**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 18 02:59:57 2010 Sep 18 08:42:46 good morning Sep 18 11:11:15 bye Sep 18 14:12:14 Hmm, how do I open a terminal on a fresh debian install? Sep 18 14:12:24 I forgot which password I set Sep 18 14:13:48 spydon: which window manager are you using? Sep 18 14:14:54 I don't know acctually... Sep 18 14:15:01 It has a slim bar at the top Sep 18 14:17:34 spydon: http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/files.git;a=blob_plain;f=install.sh;hb=HEAD seems to install matchbox-window-manager Sep 18 14:17:48 spydon: the bar at bottom is maybe this "openmoko-panel-plugin"? Sep 18 14:18:47 Yeah, it's probably matchbox Sep 18 14:19:35 spydon: I recommend you read install.sh Sep 18 14:19:48 spydon: there's handleauxshortexternalcommand = exec /usr/bin/matchbox-keyboard Sep 18 14:20:47 Yeah, but how do I open a terminal with the keyboard? Ctrl+alt+t or something? Sep 18 14:22:00 spydon: ctrl-alt-x? Sep 18 14:22:12 worked, thx :) Sep 18 15:34:30 how is android? Sep 18 15:34:57 im looking to buy a new phone, deciding between the N900 and the HTC Desire Sep 18 15:35:30 but i think you guys said android wasnt really that nice last time i asked, so i dont know if the desire should really be considered or not Sep 18 15:38:12 Speaking personally, my only regret about my n900 is that they only put one stylus in the box Sep 18 15:38:20 But that's not a huge limit. :) Sep 18 15:39:02 The stack is comparatively open, though it has various issues, and the hardware is as documented as FR - pretty much - due to a leaked schematic. Sep 18 15:39:07 Almost as. Sep 18 15:44:12 would you recommend it? Sep 18 15:44:17 yes. Sep 18 15:44:23 Absolutely. Sep 18 15:44:41 For example - apt-get install build-essentials 'just works'. Sep 18 15:44:46 (if you setup the right repo) Sep 18 15:44:57 i read that gsm is kind of clunky, since you have to open the calling-app or whatever before you can call and stuff. no complaints? Sep 18 15:46:40 What do you mean by that? Sep 18 15:46:52 i have to say I've used it for maybe 5 calls. Sep 18 15:47:02 oh, you dont use it as a phone? Sep 18 15:47:04 I can't really speak much to that aspect of it. Sep 18 15:47:19 i need something to make calls with Sep 18 15:47:44 there is no hardware 'phone' key. Sep 18 15:48:54 If you're in an app, for example, you can install the camkeyd software - then simply press the key to go to the app-switcher. click out of that to the desktop. Sep 18 15:49:03 then start typing the name of your contact Sep 18 15:49:16 and then just click to call/sms/sip it Sep 18 15:49:28 or you can setup icons on your desktop to click for contacts. Sep 18 15:50:11 There are a number of ways to set it up. Sep 18 15:50:25 would you still recommend it for me though? I want an open phone, particularily because i want python. But it is still going to be used as a phone Sep 18 15:51:00 I have found it easy to use as a phone. Sep 18 15:51:11 I'd recommend asking on #maemo for people who may have used it more. Sep 18 15:51:25 oh ye about that Sep 18 15:51:33 i read that you can use Meego on the n900 if you want to Sep 18 15:51:49 something to consider or Sep 18 15:52:34 meego will take over for maemo wont it, so you should be able to get the new versions when they are out for the n900 and it will all work out just great? Sep 18 15:53:15 Nokia seem to not announce beforehand. Sep 18 15:53:35 It's looking like there will be meego for the n900, but it will not be 'official' on the part of nokia. Sep 18 15:53:51 The n900 is one of the reference platforms for meego though Sep 18 15:54:25 ok Sep 18 15:54:31 isnt the n900 kind of old? Sep 18 15:56:19 how long will it last and stuff? it is still pretty expensive for a year old phone Sep 18 15:56:58 I've had no reliabiltiy issues. Sep 18 15:57:02 And yes. Sep 18 15:57:10 It hasn't come down in price much. Sep 18 15:58:24 but you still think it is my best bet? are there any alternatives? Sep 18 16:05:51 Speaking personally, yes. Sep 18 16:06:02 I haven't seen anything comparatively as open Sep 18 16:08:55 SpeedEvil: except freerunner? Sep 18 16:13:39 yes Sep 18 16:13:43 Recently Sep 18 16:14:02 Its more finished right? Sep 18 16:14:08 maemo Sep 18 16:14:35 Yes. It works with relatively few niggles for most. Sep 18 16:14:36 I dont want to struggle as much as i do with the freerunner, i want a finished phone with the openness of the freerunner Sep 18 16:14:44 xqo: more finished than what? Sep 18 16:14:49 It is - for me - pretty much that. Sep 18 16:15:25 any distro, lindi-. bugs, slugginess and all that Sep 18 16:16:37 There are bugs. However - it's actually stable in my general experience, and the bugs are often user-fixable or workaroundable. Sep 18 16:17:03 xqo: so use maemo on freerunner? ;) Sep 18 16:17:20 no. maemo has binary components from nokia too. Sep 18 16:17:57 xqo: ok so if you want free stuff you don't want maemo Sep 18 16:18:14 (of course it's not that black and white but) Sep 18 16:18:57 It depends. Sep 18 16:19:11 If you're developing applications in python/C/C++/perl/... Sep 18 16:19:16 then it's just fine generally. Sep 18 16:19:33 SpeedEvil: but it contains non-free software Sep 18 16:19:39 yes. Sep 18 16:19:46 So do all phones if you go far enough. Sep 18 16:20:34 SpeedEvil: possibly but that is no reason to increase the number of non-free software if it already can be done without it Sep 18 16:21:05 Sure. Sep 18 16:21:10 http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ Sep 18 16:21:15 If you want to go that far. Sep 18 16:21:18 But ... :) Sep 18 16:21:42 And we don't get what we want. Sep 18 16:21:49 SpeedEvil: that's not legal yet Sep 18 16:22:04 There is the choice of android, iphone, or random linux based stuff, or maemo. Sep 18 16:22:30 All of the others are 'more closed' to normal development than maemo. Sep 18 16:22:42 hard to say Sep 18 16:23:32 You can't port 'normal' GTK/X apps to the others pretty much at all. Sep 18 16:23:40 without rewriting. Sep 18 16:24:07 SpeedEvil: I'm hoping I could just buy some "android" phone and run my own software on it Sep 18 16:24:58 I'm not saying that's bad. Sep 18 16:25:08 just that it's very not 'normal' linux. Sep 18 16:25:48 SpeedEvil: maybe we see this bit differently indeed. I'm buying hardware, not the software stack :) Sep 18 16:25:55 Well... Sep 18 16:25:57 It depends. Sep 18 16:26:17 http://xkcd.com/644/ Sep 18 16:26:20 but of course having linux support for the hardware makes it a lot better for me Sep 18 16:26:38 heh :) Sep 18 16:27:33 Yes, it's nice having in some aspects starting 'clean slate' - but it's a hell of a lot of work. Sep 18 16:27:44 And sometimes having 'good enough' infrastructure is fine. Sep 18 16:28:23 SpeedEvil: maybe Sep 18 16:28:54 so many of these custom distros have born and died recently that I'm really sceptical :) Sep 18 16:29:21 Exactly. Sep 18 16:29:38 I'm not sure if I want to invest time in learning some distro that is used by only one manufacturer Sep 18 16:29:54 meego is at least intel and nokia Sep 18 16:30:01 And there are some others. Sep 18 16:30:10 SpeedEvil: yes but it is very new Sep 18 16:30:20 Sure. Sep 18 16:32:42 hm... should be not really hard to check... Sep 18 16:33:02 whoops Sep 18 16:33:13 wrong channel Sep 18 16:36:27 and of course, there is the goodness in having a platform with maybe half a million (?) deployed units out there. Sep 18 16:36:39 There is a much, much larger dev community out there. Sep 18 16:37:05 Meaning even if nokia entirely drop support - it will be at least somewhat supported by community. Sep 18 16:37:19 There are ongoing efforts to openup the closed parts. Sep 18 16:45:13 hey SpeedEvil, how is the app-selection? Sep 18 16:46:12 http://maemo.org/ Sep 18 16:46:48 I currently have xchat, fbreader as my most used apps Sep 18 16:59:04 wow nice Sep 18 17:00:48 and also anything from the debian-repository or? Sep 18 17:31:21 SpeedEvil: sounds promising: The "Debian Meego Maintainers " intend to package almost everything that comes out of MeeGo (see http://meego.gitorious.org ). Sep 18 18:06:02 yeah Sep 19 01:26:29 I just had an opkg upgrade fail in the middle, and now I get "opkg: symbol lookup error: opkg: undefined symbol: conf" Sep 19 01:26:40 any way to recover? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 19 02:59:56 2010