**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 17 02:59:58 2010
May 17 07:06:06 <Wonka> hmm...
May 17 07:15:36 <badcloud> I might be shouted off this channel for blasphemous thougts, but is there any way to run iphone apps on the fr?
May 17 07:19:38 <Heinervdm> badcloud: iPhone is armv7, isn't it?
May 17 07:28:55 <badcloud> Heinervdm: hmmm, I don't know
May 17 07:29:01 <badcloud> that would really hamper the idea
May 17 07:35:47 <shaz> mrmoku: ERROR: Error Method already seen: devshell_emit_env in' devshell.bb' now in 'ti-devshell.bb'
May 17 07:36:05 <shaz> The build is proceeding but is this fine
May 17 16:01:43 <yamitenshi> Hi
May 17 17:12:31 <yamitenshi> Hi, I have a little question. What would be the best distribution for daily use?
May 17 17:40:19 <gena2x> yamitenshi: qtmoko
May 17 17:40:23 <gena2x> :)
May 17 17:40:30 <gena2x> v22
May 17 18:05:10 <yamitenshi> dammit, didn't see that the UI freezes when GPRS is set to always online xD Guess I'll have to reflash... oh well, seems to connect to my mobile network just fine, that's what's most important :) Thanks, gena2x :)
May 17 18:07:05 <yamitenshi> Also, seems like app development isn't as much a pain as it was for Qtopia/Qt Extended :D
May 17 18:09:16 <gena2x> qtmoko have debian under feet so you may just compile stuff natively
May 17 18:09:43 <gena2x> and all tools available in one apt-get install
May 17 18:10:44 <gena2x> combined with stable telephony and fast gui i think this is very good solution
May 17 18:13:27 <PaulFertser> It lacks my emacs UI, i think that's a major drawback ;)
May 17 18:14:18 <gena2x> Paul, i guess emacs -nw will work in terminal :P
May 17 18:14:26 <thrashold> I want Vim UI!
May 17 18:15:01 <thrashold> (Also, ScummVM UI would make sense, too, it's fast-ah)
May 17 18:15:14 <thrashold> It's the fastest thing I have on my phone
May 17 18:15:22 <thrashold> Or the only thing that isn't slow?
May 17 18:16:00 <thrashold> Unless I run The Curse of Monkey Island there, if I do, it's just a bit slower than Enlightenment
May 17 18:17:58 <thrashold> Maybe I should fork it
May 17 18:19:27 <djp_> has the latest shr-unstable release (17.5.2010) fixed the suspend issue? (basically, unable to bring shr-unstable back to life if the freerunner is suspended)
May 17 18:19:34 <gena2x> qtmoko is not slow
May 17 18:19:49 <gena2x> at all
May 17 18:20:05 <yamitenshi> From what I see, it's pretty fast
May 17 18:20:39 <thrashold> Cna you do PyQt there?
May 17 18:20:54 <djp_> gena2x: do you recommend qtmoko over shr-unstable? i'm currently finding that shr-unstable has issues with suspend, which is meaning my freerunner's battery is struggling to last a day
May 17 18:21:23 <gena2x> ok,ok sd card is not fast, and compilation is a bit slow but everything else is ok
May 17 18:22:42 <gena2x> djp_: i not aware of current SHR state. last time i saw it where were still no nodebug pathes.
May 17 18:23:38 <yamitenshi> thrashold: I don't see why not
May 17 18:24:03 <thrashold> yamitenshi: Because I couldn't with Qtopia back then :) (There weren't any Python bindings, etc.)
May 17 18:24:15 <gena2x> djp_: about battery, my observations is that qtmoko consume more battery than shr, but i really don't care and didn't done precise measurements
May 17 18:24:44 <gena2x> djp_: i am just keeping phone always connected to charger
May 17 18:24:46 <yamitenshi> thrashold: This is just debian with Qt Extended on top, so python shouldn't be a problem, I guess
May 17 18:25:04 <djp_> gena2x: ah, ok. thanks for the info.
May 17 18:25:52 <thrashold> yamitenshi: Does this use special replace qt libraries to work?
May 17 18:25:57 <thrashold> replaced
May 17 18:26:01 <gena2x> djp_: only thing i notice about battery is once i forgot phone in bag and put it out after 2 or 3 days and were sure it were discharged.
May 17 18:26:12 <yamitenshi> thrashold: not that I know of, not sure though
May 17 18:26:29 <yamitenshi> I guess you could just install Qt though, from the debian repos
May 17 18:26:30 <gena2x> djp_: but i was wrong, i resume it and got half of charge
May 17 18:26:57 <gena2x> djp_: think this is effect of 1024 fix. (thanks to Paul)
May 17 18:27:53 <thrashold> yamitenshi: This would make it pointless, the idea is to create Python apps that don't require X :)
May 17 18:28:05 <yamitenshi> hmm
May 17 18:28:32 <yamitenshi> not sure that can be done with qtmoko... I don't really do python :P
May 17 18:33:17 <PaulFertser> gena2x: of course it will, but there's no FSO api available.
May 17 18:33:40 <PaulFertser> thrashold: in fact i'm considering learning Haskell and writing vim-inspired ncurses FSO ui ;)
May 17 18:33:46 <yamitenshi> Also, I was wondering, for some distros I see modules-blahblah.tgz files, what exactly are these for?
May 17 18:34:33 <thrashold> PaulFertser: Haskell? :/ At least go for Scheme or Erlang or something sane :D
May 17 18:35:06 <PaulFertser> thrashold: well, lisp and haskell are like two poles of FP.
May 17 18:35:27 <PaulFertser> thrashold: lisp is elegance through simplicity, haskell is power through complexity.
May 17 18:35:30 <PaulFertser> ;)
May 17 18:35:39 <PaulFertser> At least to my uneducated pov.
May 17 18:35:45 <thrashold> Anything that features complexity is something I stay away from :D
May 17 18:35:52 <PaulFertser> thrashold: i see no reason to do UI in erlang at all.
May 17 18:36:10 <thrashold> No, but I'd rather learn Erlang than learn Haskell
May 17 18:36:40 <PaulFertser> thrashold: why? Now i'm really convinced that any CS-loving person should be exposed to Haskell to at least some degree.
May 17 18:36:45 <thrashold> It has more than the 3 programs written in Haskell
May 17 18:37:14 <thrashold> And one of them is even useful (and I have used it)
May 17 18:37:15 <PaulFertser> thrashold: Haskell is the best example of modern FP.  
May 17 18:37:26 <PaulFertser> thrashold: i'm going to start using xmonad really soon.
May 17 18:37:49 <thrashold> The only Haskell program that I could think that anyone would use is GHC :D
May 17 18:37:51 <PaulFertser> thrashold: btw, as far as i could understand, F# takes a lot from Haskell, even ms understands its value.
May 17 18:38:39 <thrashold> I don't think that something that Microsoft likes is a good indicator for anything
May 17 18:39:20 <thrashold> And hey, I have written a min function in Haskell!
May 17 18:39:23 <PaulFertser> thrashold: i say that to demonstrate Haskell concepts are not insane or overly complex.
May 17 18:40:21 <thrashold> Vala uses many C concepts, which doesn't mean that writing C isn't overly complex
May 17 18:40:54 <PaulFertser> Hm, i'm not sure Vala uses C concepts, can you give a few examples?
May 17 18:41:35 <thrashold> Just the fact that it is C-like should be enough (although I'm not sure if C is the first C-like language?)
May 17 18:41:59 <PaulFertser> thrashold: being C-like is not a concept. And i do not see how Vala is C-like
May 17 18:43:02 <PaulFertser> thrashold: i mean Vala is said to by like Python and C#, borrowing heavily from those languages.
May 17 18:45:11 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: you need kernel modules matching the kernel you use.
May 17 18:45:43 <yamitenshi> PaulFertser: don't they come with the rootfs?
May 17 18:45:44 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: the modules are loaded from /lib/modules/`uname -r`
May 17 18:45:52 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: what if you change the kernel?
May 17 18:45:52 <thrashold> imperative, structured, has the same syntax ( { } for blocks, ( ) for functions, etc.), has the simple types of C (with different name), has pointers
May 17 18:46:05 <yamitenshi> PaulFertser: hmm, good point :P
May 17 18:46:47 <thrashold> has low-level memory stuff (I have not used any language but C and Cython that has this)
May 17 18:46:55 <PaulFertser> thrashold: well, pointers is something uncommon for modern imperative languages, yes. Other than that...
May 17 18:47:17 <thrashold> Most modern imperative languages are also C-like
May 17 18:48:44 <thrashold> My point was that if you take concepts froms omething complex, the result might be simple.
May 17 18:49:02 <PaulFertser> thrashold: using {} for blocks etc means nothing. And btw, do you know the next C++ standard has support for lambdas? And that C++'s templates are in fact a full-featured compile-time language on its own?
May 17 18:49:13 <thrashold> and F# doesn't look like something I'd want to go near anyway (well, after first look at the syntax, which might be deceptive, but still)
May 17 18:49:35 <thrashold> The last thing sounds awful
May 17 18:49:47 <thrashold> But that's what I've always thought of C++ anyway :D
May 17 18:50:28 <PaulFertser> thrashold: you might say C++ is also C-like but i do not think it's quite true. As to the advanced templates techniques, take a look at the list of the projects using the Boost library.
May 17 18:51:47 <PaulFertser> thrashold: lol, and also you might enjoy boost's preprocessor library, that's mad insane stuff.
May 17 18:52:19 <thrashold> Oh? What does that even mean? They use different language than CPP?
May 17 18:52:27 <thrashold> or what?
May 17 18:52:52 <PaulFertser> thrashold: they (ab)use the C preprocessor in a very creative way to get some very important features for meta-programming.
May 17 18:52:55 <thrashold> Also: \http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/
May 17 18:53:58 <thrashold> Also there's a turing machine written in CPP that won the ioccc
May 17 18:54:04 <djp_> are there any other people here who use shr-unstable on their freerunner?
May 17 18:56:32 <PaulFertser> thrashold: lol
May 17 18:59:14 <thrashold> For any turing machine, the compiled program will have O(1) execution time for *any* problem, thus spitting out the solution to a NP-complete problem in constant time
May 17 18:59:21 <thrashold> It can be useful for the FR
May 17 18:59:35 <thrashold> if you wrote a program in CPP, it would run insanely fast after compilation :D
May 17 19:00:09 <thrashold> Like, running it would take no time at all (which could be a problem for programs in a sleep loop)
May 17 19:00:12 * mickeyl notes all is moot when you have to wait for the hardware
May 17 19:00:50 <thrashold> It won't matter, the program won't wait for the hardware, but it already has (during compilation)
May 17 19:03:20 <djp_> PaulFertser: what distro are you currently using on your freerunner?
May 17 19:03:48 <mjr> IIRC CPP isn't actually Turing-complete and what they did do with it was a Towers of Hanoi solver
May 17 19:04:29 <PaulFertser> djp_: debian
May 17 19:04:44 <PaulFertser> djp_: i've written a mail to the community mailing list describing my setup lately.
May 17 19:04:52 <thrashold> mjr: You can run always CPP twice.
May 17 19:05:16 <PaulFertser> djp_: it's debian with natively compiled FSO+FSO2 (from git HEAD), and an Emacs UI.
May 17 19:08:12 <djp_> PaulFertser: thanks. yes, far more advanced than little me! ;) i use my freerunner as a basic mobile phone. shr-unstable has really improved for that, regards call quality. unfortunately the suspend issue that has started to appear, means that without suspend on, i get roughly 11 hours of battery life :(
May 17 19:09:33 <PaulFertser> djp_: are you using .32 kernel?
May 17 19:09:52 <PaulFertser> djp_: because if yes, there're still problems with it.
May 17 19:10:07 <PaulFertser> djp_: basically, most SHR developers use unstable and suspend works for them.
May 17 19:11:24 <yamitenshi> djp_: can you tell me what the advantages and disadvantages of unstable as opposed to testing are?
May 17 19:11:53 <djp_> PaulFertser: using uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin dated 13.5.2010
May 17 19:12:02 <gena2x> PaulFertser: FSO api is not target i think. mine target is stable sms/gsm. nothing more from phone side. so why fso?
May 17 19:12:03 <thrashold> djp_: uname -a ?
May 17 19:12:25 <djp_> thrashold: let me check...
May 17 19:12:54 <djp_> thrashold: it needs to power up... battery has run dry ;)
May 17 19:13:07 <gena2x> PaulFertser: also i guess that one day qt can be ported to X11, so it can work in line with other X programs.
May 17 19:14:39 <PaulFertser> gena2x: qt telephony stack proved to be sucky from hacker's pov, so i do not care about it.
May 17 19:14:58 <PaulFertser> gena2x: if it didn't suck, OM2008 would be a success.
May 17 19:15:36 <djp_> thrashold: 2.6.29-rc3
May 17 19:16:08 <PaulFertser> gena2x: and keep in mind FSO is not only GSM phone calls API, it also includes many other things really needed for a smartphone.
May 17 19:16:13 <gena2x> PaulFertser: (whisper) I just fond of C++. :)
May 17 19:16:48 <djp_> PaulFertser: so no, i'm not using the .32 kernel...
May 17 19:16:48 <PaulFertser> gena2x: Qt is not "true" C++, that's rather a very small subset of it. They're not even STL-compatible really.
May 17 19:16:56 <PaulFertser> djp_: what bootloader are you using?
May 17 19:17:35 <PaulFertser> gena2x: Qt's C++ is like Java, to get stupid coders happy.
May 17 19:17:40 <PaulFertser> IMHO
May 17 19:17:43 <gena2x> PaulFertser: The templates is not "only valid true" C++
May 17 19:17:52 <djp_> PaulFertser: qi
May 17 19:18:05 <PaulFertser> gena2x: the Qt preprocessor is not C++ at all.
May 17 19:18:22 <PaulFertser> djp_: reasonably new, i hope?
May 17 19:18:30 <gena2x> PaulFertser: In c++ you can write as in C, with or without templates, with or without classes and this still be C++
May 17 19:18:32 <PaulFertser> djp_: are you running from NAND or SD?
May 17 19:18:38 <djp_> PaulFertser: NAND
May 17 19:18:55 <gena2x> PaulFertser: Only different people start to throw boulders on you :)
May 17 19:19:04 <djp_> PaulFertser: i haven't updated the bootloader since last year... probably a year old to be honest
May 17 19:19:09 <PaulFertser> gena2x: templates are the distinguishing feature of C++, it's the core making it as power as it might get.
May 17 19:19:23 <max_posedon> PaulFertser, Qt "not compatible" - BS, Qt is like Java - BS, Qt preprocessor - not C++ - true, but C/C++ haven't preprocessors
May 17 19:19:24 <PaulFertser> djp_: hm, i do not think it can influence it.
May 17 19:19:35 <max_posedon> compiler have preprocessors, not the language
May 17 19:19:45 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: preprocessor is part of the language.
May 17 19:20:04 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: Qt doesn't use native STL containers and other nice features.
May 17 19:20:05 <djp_> PaulFertser: the problem has only reared its head since the last few updates
May 17 19:20:06 <max_posedon> preprocessor can be part of library
May 17 19:20:15 <max_posedon> PaulFertser, doesn't use != not compatible
May 17 19:20:16 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: library is part of the language.
May 17 19:20:26 <max_posedon> only if it comes in stdlib
May 17 19:20:29 <PaulFertser> standard library
May 17 19:20:31 <gena2x> PaulFertser: the goal is not always get unltimate power. goal is to do stable predictable system, easy to understand support and extend.
May 17 19:20:39 <PaulFertser> CPP is part of the language, STL is part of the language.
May 17 19:21:04 <gena2x> PaulFertser: So, everything must be used as needed
May 17 19:21:12 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: i meant Qt makes C++ as easy as Java
May 17 19:21:32 <PaulFertser> makes C++ _seem_
May 17 19:21:49 <max_posedon> PaulFertser, hm, its not so bad)
May 17 19:21:51 <djp_> PaulFertser: maybe i should just drop back to an earlier version of shr-unstable/kernel and see if the problem disappears. then i'll definitely know it's related to the latest release
May 17 19:22:03 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I don't think so. C++ have poiters. C++ is standard. C++ is natively compiled
May 17 19:22:05 <PaulFertser> And then some jerks will brag they know C++ while not knowing a tiny bit about the real power of C++.
May 17 19:22:24 <PaulFertser> djp_: do you have _any_ feedback after you try to resume?
May 17 19:22:44 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i'm afraid you do not get my point
May 17 19:22:56 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I saw multimillium lines projects without any templates written in C++.
May 17 19:23:34 <djp_> PaulFertser: when i press the button to resume, the screen flashes, appears totally black and then there is a flashing cursor "_" in the top left corner of the screen
May 17 19:23:46 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i do not like Qt because it somehow simplifies C++ to the point "bidlocoders" can like it. I think a modern UI toolkit written in C++ can be 10x more elegant if it used "advanced" C++ techniques.
May 17 19:23:56 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I just enumerated some differences C++ vs java.
May 17 19:23:58 <PaulFertser> djp_: what about usb networking?
May 17 19:24:10 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you took my comparision too literally.
May 17 19:25:02 <max_posedon> Advanced C++ techniques usually have 10x compile time)
May 17 19:25:30 <gena2x> PaulFertser: things i enumerated are very important, so it's hard to say that Java is equal to C++
May 17 19:25:35 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i'm unhappy with Qt because it's the most widely known and used C++ toolkit while being not elegant in a C++ way. If they had rewritten the Qt with all the features from STL and Boost around Qt3-Qt4, it'd be a really elegant design.
May 17 19:26:02 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: was true but it changed a lot with gcc 4.5, really.
May 17 19:26:05 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I did some job with Qt last year.
May 17 19:26:13 <max_posedon> it was 100x before
May 17 19:26:17 <PaulFertser> Heh
May 17 19:26:20 <max_posedon> with gcc-4.5 its just 10x
May 17 19:26:43 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I don't like this direction (STL -> own) also, but this don't make qt worse
May 17 19:26:50 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: you should write good code and think in advance, then compilation time doesn't matter. ;)
May 17 19:27:13 <max_posedon> such nice utopia)
May 17 19:27:17 <djp_> PaulFertser: not sure... shall i try now and enable suspend?
May 17 19:27:33 <PaulFertser> djp_: try suspending with echo mem > /sys/power/state
May 17 19:27:44 <djp_> PaulFertser: will do
May 17 19:27:51 <gena2x> PaulFertser: At work, you ofter have to archieve result fast (at least faster than others). And qt is extremly good for C++ people.
May 17 19:28:37 <gena2x> PaulFertser: Otherwise c-shrpers just kill you.
May 17 19:28:39 <PaulFertser> gena2x: well, i do not care about UI much, but i like elegant and powerful things. The way Qt uses C++ is neither elegant, nor powerful, at least it doesn't seem so to anybody who knows C++ a little bit more than an average coder.  
May 17 19:30:24 <PaulFertser> gena2x: so my unhappiness with Qt is that it's inelegant. Not talking about fast or convenient, as i'm not interested in that.
May 17 19:30:55 <gena2x> PaulFertser: Signal slot concept is good - why not?
May 17 19:31:12 <gena2x> PaulFertser: Nothing more 'custom' in qt i think.
May 17 19:31:25 <max_posedon> PaulFertser, "advanced" C++ don't know about threads
May 17 19:31:32 <PaulFertser> gena2x: because they use an external preprocessor (which is ugly by design) instead of switching to a pure C++ implementation (libsigc++).
May 17 19:31:33 <max_posedon> don't care about thread safety
May 17 19:31:56 <djp_> PaulFertser: ok, suspended it using echo mem... shall i try and bring it out of suspend by pressing the button?
May 17 19:32:02 <PaulFertser> djp_: yes
May 17 19:32:12 <max_posedon> its stupid compare structures which ready to multi threads and which not
May 17 19:32:16 <gena2x> threadsafe is other complex problem...
May 17 19:32:26 <max_posedon> its stupid compare COW and not COW structures
May 17 19:32:28 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: yes, thread safety is out of the consideration here
May 17 19:32:34 <djp_> PaulFertser: ok... i'll give it a minute or two. it only seems to have the issue if left for a couple of minutes...
May 17 19:33:00 <max_posedon> PaulFertser, Qt structures - cow, stl not cow
May 17 19:33:39 <max_posedon> stl not better than qt structs, qt structs not better than stl
May 17 19:33:44 <max_posedon> they just different!
May 17 19:34:12 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: the upcoming standard has support for multithreading
May 17 19:34:33 <max_posedon> but COW for stl doesn't comes
May 17 19:34:52 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: Qt strikes for simplicity and ease of use, i do not like those goals.
May 17 19:34:59 <gena2x> max_posedon: qt stl and c++ all have ordinary structures, what do you mean?
May 17 19:35:19 <max_posedon> gena2x, they haven't
May 17 19:35:44 <gena2x> max_posedon: can you describe the difference?
May 17 19:35:48 <max_posedon> gena2x, look at qt's implementation
May 17 19:36:00 <max_posedon> when you have smth big(1'000'000 qlist)
May 17 19:36:01 <gena2x> struct ABC { int a; };?
May 17 19:36:03 <djp_> PaulFertser: ok, it came out of suspend ok. by the way, how do i get activity back at my prompt on my computer?
May 17 19:36:07 <max_posedon> and when you doing, copy
May 17 19:36:22 <PaulFertser> djp_: activity?
May 17 19:36:52 <max_posedon> its just doing refcount++
May 17 19:37:13 <djp_> PaulFertser: my command prompt where i typed echo mem... is just flashing "_"
May 17 19:37:29 <PaulFertser> djp_: for me ssh resumes operation on its own
May 17 19:37:36 <PaulFertser> djp_: i mean i do nothing extra
May 17 19:37:36 <gena2x> max_posedon: I though this is only for small set of QObjects
May 17 19:37:37 <djp_> PaulFertser: basically, it hasn't returned to the prompt
May 17 19:37:50 <djp_> PaulFertser: ok
May 17 19:38:35 <max_posedon> gena2x, its for all
May 17 19:38:51 <max_posedon> and if you doing developemnt on qt, its good idea do the same for your structures
May 17 19:39:54 <gena2x> max_posedon: I did multithreaded development with qt.
May 17 19:40:21 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: i'm not sure lazy copy for containers is a generally good idea
May 17 19:40:42 <gena2x> max_posedon: I think everything must be used in appopriate places
May 17 19:41:00 <gena2x> max_posedon: So, add recounting only then they are really needed
May 17 19:41:16 <max_posedon> doesn't means what we think, real programs and tests are proofs
May 17 19:41:18 <djp_> PaulFertser: ok... it seems that it will come out of suspend when i issue the command to suspend it from the command prompt. however, i always need to kill my ssh process to get any further response from my computer
May 17 19:41:20 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: and you can add cow easily whenever you need that
May 17 19:42:02 <max_posedon> not so easy, for stl structs
May 17 19:42:20 <max_posedon> it will kills most of their features
May 17 19:43:37 <gena2x> max_posedon: why use refcounting if you can just use pointer?
May 17 19:43:59 <PaulFertser> gena2x: if you take a look at where C++ is going (lead by the leading experts in the area) you'll see it bears no resemblance with what Qt fans are doing.
May 17 19:44:19 <PaulFertser> s/pointer/smart pointer/
May 17 19:45:09 <max_posedon> gena2x, to be able *copy*
May 17 19:45:23 <max_posedon> sometimes you need make changes, in say, 5% cases
May 17 19:45:31 <gena2x> max_posedon: you always can copy.
May 17 19:45:41 <max_posedon> and code will be full of copy
May 17 19:46:03 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: smart pointers can help implementing COW 
May 17 19:46:51 <gena2x> max_posedon: And you do not want to know where 5mb QImage copy occur :)?
May 17 19:48:31 <gena2x> max_posedon: nothing wrong with copy in code. why not? get any C++ program without any COW and you'll that where is not so much copy as you want :)
May 17 19:48:52 <PaulFertser> Hehe, here the Qt guy explains why they're not using advanced features: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/08/25/count-with-me-how-many-smart-pointer-classes-does-qt-have/
May 17 19:49:58 <max_posedon> gena2x, I know when, but I do want a compiler support to checks.
May 17 19:50:36 <gena2x> max_posedon: checks??? what kind of checks?
May 17 19:51:09 <max_posedon> mainly const checks
May 17 19:51:12 <PaulFertser> All the reasons listed by that Qt dev are not important for me, in fact it's the opposite.
May 17 19:51:29 <gena2x> max_posedon: (I don't like any extra checks)
May 17 19:51:40 <max_posedon> but, I do)
May 17 19:52:29 <max_posedon> I don't want prove that qt is the best, I just want to say, that all qt desisions was done keeping some use cases in mind
May 17 19:52:42 <max_posedon> and I think, they do the best system for writing GUI apps
May 17 19:53:05 <max_posedon> qt might be not nice for server side, for console tools
May 17 19:53:18 <max_posedon> but as for GUI - the are rocks imho
May 17 19:53:25 <gena2x> max_posedon: I like qt too. May be i just didn't anything better for gui. If something exist - point me :)
May 17 19:54:00 <PaulFertser> "Binary compatibility policies", ewww, fuck them
May 17 19:54:16 <max_posedon> I did gtk, I did opengl, I did some-custom-game-ui, I did wx
May 17 19:54:29 <gena2x> max_posedon: And Paul seem just like man who naver were forced to write GUI.
May 17 19:54:40 <max_posedon> he is happy man, imho)
May 17 19:54:50 <gena2x> max_posedon: Sure :)
May 17 19:56:14 <gena2x> PaulFertser: Binary compatibility is very important thing...
May 17 19:56:26 <PaulFertser> gena2x: how's so?
May 17 19:56:36 <max_posedon> its not important when you compile coreutils
May 17 19:56:44 <max_posedon> but if you have system like a KDE...
May 17 19:57:13 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i did write several small gui utilities recently for the host. I choosed C and gtk for the task, it was ok for me.
May 17 19:57:14 <max_posedon> and if you have a team > 100 people working on one project
May 17 19:57:39 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: i also did some delphi programming 10 years ago and "c++builder" about 3 years ago.
May 17 19:58:22 <PaulFertser> I even know/knew some winapi, mfc and wtl!
May 17 19:59:10 <max_posedon> ))
May 17 19:59:39 <PaulFertser> And i'm fucking unhappy mostly, but i guess that's unrelated to GUI programming.
May 17 20:00:01 <PaulFertser> That doesn't mean binary compatibility worth anything though.
May 17 20:00:09 <gena2x> ok, ok we went for far in discrussion and topic became so wide while particular question are left undecided and nobody comvienced
May 17 20:00:12 <PaulFertser> You just recompile the thing, that's all.
May 17 20:00:39 <PaulFertser> Gentooers do recompile of everything every now and then, not a big deal.
May 17 20:01:08 <gena2x> no-no, don't make topic even wider! 
May 17 20:01:26 <PaulFertser> gena2x: binary compatibility is the most important point i found in that blogpost.
May 17 20:02:05 <PaulFertser> gena2x: (making the topic wider would be if i offered to discuss "why life sucks and what to do about it" in details)
May 17 20:03:11 <gena2x> <PaulFertser> And i'm fucking unhappy ... :)
May 17 20:03:12 <PaulFertser> And making it narrower would be going back to "why hackers do not like qtopia phone stack".
May 17 20:03:23 <PaulFertser> It wasn't an offer to discuss.
May 17 20:03:42 <gena2x> and <PaulFertser> Gentooers ... :)
May 17 20:04:03 <PaulFertser> gena2x: yep, to proof the idea binary compatibility worth nothing
May 17 20:04:14 <PaulFertser> s/proof/prove/
May 17 20:04:15 <apt> PaulFertser meant: gena2x: yep, to prove the idea binary compatibility worth nothing
May 17 20:04:22 <yamitenshi> Wait, is this turning into a discussion about how wide this topic really is now? :P
May 17 20:04:55 <PaulFertser> Meta-discussion, just in the spirit of previous "should C++ have meta-programming" topic :)))
May 17 20:06:05 <yamitenshi> Heheh, half of the talk here is Chinese to me anyway :P I can do some fairly simple things, but that's pretty much it :')
May 17 20:06:40 <PaulFertser> Same for me, as i do not know much about C++ in fact ;)
May 17 20:06:48 <PaulFertser> I just use some buzzwords
May 17 20:07:08 <gena2x> PaulFertser: In fact i need a day to write good arguments for each point of our discussion
May 17 20:07:39 <PaulFertser> gena2x: of course, and a day before to agree on the points themselves.
May 17 20:07:57 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i'm not sure either of us want to spend the effort really.
May 17 20:08:08 <gena2x> PaulFertser: and as I have no discussion become useless :(
May 17 20:08:21 <PaulFertser> It's just that i would rather spend my personal time learning Gtk than my work time learning Qt.
May 17 20:12:25 <max_posedon> I suggest learn qt implementation
May 17 20:12:39 <max_posedon> there is some nice ideas inside
May 17 20:12:45 <max_posedon> (if you want C++ of course)
May 17 20:14:38 <PaulFertser> If i learned C++, i'd learn boost, metaprogramming and other "advanced" topics.
May 17 20:15:57 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: also, i read trolltech patch submitting rules once.
May 17 20:16:18 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: they're so horrible that the product worth boycotting
May 17 20:16:53 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: basically it's "give us BSD licensed patches and if we decide so, you can get them back GPLd some time later"
May 17 20:17:02 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: that was before Qt went LGPL
May 17 20:17:21 <PaulFertser> max_posedon: but this kind of policy is an eternal taint in my pov.
May 17 20:18:00 <max_posedon> I don't allow any politics be more important than technical side
May 17 20:18:24 <PaulFertser> I do not allow any technical shit be more important than morals.
May 17 20:19:43 <PaulFertser> It doesn't matter if you friend can code GUI an a fast and nice way, but it does matter you trust him to not screw you ever.
May 17 20:20:03 <PaulFertser> (time to sleep now for me, apparently, too many typos :|)
May 17 20:20:04 <gena2x> PaulFertser: I just want to go back a bit to beginning :). to summarize - good side of qtmoko for me is C++ (contrary to python of vala). Nothing wrong that only subset of C++ used in qt, in fact i like exactly this subset which used qt, not othercompications of templates.
May 17 20:21:01 <gena2x> PaulFertser: all-in-one of FSO is questinable
May 17 20:21:14 <PaulFertser> FSO is a set of APIs.
May 17 20:21:32 <PaulFertser> gena2x: implemented in different daemons now
May 17 20:21:37 <slaxxer> wine anybody
May 17 20:21:54 <PaulFertser> You can use any combination the way you want it.
May 17 20:22:08 <yamitenshi> slaxxer: No thanks, I'm a beer guy ;)
May 17 20:22:16 <slaxxer> ::))
May 17 20:22:17 <PaulFertser> slaxxer: i'd like some...
May 17 20:22:32 <gena2x> i prefer pure water :)
May 17 20:22:43 <yamitenshi> vodka? :P
May 17 20:23:06 <gena2x> no, this is not water for me.
May 17 20:23:06 <slaxxer> i was speaking of wine "the emulator thats not an emulator
May 17 20:23:08 <gena2x> :)
May 17 20:23:17 <PaulFertser> Vodka is strange: doesn't make much sense unless you have some good stuff to eat along with it.
May 17 20:23:20 <yamitenshi> it's russian for water :P
May 17 20:23:55 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: please tell us more about russian, we're all ears ;)
May 17 20:24:00 <yamitenshi> slaxxer: windows sucks anyway, why try to not-really-emulate it? :P
May 17 20:24:09 <slaxxer> yea
May 17 20:24:21 <yamitenshi> PaulFertser: it's 33.33333% of all the russian I know :P
May 17 20:24:36 <gena2x> yamitenshi: increase you counter by 3
May 17 20:24:57 <gena2x> so you have now 11%.
May 17 20:25:24 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: i suggest this to vastly improve your knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mat
May 17 20:25:42 <gena2x> and no, please, don't finish interesting discussion with nations!!!
May 17 20:26:09 <gena2x> :) I've gone to my bluetooth...
May 17 20:27:02 <yamitenshi> xD
May 17 20:27:32 <yamitenshi> PaulFertser: Might actually be useful at work, if I can ever pronounce the words right :P
May 17 20:27:43 <yamitenshi> not that anyone here notices if I pronounce them wrong :P
May 17 20:28:27 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: mad useful at work, in fact we use that every day.
May 17 20:28:37 <yamitenshi> lol
May 17 20:28:54 <slaxxer> i was under the inpression the reason for switching to vala  was to change things to c++
May 17 20:29:07 <slaxxer>   is that incorrect?
May 17 20:30:23 <PaulFertser> slaxxer: vala compiles to C which compiles to fast native code
May 17 20:37:56 <PaulFertser> yamitenshi: there was once a funny occassion at my uni. I was at the exam, there also were my students, my friend and the other teacher (female). One of the students asked me to look at his code, i came and saw some horror, commented on that and got back to talking with my friend. And then i saw the other teacher looking at me in a very surprised and worried way. And my friend told me: "Paul, have you gone mad, why are you
May 17 20:38:03 <PaulFertser> ... realised my comment on the code was entirely obscene (i thought i whispered it but said aloud in fact).
May 17 20:38:21 <PaulFertser> Hm, too bad he left, otoh i doubt my "stories" worth anything anyway
May 17 20:41:19 <PaulFertser> I hoped my soft worth a bit more but judging by the amount of interest in my latest "achivement"... Screw this, i gotta sleep now, to prepare for another rainy day.
May 17 20:42:45 <gena2x> Paul, here is few people
May 17 20:42:58 <gena2x> Even fewer use emacs
May 17 20:43:03 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i announced it on the community ML
May 17 20:43:41 <gena2x> Even fewer have time/interest/environment to test you work
May 17 20:45:05 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i left work today when i hoped the rain was over, and it wasn't, and another thunderstorm broke out, it was mad cold as i had no proper clothing except for the minimal cycling sportswear, and after i couldn't ride anymore due to cold i had to go with my bicycle via the underground. 
May 17 20:46:42 <PaulFertser> gena2x: and it's not a matter of testing, it's a matter of using. It's sad emacs is out of favour among modern programmers. And most are too conservative (or not caring about learning interesting stuff) to even try to learn it...
May 17 20:46:56 <gena2x> ... So according to what i said before it's strange to expect anything laud about your work. 
May 17 20:48:03 <gena2x> It's in my personal favor. It lack major features for programmers - you know. Like intellisence
May 17 20:48:50 <PaulFertser> And when i researched some wifi driver topics it didn't bring much either: there's still plenty of stupid questions like "mokoconnect doesn't work, are we all going to die?"
May 17 20:48:54 <gena2x> Like code decent browsing (i know about csope)
May 17 20:49:44 <gena2x> Paul, should i remind you reaction I had on my nodebug researh?
May 17 20:50:24 <gena2x> So, resume: just have fun and do whatever you think should be done :)
May 17 20:50:48 <PaulFertser> gena2x: (nodebug) no, it's something i thought of immediately after pressing RET
May 17 20:53:02 <PaulFertser> gena2x: http://cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml
May 17 20:53:13 <gena2x> No-no-no. i know cedet!
May 17 20:53:33 <gena2x> I attemped to use this for several years.
May 17 20:53:55 <gena2x> but alwayes end up with grep and cscope
May 17 20:54:01 <gena2x> :)
May 17 20:55:23 <PaulFertser> ack is a better grep
May 17 20:55:42 <gena2x> ack?
May 17 20:55:52 <PaulFertser> http://betterthangrep.com/
May 17 21:16:00 <gena2x> Don't worth installing :)
May 17 21:16:53 <gena2x> if i really need Search - cscope and only cscope
May 17 22:52:39 <tomboy64> is there a distro by now that supports reliable use of bluetooth headsets?
May 17 22:52:57 <tomboy64> uhm easy reliable use, that is
May 17 23:26:09 <tomboy64> i take that as a no :(
May 17 23:27:13 <slaxxer> well
May 17 23:27:31 <slaxxer> using android or shr?
May 17 23:27:49 <slaxxer> qt?
May 17 23:28:08 <tomboy64> shr
May 17 23:28:22 <slaxxer> i think i heard that qtmoko was working
May 17 23:28:34 <tomboy64> hm interesting
May 17 23:30:19 <tomboy64> do you know whether qtmoko works with navit?
May 17 23:38:38 <slaxxer> works with tango
May 17 23:39:58 <slaxxer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Ajh
May 17 23:40:12 <slaxxer>  maybe u need to slack
May 17 23:41:03 <slaxxer> shr needs to work
May 18 02:12:50 <naquan> Hi, can anyone tell me how much disk space is needed to cross-build SHR from source?
May 18 02:13:12 <SpeedEvil> I would guess around 20G
May 18 02:15:51 <naquan> O.o
May 18 02:18:52 <SpeedEvil> This is based on old builds of OE needind about 12
May 18 02:18:57 <SpeedEvil> it may be a lot better - but...
May 18 02:20:42 <naquan> Thank you
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