**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 19 05:52:15 2008 Feb 19 07:23:10 openwiz: peteru * r4 test/ (dummy empty_file): Remove test files. Feb 19 07:26:18 Hi Guys Feb 19 07:26:33 Hello Feb 19 07:27:12 Trac setup is coming along nicely, thanks to Rod. Feb 19 07:27:23 cool Feb 19 07:27:39 another system I need to learn Feb 19 07:27:42 ;-) Feb 19 07:28:33 I guess the first thing to put into Trac may be your firmware tools. Feb 19 07:29:02 is trac a management system? Feb 19 07:29:11 with subversion support? Feb 19 07:30:25 Trac is a web front end for Subversion, integrated with a wiki and a ticket management system. Feb 19 07:30:40 right Feb 19 07:31:02 It's quite handy for doing things like crossreferencing changesets against bugs and wiki entries. Feb 19 07:33:39 Who is the harry potter fan? ;-) Feb 19 07:34:24 Any ideas on what to name the Trac instance? "Test" doesn't quite have the ring to it ;-) Feb 19 07:34:37 wiztrac Feb 19 07:34:45 tracwiz Feb 19 07:35:04 I'm usually boring. I'd just name it trac! Feb 19 07:35:13 tracd Feb 19 07:35:31 I wonder whether we should have separate instances for "toolchain", "kernel", "packages" or whether it would make sense to lump it all together. Feb 19 07:36:01 well people might want a toolchain without needing the full kernel Feb 19 07:36:10 rwhitby: Opinions? Feb 19 07:37:33 We can still keep separate subdirectories in SVN. It's more about developer access control and project separation. I guess at this point in time there are not enough people involved to bother with multiple instances. Feb 19 07:38:04 yeah Feb 19 07:45:41 I'v been maintaining my wiztools and wizremote apps in a local cvs repo Feb 19 07:46:07 but it would be better if it was in a shared location Feb 19 07:46:38 Importing it to svn/Trac should not be hard. Feb 19 07:47:06 If you are comfortable with CVS, you'll like SVN. Feb 19 07:47:15 can I keep my revision history? Feb 19 07:47:46 Yes, there are tools for converting cvs repositories to subversion. Feb 19 07:47:51 yeah I've used svn briefly and it looks pretty good Feb 19 07:48:11 I like the single version number per commit idea Feb 19 07:48:26 http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ Feb 19 07:49:22 The server is currently running Subversion 1.4.4 Feb 19 07:50:09 I have the cvs pocket guide by oreilly somewhere Feb 19 07:51:24 I should look at converting my other projects to svn too Feb 19 07:52:27 What platform do you develop on? Feb 19 07:53:12 osx at home and win32 at work Feb 19 07:54:00 how about yourself? Feb 19 07:54:05 I'm on Linux. Feb 19 07:54:12 k Feb 19 07:54:35 I started with linux back in 95 Feb 19 07:54:41 slackware :) Feb 19 07:54:58 There are bound to be a few differences, but having a variety of platforms should result in fairly portable code. Feb 19 07:55:02 used it exclusively untill I got my mac Feb 19 07:55:21 yeah at least it will be endian aware code. ;) Feb 19 07:55:23 I choose Gentoo wherever possible. Feb 19 07:55:44 and try to avoid RedHat derived stuff Feb 19 07:55:54 yeah me too Feb 19 07:56:10 never did like rpms Feb 19 07:57:06 So, how far back does your computing history go? PPC macs, 486, 68k Macs, Amiga, Z80? Feb 19 07:57:31 my first computer was an xt Feb 19 07:57:42 my dad had z80, microbee etc Feb 19 07:58:17 our pc had a herc monitor Feb 19 07:58:51 never did get an amiga or c64 Feb 19 07:59:16 xt, 286, 486, pentium, g4, g5 Feb 19 07:59:52 My first computer was made of cardboard and pencil, but when it comes to electronic ones, I started with a Commodore 16 hooked up to a colour TV. Feb 19 07:59:54 oh and I've got an amd 8000+ for my IDA work Feb 19 08:01:10 I remember loading games from audio tape on my dad's microbee Feb 19 08:01:10 C64, Amiga (just about every model ever made, including CDTV, CD32, A2500 Unix), BeBox and a variety if Intel based boxes. Feb 19 08:01:33 poor old BeOs Feb 19 08:01:54 or am I thinking of somthing else Feb 19 08:02:22 just going to get some dinner Feb 19 08:02:24 bbl Feb 19 08:02:53 A few Mac stints as well, with Quadras and the Intel quad cores when Apple released them, but MacOS and OSX always frustrate me too much to switch platforms. Feb 19 08:03:13 OK, I'll probably disappear for a number of hours as well. Feb 19 09:56:56 re Feb 19 09:57:13 Hello. Feb 19 09:57:55 I was thinking it may be time to rename the Trac project from "Test" to something more inspiring. Feb 19 09:58:22 oh, the test one is just for testing - I'll create real ones as soon as we have stuff to put in them Feb 19 09:58:38 OK, in that case... Feb 19 09:59:04 I'm thinking one per major tool - a trac/svn instance is pretty lightweight. See trac.nslu2-linux.org for an example. Feb 19 09:59:28 The RealOnes will need to have a few things set in the config, like the URL changed from example.com Feb 19 09:59:33 yep Feb 19 09:59:41 But, I guess you are probably aware of those config options. Feb 19 09:59:49 we'll do a template config and then copy to new real ones. Feb 19 10:00:16 feel free to edit the test config (you should have enough access to do that) and we'll use that as the template Feb 19 10:01:40 * rwhitby had a sinclair zx81 first, after doing stuff on a rich friend's trs-80 for a while Feb 19 10:02:07 then a microbee (Z80 chip) after that, then a 286, etc. Feb 19 10:02:15 did a lot of soldering on the microbee Feb 19 10:06:47 I never got into Z80 stuff. But was quite proficient with Motorola 68k code. I even got my head around 68882 Feb 19 10:08:23 I can still remember C3 is the Z80 jmp instruction ... Feb 19 10:20:01 According to Toll Ipec I get the DP-P1 tomorrow Feb 19 10:25:40 Got your screwdriver ready? Feb 19 10:26:20 got the serial port pinout for me? Feb 19 10:26:48 speaking of which, are there any high-res photos of the circuit board anywhere? Feb 19 10:28:51 Andy Choi (CTO at Beyonwiz) just posted that they will release doco for the WizFX protocol. Feb 19 10:30:09 Nop, I don't have the serial port pinout, nor do I have hi-res photos. Feb 19 10:30:48 As I mentioned, I had a go at the serial port a long time ago and made magic blue smoke escape from the RS232 driver IC on my serial port dongle. Feb 19 10:30:59 Haven't returned to it since. Feb 19 10:33:50 protocol doco like that we should mirror externally from beyonwiz Feb 19 10:35:27 Yes, in case they do what Topfield did and withdraw distributing material when being reminded of GPL requirements. Feb 19 10:35:57 Plus, it makes sense to keep all development related stuff in one place - openwiz.org Feb 19 10:36:44 we can check stuff into svn and refer to it with http:// paths. Feb 19 10:44:41 Should I get this guy to do the openwiz logo? http://www.evilbastard.org/ Feb 19 11:54:51 binutils-2.11.2 automake doesn't play nice with OS X Feb 19 11:57:28 Yuv422: I'm thinking that before we announce openwiz.org, we need to have some real software in there. If you've got a cvs repo that you can scp up to the machine, I can import into svn Feb 19 11:57:48 righto Feb 19 11:58:32 feel free to do a test checkout and commit in the test repo Feb 19 11:59:48 Yuv422: are you open to multiple developers working on your software? Feb 19 12:00:13 I don't mind Feb 19 12:00:19 One thing that was wrong about Topfield TAPs was that none were ever in public svn repos - it was all source developed behind closed doors. Feb 19 12:00:26 as long as people discuss before making major changes Feb 19 12:00:29 I'd like to change that for OpenWiz. Feb 19 12:00:51 I've given the source for all my utils thusfar :) Feb 19 12:00:57 of course - we'd run it like the kernel, with people sending patches until they are qualified and given commit access. Feb 19 12:01:10 ok, s/none/few/ :-) Feb 19 12:02:40 We've had all the nslu2-linux svn repos (including our kernel patches repo) open to all 120+ Optware developers for the last two years. In that time we've never had a rogue commit. Mistakes, yes, but nothing intentional or without caring about the error and correcting it immediately. Feb 19 12:03:32 A meritocracy seems to maintain it's own sense of boundaries for each person. Feb 19 12:06:12 Yuv422: did you get a chance to create that rootfs .tar.gz? Feb 19 12:07:06 I've got several lying around Feb 19 12:07:12 they are for the S1 though Feb 19 12:07:18 can you scp it up to hogwarts? Feb 19 12:07:23 sure Feb 19 12:07:34 brb Feb 19 12:08:15 what's a good name for wiz_pack/wiz_unpack/etc? wizimage (a-la slugimage, the tool that packs and unpacks nslu2 firmware)? Feb 19 12:08:54 or just wiztools? Feb 19 12:09:15 (tools might be a bit generic though) Feb 19 12:13:36 rwhitby: where would you like me to stick the cvs repo stuff? Feb 19 12:13:44 It's in my home dir atm Feb 19 12:13:49 spotted it :-) Feb 19 12:14:05 what should we call the repo? Feb 19 12:14:29 well one is the fw tools Feb 19 12:14:35 which I call wizfwtools Feb 19 12:14:43 the other is my wizremote software Feb 19 12:14:53 wizfwtools and wizremote then Feb 19 12:25:50 http://svn.openwiz.org/svnroot/wizfwtools/trunk/ and http://svn.openwiz.org/svnroot/wizremote/trunk/ are ready. Feb 19 12:26:01 (use https:// for commit access) Feb 19 12:26:31 tags and branches should be intact Feb 19 12:32:48 can I use the commandline svn? Feb 19 12:32:57 yep, or Tortoise SVN if you like Feb 19 12:48:10 Yuv422: I'm going to create Trac's for wizfwtools and wizremote Feb 19 12:48:25 ok Feb 19 12:48:37 trac away Feb 19 12:48:55 what are the full names for the projects? Feb 19 12:49:34 wiz firmware tools Feb 19 12:49:35 (like "OpenWiz Firmware Tools" or something) Feb 19 12:49:39 and wizRemote Feb 19 12:49:57 I only really refered to them as wiztools and wizremote Feb 19 12:50:25 "Wiz Firmware Tools" and "Wiz Remote" ? Feb 19 12:50:35 yeah that sounds good Feb 19 12:59:42 https://trac.openwiz.org/wizremote/ and https://trac.openwiz.org/wizfwtools/ are ready for use Feb 19 13:01:24 in subversion terms the trunk is the main branch? Feb 19 13:02:50 yes Feb 19 13:03:50 the key thing to remember about subversion is that everything is just a directory. the trunk, tags and branches directories are just conventions. there is nothing special about them other than the meaning that everyone agrees to give them. Feb 19 13:05:01 if I change the name and update will the server keep track of my sandbox directory name? Feb 19 13:05:26 don't understand the question Feb 19 13:06:27 how would I make a branch Feb 19 13:06:43 do I just copy the code to another directory then ci Feb 19 13:06:54 you can do a server-side copy Feb 19 13:06:59 I can probably research these things myself. :) Feb 19 13:07:02 ah Feb 19 13:07:05 cool Feb 19 13:07:08 in general usage, we just do development on the trunk. Feb 19 13:07:15 yeah Feb 19 13:07:29 (unless more than one person is working on the same files, and making major incompatible changes) Feb 19 13:08:06 but yes, a branch is just a copy of a directory. svn does smart things to not store two copies of the files in the repo until they actually diverge Feb 19 13:08:44 So we can use the Tracs for problem reports on each tool Feb 19 13:08:49 I use branches to play with ideas before comiting on a design back into the main branch Feb 19 13:08:53 on my other projects Feb 19 13:10:10 good plan Feb 19 13:12:15 I'm just compiling binutils Feb 19 13:12:27 I've had to regenerate the automake/autoconff scripts Feb 19 13:15:17 it would be great to check in a set of toolchain build Makefiles into svn Feb 19 13:15:39 It's going to take awhile Feb 19 13:16:30 do you want to create a toolchain repo, so we can collaborate in there? Feb 19 13:16:42 * peteru is back for a bit Feb 19 13:16:42 what have you used as the starting point? Feb 19 13:16:55 peteru: we have two new projects in openwiz.org Feb 19 13:17:08 I noticed. Feb 19 13:17:21 as soon as we have some text on the front-page trac wiki of each, we can go public Feb 19 13:17:52 I guess in terms of public acceptance, the trick will be to document the firmware tools on the wiki and also provide links to at least Win32 binaries. Feb 19 13:18:01 right. Feb 19 13:18:18 as long as the binaries are built from the source in the repo, I'm fine with them being downloadable. Feb 19 13:19:01 openwiz.org has multiple *big* pipes connected to it Feb 19 13:19:43 Not sure if you guys have heard, but apparently Steven Han (the Beyonwiz guy that has done most of the technical PR on the forums and is technical lead on the PVRs) is ill, so we are not likely to see much activity from BWiz side for at least a few weeks. Feb 19 13:20:01 bummer Feb 19 13:20:59 yeah that's no good Feb 19 13:22:08 We may as well get started on the toolchain Trac then. Perhaps import the source that Yuv422 found, then we can check in changes required to make it build. Feb 19 13:22:36 I'm just going back over a fresh copy seeing what I needed to change to get it to build. Feb 19 13:23:03 I'm trying to build with the least amount of assistance from the GPL_DA config files Feb 19 13:23:40 did you see tony got stuff to run from ipodlinux toolchains? Feb 19 13:24:05 yeah Feb 19 13:25:47 I'm off now Feb 19 13:25:51 me too Feb 19 13:25:58 cya Feb 19 13:25:59 let's create the toolchain repo tomorrow Feb 19 13:26:03 righto Feb 19 13:26:10 Night guys. Feb 19 13:26:15 cya peter Feb 19 13:26:20 night all Feb 19 23:00:27 morning Feb 19 23:16:27 peteru: does a 500GB disk work? Feb 19 23:46:18 rwhitby: I don't have 500GB disk to test with, but people on the forums report having installed and used 500GB disks. Feb 19 23:46:51 just wondering whether I should crack the case today when I get it and install a 500GB disk now Feb 19 23:47:20 Might as well, if you have the hardware lying around. Feb 19 23:47:37 peteru: what are your thoughts on www.openwiz.org ? Do we need a mediawiki instance instead of just using another trac? Feb 19 23:48:41 Yes, I think so. Feb 19 23:50:05 Hmm - perhaps we should just link to wiki.beyonwizsoftware.net ... Feb 19 23:51:26 although user registration on that seems to be broken Feb 19 23:52:45 I'm in two minds about that. I don't want to sabotage the efforts that Jani has been putting in, but I would prefer to have more control over the public face of openwiz.org Feb 19 23:53:23 I say suggest that Jani focus on the delivery of software to end-users, and we focus on the creation of software by developers. Feb 19 23:53:57 so therefore he shouldn't need a wiki, unless it's for end-user software manual creation in the wiki Feb 19 23:54:13 That sounds good. I do know that he is already flat out just trying to maintain the Toppy and BWiz software index. Feb 19 23:55:01 But I do understand his motivation behind trying to provide a place to organise useful info. I guess we can always invite him to make use of the openwiz.org media wiki. Feb 19 23:55:41 yep Feb 19 23:56:54 bb in 20 minutes... Feb 20 00:50:14 peteru: GFDL or CC license? Feb 20 01:04:01 I was just studying them both and am not 100% convinced about either. Feb 20 01:04:39 I guess the CC is a bit more flexible since we could mix and match. Feb 20 01:18:23 http://www.openwiz.org/ ready for testing Feb 20 01:25:05 peteru: I was able to do GFDL out of the box, will need to read up on how to change that to CC if we want to go that way. Feb 20 01:32:07 I'm just reading the text of the GFDL and some of the requirements in the modifications section may require "technological measures". Things like giving credit to at least 5 principal authors of each page. Feb 20 01:33:23 I guess the wiki does the job by preserving page history. Feb 20 01:42:46 Do you think it would be workable to have a policy of all pages defaulting to GFDL, but allowing the original authors of a page to specify one of a few alternative licenses? Feb 20 01:47:51 The author of any page gets to specify their license. We just need a default. Feb 20 01:48:18 BTW, I've added some spam avoidance stuff to the wiki. Feb 20 01:48:22 http://www.openwiz.org/wiki/Special:Version Feb 20 01:49:03 can you create a user and see if you get a captcha image? Feb 20 01:49:12 (I'm RodWhitby on the wiki) Feb 20 01:49:13 OK, in that case let's just leave it at GFDL Feb 20 01:50:14 I created a user about 3-4 minutes ago and it required no captcha Feb 20 01:50:43 Just a click on a confirmation link emailed to me. Feb 20 01:52:38 ah, I only just added it Feb 20 01:56:09 OK, the create account page now asks me to solve "73 - 1" Feb 20 01:57:04 ok, I've worked out how to do CC - which license do we want? Feb 20 01:57:09 Mind you, this is going to be trivial to parse by a bot, given that the captcha is a valid input to expr() and is neatly enclosed by unique tags. Feb 20 01:58:08 Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike ? Feb 20 01:58:44 e.g. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/au/ Feb 20 01:59:05 or do we want to allow commercial use? Feb 20 01:59:07 Seems sensible - let me have a read... Feb 20 01:59:29 Commercial may be OK. Feb 20 02:01:36 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/au/ Feb 20 02:03:21 I'm in two minds about commercial use - there are cases in the Toppy community where a Windows GUI was put around freely available (but improperly licensed) software and the authors charge fees for "license keys" Feb 20 02:03:58 Now, that's a software licensing issue, but I have seen a trend of packaging info in PDFs as well. Feb 20 02:04:33 yes, but here we're talking about information being used to create commercial works Feb 20 02:04:37 As far as I am aware, no one is charging money for assembling info into PDFs yet, but I would not want to get to that case. Feb 20 02:05:02 the Share-Alike should cover that Feb 20 02:06:15 hmm - perhaps it doesn't Feb 20 02:06:32 The bit that says "Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder" makes me think that http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/au/ is the best choice. Feb 20 02:06:50 ok, if we make it non-commercial, the author of the information (which will be recorded since we don't allow anonymous edits) can give those rights. snap. Feb 20 02:07:21 If someone is going to go into the effort of making money out of it, they can go into the effort of getting permission. Feb 20 02:08:15 That encourages free sharing, but does not prevent commercial use if there is a strong case for it. Feb 20 02:08:31 done **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 20 02:59:57 2008