**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 19 02:59:57 2010 Feb 19 08:30:26 anyone here have any experience with the Sheevaplug? Feb 19 08:32:58 hello, i want to install ubuntu on the ipad. which version should i choose? Feb 19 08:33:22 UNR? Feb 19 08:33:31 is ipad at all hackable? Feb 19 08:34:03 Stskeeps, i have special priveleges ;) Feb 19 08:34:28 well get a linux kernel working first, :P Feb 19 08:34:55 im sure the kernel works Feb 19 08:35:08 its a general ARM core in the A4 chip Feb 19 08:35:26 well, not so much about that Feb 19 08:35:30 cortex-A9 to be specific Feb 19 08:35:40 but you need to have linux kernel booting and chipsets/SoC supported etc Feb 19 08:35:52 so which version of ubuntu do i choose? UNR? Ubuntu MID? Feb 19 08:36:03 and iphone linux attempts haven't gone that well, afaik Feb 19 08:36:51 Stskeeps, ya, it's a imaginary scenario... i dont really have the ipad Feb 19 08:36:53 :) Feb 19 08:37:21 i was asking for ipad like ARM touch devies Feb 19 08:37:23 devices* Feb 19 08:45:37 I want to build a custom Ubuntu based on 9.04 that has support for a lot of wifi chipsets ... This is for a Sheevaplug ... what is the best resource for accomplishing this? Feb 19 08:46:42 basically, I need to learn how to gather the parts and compile the OS, and install it.... Feb 19 09:03:08 pranith, as long as you have a kernbel and bootloader, try rootstock to assdemble a userspace Feb 19 09:03:11 *assemble Feb 19 09:03:26 * ogra needs to take a typing course it seems Feb 19 09:05:03 i would start with a simple ubuntu-minimal build to see if the kernel works with the userspace, if that works, install whatever desktop env you like (use the ubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-netbook metapackages for that, MID is rather dead nowadays) Feb 19 09:11:21 ogra, thanks! Feb 19 11:56:20 hi! i search for sql-server and client for arm720t. can you give me some advice, please? Feb 19 12:05:37 Would be great if someone could test valgrind on armel :-) Feb 19 12:05:57 I'm aware of one upsteam issue which might affect some code pathes, basic testing against e.g. "ls" would be great Feb 19 12:06:08 noisi: Are you looking for binaries? Feb 19 12:06:41 yes, everything :-) Feb 19 12:06:48 noisi: Your CPU is very old, I'm not sure it's supported by ARM anymore Feb 19 12:07:04 noisi: Also, it's of the ARMv4 family, and Ubuntu never supported this Feb 19 12:07:18 We supported ARMv5t in jaunty (9.04) but that is getting old Feb 19 12:07:31 noisi: Debian does support ARMv4T though, so Debian binaries should work Feb 19 12:07:48 noisi: Are you using EABI or OABI? Feb 19 12:08:21 i donīt know eabi/oabi Feb 19 12:08:30 noisi: That's important, you should find out Feb 19 12:08:46 noisi: check your kernel config, look for ABI in CONFIG_ names Feb 19 12:09:21 we have CONFIG_AEABI=y CONFIG_OABI_COMPAT=y in Ubuntu for instance Feb 19 12:09:50 i got a box with arm720t form http://www.owasys.com/ Feb 19 12:10:25 with no sources Feb 19 12:10:30 noisi: I understand, but arm720t wont work with Ubuntu and depending on which ABI you're using, you should use one or the other Debina port Feb 19 12:10:41 Both will work on your hardware, it depends of your kernel Feb 19 12:10:48 ok Feb 19 12:10:48 noisi: So you don't have a kernel? Feb 19 12:11:23 there is running a system Feb 19 12:11:34 noisi: With Linux? Feb 19 12:12:27 Linux (none) 2.4.18-rmk3 #1264 Tue Nov 28 11:40:43 2006 armv4l unknown Feb 19 12:12:48 if i type uname -a Feb 19 12:13:16 noisi: This is antique Feb 19 12:13:41 noisi: But you should have gotten the sources with your kernel (per the GPL) Feb 19 12:14:01 noisi: I am not sure how well Debian will work on 2.4.x kernels at this point though Feb 19 12:15:02 okk Feb 19 12:16:33 lool, do you have any elegant pygtk reciepe to make Popen non-blocking without having to fiddle with fnctl and additional filehandles ? Feb 19 12:17:08 i.e. a magic switch i dont know about for subprocess Feb 19 12:17:22 I'm sorry, you can't use 'pygtk' and 'elegant' in the same sentence. Feb 19 12:17:27 pfft Feb 19 12:17:45 i just cant imagine that subprocess doesnt have anything builtin Feb 19 12:19:07 ogra: I don't understand the problem Feb 19 12:20:20 ogra: The default for Popen is to not block Feb 19 12:20:26 I mean subprocess.Popen Feb 19 12:21:10 ogra: By default, subprocess.Popen does os.spawn with P_NOWAIT Feb 19 12:21:22 It's only if you interact() that it will block on it (obviously) Feb 19 12:21:46 err communicate() Feb 19 12:21:54 Sorry, I'm confused by expect terminology Feb 19 12:22:40 hmm Feb 19 12:23:12 well, if i have output where the subprocess is busy for a while without spilling a new line my UI gets unresponsive Feb 19 12:23:31 ogra: How are you reading from your subprocess? Feb 19 12:23:34 ogra: code? Feb 19 12:24:30 http://paste.ubuntu.com/379703/ Feb 19 12:24:46 stdout.readline() Feb 19 12:26:26 i tried communicate but its buffering eternally Feb 19 12:27:04 ogra: I think you need to use select.select() and os.read() Feb 19 12:27:19 and fnctl then i guess Feb 19 12:28:15 ogra: oh you're doing while output.poll() is None: Feb 19 12:28:28 So you should use poll() Feb 19 12:28:39 check for POLLIN Feb 19 12:30:11 ah, thats what i was looking for i think Feb 19 12:30:39 all solutions i found yet route through additional filehandles which i'd like to avoid Feb 19 12:31:15 The pipes should be fine Feb 19 12:38:07 non-blocking IO for the python world! Feb 19 12:42:12 asac, well, even python can do fork() and pipe() :) its just that i dont use that Feb 19 12:42:38 we'll get asac loving python sooner or later ;) Feb 19 12:42:42 yeah Feb 19 12:43:15 just remember gwibber spawning threads for blocking IO ;) Feb 19 12:44:20 i luckily have never seen gwibber from the inside :) Feb 19 12:48:41 * asac reboots after upgrade Feb 19 12:48:47 dont ! Feb 19 12:48:54 you'll lose your sound Feb 19 12:51:29 Sadly there's no proper threading in python :-( Feb 19 12:51:42 only real child processes Feb 19 12:52:13 yeah Feb 19 13:02:11 seems my upgrade removed a bunch of stuff i didnt spot ;) ... like nm-applet etc. Feb 19 13:02:18 * asac goes fixing his system Feb 19 13:03:15 hmm. is it possible that the sata port of bbg is really really slow? Feb 19 13:07:45 yes, because it is no SATA port Feb 19 13:08:22 It hangs off of USB doesn't it? Feb 19 13:08:27 right Feb 19 13:08:32 with usb speeds Feb 19 13:08:38 16MB/s Feb 19 13:08:53 can peak up to 20 ... but thats rare :) Feb 19 13:15:49 ogra: my sata drive is definitly slower than what i had with USB Feb 19 13:15:53 its really crawling Feb 19 13:16:37 maybe i should go for SD card again ;) Feb 19 13:17:47 heh Feb 19 13:19:19 ogra@babbage2:~$ sudo hdparm -t /dev/mmcblk0p2|grep MB Feb 19 13:19:19 Timing buffered disk reads: 32 MB in 3.17 seconds = 10.09 MB/sec Feb 19 14:31:52 morning Feb 19 14:33:12 Stskeeps: hi here Feb 19 14:33:34 moo Feb 19 14:34:37 I see that next ubuntu release will target armv7 cpus only. which devices/cpus are supported? Feb 19 14:35:43 as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/DeviceSupport is rather not up-to-date Feb 19 14:36:30 hrw, imx51 (freescale) and dove (marvell armada) Feb 19 14:36:38 up to now ... Feb 19 14:36:51 ogra: no omap3? Feb 19 14:36:58 no kernel Feb 19 14:37:04 ok Feb 19 14:37:07 so we dont build images Feb 19 14:37:20 but userspace indeed works on all v7 CPUs Feb 19 14:37:44 how many people work on ubuntu/arm? Feb 19 14:38:14 well, hard to say ... we ven have a good bunch of beagle people helping on it :) Feb 19 14:38:22 or do you mean inside canonical ? Feb 19 14:38:25 inside Feb 19 14:39:03 I have a bunch of arm boards on desk and just checked how many of them can run ubuntu. Feb 19 14:39:04 in the distro/mobile team we're 8 if i didnt miscount, plus a bunch in the kernel team Feb 19 14:39:37 but most of them are armv5te or armv6. just beagleboard and n900 are armv7a ones Feb 19 14:40:05 v5 was supported in jaunty Feb 19 14:40:17 in karmic we switched to v6+vfp Feb 19 14:40:26 lucid now is v7+thumb2 Feb 19 14:40:34 I noticed Feb 19 14:40:49 btw, as you can see on http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/ it will soon be more than 8 :) Feb 19 14:41:25 like ... a lot more :) Feb 19 14:41:34 ogra: I do not have to go there to know ;) I just looked into my inbox Feb 19 14:41:36 ;D Feb 19 14:41:59 lol Feb 19 14:43:56 hmm Feb 19 14:43:59 * asac blind Feb 19 14:44:04 doesnt see where ocaml uses arm.S Feb 19 14:44:12 i guess its not used at all Feb 19 14:45:06 anyone can check if i miss something? Feb 19 14:45:38 hmm. is ASPP a default variable for make? Feb 19 14:45:42 dont see it defined either Feb 19 14:46:11 oh Feb 19 14:46:12 ;) Feb 19 14:46:15 * asac should go one up Feb 19 14:46:27 * ogra hands asac some glasses Feb 19 14:46:36 still cant find that arm.o is really used Feb 19 14:46:43 dont see anything in the build log either Feb 19 14:46:50 * asac thinks about marking it as invalid Feb 19 14:47:08 dmart: ^^ Feb 19 14:47:20 ocaml ... cant find in build system that arm.S is actually used Feb 19 14:48:53 btw - armel is not 1st class arch in ubuntu? it is not present in packages.ubuntu.com interface Feb 19 14:49:10 hrw: thats just a technical detail Feb 19 14:49:16 it still lives in ports.ubuntu.com for a few reasons Feb 19 14:49:23 but its supported ;) Feb 19 14:49:54 ok Feb 19 14:50:06 where I can read more about devices which are supported? Feb 19 14:51:07 we currently support marvel dove and freescale imx51 devboards Feb 19 14:55:39 thx. both looks like hard-to-get devboards Feb 19 15:04:03 hrw: Ubuntu lucid will work on any board with VFP+Thumb2+ARMv7 support, you just need to use rootstock to spin your own image. Feb 19 15:04:21 ok Feb 19 15:16:43 update-notifier: Depends: update-notifier-common (= 0.95) but 0.96 is to be installed Feb 19 15:17:02 whtas going on :( Feb 19 15:17:05 asac, still ? Feb 19 15:17:12 it definitly built Feb 19 15:17:14 so its something else Feb 19 15:17:21 * asac tries what apt-get install says Feb 19 15:17:42 was it published etc Feb 19 15:17:56 that doesnt have a problem Feb 19 15:18:05 weird Feb 19 15:18:19 i didnt ran it, but it didnt complain and asked to go ahead Feb 19 15:18:31 ogra: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/ubuntu-netbook-imx51/20100219/livecd-20100219-armel.out Feb 19 15:18:35 maybe thats not a new run= Feb 19 15:18:35 ? Feb 19 15:18:51 ogra: can you kick off a llivefs build manually? Feb 19 15:19:12 yes Feb 19 15:19:52 ogra: can you do? :-P Feb 19 15:20:38 running Feb 19 15:20:58 takes 3h though ... Feb 19 15:36:32 asac, didnt fail yet, thats a good sign Feb 19 15:36:41 unless the livebuilder locked up :) Feb 19 16:10:08 hey, for those pegatron nettops .. is there a 9.10 or 10.4 image I can throw on it? Feb 19 16:10:18 nope Feb 19 16:10:23 we dont have a kernel Feb 19 16:22:41 Martyn: I found Karmic can work, though it requires a bit of a bodge to run it on the existing jaunty kernel Feb 19 16:23:09 * dmart_ curses nick lockouts Feb 19 16:23:55 ogra, asac: Did anyone have a chance to connect a board running the current imx51 kernel via a hub? Feb 19 16:24:14 dmart_: ogra tried that Feb 19 16:24:18 dmart_, i dont have a hub around and nobody around me seels them :( Feb 19 16:24:20 he wasnt able to reproduce issues Feb 19 16:24:21 IRC _really_ does not like that I have to keep pulling out my uplink cable to download things onto the board... Feb 19 16:24:24 *sells Feb 19 16:24:31 really Feb 19 16:24:32 asac, i only tested on switches Feb 19 16:24:34 ogra: you sent a mail Feb 19 16:24:40 ogra: why did you test switches ;) Feb 19 16:24:57 dmart_: ok scratch that. seems we dont have a hub then Feb 19 16:25:17 Can one still find hubs? Feb 19 16:25:18 asac, because i dont have hubs and nobody said there was a prob with hubs until after i sent the mail Feb 19 16:25:23 Martyn: I never got any useful information out of ARM, so I just went with the Genesi-side docs instead. They use a different wifi chip but the rest works: http://blog.efikamx.info/2009/12/releases-for-22nd-december-2009-u-boot.html Feb 19 16:25:24 ogra: your mail really sounded like you tested hubs ... i wouldnt have expected a mail aabout switches at all Feb 19 16:25:32 because noone complained about those Feb 19 16:25:38 asac, huh ? Feb 19 16:25:44 nevermind Feb 19 16:27:28 lool: maybe on ebay Feb 19 16:27:58 or as a do-it-yourself soldering kit for kids to learn about network HW :) Feb 19 16:28:21 Maybe fsl could help with this? Feb 19 16:29:36 well, i didnt see any issues with iftop on switches when testing karmic and lucid ... there was a difference of 5Mbit/sec between the two though Feb 19 16:30:26 dmart_, are you seeing that on lucid too ? Feb 19 16:30:55 It's only on lucid --- it may have come in at the time of the fsl .31 kernel merge, since it didn't happen very early in the cycle. Feb 19 16:31:22 early in the cycle we used the karmic kernel Feb 19 16:31:35 lucid is 100% freescale now Feb 19 16:31:43 But boards running the current kernel are ~ unusable for development unless I uplink directly --- download drops from normal speed to 10-100kB/s Feb 19 16:32:09 This has been seen with Babbage 2.0 and 3.0, and with multiple hubs. Feb 19 16:32:19 bad :/ Feb 19 16:32:58 Unfortunately our IT temporarily ran out of switches too... but I'll try and order one. Feb 19 16:35:21 i'll try to get a hub somewhere over the weekend Feb 19 16:35:28 cant be that hard to find one Feb 19 16:35:45 hopefully not... Feb 19 16:35:51 (i only checked the closest HW shops around) Feb 19 16:36:15 On another topic, is anyone else having trouble with the current armel images? Feb 19 16:36:37 For me, ubuntu-netbook 20100215 (current) -> ubiquity crashes shortly before completion Feb 19 16:37:09 ubuntu-desktop 20100218 -> the same, + nautilus crashes and repeatedly respawns Feb 19 16:37:12 there were a lot of fixes to ubiquity within the last three days Feb 19 16:37:24 though i heard partitioning is broken atm Feb 19 16:37:28 I didn't try to run ubiquity on 20100219, but nautilis still crashes. Feb 19 16:37:34 ignore ubuntu-desktop please Feb 19 16:37:42 the livefs isnt updated anymore Feb 19 16:37:58 StevenK, ^^^ can we stop producing images as well here ? Feb 19 16:38:05 I did a debootstrap instead and I get a working-ish system (except rsyslogd eats all the CPU), and nautilus does not crash, weirdly. Feb 19 16:38:24 (gah, i still didnt check how late it is for steve ... ) Feb 19 16:38:35 Ah, if the livefs is no longer updated that would explain why nautilis isn't fixed. Feb 19 16:38:40 right Feb 19 16:38:50 I was only using -desktop because the netbook image was borked... Feb 19 16:38:59 ignore desktop, i'll care for it not showing up on cdimage anymore next week Feb 19 16:39:10 Sounds sensible Feb 19 16:39:19 Is there a metapackage for -netbook in case I need to bootstrap it? Feb 19 16:39:24 yep Feb 19 16:39:29 ubuntu-netbook :) Feb 19 16:39:45 Hmmm, looked for that but couldn't find that before Feb 19 16:40:09 though better try the task Feb 19 16:40:17 apt-get install ubuntu-netbook^ Feb 19 16:40:24 (mind the caret) Feb 19 16:40:39 Found it now, maybe my package list was out of date. Feb 19 16:40:44 i just did a rootstock testinstall today like that Feb 19 16:40:51 right, should be there Feb 19 16:41:58 Found it... maybe my lists were out of date Feb 19 16:42:04 yeah Feb 19 16:42:35 Is the intention that ubuntu-desktop should still work? It's a bit nicer for development purposes, but building images is not really needed. Feb 19 16:43:22 should still be installable, yes Feb 19 16:43:33 we just dont test it or roll images Feb 19 16:43:51 Sure. It looks like mono unbroke, so I can install it now, anyway. Feb 19 16:43:53 but unless there are massive regressions (which i wouldnt expect) it should just work Feb 19 16:44:28 Nothing untested ever "just works" ;) But that's fine in this case Feb 19 16:44:37 heh Feb 19 16:45:01 asac: How's the Thumb2 porting stuff going? Feb 19 16:45:49 dmart_: currently working on it my self. Feb 19 16:45:57 ocaml invalidated (asm isnt used at all) Feb 19 16:46:20 Should we have another sprint? I don't think a time was suggested yet. Feb 19 16:46:40 I also haven't seen a time suggested. Feb 19 16:46:43 dmart_: next week about the same time i would suggest Feb 19 16:46:52 problem is that australia wants to participate Feb 19 16:46:55 11:00 UTC on Thursday? Feb 19 16:47:00 thats good Feb 19 16:47:11 then US has to skip i guess Feb 19 16:47:17 but they had their chance last time Feb 19 16:47:19 Or come late. Feb 19 16:47:46 I can possibly do an evening, so long as it doesn't happen too often ;) Feb 19 16:47:55 dmart_: 1100 UTC it is Feb 19 16:47:59 i will send an invite Feb 19 16:48:04 OK, fine for me. Feb 19 16:48:16 That's a week away though, did we want to do it earlier? Feb 19 16:48:18 and try to get the team to work on that next week with more pressure ;) Feb 19 16:48:33 dmart_: The issue is that midnight UTC is a good time to start working in Asia, so "evening" can get quite late :) Feb 19 16:48:46 dmart_: you are always here ... thats ok; we just need to work outside of the sprint on it too Feb 19 16:49:54 which I feel we didnt do enough the last week (partly excused by part of the team on the road this week) Feb 19 17:02:46 Is there a list of packages which nobody has picked up yet? I've been a bit distracted this week, but hopefully I can look at a couple Feb 19 17:03:24 People should be updating the wiki when they do something. If you find a pacakge not updated, it's fair game. Feb 19 17:03:45 OK Feb 19 17:06:42 How is dove these days? Feb 19 17:13:04 curring Feb 19 17:13:12 (sorry couldnt resist :P ) Feb 19 17:13:22 X0 should be fine again Feb 19 17:14:05 sounds good Feb 19 17:14:23 and i heard even Y1 was good according to GrueMaster Feb 19 17:14:42 Was that from kernel updates, or something else? Feb 19 17:15:07 kernel updates, mainly the most recent fix afaik Feb 19 17:15:20 * asac apt-get source mono Feb 19 17:15:28 * asac find | xargs grep mov.*pc Feb 19 17:15:34 2.6.32-201.10 Feb 19 17:15:42 only went in yesterday Feb 19 17:16:29 For lucid also, or just karmic? Feb 19 17:16:32 dmart: we have really odd issues in the mono testcases... one that strikes me is that Integer.MAX_VALUE++ seems to not overflow ... does that ring any bell? Feb 19 17:17:04 Not really. Is this a regression since Thumb2? Feb 19 17:17:11 unlikely Feb 19 17:17:15 in karmic 40 testcases failed Feb 19 17:17:18 now its just 37 ;) Feb 19 17:17:24 ah Feb 19 17:17:36 nevermind. have to check the code what is actually happening for increment to get an idea Feb 19 17:17:49 Maybe the code which detects the overflow is not correct. I don't know the mono internals myself... Feb 19 17:18:15 ulong a = UInt64.MaxValue; ulong t = a++; Feb 19 17:18:20 thats what is not overflowing Feb 19 17:18:27 asac: find | xargs grep => rgrep or grep -r Feb 19 17:18:33 dmart: yeah probably. its odd that it works on other archs though ;) Feb 19 17:18:37 lool: i know ;) Feb 19 17:18:47 Oh ok Feb 19 17:18:52 its jus tthat that flows out of my fingers automatically ;) Feb 19 17:19:00 also you can more easily restrict what to search with find imo Feb 19 17:19:04 * lool has grep -rl in his fingers instead Feb 19 17:19:06 but could be i am just too old ;) Feb 19 17:19:23 * persia things xargs is obsolete anyway, since find grew exec + Feb 19 17:19:24 asac: I do **/*.c when I need to limit to certain file types Feb 19 17:19:40 will try to change my habit ;) Feb 19 17:19:51 asac: Oh just suggested it in case you wouldn't use it Feb 19 17:20:05 I discovered grep -r after some years of linux and it changed my life Feb 19 17:20:18 Would have been suprizing if you hadn't known about it Feb 19 17:20:26 grep -rn is key to understading source files. Feb 19 17:20:43 to be honest i discovered it not that long ago ... couple of years maybe ;) Feb 19 17:40:04 dmart: #define ARM_DEF_BX(reg,sub,cond) (0x12fff << 8 | (reg) | ((sub) << 4) | ((cond) << ARMCOND_SHIFT)) Feb 19 17:40:09 that is supposed to emit bx ;) Feb 19 17:40:13 is that number correct? Feb 19 17:41:03 It looks probably correct for ARM, but the Thumb encodings are different. Feb 19 17:41:12 right. Feb 19 17:41:14 Do you know what gets passed for sub Feb 19 17:41:16 > Feb 19 17:41:33 Hey guys! Are you using any crosscompiling toolchain? Feb 19 17:42:02 rbelem, nope Feb 19 17:42:17 dmart: http://paste.ubuntu.com/379877/ Feb 19 17:42:34 rbelem, use qemu-arm-static and do native builds in chroot :) Feb 19 17:42:35 so ARMREG_IP Feb 19 17:42:38 let me check what that is Feb 19 17:43:05 ogra, i'm using that, but i want make builds faster Feb 19 17:43:08 Probably the register numper for ip (it's r12) Feb 19 17:43:11 using icecc Feb 19 17:43:42 icecc rocks! Feb 19 17:43:45 :-) Feb 19 17:43:51 asac: The fact that mono is doing code gen might be an issue --- it's presumably generating ARM code, so we need to watch out for calls into and out of that code. Feb 19 17:44:38 dmart: so sub == 1 Feb 19 17:44:54 dmart: not worth fixing the code to emit thumb2 code? Feb 19 17:45:34 Yes, but that might be a larger job. Is this a JIT, or it just generating a few native call veneers or similar? Feb 19 17:45:58 its a jit ... we have all the defines in the mono/arch/arm/arm-codegen*.h Feb 19 17:46:03 ogra, i'm using maemo(RIP) with qemu-arm-static and icecc to speedup the builds Feb 19 17:46:04 there is mono/arch/arm/arm-codegen.h and also mono/arch/arm/arm-codegen-vfp.h Feb 19 17:46:07 and otheres Feb 19 17:46:34 rbelem, ah Feb 19 17:46:37 dmart: wanna take a look at those files to see how much changes it would be to come up with thumb? Feb 19 17:47:03 feels like if i knew this stuff it would be just going through that full file ;) Feb 19 17:47:12 dmart: so whats the idea to watch for calls-in and out? Feb 19 17:47:13 ogra, and the scratchbox toolchain Feb 19 17:47:28 right, thats fine for maemo stuff :) Feb 19 17:47:41 * dmart apt-get source mono ... Feb 19 17:48:02 ogra, but now i'm planning help you with arm porting :-) Feb 19 17:48:14 hmm they already have stuff like: "THUMBOP_TST" Feb 19 17:48:19 e.g. ThumbOpcode Feb 19 17:48:26 in mono/arch/arm/arm-codegen.h Feb 19 17:49:04 rbelem, well, then qemu and icecc to do native builds are likely the best you can do beyond using real HW Feb 19 17:49:22 (or distcc) Feb 19 17:51:44 ogra, that's why i want a crosscompiler. The build nodes will use it. Feb 19 17:52:10 just make the nodes run it in qemu-arm-static ? Feb 19 17:52:35 ogra, but it is very painful Feb 19 17:52:54 well, cross building is more painful imho Feb 19 17:53:08 as long as you have dependenciesw at least Feb 19 17:53:20 its surely suitable for something like a kernel testbuild Feb 19 17:53:42 ogra, i use my colleagues computers, so i can not install it on each computer Feb 19 17:53:46 but i wouldnt want to build any desktop package in a cross way Feb 19 17:54:21 and beyond that you might hit toolchain issues that arent present in native builds or vice versa Feb 19 17:54:29 or compiler issues Feb 19 17:55:39 ogra, which issues are possible? Feb 19 17:55:47 reconnect Feb 19 17:55:49 well, you use a different compiler Feb 19 17:55:57 dmart: didnt get anything from last 5 minuts Feb 19 17:55:59 different version, other features etc Feb 19 17:56:50 ogra, isn't it the same compiler but compiled to be cross? Feb 19 17:56:51 asac: Are you still talking about mono? If so, not yet --- NFS (slow) Feb 19 17:57:06 rbelem, where do you get that compiler ? Feb 19 17:57:22 we dont offer a cross build of our gcc 4.4.3 Feb 19 17:57:58 dmart: just notified you so you can repost if you said something Feb 19 17:58:13 OK. still waiting I'm afraid Feb 19 17:59:17 rbelem: You could try using the Ubuntu gcc source and messing with the configure args. But that's only feasible if you've already build cross-compilers (there are many pitfalls and I've not done it myself recently) Feb 19 17:59:27 ogra, it is just an assumption Feb 19 17:59:49 well, its a techincal impossibility atm :) Feb 19 17:59:54 dmart, it would be nice Feb 19 18:00:06 right Feb 19 18:00:08 rbelem: Even if the same compiler, but compiled differently, one can encounter ABI skew, which makes things segfault for unexpected reasons. It's essential to compile everything in the same way. Feb 19 18:00:24 if someone would build a cross compiler from the same source you would be on the safe side Feb 19 18:00:34 *safer Feb 19 18:00:43 Since we compile everything native, anything that needs to link to it should also be compiled natively. Feb 19 18:02:01 let me check a cross compiler package contents Feb 19 18:02:46 rbelem: what are you trying to build specifically? Feb 19 18:03:59 NCommander, nothing specific. But i'm planning to build kde stuff Feb 19 18:04:11 Well, there should be no ABI skew in principle between cross and native compilers build from the same compiler source. But native/cross compatibility is not well tested--- most people use just one of the other, and there have been discrepancies in the past. Feb 19 18:04:22 rbelem: you *really* don't want to cross-compile KDE unless you love torture :-) Feb 19 18:04:30 eheheh Feb 19 18:04:41 To accelerate local package hacking, a cross compiler + scratchbox could be useful. But this is no good for the Ubuntu archive. Feb 19 18:04:49 CMake supports cross compiling, but its really really different from auto**** and kinda wonky Feb 19 18:04:50 the dependency cahin will be fun :) Feb 19 18:04:54 *chain Feb 19 18:05:01 dmart: indeed. We've made some progress improvmenting qemu-linux-user Feb 19 18:05:30 NCommander, none WRT speed though Feb 19 18:05:37 dmart: i think it might speed things up if you are joining #monodev on irc.gimp.net Feb 19 18:05:45 and i doubt you can speed it up Feb 19 18:05:45 dmart, i can do almost the same thing with qemu-arm-static Feb 19 18:06:02 dmart: the guy that knows all this is currently there it seems ;) Feb 19 18:06:32 dmart, to remove the "almost" i need the cross toolchain Feb 19 18:06:36 ogra: with some cross-compiler hooks, you can offload compiling to native; I played around with it on m68k Feb 19 18:06:36 :-) Feb 19 18:06:50 Its fairly stable as a buildd actually. Feb 19 18:06:58 rbelem: dmart There's also lots of packages that have assumptions in the build systems that make them unsuitable for cross-compilation which would need to be sorted. Feb 19 18:07:02 NCommander, you mean that scary hack suse is using in OBS ? Feb 19 18:07:05 (in that case, there was no QEMU, but I had hacked up distcc to do the offloading) Feb 19 18:07:13 ah Feb 19 18:07:26 persia, it is transparent if you use icecc Feb 19 18:07:52 persia, the cross will be in other machine Feb 19 18:07:59 ogra: I remember pitching the idea at UDS jaunty, but we decided that native compiling was just easier Feb 19 18:08:08 rbelem, he talks about hardcoded stuff in packages etc Feb 19 18:08:21 NCommander, the OBS idea ? Feb 19 18:08:29 thats a horrid hack Feb 19 18:08:42 ogra: using cross-compilers via distcc to speed up compilation Feb 19 18:08:45 ogra, which kind of stuff? Feb 19 18:08:57 dmart: so we need to adjust all ARM_DEF defines vargaz said Feb 19 18:09:04 rbelem, injecting x86 libc into the amrel chroots Feb 19 18:09:17 dmart: with #ifdef thumb Feb 19 18:09:26 if we go the full jit way Feb 19 18:10:07 ogra, i didn't get. do you have an example? Feb 19 18:10:09 :-) Feb 19 18:10:23 NCommander, i would support using distcc across a bunch of machines using qemu-arm-static ;) Feb 19 18:10:24 dmart: is it usually just the OPTAG that needs to be adjusted? Feb 19 18:10:54 like ARM_MUL_TAG Feb 19 18:10:59 or the full ARM_DEF_MUL_COND ? Feb 19 18:11:08 You cannot generate Thumb code from an ARM JIT implementation without significant work, because a lot of assumptions break down. Feb 19 18:11:32 they use BX at least they told me Feb 19 18:11:43 but yeah Feb 19 18:11:45 ogra, "Now based on GCC 4.4.1!" - http://www.codesourcery.com/sgpp/lite/arm Feb 19 18:11:54 rbelem, they inject the x86 libc into an arm chroot and use the x86 gcc in there, what comes out is arm code like its been cross compiled but the env it is built in is arm, that speeds up and solves the dependency issues Feb 19 18:12:05 rbelem, right, we use 4.4.3 Feb 19 18:12:15 :-( Feb 19 18:12:18 asac: I haven't looked in detail yet Feb 19 18:12:34 dmart: sure so i guess too much work ;) ... Feb 19 18:12:34 19:09 < vargaz> thumb2 support is only required on cpu-s without the arm classic instruction set, which are rare. Feb 19 18:12:49 dmart: ^^ Feb 19 18:12:58 heh Feb 19 18:13:06 or is he just saying that -marm is ok? Feb 19 18:13:14 so we should revert the archive ... Feb 19 18:13:55 asac: If they have the interworking correct, then that statement is true. There is no special reason to convert a JIT from Thumb to ARM unless it is the only way to resolve interworking issues. Feb 19 18:14:15 ok Feb 19 18:14:26 he claims there are thumb-2 only CPUs out there ;) Feb 19 18:14:28 19:13 <@kangaroo> someone makes thumb-2 only cpus? Feb 19 18:14:42 ah ok Feb 19 18:14:43 19:13 < vargaz> yes. Feb 19 18:14:43 19:13 < vargaz> there is the cortex-m series or something, which are micro-controllers. Feb 19 18:14:55 i guess we are not ready for that ; Feb 19 18:14:56 ) Feb 19 18:15:37 The ARMv7-M profile does not have the ARM instruction set. Cortex-M* profiles implement this. These are intended for microcontrollers and don't have an MMU etc., so this is uClinux territory. Feb 19 18:15:57 yeah ... was just kidding Feb 19 18:16:01 ogra, yeah! :-( When will them will launch 4.4.3? Feb 19 18:16:08 no idea Feb 19 18:16:39 dmart: anything you would like me to ask now that the right folks for mono seem to be available? Feb 19 18:16:52 asac, seems the livebuild doesnt get forward and lamont it in the air :/ Feb 19 18:17:06 ogra: sigh Feb 19 18:17:13 ogra: single point of failure is just bad Feb 19 18:17:13 yeah Feb 19 18:17:26 is there someone in the pipeline? Feb 19 18:17:26 single lifevfs builder too :( Feb 19 18:17:27 ;) Feb 19 18:17:34 i pinged in #is Feb 19 18:17:49 asac: Sounds like ARM/Thumb interworking in the mono JIT should be discussed with vargaz? If he can explain why it works, we're probably fine. If he doesn't understand the question, we have some work to do ;) (but it sounds like he has thought about it...) Feb 19 18:17:50 ogra, do you think it is possible for lucid+1? Feb 19 18:18:33 dmart: see pmsg Feb 19 18:18:47 rbelem, i dont think we'll ever support it because you cant be sure the cross built stuff is really identical to a native build ... and i suspect codesourcery might always be behind in versions Feb 19 18:19:55 rbelem: native build doesn't take *that* much longer. IF you want it really fast, run distcc on a bunch of ARM hardware. Feb 19 18:20:25 asac, seems its still running, just not spitting out logs atm Feb 19 18:20:37 persia, i just have two arm devices :-( Feb 19 18:21:01 Yeah, well. That is still a problem for most of us :) Feb 19 18:22:26 persia, ogra suggested to run icecc inside a chroot with qemu-arm-static as an alternative Feb 19 18:22:37 asac, ah, there just popped up some logs for dove ;) Feb 19 18:23:08 seems to run fine ... Feb 19 18:23:20 persia: you can always run cross distcc Feb 19 18:23:25 rbelem: Sure. ARM boxes can be real or emulated :) Feb 19 18:23:28 i dont get why dove was built before imx51 though ... i gave the command in a different order :/ Feb 19 18:23:58 armin76: I don't trust the reliability of mixing that with native, give that it's not well tested and there have been issues in the past with alignment, etc. Feb 19 18:24:21 armin76: If it's all cross or all native, no issues. Since the rest of the archive is native... Feb 19 18:24:26 always worked for me :) Feb 19 18:24:41 * ogra goes afk and will check the builds later tonight again Feb 19 18:24:55 armin76, you mix cross and native stuff ? Feb 19 18:25:33 ogra: for building my stuff yes Feb 19 18:25:39 with a toolcahin and compiler on the edge and highly optimized default flags ? Feb 19 18:25:40 19:24 <@kangaroo> yes Feb 19 18:25:40 19:24 <@kangaroo> we use interworking all the time Feb 19 18:25:40 19:24 <@kangaroo> if its not, its a bug and we'll fix it Feb 19 18:25:41 19:24 <@kangaroo> we have to support it to pinvoke thumb libs from C# Feb 19 18:25:44 dmart: ^^ Feb 19 18:26:28 Probably it works then... I'll try and chat with him on Monday and check. Feb 19 18:26:29 ogra: no, i use what we call stable, which is gcc-4.3.4,glibc-2.10,binutils-2.19 atm Feb 19 18:27:02 asac: Mind you I can't figure out where the arm-codegen stuff is actually used from. Feb 19 18:27:27 dmart: in in mono/mini/arm* Feb 19 18:27:29 i think Feb 19 18:27:34 at least thast how i found the codegen parts ;) Feb 19 18:27:48 (those filse have the mov matches ... which turned out to be just comments before they use those macros) Feb 19 18:27:51 anyway ... -> afk Feb 19 18:27:57 Oh yes, I see (the first function I searched for wan't used...) Feb 19 18:28:19 ls mono/mini/mini-arm* Feb 19 18:28:19 mono/mini/mini-arm.c mono/mini/mini-arm.h Feb 19 18:29:40 * rbelem goes check for toolchains Feb 19 18:46:12 persia: sudo works for me in latest qemu-arm-static Feb 19 18:46:20 ojn : Still about? Feb 19 18:46:50 ojn : I'm downloading your installer and karmic image .. hopefully this will all work sans serial, since I don't have a serial cable for this pegatron Feb 19 18:49:30 Martyn: not mine, but genesi's. Yeah, I got a hold of one of the debug boards they have that brings out serial and jtag. I'd been dead in the water with out. Feb 19 18:52:09 Without the serial and jtag, do I have a hope in heck of getting this installer SD and image to work? Feb 19 18:54:07 Martyn: on a pegatron imx51 board? Feb 19 18:54:15 yep Feb 19 18:54:23 Probably not. Pegatron uses Lange which is a variant of babbage Feb 19 18:54:26 the little white one that looks like a genesi Feb 19 18:54:26 Kernel is incompatible Feb 19 18:54:29 Martyn: You can borrow my debug board if you want Feb 19 18:54:47 Hmm .. where can I find the original system image for the white Lange based unit? Feb 19 18:55:05 Martyn: dmart kept promising one but I never saw one. Feb 19 18:55:12 because what happened is that someone in the company decided to try upgrading from 9.04 to 9.10 using the system updater Feb 19 18:55:19 and let me tell you, it's in a sorry state :) Kernel panic :) Feb 19 18:56:18 lool: works for me too. Nice work! Feb 19 18:56:56 Martyn: yes it will Feb 19 18:57:20 armin76 : Wait, so the genesi installer _will_ work on this white pegatron? Feb 19 18:57:47 Martyn: you can always change the kernel :) Feb 19 18:58:07 Martyn: ask neko on #efika, but i guess so Feb 19 18:58:14 Martyn: That's what I used on mine Feb 19 18:58:18 Martyn: on a separate SD card Feb 19 18:59:05 i believe it still has the nice bug that once you reboot it, ssh won't come up again Feb 19 18:59:32 ojn : So - sequence of events is -- installer-sd.img onto an SD card .. change DIP to 0001 .. power up system Feb 19 18:59:49 without a serial cable, will there be any external indication that the process is complete? Feb 19 18:59:58 Martyn: correct. Yes, framebuffer should come up Feb 19 19:00:04 it tries to get a ip from dhcp Feb 19 19:00:33 Martyn: the efika boots from sd before internal 'ssd' without touching the DIP Feb 19 19:00:38 then copy the karmic-minimal tar to a SD card? Feb 19 19:01:09 Martyn: there's a dd image Feb 19 19:01:38 armin76: so installer-sd.img is sufficient on it's own then... Feb 19 19:01:50 i believe so Feb 19 19:02:11 allright .. I'll be right back then. Lets give this a spin Feb 19 19:09:02 I flipped the DIP to 0001, light went blue for a few moments, then power light went green. No framebuffer came up Feb 19 19:09:29 how long should I leave it be? What is the expected time before the framebuffer should come up if this was at all successful? Feb 19 19:09:51 armin76: I used the image from http://www.powerdeveloper.org/platforms/efikamx/linux Feb 19 19:10:43 heh http://infocenter.arm.com ... doesnt work on chromium for me Feb 19 19:10:48 Martyn: there is some problems with the display, i don't believe that image has them fixed Feb 19 19:11:01 its from last year, so definitely it doesn't Feb 19 19:11:21 Martyn: check if it looks for dhcp requests, then you could access it through ssh Feb 19 19:11:35 armin76: Is there an /original/ system image available? The 9.04 image Pegatron used? Feb 19 19:11:49 Frankly, I'd be happy just getting this unit back to factory-working condition Feb 19 19:12:00 i don't have it Feb 19 19:12:44 nor its hosted there afaik Feb 19 19:13:02 Grrr.. how the heck can I fix this thing then. Feb 19 19:13:17 put gentoo on it *g* Feb 19 19:13:19 It's all fine for them to give them away, but an original system image would be nice. Feb 19 19:13:32 armin76: not the point :) I'd like to get it just working again. Feb 19 19:13:41 okay, I'll look for a DHCP request .. so far none show up Feb 19 19:13:54 once the SD card installer has finished, is there any exernal indication? Feb 19 19:13:59 Martyn: maybe you could try replacing the kernel in that image with the one you already had Feb 19 19:16:37 that's the problem .. without serial, there's no way for me to get to the uboot Feb 19 19:16:47 so I need some sort of flash-recovery image Feb 19 19:17:00 Hmm .. no evidence of DHCP activity Feb 19 19:17:10 I'll flp the DIP switches back to the original state and reboot Feb 19 19:17:14 see if anything changes Feb 19 19:17:18 oh, thought the original image was on another sd card Feb 19 19:17:33 no. They just toasted the box by attempting an ubuntu upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10 Feb 19 19:17:59 ok, then definitely you're screwed if you aren't able to boot the kernel Feb 19 19:18:04 blame ubuntu for breaking stuff :P Feb 19 19:18:53 (i just removed the thing about pinging me wrt anyone going to mwc) Feb 19 19:22:22 So what is this thing called exactly? Babbage 2? Feb 19 19:22:38 lange 5.1 i believe Feb 19 19:22:42 thats what uboot says Feb 19 19:22:42 I'm obviously going to have to either talk to Pegatron or Freescale about getting a recovery system image Feb 19 19:23:05 I believe it's sufficiently different from the babbages that the babbage kernel doesn't work (but base this entirely on hearsay) Feb 19 19:24:41 Martyn: canonical has lange boards as buildd's, maybe they could help you Feb 19 19:28:59 Martyn: just a question, can't you access uboot from video output? Feb 19 19:29:19 (haven't plugged my efika, no hdmi monitor) Feb 19 20:00:08 * lool is a bit pissed off that bzr needs more than 200 MB of RAM to checkout d-i Feb 19 20:39:21 armin76: Nope, can't access uboot from video Feb 19 20:39:28 armin76: uboot doesn't seem to have framebuffer Feb 19 20:39:56 ok. thanks :) Feb 19 21:01:06 Hello Feb 19 21:01:49 I come from an Openembedded background, but as a user of Ubuntu I'm increasingly interested in Debian/Arm and Ubuntu/Arm Feb 19 21:02:07 I'll have a few dumb questions if you don't mind Feb 19 21:02:32 Why are karmic and lucid only available for armv6 and armv7 respectively? Feb 19 21:03:05 I have a Sharp Zaurus spitz, that is armv5te and I would like to see if I can't get some kind of Ubuntu running on it Feb 19 21:07:10 Laibsch: We build natively and we don't have enough hardware or manpower to build and qa multiple flavours Feb 19 21:08:30 * lool & Feb 19 21:08:31 lool: Hi Feb 19 21:08:43 Nice to see you again Feb 19 21:08:51 Hey Feb 19 21:08:56 What do you mean "/me &" Feb 19 21:09:01 I take that as "me too" Feb 19 21:09:09 You have a spitz as well? Feb 19 21:09:17 I mean I'm putting myself in the background Feb 19 21:09:21 '&' as in backgrounding Feb 19 21:09:22 As in going to sleep Feb 19 21:09:26 I see Feb 19 21:09:27 good night Feb 19 21:09:33 you too Feb 19 21:09:38 Just five more minutes? Feb 19 21:10:18 lool: I understand your question that if more people with more hardware where trying things out there is nothing in the way of relaxing armv7 to armv5te, for example? Feb 19 21:10:22 Correct? Feb 19 21:11:41 * Laibsch REALLY hopes that assumption is correct Feb 19 21:12:31 Laibsch: No, the armv7 + thumb was pretty much a -requirement- for lucid Feb 19 21:12:44 :-( Feb 19 21:12:45 armv5 support is dropped Feb 19 21:12:47 d'oh Feb 19 21:12:55 Can you explain why? Feb 19 21:13:03 thumb2ee support Feb 19 21:13:04 Laibsch: We want v7 + thumb2 in any case due to performance benefits on the platforms we mainly target Feb 19 21:13:24 It's a parallel set of reasons to the reasons that real i386 isn't supported by the i386 flavour anymore. Feb 19 21:13:25 so even armv6 is dropped Feb 19 21:13:52 Basically, newer code runs faster on newer chips. As there aren't a lot of people who run Ubuntu ARM right now, the baseline has been set high. Feb 19 21:13:58 I have a Freerunner that I don't use for anything else Feb 19 21:14:03 This *should* reduce complaints about insufficient optimisation in the future. Feb 19 21:14:11 So I guss that will have to become the test target, then Feb 19 21:14:19 I thought the freerunner didn't even support ARMv4 fully. Feb 19 21:14:27 Oh no! Feb 19 21:14:40 Well, I think I'll give it a try nonetheless Feb 19 21:14:49 and don't expect anything really working Feb 19 21:16:05 Well, if all else fails, at least Debian seems to run on the Freerunner Feb 19 21:16:38 Since new cheap platforms are now mostly v7 (beagleboard, etc) this shouldn't be a huge problem Feb 19 21:17:05 we'll see more platforms based on the omap3xxx omap4xxx armada smooth-stone, etc... Feb 19 21:17:17 There's even stuff in nice consumer plastic boxes (like the Efika MX and Netwalker) Feb 19 21:17:44 true Feb 19 21:18:10 *curses that his Pegatron i.mx51 board isn't as easy to reflash as the Efika MX* Feb 19 21:18:56 I mean, I --thought-- the hardware would be identical Feb 19 21:19:38 The way ubuntu-arm works is to compile natively or pull packages from the repo, right? Feb 19 21:19:49 Openembedded used cross-compilation Feb 19 21:20:22 Martyn: There's something special about those boards. The Netwalker is similarly trivial to reflash. Feb 19 21:21:00 Laibsch: Indeed. Full native compilation. This will become less painful when the rumoured >1GHz >1GB devices become easily available. Feb 19 21:21:01 persia : *nod* Driving me up the wall though ... Feb 19 21:21:13 persia: I'm --working-- on it as hard as I can. -lol- Feb 19 21:21:22 It's not that easy to tape out a chip, yanno? Feb 19 21:21:35 Martyn: given the time, you're probably stuck until Sunday night, but I think you need to get support from Pegatron directly for those. Feb 19 21:21:46 Or at least I haven't heard of a sufficient release that normal folk can get them. Feb 19 21:22:24 Martyn: Understood. I'm looking forward to new toys, although I'm hoping you can fit it in a smaller box. Something the size of a Mac Mini would be a perfect addition to my desktop :) Feb 19 21:23:13 persia : We can fit into a 5cm x 5cm board :) Feb 19 21:23:23 http://unstable.buildd.net/buildd/armel_Failed.html nice, Debian is even building opie! Feb 19 21:23:31 With all the power you showed at UDS? Feb 19 21:24:29 hm, seems to be something else from what I was expecting Feb 19 21:26:14 persia : more performance, less power Feb 19 21:26:29 persia: We're probably now going to be able to clock up to 1.6, maybe 1.8GHz Feb 19 21:27:50 Oh, excellent. And I presume that someone is going to package that into a set-top or monitor-back or similar form-factor? Feb 19 21:28:03 * persia has a weakness for plastic cases Feb 19 21:46:26 Are you guys intensively using icecc or distcc or is all compilation really done on arm devices? Feb 19 21:53:17 compilation is done natively Feb 19 21:53:57 persia : It's an SoC for anyone to package, but I believe the majority of them are going to be stuffed into high-density clusters in a blade, 1U, 6U or whole rack chassis Feb 19 21:54:11 perisa : 30 to a board or some such Feb 19 22:09:30 Martyn: Yeah, I suspect you're right. Same issues I have getting a Sparc: my use case is the extreme minority. Feb 19 22:10:18 persia : What I /can/ guarantee is that we're going to produce a ton of development boards Feb 19 22:10:24 with at least TWO chips each Feb 19 22:10:30 so you can practice making little clusters Feb 19 22:12:17 And I can probably stuff one in an old NAS or something. I'm just a bit lazy :) Feb 19 22:20:05 heh Feb 19 22:20:10 likely they will come in a little plastic box Feb 19 22:21:49 Oh, now I suspect I'll have to get one :) Feb 19 22:27:11 Martyn: yay, new toys :) Feb 19 22:31:43 and if I have anyting to do with it .. the system images will be to find, the wiki will be to edit, and god-damnit the thing will run ubuntu Feb 19 22:32:54 Martyn: If I can add to the wishlist: could you add a dual-booting bootloader, so that one can easily swap userspace/kernels with a low chance of bricking the unit? Feb 19 22:33:05 (or n-booting :) ) Feb 19 22:35:05 While I have issues getting new kernels for the Netwalker (I should go study kernel hacking), I know that I've used this a couple times to reinstall with great confidence. Feb 19 22:44:38 persia: he left already Feb 19 22:45:42 Yeah. That happened during my first response. Feb 19 22:45:53 But I figured I'd complete my thinking for the logs. Feb 19 22:46:01 :) Feb 19 22:46:06 Maybe someone else is also making cool devices that run Ubuntu and will also implement it :) Feb 19 22:47:26 It's really cool. If I hold down both mouse buttons, I boot off SD, and if I don't, I boot off SSD. Feb 19 22:47:35 makes it trivial to install different flavours, etc. Feb 19 22:47:58 Unfortunately, most of the cool flavours with which I want to play don't exist for Jaunty :( Feb 19 22:52:04 but at least you know you have an easy way to test it if you (or anyone else) feels like hacking it together :) Feb 19 22:54:00 Absolutely. Feb 19 22:54:11 And I'm sure someone will produce a newer kernel someday. Feb 19 22:54:33 But for some reason, nobody outside Japan seems to be buying these. I've only enountered one user from elsewhere. Feb 19 22:54:38 Maybe if/when device tree ever hits the streets Feb 19 22:54:43 So there's almost no English-language sites about it. Feb 19 22:54:58 GrueMaster1: When that happens, I get a kernel in just a few hours :) Feb 20 00:39:29 yess - nor-Booting please ;) or even better an open capable Bootmanager in nand/nor preinstalled - beeing afraid to damage the device can hold one from action **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 20 02:59:57 2010