**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 23 02:59:58 2010
Oct 23 08:34:34 <persia> DanaG: They are equivalently official.  Right now, powerpc is slightly more completely ported, gets slightly better user support, and is used by more flavours.  That said, more individual people are working on armel, so in the future you may be correct.
Oct 23 08:36:07 <ogra_ac> persia, well, i'd say one is more official than the other if you look at canonical backed support
Oct 23 08:37:16 <persia> ogra, Does canonical offer commercial support for armel currently?  I thought still not.
Oct 23 08:37:48 <persia> But I certainly see much more interest in ARM from Canonical than in PPC.
Oct 23 08:38:56 <ogra_ac> persia, not commercial support, but donated developer time
Oct 23 08:39:19 <persia> Indeed, hence "more individual people are working on armel"
Oct 23 08:39:38 <ogra_ac> and guaranteed upgrades for 18 months
Oct 23 08:39:52 <ogra_ac> in that it doesnt differ from x86
Oct 23 08:40:01 <ogra_ac> at least for main
Oct 23 16:59:24 <akshu1> hi what is the package name for boot time splash
Oct 23 17:00:01 <ogra_ac> plymouth
Oct 23 17:04:46 <akshu1> ogra_ac, this does moth i mean boot animation and logger ,is there any just usplashy type deb package for armel
Oct 23 17:06:24 <ogra_ac> i think there is still usplash in universe and debians splashy
Oct 23 17:09:56 <akshu1> ogra_ac, i am not sure which is stable and best for ubuntu armel
Oct 23 17:10:20 <akshu1> which will be good
Oct 23 17:18:13 <ogra_ac> plymouth
Oct 23 17:18:22 <ogra_ac> thats what we ship by default in the images
Oct 23 17:30:09 <Neko> plymouth works sometimes and sometimes not
Oct 23 17:30:27 <Neko> we're going to "port" psplash because it is simpler and doesn't require all that fancy stuff
Oct 23 17:30:32 <Neko> one day plymouth would be awesome
Oct 23 18:07:37 <ogra_ac> Neko, mountall requires plymouth
Oct 23 18:08:00 <ogra_ac> you need it in any case ... you dont need to use it as splash though
Oct 23 18:08:00 <Neko> yeah it is in the initrd here it just never starts
Oct 23 18:08:11 <Neko> i think the framebuffer is basically taking too long to init
Oct 23 18:08:17 <ogra_ac> then your users will end up with messed up filesystems
Oct 23 18:08:18 <Neko> we will keep it there
Oct 23 18:08:21 <Neko> just have psplash
Oct 23 18:08:31 <Neko> there is no way I am removing plymouth it's too much hassle
Oct 23 18:08:37 <ogra_ac> all user interaction of mountall fsck is done through plymouth
Oct 23 18:08:39 <Neko> but while it doesn't DO anything.... we need a splash
Oct 23 18:08:56 <Neko> plymouth does work but it never shows anything
Oct 23 18:09:24 <ogra_ac> so if you dont have it, your filesystems might corrupt themselves over time since you will never get successfull fscks
Oct 23 18:09:42 <ogra_ac> then your kernel is broken
Oct 23 18:09:56 <Neko> I know
Oct 23 18:09:59 <Neko> we are not dumping it
Oct 23 18:10:06 <Neko> we are just remediating the lack of framebuffer activity
Oct 23 18:10:17 <ogra_ac> make sure fbcon is running and all your frambuffer drivers are loaded early enough
Oct 23 18:10:28 <Neko> it DOES do that "press C to continue or S to recover" stuff but over serial terminal
Oct 23 18:10:37 <ogra_ac> ah
Oct 23 18:10:44 <Neko> framebuffer is built-in and fbcon is built-in
Oct 23 18:10:45 <ogra_ac> well, then your kernel cmdline is messed up
Oct 23 18:11:00 <Neko> root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 quiet splash
Oct 23 18:11:01 <Neko> ?
Oct 23 18:11:03 <ogra_ac> dont put serial stuff on it
Oct 23 18:11:15 <Neko> oh the serial stuff
Oct 23 18:11:16 <Neko> hmm okay
Oct 23 18:11:22 <Neko> noted.
Oct 23 18:11:53 <ogra_ac> if users really need that they are surely clever enough to edit the bootloader options in a serial terminal
Oct 23 18:11:54 <Neko> you think this is why plymouth doesn't start?
Oct 23 18:12:09 <ogra_ac> i know thats the reason why plymouth doesnt start :)
Oct 23 18:12:12 <Neko> console is not a framebuffer at the point it loads, therefore?
Oct 23 18:12:13 <Neko> :D
Oct 23 18:12:17 <Neko> you're amazing
Oct 23 18:12:30 <Neko> it worked
Oct 23 18:12:31 <Neko> :D
Oct 23 18:12:34 <ogra_ac> thats the reason why the ubuntu images dont have serial consoles enabled by default
Oct 23 18:12:36 <Neko> let's try it 100 more times and make sure
Oct 23 18:13:22 * ogra_ac wishes he could use an ubuntu initrd with plymouth on his ac100 here 
Oct 23 18:14:06 <ogra_ac> silly fastboot hardcodes the partitioning scheme ... boot partition is 8M big ... no space for an initrd
Oct 23 18:14:29 <Neko> the question is really then... where does plymouth detect console and would it be better for it to look more aggressively for a non-serial console
Oct 23 18:14:46 <ogra_ac> it looks at the kernel cmdline
Oct 23 18:15:06 <Neko> so console=ttymxc0,115200,8n1 console=tty1
Oct 23 18:15:07 <ogra_ac> as soon as it detects console=tty[A-Z] it drops out of the splash
Oct 23 18:15:13 <Neko> yerg
Oct 23 18:15:16 <Neko> but there are two
Oct 23 18:15:21 <ogra_ac> doesnt matter
Oct 23 18:15:26 <ogra_ac> there is one of them serial
Oct 23 18:15:34 <ogra_ac> it recognizes that
Oct 23 18:16:57 <ogra_ac> there is a longstanding LP bug and an upstream bug about that
Oct 23 18:17:09 <ogra_ac> no solution though
Oct 23 18:17:10 <Neko> excellent
Oct 23 18:17:19 <Neko> something to read though isn't it
Oct 23 18:17:34 <Neko> maybe we will fix it
Oct 23 18:17:50 <ogra_ac> heh, enjoy ;)
Oct 23 18:18:03 <ogra_ac> happy upstream discussing
Oct 23 18:21:33 <Neko> forget discussion
Oct 23 18:21:38 <Neko> why don't we just fix it and push a patch
Oct 23 18:21:45 <Neko> they can discuss it all they like once we've shipped it
Oct 23 18:21:54 <ogra_ac> sure, but it wont be accepted
Oct 23 18:22:06 <Neko> that is their mistake :D
Oct 23 18:22:26 <ogra_ac> since upstream opinion is that if you use a serial console you definitely dont want a splash
Oct 23 18:23:09 <armin76> bah, splashes
Oct 23 18:24:58 <Neko> upstream is amd64, real life is embedded systems where when the thing locks up you need serial :D
Oct 23 18:25:19 <ogra_ac> huh ?
Oct 23 18:25:30 <Neko> if you don't watch splash and you have serial... why not add "nosplash"
Oct 23 18:25:32 <ogra_ac> you only need serail for bootloaders
Oct 23 18:25:43 <Neko> and accessing terminals when your USB fails
Oct 23 18:25:51 <Neko> or network is down for some reason
Oct 23 18:25:57 <ogra_ac> after the kernel is up there is no difference in architectures
Oct 23 18:26:01 <Neko> there are plenty of rescue scenario :D
Oct 23 18:26:38 <ogra_ac> i agree that as developer you might want serial, for endusers its the most useless thing ever
Oct 23 18:26:48 <Neko> here's another
Oct 23 18:27:08 <Neko> you have Xen. You have it virtualized as a desktop. But Xen wants to have a serial terminal too for early boot messages...
Oct 23 18:27:11 <ogra_ac> (or would your motrher use a seria console to tinker with her laptop)
Oct 23 18:27:17 <Neko> I want to see a splash over my RDP
Oct 23 18:27:22 <ogra_ac> *mother
Oct 23 18:27:32 <Neko> no but Raquel and Bill might
Oct 23 18:27:41 <ogra_ac> why ?
Oct 23 18:27:52 <ogra_ac> they only do twitter and facebook
Oct 23 18:27:53 <Neko> they are not low level devs but they are interested and I got like 5 calls this morning about poking around in terminals
Oct 23 18:28:28 <Neko> any company with MBWA attitude :]
Oct 23 18:28:50 <ogra_ac> serial is a wart ... it shoud go away imho
Oct 23 18:29:10 <Neko> I would rather something like Android Debug stuff got standardized
Oct 23 18:29:13 <ogra_ac> good if you have unstable kernels you develop, but thats about it
Oct 23 18:29:17 <Neko> plug a USB cable in and hooray
Oct 23 18:29:23 <ogra_ac> nah
Oct 23 18:29:41 <ogra_ac> have framebuffer and input support in your bootloader ...
Oct 23 18:29:53 <Neko> we do :)
Oct 23 18:30:05 <Neko> but we're shipping U-Boot which sucks.
Oct 23 18:30:24 <ogra_ac> so i can reach the u-boot console without using a second computer ?
Oct 23 18:30:35 <Neko> no not at all.
Oct 23 18:30:38 <armin76> hi Martyn :)
Oct 23 18:30:39 <ogra_ac> see
Oct 23 18:30:43 <ogra_ac> thats what i mean
Oct 23 18:30:46 <Neko> "our" bootloader is not U-Boot though. we just don't ship it yet.
Oct 23 18:30:51 <Neko> MX53 is the target
Oct 23 18:30:54 <Martyn> hey there armin
Oct 23 18:31:02 * Martyn is in the last stages of packing for UDS
Oct 23 18:31:07 <ogra_ac> well, does your redboot give me that ?
Oct 23 18:31:10 <Neko> did you ever see Pegasos? it was PPC and had an OpenFirmware, grab any PC PCI or AGP graphics card, get a framebuffer
Oct 23 18:31:17 <Neko> USB input
Oct 23 18:31:17 <Martyn> They stuck the ARM LAMP optimization talk on Monday, damnit!
Oct 23 18:31:20 <Neko> play midi tunes..
Oct 23 18:31:40 <Neko> boot from ATA, USB..
Oct 23 18:31:54 <Neko> or TFTP over network. it's nice. but the new technology is not ready yet :D
Oct 23 18:32:07 <Neko> moving away from ppc gave us the chance to throw most of it away and do it properly
Oct 23 18:32:13 <Neko> (with a view on virtualization and so)
Oct 23 18:35:16 <Martyn> ogra : When are you arriving in Orlando?
Oct 23 18:35:48 <ogra_ac> tomorrow evening
Oct 23 18:36:27 <Martyn> Okay, about the same time then..  Rob, Bob and I get in ~6:30pm
Oct 23 18:36:38 <ogra_ac> same for me
Oct 23 18:36:53 <Martyn> We're coming in via JetBlue .. share a cab?
Oct 23 18:36:53 <Neko> hmm anyone in Linaro here?
Oct 23 18:37:06 <ogra_ac> i think we are already four
Oct 23 18:37:10 <Martyn> 'kay
Oct 23 18:37:14 <ogra_ac> Neko, go to #linaro
Oct 23 18:37:21 <Neko> I am in there
Oct 23 18:37:41 <ogra_ac> right, they are likely all in the air
Oct 23 18:37:59 <ogra_ac> or preparing for traveling or just arriving
Oct 23 18:38:04 <ogra_ac> bad time ...
Oct 23 18:38:24 <Neko> I will get Konstantinos to bring it upo
Oct 23 20:23:35 <devilhorns> ogra_ac, around ??
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 24 02:59:58 2010