**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 19 03:00:01 2017
Dec 19 13:21:44 <Johnny_> Hello. We have an open source project and want to apply for USB VID/PID. We use generated code under the following license. Is this ok: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/legal/legal_agreement/license_agreement/de/fc/f7/32/a0/8b/4f/db/ultimate-liberty-v2.txt/files/ultimate-liberty-v2.txt/jcr:content/translations/en.ultimate-liberty-v2.txt
Dec 19 13:33:00 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: on non-free hardware?
Dec 19 13:33:52 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: I think the 4th clause clearly makes the software non-fre.
Dec 19 13:34:56 <Johnny_> The USB device hardware itself is bought from ebay. Do you know the "Blue Pill" board?
Dec 19 13:36:07 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: yeah, I do :)
Dec 19 13:36:28 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: are you using cubemx to make code for it?
Dec 19 13:36:38 <Johnny_> The project is generated with STM32CubeMX, our extensions are GPL.
Dec 19 13:37:10 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: I'm not a lawyer but I have doubts you can really consider the resulting work to be free software.
Dec 19 13:37:58 <PaulFertser> btw, have you considered using stm32plus or libopencm3 or https://japaric.github.io/blue-pill/blue_pill/ instead?
Dec 19 13:38:46 <Johnny_> No, I did not yet know these.
Dec 19 13:39:46 <PaulFertser> My personal understanding is that using old ST periph libraries or newer HAL/cubemx etc. make resulting firmware non-free because it can't be legally used on other microcontrollers.
Dec 19 13:40:05 <PaulFertser> So it seems your project is neither free hardware nor free software at the moment, unfortunately.
Dec 19 13:42:40 <Johnny_> The conditions on openmoko wiki states e.g. "the firmware/software running on your USB device is Free / Open Source software..."
Dec 19 13:42:48 <Johnny_> I read this as Free -or- Open Source software. Not Free -and- Open Source software. Am I wrong?
Dec 19 13:42:58 <PaulFertser> Your understanding is correct.
Dec 19 13:43:16 <PaulFertser> btw, pid.codes require both
Dec 19 13:44:14 <Johnny_> openmoko wiki: "By applying for an Openmoko Product ID, you acknowledge that either ..."
Dec 19 13:44:21 <Johnny_> "..either.."
Dec 19 13:44:43 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: yes, your understanding is correct, free software firmware is enough
Dec 19 13:45:07 <Johnny_> You mean Free -or- Open Source software.
Dec 19 13:45:53 <PaulFertser> I mean Free software or Free hardware.
Dec 19 13:46:04 <PaulFertser> I personally do not use the term "open source".
Dec 19 13:46:12 <PaulFertser> I think it's too confusing to be useful.
Dec 19 13:46:31 <Johnny_> Ok. But openmoko wiki uses "open source software".
Dec 19 13:46:36 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: oh, I understand what you are getting at.
Dec 19 13:46:56 <Johnny_> Our project is "open source software".
Dec 19 13:47:36 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Initiative and they coined the term and the wiki page uses this term according to their definition. 
Dec 19 13:47:38 <Johnny_> ...there is also an extra hardware device attached to the Blue Pill.
Dec 19 13:48:28 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: so, is your software fitting https://opensource.org/osd ? 
Dec 19 13:51:27 <Johnny_> You mean the problem could be "6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor" ?
Dec 19 13:51:48 <PaulFertser> And 8 and 10
Dec 19 13:52:26 <Johnny_> .. of course
Dec 19 13:53:34 <PaulFertser> So you see how "open source" is confusing. On first glance, it seems to mean one thing, but then once you start reading the OSI website it becomes way more strict.
Dec 19 13:55:56 <Johnny_> That only says that it might be not "OSI-Approved". There are "FSF-Recognized or DFSG-Approved Free / Open Source software license" possibilities as well. Do you know if they essentially say the same? Or do you have their URLs?
Dec 19 13:57:57 <PaulFertser> https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses
Dec 19 13:58:24 <PaulFertser> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
Dec 19 14:01:29 <Johnny_> ... DFSG: 8. License must not be specific to a product.
Dec 19 14:06:12 <Johnny_> ... fsf.org: "The Free Software Definition" - "The freedom to run the program as you wish"
Dec 19 14:06:31 <Johnny_> ...
Dec 19 14:09:24 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: you might want to port your code to a better library. The one provided by ST is of really low quality anyway.
Dec 19 14:10:52 <Johnny_> That may be true. But I would say the code provided by ST is good/pro quality.
Dec 19 14:13:32 <Johnny_> The openmoko wiki states another possibility: open hardware project. We have a little extra hardware connected to the Blue Pill. "Eagle" schematics are provided.
Dec 19 14:14:02 <PaulFertser> But firmware is running on the non-free part, this is problematic.
Dec 19 14:15:05 <PaulFertser> Probably the others will decide that your project is ok for the conditions given, not sure.
Dec 19 14:15:33 <Johnny_> Could it be "Open Source Hardware" connected to a Blue Pill running the ST libraries? And the USB VID/PID is requested for the Blue Pill?
Dec 19 14:16:01 <PaulFertser> I think this one is for the Harald himself to judge.
Dec 19 14:16:17 <Johnny_> "By applying for an Openmoko Product ID, you acknowledge that either ..."
Dec 19 14:16:43 <Johnny_> May I ask how I can contact Harald?
Dec 19 14:18:02 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: http://laforge.gnumonks.org/contact/ I think you can write an email to the usb-id mailing list and mention all the important details there and Cc Harald there. 
Dec 19 14:20:32 <Johnny_> Harald is behind the openmoko project? He decides if the USB VID/PID is provided?
Dec 19 14:23:50 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20120521-open_registry_for_usb_and_mac_addrs/
Dec 19 14:24:07 <Johnny_> Thank you.
Dec 19 14:24:24 <PaulFertser> Johnny_: good luck with your project!
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