**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 19 02:59:57 2010 Oct 19 06:57:53 La fin de l'internet ... Oct 19 06:58:02 http://dernierepage.com/ Oct 19 06:58:24 (wrong channel, funny anyway) Oct 19 20:11:17 hello, is there anybody wo writes on SHR manual in openmoko WIKI ? Oct 19 20:11:41 -wo +who Oct 19 20:12:11 <[Rui]> nschle85: hi, what's up? Oct 19 20:13:52 [Rui]: i am also writing on a SHR manual but at the moment i ithink i have some problems with the license in openmoko wiki Oct 19 20:14:04 nschle85: vanous wrote large parts Oct 19 20:14:38 nschle85: alisas Petr Vanek, but he is currently traveling I guess, should be back tomorrow or in few days Oct 19 20:15:25 <[Rui]> what're your problems? Oct 19 20:16:50 [Rui]: i would like to re-use many parts of the WIKI manual but it's license makes me some "brain pain" Oct 19 20:18:31 [Rui]: what iam looking for is somebody who can explain me howto copy parts of the wiki manual without getting in stress with the openmoko wiki license Oct 19 20:19:19 <[Rui]> how about the shr wiki, as you're talking of an shr manual...? Oct 19 20:21:42 [Rui]: i want to create a pdf manual and a html version in offline redistributable form Oct 19 20:22:41 [Rui]: shr is not only openmoko shr is available for N900 and HTC Oct 19 20:23:35 <[Rui]> so? Oct 19 20:24:04 [Rui]: so ! :-) Oct 19 20:25:38 <[Rui]> nschle85: what's the problem with making a (currently only for openmoko) SHR manual? :) Oct 19 20:27:13 nschle85: you forget palmpre :) Oct 19 20:27:47 The openmoko wiki is under GNU Free Documentation License 1.2 If i copy any parts, the manual will be GFDL 1.2 forever ! I think SHR manulal should not be under GFDL 1.2 ! Oct 19 20:28:06 JaMa: sorry :-) Oct 19 20:28:28 <[Rui]> then don't copy any parts. Oct 19 20:29:12 isn't GFDL compatible to CC-BY-SA? Oct 19 20:29:32 no Oct 19 20:30:02 <[Rui]> Heinervdm: the thing is that because some GFDL documents can carry non modifiable parts (invariants) some people put all the cats in one bag. Oct 19 20:30:17 Heinervdm: no, thats the reason why debian project think its un-free Oct 19 20:32:23 [Rui]: my most knowledge is from this manual but not all. Oct 19 20:34:07 mjr: do you know howto solve my problem ? Oct 19 20:35:38 ask all contributors to relicence there work under a different licence Oct 19 20:36:12 <[Rui]> nschle85: the Debian project confuses documents (which can have political messages, which you don't expect to be able to change) with code, on which you really need FaiF freedoms, but went a step further and put all cats in the same bag Oct 19 20:37:56 Heinervdm: thats I understood, reading the license, but howto reach everyone ? and whats the license of choice ? Oct 19 20:38:50 [Rui]: i dont want to put all cats in the same bag, i want to some parts of the cats :-) Oct 19 20:39:02 [Rui]: use Oct 19 20:41:14 <[Rui]> two choices: use it or discard it :) Oct 19 20:42:38 Marko Knöbl, Glenn, Janvlug, Spaetz, HennR, Vanous, Niebert, Md2k7, Bmidgley, Sven1999, Multi, lindi, Case, Zeusone, Daniel Oct 19 20:42:46 Heinervdm: ? Oct 19 20:42:49 that are some people Oct 19 20:43:02 lindi-_: all authors of SHR Manual Oct 19 20:44:13 Heinervdm: lindi-_ ??? dont understand Oct 19 20:44:24 isn't it much easier just to improve existing wiki manual? :) Oct 19 20:45:42 <[Rui]> JaMa: nschle85 doesn't like gfdl 1.2 Oct 19 20:46:21 nschle85: that's a list of all authors of SHR Manual but perhaps you can discard some edits, becaue most of the edits are from 5 people Oct 19 20:46:47 nschle85: "works licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License that include no invariant sections do fully meet the requirements of the Debian Free Software Guidelines." Oct 19 20:47:00 JaMa: yes, but i wanted to create a nice one, redistributable, in PDF (printable), in html (installable on any webserber) and under git version control, generatable for many shr platforms Oct 19 20:47:29 nschle85: I know.. we've talked about it already Oct 19 20:47:38 nschle85: so GFDL is a problem only if you add invariant sections Oct 19 20:48:05 my point is that any PDF or static html (on multiple sites) just gets obsolete sooner than one wiki to rule them all Oct 19 20:48:23 openmoko wiki is really messy Oct 19 20:48:50 * JaMa meant wiki as "format" not directly openmoko wiki Oct 19 20:53:38 lindi-_: thank you for that information, but can i copy parts of it, modify and provide it under a new license ? Oct 19 20:57:13 lindi-_: you are one author of the wiki manual, what kind of license do you prefer ? Oct 19 20:57:57 nschle85: i think it is enough to contact Marko Knöbl, Glenn, Vanous and HennR all other edits are either trivial or unrelevant for your manual Oct 19 20:58:19 the first 3 shouldn't be a big problem Oct 19 20:59:06 Heinervdm: and Hennr ? Oct 19 21:00:00 Those parts are form him: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Manuals%2FSHR&diff=78534&oldid=78446 Oct 19 21:01:11 so you can probably remove those from your manual too Oct 19 21:05:44 Heinervdm: thank you, the changes provided from HennR are either trivial or false (i think). so i ll contact the other authors. Oct 19 21:06:54 nschle85: but i think you should really create a "clean" version of the manual before you copy parts Oct 19 21:08:41 Heinervdm you are in the core team of SHR like JaMa and so others too, did you think about a license ? or should i put it under nschle85 proprietary license until the license model is clear ? Oct 19 21:09:28 nschle85: no i haven't Oct 19 21:10:31 i think you can choose your favorite license, it just needs to be free :) Oct 19 21:11:42 <[Rui]> nschle85: cc-by-sa or gfdl "1.3 or later without invariants" Oct 19 21:13:21 Heinervdm: ok ill check in a clean version. (only build process and chapter skelletons) under a nschle85 license which will be converted to the fitting license) Oct 19 21:13:39 ok Oct 19 21:25:06 lindi-_: are you still onle ? Oct 19 21:25:18 lindi-_: online ? Oct 19 21:36:06 Heinervdm: some days ago i asked JaMa who is "behind SHR", please tell me names of SHR core team. In my licencense ill allow these members (all must have the same oppinion ! to change the license (they can overrule me) ) Oct 19 21:37:19 nschle85: after your question we collected all the names Oct 19 21:37:27 but i don't rember them all Oct 19 21:37:40 but should be in the log Oct 19 21:39:55 Heinervdm: its hard to search all logs :-) Oct 19 21:42:52 Heinervdm: do you remember the day i asked ? Oct 19 21:43:03 nschle85: no Oct 19 21:43:22 Heinervdm: do you remember the week ? Oct 19 21:43:44 last week? Oct 19 21:46:20 Heinervdm: iam usink kvirk do you know where the logs are ? Oct 19 21:54:02 nschle85: can't find it in the logs, i looked one month back Oct 19 21:54:59 Heinervdm: i looked some days back by hand.... did also not find anything Oct 19 21:56:10 Heinervdm: no problem, ill release it under my license and later we change it ! Oct 19 21:56:17 ok Oct 19 22:03:10 nschle85: what license? Oct 19 22:05:25 lindi-_: ups i ll update you... ill write a manual for shr software. i thought you wrote some parts of SHR manual on Openmoko wiki. Is that True ? Oct 19 22:05:37 nschle85: probably something small yes Oct 19 22:07:42 i dont konow which parts you wrote, but the current license of openmoko wiki disturbs me to copy from the manual without changing the license of openmoko shr wiki. Oct 19 22:08:05 nschle85: what license would you like? Oct 19 22:08:38 lindi-_: you are one of the authors, so i ask you Oct 19 22:08:56 nschle85: what's the problem with the current license? Oct 19 22:10:31 nschle85: just check the history of the wiki page, there you see who has written which part, lindi's part was a question about a dfu-util bug ;) Oct 19 22:10:45 lindi-_: its not allowed to put modified parts under a new license. i think its hard to combine differnet document sources under differnt licensenes Oct 19 22:11:02 nschle85: so you'd like some non-copyleft license+ Oct 19 22:11:06 ? Oct 19 22:12:16 lindi-_: i am a german and my english is very bad what is "non-copyleft license+" ? Oct 19 22:12:36 nschle85: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft might help Oct 19 22:15:19 lindi-_: Heinervdm: yes a NON-copyleft license may be the right way. Oct 19 22:16:08 Heinervdm: thank you, but lindi-_: may help me to find a appropiate license Oct 19 22:17:06 nschle85: i think it's hard to get an ok from the authors for a non-copyleft license Oct 19 22:17:30 nschle85: if this is the first time you hear about the word "copyleft" you might want to spend some time studying the issue Oct 19 22:18:06 lindi-_: what may be an issue ? Oct 19 22:18:19 nschle85: the fact that you have not studied it :) Oct 19 22:19:29 lindi-_: but what may happen to me ? Oct 19 22:19:48 <[Rui]> nschle85: less progression on the path to enlightenment (pun intended) :) Oct 19 22:20:38 <[Rui]> nschle85: you'll never be able to combine works from here and there unless they are licensed compatibly. Oct 19 22:20:51 <[Rui]> nschle85: if nothing is said, then they're 100% proprietary Oct 19 22:21:43 <[Rui]> nschle85: if something is said generally, then it's likely incompatible Oct 19 22:22:04 [Rui]: sorry i thought NON copyleft is more free than copyleft Oct 19 22:22:49 <[Rui]> nschle85: I guess that depends on what do you consider free... Oct 19 22:23:03 <[Rui]> nschle85: freedom doesn't mean no rules exist to ensure freedom for all Oct 19 22:23:45 <[Rui]> and, making a parallel, I wouldn't consider slavery abolished in my country if it said only slaves bought "this year" were no longer slaves Oct 19 22:24:40 <[Rui]> (mental note, Portugal was one of the first, if not the first, to abolish slavery) Oct 19 22:25:17 <[Rui]> nschle85: likewise, if you are free to do whatever you want, including reducing the freedom of others, I wouldn't consider that "more free" Oct 19 22:25:48 <[Rui]> nschle85: it mostly boils down to a common confusion between freedom and power Oct 19 22:26:04 <[Rui]> if you can take away freedom from others, then it's power you're talking about. Oct 19 22:27:05 [Rui]: ok, you are confusing me Oct 19 22:27:24 <[Rui]> nschle85: sorry for confusing you, english is not my mother tongue either, how can I help? Oct 19 22:28:53 [Rui]: i would like to derive from work of openmoko shr manual and others with different licenses but i tink, its not possible at the moment Oct 19 22:29:43 <[Rui]> nschle85: it might not be possible for quite many decades beyond the lifetime of either shr or openmoko :) Oct 19 22:30:02 <[Rui]> nschle85: I think you're seriously needing to write your own work 100% from scratch Oct 19 22:30:32 <[Rui]> nschle85: and if that seems like a lot of work, then please consider the work others have had before and respect their wishes :) Oct 19 22:31:02 <[Rui]> nschle85: perhaps then it'll seem less important to change the license than to improve the content. Oct 19 22:32:23 <[Rui]> because for the time being it seems (at least to me) like it's more important for you to reduce the number of GFDL documents than to write a manual Oct 19 22:33:04 <[Rui]> if writing a manual was more important than that,then you'd either work within the existing set of rules (improve current work), or set up your own (work from scratch) Oct 19 22:33:06 [Rui]: i resepect the work of others but what can i do i they said: you have to release it in our wiki ! no pdf ! no html distributable ! and every new knowledge is under our license !! Oct 19 22:33:35 <[Rui]> pdf can be generated from wiki content quite easily and distributable html *suck* Oct 19 22:34:04 <[Rui]> regardless, neither versions are forbidden. GFDL is more about content than form Oct 19 22:34:24 [Rui]: and what is about content distributed under a differnt license ? Oct 19 22:35:06 <[Rui]> nschle85: can you be more concrete? all this abstract talk is worsening my migraine Oct 19 22:36:04 [Rui]: i like the structure Oct 19 22:37:13 <[Rui]> that doesn't stop you from using the current document Oct 19 22:37:15 [Rui]: ok good night, my mother has also migraine and i had it until my 13th.. Oct 19 22:37:52 <[Rui]> nschle85: I'm 34 and keep having them once in a while :) AFAIR since earlier than my 13th year :) Oct 19 22:38:18 [Rui]: i know abou you pain. Oct 19 22:38:24 <[Rui]> nschle85: I doubt there is a copyright for "structure of a document" Oct 19 22:38:40 <[Rui]> I think that would be tantamount to a software idea patent Oct 19 22:39:09 <[Rui]> many manuals written by very different people follow similar structures. Oct 19 22:39:50 [Rui]: please go to bed, ill ask the authors to change the license. Oct 19 22:40:17 <[Rui]> nschle85: anyway, if improving SHR documentation is your goal, then you should really consider improving the current work rather than setting a new work from scratch or bugging people to change a problem-less license. Oct 19 22:41:02 <[Rui]> nschle85: if there really were a licensing problem, then I'm sure you'd have pointed several examples by now, rather than abstract FUD Oct 19 22:41:14 [Rui]: not from scratch, a derived work ! Oct 19 22:41:33 <[Rui]> nschle85: nothing stops you from making a derived work. there's no invariants. Oct 19 22:41:57 <[Rui]> nschle85: only your unwillingness to use GFDL 1.2 :) Oct 19 22:42:15 <[Rui]> (which seems misguided, IMHO) Oct 19 22:43:51 [Rui]: howto GFDL 1.2 and GPL ? Oct 19 22:44:04 [Rui]: combine Oct 19 22:44:29 or GFDL 1.2 or LGPL ? Oct 19 22:45:53 <[Rui]> no problem WRT LGPL Oct 19 22:46:18 <[Rui]> with GPL I'm not sure. but that's still an abstract issue, do you have any example at all that affects the issue at hand? Oct 19 22:47:10 <[Rui]> I'm sure you've ran into significant trouble, eg, big or numerous sections of worthy stuff that couldn't be written from scratch easily in order to be replaced Oct 19 22:57:55 <[Rui]> nschle85: well, good luck and good night. Oct 19 23:00:38 [Rui]: good night, ill fight for openmoko and all its derived work freedeom **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Oct 20 02:59:56 2010