**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 28 02:59:59 2012 Feb 28 03:20:54 oh how i wish i was that young Feb 28 03:25:16 steev_: still got your copy of Lion's ? :-) Feb 28 03:26:18 sorry, I don't know what that means. As someone who grew up in Detroit, any time someone mentions Lions, all I can think is football Feb 28 03:26:58 textbook from UNSW, first easy access to Unix source code Feb 28 03:28:57 ahh, i'm not *that* old :) Feb 28 03:32:45 Hum. I didn't think sys3 was much younger... Feb 28 03:33:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions%27_Commentary_on_UNIX_6th_Edition,_with_Source_Code Feb 28 03:34:12 Wow, that's listed as 1996 Feb 28 03:34:29 Ah, that's a reprint Feb 28 03:36:06 Research Unix V6 was 1975; Lions was 1976, ... System III was 1982, SysV was 1983. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_V Feb 28 06:18:07 surprisingly few crashes Feb 28 06:18:28 twb: ah, so lions was printed the year before i was born. i didn't get into computers til i was 5 :( Feb 28 12:26:44 janimo`, hmm, seems the camera doesnt work anymore in the latest precise image (led switches on, but it only takes black pics in the installer) Feb 28 12:27:09 ogra_, is this with yesterday's kernel upload? Feb 28 12:27:21 I know I had gst-properties work with the 1.2 kernel Feb 28 12:27:27 not sure I tried with 2.1 Feb 28 12:27:42 I hope webcam is not at odds with the bluetooth headset requirements Feb 28 12:27:53 not sure it made it onto the image yet ... i'll try to upgrade once the installer finished Feb 28 12:28:02 it shouldnt Feb 28 12:28:03 I only uploaded meta this morning Feb 28 12:28:09 so may not have made it , no idea Feb 28 12:28:19 ah, k, then its likely not in the img Feb 28 12:28:31 there is a rebuild running right now though Feb 28 12:28:37 that might pick it up Feb 28 12:29:43 could be a userland issue. I know at one point the ubiquity part worked but cheese did not Feb 28 12:30:03 right, i will test after the install is done Feb 28 12:30:18 its already removing packages Feb 28 12:46:24 janimo`, hmm, the cam works with gstreamer-properties Feb 28 12:46:36 so it must be an ubiquity thing Feb 28 12:46:42 ogra_, so ubiquity/oem cfg issue or bad timing Feb 28 12:46:56 or even fbdev Feb 28 12:47:24 ev or other working on ubiquity would know if anything changed recently in that area Feb 28 12:47:44 or maybe the logs even show some ENODEV type errors Feb 28 12:48:20 and really, is firefox that good already on arm? I still have chromium installed but do not use the ac100 much Feb 28 12:48:45 well, for me on armel FF is faster Feb 28 12:48:56 it starts faster and renders faster Feb 28 12:49:13 and i can easily open 20 tabs without ram issues Feb 28 12:49:33 geeez ! Feb 28 12:49:57 if chromium did not slow down that is indeed good news Feb 28 12:49:57 pulling out the SD while being in initrd made the kernel freak out Feb 28 12:55:49 hmm, NM misbehaves Feb 28 12:56:54 it worked fine during install, weird Feb 28 13:14:49 hmpf, i see firmware errors Feb 28 13:42:31 * ogra_ installs libO for a test Feb 28 14:31:10 ogra_, how's libo? I completely forgot to actually test the deb on armhf Feb 28 14:31:18 runs fine Feb 28 14:31:26 no probs with it at all :) Feb 28 14:31:47 * ogra_ found another issue though ... not libO related Feb 28 14:32:13 somehow ac100 ends up with a bunch of kde bits installed ... while all other arm images dont Feb 28 14:32:38 the only difference between the images are jasper vs ac100-tarball-installer ... but they have similar deps Feb 28 16:26:19 GrueMaster: well if I don't even have a power supply it's not going to work right? Feb 28 16:26:29 where do I buy a power supply? Feb 28 16:26:42 Do you have a USB Y cable? Feb 28 16:26:58 umm what's one of those? Feb 28 16:27:13 It doesn't take 3-4 amps to power on the board and run a desktop image. Feb 28 16:27:26 They are the cables that ship with external usb drives. Feb 28 16:28:23 GrueMaster: http://htc-linux.org/wiki/images/6/64/Usb-y-power-cable.jpg ? Feb 28 16:28:50 I've done some power measurements here, and under load running the lamp stack, the highest power load was 1.5A with drive. Feb 28 16:28:59 yes. Feb 28 16:29:07 That is the cable. Feb 28 16:29:33 umm what plugs in where with that? Feb 28 16:30:19 The two large plugs go to a pc or laptop or powered USB hub. The mini plug goes in the panda. Feb 28 16:31:07 that image shows two USB male plugs and one USB female, all large Feb 28 16:31:29 You should be able to get HDMI & USB keyboard/mouse. What you probably won't get is wifi, bluetooth, video acceleration, and addon board power. Feb 28 16:32:30 Woa, didn't see the other end. A USB Mini cable should plug off of that then. If you have that cable. Feb 28 16:34:36 GrueMaster: ok I have a cable which is usb male to usb mini male so that plugs into my laptop and the pandaboard Feb 28 16:34:48 and I even get a green LED turning on Feb 28 16:35:18 It needs to be a y cable. Not sure a single USB port will supply enough power. Feb 28 16:37:19 oh so it needs two usb male to plug into my laptop and a usb mini to plug into the panda? Feb 28 16:38:05 yes. Feb 28 16:38:28 GrueMaster: ok they'll go on the shopping list Feb 28 16:38:30 what else do I need? Feb 28 16:38:42 SD Card? what size? Feb 28 16:38:50 HDMI to VGA? Feb 28 16:39:01 SD card. 4G or better. Class 10 preferable. Feb 28 16:39:35 There is no HDMI to VGA. HDMI is digital, VGA is analog. You can get converters, but monitors are just as cheap. Feb 28 16:40:12 oh, so no easy way to get it to work with my vga monitor? Feb 28 16:40:51 Not that I know of. Feb 28 16:41:35 ok that puts a stopped in my plan Feb 28 16:41:47 I need to ask jason if I can expense an HDMI monitor then Feb 28 16:43:33 Does your monitor do DVI? Feb 28 16:44:55 Riddell: ^^^ Feb 28 16:45:04 no Feb 28 16:45:09 VGA only Feb 28 16:45:49 Time for a new monitor anyways then. But you can convert hdmi to dvi. Feb 28 16:46:14 DVI supports bot analog & digital signals. Feb 28 16:46:24 *both Feb 28 16:48:49 Bestbuy lists monitors for under $100 that have VGA/DVI that will work. I'm sure Amazon does too. Your local shops should also carry them. Feb 28 17:28:47 rsalveti: know anyone on the linaro samsung landing team? Feb 28 17:39:52 prpplague: not from top of my head, would need to check the team Feb 28 17:39:58 guess nobody is around at irc Feb 28 17:40:14 yea seems so Feb 28 17:40:22 but you can simply mail linaro-dev@lists.linaro.org if there's something you want the lt to read Feb 28 18:02:52 infinity: Can you ping me on #arm? Not sure if the connection is still up. Feb 28 18:03:48 GrueMaster: I would if you were there. Feb 28 18:04:21 Hmmm. Nothing here to indicate a dropped connection, except silence. Feb 28 18:04:44 Really hate that. Feb 28 18:05:40 Down with Quassel, up with irssi? :) Feb 28 18:58:58 What do you guys think are the benefits of running ubuntu's new idea of running ubuntu on android Feb 28 19:03:14 For phones that are designed for it, it makes an excellent platform for doing presentations and stuff. Feb 28 19:03:43 Lot more portable than a laptop or tablet. Feb 28 19:06:51 For example, I have this keyboard, and if I had that phone, I could go to a trade show (or any other forum) and do a presentation literally out of pocket (if the forum had a screen). Feb 28 19:06:59 http://benchmarkreviews.com/images/reviews/input_devices/VT2012/VisionTek-CandyBoard-Bluetooth-Keyboard.jpg Feb 28 19:11:43 it's a shame it's only for systems like that Motorola thing where it docks into the back of a laptop shell Feb 28 19:11:50 and that already happened, it's a product shipping already.. Feb 28 19:12:46 The demo I saw had a simple dock that had usb & HDMI out (plus charging capabilities). The doc was smaller than the phone. Feb 28 19:13:04 http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-Product-and-Services/Mobile+Phone+Accessories/Docking-Stations/Atrix-Laptop-Dock-US-EN Feb 28 19:13:11 it's a fucking lovely idea, shame basically nobody cares Feb 28 19:13:17 The laptop dock is just one example. Feb 28 19:14:12 http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-Product-and-Services/Mobile+Phone+Accessories/Docking-Stations/HD-Station-for-ATRIX2-US-EN Feb 28 19:14:25 This is what I'm talking about. Feb 28 19:16:59 again, I doubt anybody really cares about this kind of functionality.. part of the problem is having "full firefox" doesn't make much sense at that level, presentation software is going to suck somewhat, while you can do what they're doing (run something in a chroot in Android), it means you're going to lack all the integration from Android to phone except for "the sd card is linked in to the chroot so I can read the presentation on Ope Feb 28 19:16:59 nOffice as well as in the Android document reader".. if you wanted to do a presentation out of pocket a better idea would be to have proper presentation software for Android, unless your goal was to edit it at the last minute between puling it out of pocket and doing the presentation Feb 28 19:17:10 at which point you probably had your laptop with you anyway and you can tether it to your phone Feb 28 19:17:36 convergence only works if people don't have the things you're trying to converge already and rely on them Feb 28 19:18:17 plus: Apple doesn't need a "full Firefox, Linux OS" on their iPad or iPhone, and all told, Atrix stuff isn't any cheaper than either Apple product :) Feb 28 19:18:28 Oh really? Then what's the point of having a smart phone in the first place? Feb 28 19:19:03 certainly not to do work. Feb 28 19:19:04 Especially if you already have your laptop? Feb 28 19:19:57 I use it to browse email, occasionally check facebook, play WWF or Angry Birds, and it's very very handy for Skype Feb 28 19:20:08 it also has a camera Feb 28 19:20:13 and is an mp3 player Feb 28 19:20:25 All things you can just do on your laptop. Feb 28 19:20:36 what, take a family photo on my VAIO? Feb 28 19:20:48 or go running with it strapped to my back? it's 12lbs... Feb 28 19:20:57 But, can your laptop fit in your pocket for when you need to travel for a presentation? Feb 28 19:21:43 no but I tend to travel with a little more than a pair of underwear stuffed in my jacket pocket just in case. I have a bag for all this stuff Feb 28 19:21:58 The point is, not everyone will want this. hell, a lot of people don't even have cell phones, let alone smart phones. Feb 28 19:22:30 the sales of the lapdock and even the atrix dock have been slow at best... Feb 28 19:22:43 I do know of several people where this would make more sense than lugging a laptop, even a small netbook. Feb 28 19:22:49 I don't care what verizon says, having a tablet doesn't mean your 7 year old kid can open a lemonade business Feb 28 19:23:02 Again, early market, and not for everyone. Feb 28 19:23:36 tablet market has basically bottomed out already because it's not about having a tablet, but about having an iPad or a Kindle. If you're not one of those people don't look at you in the store. Feb 28 19:24:05 what makes people want those is iTunes or Amazon, it isn't running presentations at work. Feb 28 19:24:20 I remember an excellent quote from the guys that created the ascii art driver for quake 2 that applies here: If you have to ask why, this isn't for you. Feb 28 19:25:07 I know why, I also know why the number of people who want it doesn't make a market Feb 28 19:25:54 I wonder if Steve Jobs had this argument before coming out with the ipod or the iphone? Feb 28 19:26:10 You are essentially arguing chicken/egg theory. Feb 28 19:26:37 no, because Steve Jobs said "it has iTunes, it could be a sheet of glass with a smiley face painted in dog turd on it, but people would still buy it, so make it" Feb 28 19:27:19 and he was right.. that sheet of glass smeared in dog turd eclipses every other tablet on the market despite almost identical features, because they don't sell tablets, they sell iPads Feb 28 19:27:50 to people who already have a MacBook and an iPod. Feb 28 19:28:09 putting Ubuntu on it doesn't make it replace your laptop, it's just not the same thing. Feb 28 19:29:08 That's one point of view. Feb 28 19:29:47 But the same argument could be made about other products, like this:http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika Feb 28 19:29:48 it's even not the same thing if they come out with Windows Phone 8 and put Windows 8 ARM on it so you can dock it and use it like a real computer. It's just not what people want out of a phone, that level of convergence doesn't appeal to anyone. Feb 28 19:29:58 GrueMaster, yeah, we know Feb 28 19:30:12 netbooks are a fucking abysmal idea, it turns out. Feb 28 19:30:28 we got there fairly early and found nobody else could even make it work Feb 28 19:30:31 Only because Microsoft killed the market. Feb 28 19:30:31 not even Canonical Feb 28 19:30:36 with what? Feb 28 19:30:57 people don't buy Atom netbooks either, or they wouldn't be being refurbed and sold at half price everywhere. the number of returns is staggering. Feb 28 19:31:12 They killed the x86 netbook market. Feb 28 19:32:27 The hardware costs have such little return that manufacturers couldn't make money off of them. Then MS told them their specs were not adequate and made a set of requirements to run Windows. Feb 28 19:32:46 (which really sucks on these btw. I have one). Feb 28 19:32:51 I think Intel did more than Microsoft for that by making a chipset which had too high expectations of power consumption with very little in the way of performance Feb 28 19:32:58 I have 3 of the damn things. Feb 28 19:33:14 one of them bought specifically because it had *TWO* SD card slots, I use it for copying them and imaging Feb 28 19:33:36 Not sure on that. My Acer Aspire One has 4.5 hours of battery life under Ubuntu. Feb 28 19:33:57 (the Intel reference). Feb 28 19:34:12 mine too but it does have a 6-cell battery and weighs 4lbs Feb 28 19:34:58 they're not light enough, not fast enough, and at full price you may as well get a 15" Dell Inspiron Feb 28 19:35:02 Granted, it isn't as good as my AC100 in weight or battery life, but out of the box it performs better. Feb 28 19:35:51 I keep it because the size is right for me. I could have bought a new laptop this year, but for me, I didn't see the benefit. Feb 28 19:36:15 I tested that and basically figured it's down to really awesome graphics drivers on the Atom, and the actual hard disk instead of the SSD which is frankly not as good as it sounded Feb 28 19:36:29 I have a powerful desktop with easy remote access for heavy lifting, and I don't play games enough to justify anything else. Feb 28 19:36:37 yeah I have an xbox Feb 28 19:36:53 and I use my VAIO for compiling, on Ubuntu, in VMware (on Windows 7) Feb 28 19:37:29 and all the other things like writing docs, generating decent PDFs, Photoshop, managing the servers at work (exporting a VM is really cpu intensive apparently) Feb 28 19:37:38 I use windows in a VM to test win32-imagewriter and taxes. Nothing else. Feb 28 19:39:55 as far as I'm concerned any netbook that doesn't perform like a Core i3 and look like a MacBook Air 11" isn't going to go anywhere. Feb 28 19:40:47 end of the year that product may actually be something someone can actually make, but convincing them to use Linux or Android is a hard sell, I'm glad for Windows 8 since it might actually give us a viable market to hit Feb 28 19:41:01 Again, usage model. Feb 28 19:41:22 there's always been and always will be a market for nettops, which is great Feb 28 19:41:41 even if they're not on the desktop and just being used to back digital signage or some university project Feb 28 19:41:48 And cracking Microsofts monopoly is extremely difficult when thy don't play fair. Feb 28 19:42:56 MS don't so much have a monopoly so much as have the best tool for the job Feb 28 19:43:21 Erm, sure. Feb 28 19:43:40 I would agree that in certain respects they are a glistening, glittery poop in a field of less glittery, far stinkier poops. But if you are forced to buy a poop at least get the gold plated one. Feb 28 19:44:01 did anyone use ubuntu on lenovo k1? Feb 28 19:44:02 I used to own a computer business (before I even knew Linux). They are very manipulative of the market. Feb 28 19:44:02 the gold might be worth something :) Feb 28 19:45:04 eh.. it's not just Microsoft who do that, I can name a certain astronaut millionaire who doesn't play fair either Feb 28 19:45:29 NekoXP: They may or may not have the best tool for the job, but when you can't buy 99% of the PC hardware on the market without an OS, I call that a forced monopoly. Feb 28 19:45:50 not forced by Microsoft, though - forced by the market Feb 28 19:45:58 NekoXP: I'm not even saying I want Ubuntu preinstalled (I don't care), but I *must* buy a copy of Windows just to get the hardware I want. Feb 28 19:46:00 if you ship a laptop with no Windows on it, people send it back Feb 28 19:46:40 NekoXP: Not forced by MS is pretty much a lie. Vendors get lots of incentives to do it this way. Feb 28 19:46:44 given that the cost of Windows basically doesn't even factor in to the cost of your laptop given the licensing deals OEMs do on their hardware, you're not actually getting a bad deal, although they will "refund" you if you ask Feb 28 19:46:52 I think http://www.system76.com/ would argue that. Feb 28 19:46:54 that's called volume licensing, and it's not an unfair model Feb 28 19:46:58 "forced" is a strong word, perhaps, but nothing in financial markets is "forced" so much as "coerced". Feb 28 19:47:19 NekoXP: "volume licensing" shouldn't define what you do with all your hardware. Feb 28 19:47:32 no, what customers WANT is what defines what they do with it Feb 28 19:47:50 NekoXP: And "they will refund if you ask" is also a whole lot more effort than people claim it is (and often just plain not true). Feb 28 19:48:01 Microsoft use the fact that everyone WANTS windows, whether they know it or not (usually by the disappointment when it boots Fedora Core instead), will not buy a laptop that doesn't come with Windows or MacOS Feb 28 19:48:17 Customers want working systems. When given no options, they go with the only choice. Feb 28 19:49:12 Dell do ship Ubuntu, but those people who are gullible enough to be pulled into the fallacy of choice of operating system don't make up anything approaching a significant market Feb 28 19:49:18 NekoXP: So, your contention is that when purchasing from someone who lets you tailor a system online, offering a "No Operating System preinstalled" option would be against customers' wishes, because they might accidentally click that instead of the (presumably default) "Windows 7 64-bit Preinstalled"? Feb 28 19:49:20 Best Buy even has agreements with Microsoft to only sell Windows based systems. Microsoft allowed them to carry Apple only to not monopolize the market. Feb 28 19:50:01 infinity, no, I would say offering it by default with "No OS installed" would be against their wishes Feb 28 19:50:09 Don't preinstalled crapware companies also subsidize desktop computer prices? No OS == no crapware == no subsidy == more expensive desktop. Feb 28 19:50:24 NekoXP: I wasn't talking defaults, just options. You tell me that I don't actually want options. Feb 28 19:50:26 offering it with "Ubuntu Linux 12.04" by default would also not be the default option most people would pick when shopping for a laptop Feb 28 19:50:32 I'm all for options Feb 28 19:51:23 For someone that sells linux based systems, you don't make a very good convincing argument. Feb 28 19:51:33 you check the sales figures and see a hundred million Windows devices sold and 100,000 Ubuntu devices sold for the same product and you think.. that's 0.1% of the market, the default should be Windows Feb 28 19:51:33 rbasak: And yet, I'd still pay a tiny premium to know that none of my purchase price is going to a product (Windows) that I won't be using. Feb 28 19:51:35 we don't HAVE a choice Feb 28 19:52:09 Windows doesn't exist for the systems we make, but if it did, we'd sell the shit out of it Feb 28 19:52:12 NekoXP: Erm. Those numbers are meaningless, given that people don't have the choice to purchase most hardware without Windows. Feb 28 19:53:17 everyone has the choice, GrueMaster just showed a link for it, there was a court precedent allowing users to get a "refund" for the cost of Windows on their device if they didn't actually want it... Feb 28 19:53:20 infinity: yeah - I hate that the figures get skewed by Windows being mandatory in the purchase price. Feb 28 19:53:47 NekoXP: Have you ever tried to reclaim your Windows license cost? Feb 28 19:53:57 that doesn't change that the actual cost to the user for a "Windows license", that sticker on the back of the laptop, and the preinstallation of a partition taking up 10% of your disk space, actually costs the user absolutely nothing Feb 28 19:54:01 NekoXP: yes, but you also forget that Microsoft also manipulates the hardware market to only support Windows. Feb 28 19:54:06 infinity, yeah I did it twice Feb 28 19:54:08 NekoXP: I know people who've been in mail-and-phone back-and-forth for well over a year trying to get their silly 50 bucks back. Feb 28 19:54:18 Look at the nVidia Ompimus technology in the latest laptops. Feb 28 19:54:19 I got my $50 back twice Feb 28 19:54:32 NekoXP: Well, lucky you. Feb 28 19:54:36 *Optimus Feb 28 19:55:11 of course I used the money to update my Technet subscription so I can put Windows on anything I damn well like Feb 28 19:55:43 Look at the real history behind the x86-64 technology. Look at the history behind the NX bit. Tell me Microsoft doesn't manipulate the HW market. Feb 28 19:55:44 rbasak: I frankly, just dislike someone getting paid for a product they had nothing to do with (my PC running Linux), full stop. It's why I don't buy HTC phones either. Feb 28 19:56:33 infinity: i guess i know how you feel about software/hardware patents ;) Feb 28 19:56:45 fyi: I was in Intel processor validation for both of the above technologies. Feb 28 19:57:34 infinity: I have Motorola phones and a Nook color, largely because they are standing up to Microsoft's bullying. Feb 28 19:57:50 the way OEM licensing works is MS set a price per device for each copy of whatever MS software is sold with a device. OEM reports back to MS quarterly and says "we sold X devices" and OEM pays MS. What they don't do is tack a microsoft license to the BOM of every device, otherwise that division would be losing out on every device due to the cost of licensing. It gets handled elsewhere and in a different account. Feb 28 19:57:57 well it helps that google bought motorola mobile ;) Feb 28 19:58:00 (also because they are just very good products). Feb 28 19:58:08 it costs the people making Dells and selling Dells in Dell nothing to ship Windows, or ship nothing Feb 28 19:58:37 the same way you can go to a university and show your student ID and get a copy of Windows for free "as long as you use it for schoolwork". This didn't come as a $50 addition to your tuition fee. Feb 28 19:59:05 NekoXP: That same argument holds true to Ubuntu preinstalled Dells, but they are harder to find. Feb 28 19:59:13 NekoXP: It may cost "nothing" on the small scale of a few machines per million, it obviously costs something overall. Feb 28 19:59:16 impossible right now, I just tried it :D Feb 28 19:59:50 infinity, yes but it's not part of the price you pay for the hardware, they recoup that cost on sales of the hardware with the OS anyway with whatever margins they set to do so. Feb 28 19:59:55 NekoXP: Explaining away volume licensing in a way that makes it seem free is obviously not true. Feb 28 20:00:20 mmm koolaid Feb 28 20:00:21 NekoXP: Of course it's part of what I pay. They don't just manufacture the money out of thin air to pay the license. Feb 28 20:00:33 the objection to getting a refund for Windows on a Windows preinstalled laptop from OEMs was that it's basically free, you shouldn't be able to get $50 for something that didn't come in the BOM Feb 28 20:00:34 NekoXP: Did you know that at one point last decade, you couldn't even buy a hard drive without a Windows License attached to it? Feb 28 20:00:54 you mean the other way around right Feb 28 20:01:02 I remember buying several hard disks to get a copy of Windows Feb 28 20:01:04 No. Feb 28 20:01:04 NekoXP: It's factored into overall cost of all machines, like an insurance policy. That doesn't make the cost go away, it just makes it harder to break out without an applied maths degree. Feb 28 20:01:15 but I've never bought a hard drive and gotten a sticker with a windows key on it Feb 28 20:01:19 GrueMaster: now thats not true.. you could buy white box hard drives Feb 28 20:01:30 My local shop was told my their MS rep that for them to have an OEM license, they couldn't just sell blank drives. Feb 28 20:01:50 that's the MS sales rep talking out of his arse Feb 28 20:01:54 ^^ Feb 28 20:01:55 This was back in 2004-2005. Feb 28 20:02:19 Well, that is the kind of tactics they pull. Feb 28 20:02:25 and your local shop believed him and added a mysterious $20 to the cost of his drives right? Feb 28 20:02:42 he paid his $2 to MS for every drive and bumped the price.. he would have done it to make more money and given you that bullshit excuse :D Feb 28 20:02:48 better then apple imo.. at least microsoft trys to work in the ecosystem Feb 28 20:02:49 No, they fought back, but lost their oem status in the process. Feb 28 20:02:55 And the company went bust. Feb 28 20:03:32 (Then again i worked at ms, so im still a little brainwashed) Feb 28 20:04:05 The guy that owned that store now only sells cabling. One of his tech's now owns a shop of his own, but doesn't deal with MS directly. Feb 28 20:05:18 I only speak from personal experience or very direct knowledge of close friends. This is nothing I read or heard rumors about. Feb 28 20:06:15 imo ultimately the problem with microsoft is the nepitism. You get people with big ideas, without much cultural exposure to the industry they are trying to engage in. The typical engineer at ms isn't thinking how can I fuck the average joe. It's more like how can I change the world today. Sometimes it backfires. Feb 28 20:08:17 True. My best friend from school worked for MS for ~15 years before quiting. He was so burned out from the experience, he spent a year traveling remote areas of India & Tibet communing with nature. Feb 28 20:08:33 sounds about right Feb 28 20:08:39 And, yes, he is still a very close friend. Feb 28 20:09:31 you can't blame Windows the OS for racketeering on the part of the sales reps Feb 28 20:10:00 or the need for people to actually HAVE Windows "by default". Feb 28 20:10:13 you can because its a single organizational unit.. however the sales guys are assholes Feb 28 20:10:16 I don't blame the OS for anything. I blame the company behind it for strong arming the market. Feb 28 20:10:21 I know a lot of sales people, most of them are by profession slimy fuckers Feb 28 20:10:41 the company doesn't teach them to be like that.. they're like that because they're in sales Feb 28 20:11:19 and sales people, the aggressive ones who make all the commission, are the worst examples of humanity. because they can't code, don't have ideas, and have no other productive use in a technology company Feb 28 20:11:30 Sure. What ever you want to believe. Feb 28 20:11:38 So I have to ask, are you now a MS fan troll? Feb 28 20:11:55 lol Feb 28 20:12:35 I use Windows because it does the best job so far on the stuff I need to do, day to day. I have 3 windows boxes in the house and about 19 Linux boxes (and one FreeBSD :) Feb 28 20:12:44 not including VMs Feb 28 20:13:01 various architectures, distros.. Feb 28 20:13:26 The only Windows dedicated box I have does the one thing I need it to do. Keep my wife happy with her Big Fish games. Feb 28 20:13:40 two beagles, a panda, quickstart, mx6 sabrelite, more efikas than I can count, a ppc efika.. MPC8641D and MPC8610 Feb 28 20:13:43 And I don't touch it. Feb 28 20:13:49 pegasos I G3 and Pegasos II G4 Feb 28 20:13:54 they all do stuff. Feb 28 20:15:10 I think I out number you in running systems. Feb 28 20:15:18 At home. Feb 28 20:15:23 but my preferred text editor is Notepad++, I like WinSCP and PuTTY (actually I use KiTTY), AOL Instant Messenger for Google Talk, I use IE9 now and then, VPN access, Photoshop, Distiller, Fireworks, VMWare, XenCenter, .iTunes... Feb 28 20:15:36 maybe Feb 28 20:16:25 Every single thing you list there I can do on my Linux systems (except iTunes, I don't have any i* hw and don't want any). Feb 28 20:16:28 I think if I had access to a decent text editor and a GUI SCP client worth a damn I might use Windows less, but I've yet to actually find them Feb 28 20:16:38 So, you personally prefer a bunch of proprietary software. I'm not seeing how that makes Windows the best tool for everyone's job. Feb 28 20:17:03 (Also, a GUI SCP? Ick) Feb 28 20:17:15 But plenty of GUI FTP clients do SFTP, which is sane and reasonable. Feb 28 20:17:20 because a lot of people prefer a bunch of proprietary software. I don't know any print or layout guys who would love to use Linux because Photoshop and Quark don't run on Linux Feb 28 20:17:22 Yea, what's the point in that? Feb 28 20:17:39 GrueMaster, I don't spend my life in the commandline Feb 28 20:17:48 NekoXP: Yes, and they are how much of the market? Feb 28 20:18:16 I dunno, one for every editor and layout at every newspaper, 50 per department in every university with a digital print course... Feb 28 20:18:26 (Photoshop was my last holdout too, and then I got out of graphic arts and stopped caring) Feb 28 20:18:41 Apparently, we seem to have comparable tools in Linux. Piers Anthony is a highly known author that only uses Linux. Feb 28 20:18:48 magazines, independent publishers, little print shops like VistaPrint or so, independent print shops who do leaflets for the churchh and posters for gay club parties Feb 28 20:19:08 And, frankly, UNIX systems work better for almost everything ELSE I do. My Windows machine used to just be Photoshop, a web browser, and a stupid number of terminals to UNIX and Linux systems. Feb 28 20:19:12 So, goodbye middle man. Feb 28 20:19:57 photoshop worked fine under wine last time i checked Feb 28 20:20:27 It really boils down to use cases. Most of the functionality in Photoshop that people use on a regular basis have equivalent tools in Linux now. Feb 28 20:20:34 pbuckley: I gave up trying or caring when I just gave it up entirely and moved on to other projects. But yes, I hear it works well enough these days. Feb 28 20:20:41 you're kidding me. there is no equivalent to photoshop on Linux Feb 28 20:20:48 lol Feb 28 20:20:50 GrueMaster: If you're a heavy Photoshop user, it's hard to make that argument. Feb 28 20:21:09 NekoXP: yeh there is.. its called photoshop :P Feb 28 20:21:11 I never said equivalent on a feature basis. Feb 28 20:21:39 it needs to be equivalent on a feature basis. what you do in photoshop and could do in GIMP is not what most people buy Photoshop for. Feb 28 20:21:41 GrueMaster: I can make that argument for Illustrator versus Inkscape (Inkscape isn't nearly as feature-rich, but it works well, and gets the job done), but taking the GIMP over Photoshop is like punching yourself in the testicles to see if it will motivate you to not punch yourself in the testicles. Feb 28 20:21:46 this is a bit funny to me.. i remember the argument for mac os was BUT IT RUNS photoshop Feb 28 20:21:50 this is how i know linux is winning Feb 28 20:21:57 the same arguments are now being applied to windows Feb 28 20:22:14 I seem to remember Adobe almost.. maybe they even did.. make Photoshop run on Linux, but it was a kind of Caldega-like shim Feb 28 20:22:52 http://sixrevisions.com/graphics-design/10-excellent-open-source-and-free-alternatives-to-photoshop/ Feb 28 20:22:53 http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=17 Feb 28 20:23:00 there you go NekoXP photoshop in linux Feb 28 20:23:03 go delete your windows boxes Feb 28 20:23:16 yeah it means installing wine though and wah.. too much hassle Feb 28 20:23:21 apt-get install wine Feb 28 20:23:22 But, as infinity pointed out, photoshop fans will probably remain loyal. Feb 28 20:23:26 now you can cut and paste Feb 28 20:23:51 I swear all they need to do is actually give it a native port and MS could do no wrong by putting a real MS Office on there and use the rest in wine if need be, and the world would be a happier place Feb 28 20:23:54 And if you want shiny gui for wine, get PlaysonLinux. Feb 28 20:24:04 ms office runs under wine as well Feb 28 20:24:12 though libre office is better then ms office imo Feb 28 20:24:13 yep. Feb 28 20:24:34 I have trouble with libreoffice, as good as it is, and it is quite excellent, it has some trouble doing the stuff I do Feb 28 20:24:49 NekoXP: then go submit some patches Feb 28 20:24:51 every now and then it really mangles a document Feb 28 20:24:58 or file a bug report Feb 28 20:25:00 or I could use MS Office since I own it Feb 28 20:25:04 you could Feb 28 20:25:17 though technically with a technet subscription you dont Feb 28 20:25:25 I do go back every 6 months to see what changed, I do have LibreOffice installed on Windows.. Feb 28 20:25:25 the license agreement only covers development use of the product Feb 28 20:25:37 production usage of the product is explicitly forbidden under the eula agreement Feb 28 20:25:38 no, I do actually have a retail copy of MS Office Home & Student edition Feb 28 20:25:48 i didnt say you didnt Feb 28 20:25:55 i was just referring to your technet argument earlier Feb 28 20:26:35 the technet subscription really is just for putting windows on something to make sure it's not the hw that's broken, or trying something out I saw online like a new graphics driver that did this or that, or benchmarking citrix clients, or whatever Feb 28 20:26:56 you should read the eula you are agreeing to before giving anyone money Feb 28 20:27:07 it clearly defines the situations and methods the software can be applied Feb 28 20:27:09 I use technet for what technet is for :) Feb 28 20:27:20 and based on the conversation we have had i question how legitimate your use of the license is Feb 28 20:27:40 whats your technet id? ;) i need to send an email to a friend Feb 28 20:27:53 as I've used it for the past 14 years since I was part of the world's first rollout of Windows 2000 on a campus-wide scale outside of Microsoft.. it's for testing stuff out Feb 28 20:27:54 Fanboys always like giving their money to corporate charities. Feb 28 20:28:10 for the work I do every day I have real retail licenses for everything Feb 28 20:28:25 NekoXP: good for you, want a cookie? I was a developer on windows 7 and windows ce Feb 28 20:28:40 except Photoshop, actually that is a student edition, but it does say I can use it when I quit university for stuff I do after university Feb 28 20:28:46 Same here. Its called the GPL (and other open source licenses). Feb 28 20:29:00 I would love a cookie Feb 28 20:29:31 I think Tiffy left a bunch in my cupboard, she's so forgetful.. *goes to look* Feb 28 20:30:02 so... you use wine within a qemu chroot to run photoshop on a arm-device? :o Feb 28 20:30:16 wait that works? Feb 28 20:30:23 maybe Feb 28 20:30:26 << Feb 28 20:30:27 >> Feb 28 20:30:30 * pbuckley goes and looks Feb 28 20:30:39 mythos: +1 Feb 28 20:30:56 it might Feb 28 20:31:08 http://wiki.qemu.org/Main_Page Feb 28 20:31:09 neat Feb 28 20:31:16 never heard of qemu before Feb 28 20:31:18 qemu x86 emulation on arm really isn't what I'd call "photoshop capable" though Feb 28 20:31:46 Not on an efika at least. Feb 28 20:31:58 I was thinking on an omap5 or an MX6 Feb 28 20:32:00 hrmm Feb 28 20:32:07 kvm-ipxe? Feb 28 20:32:11 is qemu threaded? can I run an smp qemu? Feb 28 20:32:13 bridge utils Feb 28 20:32:15 interesting Feb 28 20:32:18 so it treats it like a vm? Feb 28 20:32:44 i thought virtual machines werent running on armv7's yet Feb 28 20:32:57 Not sure if qemu is threaded, but if the underlying system is UP only, any multitasking os will be slower. Feb 28 20:33:02 pbuckley, there are two ways to run it, one like a vm (VirtualBox uses a lot of QEMU code) and one where it emulates the other processor and passes syscalls to the native kernel Feb 28 20:33:46 you just register the binary format with binfmt_misc and let the interpreter/vm do the work, like installing java Feb 28 20:34:04 NekoXP: "uses a lot of qemu code"? You realise VBox is just a friendly GUI wrapper around qemu, right? Feb 28 20:34:31 infinity, yes, I was trying to be nice about it :D Feb 28 20:35:18 (For some value of the word "friendly"... VBox just seems to get in the way when I try to use it) Feb 28 20:35:25 but anyway, in the same way emulating an arm processor on a 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon with 32MB of L2 gives you the equivalent of a beagleboard with cpufreq on "conservative", just with a fast disk and networking worth a damn, x86 on ARM is... like being in back at school in the very early 90's Feb 28 20:36:37 I mean having what amounts to a Pentium 75 is awesome for some things, but I'm fairly sure Photoshop would not be a fun experience. That said, MS Office might actually be fairly usable! Feb 28 20:36:42 just stick to Office 200 Feb 28 20:36:45 2000 Feb 28 20:37:11 i used to run photoshop on a pentium 100 Feb 28 20:37:20 sheesh kids these days are so impatient Feb 28 20:37:35 if you can find a copy of Photoshop 5 lying around I'm sure it'd be perfectly usable Feb 28 20:37:57 * pbuckley is now convinced nekoxp has been trolling us Feb 28 20:38:10 only a tiny bit Feb 28 20:38:14 heh Feb 28 20:39:16 hmm... little offtopic... i tried a qemu-arm-vm and the framebuffer has only 1 mb max. videomemory. so the resolution is very limited. is there a workaround for that? Feb 28 20:39:18 btw as far as "virtualization" on ARM, you're right, nobody really did proper hypervisor stuff on ARM as the arch doesn't support it in the best way possible, not like you could do on x86 or even m68k.. but it's definitely possible to pull some tricks Feb 28 20:39:42 the new A15s have extensions to specifically solve that though and get better performance and security out of it Feb 28 20:39:55 I do remember running MacOS on my Amiga though that was some serious, serious fun Feb 28 20:41:46 playing with displaylink reminds me of how the graphics driver worked by trapping MMU accesses from the Mac side and using them to sparingly update the screen on the Amiga side. technology really hasn't moved on in the last 20 years. Feb 28 21:04:02 anyone have suggestions for extra logging that i can turn on to help trouble shoot why my pandaboards lock up after a couple hours of inactivity? Feb 28 21:04:15 its a hard lock.. no kernel panic no log details Feb 28 21:04:28 its happening on both of my boards Feb 28 21:04:53 Odd. I don't see that here on any of my 8 systems. Feb 28 21:05:54 Just checked my PandaES. Uptime 5 days (yea, I need to reflash the latest image on it today). Feb 28 21:05:57 how long do you leave them running? one of my boards is lasting about 28 hours on average.. the other one lasts about 3.. (28=desktop prebuilt, 3=server prebuilt, though this one has a lot more customizations) Feb 28 21:06:02 !! Feb 28 21:06:03 :( Feb 28 21:06:07 i want 5 day uptimes Feb 28 21:06:38 i guess i should probably start over with a fresh flash Feb 28 21:06:49 I haven't unplugged any of them in a long time. I do sometimes reboot/reimage, but other than that, they are always on. Feb 28 21:07:15 ubuntu@panda5:~$ uptime Feb 28 21:07:15 13:06:58 up 15 days, 4 min, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.05, 0.05 Feb 28 21:07:18 ?! Feb 28 21:07:44 That one is one I had running a lamp stack for a while. based on the load, I think it finished (finally). Feb 28 21:07:52 the desktop one is a really standard install.. and all it does is terminal and firefox Feb 28 21:08:17 Latest daily or older? Feb 28 21:08:28 i apt-get dist-upgrade every morning Feb 28 21:08:41 Hmm. Feb 28 21:09:26 pbuckley@panda:~$ sudo apt-get dist-upgrade Feb 28 21:09:27 [sudo] password for pbuckley: Feb 28 21:09:27 Reading package lists... Done Feb 28 21:09:27 Building dependency tree Feb 28 21:09:27 Reading state information... Done Feb 28 21:09:29 Calculating upgrade... Done Feb 28 21:09:31 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Feb 28 21:09:46 (yes i did a apt-get update before, and im using the standard sources.list Feb 28 21:09:47 ) Feb 28 21:10:05 maybes its the sd cards im using? Feb 28 21:10:18 sandisk ultra Feb 28 21:10:51 That is possible. Most of my systems are running from usb drives, although my ES is running from SD. Feb 28 21:11:05 you can boot off usb right? Feb 28 21:11:07 maybe i should try that Feb 28 21:11:47 I use SD as the boot device. Feb 28 21:11:53 hrm Feb 28 21:12:02 that sounds a lot like the setup my desktop uses Feb 28 21:12:12 You can boot from USB, but it requires board rework. Feb 28 21:13:04 so no secret loggin i can turn on to try and gather more details about the crash? Feb 28 21:13:17 You have to change the SYSBOOT configuration, which means moving some very small resistors. Feb 28 21:13:25 logdaemon? Feb 28 21:13:25 Not that I know of. Feb 28 21:14:00 any extra logging go to the serial console? Feb 28 21:14:15 You might change the boot parameters to turn off quiet and enable serial console. Not sure if you can do it post boot. Feb 28 21:15:04 what brand of sd cards are you using? Feb 28 21:15:09 cause that seems like an easy thing to test Feb 28 21:15:27 i meant over network ^^" Feb 28 21:15:42 I have Transcend in most of my systems, but I have tried other brands as well. Feb 28 21:16:02 a particular model of transcend or a mix? Feb 28 21:18:26 I have 4 8G Class 10's in my tower, and a 16G in my ES. Feb 28 21:19:06 I have an 8G Kingston Class 4 in another test system, and the other two are on a shelf so harder to see. Feb 28 21:19:57 Ah, one is a 4G Sandisk, the other is a 2G (it is running as a buildd with a USB drive for root). Feb 28 21:20:02 hrm Feb 28 21:20:14 well ill try the transcends anyways since i dont really have much else to go on Feb 28 21:20:22 And I have several SD cards not currently in use. Feb 28 21:20:32 plus it gives me an excuse to goto frys Feb 28 21:21:35 I got all of my Transcend cards from Amazon. The two "Class 10" cards I got from Fry's are my worst performers. Feb 28 21:22:47 i guess if i order now i can get them by tomorrow morning Feb 28 21:22:55 * pbuckley goes and looks Feb 28 21:23:13 speaking of amazon.com there has been a protest outside my office in sf for the last month Feb 28 21:23:21 bunch of people wearing pig masks Feb 28 21:23:24 a bit creepy Feb 28 21:24:17 Get it by Wednesday, Feb 29 if you order in the next 6 minutes and choose one-day shipping. Feb 28 21:24:20 6 minutes?! Feb 28 21:24:26 hurry up Feb 28 21:24:47 wow these transcend cards are cheap Feb 28 21:25:03 $10 bucks for an 8gb Feb 28 21:25:25 Wow. I think I paid $30. Feb 28 21:25:31 A year ago. Feb 28 21:25:41 the 32gb are $36 Feb 28 21:25:52 do you have a model number Feb 28 21:25:58 i see a couple different 8gb models Feb 28 21:26:03 (all are sdhc 10) Feb 28 21:27:00 Give me a sec. Systems are running so I can't just yank one out. Feb 28 21:27:40 TS8GSDHC10E TS8GSDHC10 Feb 28 21:27:42 nm i see two Feb 28 21:27:46 the other was a class 6 card Feb 28 21:30:59 Ah, there it is. I ordered TS8GSDHC10E . Feb 28 21:34:02 Hmm. According to Amazon, I also have 2 of TS8GSDHC10. Feb 28 21:35:15 Nice that I can go back and look at these invoices online. The other hardware purchases I made over the last few years are hard copy only. Feb 28 22:30:19 GrueMaster: cool.. thank you Feb 28 22:30:25 ordered myself a pair Feb 28 22:30:34 No problem. Feb 28 22:30:45 hopefully its just faulty sd cards Feb 28 22:30:55 gets kind of annoying to lose my state so often Feb 28 22:31:25 if this doesnt fix it ill have to go back to a x86 desktop :( Feb 28 22:32:20 Yea, that does seem odd. Although if you really want to do serious work, I recommend using a USB Sata drive for rootfs. Feb 28 22:32:41 i am on my desktop Feb 28 22:32:42 You will see much improved speed. Feb 28 22:32:51 only thing the sd card is boot Feb 28 22:32:51 Ah. Feb 28 22:32:51 ok Feb 28 22:33:09 And that system still fails? Feb 28 22:33:14 yeh Feb 28 22:33:20 thought not as frequently as the pure sd one Feb 28 22:33:58 Hmm. i wonder if it is powering off the usb bus or something. Might be a glitch in the sleep settings. Feb 28 22:34:17 Still, I think I would have seen that here. Feb 28 22:34:27 it only happens when im not using the box Feb 28 22:34:35 its never happened while i was logged in Feb 28 22:34:36 well Feb 28 22:34:40 i mean logged in doing stuff Feb 28 22:34:50 but ill come back to it and its completely dead Feb 28 22:34:56 Well, my ES was up all weekend and I never set foot in my office. It sat idle the whole time. Feb 28 22:35:00 keyboard locked/nothing on screen Feb 28 22:35:03 no network Feb 28 22:35:13 hrmm Feb 28 22:35:15 or Feb 28 22:35:18 it oculd be the power supply Feb 28 22:35:27 Very odd. It may be a glitchy board. Feb 28 22:35:30 im using a 5v 3.6a supply from radio shack Feb 28 22:35:32 both of them? Feb 28 22:35:52 I don't trust RS. Feb 28 22:36:06 suppose ill replace that too Feb 28 22:36:12 have a model number i can order? Feb 28 22:36:42 My 4-board tower is running off and old 230 watt AT power supply through a relay (to control individual power). Feb 28 22:36:57 ooh fancy Feb 28 22:37:10 unfortunately a bit of my time alotment for this project Feb 28 22:37:14 +out Feb 28 22:37:31 this will be my frys excuse Feb 28 22:37:42 ill see what 5v 4a type things they have Feb 28 22:38:09 Here is the power supply I have on the rest of the boards: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?KeyWords=993-1019-ND&site=us&lang=en&WT.z_slp_buy=TI_PandaBoard Feb 28 22:38:43 nice thank you Feb 28 22:40:06 The harness for the AT power supply is fairly easy to assemble if you can get the barrel connectors. Fry's may be hit or miss, but they at least have the HD power cables I used as a sacrificial starting point. Feb 28 22:41:47 I had to do some serious customization as I needed to power the usb drives as well as the pandas, but I also needed one USB port open for the kvm switch and I didn't want to mod my pandas in any way. Feb 28 22:46:24 yeh ive been contemplating adding a usb hub Feb 28 22:46:29 two ports is a bit rough Feb 28 22:48:37 It is fairy easy to add 2 more ports if you can solder. One of the expansion connectors can be used to add a 10 pin header, then you can use a standard PC internal USB cable to add ports 3 & 4. Feb 28 22:49:24 really? Feb 28 22:49:37 there is an a&b Feb 28 22:49:44 does that mean i can do 6 usb ports? Feb 28 22:50:07 (total) Feb 28 22:50:11 I'm looking for the info. It is fairly simple, I just chose to not mod mine in any way. Feb 28 22:50:19 No, only 4. Feb 28 22:50:31 cool thank you Feb 28 22:51:05 There it is. http://elinux.org/Panda_How_to_add_2_USBs Feb 28 22:52:03 that is easy Feb 28 22:52:25 Yep. But 4 ports is the max for the built in USB controller. Feb 28 22:52:32 and i assume it enumerates just like the other usb ports? Feb 28 22:52:41 Yes. Feb 28 22:53:28 I believe they will show up as ports 1.3 & 1.4 respectively. Feb 28 22:53:54 ill add that to list of things to do once i get these boards stable Feb 28 22:54:02 the more i think about it.. its far more likely the power supply Feb 28 22:54:04 then the sd card Feb 28 22:54:36 I would agree. If the power supply isn't ramping fast enough on demand, that can be an issue. Feb 28 22:55:29 If you have a USB Y cable (usually for external drives) try running using that on a pc to power one of your pandas. Feb 28 22:56:21 It won't give you a lot of power, so no fs video playback, wifi, etc. But for booting and sitting at the desktop, it should be fine. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 29 02:59:58 2012