**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 23 02:59:57 2009
Dec 23 04:43:36 <rhaeder> s.o. "playing" CellHunter here?
Dec 23 04:43:38 <rhaeder> good morning, all :)
Dec 23 04:49:08 <rhaeder> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Louis_Vitton_Presents_Sea-inspired_Exhibit <-- some spam to kill?
Dec 23 05:01:32 <Undrwater1> PaulFertser: any changes to bluetooth with latest shr?  things look a bit different
Dec 23 06:39:35 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: yep, the pidof trick doesn't work anymore afaik
Dec 23 06:40:02 <Undrwater1> PaulFertser: anything new that will?
Dec 23 06:40:20 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: well, i think i should provide updated instructions then. The idea is to find the adapter path just like the python examples do. Easily doable from the shell as well.
Dec 23 06:40:58 <Undrwater1> PaulFertser: which python examples?
Dec 23 06:42:23 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: ok, give me a minute
Dec 23 06:43:19 <DocScrutinizer51> moin
Dec 23 06:43:37 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: good morning :)
Dec 23 06:49:01 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: so, after bluetooth is powered on and bluetoothd is started one should do
Dec 23 06:49:40 <PaulFertser> export BTADAPTER=`dbus-send --system --dest=org.bluez --print-reply / org.bluez.Manager.DefaultAdapter | tail -1 | sed 's/^.*"\(.*\)".*$/\1/'`
Dec 23 06:50:08 <PaulFertser> And then in all instructions instead of /org/bluez/`pidof bluetoothd`/hci0 one should use $BTADAPTER
Dec 23 06:52:24 <PaulFertser> The panu script should be altered too obviously.
Dec 23 06:52:29 <Undrwater1> so $BTADAPTER/dev_etc....
Dec 23 06:52:32 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: yep
Dec 23 06:52:57 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: is there any sense in spending time on modifying the wiki? To me it seems like nobody's interested :(
Dec 23 06:53:00 <Undrwater1> org.bluez.Headset.Connect remains as well?
Dec 23 06:53:10 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: sure, methods remain the same
Dec 23 06:53:39 <Undrwater1> i'd like to see it in the wiki...it'll come up again for sure in the future i think
Dec 23 06:54:06 <Undrwater1> for sure i think ;)
Dec 23 06:55:34 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: btw, for something that is done from scripts i really recommend dbus-send instead of mdbus, mdbus is handy for introspection but it's slower.
Dec 23 06:56:28 <Undrwater1> PaulFertser: i've read that and understand...i need to sit down sometime and read how it all works...VERY different from my usual linux experience
Dec 23 06:57:08 <PaulFertser> Undrwater1: in fact it's not. One should think of bluez dbus API as if it was a usual GUI, it maps to buttons and switches one-to-one.
Dec 23 06:58:37 <Undrwater1> i think i get the concept...head still not wrapped around it fully
Dec 23 07:03:33 <DocScrutinizer51> the main issue is usually nobody sticks a label to any of those switches and buttons
Dec 23 07:03:55 <DocScrutinizer51> also the manual is missing
Dec 23 07:04:34 <mwester> the fundamental issue is lazy programmers who think they can replace a proper set of basic commandline tools with an API and a lot of hand-waving.
Dec 23 07:04:57 <DocScrutinizer51> lol
Dec 23 07:05:01 <DocScrutinizer51> yeah
Dec 23 07:05:15 <mwester> It's like having a new stereo installed in your auto, and finding wires hanging out of the dashboard -- "just code your own knobs and switches"
Dec 23 07:12:32 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: the manual is there
Dec 23 07:12:58 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: in the "doc" directory of the sources. Called *-api.txt
Dec 23 07:13:39 <DocScrutinizer51> well. for this particular subsystem that may be the case
Dec 23 07:14:56 <PaulFertser> mwester: btw, i thought the same until i actually tried using bluez4 api. It seemed to me not so hard after i "got it". And for the most common tasks one can easily write bash or C-wrappers. I'm sure if someone did, Marcel would accept the tools in the repo.
Dec 23 07:17:08 <DocScrutinizer51> btw src/doc/* seems a poor home for a manual addressed to the *user*
Dec 23 07:19:08 <mwester> PaulFertser,  I'm sure I could write such a thing, just as I'm quite sure I can solder switches and controls to a radio in my auto's dashboard -- but that's not the point.  :)
Dec 23 07:20:16 <PaulFertser> mwester: the point is that most users do not need a set of proper command line tools to do bluetooth-related tasks anymore, and those who need that are satisfied with python or dbus-send solutions.
Dec 23 07:21:09 <mwester> I'm not.
Dec 23 07:21:19 <DocScrutinizer51> mwester: what your local time? seems you're really much smarter and more awake than me right now ;-)
Dec 23 07:21:37 <mwester> :) 1 AM here.
Dec 23 07:21:48 <mwester> I'm off to get some sleep, though.
Dec 23 07:25:39 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: I'm with mwester here. Your much appreciated work done is basically the damn duty of the original authors
Dec 23 07:33:17 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: i still disagree. I think the bluez4 api is in fact end-user api so if one needs it, he just uses it. There were omissions in the documentation regarding bluetooth networking. When i got it working i sent a patch to the documentation and it got accepted.
Dec 23 07:36:04 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: ok. I never had any look at bluez neither on the docs. Generally speaking a manual addressed to enduser is largely useless if it lives in source repository only
Dec 23 07:40:34 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: evidentally there *is* a way to interface via cmdline. It's called dbus-send. For a decent release there's probably missing the bluez manpage then
Dec 23 07:41:52 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: indeed, a manpage concatenating all of the api and giving dbus-send examples is missing, it would be mad useful.
Dec 23 08:07:42 <DocScrutinizer51> exactly. I wonder what happened to the policy of no code ever getting upstream without a manpage. Maybe there never was such policy?
Dec 23 08:11:32 <DocScrutinizer51> tbh this was one of the major reasons I started with unix - a manpage for everything. back in the 80s that's been a guaranteed property of *nix systems. At least afaik
Dec 23 08:31:33 <Heinervdm> Someone i here has a bluetooth handsfree (or sth else) that supports PBAP (showing missed calls and adressbook) ?
Dec 23 12:11:35 <pbaxter> hi all
Dec 23 16:24:57 <renilgh> Huhay
Dec 23 16:27:33 <renilgh> the topic-link to hackable1 release is missing a .html at the end 
Dec 23 16:28:45 <renilgh> got a Freerunner yesterday, have the feeling there's already something wrong with my uSD card - could someone point me to something i could use to check this?
Dec 23 16:29:23 <renilgh> just dd'ed the latest firmware onto the card but am unable to eject it now
Dec 23 16:38:12 <Heinervdm> renilgh: why do you dd the firmware on your card?
Dec 23 16:39:01 <Heinervdm> Someone i here has a bluetooth handsfree (or sth else) that supports PBAP (showing missed calls and adressbook) ?
Dec 23 16:41:15 <renilgh> Heinervdm: uhm, the wiki said so - i should dd the firmware image(!) to the card and then boot the freerunner from it
Dec 23 16:41:49 <Heinervdm> you normaly just extract the tar.gz on your sd card, and thats all
Dec 23 16:46:35 <renilgh> okay
Dec 23 16:47:47 <renilgh> so the uboot can boot from an .iso file?
Dec 23 16:47:55 <renilgh> i'm trying to follow http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo_FreeRunner#Updating_the_GSM_Firmware
Dec 23 16:48:27 <Heinervdm> renilgh: ah you're trying to flash the GSM firmware and no distro
Dec 23 16:48:32 <Heinervdm> that's sth different
Dec 23 16:48:55 <Heinervdm> renilgh: for that you have to use dd
Dec 23 16:49:54 <Heinervdm> and then that's the reason why you can
Dec 23 16:50:01 <Heinervdm> 't eject that card
Dec 23 16:50:02 <renilgh> yes, the firmware
Dec 23 16:50:27 <renilgh> uh, why exactly cannot i eject the card?
Dec 23 16:50:32 <renilgh> dd finished
Dec 23 16:50:45 <Heinervdm> you should have ejected that card before dd'ing ;)
Dec 23 16:50:58 <renilgh> ouch?
Dec 23 16:51:06 <renilgh> i thought i just had to umount it
Dec 23 16:51:08 <Heinervdm> now it probably has another device name
Dec 23 16:51:13 <Heinervdm> yes
Dec 23 16:51:14 <renilgh> aaah, ok
Dec 23 16:51:20 <Heinervdm> that's enough
Dec 23 16:51:46 <Heinervdm> eject won't do anything else as umount it, i think
Dec 23 16:51:57 <renilgh> no, device name seems still to be the same
Dec 23 16:52:08 <Heinervdm> just pull the card out
Dec 23 16:52:13 <renilgh> parted also shows the new partitions on it
Dec 23 16:52:33 <renilgh> okay, should i try to boot the freerunner from it?
Dec 23 16:52:44 <Heinervdm> parted scans the partition table, but your kernel doesn't
Dec 23 16:52:52 <Heinervdm> yes
Dec 23 16:56:11 <renilgh> looks good, thx (:
Dec 23 18:32:55 <rafa> hi
Dec 23 18:33:05 <rafa> there are openmoko gamers here?
Dec 23 18:45:44 <PBeck> hi
Dec 23 19:04:06 <badcloud_> rafa, yo
Dec 23 19:05:24 <rafa> badcloud_: I am going to release a distribution with games only, Would you be interested?
Dec 23 19:10:48 <badcloud_> no telephone app?
Dec 23 19:10:57 <badcloud_> I'm using it as a daily phone as well
Dec 23 19:11:24 <badcloud_> though it sounds like a neat idea anyway
Dec 23 19:11:26 <badcloud_> just not for me
Dec 23 19:14:18 <rafa> badcloud_: the idea is not for daily use. The idea is to have it in some extra sd
Dec 23 19:15:03 <rafa> badcloud_: So when you need a good dose of games you have that extra sd full of games
Dec 23 19:20:08 <lindi-> rafa: free software?
Dec 23 19:23:17 <rafa> lindi-: all the games free software. It will include some open source emulator (for example snes) which needs non open source roms. The use will decide if he wants to use those emulators. Of course, the distro will not include roms or other non open source stuff.
Dec 23 19:23:38 <rafa> The user will decide*
Dec 23 19:25:45 <badcloud_> rafa, what would you use for control input?
Dec 23 19:25:59 <badcloud_> *controller
Dec 23 19:27:15 <rafa> badcloud_: I did a simple game control app. You can define that you want to use to control the games. It can use touchscreen and accelerometers. You run the game and the game control app with command line arguments. The game control app sends key events to X, so the game running gets those events.
Dec 23 19:27:39 <badcloud_> nice
Dec 23 19:28:29 <rafa> The games will have pre defined arguments for the game control app. But you would be able to change the config.
Dec 23 19:34:04 <lindi-> rafa: do you consider flight of the amazon queen to be free?
Dec 23 19:35:16 <rafa> lindi-: it depends. I don't know such game. When I mean free I mean that it has a free software license.
Dec 23 19:35:20 <rafa> lindi-: which is the point?
Dec 23 19:35:59 <rafa> When I say free*
Dec 23 19:36:26 <lindi-> rafa: well there is no source code for it but the authors say you can distribute it
Dec 23 19:37:11 <rafa> ah, free to distribute. No, that is not free software and I am not going to include such kind of games.
Dec 23 19:37:56 <lindi-> rafa: authors say that you can also modify it if you want (but there is still no source code)
Dec 23 19:38:24 <lindi-> rafa: (scummvm can interpret the bytecode)
Dec 23 19:41:38 <rafa> lindi-: funny :) (if they use a known free software license you can ask for the source code). But anyway, I am not interested in such kind of games. If scummvm is free software (like I read some time ago) it could be included as well. And again, the user will decide to use non free games with it or no. ;)
Dec 23 19:42:17 <lindi-> rafa: why can you ask for the source code?
Dec 23 19:44:52 <rafa> simply because the license says that you can modify it. You can say them : hey, could I get the source code? I would like to modify it :)
Dec 23 19:45:52 <lindi-> rafa: the catch is that the authors have lost the source code 10 years ago
Dec 23 19:46:34 <cargill> not necessarily, if you consider a license that allows distribution of modified app, just that the only source you get is the bytecode...
Dec 23 19:46:38 <UndrWater> rafa: I love the idea
Dec 23 19:47:09 <cargill> wow
Dec 23 19:48:41 <rafa> cargill: lindi-: okey, if they lost the source code then they didn't like it much :) . I would not include such game, but you can do in your mobile phone ;)
Dec 23 19:49:32 <rafa> UndrWater: I am working to realese a first version soon. For christmas would be nice :)
Dec 23 19:49:44 <cargill> what would be the baseline of the distro?
Dec 23 19:50:01 <rafa> an old openmoko distro
Dec 23 19:50:09 <UndrWater> rafa: you'll announce on ML?
Dec 23 19:50:22 <rafa> UndrWater: sure, I will
Dec 23 19:50:56 <UndrWater> any idea of the size as of yet?
Dec 23 19:52:02 <rafa> cargill: there are cool games ready for such old openmoko distro already. And because I will not modify the base distro (I only want to port more games there only) that is okey for the goals (an SD with lot of fun :) )
Dec 23 19:52:36 <rafa> UndrWater: the distro is tiny and boots in 32 seconds ;) the games will use a lot of space :(
Dec 23 19:52:58 <UndrWater> more than a gig?
Dec 23 19:53:20 <rafa> UndrWater: nah.. at least for the first version. 
Dec 23 19:54:18 <rafa> UndrWater: I am using a 256MB SD to test, but I have not included all the games that there are ready. Perhaps 512MB is a proper SD for all the current games.
Dec 23 19:54:32 <Wonka> I have an 8gig uSDHC card... and am thinking about buying a 16gig
Dec 23 19:55:09 <UndrWater> sounds good ;)
Dec 23 19:55:13 <Wonka> on the 512meg card that came with the FR I have shr unstable
Dec 23 19:57:13 <rafa> Wonka: well, you can test the distro with games only first, and if you like the idea you can buy another non big SD (1gb) for the distro :)
Dec 23 20:00:22 <Wonka> will see...
Dec 23 20:00:50 <Wonka> btw, I am not subscribed to "The ML" - is there an archive on the web?
Dec 23 20:01:34 <rafa> Wonka: how do you get news about openmoko ? Perhaps I would have another useful way to announce or read things
Dec 23 20:01:48 <Wonka> planet.openmoko.org
Dec 23 20:07:00 <UndrWater> submit to community update...it'll make it to planet as well
Dec 23 20:08:00 <rafa> Wonka: UndrWater : okey, I need to work hard today and tomorrow, so we can have a version to test for christmas :D
Dec 23 20:08:23 <rafa> and then I will announce in ML and community update
Dec 23 20:11:56 <UndrWater> great!
Dec 23 21:10:54 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: (code without manpage) there's still a policy like that in Debian. Just somehow it doesn't include any dbus-apis, no matter if they're end-user targeted or not.
Dec 23 21:11:45 <wolf_> PaulFertser, sorry curious about this - what is the policy? that code should always come with a manpage?
Dec 23 21:14:04 <mwester> How could a dbus-api be targeted for an end-user??  That makes as much sense as saying an electrical appliance with bare wires where a plug should be is targetted at the typical consumer. :D  (The argument that a dbus-api might be targetted at "hackers/experimenters", such as those who would purchase the gta0x, is valid, though).
Dec 23 21:14:49 <mwester> valid for experimenters, but I still think insufficient... :)
Dec 23 21:32:48 <dando> hi to all.
Dec 23 21:32:56 <SpeedEvil> hi
Dec 23 21:34:50 <UndrWater> howdy
Dec 23 21:35:30 <badcloud_> aloha
Dec 23 21:37:25 <badcloud_> what distro at this point would you guys think is most suitable for the average end-user (if any)?
Dec 23 21:38:08 <badcloud_> av. end-user being someone who wants use of all gta0x's hw
Dec 23 21:38:29 <badcloud_> but not to the extent of writing software/tweaking hw
Dec 23 21:39:40 <dando> i have some problems with the bitbake recipes. my sourcecode compiles with autotools. standard: ./configure make make install on an amd64 no dependencies. But it wont compile with shr bitbake. do_install routine does not work. SRC_URI = "http://localhost/log2gpx-${PV}.tar.gz"
Dec 23 21:39:40 <dando> DEPENDS = ""
Dec 23 21:39:40 <dando> SECTION= "console/utils"
Dec 23 21:39:40 <dando> inherit autotools
Dec 23 21:40:11 <dando> ups
Dec 23 21:43:27 <dando> thats all i need to compile a hello world for example, isn't it ?
Dec 23 21:43:53 <dando> SRC_URI, DEPENDS and inherit
Dec 23 21:47:18 <UndrWater> badcloud_: how about tweaking config files?
Dec 23 21:47:37 <badcloud_> UndrWater, reasonable
Dec 23 21:47:41 <dando> make: *** No rule to make target `install'.  Stop.
Dec 23 21:47:41 <dando> FATAL: oe_runmake failed
Dec 23 21:47:46 <dando> thats all i get
Dec 23 21:48:01 <UndrWater> badcloud_: have you already looked at a couple of distros?
Dec 23 21:48:35 <badcloud_> sure, I've used shr-t, -u, h1 rev4, 5rc1, qtmoko
Dec 23 21:48:40 <badcloud_> and most of the om's
Dec 23 21:48:50 <badcloud_> but I was just asking as far as current status
Dec 23 21:48:59 <UndrWater> ahh...then have any met your requirement?
Dec 23 21:49:14 <badcloud_> I would say qtmoko comes pretty damn close
Dec 23 21:49:31 <badcloud_> thought I'd get another opinion
Dec 23 21:49:35 <UndrWater> i've used shr-u as phone...but missing simple bt headset config
Dec 23 21:49:47 <UndrWater> also, PIM seems to be lacking
Dec 23 21:50:06 <UndrWater> but that's pretty much the same for all of the distros...i need PIM and BT for daily use
Dec 23 21:50:14 <UndrWater> so i still use my Treo
Dec 23 21:50:16 <badcloud_> I see
Dec 23 21:50:44 <badcloud_> I haven't ventured into bt except for a brief struggle with a pocket bt kbd
Dec 23 21:50:55 <badcloud_> (with the neo)
Dec 23 21:51:10 <UndrWater> btheadset for me...it can work...but it's not pretty
Dec 23 21:51:20 <badcloud_> I see
Dec 23 21:51:38 <UndrWater> i think any distro using FSO can use it similarly
Dec 23 21:51:56 <badcloud_> which model headset do you use?
Dec 23 21:51:57 <UndrWater> pisi was just upgraded...so maybe PIM will be better now
Dec 23 21:52:02 <UndrWater> cardo s800
Dec 23 21:52:11 <UndrWater> GREAT headset
Dec 23 21:52:29 <UndrWater> very clear sound for both parties
Dec 23 21:52:35 <badcloud_> checking it out right now
Dec 23 21:52:37 <UndrWater> i use it for voice recognition as well
Dec 23 21:53:06 <UndrWater> (on windows)
Dec 23 21:53:24 <badcloud_> not cheap
Dec 23 21:53:41 <badcloud_> but from your description, worth the money?
Dec 23 21:53:56 <UndrWater> how much did u find it for?
Dec 23 21:54:02 <badcloud_> 60 eu
Dec 23 21:54:10 <UndrWater> i think i paid $40 US
Dec 23 21:54:14 <badcloud_> nice
Dec 23 21:54:17 <UndrWater> and cheaper on ebay
Dec 23 21:54:29 <badcloud_> sure
Dec 23 21:54:50 <UndrWater> compared with the many i've tried (including the really expensive ones...jawbone comes to mind), it's the best so far
Dec 23 21:54:50 <badcloud_> well, if I look for one, I'll start with that model
Dec 23 21:55:06 <badcloud_> how's the range?
Dec 23 21:55:43 <UndrWater> great sound up to about 3 meters maybe
Dec 23 21:55:53 <UndrWater> then pops and clicks start intruding
Dec 23 21:56:02 <badcloud_> cool
Dec 23 21:56:08 <badcloud_> thanks for the info
Dec 23 21:56:15 <UndrWater> NP
Dec 23 22:53:43 <jan1> hi all
Dec 23 22:54:01 <jan1> i was trying to create a swap file following the wiki
Dec 23 22:54:32 <jan1> but now i get this message after mkswap /swapfile:
Dec 23 22:54:55 <jan1> mkswap: /swapfile: warning: don't erase bootbits sectors
Dec 23 22:54:55 <jan1>         on whole disk. Use -f to force.
Dec 23 22:54:55 <jan1> Setting up swapspace version 1, size = 65532 KiB
Dec 23 22:54:55 <jan1> no label, UUID=ac5f8d3e-1449-49b7-9b78-fcdd45b6f491
Dec 23 22:55:30 <jan1> what does it mean? is it dangerous? should I use the -f option?
Dec 23 22:57:44 <yanu> mkswap /dev/??? with ??? the device-name
Dec 23 22:58:22 <SpeedEvil> it's irrelevant
Dec 23 22:58:38 <SpeedEvil> if you're making a swap file - an actual file - then it has no boot sector or stuff
Dec 23 22:58:43 <SpeedEvil> so it doesn't matter
Dec 23 23:00:01 <yanu> hmm, i must take some sleep, read it wrong ;) night
Dec 23 23:02:08 <jan1> SpeedEvil: so you are suggesting to use the -f option?
Dec 23 23:03:15 <SpeedEvil> It's irrelevant - if it's made the image already
Dec 23 23:03:22 <SpeedEvil> just try swapon /swapfile
Dec 23 23:04:24 <jan1> that results in:
Dec 23 23:04:34 <jan1> swapon: /swapfile: swapon failed: Invalid argument
Dec 23 23:05:08 <jan1> maybe because the mkswap command failed?
Dec 23 23:05:37 <SpeedEvil> yes - possibly
Dec 23 23:05:46 <SpeedEvil> try -f
Dec 23 23:05:52 <jan1> OK, I'll take the risk and use -f
Dec 23 23:07:00 <jan1> mkswap -f /swapfile
Dec 23 23:07:00 <jan1> Setting up swapspace version 1, size = 65532 KiB
Dec 23 23:07:04 <jan1> but:
Dec 23 23:07:13 <jan1> swapon /swapfile 
Dec 23 23:07:13 <jan1> swapon: /swapfile: swapon failed: Invalid argument
Dec 23 23:07:40 <jan1> so swapon still does not work...
Dec 23 23:13:38 <SpeedEvil> swap can't be done on some classes of filesystems
Dec 23 23:13:43 <SpeedEvil> namely compressed ones
Dec 23 23:14:46 <jan1> I've a jffs2 file system
Dec 23 23:14:52 <jan1> is that compressed?
Dec 23 23:14:54 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 23 23:15:04 <jan1> thanks
Dec 23 23:15:14 <jan1> thats probably the problem then
Dec 23 23:15:51 <jan1> I'll try to create a swap on my uSD card then
Dec 23 23:19:17 <jan1> SpeedEvil: that worked. thanks again.
Dec 23 23:24:58 <max_posedon> SpeedEvil, sorry, can't or useless or smth like this?
Dec 23 23:36:12 <SpeedEvil> ? max_posedon
Dec 23 23:37:13 <max_posedon> I don't understand why swap(swap-file) can't be created on jffs2
Dec 23 23:37:42 <SpeedEvil> max_posedon: because it can't.
Dec 23 23:37:50 <SpeedEvil> The swap subsystem does not support it
Dec 23 23:42:07 <max_posedon> I see now, big surprise for me, I thought swap file can be done on anything.
Dec 24 02:26:57 <gonzoism> i had been gathering cells in offline for a week.  thousands of miles of travel.  got home today, and there was no data to submit. :(
Dec 24 02:27:03 <gonzoism> just today i traveled 500 miles.  nothing
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 02:59:57 2009