**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 18 02:59:57 2009
Oct 18 06:48:50 <slaxxer> whatisit
Oct 18 06:53:04 <slaxxer> http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/unstable/
Oct 18 06:53:15 <slaxxer> anybody install these?
Oct 18 07:36:54 <m0nt0> bye bye!!
Oct 18 07:51:44 <PBeck> hi
Oct 18 09:17:16 <Nebukadneza> oi
Oct 18 11:43:48 <vanous123> what is the advantage of Xorg vs. Xglamo?
Oct 18 11:44:29 <vanous123> besides the fact, that it can survive suspend?
Oct 18 11:45:24 <lindi-> vanous123: it is maintained.
Oct 18 11:46:06 <vanous123> lindi-: makes sense. and besides that? performance? stability?
Oct 18 11:46:44 <lindi-> vanous123: it'll work with kms
Oct 18 11:48:29 <vanous123> lindi-: and from user point of view? 
Oct 18 11:48:59 <lindi-> vanous123: one less program to understand. you already use Xorg on your PC.
Oct 18 11:49:22 <PaulFertser> vanous123: are you taking part in shr manual?
Oct 18 11:49:49 <PaulFertser> in writing
Oct 18 11:49:55 <vanous123> PaulFertser: yes
Oct 18 11:50:24 <PaulFertser> vanous123: well, i had a look over it and the major complaint of mine is that it borrows text from other wiki pages. It should have links instead.
Oct 18 11:50:40 <PaulFertser> vanous123: because text gets outdated and corrected on the pages you borrowed it from.
Oct 18 11:50:45 <PaulFertser> But not in the manual
Oct 18 11:51:07 <vanous123> well, in fact, i tried not to borrow too much text, but other people contributed.
Oct 18 11:51:26 <vanous123> it will need some work
Oct 18 11:52:59 <PaulFertser> vanous123: can you please take care to not duplicate information at all and remove unnecessary parts? From user pov it can be really confusing.
Oct 18 11:53:18 <vanous123> PaulFertser: ok
Oct 18 11:53:21 <vanous123> have to go
Oct 18 11:53:22 <vanous123> sorry
Oct 18 11:53:31 <PaulFertser> vanous123: thanks in advance
Oct 18 11:53:32 <PaulFertser> hehe
Oct 18 13:41:55 <vanous123> PaulFertser: sorry, had a visitor here
Oct 18 13:43:55 <vanous123> PaulFertser: i am planning to go through the SHR USer Manual and do some major edits
Oct 18 13:44:37 <vanous123> PaulFertser: actually the current freezing status would have been really good for it but i had no time + realized too late it is kinda frozen :)
Oct 18 13:45:28 <vanous123> dos1: yes, it seems like a normal output, not 1024 recamping...
Oct 18 14:01:46 <DocScrutinizer-8> vanous123: well, I don't know if "freeze" is exactly the right word to describe the situation
Oct 18 14:04:10 <DocScrutinizer-8> actually I think a decent freeze is what SHR is missing most atm (or call it a testing branch if you like that better)
Oct 18 14:05:45 <DocScrutinizer-8> testing like in pending Stable, not like in unstable/testing hyper-unstable
Oct 18 14:07:41 <vanous123> DocScrutinizer-8: agree. this would be helpful also for the manual but perhaps reviews as well...
Oct 18 14:11:43 <DocScrutinizer-8> well, SHR abandoned testing image in May or even March (can't remember), and common pun was "unstable is new testing" as nobody cared to backport certified important fixes from unstable to testing. Now SHR seems to do same crime another time, by moving to /testing/mrmoku/unstable (or  whatever) and abandoning unstable for another orphan
Oct 18 14:12:44 <vanous123> there is no manpower to do the backports, which is the way it is...
Oct 18 14:13:21 <DocScrutinizer-8> that's a rather pointless reasoning
Oct 18 14:13:40 <vanous123> but, for example for me knowing the unstable would be frozen for so long would be good, i could have update the user manual
Oct 18 14:13:59 <vanous123> now i don't wanna do it as even if i do it now, it will be obsolete in no time...
Oct 18 14:14:35 <DocScrutinizer-8> why do you think so?
Oct 18 14:15:35 <vanous123> the moment mrmoku unstable becomes available to normal people, who will use previous unstable that has never been put to stable/testing/rc status? 
Oct 18 14:15:52 <DocScrutinizer-8> the promise of a new "better-than-0808" image has been around since very same date 08-08, always announced for "next morning, after build finishes"
Oct 18 14:16:12 <vanous123> well, lets hope it finishes soon :)
Oct 18 14:18:00 <[Rui]> I still think the current unstable should be moved to testing and then put mrmoku's work in unstable :)
Oct 18 14:20:06 <vanous123> that isn't such a bad idea, although i think it would have to be made pretty clear that there will be no backports as i don't assume there is anybody able to do that later... 
Oct 18 14:20:53 <vanous123> i am not sure when i flashed last time, perhaps it is 0808 or even before, but upgraded until it was possible... and it's pretty stable
Oct 18 14:40:29 <CIA-44> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r8b274288fcb3 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/ (atmediators.vala consts.vala): fsogsmd: add known SIM elementary file records
Oct 18 16:12:50 <Nebukadneza> phew, shr is quite slow, even with 16bpp
Oct 18 16:16:04 <TAsn> nah
Oct 18 16:16:20 <Nebukadneza> nah?
Oct 18 16:16:25 <Nebukadneza> what else do i need to tune then?
Oct 18 16:16:28 <Nebukadneza> dialer needs ~20sec to open
Oct 18 16:16:29 <Nebukadneza> :/
Oct 18 16:16:33 <TAsn> really?
Oct 18 16:16:35 <Nebukadneza> yeah
Oct 18 16:16:42 <TAsn> anyhow we improved it a lot
Oct 18 16:16:46 <TAsn> wait for it ;)
Oct 18 16:16:50 <Nebukadneza> everything else may be slow for me, but dialer/phonebook need to be kinda fast
Oct 18 16:16:51 <Nebukadneza> hehe
Oct 18 16:16:55 <TAsn> it should be < 1 second for everythig.
Oct 18 16:17:01 <Nebukadneza> wowzies
Oct 18 16:17:05 <Nebukadneza> well ... how? :)
Oct 18 16:17:05 <TAsn> hopefully... :)
Oct 18 16:17:11 <ndnihil> yes
Oct 18 16:17:12 <ndnihil> how?
Oct 18 16:17:13 <TAsn> caching.
Oct 18 16:17:22 <Nebukadneza> nice
Oct 18 16:17:27 <Nebukadneza> and where do i get that code?
Oct 18 16:17:38 <ndnihil> SHR is slow because they're treating it as a laptop instead of an embedded device
Oct 18 16:18:31 <TAsn> Nebukadneza, you wait.
Oct 18 16:18:41 <TAsn> ndnihil, it is a laptop.
Oct 18 16:19:00 * ndnihil shakes his head
Oct 18 16:19:15 <ndnihil> perhaps a laptop from 10 years ago
Oct 18 16:19:16 <TAsn> :)
Oct 18 16:19:20 <TAsn> that's right.
Oct 18 16:19:25 <DocScrutinizer> exactly
Oct 18 16:19:29 <TAsn> and 10 y/o laptops work great with linux.
Oct 18 16:19:30 <TAsn> :)
Oct 18 16:19:30 <Nebukadneza> TAsn: :/
Oct 18 16:19:32 <TAsn> I got one.
Oct 18 16:20:00 <DocScrutinizer> and SHR / OE is way to far from treating it that way (laptop)
Oct 18 16:20:21 <DocScrutinizer> s/to/too/
Oct 18 16:20:21 <apt> DocScrutinizer meant: and SHR / OE is way too far from treating it that way (laptop)
Oct 18 16:20:24 <TAsn> DocScrutinizer, you claim we treat it as a desktop? :)
Oct 18 16:20:39 <ndnihil> they think it's an AS400
Oct 18 16:20:48 <TAsn> anyhow, brb. ;)
Oct 18 16:22:04 <Nebukadneza> hmmm
Oct 18 16:22:10 <Nebukadneza> so no way to get it fast yet?
Oct 18 16:22:15 <Nebukadneza> at least basic func?
Oct 18 16:23:01 <ndnihil> the BFS trick should help it for graphic heavy stuff
Oct 18 16:23:07 <ndnihil> mkdir /debug
Oct 18 16:23:07 <ndnihil> mount -t debugfs none /debug
Oct 18 16:23:07 <ndnihil> echo NO_NEW_FAIR_SLEEPERS > /debug/sched_features
Oct 18 16:23:32 <ndnihil> ask PaulFertser about details on that
Oct 18 16:23:49 <DocScrutinizer-8> that turned out to be completely useless
Oct 18 16:24:10 <ndnihil> you sure? I noticed an immediate improvement for numptyphysics
Oct 18 16:24:22 <ndnihil> scrolling "seemed" a bit better
Oct 18 16:24:26 <Nebukadneza> bfs?
Oct 18 16:24:52 <Nebukadneza> oh btw one other question
Oct 18 16:25:00 <Nebukadneza> what is a nice way to sync SHR with a pc?
Oct 18 16:25:02 <Nebukadneza> like, contacts?
Oct 18 16:25:09 <DocScrutinizer-8> brainfuck scheduler
Oct 18 16:26:02 <Nebukadneza> ""BFS is unrelated to the brainfuck programming language or the Be File System"" thank god! :)
Oct 18 16:35:57 <Nebukadneza> mhmm
Oct 18 16:36:13 <Nebukadneza> so kernel recompile for BFS is a significant improvement for basic apps (phonebook/dialer)
Oct 18 16:36:48 <Nebukadneza> and nothing else (except 16bpp)
Oct 18 16:38:02 <DocScrutinizer-8> i don't think bfs will bring any noticeable differences, and afaik it won't come for kernel anyway
Oct 18 16:38:41 <DocScrutinizer-8> 16bpp is a major boost
Oct 18 16:39:19 <SpeedEvil> 1bpp!
Oct 18 16:39:26 <SpeedEvil> To match the new website
Oct 18 16:39:38 <DocScrutinizer-8> hehe
Oct 18 16:40:31 <DocScrutinizer-8> incredibly awfull
Oct 18 16:41:03 <SpeedEvil> Though it still uses (4bpp mode) a little less power on my 'new' shiny laptop
Oct 18 16:43:35 <DocScrutinizer-8> for speedup porpuses I suggest to open dialer in time. So it will pop up instantly whenever you need it
Oct 18 16:44:56 <Nebukadneza> hm
Oct 18 16:44:57 <Nebukadneza> ok
Oct 18 16:45:08 <Nebukadneza> then only my sync problem remains
Oct 18 16:45:17 <Nebukadneza> if i get it right, pisi only syncs the other way, right?
Oct 18 16:49:38 <PaulFertser> ndnihil: it's not the BFS trick
Oct 18 16:49:58 <PBeck> hi
Oct 18 16:50:04 <PaulFertser> ndnihil: it's just a way to tweak kernel scheduler that gives the same interactivity as BFS after the trick.
Oct 18 16:51:26 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: BFS itself was more like an experiment that triggered a very fruitful and valuable discussion where tools for measuring actual latency and "interactivity" were developed and real bugs in CFS (mainline scheduler) were fixed making it equally suitable for both desktop and multi-core server boxes.
Oct 18 16:55:44 <Nebukadneza> PaulFertser: ah, okay
Oct 18 17:03:18 <Nebukadneza> any ideas for syncing? :
Oct 18 17:29:35 <Nebukadneza> mmhmmm
Oct 18 17:29:53 <Nebukadneza> what to do with mokonnect if it doesnt find any wifis that are visible to iwlist eth0 scan?
Oct 18 17:33:42 <vanous123> Nebukadneza: use iwlist s :)
Oct 18 17:33:56 <Nebukadneza> well, i'd like a nice GUI - its already present after all
Oct 18 17:40:35 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: i think mokonnect uses connman, check its configuration and try to use its api directly to diagnose the problem.
Oct 18 17:41:02 <Nebukadneza> conman, okay
Oct 18 17:41:42 <vanous123> Nebukadneza: sometimes it finds the networks, sometimes it doesn't? 
Oct 18 17:42:26 <Nebukadneza> no, even if i'm next to the ap it doesnt
Oct 18 17:46:02 <vanous123> i see
Oct 18 17:46:39 <Nebukadneza> :/
Oct 18 17:46:50 <vanous123> well, if this happened to me, i would try to observe in sh-settings if the wifi resource get's allocated by mokonnect
Oct 18 17:47:16 <tschaka> Nebukadneza try, NWA http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NWA works pretty wellhere
Oct 18 17:56:07 <Nebukadneza> tschaka: mhmm
Oct 18 17:56:08 <Nebukadneza> problem
Oct 18 17:56:10 <Nebukadneza> how to get it on there
Oct 18 17:56:46 <tschaka> there is a section "Installation" there. :)
Oct 18 17:56:49 <Nebukadneza> wifi doesnt work, usbnet tells me to install conman-plugin-ethernet
Oct 18 17:56:52 <Nebukadneza> so ...
Oct 18 17:56:55 <Nebukadneza> no net for me :/
Oct 18 17:58:03 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: aha
Oct 18 17:58:16 <tschaka> eh? i thought iwlist finds networks? sorry am a bit fuzzy right now.
Oct 18 17:58:18 <Nebukadneza> but well, how to get it on there? :/
Oct 18 17:58:22 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: so you just miss a conman plugin and mokonnect will probably work.
Oct 18 17:58:22 <Nebukadneza> tschaka: iwlist finds networks
Oct 18 17:58:31 <Nebukadneza> PaulFertser: but ... how to install it without networking?
Oct 18 17:58:45 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: just use iwconfig or wpa_supplicant as usual.
Oct 18 17:58:50 <tschaka> oh. right
Oct 18 17:58:57 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: and why not use usb networking??
Oct 18 17:59:05 <PaulFertser> To install the plugin.
Oct 18 17:59:52 <Nebukadneza> because usb networking needs that plugin
Oct 18 17:59:54 <Nebukadneza> apperently
Oct 18 18:00:24 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: usb networking works out of the box
Oct 18 18:00:30 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: no need for conman or anything.
Oct 18 18:01:03 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: no networking in fact needs that plugin, just conman and guis based on it. I don't understand what the hell you're talking about.
Oct 18 18:01:58 <tschaka> Nebukadneza check there: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking
Oct 18 18:04:44 <Nebukadneza> mkay
Oct 18 18:04:46 <Nebukadneza> doing :)
Oct 18 18:05:53 <[Rui]> PaulFertser: mokonnect... grr...
Oct 18 18:06:52 <PaulFertser> [Rui]: well, i've never seen it so i can't really say if it's worth it. What i can say that using iwlist, then vim to edit wpa_supplicant.conf is a bit inconvenient even for me.
Oct 18 18:11:17 <[Rui]> PaulFertser: mokonnect has extremely bad UI and has never worked for me, but has nice ideas as to where it would go if it worked
Oct 18 18:38:17 <vanous123> PaulFertser: have looked at the shr user manual and am unsure what sections did you mean were taken from another parts of wiki and were outdated?
Oct 18 18:52:57 <PaulFertser> vanous123: ok, let me see
Oct 18 18:54:06 <vanous123> PaulFertser: i actually went through and perhaps someone already did some cleaning there...
Oct 18 18:54:45 <vanous123> the BT mentions only basics and perhaps this could be it... nothing else really jumps into my face directly... 
Oct 18 18:58:07 <PaulFertser> vanous123: properly packaged modules do not need depmod
Oct 18 18:58:46 <PaulFertser> vanous123: recent uboot can read ext2 without issues, i don't understand why it's suggested to add a special fat16 partition.
Oct 18 18:59:29 <PaulFertser> vanous123: booting depends on bootloader and at least with Qi you do not need to hold power button more than ~200ms.
Oct 18 18:59:37 <PaulFertser> I guess even less is enough
Oct 18 19:00:50 <PaulFertser> vanous123: "herefore you might want to create a swap partition." and then a swap file, not partition is created
Oct 18 19:01:15 <PaulFertser> vanous123: i guess the section is redudant anyway since it's usual GNU/Linux system and the swap file is created the usual way.
Oct 18 19:01:34 <PaulFertser> vanous123: same is about changing password or using ssh key
Oct 18 19:03:02 <PaulFertser> vanous123: i would really like to see FSO_Resources link mentioned _before_ description of how to change resource policies with SHRSettings
Oct 18 19:04:31 <PaulFertser> vanous123: also fsoraw information and related stuff is duplicated later on the page.
Oct 18 19:05:20 <PaulFertser> vanous123: "Connect Bluetooth keyboard" is plain wrong, bluez3-specific.
Oct 18 19:05:53 <vanous123> but works :)
Oct 18 19:05:56 <vanous123> lol
Oct 18 19:05:57 <PaulFertser> vanous123: pairing and gsm calls with bluetooth are also duplicated borrowed from Manually using resources.
Oct 18 19:06:24 <PaulFertser> vanous123: "I you are using Qi and installation on a SD card, you can change the kernel parameter loglevel=1 1 in /boot/append-GTA02" <--- plain wrong
Oct 18 19:06:59 <PaulFertser> vanous123: if you see any extra messages on screen with loglevel=4 you should report that as a bug on docs.openmoko.org component "System software".
Oct 18 19:07:10 <PaulFertser> Same about "klogd -c 1", should be removed.
Oct 18 19:07:43 <PaulFertser> vanous123: TIA
Oct 18 19:07:56 <vanous123> TIA?
Oct 18 19:07:56 <PaulFertser> vanous123: and thanks for you previous work too :)
Oct 18 19:09:04 <vanous123> thank you too
Oct 18 19:17:18 <Nebukadneza> zup
Oct 18 19:17:20 <Nebukadneza> got usb net working
Oct 18 19:17:20 <Nebukadneza> phew
Oct 18 19:17:24 <Nebukadneza> brigding hell no
Oct 18 19:47:08 <vanous123> mickeyl: checking on frameworkd.log after 1024 fix and cannot see any message regarding sleep (now set to adaptive). any hint what could be seen?
Oct 18 19:47:59 <vanous123> left it for about 20 minutes, perhaps this is not long enough yet...
Oct 18 19:51:20 <PaulFertser> vanous123: when it detect recamping it outputs a message in the log
Oct 18 19:53:08 <vanous123> without checking on the sources :) i don't think you would remember what the message ind of sound like, but at least which daemon would be messaging? 
Oct 18 19:53:35 <PaulFertser> vanous123: first "checking for TI Calypso recamping bug..."
Oct 18 19:53:47 <PaulFertser> vanous123: then "reregistering %d times within %d seconds. unreg/reg-Intervals are: %s"
Oct 18 19:53:54 <PaulFertser> "reregistering factor: %.2f recampings/minute"
Oct 18 19:54:01 <PaulFertser> "This TI Calypso device suffers from the recamping bug. Turning off sleep mode to recover."
Oct 18 19:54:10 <PaulFertser> "Reenabling deep sleep mode on TI Calypso (giving it another chance)"
Oct 18 19:54:19 <PaulFertser> and possibly "Recamping bug occured, but TI Calypso is still out of deep sleep mode."
Oct 18 19:55:02 <vanous123> ok, so the word Recamping would be one to search for
Oct 18 19:55:43 <PaulFertser> vanous123: i'd say -i recamping or in vim \crecamping
Oct 18 19:56:55 <vanous123> PaulFertser: so with "adaptive" settings, is any of these messages seen on startup or only after recamping has been detected?
Oct 18 19:57:22 <Nebukadneza> PaulFertser: just installed connman-plugin-ethernet, mokonnect still won't let me configure usb telling me that i'm missing that plugin
Oct 18 19:57:25 <Nebukadneza> files are all there
Oct 18 19:57:35 <PaulFertser> vanous123: you're lazy ;) if self.lastStatus == "unregistered":
Oct 18 19:57:56 <PaulFertser> if self.register in "home roaming".split():
Oct 18 19:57:56 <PaulFertser> gobject.idle_add( self._checkRecampingBug )
Oct 18 19:58:20 <vanous123> i have no fr here, doing this over jabber session with someone (who has my fr) now too :)
Oct 18 19:58:21 <PaulFertser> Nebukadneza: well, you need to investigate that yourself. Probably you're missing some another important plugin
Oct 18 19:58:28 <Nebukadneza> mhmm
Oct 18 19:58:44 <PaulFertser> vanous123: you have the internet access so you should be able to access git.freesmartphone.org ;)
Oct 18 19:58:56 <vanous123> true :)
Oct 18 19:59:52 <vanous123> but, you need to know which component is responsible, to be able to search :))
Oct 18 20:00:16 <kinneh> is it just me or has it been a while since any updates to shr-u ?
Oct 18 20:01:31 <Nebukadneza> mhmm
Oct 18 20:01:34 <Nebukadneza> best to check nwa :)
Oct 18 20:03:45 <vanous123> odpsd :)
Oct 18 20:03:55 <vanous123> ogpsd :))
Oct 18 20:04:17 <vanous123> lol, cannot type today,  ogsmd
Oct 18 20:20:24 <Nebukadneza> tschaka: ping
Oct 18 20:20:33 <tschaka> ya
Oct 18 20:21:06 <Nebukadneza> you said you use nwa and its kinda working and nice
Oct 18 20:21:22 <Nebukadneza> just installed it from noko, got a little problem
Oct 18 20:21:36 <Nebukadneza> when adding a network from the found list it doesnt pop up the keyboard
Oct 18 20:21:56 <Nebukadneza> so i can't enter a name and click next to add a network
Oct 18 20:22:19 <tschaka> whoops. try literki for that. search the mailing list for it or something. dont know if that worked for me.
Oct 18 20:22:33 <tschaka> i mean, i dont know if the normal keyboard popped up there.
Oct 18 20:22:49 <tschaka> but you could always open the shelf and click on qwerty there. which pops up the keyboard.
Oct 18 20:24:19 <Nebukadneza> oh, didnt see that
Oct 18 20:24:20 <Nebukadneza> thx
Oct 18 20:24:26 <tschaka> yw
Oct 18 20:24:30 <tschaka> good luck
Oct 18 20:42:55 <thegreen4me> is there an svg editor on shr?
Oct 18 20:44:04 <max_posedon> svg! editor! on neo!
Oct 18 20:44:27 <max_posedon> This is main reason why I love openmoko community, I can be surprised every day
Oct 18 20:45:16 <thegreen4me> im serious!
Oct 18 20:45:31 <max_posedon> I understand, can suggest vim
Oct 18 20:45:42 <max_posedon> I'm not sure that inskape ported and works well
Oct 18 20:46:13 <thegreen4me> inkscape fails on neo
Oct 18 20:46:26 <max_posedon> because of?
Oct 18 20:47:18 <thegreen4me> the screen is too small to fit all of the buttons
Oct 18 20:47:35 <thegreen4me> they just go off the side
Oct 18 23:28:17 <dohhe> Sooo I have just flashed the SHR-U image from 1st sep 09. Will I break my installation if I do 'opkg update && opkg upgrade'?
Oct 18 23:35:43 <dohhe> Nobody knows?
Oct 19 00:02:46 <slaxxer> probly
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 19 02:59:59 2009