**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 21 02:59:56 2011
Jun 21 08:32:49 <Wonka> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9-00/ *want*
Jun 21 08:51:52 <Kamping_Kaiser> 19 days standby? wow
Jun 21 08:53:01 <pabs3> ?
Jun 21 08:53:18 <Wonka> 10:30:49 < Wonka> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9-00/ *want*
Jun 21 08:53:25 <Wonka> that's the context :)
Jun 21 08:54:41 <pabs3> ah, yep, #maemo and #meego have been buzzing
Jun 21 10:40:33 <vilpan> Wonka: what interests me most in linux-based phones is whether you get the freedom you have with most linux distros, that is access to a huge package repository via a package manager, which basically means unlimited choices for free software. Or is it the standard Nokia way, which lately, becomes more and more like the Apple way: a centralized store, buy commercial apps, lengthy EULAs, etc.
Jun 21 10:40:33 <vilpan> Do you have any informative sources on how this aspect looks on MeeGO? :)
Jun 21 10:41:11 <Wonka> not at all
Jun 21 10:41:25 <Wonka> but wasn't meego supposed to be a debian derivative?
Jun 21 10:43:45 <vilpan> Wonka: iirc, maemo was, meego should be based on something else, don't recall exactly
Jun 21 10:48:54 <Kamping_Kaiser> iirc (from my reading of pres releases at the time), meego was meant to be a merger of maemo and intels mobile platform (moblin? something else?)
Jun 21 11:28:01 <vilpan> Kamping_Kaiser: correct, according to wikipedia. :) Thought, I recall some comments from unhappy maemo devs that the result of the merger was becoming too much Fedora and they were unhappy with shift from Debian. Don't have any practical experience with any of the devices, though, so can't tell how it feels for sure :)
Jun 21 11:29:30 <pabs3> the N9/Harmattan stuff seems to use debs: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/z/zlib/
Jun 21 11:29:45 <pabs3> but I guess the UI software is all MeeGo stuff
Jun 21 11:30:20 <Sazius> as far as I understand N9 will be MeeGo + Nokias proprietary UI, you can install a Terminal app and add any repositories and install what you want there...
Jun 21 11:30:23 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs3: interesting... i'm sure rpm was meant to be meegos base (as it was for moblin, and the reason i stopped wathing them)
Jun 21 11:30:54 <Kamping_Kaiser> vilpan: the switch to meego/rpm (which i thought was happening....) was one of the two main reasons i didn't end up with an n900
Jun 21 11:31:17 <Sazius> some info about that: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=22819#post22819
Jun 21 11:31:31 <Kamping_Kaiser> Sazius: ta
Jun 21 11:32:00 <vilpan> Kamping_Kaiser: I thought, n900 was still maemo, that is still Debian with apt-get goodness :/
Jun 21 11:32:36 <Kamping_Kaiser> vilpan: dunno what the current ones ship with - i stopped payiing attention :/
Jun 21 11:34:16 <pabs3> yeah, N900 was Maemo 5
Jun 21 11:34:45 <pabs3> N9 is this MeeGo 1.2/Harmattan/Maemo 6 thing
Jun 21 11:35:14 <pabs3> with lotsa non-free bits: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/
Jun 21 11:35:47 <Kamping_Kaiser> wonder if it still needs proprietary software to charge
Jun 21 11:36:32 <pabs3> seems so: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/b/bme/
Jun 21 11:36:49 <Sazius> this blog post claims that the MeeGo Community Edition guys will start to work on the N9: http://flors.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/nokia-n9-state-of-the-art-of-mobile-linux-and-qt/
Jun 21 11:37:20 <Kamping_Kaiser> disappointing
Jun 21 11:37:33 <Sazius> that it is "real" MeeGo without Nokias proprietary UI, don't know about drivers and firmwares though
Jun 21 11:37:36 <Kamping_Kaiser> hopefully one day they come to their senses
Jun 21 11:37:55 <pabs3> Kamping_Kaiser: in any case the PowerVR drivers are going to be non-free
Jun 21 11:38:39 * pabs3 wonders if glamo 3D ever got worked on
Jun 21 11:39:21 <Kamping_Kaiser> mmm
Jun 21 11:43:14 <Sazius> why is something like libvorbisidec in non-free in harmattan repo? it's in main in Debian...
Jun 21 11:43:36 <vilpan> so what about openmoko? Is suitable for actual every day use by casual users? Or will it ever be? Because openmoko is the closest match to the concept of a "free phone" as I see it
Jun 21 11:43:52 <Sazius> and libjpeg, etc...
Jun 21 11:49:02 <Kamping_Kaiser> hm, Sazius 's link suggests meego is rpm, and just harmattan is debs
Jun 21 11:49:19 <Sazius> yes, this is my impression as well
Jun 21 11:49:36 <Sazius> Nokia got some kind of special permission to still call it "MeeGo" :)
Jun 21 11:51:06 <pabs3> Sazius: maybe they added some patented stuff? or maybe its a dumb mistake
Jun 21 11:52:14 <Sazius> well patented stuff isn't non-free in copyright-sense :)
Jun 21 11:54:09 <Sazius> but yeah strange, but anyway the whole UI that is shipped with N9 and associated code is entirely proprietary
Jun 21 15:23:14 <DocScrutinizer> hah, you already spotted N9
Jun 21 15:26:38 <DocScrutinizer> Kamping_Kaiser: N9 is still using bme for charging
Jun 21 15:27:01 <DocScrutinizer> aah, pabs3 answered that
Jun 21 15:29:29 <DocScrutinizer> Kamping_Kaiser: N9 has a chimera called meego-harmattan that's actually mostly maemo still, and unrelated to the work of #meego-arm group
Jun 21 15:29:55 <DocScrutinizer> meego is RPM, meego-harmattan probably deb
Jun 21 15:30:58 <DocScrutinizer> pabs3: (vorbis) probably directly exploits DSP to playback audio
Jun 21 15:38:13 <Sazius> DocScrutinizer: in my understanding harmattan has MeeGo API, so you can make applications for MeeGo in general and should work on N9 as well
Jun 21 15:38:30 <Sazius> in Qt I suppose
Jun 21 15:38:36 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Jun 21 15:39:22 <DocScrutinizer> you allegedly can code trans-platform for this but-ugly UI
Jun 21 16:14:08 <pabs3> DocScrutinizer: what about libjpeg? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/libj/libjpeg6b/
Jun 21 16:36:22 <DocScrutinizer> no idea really
Jun 21 16:36:31 <DocScrutinizer> is this a blob?
Jun 21 16:37:16 <DocScrutinizer> wasn't jpeg tainted by patents?
Jun 21 16:37:27 <pabs3> seems to be, there doesn't look to be any sources there
Jun 21 16:37:40 <pabs3> recently? wouldn't have thought so
Jun 21 16:37:59 <DocScrutinizer> isn't that patent issue the reason why linux desktops went png for icons?
Jun 21 16:38:53 <pabs3> maybe you are thinking of gif?
Jun 21 16:39:07 <pabs3> but yeah, there seem to be some patent rumblings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Patent_issues
Jun 21 16:39:24 <pabs3> never heard of them being a concern though
Jun 21 16:47:17 <Sazius> libjpeg is in main e.g. i Debian, and they are pretty strict with such issues
Jun 21 16:47:36 <Sazius> i.e. not in non-free
Jun 21 16:47:42 <pabs3> yeah, but not in harmattan it seems
Jun 21 16:47:55 <Sazius> yeah, which is strange
Jun 21 16:48:00 <Sazius> perhaps a mistake?
Jun 21 16:48:32 <pabs3> perhaps. maybe it passes off to hardware decoding like DocScrutinizer suggested for the vorbis lib
Jun 21 16:49:34 <Sazius> that sounds like a likely explanation
Jun 21 16:57:06 <DocScrutinizer> perhaps another hw optimization?
Jun 21 16:57:48 <DocScrutinizer> anyway I wonder how they avoided GPL violations then 
Jun 21 16:58:06 <DocScrutinizer> pabs3: exactly
Jun 21 17:10:25 <Sazius> it seems that both libjpeg and libvorbis are BSD-type licenses, not GPL (from very quick cursory web search)
Jun 21 23:25:57 <Kamping_Kaiser> DocScrutinizer: thanks for the added background :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 22 02:59:57 2011