**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 19 23:59:56 2005 Jun 20 00:04:25 jbowler: on the topic of openslug native builds, one of the base criteria is that the SCM used for the openslug native build system must be able to be run on the slug. Jun 20 00:04:59 monotone? Jun 20 00:05:08 bk certainly doesn't Jun 20 00:06:56 soon bk will be a memory Jun 20 00:07:39 yeah. for unslung native builds, cvs runs fine on the slug **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 20 01:47:09 2005 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 20 01:47:29 2005 Jun 20 06:48:32 NAiL: Ping Jun 20 07:35:02 pong Jun 20 07:40:54 You were looking for me? Jun 20 07:41:10 I see you are planning on doing some aero-botics. Jun 20 07:41:49 VoodooZ_Work: Someone said you had used the slug for robotics. I wondered what you used to interface with the servos. But I've found a solution there. Now I only need to figure out how to interface with the reciever ;) Jun 20 07:42:55 In my case I don't use servo (yet). I built an i2c based motor controller board using an AVR mega8 so the slug doesn't have to get its hands dirty Jun 20 07:43:16 yeah Jun 20 07:43:32 I have a bunch of sharp IR rangers read by another mega8 interfaced via I2C. Jun 20 07:43:55 The other guy working on this project has promised getting me a bunch of avrs from work, so I'm gonna use that... Jun 20 07:46:34 yep. definitely the best! Jun 20 07:46:58 Tell him that. He works at Atmel ;) Jun 20 07:46:59 I used PICs back when i started but AVRs are much faster. Jun 20 07:47:05 yeah, I read that. Jun 20 07:47:21 That's a pretty good partner to have! :) Jun 20 07:47:28 hehe, yea Jun 20 07:47:55 I'm currently expirementing with basic computer vision using a USB2.0 camera plugged in the slug. Jun 20 07:48:01 It's slow but it works. Jun 20 07:48:19 yeah Jun 20 07:48:32 I'm not planning on vision so far Jun 20 07:48:43 Keep in mind that the software I2C of the slug is not the best for high speed updates as I noticed a few millisecs of overhead. Jun 20 07:49:02 ouch Jun 20 07:49:06 One could probably build a USB-to-I2C module using an AVR though. Jun 20 07:49:13 hehehe Jun 20 07:49:28 But I wouldn't worry about the overhead. I was pushing it pretty hard. Jun 20 07:49:58 If I could build a USB-to-I2C module using AVR, I might as well build a USB-to-servo module directly :) Jun 20 07:50:05 reading sensors, and controlling motors at 40Hz didn't help Jun 20 07:50:15 true! :) Jun 20 07:50:37 If you do let me know as I would reuse it to make a USB-to-I2C mode with it!: Jun 20 07:51:05 I'm sure your friend has access to those USB AVRs too. Jun 20 07:51:42 I would make one but I'm unsure how the linux driver side would work Jun 20 07:51:55 Dunno much about that. I know he's working on a new AVR that they'll start producing soon. That one has USB. Jun 20 07:52:03 cool! Jun 20 07:52:11 Do you have a model name? Jun 20 07:52:30 I used the mega128 on my last two robots. Jun 20 07:53:09 no, but it was somewhat packed with features. I can't remember anything about it since he listed all the features when I was hung over :P Jun 20 07:53:20 And I probably can't talk too much about it anyways Jun 20 07:53:30 hehehe. That's cool. I'll heard about it on www.avrfreaks.net anyways. Jun 20 07:53:35 ya Jun 20 07:55:11 IIRC, production will start in the end of july Jun 20 07:55:29 good to know. Jun 20 07:56:03 Perhaps I'll end using it as my I/O co-processor in my next rev of the robot instead of using I2C. Jun 20 07:56:06 DUH! Jun 20 07:56:27 Here I'm wondering how to send and recieve stuff from the AeroSlug. Jun 20 07:57:03 Atmel's closest neighbour, and the workplace of another friend of mine is Nordic VLSI.... Jun 20 07:57:58 nice! Jun 20 07:58:07 Don't they produce the 2.4Ghz module? Jun 20 07:58:19 People from our local robotics club use it. Jun 20 07:58:23 amongst other things, yes. They do a lot of RF Jun 20 07:59:07 but 2.4 doesn't exactly have the range I had in mind Jun 20 07:59:50 yeah, it's a lot tougher for you than for me. I only use a cheap bluetooth dongle to communicate with my laptop. Jun 20 08:01:36 did you say you'll be using a chopper or plane type vehicle? Jun 20 08:01:53 but 315/433mhz could do the trick. If not, I could use a 16 channel 40mhz transmitter... could get enough bandwidth from that ;) Jun 20 08:02:13 I was thinking how cool it would be to have a camera pointing down so the AI could lock on an helipad symbol and land on it autonomously! Jun 20 08:02:23 plane, there are some other guys the Atmel guy knows that has done a chopper Jun 20 08:02:42 Looks easier to me anyways. Jun 20 08:02:50 I know it' Jun 20 08:02:59 it's not in practice though Jun 20 08:03:08 There's a lot less freedom with a plane :) Jun 20 08:03:28 yeah Jun 20 08:04:01 But the heli symbol gave me an idea... Jun 20 08:04:14 what? Jun 20 08:04:59 Autonomous landing with the plane.. but paint would probably not be the way to do that ;) Jun 20 08:05:35 ouch! that sounds tough to do with even with a remote! Jun 20 08:06:01 Yeah, it is. But the slug has a lower responsetime than me Jun 20 08:06:31 well, with a good high contrast paint and two long parallel lines you could use a hough transform to have the plane align with the track Jun 20 08:06:37 true. Jun 20 08:06:55 teaching it how to pilot is another thing though! :) Jun 20 08:07:09 I thought about that, but I'm not sure webcams are the best way to pick up that being of so good quality and all :P Jun 20 08:07:55 well, with a USB2.0 640x480 cam outdoors you'll get plenty of resolution and good image. They suck more in low-light. Jun 20 08:08:04 (And if the plane fails to land, I'll blame the guy programming since it wasn't my fault :P) Jun 20 08:08:11 But processing at that res will kill your poor slug. Jun 20 08:08:17 hehehe Jun 20 08:08:56 Is there such a thing as UV paint? Jun 20 08:09:13 yes, i believe so. Jun 20 08:09:31 I've got a logitech cam somewhere that I can remove the UV filter from Jun 20 08:09:36 but then again, with all the sun it would mess things up. Jun 20 08:09:50 hmm.. yes... but it might work at night :P Jun 20 08:09:51 It has a UV filter? are you sure it's an IR filter? Jun 20 08:10:02 hmm Jun 20 08:10:13 Most camera have IR filters. Jun 20 08:10:14 yeah.. it's IR.. Jun 20 08:10:22 But UV sounds strange for indoors. Jun 20 08:11:24 Once we get the plane aligned, we can use ultrasound to measure the distance to the ground. It's pretty accurate Jun 20 08:11:41 yeah. I'm using some for my robot. Jun 20 08:11:57 The devantech modules are I2C based which is great for me. Jun 20 08:12:05 They have newer modules too. Jun 20 08:12:15 Looked at them yesterday :) Jun 20 08:12:48 I like the new SRF-235 one but it's kind of pricey. Jun 20 08:13:34 But since the slug will have more than enough information about its environment at that time, it might be possible to actually land it Jun 20 08:13:37 I've always prefered IR rangers as sonars are finicky as they tend to have a very wide cone so they pick up lots of echos. Jun 20 08:13:55 They had one with a rather narrow cone too? Jun 20 08:14:04 yes! the SRF-235. Jun 20 08:14:10 haha Jun 20 08:14:11 ok Jun 20 08:14:21 That's why I'm finally tempted to use sonar. Jun 20 08:14:23 How long range does IR rangers have? Haven't looked at them Jun 20 08:14:32 3cm to 6meters Jun 20 08:14:46 some of them might be less though Jun 20 08:15:11 Yeah, but 3m might be enough Jun 20 08:15:28 yeah. Jun 20 08:15:28 Since it won't start measuring until it's *over* the strip Jun 20 08:15:42 but without vision how the hell are you going to land it? Jun 20 08:16:30 It knows where the landing strip is (If not, I'll feed it the gps coords ;). It knows it's speed, altitude, yaw, roll, etc. Jun 20 08:17:30 yeah, but how much can you really rely on GPS? Especially at high speed. Wouldn't a simple local vision system simplify things. Jun 20 08:18:18 GPS would put it in the vincinity. From there we could rely on vision, alaser or some other system Jun 20 08:19:11 yeah, that sounds optimal Jun 20 08:19:26 That would be an interesting vision exercise. Jun 20 08:19:34 The problem would then be if we switch to a different landing strip :P Jun 20 08:19:43 I might use a similar technique to align my robot with walls and find intersections. Jun 20 08:20:16 actually, as long as there's parallel lines (don't they all?) that are high in contrast Jun 20 08:20:46 yea Jun 20 08:21:01 I wonder if I can offload that to an fpga Jun 20 08:22:23 for sure! I know someone doing just that. Jun 20 08:22:38 Cool Jun 20 08:24:15 Hmm... Atmel's giving away their fpga dev software.. Coll :) Jun 20 08:24:24 http://www.users.qwest.net/~kmaxon/page/index.html Jun 20 08:24:26 check it out Jun 20 08:24:33 nice! Jun 20 08:24:49 I've always been too lazy to learn how to use FPGA Jun 20 08:25:56 Well... maybe it's about time I learn how to Jun 20 08:26:42 too many cool things to try, not enough time! Jun 20 08:26:55 heheh Jun 20 08:27:08 Yeah, but with FPGA's you could do plenty of them :D Jun 20 08:27:34 true! and fast too! Jun 20 08:29:28 I'm considering using a fpga to do video compression Jun 20 08:30:15 yeah, the guy in link above does NTSC decoding and then colour segmentation, etc... Jun 20 08:30:31 nice Jun 20 08:30:51 I'd thinking about putting atleast two cameras in the plane Jun 20 08:31:03 I wonder how easy it would be to do higher level stuff like canny edge detection and hough transform (to find and extract lines ) Jun 20 08:31:13 two!! Jun 20 08:31:31 Yeah, as far out on the wings as possible Jun 20 08:32:05 The plane will be rather large, so I don't think space will be an issue for some time :P Jun 20 08:32:14 cool. Stereo! Jun 20 08:32:19 exactly Jun 20 08:32:30 you'll definitely an FPGA then! Jun 20 08:32:48 But I need to find a cam that isn't half bad, and that will fitt in the wing Jun 20 08:32:57 fit Jun 20 08:34:13 yeah, could get expensive. Jun 20 08:34:34 I use a web cam because they are cheap and quality is not an issue for me. Jun 20 08:34:39 The "embedded" cameras I've looked at so far are either too big, too low-res, way too expensive, or is attached to the pcb in a way that makes it hard to fit Jun 20 08:35:02 I'll be really happy if I get 640x480. Jun 20 08:35:27 well, how big would be good for you? Jun 20 08:36:08 removing the shell on my Trust Spacecam 380 uSB2.0 cam leaves me with a small 2"x1" module Jun 20 08:36:45 It can be pretty wide, as long as the lens doesn't protude too much Jun 20 08:37:31 I can make it poke out from the wing a little bit, but I don't want it sticking out more than a cm or so Jun 20 08:37:32 the lens on mine could be chopped off as it's just plastic sticking out to facilitate focus adjustment. Jun 20 08:37:39 yeah. Jun 20 08:37:48 And that cam works nicely with the slug? Jun 20 08:38:27 well, because it's a USB2.0 cam there's not much support yet but I've hack together a driver with the help of a fellow roboticist. Jun 20 08:38:46 But a USB1.0 camera would be fully supported if frame rate is not an issue. Jun 20 08:39:17 I like the USB2.0 one as I can get raw uncompressed video at up to 30fps (or even 60fps in the special modes) Jun 20 08:39:20 well... to start with, frame rate isn't that much of an issue. But I'd like to have some fps Jun 20 08:39:39 But the slug can't even process the computer vision that fast so it's a moot point. Jun 20 08:39:59 That's why the slug isn't going to ;) Jun 20 08:40:23 my old usb1.0 camera (omnivision sensor which is supported right in the kernel) worked great but was only 352x288 and slow (5fps!) Jun 20 08:40:40 true! I forgot about that. Jun 20 08:40:58 but why bother with a USB cam then? Jun 20 08:41:16 The sensor on the camera also outputs NTSC signals which you could feed to the FPGA. Jun 20 08:41:22 (like the link I gave you) Jun 20 08:41:23 oh Jun 20 08:41:34 That would be kinda... much better Jun 20 08:41:48 You'd probably have to set it up to do that though. Jun 20 08:41:58 hmm... yeah Jun 20 08:42:00 yeah, bypass the slug altogether Jun 20 08:42:05 yeah Jun 20 08:42:20 Gotta go buy some food. Be back in 15 or so :) Jun 20 08:42:22 Or even get purely analog camera chip Jun 20 08:42:27 later. Jun 20 08:42:33 lunch here too Jun 20 11:12:28 NAiL: there's code in the kernel (the very latest versions) in work/*-kernel/*/arch/arm/mm/proc-xscale.S which sets the watchdog timer Jun 20 11:13:12 There's a chip erratum which makes the result unpredictable, but I believe the signal comes out somewhere, so you could use it to power cycle the slug. Jun 20 11:16:31 [g2]: the svn trunk seems good. I'll wait 'til later today then make the appropriate branch (if nothing shows up meanwhile). Jun 20 11:17:41 [g2]: so we've got glibc and (with a one line change in the source tarball local.conf) uclibc releases - i.e. glibc in binary, both in source Jun 20 11:24:00 <[cc]smart> jbowler-zzz: so there's a subversion repo for openslug already ? Jun 20 11:27:51 [cc]smart: there always has been, that's where the releases are. Jun 20 11:30:16 <[cc]smart> jbowler-zzz: so development is not taking pace there... ? Jun 20 11:31:34 no Jun 20 11:33:34 jbowler-zzz: Thanks. I'll have a look at that later. Jun 20 12:21:23 <[g2]> jbowler-away, thx for the heads up on the svn Jun 20 12:21:36 <[g2]> NAiL, any luck with the native compile this weekend ? Jun 20 12:23:33 [g2]: Haven't had time at all. I can start later tonight Jun 20 12:24:04 I'm finished with the studies for this year. But I seem to have no spare time at all :P Jun 20 12:44:02 [g2]: uh... "bb openslug-image" gives me "Can't open openslug-image"? Jun 20 12:44:31 which bb Jun 20 12:44:33 alias bb Jun 20 12:45:20 uh Jun 20 12:45:25 /bin/bb Jun 20 12:46:00 that's why I've never liked this "bb" thing Jun 20 12:46:07 it's bitbake Jun 20 12:46:17 try bitbake openslug-image Jun 20 12:47:00 File "/usr/local/bin/bitbake", line 26, in ? Jun 20 12:47:00 import bb Jun 20 12:47:00 ImportError: No module named bb Jun 20 12:47:29 Ok, this is gonna break on all gentoo-boxes. /bin/bb is a link to /bin/busybox, which the gentoo devs have suddenly decided that we need. Jun 20 12:47:52 The second error I don't know what is :P Jun 20 12:48:44 NAiL, to help you further I need to know more Jun 20 12:48:52 what doc are you following? Jun 20 12:49:18 I followed the stepbystep thing Jun 20 12:49:25 got a link? Jun 20 12:49:44 And it worked. It has broken not long ago Jun 20 12:49:44 http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/OpenEmbedded/StepByStepSetup Jun 20 12:51:39 man that is waaay out of date Jun 20 12:52:06 well, maybe not Jun 20 12:52:09 maybe that's why it has stopped working :P Jun 20 12:52:41 I still don't see where the PYTHONPATH is set so that bitbake can find its modules Jun 20 12:52:57 how new is your bitbake install ? Jun 20 12:53:45 just updated it Jun 20 12:54:02 can try starting that part over Jun 20 12:54:15 echo $PYTHONPATH Jun 20 12:54:31 nothing Jun 20 12:55:33 that's why bitbake can't find its modules Jun 20 12:57:22 I'd paste mine but all my build machines are powered down right now Jun 20 12:57:31 Fixed that. Odd... Jun 20 12:57:34 Works now Jun 20 12:57:42 ok Jun 20 12:57:45 what's odd ? Jun 20 12:57:55 I had set up pythonpath earlier Jun 20 12:58:36 I haven't emerged busybox yet on amy of my gentoo boxes Jun 20 12:58:59 it installs as /bin/bb Jun 20 12:59:20 and /bin/busybox Jun 20 12:59:41 yeah, this will cause confusion for some more people I bet Jun 20 13:02:10 the bb alias is only mentioned in the stepbystep setup, as far as I can see Jun 20 13:02:36 Adding a small note on that page Jun 20 13:16:35 what I hate about new baselayout in gentoo: * IMPORTANT: 37 config files in /etc need updating. Jun 20 13:16:52 yes, same here Jun 20 13:17:07 Added a note on the wiki regd. the bb alias **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 20 23:59:56 2005