58 *shrug* Aug 10 05:18:05 maybe I'm doing something it -really- doesn't like Aug 10 05:18:33 maybe - just remember. i use e on my desktop and laptop, all day, every day. Aug 10 05:18:38 zero crashes. Aug 10 05:18:59 so e itself at least as far as i see is pretty solid. no i dont use the illume module on my desktop Aug 10 05:19:03 (surprising!) Aug 10 05:19:03 :) Aug 10 05:19:09 probably on the machines you develop on, where everything is pretty sanitary no? Aug 10 05:19:19 right now i dont have any day-to-day device worthy of e Aug 10 05:19:34 well my machines are all ubuntu boxes these days Aug 10 05:19:41 no offense, but I think I'm going to try a more lightweight wm Aug 10 05:19:51 e is awesome on the workstation/laptop Aug 10 05:19:52 and i actually svn update and rebuild all of core efl and e on a almost daily basis Aug 10 05:19:58 but I think it's just too much for this phone Aug 10 05:20:00 as well as hack around with it "live" Aug 10 05:20:05 so sanitary isnt what i'd call them Aug 10 05:20:06 :) Aug 10 05:20:34 the gta02 is a pretty poor device. Aug 10 05:20:45 its pushing 4x the pixels its hw was intended for Aug 10 05:20:58 likely anything you replace it with will be also fairly poor Aug 10 05:21:03 but try away :) Aug 10 05:21:10 lxde in neovento responded pretty nicely Aug 10 05:21:18 e shoudl too Aug 10 05:21:23 did u turn off the animations? Aug 10 05:21:30 u arent really comparing apples and apples Aug 10 05:21:35 yep, that's the first thing I do after flashing Aug 10 05:21:40 lxde doesnty do any animation at all Aug 10 05:22:08 which engine do you recommend for the gta02? Aug 10 05:22:32 yes - the launcher is going to scroll slowly in illume - known. but the drawing mechanisms are entirely different Aug 10 05:22:34 anyway. Aug 10 05:22:38 sometimes it seems like software is best, and sometimes software_16 Aug 10 05:22:48 i personally just avoid my gta02's Aug 10 05:23:06 software_16 will be fastest - but it will have lower quality and some things will crash as its an incomplete engine Aug 10 05:23:11 its written for a subset of rendering Aug 10 05:23:15 so - it depends Aug 10 05:23:34 software-x11 (default) implements everything and some optimisation stuff no other engines do Aug 10 05:23:43 but its 32bpp internally so it'll be slower. Aug 10 05:23:44 what about xrender? Aug 10 05:24:06 it'd be quite decent if u were on qvga - which is what glamo and the cpu were really built for Aug 10 05:24:28 xrender is entirely dependant on x's accel of xrender. glamo can only partly accelerate xrender, and no one has implemented any accel for it as best i know Aug 10 05:24:52 my guess is - if it was accelerated, it'd more or less work the same speed as the software-16 engine Aug 10 05:25:02 (it'd win on some things, lose on others) Aug 10 05:25:10 but there's some nasty complexity to doing it Aug 10 05:25:24 (thanks to glamo's architecture and limitations) Aug 10 05:25:42 and that's all moot until someone bothers to write the acceleration primitives for x Aug 10 05:25:53 unfortunately we're pretty much stuck with glamo, so I'm pretty interested in using it as efficiently as possible Aug 10 05:26:07 to do that u'll need the glamo docs. and.. the docs are not public (nda) last i checked. Aug 10 05:26:16 figures Aug 10 05:26:29 this is why i'm not holding up much hope for gta02 Aug 10 05:26:41 if u dropped down to qvga - u'll have a very much mroe usable phone Aug 10 05:26:53 it would be fine if it were treated as a phone instead of a laptop Aug 10 05:27:08 seriously - i know everyone moans and bitches, but the cpu is from the days when qvga was king of displays Aug 10 05:27:21 anything higher was a theoretical concept and not actually usedf Aug 10 05:27:29 and it's not like there are many other phones out there (readily) capable of running a full-on linux dist Aug 10 05:27:42 same with glamo - if u read its tech docs it becomes apparent it was designed for qvga - but.. can do up to vga at a stretch Aug 10 05:28:29 so my suggestion is - config x to go @ qvga and try that for a while. problem is peolpe will build apps that simpy dont work in qvga (if u ask me thats just bad effort on the app department) Aug 10 05:28:43 if u want to do higher res's - u'll be wanting much mroe modern hw Aug 10 05:28:47 half of these apps were written for the desktop Aug 10 05:29:01 the iphone 3gs uses a cortex-a8 on 1/2 the pixels of the gta02 Aug 10 05:29:21 and the cortex a8 will give u about 6-7x the performance of the 2442 in the gta02 Aug 10 05:30:07 every pixel to draw is a drain on the memory bus and cpu (and gfx unit if accelerated) the fewer u draw, the better things perform. :) Aug 10 05:30:18 yeah Aug 10 05:30:35 so when does your super phone come out again? Aug 10 05:30:44 it doesnt - no money to make it :( Aug 10 05:31:02 i got as far as high level design and then am in need of serious money to get it rolling. Aug 10 05:31:06 do them as kits Aug 10 05:31:22 even as kits - u just cant get the parts Aug 10 05:31:28 unless you order 50,000 units+ Aug 10 05:31:33 oof Aug 10 05:32:05 and unless you are waving big fat cheques or have a name eg nokia, motorola, samsung, lg, apple etc.) they wont take u seriously enough to sell u the components Aug 10 05:32:12 the actual assembly is not that hard Aug 10 05:32:30 also u need a case - to make that is either like $50-$100 per case Aug 10 05:32:43 or u n4eed like $250,000 up front for molds and setup etc. etc. Aug 10 05:32:49 thats the kind of money u are talking Aug 10 05:32:53 just for some elements of it Aug 10 05:32:56 I do have a buddy in the UK who was able to get me access to otherwise unattainable (by the little guy) bits and pieces Aug 10 05:33:19 lucky bastard just got himself an F430 Aug 10 05:33:24 i'm currently focusing on alternative platforms/sources of hardware that can/willrun a proper full linux system... out of the box - from the manufacturer Aug 10 05:33:40 ooh well - he seems to have good access! Aug 10 05:33:41 :) Aug 10 05:33:50 better than i have :( Aug 10 05:33:55 he designs for some big company Aug 10 05:34:00 anyway - working on an alternate strategy Aug 10 05:34:28 getting a "big bompany" to see the benefits of not doing android, or winmo, etc., etc. Aug 10 05:34:41 of doing an open "full linux os" with x11 etc. so its easy to dev for, port to etc. etc. Aug 10 05:34:47 and produce real, good, modern hw Aug 10 05:34:58 it's a start Aug 10 05:35:16 but if u ask me, the most realistic option. :) Aug 10 05:35:49 hell I'd be fine with picking up an iphone if I could flash linux to it Aug 10 05:36:01 well people have been working on that Aug 10 05:36:13 but u will not get any help from apple Aug 10 05:36:27 they've been working on it since it was first released, but nothing has happened as far as I know Aug 10 05:36:30 i'd rather where the maker of the device is actually supportive and helps the community out Aug 10 05:36:41 good luck with that Aug 10 05:36:43 currently one of your best bets is the palm pre i think Aug 10 05:36:59 nokia has done some linuxy things Aug 10 05:37:09 well, i actually am most of the way there in getting someone big onto the open linux bandwagon Aug 10 05:37:28 if there's anything I can do to help that along, say the word Aug 10 05:37:51 there's been internal linux stuff for a long time - i've been pushing it to be open, standard and hackable. Aug 10 05:38:00 after having the gta02 for a while, I never knew how much I needed a tiny little machine I could develop on Aug 10 05:39:00 well here's a q - i've bandeid it about with positive feedback internally so far. if they did a pilot program - like took an existing model and released a linux version "for developers" with just enough hw to plug in via usb, reflash, and the src and binaries an dimages needed to have linux working on it (and ship it with linux already there, booting and working) Aug 10 05:39:13 I can watch my home security cameras, control the x10 home automation stuff, control the workstation "media center" style Aug 10 05:39:19 even if it was "full price" (eg your $400-$800 range) Aug 10 05:39:46 I'd buy one Aug 10 05:39:54 just to show support if nothing else Aug 10 05:40:05 would you and other linux devs be willing to buy and use/hack and work with them to improive their base image and workflow so when final "mass devices" appear it'd be seamless - it'd be what you - developers want, and consumer-ready? Aug 10 05:40:06 assuming it had reasonable specs Aug 10 05:40:21 I'd totally be down for that Aug 10 05:40:28 suffice to say - it's specs would be high. Aug 10 05:40:50 mobile devices are "the way of the future" Aug 10 05:40:58 at least iphone 3g level with internals - if not 3gs, with higher-res screen. Aug 10 05:41:17 linux needs a foot in the door if it's going to be the same lovable platform we all enjoy on our workstations and laptops Aug 10 05:41:30 agreed Aug 10 05:41:32 100% Aug 10 05:41:41 thats why i thought openmoko was on a winner Aug 10 05:41:45 it was exactly the right thing Aug 10 05:41:48 a real linux phone Aug 10 05:41:49 yep Aug 10 05:42:02 not a linue kernel + custom userspace, custom fb-based windowing system/single app only Aug 10 05:42:09 and closed everything except a jvm - maybe Aug 10 05:42:16 even still I quite like the phone Aug 10 05:42:21 a real linux system - miniaturised (daemons, libns and tools removed) Aug 10 05:42:23 but I do sorely wish it had better performance Aug 10 05:42:24 does anyone use the dates program with pisi? Aug 10 05:42:40 but otherwise recognisable as linux and easy to dev for Aug 10 05:42:45 drascus321: nup Aug 10 05:43:00 if u have that - but also good hardware Aug 10 05:43:07 ... you've got options. Aug 10 05:43:19 nup ? Aug 10 05:43:22 i think the hw will be top-notch, so don't worry about that. Aug 10 05:43:23 put me on the list for that dev phone Aug 10 05:43:25 drascus321: nup. Aug 10 05:43:30 ok. cool Aug 10 05:43:36 what does that mean? Aug 10 05:43:44 i'v e told them that if they did that - it'd be a cheap way to evaluate developer interest Aug 10 05:43:58 drascus321: nup. nope. nah... no! Aug 10 05:43:59 :) Aug 10 05:44:04 umm ok Aug 10 05:44:06 high price will probably scare a lot of people away Aug 10 05:44:06 lol Aug 10 05:44:11 never heard someone say "nup!" Aug 10 05:44:12 ? Aug 10 05:44:19 nup Aug 10 05:44:21 but it'd still be worth it for many I'm sure Aug 10 05:44:33 ndnihil: dont know the price. all i know is that it'd be a full sale - no telco subsidy like iphone and g1 Aug 10 05:44:55 yeah, I wouldn't expect it to be consumer-level cheap Aug 10 05:45:01 but it wouldnt be intended to make "killer profit" really to just cover the costs of the pilot program Aug 10 05:45:10 heck, I paid full price for the gta02 Aug 10 05:45:14 so u wouldnt get usual warranty/support Aug 10 05:45:20 two days before they dropped the price Aug 10 05:45:29 u'd get "hardware screwed only" warranty and otherwise be on your own Aug 10 05:45:36 hah, warranty and support are for suckers anyway Aug 10 05:45:47 :) Aug 10 05:46:02 there is one catch atm - right now it looks like there will be binary blobs Aug 10 05:46:10 even on consumer level stuff, all I expect out of a warranty is that it's free from manufacturing defects and functions as described Aug 10 05:46:28 telephony stack is closed and is troublesome to open (nda's with chipset suppliers) Aug 10 05:46:37 3d likely would be binary driver only (ala nvidia) Aug 10 05:46:57 I don't have as much of a problem with blobs as many do Aug 10 05:47:04 I used the nvidia drivers Aug 10 05:47:07 also manufacturer provided apps (contacts, dialler, etc.) wouldnt be open Aug 10 05:47:14 they work well, and I have no intention of modifying it Aug 10 05:47:30 but there's possibilities to provide replacements Aug 10 05:47:38 cool Aug 10 05:47:48 of your own - for all but telephony daemon and 3d drivers Aug 10 05:48:03 so its not totally "open" - but its a step Aug 10 05:48:08 so will the telephony drivers speak dbus, we just read from that? Aug 10 05:48:15 right now - no. Aug 10 05:48:29 thats a point of contention atm Aug 10 05:48:30 (I'm not a huge fan of dbus, but am getting fairly familiar with it) Aug 10 05:48:59 but i think there is will to be "more open" about it Aug 10 05:49:17 i think there is "dislike for dbus" atm Aug 10 05:49:39 yeah, it's kinda bloated and obnoxious Aug 10 05:49:43 I can see the point behind it Aug 10 05:49:52 but eh Aug 10 05:49:52 thus there is a different comms system in place Aug 10 05:50:06 as for openging that up for others to use - i suspect that might be a "yes" there Aug 10 05:50:15 anyway - am working on it Aug 10 05:50:25 cool, sign me up Aug 10 05:50:27 right now rootfs is splut - 2 ubifs partitions and 2 cramfs Aug 10 05:50:40 one ubifs is mounted ro (can be remounted rw) Aug 10 05:50:49 but the problem is the complexity of cramfs+ubifsx2 Aug 10 05:50:52 with any luck, this mystery device is physically smaller than the gta02? Aug 10 05:51:00 where u can modiufy some bits, not others (without reflash) Aug 10 05:51:03 hmm Aug 10 05:51:25 put it this way - it's made by someone who makes 10's of millions phones a year Aug 10 05:51:31 they know how to make phones Aug 10 05:51:31 :) Aug 10 05:51:37 so it'll fit in a wristwatch Aug 10 05:51:59 its more a question of "which one of the existing hw platforms they have will be chosen to pop out the door as the open linux one" :) Aug 10 05:52:14 and there';s no lack of choice there Aug 10 05:52:40 you should consider the popularity that the gta's have gained as a benchmark of interest levels Aug 10 05:52:49 (right now i'd like to get the fastest/slickest one out... and that has thumbs up from the reas of the guys working on it) Aug 10 05:53:06 I doubt any of us bought it thinking it was a consumer-ready phone Aug 10 05:54:17 well i know how many were sold there Aug 10 05:54:20 even if it ships minimally functional for phone/sms duties, it'll probably sell like hotcakes Aug 10 05:54:27 i suspect if its froma name-brand maker.. it could sell many more Aug 10 05:54:52 at least the hw wouldnt have... bugs Aug 10 05:54:57 heheh Aug 10 05:55:17 and it'd be modern (ie modern up-to-date cpu, etc. etc.) 3g, and so on Aug 10 05:55:57 I would love a touchscreen slider with physical keyboard Aug 10 05:56:09 hmmm Aug 10 05:56:19 sliders are going out of fashion - more expensive to make Aug 10 05:56:24 I usually go for flips Aug 10 05:56:29 qwerty or keypad behind slider? Aug 10 05:56:36 qwerty Aug 10 05:56:45 hmmm Aug 10 05:56:47 eliminate software keyboard Aug 10 05:56:52 that generally doesnt go together with small Aug 10 05:56:52 :) Aug 10 05:56:54 preserve screen real-estate Aug 10 05:57:02 we can dream cant we? :) Aug 10 05:57:08 heheher Aug 10 05:57:10 laser projection keyboard Aug 10 05:57:54 I'm just not a fan of on-screen software keyboards Aug 10 05:58:06 particularly on devices with small screens Aug 10 05:58:44 it's not as bad on 17" tablets, but on a phone it chews up screen that could otherwise be used for displaying porn Aug 10 05:59:06 http://au.lge.com/products/model/detail/mobilephone_touchphone__arena(km900).jhtml Aug 10 05:59:12 http://www.techradar.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/samsung-jet-611815/review Aug 10 05:59:43 raster: put me on the potentially-want-buy list for that phone, i'll buy that LG phone *g* Aug 10 06:00:11 that samsung case looks pretty slick Aug 10 06:00:22 http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchdiamond2/overview.html Aug 10 06:00:27 and external volume buttons are a -must- Aug 10 06:00:38 http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchhd/overview.html Aug 10 06:01:01 an example of the style of phones i'm seeing bandied about as contenders Aug 10 06:01:02 :) Aug 10 06:01:17 raster: as far as the phone has GPS, WLAN and an USB host I'm in Aug 10 06:02:07 in this day and age expect at a minimum gps, 3g, wlan, usb connector (software controlled ie usb gadget). Aug 10 06:02:18 with a cpu minimum the same the iphone 3g has Aug 10 06:02:28 if not 3gs / palm pre level Aug 10 06:02:39 raster: do you have any experience with the palm pre yet? it seems a pretty nice phone and quite open Aug 10 06:02:58 no - no gsm version. cdma only Aug 10 06:03:30 raster: true Aug 10 06:04:57 waiting on that. Aug 10 06:05:20 buty palm arent going to lend a hand in people removing their ui and core system and fixing it to be more open/standard Aug 10 06:05:26 raster: any reports from other folks on how hackable that thing is? Aug 10 06:05:41 ahh ok Aug 10 06:05:50 yes Aug 10 06:06:00 its actually a standard OE based system Aug 10 06:06:08 you can guess the rest from there Aug 10 06:06:12 they did their own ui layer Aug 10 06:06:19 with their own display system engine Aug 10 06:06:38 raster: yeah, i was more asking in the direction, kernel drivers, xorg driver, docu etc Aug 10 06:06:46 no x Aug 10 06:06:49 they did their own Aug 10 06:07:04 based on shared memory blobs of pixel data for the "cards" (windows) Aug 10 06:07:12 raster: it shouldn't be hard to port stuff if these are open / documentation avail Aug 10 06:07:36 not documented Aug 10 06:07:43 some src from webkit hacks Aug 10 06:07:46 so people have figured it out Aug 10 06:07:51 not all of it Aug 10 06:08:01 personbalyl not 100% interested in figureing it out Aug 10 06:08:03 raster: hmmm, so you think it's hard to have hw-accelerated X on it? Aug 10 06:08:10 i'd rather have x on it and ignore palm's stuff Aug 10 06:08:32 if anythgin let ppl work in revers and get the palm webos webkit+cartds mapped to x and windows Aug 10 06:08:47 but it doesnt grab my interest as cant get a gsm pre atm Aug 10 06:08:55 and as i said.. been working on other options Aug 10 06:08:56 :) Aug 10 06:09:09 but x shoudl work Aug 10 06:09:24 not with accel - its an omap3 - accel will mean using the closed sgx (imagination) unit Aug 10 06:09:27 raster: hehe, so please drop me a note as soon as "your option" is avail ;-) Aug 10 06:09:35 its been partly reversed, but u dont need accel as the cpu is really powerful Aug 10 06:10:19 i'll hope that an open(ish) option will exist in time - soon i hope Aug 10 06:10:34 (soon being months as opposed to years) Aug 10 06:11:26 but if i can do something to bring the realisty of a REAL linux platyform to mobiles anjd have it open enough so you can pretty much replace any bit you like with whatever you like.. i'll have considered my job done Aug 10 06:11:26 :) Aug 10 06:11:38 raster: perfect, as i will hopefully have some sparetime in some month :-) Aug 10 06:12:22 chances are u wont get 100% open from the start - but somnething 80% or 90% open with thigns like telephony dameon closed or default out-of-the-box apps closed (contacts, dialler, launcher etc.), 3d (gles) closed etc. Aug 10 06:12:33 but at least enough of it open to start something useful Aug 10 06:13:18 raster: yeah, i think this will be enough for a start, because this still leaves enough pieces to pick up and to fix Aug 10 06:13:28 yup Aug 10 06:13:42 that'd be fine by me. function first, form second, morals third Aug 10 06:14:12 as i said - some bits are just troublesome to open up for various reasons. your choice is "as open as sanely possible" vs no open product at all of any percentage Aug 10 06:14:22 i hope bits get more open over time Aug 10 06:14:59 for many years before getting the gta02, I spent countless hours pounding at 100% closed devices Aug 10 06:15:06 raster: yeah the problem is always, if it works "somewhat closed", why should the vendor open up more? Aug 10 06:15:07 (ask me how much I hate p2k) Aug 10 06:15:30 but i agree, it's important to put a foot into the door Aug 10 06:15:50 dual NAM/dual-sim would be the icing on the cake Aug 10 06:15:57 ndnihil: for the same reaons they opened up some of it Aug 10 06:16:06 expand market - open up possibilities that were not ther ebefore Aug 10 06:16:13 expand market share, size and possibilities Aug 10 06:16:55 for exmaple. the baseband (gsm/2g/3g/hspa etc.) is not theirs Aug 10 06:17:16 in order to write anything that drives the actual telephony - they need to sign hefty nda's with the supplier of those chips. Aug 10 06:17:47 those nda's preclude making public any information from those docs - and that emans the code for the telephony daemon - which is written using those docs, to drive the baseband and make the phone... make calls Aug 10 06:17:53 kind of important Aug 10 06:17:54 :0 Aug 10 06:17:55 :) Aug 10 06:18:47 so its either "device with no working phone at all - and u have an open telephony stack.. ie none, or you get a closed telephony stack and.. have it work." Aug 10 06:19:01 u can avoid the telephony and just do everything over wifi :) Aug 10 06:20:01 raster: that's true, but call me pessimistic, i don't see they feel the urge to ever open up that telephony stack... Aug 10 06:20:20 unfortunately thats out of their hands Aug 10 06:20:29 they can ask nicely, plead and beg, but the decision is not theirs. Aug 10 06:20:51 but if open proves to be a good strategy and sells units - thats actual $ proving that open means good business Aug 10 06:21:03 right now most companies are still wary of it Aug 10 06:21:15 they only recently got their heads around linux being usable at all in products Aug 10 06:21:45 but making your platform ostensibly open (as opposed to just using open thgns like linux and shipping only the src u absolutely must to obey the gpl) is another matter Aug 10 06:22:15 the hope is that opening up becomes stylish and that the chipset vendor is 'forced' to open up on the market... hope dies last *g* Aug 10 06:22:22 bingo Aug 10 06:22:30 so start by putting $ behind the concept of open Aug 10 06:22:36 $ make is stylish Aug 10 06:22:48 then pressure will be put on the suppliers to be more open Aug 10 06:23:12 raster: good luck and drop me a note if you succeed / have something to buy Aug 10 06:23:17 :) Aug 10 06:23:18 will do Aug 10 06:23:22 cool Aug 10 06:23:59 till then i will play around with my gta02 which i hard-tested 4 weeks as a GPS tracker Aug 10 06:24:14 i have to say except for the battery lifetime it is really nice Aug 10 06:27:00 hmm a bit fat for my tasts Aug 10 06:27:05 scree inded is a bad design issue Aug 10 06:27:06 indent Aug 10 06:27:19 rounded ends waste oodles of space Aug 10 06:27:25 slow Aug 10 06:27:26 :) Aug 10 06:27:51 it's more usable than my brokeberry8800 Aug 10 06:28:09 raster: slow? hmmm i mean it could be faster, but for me it is "fast enough" :-) Aug 10 06:29:05 raster: the only thing is really after about 6h of tracking the battery is flat (and i mean completely empty which is sh*t) Aug 10 06:29:35 its stinkingly slow Aug 10 06:29:46 i have a wealth of comparisons on my desk here :) Aug 10 06:30:09 raster: while we are on it. one day illume told me that it couldn't spawn a new process... i had to reboot by removing the battery Aug 10 06:30:30 raster: hehe no comparison, no complain *g* Aug 10 06:59:52 Oh, just as i was going to ask raster about some more details... Aug 10 07:00:13 ndnihil: great news he came with indeed Aug 10 07:00:59 ndnihil: did i understand it right that it will be relatively hard to get free telephony going on that device? Aug 10 07:01:07 ndnihil: did he say something about kernel interfaces? Aug 10 07:01:50 ndnihil: and does that company have an intention to help "free" at least some of the datasheets needed for low-level stuff? Aug 10 07:02:28 well, nothing is set in stone from what I understand Aug 10 07:02:39 so right now it's just a possibility Aug 10 07:02:54 but what he described was an open'ish phone Aug 10 07:03:12 full on linux like we get on the gta02, with binary blobs for things like video, telephony, etc... Aug 10 07:03:40 so not 100% open source Aug 10 07:03:46 but open enough for a start Aug 10 07:04:27 I'd make the compromise using binary blobs in exchange for a highly spec'd mobile device Aug 10 07:04:32 ndnihil: well, devil is in the detail as always Aug 10 07:04:41 yeah Aug 10 07:04:58 ndnihil: if the telephony will be very hard to get right, it would probably suck very much. Aug 10 07:05:16 ndnihil: also i imagine problems with running debian due to packaging issues etc. Aug 10 07:05:34 I think interfacing with their telephony stuff would probably be documented Aug 10 07:05:49 ndnihil: and if they use kernel blobs that would make things even worse. Probably never pushing upstream anything etc. Aug 10 07:06:12 true Aug 10 07:06:31 ndnihil: i can't see any reasons for closing telephony stuff. AFAIK everything "interesting" runs on the separate baseband processor anyway. Aug 10 07:06:45 So that seems to be pointless. Aug 10 07:06:53 as raster described, the telephony bits were coded under NDA Aug 10 07:07:28 I read that. I still can't see any decent reason for that. Aug 10 07:07:34 the docs/specs for the chip are closed Aug 10 07:07:50 ndnihil: who coded it? Aug 10 07:07:52 meaning anything written using that information will be closed too Aug 10 07:08:10 lindi-: dunno, you'd have to ask raster. he didn't mention a specific manufacturer Aug 10 07:08:17 lindi-: company coders. Have you read the backlog where raster told us some interesting stuff? Aug 10 07:08:59 nope Aug 10 07:09:04 you should Aug 10 07:09:11 there is potential on the horizon Aug 10 07:09:12 too busy to read irc :) Aug 10 07:09:13 ndnihil: you know we don't have access to at command specs for calypso, right? Do you think it would change anything if they released those? Either for them or for us? Aug 10 07:09:33 PaulFertser: of course I don't, but they do, and that's what matters :) Aug 10 07:09:56 lindi-: raster is in the process of convincing some big player to release a dev phone in a "sane" way. Aug 10 07:09:56 convincing geeks that open is good is easy, convincing non-technically inclined robots in suits of the same is quite difficult Aug 10 07:10:02 lindi-: iphone 3G-like specs. Aug 10 07:10:55 .oO( is "too busy to read irc" a special case of "TL,DR"? ) Aug 10 07:11:32 ndnihil: no, my point was that hiding those specs was plain stupid, the only really important thing was AT%Nxxx Aug 10 07:11:52 I agree, hiding them is stupid Aug 10 07:12:26 I had to get a friend "in the industry" to get me a simple AT command set doc for a bluetooth chip Aug 10 07:12:38 obnoxious process Aug 10 07:14:20 ndnihil: and btw proprietary drivers are in fact evil. You say you don't mind nvidia crap on your machines? Hm. But it's really crap, they work only with old kernels, sometimes they don't fix obvious bugs for ages, do not work on powerpc etc... Aug 10 07:14:55 i don't like this calypso stuff on my gta02 either :( Aug 10 07:15:10 they're entirely evil, but getting companies to even write binary blob drivers is a step in the right direction Aug 10 07:15:31 it's far better than having them ignore the Linux community entirely Aug 10 07:16:10 ideally it would all be open Aug 10 07:16:16 but people in suits don't have those ideals Aug 10 07:16:30 and they're the ones that make those decisions unfortunately Aug 10 07:22:05 raster: i hope you're open for some more questions ;) Hi and thanks for the great news btw! :D Aug 10 07:22:38 raster: first, what about the kernel and other low-level stuff? Do they plan to have proprietary parts there? Do they have much custom code not in mainline etc? Aug 10 07:23:50 welcome back raster, it seems you've caused a bit of a stir :) Aug 10 07:26:25 PaulFertser: monolithic kernel so it'd be gpl if its in kernel (like it or not) Aug 10 07:27:06 raster: well, i've seen quite some devices (routers/adsl modems) which had proprietary kernel modules. Aug 10 07:27:25 ninlith: uh oh Aug 10 07:27:26 :) Aug 10 07:27:32 err ndnihil uh oh :) Aug 10 07:27:33 oops Aug 10 07:27:37 ninlith: sorry mis-tab Aug 10 07:27:55 raster: also htc dream has some kernel code that is actually understandable and useable. But they could do much more in proprietary userspace and/or obfuscate the kernel code. Aug 10 07:28:51 raster: another important question for my biased low-level pov is whether they'll try to open at least some of the datasheets needed to hack on the low-level. And what about jtag or at least serial console access? Aug 10 07:31:30 jtag - unlikely. not necessary. serial port is a breakout from the usb connector with a breakout box (much like the debug board for gta02) Aug 10 07:31:39 but much simpler Aug 10 07:31:40 :) Aug 10 07:32:08 using a known bootloader? Aug 10 07:32:14 uboot Aug 10 07:32:26 raster: what is the problem with jtag? Aug 10 07:32:39 unnecessary Aug 10 07:32:59 Hm, kernel devs usually think otherwise... Aug 10 07:33:28 and to be honest - there will be access to it somewhere - but i dont think there is any interest in opening it or making it accessible as its simply not needed. Aug 10 07:33:35 u have uboot Aug 10 07:33:39 and serial console Aug 10 07:33:52 kernel devs have lived with less for a long time Aug 10 07:34:00 (desktops) Aug 10 07:34:46 jtag is not a necessity - its a bit of a luxury :) Aug 10 07:35:08 raster: it just drives me mad when you can actually have access to some nice thing but it's hidden for no good reason. Aug 10 07:37:08 i also fail to see why u need it. its not necessary. it's a nice extra. and i know i'm already pushing shit uphill, so i'm not going to push my luck. things that arent necessary arent a priority for me to push to be open. and to be honest, i've never had to touch jtag myself so far except once on a gta02 long before gta02's even had a stable working board (gta02a2 - not even a5/6) Aug 10 07:37:49 I dont use JTAG on anything I didn't make Aug 10 07:38:01 also how many people have jtag equipment to make use of it - a very very very very small % of developers will have it. you need to take small steps - not giant leaps into openness Aug 10 07:38:09 not for any particular reason, just never needed to Aug 10 07:38:44 ndnihil: generally by the time you get your hands on it the usefulness of jtag has passed into obscurity as there is a working bootloader with IO (serial, dfu, etc. etc.) and a working kernel and userspace Aug 10 07:38:48 raster: what about brickability of the device? We have NOR on gta02 for a reason. Aug 10 07:39:07 jtag is a PITA way of getting thigns to/from the device at that point when u have much more mature mechanisms :) Aug 10 07:39:26 agreed Aug 10 07:39:44 PaulFertser: no nor. fuck with flash at the bootloader level and be prepared for bricking. Aug 10 07:39:50 I'd sooner deal with uboot or qi or equivalent than drag out the JTAG hardware and set things up Aug 10 07:40:02 raster: aha, and then you'll have no jtag to flash it back. nice. Aug 10 07:40:09 ie - dont touch the bootloader. let it be. assume ist like the bios on your pc. you dont screw with it. :) Aug 10 07:40:22 * ndnihil screws with his bios Aug 10 07:40:23 ndnihil: indeed. Aug 10 07:40:49 not regularly mind you, but whenever I get a new machine the first thing I do is tweak the bios Aug 10 07:40:53 ndnihil: but you accept the possibility thatr.. if u screw with it thew wrong way, u'll have a motherboard brick... :) Aug 10 07:41:22 but its one thing to change settings, another to reflash the bios entirely Aug 10 07:41:30 true Aug 10 07:41:44 raster: well, for me the fact that jtag is "unlikely" mostly means that hardware itself will be essentially as closed as any other proprietary device :( Aug 10 07:41:48 I only upgrade bios if it's absolutely necessary Aug 10 07:42:10 paul: does your workstation/laptop have JTAG? Aug 10 07:42:33 PaulFertser: pretty much. you wont be gettign schematics etc. you'll be getting something open enough to replace kernel or patch and rebuild it and userspace wil lbe recognisable normal linux (not android) Aug 10 07:42:36 ndnihil: well, quite possibly so. Aug 10 07:42:40 but u'll have binary blobs there too Aug 10 07:42:43 we should get rid of proprietary bioses on PCs too Aug 10 07:42:47 telephony, 3d most likely Aug 10 07:43:00 lindi-: there's an open bios Aug 10 07:43:12 never used it myself, but it looks neat to play with Aug 10 07:43:15 so i'm unsure if jtag matters at all if u still have closed gfx and telephony Aug 10 07:43:21 in the big scheme of things Aug 10 07:43:42 raster: will telephony be really hard to reverse or it's more likely just a matter of doing it so e.g. stefan will be able to support it after a weekend of hacking? Aug 10 07:44:07 very... unlikely Aug 10 07:44:08 :) Aug 10 07:44:13 ndnihil: more like free :) Aug 10 07:44:25 raster: unlikely to be easy to support telephony with FSO? :O Aug 10 07:44:34 correct Aug 10 07:44:38 raster: it's not the case with HTC dream afaik. Aug 10 07:44:42 unless u get official help Aug 10 07:44:49 no at commands Aug 10 07:44:53 :) Aug 10 07:44:57 more i cant tell u Aug 10 07:45:29 raster: i can't express how i appreciate that you already told a lot. Aug 10 07:45:51 if the telephony stuff speaks a documented bus/protocol (ie: dbus), it shouldn't be too bad Aug 10 07:45:54 interesting u complain about jtag - whcih is pretty easy to figure out as once u find the jtag lines - its standard, but not so for telephony. or gfx :) Aug 10 07:46:34 raster: that's why i talk about jtag. If even jtag is closed, that means a lot to me. Aug 10 07:47:06 chances are it wont be documented - but u'll likely fint the jtag lines somewhere and be able to use them with standard jtag equipment Aug 10 07:47:18 I wouldn't call it "closed" if the pads/pins are avilable Aug 10 07:47:20 available Aug 10 07:47:22 Sure, that's my point Aug 10 07:47:24 but i dont see that as something the majority of developers will need/want Aug 10 07:47:52 i dont think u'll get "help" ie nice little headers beautifully laid out and accessible and fully documented Aug 10 07:47:57 but they'll likely be somewhere Aug 10 07:48:16 raster: Well, looks like this device will probably open possibility for something like android market or the like but without stupd restrictions. Aug 10 07:48:25 raster: but not much more. Aug 10 07:49:06 i happen to have one here - well a device, with a nicely labelled jtag header Aug 10 07:49:18 raster: i'm sorry to be so sceptical, just trying to find out more ;) Aug 10 07:49:24 but if it stays visible and labelled and even there in production models - no idea Aug 10 07:50:07 i dont see this as too much less closed than gta02 Aug 10 07:50:18 gta02 has closed gfx Aug 10 07:50:38 gsm/2g is behind an at serial line so the commandset is known Aug 10 07:50:39 raster: but open at command set. Aug 10 07:50:46 (not officially but in fact) Aug 10 07:51:00 but tthe firmware for the modem is closed - same story just missing protocol specs for baseband Aug 10 07:51:20 so its not drastically different Aug 10 07:51:40 i dont care about the open so much as the "linux" bit Aug 10 07:51:43 android != linux Aug 10 07:51:50 Obviously Aug 10 07:51:51 so i dont want it, care for it, etc. Aug 10 07:52:34 raster: ok, what makes it different from htc dream? You can run angstrom or anything on it... Lack of gfx acceleration? Aug 10 07:53:12 htc dream is locked down - u cant replace android Aug 10 07:53:18 the adp1 is not locked Aug 10 07:53:21 the dream is Aug 10 07:53:33 the newer dreams are locked down from bootloader on Aug 10 07:53:54 bootload cant flash an older android to make use of the root bug to get root to finally reflash it Aug 10 07:53:59 mmh... Aug 10 07:54:01 raster: well, the dream is not locked down anymore, is it? There's gold card generator in the wild. Aug 10 07:54:01 htc ACTIVELY wants to lock it down Aug 10 07:54:33 can't anyone hit HTC with a big heap of GPL violation for that? Aug 10 07:54:38 (you can cheat by generating a goldcard that pretends its a mainenance card that will do it - but its hacking around the encryption key checking) Aug 10 07:55:14 PaulFertser: as i mentioned - goldcard can work around it - thats how i did it, but... htc actively is stopping it. they are locking it down more and more all the time and will continue to do so Aug 10 07:55:17 Right. But since it's available and you can even get a subsidised phone and then unlock it, what makes "your" offer more appealing? Aug 10 07:55:36 the maker wont actively stop u Aug 10 07:55:47 it will be open to do as u please Aug 10 07:55:52 That's indeed an important and nice thing. Aug 10 07:55:58 and can't f***ing HSPA chipset suppliers f***ing build their chipsets with GSM07.10 interface and just publish the AT command set? Aug 10 07:56:00 there wont be a bootloader only flashing signed images etc. etc. Aug 10 07:56:25 Wonka: unfortunately not. its the bootloader enforcing it - and thats out of the hands of gpkl Aug 10 07:57:13 Wonka: it makes sense to avoid doing it. that measn everything you do ont he wire needs conversion TO gsm07.10 over a serial link Aug 10 07:57:13 raster: but don't they have to provide tools to make own binaries that run? and if the bootloader doesn't run it, it doesn't "run" in that sense? Aug 10 07:57:43 thats fine if all u do is the occasional call etc. but once u have data-centric devices bringing data sessiosn up and down a lot and pushing lots of data over the connection - you look for more efficient ways Aug 10 07:57:43 yeah, toolchain availability is a pretty big issue Aug 10 07:57:46 raster: what about the other devices by the same manufacturer? Will he continue to actively oppose reversing attempts? Aug 10 07:58:08 eg like simply dumping binrary protocol packets into a shared memory buffer that both sides read/write Aug 10 07:58:13 does gcc already do whatever architecture this mystery phone uses? Aug 10 07:58:25 it makes technical sense in the world of trying to converve power Aug 10 07:58:32 raster: mh, more than one real TTY, and PPP directly on one of them? Aug 10 07:58:53 Wonka: interfacing 3G modem is a very interesting topic ;) Aug 10 07:59:15 as for gpl - no. gpl does not require anything beyond you making the source available (on request) of the gpl software that was the basis for building your product Aug 10 07:59:15 _some_ sort of standardized interface at least Aug 10 07:59:22 (and derivative code too) Aug 10 07:59:32 Wonka: probably one of the good approaches is to implement a USB cdc_ether interface. But you'll have other problems with that. Aug 10 07:59:34 toolchain has nothing to do with it Aug 10 07:59:44 and bootloader is orthogonal to even that Aug 10 08:00:27 PaulFertser: depends. other products if they run somkething else (android, winmo, symbian, whatever) are "other products". they are orthogonal to the issue :) Aug 10 08:00:40 hm. i'd need to read GPL2 again, but I seem to remember there was a requirement to provide as much stuff as is needed to generate working binaries from the sources Aug 10 08:01:11 PaulFertser: that'd be a great way to do it (cdc_ether) Aug 10 08:01:22 raster: it's about attitude. Either you want to fuck up devs (like apple does with iphones) or not (like Palm did with their treo). Aug 10 08:01:32 and have the modem firmware pretend to be a usb ethernet device - fake dhcp daemon etc. Aug 10 08:01:52 .oO( why IP? ) Aug 10 08:02:02 but - your baseband firmware complexity (and powewr/cpu requirements) get really heavy Aug 10 08:02:16 i think everyone wants to remove as much complexity as they can and punt it off into the phone os Aug 10 08:02:32 raster: also usb will require reenumeration after you put the main cpu to suspend etc. Aug 10 08:02:34 they already have 2 cpu cores Aug 10 08:02:36 memory mapped "serial" Aug 10 08:02:40 they'd love to get rid of 1 if they can Aug 10 08:02:44 raster: oh btw, what about zero-clock? Aug 10 08:02:52 raster: or other power-saving measures? Aug 10 08:03:14 and u manage that by simplifying what the baseband does so it can be simpler "transistors" as oppos3ed to whole cpus + os's and firmware on them Aug 10 08:03:15 :") Aug 10 08:03:34 as for attitude - can' Aug 10 08:03:58 as for attitude - can't comment there. no one is currently company-and-all going into linux and open on phones Aug 10 08:04:13 anyone who has (openmoko) is so tiny they vanish overnight Aug 10 08:04:26 raster: going into open is one thing. Actively screwing independent devs is another... Aug 10 08:05:44 "we don't care about the interface, as long as it is open (enough). if you don't want a whole cpu on your side, leave it out - but design and open a good interface." Aug 10 08:06:10 large companies (nokia, motorola, lg, samsung, sony ericsson, htc etc.) are large enough that you can have just a small division/group do this and that group is by far bigger, stronger and more influential than someone like openmoko (a whole company), so it's pretty moot as long as it is happening and supported. it may be a matter of hedging bets. someone isnt going to bet the entire multi-billion dollar company on an open phone. they ma Aug 10 08:06:11 y be willing to "try it" ans see how it goes first on a small scale. if it fails they may happily wipe their hands and go "well that sucked" and move on without major risk. Aug 10 08:06:16 (ok, to speak gsm and because of timing constraints, that seems to be hard) Aug 10 08:06:42 and yes - screwing devs sucks Aug 10 08:06:47 apple is king of that Aug 10 08:08:10 and anyone who comes along with something technically as good, with similar infrastructure (easy software distribution system, actually be open and allow anything), and can produce and sell in large numbers and produce good hw and software to match, is likely to do a fine job of sucking devs away from apple and producing just what we want Aug 10 08:08:25 you wont beat apple by playing by their rules. Aug 10 08:08:39 you wont beat apple if u are a tiny company with no resources Aug 10 08:09:34 imho your chance of getting the spotlight away from apple to you is to "be different" and imho that isnt android. android is the commodity os for those who arent into any os at all and will just write for anything that blinks an led :) Aug 10 08:10:04 if u want the linux developer base to get on your boat - you need to play nice to them. and you need to start somewhere. Aug 10 08:10:47 raster: does the kernel for that device have good chances to get upstream? Aug 10 08:11:20 yes Aug 10 08:11:49 u're going to get problems just due to "benign incompetence" Aug 10 08:11:56 ie not wanting to actively keep things out of upstream Aug 10 08:12:12 simply not knowing what to do and how to do it in the right way with minimum effort to get it there Aug 10 08:12:29 ie not stupid peolpe who dont know how to code Aug 10 08:12:45 but more they just are not used to the way the kernel world and other oss worlds work :) Aug 10 08:12:55 morning Aug 10 08:12:56 raster: (probably unrelated) there were several attempts to mass-produce a semi-open GNU/Linux-based PDAs. I think zaurus was pretty popular among geeks. What's the reason now i can't see any linux-based PDA in the shop nearby? Aug 10 08:13:16 zaurus - qt. Aug 10 08:13:24 people wtarted writign apps then stopped Aug 10 08:13:32 they either had to pay qt for a dev kit+license Aug 10 08:13:34 or write gpl apps Aug 10 08:13:43 raster: (kernel) some corporate programmers write drivers in a way that'll never be accepted upstream so the only possibility is to rewrite them. It'll make harder getting kernel upstream. Aug 10 08:13:58 gpl apps didnt make money and there was no "app store" Aug 10 08:14:18 raster: what was the problem with running X on the devices? Aug 10 08:14:22 not to mention the installbase was fairly small to begin with - zaurus came out towards the middle-to-end of the pda craze Aug 10 08:14:39 and only 1 model (the sl5500/5600) ever made it out of japan Aug 10 08:14:58 zaurus continued to do relatively well in japan for a while after (and before) with lots of other zaurus models there Aug 10 08:15:34 and x worked on the devices Aug 10 08:15:39 ho the sl5500 was only 32m ram Aug 10 08:15:48 that was a bit of a limiting factor Aug 10 08:16:07 also linux was still not accepted as a "viable os" for embedded Aug 10 08:16:11 it was early days still Aug 10 08:16:13 now its accepted Aug 10 08:16:23 but its being twisted into the wrong way Aug 10 08:23:19 swiss army knife of OS's Aug 10 08:23:49 runs on everything from top 5 superclusters down to my girlfriends tomtom Aug 10 08:26:34 indeed Aug 10 08:26:42 that makes it one interesting os Aug 10 08:26:57 yep, and I'm lucky to make a living dicking around with it Aug 10 08:28:03 I probably would have gone the hari-kiri route if I had to deal with windows Aug 10 08:28:10 that shit is so frustrating Aug 10 08:29:15 lucky to make a living... dicking around :) Aug 10 08:29:33 tried to copy some pictures off SD card to GF's mothers computer, instead of a quick copy/paste, it wanted to set up some kind of media center, import things, give me a recipe for cheesecake, and suck off the homeless guy downtown before it wanted to show me the friggen pictures Aug 10 08:31:28 you know you wanted the cheesecake Aug 10 08:33:57 there is no cake! Aug 10 08:34:35 eat your cake! Aug 10 08:43:36 raster: please don't understand me wrong, i think that's really good news and it's unbelievably cool to see you working on making that happen. Aug 10 08:44:20 it may not be everything you want Aug 10 08:44:28 but... got to start somewhere Aug 10 09:42:46 raster: !! :-D Aug 10 09:46:43 raster: how's life? Aug 10 09:54:56 yoyo joerg! Aug 10 09:55:01 wassap! Aug 10 09:59:59 http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif O.o Aug 10 10:02:35 Wonka: dont use disk dmnit! Aug 10 10:02:36 :) Aug 10 10:03:05 what about Flash? uSDHC class 4? Aug 10 10:03:34 latency lower for sure Aug 10 10:03:46 thats a pc Aug 10 10:04:03 ram latency and cache *only 1 level depending on the SoC) will be different too Aug 10 10:04:18 latency and throughput are different values as well Aug 10 10:04:33 13.7ms would be a random seek to anywhere Aug 10 10:04:54 once u are at the data reading it sequentially would be very fast on a disk (spinning media - ie hdd) Aug 10 10:05:12 i should pull 40-80mb/sec no problems on modern disks Aug 10 10:05:40 I cant wait for the price on SSD to come down Aug 10 10:06:18 ssd is nice Aug 10 10:06:28 for some things it rocks, for others, u barely notice Aug 10 10:06:41 it mostly depends "how much is cached in ram already?" Aug 10 10:06:59 eg if u have lots of ram (2gb or more) a lot of your fs wil lbe cached most of the time once its been paged in Aug 10 10:07:16 of course initial boot and gettign data in to start with is faster, but after than its moot Aug 10 10:07:49 editing video and audio would notice Aug 10 10:07:50 a lot Aug 10 10:08:01 bwahahaha, just found a bug in matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod_0.0+svnr1910-r10_armv4t.ipk... Aug 10 10:08:02 ndnihil: dont think so. Aug 10 10:08:15 as u deal with large bits of contiguous data Aug 10 10:08:17 /usr/share/applications/inputmethods/matchbox-keyboard.desktop has a typo: Aug 10 10:08:22 that plays out well for hdd's Aug 10 10:08:26 (in general) Aug 10 10:08:27 "X-MB-INPUT-MECHANSIM=True" should maybe be "MECHANISM" Aug 10 10:09:24 as long as the code has the same typo to look at X-* attributes of a .desktop.. it's not a bug Aug 10 10:09:28 its just ugly spelling Aug 10 10:09:29 :) Aug 10 10:10:48 mh. neither way it shows up in illume settings under "keyboard"... Aug 10 10:10:51 I noticed a huge difference going from 7200rpm drives to 12k(or 15k maybe) in my audio machine Aug 10 10:10:57 only illume keyboard and gridpad Aug 10 10:11:27 ndnihil: higher spin rates will also improve xfer times accordingly i think - as well as access times Aug 10 10:11:29 :) Aug 10 10:11:44 yeah, that's why I'm thinking SSD would be even better Aug 10 10:11:53 Wonka: it actually looks for categories for the app Aug 10 10:12:04 if in category Keyboard - it adds it Aug 10 10:12:04 :) Aug 10 10:12:29 ndnihil: well i havew one in my laptop - and the only really noticable things are startup times and rsync Aug 10 10:12:42 everything else is "moot" Aug 10 10:12:49 dont notice Aug 10 10:12:54 ah, thx Aug 10 10:13:02 one vi later... Aug 10 10:13:17 SHR much more usable with my german matchbox layout Aug 10 10:13:22 i think cateogries are the best field for that Aug 10 10:13:29 it means in other de's the app can stil be listed in menus Aug 10 10:13:33 so u can launch/run the kbd Aug 10 10:13:46 but in illume it doesnt put it in the launcher - it puts it somewhere special Aug 10 10:13:47 :) Aug 10 10:15:25 no criticism from me Aug 10 10:16:12 now i just need to find out how to build those packages myself Aug 10 10:16:20 and then i can go make matchbox-keyboard better Aug 10 10:17:39 altgr-shift seems not to work - but no wonder Aug 10 10:17:51 that "XML" used for defining layouts is... borked Aug 10 10:18:19 with inside... Aug 10 10:18:28 Aug 10 10:19:01 anyone got an idea how to make that better? Aug 10 10:31:30 raster: is the focus handling (incl auto kbd popup) when switching windows a generic duty of illume/E*/whatever? Aug 10 10:32:00 raster: it's random flakey Aug 10 11:11:01 hello all, i had a gsm-problem since the last upgrade in shr-unstable Aug 10 11:11:02 http://pastebin.org/7854 Aug 10 11:11:09 could someone help me? Aug 10 11:11:28 ah, i see it in the topic Aug 10 11:11:37 damn.. :s Aug 10 11:57:35 still not safe to upgrade shr-unstable? Aug 10 11:58:51 xyzz: yes, still unsafe Aug 10 11:59:14 best working distro?(except debian) Aug 10 12:10:38 SHR Aug 10 12:11:45 xyzz: I'll change #chan topic as soon as it's fixed Aug 10 12:12:03 om2009 released date? Aug 10 12:12:20 see chan topic Aug 10 12:12:37 oooh,sorry om2009 no idea Aug 10 13:51:56 openmoko: 03werner * r5414 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (12 files): (log message trimmed) Aug 10 13:51:56 openmoko: - File>Save now saves to a file if a second name is given on the command line, Aug 10 13:51:56 openmoko: to stdout if not Aug 10 13:51:56 openmoko: - there's no reason anymore to disallow editing the offset in new-style Aug 10 13:51:56 openmoko: measurements Aug 10 13:51:57 openmoko: - struct inst_ops is no longer opaque, so we can avoid adding even more silly Aug 10 13:52:01 openmoko: little access functions and open-code straightforward callbacks Aug 10 15:12:29 all Aug 10 15:13:11 openmoko: 03werner * r5415 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (dump.c gui_tool.c sc89.fpd): Aug 10 15:13:11 openmoko: - trying to place a frame reference upset the overlay state and caused an abort Aug 10 15:13:11 openmoko: - dump any undumped non-measurements before the measurements Aug 10 15:13:11 openmoko: - finished sc89.fpd, with the full set of measurements Aug 10 15:46:02 hi Aug 10 16:23:33 doesn't hava mkfs.vfat?where I can found it? Aug 10 16:25:32 ~botsnack Aug 10 16:25:32 :), DocScrutinizer Aug 10 16:26:44 ~botsnack Aug 10 16:26:44 :), argiris_ Aug 10 16:29:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=mkfs.vfat&go=Go Aug 10 16:29:43 opkg install dosfstools Aug 10 16:30:43 DocScrutinizer: ping Aug 10 16:31:18 pong Aug 10 16:32:00 DocScrutinizer: Vasco Nova joke: Q. It looks like every HW problem in the Freerunner is solved with a Aug 10 16:32:03 larger capacitor. What do you think went wrong in the design process? Aug 10 16:32:06 A. I think it was a lack of capacity. Aug 10 16:32:27 hehehe Aug 10 16:32:31 I guess it was a charged working environment Aug 10 16:32:35 DocScrutinizer: i wanted to tell you the result of my talk with our cell phone repair guys. Aug 10 16:32:49 too much resistance to change Aug 10 16:33:52 DocScrutinizer: so i went today to a place where there's plenty of small shops selling CDs, DVDs, laptops, digital cameras etc. There were quite some small repair shops there too. I talked to ~5 guys. Aug 10 16:33:58 scribbled under a door with sign "NO ADMITTANCE" - "infinite impedance?" (-: Aug 10 16:34:21 or a diode fitted the wrong way Aug 10 16:34:32 DocScrutinizer: don't know why, probably the place was wrong or they didn't like my look but most of them seemed to be tough, rude and unsympathetic. Aug 10 16:34:46 argi: please don't /msg me with channel topics Aug 10 16:35:36 ???anyway Installing dosfstools (2.11-r0.1) to root...An error ocurred, return value: 17. Aug 10 16:35:38 DocScrutinizer: I asked them about changing one 0402 R (for the buzzfix). The general attitude is: you want something special, we don't much like it. And if you're so smart go screw^W solder yourself. Aug 10 16:35:42 !!! Aug 10 16:35:51 PaulFertser, sounds like the repairers were only interested in mass-market handsets Aug 10 16:36:08 did you do 'opkg update' first? Aug 10 16:36:39 Paul: well, yes. But not everyone has the right tools, nor good enough eye sight Aug 10 16:36:58 amarsh04: yes, quite possibly so. Probably they used to not trust customers and couldn't believe i really know what to do. They say pay us and use our tool to do soldering yourself if you think it's so easy. Or go buy yourself a soldering iron. Aug 10 16:37:08 I understand the fix, but it's not something I would have attempted myself Aug 10 16:38:05 yes i did opkg update first Aug 10 16:38:15 DocScrutinizer: so the nicest guy i found looked at my disassembeled device, said that the work itself is very-very easy and that he suggests to charge ~$30 for that. Or if the customer is a really nice guy probably ~15. Aug 10 16:38:52 cost me $15 in shipping Aug 10 16:39:04 hmm, that's what I'd expect to be a reasonable prize Aug 10 16:39:11 price, too Aug 10 16:39:44 Chocky: well, i was going to do it myself but it was so convenient to do it at work so my coworker did it for me. Despite that i later desoldered the wire going to the cap and resoldered it again at home with an inappropriate soldering iron just to prove that's easy. Aug 10 16:40:17 paulf: no doubt. But most people aren't HW engineers. Aug 10 16:40:25 DocScrutinizer: TBH i didn't expect them to be so rude. Probably get used to talking to nice people too much ;) Aug 10 16:40:36 Chocky: neither am i. Aug 10 16:41:01 PaulFertser: you should join cdevel to cure this ;-) Aug 10 16:41:10 well, I think you probably are to an extent, in the same way I am. Most SW developers shouldn't be trusted with a soldering iron. Aug 10 16:41:23 I had a telco tech in my room yesterday... it helped that I had the adsl modem's diagnostics page up on the pc and a textbook on Signalling System #7 on the shelf in easy view, plus a an old Telebit modem on the shelf Aug 10 16:42:11 DocScrutinizer: rude people at cdevel? Who? I thought i'm the meanest there ;) Aug 10 16:42:30 (well, after Ainu ;) ) Aug 10 16:42:31 ainu and tasn started a fight Aug 10 16:42:49 DocScrutinizer, :( Aug 10 16:42:49 PaulFertser: I'm not mean :-) Aug 10 16:42:59 It wasn't really that much of a fight. Aug 10 16:43:02 I just don't like to be fiddled with Aug 10 16:43:21 Ainulindale: hm, that makes me the first then! Yay :D Aug 10 16:43:52 Installing dosfstools (2.11-r0.1) to root... Aug 10 16:43:52 Upgrading libgcc1 on root from 4.1.2-r18 to 4.2.4-r5.1... Aug 10 16:43:52 Collected errors: Aug 10 16:43:52 * ERROR: Package libgcc1 (parent libgcc1) is not available from any configured src. Aug 10 16:44:53 arg: what distro are you using? Aug 10 16:45:06 2008.08 Aug 10 16:45:10 hah. Aug 10 16:45:29 Please install SHR. see topic, etc. Aug 10 16:45:33 argiris_: that is old and deprecated. Aug 10 16:45:39 argiris_: before it was released ;) Aug 10 16:45:55 you'll have a lot more luck with dosfstools then Aug 10 16:46:10 I will install debian but i need mkfs.vfat for the installation script Aug 10 16:46:29 you can format on your PC. Aug 10 16:46:42 and you won't fit Debian on the internal flash, so you should update that anyway Aug 10 16:46:50 argiris_: ah, that Aug 10 16:46:56 otherwise you're just fighting old stuff Aug 10 16:46:56 argiris_: are you sure you want to use u-boot? Aug 10 16:47:13 argiris_: because if you are ok with Qi you can avoid creating a fat partition. Aug 10 16:47:44 ag: and please, "Chocky:", not "" Aug 10 16:48:00 argiris_: with special QI_whatever parameter install.sh will use a single ext3 partition. Aug 10 16:48:13 PaulFertser: I thought a mix-grilled of partition would be better Aug 10 16:48:23 like a BBQ? Aug 10 16:48:34 ;-) Aug 10 16:48:36 * Chocky wonders what "mix-grilled" means Aug 10 16:48:39 argiris_: not for Qi Aug 10 16:48:53 where's Dave when I need him. Aug 10 16:48:54 argiris_: and debian in fact doesn't like keeping kernels on vfat. Aug 10 16:49:02 ~seen Dave Aug 10 16:49:04 dave was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 60d 21h 48m 28s ago, saying: ' are you using Windows?, Dave'. Aug 10 16:49:18 yes, 60 days ago. It was a rhetorhical question :p Aug 10 16:49:29 (sp) Aug 10 16:49:45 I'm not sure why you'd mention that Debian has issues with VFAT Aug 10 16:50:02 unless we're talking about on x86, but that's a completely different topic. Aug 10 16:50:12 the kernel is loaded long before Debian sees it Aug 10 16:50:26 Chocky: it in fact has. When you update the kernel dpkg wants to have some timestamps or something not present on vfat. Aug 10 16:50:39 as I said. Aug 10 16:51:03 you'd probably not be using a packaged kerenl for FR on Debian, in any case Aug 10 16:51:15 Chocky: http://www.mail-archive.com/smartphones-userland@linuxtogo.org/msg00179.html Aug 10 16:51:18 Chocky:If i create 1part vfat,1 part ext3 &1part swap will debian installation script change the partitions? Aug 10 16:51:32 you probably don't want to use swap Aug 10 16:51:37 Chocky: why not? Folks package kernels for FR and quite possibly debian users want to use it. Aug 10 16:52:01 argiris_: and if and when you do, you just create some file and use it for swap. Aug 10 16:52:17 PaulFe: mostly because all of the Debian-based distros on for FR supply separate kernel already. not that you can't, etc. Aug 10 16:52:25 argiris_: just read the damn script, it's easy. Aug 10 16:52:39 anyway, he needs to RTFM Aug 10 16:52:46 and install SHR, perhaps Aug 10 16:53:36 Chocky: i'm not sure, i think Debian on FR uses a packaged kernel by default. And i'm not talking about neovento (which is a dirty fork) or H:1 (i forgot everything i knew about them). Aug 10 16:53:52 Paul: well, I _am_ sure, since I tried them all :p Aug 10 16:54:08 woo, pb_ Aug 10 16:54:24 * SpeedEvil looks at pb_. Aug 10 16:55:24 Speed: is that wise? Aug 10 16:57:11 anyway, off to fight with Firefox 3.6 Aug 10 17:06:37 3.6? Aug 10 17:06:44 yessir Aug 10 17:06:46 And will it even run on FR? Aug 10 17:06:52 If not - why not? Aug 10 17:06:53 Don't see why not Aug 10 17:07:00 There's nothing magical about it Aug 10 17:07:04 yeah. Aug 10 17:07:33 I tried compiling I think it was 2 for FR - but it diddn't go past the profilemanager before segfaulting Aug 10 17:07:45 not that a nominally desktop browser is a neccesarily a good idea for a phone Aug 10 17:08:17 I dunno Aug 10 17:08:43 Fairly recently I've used 1.5 on a 64M PII/300 class machine Aug 10 17:08:46 and it was quite OK Aug 10 17:09:37 it's not the performance I'm concerned about, it's the UI Aug 10 17:09:55 although 1.5 is really a substantially different codebase to 3.x. And the latter is allegedly faster Aug 10 17:33:03 i had some firefox 3.0.x running on freerunner some time ago Aug 10 17:33:04 sloooooow Aug 10 17:33:07 but it was working ;) Aug 10 17:33:43 3 is lots slower than 2 IME. Aug 10 17:33:52 3.5 may be a better bet Aug 10 17:34:01 For me it's a fair bit faster. Aug 10 17:34:10 I wonder if tracemonkey does arm Aug 10 17:35:57 Firefox is a pig, to be honest. Aug 10 17:37:04 At least the tools to help are over the horizon. Aug 10 17:37:12 Profiling memory usage in use Aug 10 17:48:42 if you load nand boot menu and you did flash from uboot to Qi.It will be ok? Aug 10 17:49:14 * Chocky tries to parse that. Aug 10 17:49:17 er, um, yes. Aug 10 18:02:08 hrmf. where does the digital clock in SHR's Illume come from? And why doesn't debian's Illume have it? Aug 10 18:38:59 ok I have shr.I get app execution error while opening contacts Aug 10 18:40:43 any recommends for an rss reader? Aug 10 18:46:09 if uBoot mmcinit gives manufacturer 0 and serial # 80ff00 amidst a bunch of timeouts, I suppse that qualifies as "not supported" ;) Aug 10 18:52:45 no worries, guy in shop allowed me to test, so 2.6.24 kernel can read it. Wiki supported SD cards page updated. Aug 10 19:13:12 So where do I go to request packages be added to SHR repos? Aug 10 19:15:11 I think you have to climb K2, and declaim the request in french - while dressed in a hot-pink kimono. Aug 10 19:15:38 Oops - sorry - that's for getting a bug fixed in flash. Aug 10 19:17:02 SpeedEvil: I don't believe you. There is no way to get a bug fixed in flash. Aug 10 19:17:32 I think I've gone on about the internationalisation bug before. Aug 10 19:17:34 Insane. Aug 10 19:17:37 Digital_Pioneer: the other day, TAsn sounded like you had to do nothing more than open a ticket in the SHR bugtracker and provide enough information on where to find the sources Aug 10 19:18:12 Wonka: Well, what I want packaged has no sources. :) I want the nEo themes packaged. Aug 10 19:18:27 Actually, they are packaged. I just want them in a repo. Aug 10 19:18:56 There is a nEo theme metapackage that deps all of them, and I want it in a repo so it's useful. Aug 10 19:23:03 hrm. »W: GPG error: http://pkg-fso.alioth.debian.org unstable Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1249744278« Aug 10 19:27:52 ;D Aug 10 19:31:45 Digital_Pioneer: hm, then just open a ticket ;) Aug 10 19:33:53 just dropping by to say cudos to whoever cleaned up the images dir of shr-unstable Aug 10 19:34:03 heh Aug 10 19:34:19 was lots of crazy stuff in there Aug 10 19:35:44 that's the least you can say Aug 10 19:36:11 any updates on the "I break GSM"-upgrade on shr, I see that upgrading is still not a good idea Aug 10 19:38:29 no one here has an idea who's working on it ? Aug 10 19:46:31 sometimes, when i plug in usb, my host terminal logs "device not accepting address 90, error -71" Aug 10 19:46:36 any idea why? Aug 10 19:46:41 (shr unstable) Aug 10 19:46:58 no idea, sorry Aug 10 19:47:01 (just before that current broken upgrade) Aug 10 20:59:37 freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * r2d8026109cfe 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/ (pimb_sqlite_dates.py pimd_dates.py): Aug 10 20:59:37 freesmartphone.org: opimd: add Dates domain and SQLite-Dates backend Aug 10 20:59:37 freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak Aug 10 20:59:40 freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * rf3b0b98412dc 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: Aug 10 20:59:41 freesmartphone.org: opimd: Dates: fixed indentiation error and removed unused method GetDatesOfDayByTimestamp Aug 10 20:59:44 freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak Aug 10 20:59:46 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r2dc20610d873 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: don't reference do Contacts in code anymore Aug 10 20:59:49 freesmartphone.org: 03zimmermann 07dos/opimd-tracking * r80d52fb75511 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/opimd.py: Aug 10 20:59:52 freesmartphone.org: opimd: include Dates domain and SQLite-Dates backend when loading Aug 10 20:59:54 freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak Aug 10 20:59:56 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * rfa3c5537efce 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: fix syntax error Aug 10 21:00:05 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r0122e7730c1a 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/helpers.py: opimd: helpers: add InvalidData dbus error Aug 10 21:00:08 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07dos/opimd-tracking * r5aa05e19ce1f 10framework/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_dates.py: opimd: Dates: raise correct dbus error (InvalidData) Aug 10 21:02:31 openmoko: 03werner * r5416 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (10 files): Aug 10 21:02:31 openmoko: - added KiCad output Aug 10 21:02:31 openmoko: - when saving a file, we now make a backup of any existing file with the same Aug 10 21:02:31 openmoko: name **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Aug 10 21:05:15 2009 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 10 23:46:19 2009 Aug 10 23:49:00 * Kero wonders which scripts mounts all his SD partitions... Aug 10 23:52:38 there is a mount -a, but where does it take its info from? must be blind, found it easily on 20090703, can't see it on 20090808 Aug 10 23:53:55 /etc/fstab Aug 10 23:55:20 that's not containing all my partitions! Aug 10 23:55:31 well, it is now, in the hopes things get better Aug 10 23:56:04 grep mmcblk /etc/init.d/* Aug 10 23:56:17 or not Aug 10 23:56:22 (doesnt return anything) Aug 10 23:56:32 fstab is what is used by 'mount -a' though Aug 11 00:00:08 did the same... something too intelligent going on... Aug 11 00:01:02 why on earth is /dev/mtdblock4 set to / in /etc/fstab... I can reboot now, tsjees. Aug 11 00:02:44 alarm going off ! bit silly... Aug 11 00:10:22 PaulFertser: sure, 20090808 wakes up from suspend on incoming call. Aug 11 00:12:51 and that after a warm reboot, come to think of it. Aug 11 00:21:02 * Kero boots FSO from SD... Aug 11 00:21:23 so now I can remove FSO from NAND and put a kernel in its place Aug 11 00:59:19 * Kero growls at the automount of my new kernel partition... as jffs2... seems kernel is unharmed, tho. Aug 11 01:02:31 but what do I get? a beautiful battery applet :) and a failed warm boot w.r.t. gsm activation. it's the kernel, I tell you. not the scripts! Aug 11 01:11:15 and an alarm tht wakes up the neo. progress. Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: 03werner * r5417 10/trunk/eda/fped/ (Makefile gui.c postscript.c postscript.h): Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: - change file save logic to write to a temporary file first, so that we don't Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: leave an empty/corrupt main file if we crash during saving Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: - started adding Postscript output Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: - renamed "Save as KiCad" to "Write KiCad" Aug 11 01:20:18 openmoko: - switched from "manual" menu bar creation to GtkItemFactory Aug 11 02:01:36 hio um guys should one apply the gsm firmware patch ? Aug 11 02:02:42 yes Aug 11 02:02:50 if ones firmware is prior to moko11 Aug 11 02:03:01 mmontour: how do i know ? Aug 11 02:03:08 its a gta2 Aug 11 02:03:24 depends on what dist you're running, but something like settings->phone info Aug 11 02:03:32 ah shr Aug 11 02:04:51 moko-8? Aug 11 02:05:17 mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device org.freesmartphone.GSM.Device.GetInfo 2>/dev/null Aug 11 02:05:19 gta02bv5 gsm..... amd8_ts0-Moko8 Aug 11 02:05:22 the revision line Aug 11 02:05:36 moko8 is broken, upgrade it to 11 Aug 11 02:07:07 the bootable uSD method is the easiest Aug 11 02:07:14 and least likely to brick your phone :) Aug 11 02:08:09 does anyone in here sync their google calendar with their freerunner? Aug 11 02:08:15 heh, mine's even older: 'revision': '"HW: GTA02BV5, GSM: gsm_ac_gp_fd_pu_em_cph_ds_vc_cal35_ri_36_amd8_ts0-Moko7"'}... was moko7 worse than 8?... or was that a very good year? :-) Aug 11 02:08:23 drascus321: yeah -> gcalicli Aug 11 02:08:27 you need 11 :) Aug 11 02:08:30 ndnihil: its been ok for me tho Aug 11 02:08:33 ndnihil: no problems. Aug 11 02:08:35 'revision': '"GSM: gsm_ac_gp_fd_pu_em_cph_ds_vc_cal35_ri_36_amd8_ts0-Moko11" Aug 11 02:08:40 why should iupgrade ? Aug 11 02:08:44 I had issues before going to 11 Aug 11 02:08:51 dont recall what version it was prior though Aug 11 02:08:58 d1b that runs on SHR Aug 11 02:08:59 ? Aug 11 02:09:05 drascus321: nope :) Aug 11 02:09:12 in fact, most people seem to have issues before the upgrade Aug 11 02:09:26 on what d1b? Aug 11 02:09:36 ndnihil: no idea. Aug 11 02:09:49 so how are you using it? Aug 11 02:09:59 what's it with the 3g sims ? Aug 11 02:10:02 wasn't* Aug 11 02:10:07 drascus321: ssh to debian Aug 11 02:10:09 or debian chroot Aug 11 02:10:13 ahh Aug 11 02:11:01 ndnihil: well its fine for my phone providers Aug 11 02:11:07 :) so ill upgrade maybe later Aug 11 02:11:23 *shrug* Aug 11 02:11:24 drascus321: i also have a script to just wget and use vim on a xml feed of the calendar Aug 11 02:11:29 ndnihil: exactly :) Aug 11 02:11:34 its "working " for me Aug 11 02:11:39 i don't want to touch it atm Aug 11 02:11:54 I think DocScrutinizer or PaulFertser might have a better idea of what is fixed in the upgrade Aug 11 02:12:32 I'm completely out of ideas ATM. Borked my image Aug 11 02:12:46 >:-(( Aug 11 02:12:53 what'd you do? Aug 11 02:15:45 install a bunch of packages and copy the modules to the rootfs (uSD) Aug 11 02:15:57 NO UPGRADE Aug 11 02:16:47 cant roll back the changes? Aug 11 02:17:18 to whom it may concern: moko11 fixes problems with modern SIM, and data loss due to missing/flaked hw-flowcontrol, and issue with missing calls due to no resume from first suspend after boot Aug 11 02:17:49 ndnihil: no idea how to do that Aug 11 02:17:53 yet Aug 11 02:18:10 I'm pissed, and swap to spare phone for tonaight Aug 11 02:21:16 prolly a good reason to augment my opkg-u script, and then reflash tomorrow when those nasties with wrong opkg-cl name, no suspend after sms, and a few others are fixed (and I HOPE they are tomorrow eve) Aug 11 02:21:46 night Aug 11 02:22:47 later Aug 11 02:24:47 s/swap to spare phone/use spare (old) rootfs in nand/ Aug 11 02:47:43 DocScrutinizer: boo! Aug 11 02:47:56 boohoohooo Aug 11 02:48:00 ;-( Aug 11 02:48:05 how goes man! Aug 11 02:48:25 just borked my shr-rootfs Aug 11 02:48:34 that sux Aug 11 02:48:41 yo Aug 11 02:48:44 is it.. your phone? Aug 11 02:49:03 well, think so :-) Aug 11 02:49:24 like your day-to-day one? Aug 11 02:49:31 yup Aug 11 02:49:41 ouch Aug 11 02:50:10 fix fix! Aug 11 02:50:23 well, the image was 2days old and hadn't seen more than a few hours of configuring work Aug 11 02:50:41 have a spare image on NAND ;-) Aug 11 02:50:50 aaah good 'ol backup Aug 11 02:51:05 more like fallback Aug 11 02:51:37 at least it works Aug 11 02:51:51 anyway sucks, as I don't think I did anything particularly nasty to the new one Aug 11 02:52:23 u were running off sd? Aug 11 02:53:11 installed a few images (people/joerg/unsorted/opkg-u), and then added the untared modules as it didn't mount jffs2 NAND Aug 11 02:53:24 yup off sd Aug 11 02:53:38 well thats easy to make backups of then Aug 11 02:53:51 yes Aug 11 02:54:04 regularly plug into pc and just cat /dev/sdX > backup.img Aug 11 02:54:47 hmm, I'd probably more interesed in the xchat config, and tango maps Aug 11 02:55:06 to copy back after flashing new image Aug 11 02:55:28 at least now Aug 11 02:55:48 copy virgin image from pc to uSD is a snap Aug 11 02:56:12 yeah Aug 11 02:56:18 u just need to regularly backup the img Aug 11 02:56:37 easy enough to do over usb too from the live running system Aug 11 02:57:02 yes Aug 11 02:58:13 raster: there's an annoying random issue with focus when switching windows Aug 11 02:58:36 hmmm Aug 11 02:58:46 shouldnt be? Aug 11 02:58:49 describe? Aug 11 02:59:17 raster: i.e. sometimes switching "right side" doesn't work at all, then when you switch left side Aug 11 02:59:30 odd Aug 11 02:59:36 the 2 arrows at the top? Aug 11 02:59:47 and back to vala-term, kbd doesn't come up (due to missing focus) Aug 11 02:59:54 yup 2 arrows Aug 11 02:59:57 then **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 11 02:59:57 2009