**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 11 02:59:59 2015
Jun 11 12:05:00 <safilmer> Hi all, I am interested in the GTA04A5 motherboard, but would like to know the status of baseband firmware isolation
Jun 11 12:05:25 <safilmer> I see also the Neo900 project has a lot of focus on that, and it is an important feature for me.
Jun 11 12:06:09 <safilmer> Otherwise, is there a web page with a list of which components in GTA04 (including the new GTA04A5) require non-libre blobs, such as Wifi or GPU or GPS?
Jun 11 12:24:07 <PaulFertser> safilmer: I do not have a direct answer but please keep in mind that a blob that runs on peripheral hardware is not nearly the same as a blob that runs on your application processor.
Jun 11 12:24:26 <PaulFertser> safilmer: e.g. do you know how many blobs are there used by gta02?
Jun 11 12:24:39 <safilmer> PaulFertser: I am aware of the difference.  It seems as if 3D acceleration and WLAN both require blobs on the system processor
Jun 11 12:25:02 <safilmer> PaulFertser: I do not, but I imagine both 3D and WLAN require blobs.
Jun 11 12:25:29 <safilmer> (I am ignoring the GSM subsystems because it has it's own firmware running on it's own processor that obviously is non-libre)
Jun 11 12:28:10 <PaulFertser> safilmer: regarding gta02, wrong on both points, no blobs needed on application processor for 3d and wlan.
Jun 11 12:29:18 <safilmer> PaulFertser: So then the GTA02 is preferable from a software freedom standpoint?
Jun 11 12:29:24 <safilmer> Hrmm, I was not aware.
Jun 11 12:29:35 <PaulFertser> safilmer: why do you think gta04 needs any blobs on application processor at all?
Jun 11 12:31:20 <safilmer> PaulFertser: In this http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FAQ/ page in the section Firmware
Jun 11 12:31:49 <safilmer> It seems liks the GTA02 is also supported by the http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ project for libre GSM firmware which I also did not know!
Jun 11 12:33:06 <safilmer> Hmm, the GTA02 seems like the preferable device... I thought it would be good to support Golden Delicious by ordering a GTA04A5, but maybe I should stick with GTA02
Jun 11 12:38:56 <safilmer> PaulFertser: Which do you own?
Jun 11 12:40:28 <PaulFertser> safilmer: I own both gta02 and gta04 but use gta02.
Jun 11 12:41:59 <safilmer> PaulFertser: Do you use osmocomBB on the GTA02?  And why do you not use the GTA04?
Jun 11 12:44:04 <PaulFertser> safilmer: osmocomBB is unusable for day-to-day usage, and that's my only cellphone.
Jun 11 12:44:10 <PaulFertser> safilmer: gta04 has higher power consumption.
Jun 11 12:45:54 <safilmer> Which distro do you run on the GTA02?  And how long does the battery life last for?
Jun 11 12:46:16 <PaulFertser> safilmer: I run plain Debian, but my setup is quite unusual. I'd recommend qtmoko.
Jun 11 12:46:56 <PaulFertser> safilmer: gta02 is confirmed to be able to sleep (suspend-to-ram) for 140 hours with gsm on with a fresh battery.
Jun 11 12:48:52 <safilmer> Fresh battery meaning fully charged?
Jun 11 12:49:04 <PaulFertser> safilmer: and new enough
Jun 11 12:49:56 <safilmer> That is quite impressive.  I will surely install Qtmoko on a GTA02 and try it out!
Jun 11 12:50:51 <PaulFertser> safilmer: that's with #1024 fix applied and "deep sleep" mode enabled, without it, it's about half time.
Jun 11 12:50:54 <taruti> for daily use I didn't like the touchscreen of gta02
Jun 11 12:51:15 <PaulFertser> Who did?
Jun 11 12:51:39 <safilmer> Doesn't the GTA04 use the same touchscreen?
Jun 11 12:52:08 <PaulFertser> It does.
Jun 11 12:52:38 <safilmer> Hmm, it seems like Qtmoko development has stalled 1,5 years ago
Jun 11 12:54:46 <PaulFertser> It was
Jun 11 12:56:18 <PaulFertser> It has rather. Well, people are not enthusiastic enough to run free software on their cellphones apparently.
Jun 11 13:07:42 <safilmer> PaulFertser: Then my last, or most important question has to do with the baseband firmware.  The reason that I *was* excited about the Neo900 project was the emphasis on baseband isolation, but that device will require blobs for WLAN and 3D for sure (and cost over 900 EUR)
Jun 11 13:08:25 <PaulFertser> safilmer: are you sure about wlan blob?
Jun 11 13:08:32 <PaulFertser> safilmer: where is it written?
Jun 11 13:08:35 <PaulFertser> safilmer: i really doubt it.
Jun 11 13:09:00 <PaulFertser> safilmer: also, both gta02 and gta04 have isolated baseband in a sense that it's running on its own CPU and not sharing any memory.
Jun 11 13:09:20 <PaulFertser> neo900 has some additional isolation means but that's probably over-paranoid.
Jun 11 13:09:37 <safilmer> PaulFertser: So the Neo900 would not have anything additional to offer in the way that GTA02 has?
Jun 11 13:09:48 <safilmer> I will look for the Neo900 WLAN blob link, one moment.
Jun 11 13:10:00 <PaulFertser> safilmer: gta02 lacks hw keyboard, lacks decent processor lacks RAM etc etc.
Jun 11 13:10:55 <safilmer> I know that, I was asking specifically about baseband firmware isolation
Jun 11 13:11:08 <safilmer> As in, specifically what extra does the Neo900 do?
Jun 11 13:11:39 <safilmer> And if one really cared about software freedom (and not price), should one invest in the GTA04A5 or the Neo900 or neither
Jun 11 13:12:33 <PaulFertser> neo900 is a really cool open hardware/free software project.
Jun 11 13:12:52 <safilmer> PaulFertser: http://neo900.org/faq#peripherals
Jun 11 13:13:05 <PaulFertser> safilmer: what exactly there?
Jun 11 13:13:37 <safilmer> The WiFi chipset (WL1273L) will require a binary-only firmware file to be loaded. 
Jun 11 13:14:04 <PaulFertser> safilmer: _firmware_ means code running on an isolated processor, not on your application processor.
Jun 11 13:14:20 <PaulFertser> Loaded as in bytes transferred.
Jun 11 13:15:13 <safilmer> Yes I know, but why not choose a WLAN chip that does not require non-libre firmware?
Jun 11 13:15:14 <PaulFertser> safilmer: do you have a monitor on your desk? It's running such a blob too. And your hard disk drive. And your usb mass storage-compliant flash memory stick. And even an SD card.
Jun 11 13:15:35 <PaulFertser> safilmer: do you know of any modern wifi chip that's running libre firmware?
Jun 11 13:15:47 <PaulFertser> There's none.
Jun 11 13:16:08 <safilmer> PaulFertser: Anything using the ath5k or ath9k driver?  aka pretty much any Atheros 802.11g or 802.11n chipsets?
Jun 11 13:16:24 <safilmer> Also Realtek chipsets that use the rtl8187 driver 
Jun 11 13:16:41 <safilmer> Or what about what is inside the GTA02?
Jun 11 13:16:44 <PaulFertser> safilmer: desktop stuff, completely different. Also, they might be running some microcode without you knowing anything about it.
Jun 11 13:17:20 <PaulFertser> safilmer: gta02 has ar6000 shit, it's running a blob too, stored on its own ROM. 
Jun 11 13:17:46 <PaulFertser> And how do you tell rtl8187 devices do not have any firmware?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 12 02:59:58 2015