**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 17 02:59:56 2005 Aug 17 07:56:33 argl Aug 17 07:56:53 openslug/tmp/staging/armeb-linux/include/asm/bitops.h is almost empty, is this my setup or a problem with openslug? Aug 17 08:02:21 can anybody please check if this file doesn't contain the expected bit test macros? Aug 17 13:05:40 Any idea why NFS data is unbelievably slow? Aug 17 13:06:06 An ls -lR however goes pretty fast. this with openslug 2.5 as a client Aug 17 13:14:36 are you using user or kernel space NFS? Aug 17 13:18:31 server is ubuntu/2.6.11/kernel space NFS Aug 17 13:22:34 maybe my server... os/x is having a tough time too.... Aug 17 13:44:40 <[g2]> last I checked I got around many MBs on NFS with OpenSlug Aug 17 13:52:12 yeah, i'm expecting that, but i'm getting like 1 packet every 4 seconds. it's comically slow. something is wrong here.... no blaming openslug by any means! Aug 17 13:56:26 the slug is picking up tons of framing errors (viewed with ifconfig -a) anybody know what this indicates??? Aug 17 13:57:23 <[g2]> have you switched cables ? Aug 17 13:57:34 <[g2]> sounds like you are getting errors on the line Aug 17 13:57:53 <[g2]> or switched hubs if you've got a spare around Aug 17 13:58:23 good idea... but i flashed the slug with this same cable/hub many times... Aug 17 14:00:10 <[g2]> well it's not like you aren't getting data through... just it's errored and probably retrying Aug 17 14:00:25 <[g2]> either that or you may have a bad device on the net Aug 17 14:00:55 <[g2]> a cross-over cable can isolate whether it's one of the units Aug 17 14:01:10 <[g2]> the slug is *so* heavy to move :) Aug 17 14:01:20 yeah, you're killing me here! Aug 17 14:02:58 looking a packet trace, my linux server box is sending back a ton of "reply ERR" nfs messages Aug 17 14:49:19 <[g2]> blaster8, ping Aug 17 14:49:28 allo Aug 17 14:49:47 <[g2]> hey... nice job with iptables! Aug 17 14:49:50 thanks Aug 17 14:50:05 still need someone to write up a good NAT guide Aug 17 14:50:16 <[g2]> I think the wiki is clean and the script is a great start Aug 17 14:50:25 <[g2]> it's a big area Aug 17 14:50:47 <[g2]> but what there's something down then ppl can start throwing darts at it Aug 17 14:50:56 <[g2]> s/what/once Aug 17 14:50:58 already had a bit of interest Aug 17 14:51:23 fundamentally, a complete custom firewall is a bit of a rarity Aug 17 14:51:44 <[g2]> are you interested in security ? Aug 17 14:51:54 <[g2]> and firewalling on Linux Aug 17 14:51:58 to some extent - I mostly use BSD Aug 17 14:52:14 moving from ipfw to pf in a month Aug 17 14:52:22 but iptables is good too Aug 17 14:52:31 <[g2]> FreeBSD 6 right ? Aug 17 14:52:31 probably intermediate in terms of features Aug 17 14:52:37 It will be Aug 17 14:53:09 or FreeBSD 5 as I like to call it :) Aug 17 14:53:18 <[g2]> heh Aug 17 14:53:35 they should have labelled 5 as a technology preview or something Aug 17 14:53:46 <[g2]> Linux envy :) Aug 17 14:54:00 <[g2]> or the "standards" are dropping Aug 17 14:54:04 basically - but they bit off more than they could immediately chew Aug 17 14:54:13 well, there's always OpenBSD Aug 17 14:54:34 still doing some really cool things, for such a small project Aug 17 14:54:45 <[g2]> you've probably heard about the device I'm making right ? Aug 17 14:54:49 no Aug 17 14:54:54 I'm still new here :) Aug 17 14:55:11 <[g2]> I'm launching a hw company Aug 17 14:55:26 now that is cool - what to do? Aug 17 14:56:02 <[g2]> basically make "real" embedded linux devices Aug 17 14:56:14 <[g2]> my first product is called the "Loft" Aug 17 14:56:37 <[g2]> it's basically an enhanced slug with all/most of the goodies Linksys left out Aug 17 14:56:45 <[g2]> fully open hw / sw platform Aug 17 14:56:46 the issue with these things is mostly the expense Aug 17 14:57:13 <[g2]> well what my device looks like Aug 17 14:57:20 I'm sure you know this but you have to have a certain amount of base functionality which works well (as Linksys almost did) and then have good hooks to expand it with Aug 17 14:57:30 or even from :) Aug 17 14:57:55 <[g2]> all OpenSlug will pretty much run on it Aug 17 14:58:00 <[g2]> all of Aug 17 14:58:14 which is a very good start Aug 17 14:58:18 <[g2]> heh Aug 17 14:58:26 you may want to give the debian end a kick too Aug 17 14:58:36 <[g2]> exactly Aug 17 14:58:43 never hurts these devices to have a reference debian implementation Aug 17 14:59:03 <[g2]> but actually I think debian may be a dis-advantage Aug 17 14:59:17 ? Aug 17 14:59:38 <[g2]> I'll get to that in a minute Aug 17 14:59:44 ok Aug 17 15:00:12 <[g2]> The device is a IXP422 @ 266Mhz with 64MB memory, .5MB boot flash which boots to a CF card or disk Aug 17 15:00:38 <[g2]> there's dual ethernet, serial external, JTAG header, GPIO and I2C on header Aug 17 15:00:45 <[g2]> plus 2 USB 2.0 host ports Aug 17 15:01:00 <[g2]> full compliance in most of the world Aug 17 15:01:12 <[g2]> FCC B, UL, CE etc... Aug 17 15:01:18 you will want to provide a cheap USB-Serial solution too Aug 17 15:01:42 <[g2]> there's an external serial DB-9 connector Aug 17 15:01:52 <[g2]> all in a metal case Aug 17 15:02:10 <[g2]> it does POE and supports DC from at least 5-24V+ Aug 17 15:02:31 standard compliant PoE Aug 17 15:02:32 ? Aug 17 15:02:40 <[g2]> 802.3af right :) Aug 17 15:02:45 <[g2]> should be Aug 17 15:03:01 In my experience, that can add to the cost of these things quite significantly Aug 17 15:03:24 <[g2]> I'm working with a very good company which is doing the custom build :) Aug 17 15:03:51 another alternative is to do passive PoE, which can be a bit cheaper Aug 17 15:04:09 <[g2]> I'm setting up my web site now and I'll be launching this week or next Aug 17 15:04:32 Finally, make sure you do simple international shipping Aug 17 15:04:43 and get posted on /. (I can help with that) Aug 17 15:04:59 <[g2]> so the board in the case with power supply will sell for $249 US Aug 17 15:05:43 <[g2]> plus I'll have either a knoppix Live DVD with all the source/tools for $19 Aug 17 15:06:16 volume discount? Aug 17 15:06:32 bootloader? Aug 17 15:06:37 <[g2]> Redboot Aug 17 15:06:48 <[g2]> that boots to CF Aug 17 15:06:53 one flaw in an otherwise perfect plan :) Aug 17 15:07:08 <[g2]> Redboot or the CF ? Aug 17 15:07:13 still, Redboot is better supported than anything else Aug 17 15:07:27 <[g2]> actually Redboot and later on APEX if I get the time Aug 17 15:07:42 <[g2]> the Redboot will be turn-key to build Aug 17 15:07:49 now that's good Aug 17 15:08:03 <[g2]> actually.... the entire system will be turn-key to build Aug 17 15:08:26 <[g2]> so.... Aug 17 15:08:28 you should offer custom flashing of images Aug 17 15:08:39 <[g2]> that comes with the box Aug 17 15:08:52 customer provides a firmware image, you flash it ready for them and ship it off Aug 17 15:09:19 <[g2]> it's a lot easier than that Aug 17 15:09:27 Your competition, btw will mostly be http://soekris.com/ Aug 17 15:09:38 <[g2]> actually no Aug 17 15:09:39 but given the cost and heat production of the 4801, I think you should do fine Aug 17 15:10:12 <[g2]> in some ways it competes with the soekris but it's actually a faster box Aug 17 15:10:22 I know Aug 17 15:10:27 and runs cooler Aug 17 15:10:39 <[g2]> and the 422 has MD5/SHA1/CRC32 in hw Aug 17 15:10:46 now that I did not know Aug 17 15:10:53 <[g2]> oh... there's a miniPCI slot too Aug 17 15:10:57 and that Aug 17 15:11:06 [g2], how about 533MHz ? Aug 17 15:11:08 custom wireless router here you come Aug 17 15:11:32 <[g2]> jacques, I can do 533 it really depends on what ppl want Aug 17 15:11:47 how much $ would it add? Aug 17 15:12:00 <[g2]> $20-30 US Aug 17 15:12:34 <[g2]> So for the initial markets LAMP, e-mail, Linux Development, and telematics that's overkill Aug 17 15:12:42 <[g2]> the production build is 200 units Aug 17 15:12:44 the thing is, not many ppl would need the extra speed (sorry, you just said it) Aug 17 15:13:10 [g2]: you really need to think about getting Wireless router software on this Aug 17 15:13:10 <[g2]> so we'll see how the launch goes Aug 17 15:13:12 REALLY Aug 17 15:13:23 <[g2]> blaster8, that's already been done Aug 17 15:13:34 <[g2]> the wireless router market is saturated Aug 17 15:13:35 good, promote it like mad Aug 17 15:13:40 no it's not Aug 17 15:13:55 not at the custom end Aug 17 15:14:17 some ppl (like me) really like the idea of having an open source wireless router, just like their Open Source wired router Aug 17 15:14:19 <[g2]> ppl are using the soekris and Wrap board for that Aug 17 15:14:30 well, the ARM is more power efficient again Aug 17 15:14:39 <[g2]> nod. Aug 17 15:14:48 and you will provide a certain level of support, which Soekris and PCEngines don't Aug 17 15:15:26 * jacques wonders if there are any minipci video cards Aug 17 15:15:30 I'm hearing LOADS of ppl buying embedded devices like the WRAP to run m0n0wall on, only to find the wireless support is appalling Aug 17 15:15:30 <[g2]> there are Aug 17 15:15:42 but on Linux, it is maturing fast Aug 17 15:15:46 interresting Aug 17 15:16:05 <[g2]> monowall is BSD based right ? Aug 17 15:16:14 yes - but it is not customisable Aug 17 15:16:27 it's nice to run Squid on your router for example Aug 17 15:16:49 <[g2]> right... this device is fully customizable and I'll be specializing in custom distos Aug 17 15:16:52 application gateways alongside your normal firewall software, providing extra customisability and security Aug 17 15:17:01 <[g2]> exactly Aug 17 15:17:19 you should push the wireless support - I reckon it alone will sell half of your first 200 Aug 17 15:17:36 <[g2]> it's simple to do that Aug 17 15:18:09 <[g2]> I've run GigE on miniPCI and I'll get some wireless cards put there are already several players in that space Aug 17 15:18:46 <[g2]> I thought of specializing in that space but it's really pretty crowded Aug 17 15:19:17 <[g2]> plus it's a system sale with long leads and very high capital investment for the builds Aug 17 15:19:40 <[g2]> ok... so back to debain Aug 17 15:19:43 <[g2]> debian Aug 17 15:20:19 <[g2]> with custom ARM/Xscale BE release it's actually a pretty big security enhacement Aug 17 15:20:37 <[g2]> which is one of the advantages of the soekris which are x86 based Aug 17 15:20:43 true Aug 17 15:20:56 <[g2]> whens the last time someone wrote a Xscale BE exploit Aug 17 15:20:57 you're average hacker uploads an x86 binary, then gets confused Aug 17 15:21:02 that too Aug 17 15:21:11 <[g2]> nod the 0x90 sled trains just error Aug 17 15:21:47 <[g2]> if one goes debian LE then that class of exploits become possible Aug 17 15:22:02 <[g2]> still very rare compared to x86, but significantly up from BE Aug 17 15:22:27 but that would be the customer's choice Aug 17 15:22:33 <[g2]> right Aug 17 15:22:40 you wouldn't ship as standard with debian - it would just 'be there' Aug 17 15:23:38 <[g2]> well actually, if I get the APEX loader talking to the CF (which shouldn't be super hard) and run the LE CSR stuff a native debain is really straight forward Aug 17 15:24:18 look how these guys do this: http://www.routerboard.com/archive.html Aug 17 15:24:25 <[g2]> I've talked to beewoolie and I think he already had the LE switch in APEX Aug 17 15:25:00 they just have a debian install there if ppl want it, and ship the board with their proprietary RouterOS - works for them Aug 17 15:25:12 <[g2]> nod. Aug 17 15:25:23 wouldn't mind someone speeding up APEX development from a Slug/Usability angle Aug 17 15:25:55 <[g2]> what's holding you back with APEX ? Aug 17 15:26:05 the fact that there is no documentation Aug 17 15:26:15 what it does, whether any packages are needed atm Aug 17 15:26:32 whether there is an upgrade mode, whether and how you access the bootloader Aug 17 15:26:48 <[g2]> you're aware of http://wiki.buici.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/ApexBootloader#IXP42x_and_the_Linksys_NSLU2_aka Aug 17 15:26:50 <[g2]> right ? Aug 17 15:27:10 yeah, the page that asks me to authenticate twice Aug 17 15:28:06 <[g2]> which brings me to the other thing about the Loft Aug 17 15:28:12 <[g2]> it's got the JTAG header on it Aug 17 15:28:12 last time I checked, the latest version of APEX referenced on that page wasn't available on the FTP site Aug 17 15:28:24 <[g2]> so the user can verify the whole device Aug 17 15:28:27 aah, it is now Aug 17 15:28:32 JTAG is good Aug 17 15:29:23 <[g2]> so with a tiny programmer, a screw-driver and a CF card the unit is virtually un-brickable Aug 17 15:29:52 always a danger with these boards Aug 17 15:30:01 <[g2]> well not with this one :) Aug 17 15:30:41 i2c on header? Aug 17 15:30:45 <[g2]> yes Aug 17 15:30:50 buffered, or straight to the cpu? Aug 17 15:30:56 <[g2]> and 4-5 GPIOs Aug 17 15:31:15 look, considering the trouble I am going to to mount an NSLU2 board in a custom case, add a better, integrated power supply, integrate HD and Flash storage, and have USB-Serial and extra USB ports, I would be sorely tempted just to buy your ready-baked product Aug 17 15:31:27 <[g2]> good question, dunno Aug 17 15:32:06 <[g2]> Oh.. it'd be about $25 less without the case Aug 17 15:32:12 <[g2]> that's the whole point Aug 17 15:32:20 of course Aug 17 15:32:32 <[g2]> I don't think linksys could make the device for $125 Aug 17 15:32:32 but it's nice to be talking to your target market, I'm sure :) Aug 17 15:32:44 don't think they'd want to Aug 17 15:33:04 <[g2]> it's a no-brainer in my mind, but I've been way wrong before Aug 17 15:34:00 <[g2]> if the product gets any traction, I'll start to compete with Linksys Aug 17 15:35:17 <[g2]> the point is for my first build I'm only coming in at less than 2x the cost of a comparable linksys unit and I'm working with a community that has more dev's than Linksys has employees Aug 17 15:35:28 <[g2]> and the sw cost is near 0 for me Aug 17 15:36:04 well - except that you need to code an end-user frontend for Openslug Aug 17 15:36:06 <[g2]> if I can ramp to any volume it'll be game-over Aug 17 15:36:39 <[g2]> yes that is needed Aug 17 15:36:42 one bit of advice, use mini_httpd rather than thttpd Aug 17 15:37:03 <[g2]> really ? why ? Aug 17 15:37:14 thttpd is complete overkill Aug 17 15:37:26 <[g2]> heh... Aug 17 15:37:34 <[g2]> I've run apache2 with PHP5 and perl Aug 17 15:37:41 <[g2]> that's complete overkill :) Aug 17 15:37:45 I mean for a user frontend... Aug 17 15:37:51 <[g2]> oh... and that was with SSL Aug 17 15:37:51 oh, you do too Aug 17 15:38:03 aah, mini_httpd supports SSL, and so should you Aug 17 15:38:11 no-one likes plain text passwords Aug 17 15:38:51 <[g2]> the box will most like default to come up with just serial Aug 17 15:39:05 <[g2]> unless an image is loaded in the CF Aug 17 15:39:43 http://m0n0.ch/wall/docbook-current/image-guide-packages.html#id2615985 Aug 17 15:39:55 a good patch for mini_httpd to fix a couple of error Aug 17 15:40:00 right, gtg Aug 17 15:40:11 <[g2]> cheers. Aug 17 15:40:14 <[g2]> nice chatting Aug 17 15:40:17 no probs **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 18 02:59:56 2005