**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Apr 08 03:00:02 2017 Apr 08 06:09:54 anyone here ? Apr 08 06:10:39 so openmoko was created even before android or iphone ? in essence it was linux on phone ? why it didn't ganed such popularity as android or iphone ? Apr 08 06:11:05 ~logs Apr 08 06:11:05 All conversations are logged to http://apt.rikers.org/%23openmoko/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily --- livelogs are on http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt Apr 08 07:02:10 thereyougo: hi Apr 08 07:02:43 thereyougo: well, I'd say that it had plenty of shortcomings in comparison, that's why Apr 08 07:04:01 thereyougo: it wasn't that much appealing even to geek/hacker audience, so the general community was impossible to get interested in this project Apr 08 07:04:58 thereyougo: Nokia's n900 was much less free and yet it had way more success Apr 08 09:31:27 and yet, the irony is, now, this is what many people do with iphone and android they rooting it they install native unix software on it, they actually trying to make it into a what openmoko tryed to be initially, right ? Apr 08 09:31:57 its like, they didn't wanted "freedom" initially now they have to fight for it ? Apr 08 09:32:26 thereyougo: that's not the same level of freedom. You can install unix tools in chroot on any android even without root permissions. Apr 08 09:34:04 or maybe I biased by this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGmtP5Lg_t0 Apr 08 09:34:05 "Embedded Linux Conference 2013 - Toybox - Writing a New Command Line From Scratch" Apr 08 09:34:10 just watch first 10 minutes where author tells about "why" toybox Apr 08 09:35:13 in short, he says android is not vanilla linux and all base tools in android very stripped down to not give too much freedom for exploitation and make it more secure Apr 08 10:40:59 chroot without root permissions? Apr 08 10:49:49 the (android security) approach is flawed in my book, or the explanation is. A unix system with a good root password been relatively safe from threats for like 50 years now Apr 08 10:50:32 you don't need to strip down tools, you need to secure them Apr 08 10:50:44 that's what permissions are meant for Apr 08 10:52:27 in real life, with totally 'illiterate' users, the situation is slightly more complex but still basically boils down to exactly that. What android does isn't reduce attack surface, it is "create a secure environment for third party apps", aka DRM Apr 08 10:54:24 it's just *they* don't want _you_ to do whatever you like on your device. And that's exactly why users search for ways to get past this limitations since they actually want to do stuff they 'are not supposed to be able to do' Apr 08 10:55:05 ~trust Apr 08 10:55:05 somebody said trust was safe, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg Apr 08 11:01:06 PaulFertser: the N900 isn't THAT MUCH less free than openmoko Apr 08 11:02:01 actually the only thing you can't replace by your own stuff is the MLO bootloader, isnce it's a HS device Apr 08 11:02:51 the rest is, well they ship some closed source apps with the device, but you're free to not use them and install and use your own alternative instead Apr 08 11:04:36 PaulFertser: you might be interested in recent development of completely FOSS maemo based on devuan Apr 08 11:10:45 the N9 with meego HARMattan aka maemo6 was a TCPA crap device, thanks to aegis activating and putting to purpose the MLO based TrustZone/M-Shield crap. N900 had same hardware but it never got activated Apr 08 11:13:34 ~aegis Apr 08 11:13:34 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif Apr 08 11:14:15 ~harambe Apr 08 11:15:04 ~harmattan Apr 08 11:15:04 rumour has it, harmattan is teh suck Apr 08 11:18:12 DocScrutinizer05: well, n900 gained traction without free drivers for most of the important hardware. My point is that the level of freedom OM could offer wasn't an important part for the larger audience, even for programmers/enthusiasts. Apr 08 11:18:36 the drivers all been always free Apr 08 11:18:49 All modem stuff was closed Apr 08 11:19:05 And the shitty bmc or whatever it was called. Apr 08 11:19:05 otherwise Nokia had violated GPL Apr 08 11:19:34 Free kernel drivers weren't that much important, yes, they just outsourced plenty of real work to closed-source userspace. Apr 08 11:19:49 BME is a userland daemon to tickle the watchdog of the charger chip Apr 08 11:20:53 I replaced it by a shellscript 5liner pretty soon after N900 got available Apr 08 11:21:12 I do not remember the details but even at the moment we were working on hostmode-easy-now (so, 2 years or so after release) I wasn't able to use it as my phone because of the proprietary userspace components. Apr 08 11:21:36 Nokia didn't open this one up since they were afraid of getting sued for exploding batteries Apr 08 11:22:20 If it was only a matter of running your shell script I wouldn't mind. Apr 08 11:23:32 there's a lot of other stuff not FOSS, that's true. But installing and running a plain linux like debian wasn't a big thing, except for the phone functionality Apr 08 11:25:02 they documented the ISI protocol in some not exactly public but available specs, but they didn't open up the source of their drivers for that abomination Apr 08 11:26:17 yet freesmartphone.org and ofono were able to implement the ISI protocol Apr 08 11:27:08 pathetic or non-existing Board Support Package != non-open Apr 08 11:29:46 btw meanwhile as far as I know all the mandatory stuff is mainlined Apr 08 11:30:47 for BME Pali Rohar made a kernel driver according to my specs Apr 08 11:32:07 the problem back when, at 'your' time, was that HAL didn't talk to my script, so the battery gauge and thus the system shutdown at low battery didn't work Apr 08 11:32:45 Pali fixed that too Apr 08 11:37:05 >>My point is that the level of freedom OM could offer wasn't an important part for the larger audience<< so far I agree Apr 08 11:39:16 for devels it always been an issue for N900 that Nokia had that closed stuff in maemo. Just because the devels seen the potential and general maturity of maemo and were fully aware of the pending problems from the closed parts Apr 08 11:40:22 #maemo 155 users, #harmattan 49 users Apr 08 11:40:25 ;-) Apr 08 11:44:37 Is there currently a free software stack that provides stable and reliable voice, SMS and GPRS functionality? Apr 08 11:46:45 it's maybe very similar to systemd situation. Imagine systemd wasn't FOSS (which arguably it actually isn't really). There exist alternatives for all of the functionality it seized, but it's basically another system when you rip out systemd and all the stuff that depends on it. See https://devuan.org/os/packages/list/forked-from-debian - same with modem in maemo, when you replace it by e.g ofono, you need a new dialer which also is Apr 08 11:46:47 closed. No big thing to write a new dialer. But then you need one that interfaces with addressbook aka contacts if you want a decent one. And so on Apr 08 11:47:33 I think SHR did, at times Apr 08 11:48:03 (provide voice etc) Apr 08 11:48:11 SHR can't talk to ofono, and FSO never fully supported n900's modem iirc. Apr 08 11:48:23 I think it does Apr 08 11:49:19 actually Mickey 'stole' the code from ofono iirc Apr 08 11:49:42 There was also PA involved Apr 08 11:50:55 yes, cmtspeech Apr 08 11:52:39 https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?q=cmtspeech Apr 08 11:54:26 the rest are some audio enhancement libs Nokia developed. They don't do key magic, just improve audio quality which is a highly relevant know how asset for Nokia, so they didn't open those up Apr 08 11:55:05 you can get do without them anyway Apr 08 11:55:31 meego demonstrated that on N900 iirc Apr 08 11:55:52 Audio quality with calypso remained an issue unfortunately. Apr 08 11:55:58 indeed Apr 08 11:56:28 So TI, being super-pro with DSP apparently couldn't implement enough "magic" in their firmware. Apr 08 11:56:30 it wasn't calypso but our pathetic EMI design Apr 08 11:57:03 Hm, how so? I thought the main issue was echo that resulted from acoustic coupling. Apr 08 11:57:21 (main issue after the "capacitor fix" of course) Apr 08 11:57:22 together with por knowledge how to set the right parameters for the calypso DSP Apr 08 11:57:37 poor* Apr 08 11:58:10 yes, that was pathetic ME and acoustic design Apr 08 11:58:24 I thought Dieter knew enough about all the settings. Apr 08 11:58:33 not of the DSP Apr 08 11:59:10 he was only ever involved in the radio stack and AT interpreter Apr 08 11:59:10 btw, even not securing those two screws that held the case together was resulting in reducing echo considerably. Apr 08 11:59:25 HAHA nice Apr 08 11:59:27 But then there was tnt's work. Apr 08 11:59:51 Who fully dumped the DSP firmware and disassembled and modded it iirc. Apr 08 12:00:11 boooh never heard of that. awesome Apr 08 12:00:52 I actually don't even know of an assembler for that DSP crap Apr 08 12:01:00 http://people.osmocom.org/tnt/talks/phdays2012-abusing-calypso-phones.pdf Apr 08 12:03:06 umm, is that the radio DSP? or the audio DSP? Apr 08 12:04:51 Does it have several? Apr 08 12:07:35 I'd think so Apr 08 12:08:12 or they use same DSP for both radio signal processing and audio signal processing Apr 08 12:08:57 anyway the DSP as shown in there in the block diagrams is in a slightly incorrect position for audio processing Apr 08 12:11:44 well. maybe not, the ARM samples audio via a (not shown) ADC from analog audio in, then it m,ay have it processed by DSP, then process it by ARM itself for whatever needed (mute, whatnot else, building packets for GSM 20ms slots) then send the data packets to DSP again to convert them to the data needed to control the radio frontend Apr 08 12:35:33 or they do it in ARM even Apr 08 12:35:40 like on N900 ;-D Apr 08 12:36:36 looking at it from this PoV, it seems to me N900 is even slightly more open than GTA02 ;-) Apr 08 12:38:28 on N900 maemo the DSP audio processing for echo cancelation etc is done by PA plugins, and the 20ms packeting and serialization is done by the cmtspeech stuff Apr 08 12:39:26 the latter is a big PITA btw, since you need to obey modem as master for the audio sampling rate and packet delivery Apr 08 12:40:14 and that's been the big problem with many implementations for modem audio Apr 08 12:41:29 I don't know why, after all it's not any different to what you need to do for e.g. SIP RTP audio Apr 08 12:47:51 when your local audiocard ADC clock (or, for SIP RTP, the inbound packet rate) develops a skew from a slightly off pace on either end, you need to drop or duplicate a packet to reduce the skew to allowable limit. This linit is _not_ 20ms like suggested in that whitepaper by a Nokia employee, you could as well allow a max of 50ms skew which enables using 3 20ms buffer segments Apr 08 12:48:15 while that Nokia guy uses 4 5ms segments Apr 08 12:49:41 actually you could even drop or duplicate single frames aka samples to shift the write or read position gradually **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 09 03:00:01 2017