**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 20 02:59:58 2010
Dec 20 03:44:03 <linuxxr> that drop down menu disappearing   is very disappointing
Dec 20 03:44:31 <linuxxr> anybody else having this in shr-u
Dec 20 03:44:54 <linuxxr> does it after reboot
Dec 20 03:51:23 <linuxxr> why not go with the .34.8 kernel an take a little shortcut  since we are going that way to begin with
Dec 20 04:21:11 <linuxxr> any beagle board news?
Dec 20 04:26:14 <linuxxr> yate
Dec 20 12:36:20 <michelem> I can build packages successfully, but when I try to install it with the "Software Packages" app (QPE) I get "Invalid package, contact package supplier"
Dec 20 12:36:50 <michelem> what backend installer should I use to troubleshoot that?
Dec 20 12:37:36 <michelem> it's a normal .qpk package
Dec 20 15:55:32 <michelem> I can't tell if I have a fix from the GPS from command line. Anyone has a tip?
Dec 20 16:37:37 <michelem> ok, connecting to GPSd via TCP and issuing commands seems the way
Dec 20 16:37:49 <michelem> the folks having GPS working: anyone runs gpsd?
Dec 20 16:38:07 <michelem> my problem now is that I get      gpsd: opening read-only GPS data source type 0 and at '/dev/ttySAC1'
Dec 20 16:38:21 <michelem> and (after a list of FAILED) "gpsd: gpsd_activate(): opened GPS (fd 7)"
Dec 20 16:38:36 <michelem> but whatever command I issue to the TCP socket fails
Dec 20 16:54:42 <SpeedEvil> does strace on gpsd indicate it's reading anything from hte gps
Dec 20 17:09:49 <gena2x> michelem: have you powered device on?
Dec 20 17:10:08 <michelem> SpeedEvil: whops, I missed your answer
Dec 20 17:10:13 <michelem> yes, powered on
Dec 20 17:10:24 <michelem> I got reaally strange behavior
Dec 20 17:10:37 <michelem> I tried the command stty -F /dev/ttySAC1 -echo && cat -u /dev/ttySAC1 given on the wiki
Dec 20 17:10:41 <michelem> it did print something
Dec 20 17:10:56 <michelem> (unreadable fuss, periodic)
Dec 20 17:11:14 <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I have little insuight - I have never used the FR GPS
Dec 20 17:11:43 <michelem> with minicom I set the speed of ttySAC1 to 4800, as per NMEA defaults
Dec 20 17:11:51 <michelem> then cat printed something
Dec 20 17:12:01 <michelem> then restarted gpsd, still nothing
Dec 20 17:12:37 <michelem> ok, I gotta go
Dec 20 17:12:45 <SpeedEvil> good luck
Dec 20 18:21:58 <undrwater> gena2x: ping
Dec 20 18:27:31 <gena2x> undrwater: pong
Dec 20 18:28:32 <undrwater> gena2x: i'm looking at your sample environment.in...curious what hardware_ecc=1 does
Dec 20 18:31:18 <gena2x> undrwater: have you read description on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot-gena2x?
Dec 20 18:33:01 <gena2x> undrwater: if it's still unclear after that, i can elaborate
Dec 20 18:33:42 <undrwater> yes...but not sure what hardware ecc support for NAND means...or does :)
Dec 20 18:35:17 <gena2x> undrwater: every block on NAND has 'ECC' -> this is control sum
Dec 20 18:35:39 <gena2x> undrwater: it can be calculated in software or in hardware
Dec 20 18:35:53 <undrwater> error correction, yes?
Dec 20 18:36:04 <gena2x> yeah, check and correct simple errors
Dec 20 18:36:49 <gena2x> as flash speed is close to main mem (!), adding additional operations to calculate ECC can really slow it down (not speaking about CPU and power consumption)
Dec 20 18:37:12 <gena2x> in my test, hw ecc is 8% faster even on zlib-compressed fs read!
Dec 20 18:37:33 <gena2x> our cpu have full hw support for calculating ecc
Dec 20 18:37:37 <gena2x> *has
Dec 20 18:38:00 <undrwater> how much software ecc is happening in typical use on a distro?
Dec 20 18:38:17 <gena2x> so its not really good idea _not_ t use it
Dec 20 18:38:55 <gena2x> didn't understood question, what is meaning of 'happening'? 
Dec 20 18:39:05 <gena2x> in this context
Dec 20 18:39:20 <gena2x> no distro uses hw ecc by default
Dec 20 18:39:30 <gena2x> no distro require any changes to use it
Dec 20 18:39:38 <undrwater> maybe i don't uderstand it well myself..but i'm curious if the distros are doing software ecc
Dec 20 18:39:49 <gena2x> this is all in kernel
Dec 20 18:40:08 <undrwater> in other words...do end users benefit from enabling hardware ecc]
Dec 20 18:40:23 <gena2x> i told, my measurement 8% read speed for free
Dec 20 18:40:38 <gena2x> for worst case
Dec 20 18:41:02 <gena2x> in case of lzo compression of without compression, effect will be much higher
Dec 20 18:41:16 <gena2x> s/of/or/
Dec 20 18:41:17 <apt> gena2x meant: in case or lzo compression of without compression, effect will be much higher
Dec 20 18:41:21 <undrwater> sounds like win-win
Dec 20 18:41:30 <gena2x> it is
Dec 20 18:41:44 <gena2x> only problem - bootloader not support it atm
Dec 20 18:41:55 <gena2x> so you can't just flash rootfs with dfu-util
Dec 20 18:41:57 <undrwater> oh! had to be a catch! :)
Dec 20 18:42:27 <gena2x> you have to boot from sd and use kernel with hardware_ecc=1
Dec 20 18:42:40 <undrwater> ahh
Dec 20 18:42:42 <gena2x> and just copy files manually to mtd
Dec 20 18:42:55 <gena2x> then all as usual
Dec 20 18:42:59 <undrwater> got it
Dec 20 18:43:14 <undrwater> is there an shr kernel with hardware_ecc=1?
Dec 20 18:43:33 <gena2x> but good news - we already have patches from anarsoul for u-boot to use hw ecc
Dec 20 18:43:54 <gena2x> and i already have plans to build, test and publish u-boot with such support
Dec 20 18:43:56 <undrwater> your u-boot uses it, correct?
Dec 20 18:44:04 <gena2x> not atm, just in plans
Dec 20 18:44:04 <undrwater> Ok...so it doesn't yet
Dec 20 18:44:22 <gena2x> but any kernel support hardware_ecc=1
Dec 20 18:44:33 <gena2x> including .29 i think
Dec 20 18:44:44 <undrwater> but when it does, no need to copy from sd
Dec 20 18:44:50 <gena2x> yeah
Dec 20 18:44:56 <undrwater> great work!
Dec 20 18:45:15 <gena2x> this is only matter of flashing in fact (now)
Dec 20 18:46:17 <undrwater> thanks for your time :)
Dec 20 18:49:41 <gena2x> you welcome
Dec 20 23:36:31 <farbinferno> hi there
Dec 21 02:14:56 <valianholt> Hello
Dec 21 02:15:19 <valianholt> please, are there any news yet about new openkmoko phone project?
Dec 21 02:15:33 <valianholt> I heard rumors, they are working on some
Dec 21 02:19:22 <SpeedEvil> valianholt: sorry - no clue.
Dec 21 02:19:40 <SpeedEvil> I haven't followed up - apparanrly there was a project that someones interested in funding.
Dec 21 02:19:54 <valianholt> ok
Dec 21 02:19:56 <SpeedEvil> openmoko - corporate - is not involved
Dec 21 02:20:00 <valianholt> aha
Dec 21 02:20:24 <valianholt> because I am interested in buying android device, as used Maemo 5, seems not supported by Nokia anymore
Dec 21 02:21:02 <valianholt> don't know if to wait for OpenMoko Android device, or Synapse-Phones device (very interesting if you don't know yet) or buy Nexus S
Dec 21 02:21:02 <SpeedEvil> I'm happy with my n900.
Dec 21 02:21:46 <SpeedEvil> Meego is also likely to appear on the n900.
Dec 21 02:22:36 <valianholt> meego is not a full replacement for maemo 5 yet, on n900
Dec 21 02:22:46 <valianholt> and meego device, seems a long time till Nokia releases it
Dec 21 02:23:03 <valianholt> not sure if I trust Nokia anymore, google seems doing great job with android
Dec 21 02:23:05 <SpeedEvil> no, it's not.
Dec 21 02:23:09 <SpeedEvil> Umm...
Dec 21 02:23:28 <SpeedEvil> Android has many problems with openness on many phones. 
Dec 21 02:23:41 <SpeedEvil> In that you need to root them before being able to do random stuff.
Dec 21 02:24:08 <valianholt> I don't need to use many phones, as there is only one Maemo 5 device, I think about android like: there is always only Nexus series for me
Dec 21 02:24:13 <SpeedEvil> And it's very not 'normal' linux
Dec 21 02:24:27 <valianholt> yes it is not
Dec 21 02:24:52 <valianholt> but who cares, I can install cyanogen, busybox etc. and I have very good linux device
Dec 21 02:25:11 <SpeedEvil> I have objections to devices I need to root to get functionality I want.
Dec 21 02:25:14 <valianholt> but a bit sad that I will loose opportunity for NeoPwn2 
Dec 21 02:26:02 <valianholt> I will see
Dec 21 02:26:35 <valianholt> I will wait if Synapse-Phones project releases anything, they plan to release customized android phones, fully rooted out of the box, 3 years international warranty, etc.
Dec 21 02:26:38 <valianholt> German company
Dec 21 02:27:11 <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
Dec 21 02:28:10 <valianholt> if you want to check, http://synapse-phones.com/
Dec 21 02:28:29 <SpeedEvil> I'm not making another decision for a couple of year, as I have a n900 which works. 
Dec 21 02:28:37 <valianholt> they are still in the works, probably we will see first test devices in Q1 2011, if the project will be still alive
Dec 21 02:28:46 <valianholt> because it's risky project
Dec 21 02:28:58 <valianholt> ok
Dec 21 02:29:03 <SpeedEvil> And in that time, android should become more polished, as well as meego arriving in a meaningful manner.
Dec 21 02:29:15 <SpeedEvil> I'm even adding a compass to my n900
Dec 21 02:29:47 <valianholt> how?
Dec 21 02:30:02 <SpeedEvil> solder
Dec 21 02:30:06 <SpeedEvil> and screwdriver
Dec 21 02:30:17 <valianholt> interesting
Dec 21 02:32:16 <valianholt> anyway, I heard another rumors, that first MeeGo device from Nokia, will have bunch of closed source parts
Dec 21 02:32:40 <valianholt> and I definitely want a newer device hardware than N900, dual core phone to buy next year
Dec 21 02:33:03 <valianholt> ARM CPUs are really going better and better
Dec 21 02:33:14 <valianholt> performance, power management
Dec 21 02:34:15 <SpeedEvil> well...
Dec 21 02:34:28 <SpeedEvil> There is essentially no open-source ARM GPU
Dec 21 02:34:52 <SpeedEvil> Also - the modem will always be closed. 
Dec 21 02:35:03 <valianholt> a driver for GPU, who cares
Dec 21 02:35:16 <valianholt> I am more worried about first meego phone UI, etc.
Dec 21 02:35:26 <valianholt> I don't think that Nokia will use current UI
Dec 21 02:35:41 <valianholt> as they said that they are going to use a new user experience UI
Dec 21 02:35:54 <valianholt> which is in the secret works right now
Dec 21 02:36:14 <SpeedEvil> Well - the existing UI is kind of not there AIUI. :)
Dec 21 02:36:51 <valianholt> existing UI looks like coloured android UI
Dec 21 02:37:32 <SpeedEvil> I've not playerd with it
Dec 21 02:38:09 <valianholt> I hope that will change, Hildon is great compared to current MeeGo UI which is terrible according to me
Dec 21 02:38:29 <SpeedEvil> Currently backing up n900 to reflash - having odd issues - may play with meego after
Dec 21 02:38:39 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Dec 21 02:39:30 <valianholt> and I don't like OVI much
Dec 21 02:40:09 <valianholt> even if MeeGo seem to have better potential for me, I use gmaps, greader, gcalendar, gmail, gtalk on my desktop workstation
Dec 21 02:40:20 <valianholt> so there is this reason for android use for me
Dec 21 02:40:35 <valianholt> (everything in google apps on my own domain )
Dec 21 02:41:43 <valianholt> I have used eg. Thunderbird in the past, buy in time, I moved to gmail webclient because it's just great and very usable
Dec 21 02:41:54 <valianholt> buy in time - but in time *
Dec 21 02:42:05 <valianholt> same with greader
Dec 21 02:43:50 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Dec 21 02:44:01 <SpeedEvil> Android marketplace is a powerful draw
Dec 21 02:44:07 <SpeedEvil> Or android apps
Dec 21 02:44:24 <SpeedEvil> I personally want some more open alternative to Ios and Android
Dec 21 02:44:49 <valianholt> ios is not open at all 
Dec 21 02:45:03 <valianholt> (meaning apple ios, not cisco)
Dec 21 02:45:13 <valianholt> android, i would disagree
Dec 21 02:45:31 <SpeedEvil> It is open to the extent that you can develop apps on it, and often sell them.
Dec 21 02:45:40 <SpeedEvil> That is a lot more open than some platforms.
Dec 21 02:45:48 <SpeedEvil> Historically at least.
Dec 21 02:46:07 <valianholt> actually android is fully open
Dec 21 02:46:16 <SpeedEvil> Android is fully open, yes.
Dec 21 02:46:37 <valianholt> you can download complete source codes for whole system and many people do custom roms, as many people do custom linux distros
Dec 21 02:46:40 <SpeedEvil> However, I don't consider a phone which requires rooting to be able to do stuff, as open.
Dec 21 02:46:48 <SpeedEvil> And many android phones do.
Dec 21 02:46:55 <valianholt> well, this is problem of phone itself
Dec 21 02:47:00 <valianholt> not a problem of OS
Dec 21 02:47:36 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Dec 21 02:47:38 <valianholt> and sadly, they is currently no prerooted phone on the market
Dec 21 02:47:47 <valianholt> that will change, I hope
Dec 21 02:47:48 <SpeedEvil> Same with Kindle.
Dec 21 02:47:52 <SpeedEvil> It's rootable.
Dec 21 02:47:56 <SpeedEvil> But...
Dec 21 02:48:33 <SpeedEvil> And I don't really see the difference between a rootable Ios phone, and a rootable android phone.
Dec 21 02:48:41 <valianholt> but this is not a big problem, you wil root the phone, maybe lose warranty, but same you will loose warranty with adding compass to your N900 :)
Dec 21 02:49:09 <SpeedEvil> I don't have a problem so much with the warranty.
Dec 21 02:49:15 <valianholt> no, there is a difference, you can install busybox on android, you will get all needed shell commands
Dec 21 02:49:28 <SpeedEvil> I have a problem that it encourages makers to sell locked-down phones.
Dec 21 02:49:32 <valianholt> you can use perl scripts, python
Dec 21 02:49:38 <SpeedEvil> And sooner or later, they will get non-rootable.
Dec 21 02:49:43 <valianholt> new android will use ext4 by default
Dec 21 02:50:30 <valianholt> yes but as well there are others which would like to make prerooted phones, with unlocked bootloader, matter of time till that time comes
Dec 21 02:52:22 <valianholt> and about the not having X.org on android, etc.. I see it as advantage, X.org is very robust for a phone and not having portability because of Android Java in Dalvik, compared to GTK Maemo or QT MeeGo, who cares? no one will use desktop app on phone and vice versa
Dec 21 02:53:30 <valianholt> is synapse-phones project will be successfull and they will really release prerooted phones with unlocked bootloader, android will became truly open device, with no disadvantage against openess of MeeGo / Maemo
Dec 21 02:55:55 <valianholt> we are lucky because of N900, but I am not sure if next Nokia device will be same open as N900 is
Dec 21 02:56:49 <valianholt> gn all :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 21 02:59:58 2010