**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 02:59:57 2009 Dec 21 06:39:28 raster: hey :) Dec 21 06:39:47 raster: can you provide a single example of free software community benefiting from maemo? Dec 21 06:40:40 raster: because to me it seems that maemo is semi-open crappy gui used only on n8x0 without any future or sense. Dec 21 06:41:37 PaulFertser: hildon, matchbox, lots of ppl @ nokia paid to work on gtk and make it more embedded-friendly Dec 21 06:41:53 matchbox, telepathy... Dec 21 06:42:47 raster: hildon is used nowhere outside maemo. Matchbox is hm, well, was used in gpe. Dec 21 06:42:48 xorg benefitted too (nokia paid an xorg developer to work on x) Dec 21 06:43:03 raster: their gtk work was never accepted mainline. Dec 21 06:43:09 no it wasnt Dec 21 06:43:11 but they tried Dec 21 06:43:13 raster: and xorg work has no direct relation to maemo i think. Dec 21 06:43:16 and no some of it has made its way in Dec 21 06:43:31 it was directly related as it was part of making a product Dec 21 06:43:41 maemo is their name for the software part of the product Dec 21 06:44:03 raster: do you know ofono guys are not going to use telepathy? Dec 21 06:44:43 raster: also i can't see any free software solutions using telepathy interface or else many n900 users would use that. Dec 21 06:45:00 phone Dec 21 06:47:35 raster: so, nokia failed to provide any good X org driver for any of their devices. They sponsor bluez development, that's true. They failed to make their gtk improvements appealing to the community, they failed to push n8x0 support mainline and n900 still runs a forked kernel. Ofono, their opensource way to implement telephony is not and is not going to use telepathy. Hildon is a crappy WM nobody wants to use. Dec 21 06:50:13 raster: also despite using telepathy n900 lacks good sip integration oob, afaik, but instead it comes with propritary-spying-shit skype preinstalled. Dec 21 06:50:31 raster: you see? Maemo is not beneficial to the community. Dec 21 06:51:57 Now they abandoned their whole community by switching to Qt, making all previous programs incompatible. Dec 21 06:56:25 Their "maemo distro" is not close enough to upstream, lacks sane upgrade paths. They still use stupid internal bugtracker and bugs.maemo.org is not mandatory to be taken into account for nokia devs. Etc. Etc. Dec 21 06:59:04 So my point is: Dec 21 06:59:09 PaulFertser: hildon is not a wm. Dec 21 06:59:23 first. (so you're already ignorant of what nokia hs done there) Dec 21 06:59:26 raster: Nokia is using Free Software like a paid whore instead of being a gentle lover. Dec 21 06:59:42 teir changes to gtk after much massaging and debating - some have gone in. the community HASA benefitted Dec 21 07:00:02 there ARE drivers to make make things work on the omap soc's - thanks to nokia Dec 21 07:00:08 with source Dec 21 07:00:30 even if 1 SINGLE line of code came out of nokia that improved something thanks to maemo - the cimmunity HAs benefitted Dec 21 07:01:02 hell if nokia had NOT produced a single line of code the community benefitted by nokia putting a stamp on linux saying "we consider linux ready for prime-time on consumer devices" Dec 21 07:01:12 you have NO idea the power of being able to say "but nokia did X" Dec 21 07:01:22 and how suddenyl arguments from other vendors doing the right thing disappear Dec 21 07:01:32 maybe you dont see the things nokia has done Dec 21 07:01:33 but i do Dec 21 07:01:42 i definitely do - and i USE that to good effect. Dec 21 07:02:18 i cant tell you everything, but you'll have to trust my word on it that even if a single bit of code never came out of the maemo project and n7xx/8xx/9xx work Dec 21 07:02:39 the simple fact of nokia legitimising things have given me a stick to beat people with and change things for the better Dec 21 07:02:45 that alone i'm hellishly greatful for. Dec 21 07:05:08 nokia funded code and work on matchbox Dec 21 07:05:23 hell collabra ands openedhand came into EXISTENCE because of nokia Dec 21 07:05:30 thats a chunk of fulltime paid open source developers Dec 21 07:05:36 that alone is worth something Dec 21 07:06:32 raster: Dec 21 07:06:52 (hildon) i know that when it is started it provides some stupid gui. When it's not i just use any WM instead. Dec 21 07:07:54 hildon is not a wm Dec 21 07:08:00 I see it now. Dec 21 07:08:04 its a sten of standards for small screen tablet/phone like devices Dec 21 07:08:13 properties, hints etc. etc. Dec 21 07:08:27 it definitely has use Dec 21 07:08:34 right now its problem is it hasnt gained wide-acceptance Dec 21 07:08:43 but nokia havent closed it up and locked it down Dec 21 07:09:09 it simply hasnt been of interest to the oss world - mostly because the oss world has no devices that are interestign enoguh Dec 21 07:09:10 eg phones Dec 21 07:09:13 raster: will the switch to qt make large parts of hildon obsolete? Dec 21 07:09:19 no Dec 21 07:09:29 in fact nokia have said they will continue to ship and support gtk Dec 21 07:09:35 they will continue to use x11 Dec 21 07:09:39 and thus - will continue to use hildon Dec 21 07:09:45 they may add more to it Dec 21 07:09:46 etc. Dec 21 07:09:55 some bits wont work - eg like their plugins in their panel - thats gtk now Dec 21 07:10:01 will change for qt not surprisingly Dec 21 07:10:07 but apps should continue to work Dec 21 07:10:27 i think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what nokia has actually done Dec 21 07:10:46 i may disagree with some of their decisions and technical details Dec 21 07:10:56 i may find their web tablets mostly useless and slow Dec 21 07:11:09 the n900 is the first of their linux devices that actually is useful Dec 21 07:11:19 mostly ebcause it can replace the phone in my pocket Dec 21 07:11:29 raster: look, i'm coming from end-user pov. N810 with stock firmware is unusable. With Mer it's actually more useable but i do not benefit from hildon in any way even while using mer. Dec 21 07:11:35 and that gives it a key factor Dec 21 07:11:49 hahahah Dec 21 07:11:53 you do benefit from hildon Dec 21 07:11:58 i suggest you look much more closely Dec 21 07:12:10 mer ships a hildon-using desktop Dec 21 07:12:48 raster: yes, but what if i use lxde-based desktop instead? Dec 21 07:12:59 then u dont Dec 21 07:13:05 but you chose not to use what nokia have done Dec 21 07:13:22 Because it's not user-friendly. Dec 21 07:13:25 how does YOUR decision for your own personal reasons mean that nokia have not contributed to and benefitted the community (open source community) ? Dec 21 07:15:20 raster: if hildon was great, why guys who worked on iPAQs used matchbox and no hildon? Why no FR folks are using hildon? Why is hildon so clumsy and feels feature-constrained? Dec 21 07:15:28 ugh Dec 21 07:15:39 the hildon desktop on maemo *USES MATCHBOX* Dec 21 07:15:52 HILDON IS A STANDARD not the name of a wm or process Dec 21 07:16:30 raster: sorry for my stupidity... Dec 21 07:16:45 raster: matchbox alone is ok though mad constrained. Dec 21 07:16:47 nokia PAID to have matchbox improved and worked on Dec 21 07:16:58 ythe COMMUNITY BENEFITTED DIRECTLY from that Dec 21 07:17:06 i dont use mb Dec 21 07:17:10 its not my style Dec 21 07:17:26 but that doesnt mean nokia hasnt contributed - in a tangible and direct way back to open source Dec 21 07:17:58 as i said above - i think you have a fundamental misunderstanbding of what maemo is, what nokia has done, and what things like hildon etc. are. Dec 21 07:17:59 raster: but hildon is there for quite some time. Why GPE wasn't hildon-based? Ok, it used matchbox-wm but that seems to be about it, nothing more? Dec 21 07:18:31 until you clear that up i dont think you are in a position to poo-poo nokia for "just using open source as a whore and not contributing" because nokia damne well has contributed and they deserve respect for that. Dec 21 07:18:44 gpe pre-dates hildon Dec 21 07:18:55 and the gpe guys seemingly dont want to dpot some or all of it Dec 21 07:18:57 ask the gpe guys Dec 21 07:19:12 raster: gpe is ~dead i assume. Dec 21 07:19:31 thats likely why it hasnt Dec 21 07:20:10 as "gtk embedded ui" BECAME the nokia maemo/hildon ui Dec 21 07:20:19 all the people working on gpe jumped over there Dec 21 07:20:27 as now it was actually being funded. Dec 21 07:20:48 nokia HIREd a bunch of gnome/gtk developers Dec 21 07:20:53 and paid them to work on maemo/hildon Dec 21 07:21:04 thats they the en-masse quit when nokia bought trolltech Dec 21 07:21:11 raster: so is hildon a set of gtk+ extensions plus some gui bits (control panel, app manager etc)? Dec 21 07:21:11 they simply didnt want to become qt coders Dec 21 07:21:23 they were not just generic nokia enigneers who work on whatever technology they are told to Dec 21 07:21:58 hildon is a set of hints and standards to allow apps to do things like provide a master menu for the app thats outside the app window Dec 21 07:22:06 as well as other hints and properties Dec 21 07:22:24 nokia provided a desktop around these standards with actual apps using them to implement the ui Dec 21 07:22:30 i personally dont like the ui they built Dec 21 07:22:43 but i wont go poo-poo them for not contributing to open source - because they did. Dec 21 07:22:57 credit where credit is due. Dec 21 07:23:11 raster: i see now. Thanks for elaborating this. Dec 21 07:24:00 raster: probably i'm just too frustrated by the actual results: unusable n8x0 tablets and non-free maemo development model and sucky "maemo community". Dec 21 07:24:07 why do you even think nokia have to "contribute" more than is useful to them? Dec 21 07:24:12 that i can understand Dec 21 07:24:44 i agree on the ui and desktop. to me i think they have done some odd things and not necessarily made things more usable Dec 21 07:24:48 but they did some good things Dec 21 07:24:56 most opensource is "scratch your own itch" Dec 21 07:24:57 they have legitimised using debian and packages Dec 21 07:24:58 raster: also probably i'm expressing it all a bit more harsh just to flame up the discussion a little to provoke more insightful answers ;) Dec 21 07:25:20 u have no idea how hard it is to combat the mentality of "an embedded os is one fine-tuned blob of binaries u install all in one or nothing": Dec 21 07:25:34 as opposed to gettinginto peoples heads that devices are more and more becoming mini-pc's Dec 21 07:25:42 and u'll need security updates and bug fixes for every element Dec 21 07:25:58 and u dont want to ship whole new flash-images for every bug in zlib, evas, glibc, kernel, etc. etc. Dec 21 07:26:05 nokia made my life easier there. Dec 21 07:26:08 raster: still nokia uses monolithic updates in some insane (SSU?) way. Dec 21 07:26:11 that alone is worth something Dec 21 07:26:11 the n900 might well be what I hoped the freerunner v5 or so would eventually become (albeit still not quite as open) Dec 21 07:26:21 nokia used to do monolithic systems Dec 21 07:26:27 single deb package that was "base" Dec 21 07:26:32 they have learned that lesson Dec 21 07:26:44 for maemo5 its much more just "debian" - ie lots of packages Dec 21 07:27:33 again 0- nokia, but showing a real comoany with real products having to churn out a non-community commercially supported os, have made my life easy in convincing people that just "following standards and not inventing your whole own world for no good reason" is the way to go Dec 21 07:28:49 raster: i'm very glad to hear that. That alone makes nokia look better in my eyes. Dec 21 07:29:33 yup Dec 21 07:29:40 respect where respect is due Dec 21 07:29:42 raster: really, great thanks for elaborations. Dec 21 07:30:09 simply legitimising a better way of doing things that makes *OUR* lives as oss developers and users easier... is worth something to the community Dec 21 07:31:40 raster: i see... But from an end-user pov the process and attitude nokia has with its customers is mad frustrating. Internal/external bugtracker "controversy" alone can give one headaches. Dec 21 07:33:34 every company will have such issu4es Dec 21 07:33:41 companyes are not open source projects Dec 21 07:33:53 u will need to deal with it and be gentle and guide them into a better way of working Dec 21 07:34:51 raster: also it's unfun to hear them talking about "opensounce" and "maemo community" every now and then but in fact controlling maemo development fully from the inside. Also plain lies about "dangerous LiIon is the reason to keep battery control proprietary" are freaking me out. Dec 21 07:35:21 thats what openmoko did Dec 21 07:35:25 and its what every company will do Dec 21 07:35:58 just be happy u get source coee and the freedom to go "well i dont like what you ship and i know i cant change it in your products as they come out of the box.. but damnit. i CAN change it myself here!" Dec 21 07:36:44 raster: easier said than done. Mer was struggling to get something fully-functional for several years already and it's still not there. Dec 21 07:36:47 mind u the battery thing is a little odd Dec 21 07:36:59 thats just silly Dec 21 07:37:11 but in the end - u still cant say nokia hasnt contributed Dec 21 07:37:21 raster: yup, i got your point. Dec 21 07:37:29 nokia has helped *ME* a lot in trying to improve things Dec 21 07:37:32 just wait and see Dec 21 07:37:39 :)) i do wait Dec 21 07:37:55 (sorry that i have to keep saying wait - but it'll be worth it) Dec 21 07:38:26 raster: though probably i would be frustrated as well because i'm like too stupid to think about high-level stuff and low-level stuff is usually closed anyway. Dec 21 07:38:42 raster: will the magical thing have USB host? Dec 21 07:39:05 wait and see Dec 21 07:39:53 raster: wish you best of luck Dec 21 07:40:11 i can tell you that Dec 21 07:40:14 1. i'm excited Dec 21 07:40:44 2. i'm doing my best to make sure as much of the core os is open source as can possibly be done Dec 21 07:41:04 3. i dont believe it is the RIGHT for users to demand that the maker produce open-source ui apps Dec 21 07:41:17 eg dialler, contacts, etc. etc. i dont believe have to be open Dec 21 07:41:23 ui DO believe core compentns must be Dec 21 07:41:28 err components Dec 21 07:41:49 eg toolkit, libc's, power management, telephony, xserver, wm, etc. Dec 21 07:42:07 contact management/storage Dec 21 07:42:14 should be open Dec 21 07:42:17 as well Dec 21 07:42:24 if they choose to make their own closed music player Dec 21 07:42:27 or dialler Dec 21 07:42:39 or whatever - thats their choice. it's what makes their product uniquely theirs out of the box Dec 21 07:43:03 but as the core is open, you, as an open source user/develoepr can replace any element u dont like/agree with and no one is standing in your way Dec 21 07:43:50 i may not succeed on making everything core open - but i damned well am trying. it's hard to make a 10000 pound gorilla stop and change direction if u just stand and yell at him. Dec 21 07:43:51 :) Dec 21 07:44:15 raster: sounds great. You're awesome, no kidding. Dec 21 07:44:36 i suspect the battle for opennes will take years and iteratins of multiple products Dec 21 07:45:09 if they are successful even if open - this legitimizes the open strategy and will help put more pressure on more bits to be open. Dec 21 07:45:30 i also am concerned with re-distributability of closed blobs Dec 21 07:45:35 eg wifi firmware blobs Dec 21 07:45:40 telephony firmware blobs Dec 21 07:45:46 opengl libs/driver blobs Dec 21 07:46:12 Does the SHR-Lock screen have problems displaying the network status? Illume and the lockscreen shows different network statuses (lock screen says disabled and Illume says that the signal is fine) Dec 21 07:46:15 things u may end up stuck with as closed blobs - whatever they are i'd push for re-distribution rights Dec 21 07:46:34 ie so u can at least create an usable os image and ship these needed blobs with it so it works Dec 21 07:47:24 Sounds like the most sane strategy possible. Dec 21 07:47:57 For someone intending to produce a mass-product appealing to non-geeks. Dec 21 07:48:28 i'd like it to appeal to geeks and non-geeks Dec 21 07:49:03 the non-geeks are going to ensure 1. its affordable, 2. it has good hw (fast cpu, gpu, nice screen, 3g etc.), 3. is actually avilable and supported in multiple countries Dec 21 07:49:23 the geeks will hopefully provide an interesting ecosystem attached Dec 21 07:49:31 raster: i mean many hackers would like to have something like GLOW or a sane version of freerunner. Dec 21 07:50:07 glow? Dec 21 07:50:35 Hm, i forgot the name. Flow? Dec 21 07:50:51 It's a beagle-board based open phone. Dec 21 07:50:55 oooh that build-your-own phone from parts? Dec 21 07:51:21 Yes Dec 21 07:53:21 raster: but i agree, the benefits of having a device appealing to non-geeks are huge, no doubt. Dec 21 07:53:40 u get better compontents, better looks, for cheaper Dec 21 07:53:44 so its a tradeoff Dec 21 07:53:52 in the end u also have telcos Dec 21 07:54:02 telcos will want to resell device with a subsidy Dec 21 07:54:10 and in return for that they will want it locked down Dec 21 07:54:18 so the $100 or $200 device is always subsidised Dec 21 07:54:20 If i hated anyone, i'd probably hate telcos :) Dec 21 07:54:22 and well - u give up freedoms Dec 21 07:54:32 if there is the option of a full price device not from the telco Dec 21 07:54:43 (direct from manufacturer but buyable online or off the shelf) Dec 21 07:54:45 that isnt locked Dec 21 07:54:55 eg for $500 or $600 or $700 Dec 21 07:55:03 then u can keep the geeks happy Dec 21 07:55:21 if u want an unlocked "freedom" device - u pay the actual cost of it Dec 21 07:55:28 no susidy, but... you CAN do it Dec 21 07:55:32 as opposed to have no choice Dec 21 07:55:48 raster: btw, is Harald still participating in the samsung mainlining (and understanding mainline process/phylosophy) effort? Are you allowed to tell that? Dec 21 07:56:07 i think tho Dec 21 07:56:11 i think so Dec 21 07:56:15 tho thats is samsung lsi Dec 21 07:56:18 i work with samsung dmc Dec 21 07:56:26 different companies Dec 21 07:56:34 (like hp vs intel) Dec 21 07:57:07 Heh, i still can't get used to it. Dec 21 07:59:25 welcome to asian congolmerates Dec 21 07:59:38 in the west often companeis are owned by the same holding company/parent Dec 21 07:59:41 but thats hidden Dec 21 07:59:48 in asian they wear it like a proud badge Dec 21 07:59:51 in asia Dec 21 07:59:59 especially japan/korea Dec 21 08:00:09 but they literally are separate companies that often compete Dec 21 08:00:19 or at the minimum then just dont co-operate well Dec 21 08:00:25 eg u buy ram or cpu's from samsung lsi Dec 21 08:00:28 if u are samsung dmc Dec 21 08:00:36 or u are hp or dell - u get treated the same Dec 21 08:03:26 raster: on an unrelated note: i asked local digital aqusition board manufacturer to provide me with low-level info so i can write a driver for one of their DAQ pci boards. They sent me windows driver source the same day :) Dec 21 08:03:43 nice Dec 21 08:03:48 tho what license? Dec 21 08:04:35 raster: windows driver source is not licensed in any way and i didn't sign anything. I assume i'm supposed to not disclose it still. Dec 21 08:05:09 that means u have no license to use it Dec 21 08:05:14 distribute it Dec 21 08:05:21 or any binaries made from it - until you have one Dec 21 08:05:24 they retain full copyright Dec 21 08:05:26 :( Dec 21 08:05:47 raster: yes. But i do not need to. Nobody needs. I'm encouraged to write a regular GPL'd linux driver. Dec 21 08:06:57 using their source as a bae would violate their copyright Dec 21 08:07:04 if u simply use it to know how the hw works Dec 21 08:07:07 then u might be ok Dec 21 08:31:11 is there a good terminal command that can tell me about the telephony status on fso? Do I have to use 10-mile long dbus calls? Dec 21 08:36:14 Daramarak: I fear yes, dbus is the only way Dec 21 08:36:32 Ouch :) Dec 21 08:37:23 * joerg_42 moooes at raster and PaulFertser Dec 21 08:39:20 Daramarak: You can always make an alias Dec 21 08:40:03 tomcatek: I will :) When I find a reliable way to make sure that the gsm is connected and well Dec 21 08:40:29 Daramarak: I use dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device org.freesmartphone.GSM.Debug.DebugCommand $'string:AT+COPS?\r\n' Dec 21 08:40:41 Daramarak: and AT+CPIN? Dec 21 08:40:53 Daramarak: .. peridically from a watchdog process Dec 21 08:41:03 lindi-: what does those two AT commands do? Dec 21 08:41:25 Daramarak: check that we are logged in to the network and that SIM card is happy Dec 21 08:42:07 are there a good site for looking up AT commands? Dec 21 08:42:20 Daramarak: the gsm specs Dec 21 08:42:39 Daramarak: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/07_series/07.10/ Dec 21 08:42:54 of course you can kick off mickeyterm and talk AT directly Dec 21 08:44:15 DocScrutinizer51: thanks for the tip Dec 21 08:45:00 DocScrutinizer51: will that work if you have a gprs connection? Dec 21 08:45:40 DocScrutinizer51: I just get 'dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freesmartphone.GSM.MUX.NoChannel: All channels are used' Dec 21 08:45:50 no, as then all 4 channels are occupied Dec 21 08:45:51 lindi-: You gave me a link to a zipped msoffice document :P Dec 21 08:46:03 Daramarak: yep those are word files Dec 21 08:46:12 Daramarak: I downloaded them all and converted to plaintext Dec 21 08:46:21 Daramarak: then it's easy to grep Dec 21 08:47:04 yeah those morons Dec 21 08:48:13 lindi-: I will have to do that too, no way Ill browse documentation in word - or even open office. Dec 21 08:48:39 it's only 14M in plaintext :) Dec 21 08:54:20 lindy-: The dbus commands gave me what I wanted to know now atleast. Seems like my network connection is fine, even though the SHR-lock screen says something else. Dec 21 08:55:48 Daramarak: this is exactly why my watchdog uses such a low level access :) Dec 21 08:58:15 lindi-: Yep , writing an quick script to do this now... Dec 21 08:59:02 raster: even if i wanted i couldn't use their clumsy c++ source in the linux driver :) And the point is moot anyway, they actually want me to write a driver since they lack skills and motivation to do it themselves :) Dec 21 08:59:23 Daramarak: boo :) Dec 21 08:59:51 Daramarak: what does it do? Dec 21 09:02:26 lindi-: only run those two commands and display the results. That is all I need I think. Dec 21 09:02:34 ok Dec 21 09:03:50 lindi-: With the openmoko I sometimes gets paranoid, I get the feeling that some one is trying to contact me, and want to make sure that everything is ok with the phone. And when I cannot trust what the gui is telling me, I need something else. Dec 21 09:04:09 Daramarak: you might want to use gsm-watchdog :) Dec 21 09:04:36 lindi-: Actually yes i might. Dec 21 09:04:58 Daramarak: iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/gsm-watchdog but it's not ready to be packaged yet Dec 21 09:05:16 Daramarak: just a draft that works for me Dec 21 09:07:57 Daramarak: I feel with you fella Dec 21 09:11:48 DocScrutinizer51: Yes we are probably not alone. But at least I can do something with my problem. My gf has a cellphone that sometimes just stops accepting phonecalls, but she doesnt know until some actually meets her and tells her. There are no scripts helping her :) Dec 21 09:12:30 lindi-: This actually flashes the led when the connection is gone?! Dec 21 09:25:58 Daramarak: yes Dec 21 09:26:49 lindi-: cool, it is now placed in my init.d folder for safe keeping :) Dec 21 09:28:22 lindi-: any problems I should be aware of, might it cause my FR to emit smokesignals or run a DDOS attack at whitehouse.gov? Dec 21 09:28:52 Daramarak: well you need ledctrl Dec 21 09:29:28 Daramarak: and it assumes /etc/init.d/ogsmd Dec 21 09:29:35 Daramarak: and also that you run answering-machine Dec 21 09:30:29 lindi-: must ogsmd be run before gsm-watchdog? Dec 21 09:30:47 Daramarak: doesn't matter Dec 21 09:30:56 Daramarak: since gsm-watchdog will restart it if it is not working :) Dec 21 09:31:02 lindi-: ok Dec 21 09:32:44 lindi-: I do not have ledctrl, where can I get that? Dec 21 09:34:22 Daramarak: iki.fi/lindi/git/ledctrl Dec 21 09:34:30 Daramarak: but it's being merged to libomhacks Dec 21 09:40:26 lindi-: So currently I have a script that just fails to blink with the leds :) Dec 21 09:45:23 Daramarak: heh Dec 21 12:05:03 Hi PaulFertser Dec 21 12:05:12 do you know if there is an offset in sms delete Dec 21 12:05:14 command Dec 21 12:05:23 so when I try to delete an sms on the sim Dec 21 12:05:26 MUX[primary]: AT> AT+CMGD=5,0 Dec 21 12:05:26 D/AT ( 892): MUX[primary]: AT< +CMS ERROR: 4 Dec 21 12:05:35 it gives me the CMS ERROR 4 Dec 21 12:06:01 panicking: what does iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/dump-sms print as the indexes? Dec 21 12:08:09 Ok, but I need to install a standard version Dec 21 12:08:13 to have the index right Dec 21 12:08:17 ? Dec 21 12:08:27 I have readed that there is an offset of 1 Dec 21 12:08:33 in phonebook location Dec 21 12:08:40 it refers to index to Dec 21 12:08:43 so 0 is 1 Dec 21 12:08:45 1 is 2 Dec 21 12:10:40 panicking: sorry, no idea Dec 21 12:10:59 ok, I'm going to check Dec 21 12:11:08 if there is some index problem Dec 21 12:11:12 during sms import Dec 21 16:33:30 hi, i am trying to get android on my phone, and uboot is giving me Bad Data CRC, i saw the entry on the wiki, with the setenv, stuff, but i am not sure where to run that Dec 21 16:46:48 sirkha_top, the image Dec 21 16:46:50 is to big Dec 21 16:46:59 so when u-boot read just read the first part Dec 21 16:47:09 you must increase in the enviroment variable of u-boot Dec 21 16:47:14 the loadable image size Dec 21 16:47:19 and this is do the trick Dec 21 16:47:22 if you use android Dec 21 16:47:37 can you join in the #android-on-freerunner Dec 21 18:39:46 ~ping Dec 21 18:39:47 ~pong Dec 21 18:43:40 ~help Dec 21 18:44:37 oh yes Dec 21 18:45:29 xchat (or freenode) just registers me to 2 chan and refuses for another 4 Dec 21 18:47:58 hmm strange xchat choke Dec 21 18:48:52 !register Dec 21 18:49:50 dm Dec 21 22:04:56 hi all Dec 21 22:05:30 I've got a problem with a newly installed SHR. It doesn't ask for a pin Dec 21 22:07:03 how can I find out what's wrong? Dec 21 22:07:28 ah, now it's there! Dec 21 22:07:36 RamsesFSFE: :) Dec 21 22:08:22 lindi-: Hi. I am using you kapula. Real wow thing to answer calls throught gtk menu. Dec 21 22:08:47 gena2x: heh Dec 21 22:09:07 gena2x: note that i am no longer using kapula to answer calls. I use answering-machine for that Dec 21 22:09:21 gena2x: faster, more reliable, uses less memory Dec 21 22:09:37 lindi-: Very nice. And now question ;) That should I start to have a phonebook loaded from sim? Dec 21 22:10:04 lindi-: yes, i've read about it, it's in my queue to try. Dec 21 22:10:19 gena2x: dump-contacts Dec 21 22:10:37 gena2x: iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/dump-contacts Dec 21 22:14:21 lindi-: I mean can kapula use contacts? Dec 21 22:15:50 lindi-: it writes something like 'failed to read phonebook'. Dec 21 22:16:46 lindi-: OK :) Dec 21 22:17:02 lindi-: something like PIN :) Dec 21 22:17:30 lindi-: No more stupid questions. Dec 21 22:19:07 gena2x: you found .kapula/pin and .kapula/phonebook? ;) Dec 21 22:19:32 lindi-: I see python for 2nd time. Dec 21 22:19:37 lindi-: how to know, if I am using answering-machine? Dec 21 22:19:56 tomcatek: if you have to ask you aren't :) Dec 21 22:20:28 lindi-: i ment any console commnds :P Dec 21 22:20:36 ps? Dec 21 22:21:15 root@moskito ~ $ ps -ef | grep answ Dec 21 22:21:15 root 5286 4495 0 22:21 pts/3 00:00:00 grep answ Dec 21 22:21:15 root@moskito ~ $ Dec 21 22:22:07 ok.. Dec 21 22:22:08 I guess you not running? Dec 21 22:22:18 it's not in SHR repos Dec 21 22:22:31 tomcatek: true Dec 21 22:22:36 true Dec 21 22:23:34 lindi-: so where did You got ot? Dec 21 22:23:35 ity Dec 21 22:23:38 it Dec 21 22:24:03 It came from him. Dec 21 22:24:33 gena2x: him hwo? Dec 21 22:24:43 I mean he wrote it. ;) Dec 21 22:25:16 gena2x: but my question wos about repository :P Dec 21 22:25:33 tomcatek: wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/user:lindi has some links Dec 21 22:27:43 lindi-: does it have "silent" mode? Dec 21 22:28:12 lindi-: i ment to turn off the ring without ansering the phone Dec 21 22:28:48 tomcatek: my ringtone-start checks for /tmp/silent Dec 21 22:29:20 tomcatek: what subsystems of frameworkd are you using? Dec 21 22:29:35 lindi-: i would require a button... it's hard to create that file "on the fly" Dec 21 22:29:46 lindi-: SHR default one Dec 21 22:30:21 tomcatek: then answering-machine is probably not the one that plays ringtone on your system :) Dec 21 22:30:30 tomcatek: well I have a menu entry that creates that file Dec 21 22:32:36 hmm... Dec 21 22:32:58 lindi-: new SHR leaks that button (which I use quite often) Dec 21 22:33:08 tomcatek: you can't configure it? Dec 21 22:33:17 lindi-: and I'm looking for it :] Dec 21 22:34:28 lindi-: no. Dec 21 22:34:33 now away Dec 21 22:36:00 hmm, strange. Obviously, I cannot change the date on SHR. There is no "change" button or something else Dec 21 22:36:12 have to do it via shell Dec 21 22:37:36 RamsesFSFE: it's known issue Dec 21 22:37:52 RamsesFSFE: You have to change it via console Dec 21 22:38:17 anyone have recent version of navit not able to list street names? Dec 21 22:38:25 RamsesFSFE: do You have any promlems with hour? Dec 21 22:38:43 tomcatek: no, I could change this on the gui perfectly Dec 21 22:38:52 yes... Dec 21 22:39:34 RamsesFSFE: but it periodicly changes for me Dec 21 22:39:38 lindi-: What is format for phonebook? Dec 21 22:40:41 lindi-: One more stupid question... Dec 21 22:40:53 tomcatek: ups Dec 21 22:41:07 but the rest looks really great Dec 21 22:41:34 with neovento, I had a severe SMS issue. Couldn't send nor receive SMS. With SHR, it works Dec 21 22:43:08 RamsesFSFE: I use SHR unstable, andalmost everything works for me Dec 21 22:44:08 tomcatek: does unstable have any important improvements? Dec 21 22:44:09 RamsesFSFE: GPS, GPRS, WiFi, BT (files, nevet tested headset) Dec 21 22:44:37 lindi-: cool. it works. Only problem is that pin is ~/.kapula/pin while phonebook is ~/.kapula/phonebook.txt. note txt ;) Dec 21 22:45:15 RamsesFSFE: improvements to what? Dec 21 22:45:33 tomcatek: to the testing version I use Dec 21 22:47:13 heh... Dec 21 22:47:37 RamsesFSFE: never used testing... always user unstable Dec 21 23:10:21 lindi-: kapula is exactly I wanted from my phone - simple clean understandble and functional. SHR is too complicated for me. Very happy. Dec 21 23:11:13 gena2x: what is complicted about SHR? Dec 21 23:12:02 tomcatek: It tries to be user friendly, not developer friendly. Dec 21 23:12:38 tomcatek: Something like this. Dec 21 23:14:09 tomcatek: Displays few information. Have slow animated interface Dec 21 23:14:56 tomcatek: I like idea of phonebook simple idea to have phonebook in simple text file. Dec 21 23:15:34 tomcatek: it's much easier to edit, move, search and so. Dec 21 23:16:21 tomcatek: mb I just don't understand shr or anything now :) Dec 21 23:16:22 gena2x: if You want, SHR allows You to store contacts in CSV file Dec 21 23:17:07 gena2x: slow animation is a bite becouse no hardware acceleration (as far as I know) Dec 21 23:19:28 tomcatek: Do you know how you can dial number in kapula? just pop keyboard, enter few letters from contact and it is autocompleted. Dec 21 23:19:45 tomcatek: All in 2 seconds Dec 21 23:20:01 hmm.. Dec 21 23:20:04 nice :] Dec 21 23:20:13 tomcatek: and number is dialed... instantly :) Dec 21 23:20:57 gena2x: if You know how to port that functionality on SHR please do :) Dec 21 23:22:02 tomcatek: no more new e window with buttons loaded from files. it. just. dials. number :) Dec 21 23:22:43 tomcatek: I guess it's out of concept of shr. Dec 21 23:22:52 tomcatek: hmm, I've got a problem with ssh to the device. auto usb0 iface usb0 inet static address 192.168.0.200 netmask 255.255.255.0 network 192.168.0.0 gives usb0: ERROR while getting interface flags: No such device Dec 21 23:23:05 RamsesFSFE, look at dmesg Dec 21 23:23:11 or ifconfig -a Dec 21 23:25:00 dmesg doesn't show anything, ifconfig -a shows a eth4... WTF? Dec 21 23:25:33 ifconfig -a Dec 21 23:25:43 or ifconfig usb0 up Dec 21 23:26:01 RamsesFSFE, in short, it means, your neo now at eth4 Dec 21 23:26:17 if you look carefully at dmesg, you will find it Dec 21 23:28:35 RamsesFSFE: can You pastebin ifconfig -a? Dec 21 23:29:06 RamsesFSFE: and F is udev. Dec 21 23:30:59 tomcatek: http://pastebin.com/d3e486f07 Dec 21 23:32:07 pan0? interesting Dec 21 23:32:21 yep Dec 21 23:32:50 its bluetooth Dec 21 23:33:06 yep Dec 21 23:33:23 and because of ip conflict, you can't ping your neo attached to eth4 Dec 21 23:34:03 RamsesFSFE do ifconfig eth4 yp 192.168.0.200 Dec 21 23:34:33 RamsesFSFE: up Dec 21 23:35:18 RamsesFSFE: oh, pan0 :) Dec 21 23:35:20 that seems to work. Now it's asking for a password I have never set ;-) Dec 21 23:35:33 gena2x: yes, that's BT Dec 21 23:35:44 so first ifdown pan0 down Dec 21 23:35:55 then ifconfig eth4 down Dec 21 23:36:11 then ifconfig eth4 up 192.168.0.200 Dec 21 23:36:53 so first ifdown pan0 Dec 21 23:37:02 without second down Dec 21 23:38:16 heh Dec 21 23:38:49 I have go sleep :) Dec 21 23:39:20 why? Dec 21 23:40:14 too many typos Dec 21 23:42:01 heh... Dec 21 23:42:35 I'm going to sleep, too. Thanks a lot Dec 21 23:43:18 RamsesFSFE: night Dec 22 00:51:16 Hello, did anyone try to get data out of qtopia into a syncml-compatible format? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 02:59:56 2009