**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 08 02:59:58 2013 Jan 08 05:11:44 anyone interested? http://viajemotu.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/ubuntu-loco-games-2013-1/ Jan 08 08:39:37 hello Jan 08 08:39:50 has anyone used ubuntu arm on a raspberry pi Jan 08 09:13:34 marvin24: you can't Jan 08 09:13:48 "If you have a Pi, try #raspbian !" is in topic for a reason Jan 08 09:14:06 hrw: You meant mattronix, which failed to tab-complete cause he left. :P Jan 08 09:14:08 hrw: I was about to say that but the guy left Jan 08 09:14:14 ops Jan 08 11:01:26 ikepanhc: do you use DT with any of your arm kernels? Jan 08 11:05:05 ppisati, the armadaxp at least does not use DT Jan 08 11:05:15 uhm Jan 08 11:05:27 i'm rpetty sure at leat one of our kernel support DT Jan 08 11:05:27 ppisati, not sure about other kernels ike maintains Jan 08 11:06:04 armadaxp support may be in 3.8 already so in raring we could just switch to mainline. I know it is being upstreamed but I am not uptodate Jan 08 11:09:13 and if is then probably also uses DT Jan 08 11:16:24 my concern is about ubuntu arm images vs DT distribution/board support Jan 08 11:16:36 do we separate DTs from ubuntu images? Jan 08 11:16:47 or do we only support one board? Jan 08 11:17:02 e.g. for omap4 there are already 2 different DTs Jan 08 11:17:06 panda and pandaes Jan 08 11:17:11 which do we pick? Jan 08 11:26:11 both and let uboot choose? Jan 08 11:27:04 hrw: does the linaro alredy do that? Jan 08 11:27:11 hrw: *linaro uboot Jan 08 11:27:30 ppisati: no idea - I no longer touch armv7a Jan 08 12:18:27 ppisati: besides armadaxp, highbank and arndale require DT when booting Jan 08 12:25:21 ikepanhc: arndale? Jan 08 12:26:49 ppisati: samsung soc Jan 08 12:28:36 exynos5250 Jan 08 12:28:43 exactly Jan 08 12:29:13 nice devboard for development of arm stuff. dual a15 with 2gb ram and sata Jan 08 12:30:25 ikepanhc: do you know where DT is distributed? in u-boot or in the kernel package? Jan 08 12:31:04 ppisati: DT binary shall be something bootloader hands over to kernel, usually bootloader will put it in dram Jan 08 12:31:26 ppisati: should be with kernel Jan 08 12:31:32 ppisati: in my viewpoint, it shall not be with kenel package Jan 08 12:31:45 it comes from the kernel sources so Jan 08 12:31:53 ikepanhc: but it comes from kernel source Jan 08 12:31:54 ikepanhc: in the armadaxp case, where does it live? Jan 08 12:32:30 yes, in all of the case I see, all from kernel source Jan 08 12:33:20 but just like acpi table, if we just need a single table for a kernel, why we need it? Jan 08 12:34:24 * ppisati download armadaxp and take a look Jan 08 12:35:25 ikepanhc: because we can provide single table for device which runs kernel targetting 100 different devices? Jan 08 12:37:00 hrw: I think it shall be designed for "single kernel can work fine on 100 different board with each DT" Jan 08 12:37:55 ppisati: armadaxp do not have DT support Jan 08 12:37:56 ikepanhc: if you want 4MB kernel with 4MB DT... Jan 08 12:38:36 ikepanhc: there are devices where DT will be manipulated from userspace Jan 08 12:39:39 isn't that purely a hack to get around missing DT support in bootloaders though? Jan 08 12:39:49 RaYmAn: no Jan 08 12:40:29 RaYmAn: https://lwn.net/Articles/531569/ Jan 08 13:57:46 hi janimo Jan 08 13:57:55 I've setup a branch on http://gitorious.org/~marvin24/ac100/marvin24s-kernel/commits/linux-ac100-3.8 Jan 08 13:58:09 with some patches against 3.8-rc2 Jan 08 13:58:18 I'm not sure how to proceed Jan 08 13:58:34 as there will be no official Raring build for the AC100 Jan 08 13:59:13 on the other hand, a kernel package would make it simpler to create a community build Jan 08 13:59:56 I wonder if there is some docu on how to create ubuntu installer images for "unsupported" devices Jan 08 14:00:22 I have modified the omap netboot image already, and it seems to work Jan 08 14:00:33 but that's more like a hack Jan 08 14:16:53 marvin24, nice, and 3.8 works just as well as our current kernel? Jan 08 14:18:23 marvin24, I am not sure about how community builds are run, ogra may know more Jan 08 14:19:57 I don't think there are easy tools, official images also contain a lot of per-target hacks both for builders and inside packages Jan 08 14:24:35 janimo: so far everything fine, 3.8 already includes the tegra drm driver (lcd and hdmi output work) Jan 08 14:24:44 so the patches are rather minimal Jan 08 14:25:09 marvin24, great. But too late for the 3.8 cycle? Jan 08 14:25:10 it's a bit unfortune that there is so little docu about this Jan 08 14:25:24 marvin24, about image building? Jan 08 14:25:26 janimo: in fact, bare 3.8 also works Jan 08 14:25:31 janimo: yes Jan 08 14:25:49 I guess there are many people who like to build images for their devices Jan 08 14:25:55 marvin24, indeed, it is a pity. The tools used for ubuntu images are not well documented either Jan 08 14:26:08 well, there is build-live Jan 08 14:26:22 I didn't dig too deep into the configuration Jan 08 14:26:22 marvin24, we use livecd-rootfs to create the bits and then debian-cd and cdimage to assemble an image out of them Jan 08 14:26:25 marvin24, it even stops canonical employees from testing things fast locally, it does not only affect outside developers Jan 08 14:26:44 everything sould be in public branches nowadays Jan 08 14:26:57 ogra_: maybe someone could setup a page which describes the process somehow Jan 08 14:26:59 (on launchpad, look for the cdimage team) Jan 08 14:27:13 I kown I'm to lazy to read the source Jan 08 14:27:15 marvin24, yes, someone should :) Jan 08 14:27:24 (since years) Jan 08 14:27:52 it's not that it is not public (anymore at least) but not streamlined into one command that is easier than live-build Jan 08 14:28:01 (livecd-rootfs is a wrapper for live-build btw) Jan 08 14:28:12 ogra_: btw, https://gitorious.org/uboot-ac100/create_bootimage Jan 08 14:28:23 yeah, saw you talking about it on #ac100 Jan 08 14:28:24 builds an image which can be uploaded via tegrarcm Jan 08 14:28:28 no need to flash Jan 08 14:28:36 starts raring netboot installer Jan 08 14:29:40 mkimage ? Jan 08 14:29:51 why dont you use text files for the config ? Jan 08 14:30:07 (we do that everywhere lese nowadays) Jan 08 14:30:09 *else Jan 08 14:32:58 oh, a new florence release ... Jan 08 14:33:06 something to test on the nexus7 :) Jan 08 14:34:05 janimo, do you still work on the gyro sensor bits and camera support ? Jan 08 14:34:44 ogra_, I am still assigned those WIs so in principle yet. gyro first, webcam later Jan 08 14:34:55 good Jan 08 14:35:02 for webcam I know there was some nvidia comments on the bugreport suggesting they too are looking into that Jan 08 14:35:14 awesome Jan 08 14:35:26 * ogra_ finally has ureadahead working ... Jan 08 14:35:33 still struggling with plymouth Jan 08 14:36:20 i got it booting without initrd ... but then plymouth crashes and mountall refuses to finish the fsck Jan 08 14:45:28 ogra_: mkimage adds the u-boot header Jan 08 14:46:00 ... which is not really required by u-boot anymore Jan 08 14:46:12 marvin24, u-boot doesnt need that since over a year anymore, you can use uEvn.txt and preEnv.txt instead Jan 08 14:46:46 I wonder why ubuntu still uses it (uImage, uInitrd) Jan 08 14:47:34 because we have code that handles them generically across all u-boot images and nobody bothered to change anything there Jan 08 14:47:54 panda is pretty much in maintenance mode ... Jan 08 14:48:14 nexus7 and ac100 use fastboot ... Jan 08 14:48:36 and the diferent server images we have ship with u-bppt on flash Jan 08 14:48:43 *u-boot Jan 08 14:49:03 (afaik at least, havent done much in the server area lately) Jan 08 14:49:45 how is uEnv.txt loaded or embedded into the u-boot image? Jan 08 14:49:59 the only actual improvement was the switch to txt files from the silly boot.scr Jan 08 14:50:00 is this omap u-boot specific? Jan 08 14:50:09 no Jan 08 14:50:14 upstream u-boot Jan 08 14:50:37 * marvin24 greps the u-boot source Jan 08 14:50:40 should work on all setups that use upstream more or less Jan 08 14:52:00 hmpf Jan 08 14:52:13 so ureadahead speeds up booting noticeable ... Jan 08 14:52:35 but only the part where we show a splash anyway ... the bits with black screen didnt get faster Jan 08 14:59:35 ogra_: seems that uEnv.txt is loaded by a user defined script in some configs Jan 08 14:59:54 tegra has only minimal config scripts for now Jan 08 15:00:13 well, the functionallity to use it is upstream Jan 08 15:00:29 you shouldnt need to do anything but enable it Jan 08 15:00:45 ogra_: there is no "code" for this Jan 08 15:00:55 it's just a macro in the board config Jan 08 15:00:58 i thought there was Jan 08 15:01:08 which calls "env load" from the u-boot prompt at the end Jan 08 15:01:22 and then something must use these variables Jan 08 15:01:37 I like the "source " aproach more Jan 08 15:01:48 because it is more adaptable Jan 08 15:02:18 but a nightmare to edit Jan 08 15:02:50 boot.scr is one of the biggest complaints i had from users over the years Jan 08 15:02:58 well, the need for post processing Jan 08 15:04:03 yes, from a user perspective you are right Jan 08 15:04:31 on the other hand, I first have to upstream some script which interprets the uEnv.txt to make use of it Jan 08 15:04:42 k Jan 08 15:04:45 http://git.denx.de/?p=u-boot.git;a=blob;f=include/configs/omap3_beagle.h Jan 08 15:04:51 search for "bootenv" Jan 08 15:05:00 i really thought that was an upstream addition thats usable everywhere now Jan 08 15:05:21 i know there were a bunch of discussions on the cross-distro arm list Jan 08 15:05:29 (to default to it for everything) Jan 08 15:05:42 * ogra_ curses Jan 08 15:05:51 ok, my kernel change didnt fix plymouth Jan 08 15:05:54 :( Jan 08 15:07:49 * ogra_ sighs Jan 08 15:08:04 ogra_: nexus7 fight? Jan 08 15:08:14 well, tegra fight Jan 08 15:08:22 we have a similar prob on the ac100 Jan 08 15:08:37 i can fix it by running console-setup before plymouth runs Jan 08 15:09:09 but i dont need to do that on any other arch and would likt to fix the root of the prob Jan 08 15:09:38 especially since you force yourself to use an initrd when needing to run console-setup before Jan 08 15:10:10 (and i'm trying to get rid of initrd completely for the installed nexus7) Jan 08 15:13:00 why, it speeds up the boot? Jan 08 15:13:16 yes Jan 08 15:14:54 so it actually partially boots a boot.img without a ramdisk on n7? Jan 08 15:15:03 right Jan 08 15:15:16 tf201's bootloader is buggy and needs a >0 byte ramdisk to actually boot kernel. Jan 08 15:15:28 same for nx7 Jan 08 15:15:32 ah, ok Jan 08 15:15:52 alternatively you can just disable the initrd support in the kernel Jan 08 15:16:10 but since we use the initrd at install time and cant get around that, thats no option Jan 08 15:22:48 is this a fastboot limitation? Jan 08 15:24:41 RaYmAn: what about to upgrade to u-boot? Jan 08 15:25:18 marvin24, rather abootimg i think Jan 08 15:26:42 abootimg? that just creates a boot partition ... Jan 08 15:26:51 fastboot has the size limit for the initrd Jan 08 15:27:39 which comes from downstream AFAIK, so all tegra devices should have similar problems Jan 08 15:27:39 well, abootimg doesnt let me add a obyte initrd Jan 08 15:27:44 0byte Jan 08 15:27:58 no idea where the limitation lies :) Jan 08 15:27:59 ogra_: use /dev/null as the initrd name Jan 08 15:28:08 no joke Jan 08 15:28:12 but from an enduser perspectice it starts at abootimg Jan 08 15:28:25 oh, didnt try that Jan 08 15:29:26 with the tf201 it is actually the bootloader Jan 08 15:31:32 ah, didn't know that Jan 08 15:33:56 marvin24: on n7? Not really possible given it requires a signed bl. Jan 08 15:35:12 and it does not have nvflash yet - when you corrupt the bootloader, you have one nice brick Jan 08 15:36:05 ah, rescue (rcm) mode als requires signed blob Jan 08 15:36:30 otherwise you could just use tegrarcm Jan 08 15:36:49 maybe someone should ask for the keys ... Jan 08 15:37:43 It's per-device key Jan 08 15:39:17 so they have a different "zero"-stage boot loader in each cpu? Jan 08 15:39:29 * marvin24 forgot how this is implemented in hw Jan 08 15:40:02 or I just didn't read http://http.download.nvidia.com/tegra-public-appnotes/tegra-boot-flow.html Jan 08 15:40:46 "The Tegra SoC supports various security modes. Some of these modes require the BCT, bootloader, and/or RCM protocol messages to be encrypted and/or signed with a potentially device-specific key. Details of these features are beyond the scope of this document.The Tegra SoC supports various security modes. Some of these modes require the BCT, bootloader, and/or RCM protocol messages to be encrypted and/or signed with a Jan 08 15:40:46 potentially device-specific key. Details of these features are beyond the scope of this document." Jan 08 15:40:46 doesn't that only handle the open case? Jan 08 15:40:55 ah, right Jan 08 15:41:27 RaYmAn: so flashing/updating bootloader must be done by current active bootloader, since nothing else has the key? Jan 08 15:41:28 but yeah, they are encrypted & signed with a device-specific Secure boot key (SBK) Jan 08 15:41:43 Tassadar: that pretty much sums it up I guess Jan 08 15:41:48 that's dumb Jan 08 15:42:05 (and no, you can't extract the key :P) Jan 08 15:42:15 yeah, it's all encrypted Jan 08 15:42:24 read that somewhere already Jan 08 15:42:44 yeah, else nvflash would just work Jan 08 15:42:51 or tegracrm Jan 08 15:42:57 Tassadar: why is that dumb? works quite well Jan 08 15:43:11 in any case, fastboot won't let you flash a new bootloader because it requires that it's signed (by an RSA key) Jan 08 15:43:15 (on n7) Jan 08 15:43:28 fasboot erase bootloader works pretty well too, unfortunatelly Jan 08 15:43:35 so if google wanted, they could easily let us flash a signed uboot Jan 08 15:45:33 chmm, that is weird Jan 08 15:45:55 one CM developer managed to accidentally brick his n7 by "fastboot flash bootloader boot.img" Oo Jan 08 15:46:10 that's not very likely Jan 08 15:46:14 well, actually Jan 08 15:46:15 hmm Jan 08 15:46:25 there is *one* case where that could happen Jan 08 15:46:41 It uses a rather specific way of signing bootloaders, so if the boot.img was signed the same way, it would flash Jan 08 15:47:08 it was probably just normal boot image Jan 08 15:47:17 it refuses to flash those Jan 08 15:47:43 I can't rule out a previous bootloader version might have allowed it Jan 08 15:49:48 anyway, I don't really get why do they even bother to lock it up like that Jan 08 15:50:10 indeed Jan 08 15:50:19 it's kind of pointless Jan 08 15:50:41 I mean, you can partially understand it on phones - carrier lockin and stuff, lots of money involved Jan 08 15:50:53 but on tablets? that's just silly! Jan 08 15:51:11 probably just the same code Jan 08 15:51:22 and someone being to lazy to special case it for tablets Jan 08 15:51:28 mm Jan 08 15:51:57 google actively enabled that extra layer of security. Jan 08 15:52:01 It's entirely optional on tegra Jan 08 15:52:04 transformer's bootloader was encrypted too I think, Asus said that it was required to get like the DRM licences (?), and they released like "unlocked" version, which disabled google play movies or something like that Jan 08 15:52:05 (as you know from ac100) Jan 08 15:52:11 if I'm not mistaken Jan 08 15:52:51 the whole asus thing was one big misunderstanding. No one whining about it had any clue what it was about Jan 08 15:53:04 but they did manage to convince asus to make an unlock, so no point in arguing ;) Jan 08 15:53:46 the encryption/signing of the bootloader is a tegra SoC core feature. It's controlled by OTP fuses, so these fuses has to be actively burned to enable it Jan 08 15:54:24 well....nexus 7 has the same thing, shame that nobody cares since we can "unlock" ability to flash system/data/recovery Jan 08 15:54:45 indeed. Jan 08 15:55:04 * ogra_ doesnt mind the bootloader ... but the GPT Jan 08 15:55:17 * Tassadar searches for GPT Jan 08 15:55:28 the hardcoded partition table Jan 08 15:55:30 partition table! Jan 08 15:55:41 yeah, that's a pain with the hardcoded offsets etc Jan 08 15:55:57 (gpt_offset or something passed to kernel) Jan 08 15:56:15 i would pretty much prefer we could just wipe the MMC completely and use it as single partition Jan 08 15:57:01 yeah Jan 08 15:57:44 I like how QC does it - just search for a partition iwth a specific UUID and load bootloader from there. Jan 08 15:57:58 ac100 was never locked at all Jan 08 15:58:25 it was transformer prime Jan 08 15:58:40 the one with gps problems i believe Jan 08 15:58:48 Tassadar: original transformer had exactly the same issues wrt bootloader. Jan 08 15:59:04 well, except they didn't require signed boot.img & recovery.img for that. Jan 08 15:59:12 But bootloader it self was encrypted & signed in the same way. Jan 08 16:01:49 yeah, here it is http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/01/03/you-spoke-asus-listened-an-unlock-tool-for-the-transformer-primes-bootloader-is-in-the-works/ Jan 08 16:01:56 they say it is required because of DRM Jan 08 16:02:29 the interesting part is that when you unlock e.g. N7, it leaves your DRM keys in tact and DRM still works. Jan 08 16:02:41 whereas on TF Prime, they wipe the keys Jan 08 16:03:00 So I suspect it's more of a misunderstanding in what is required. Jan 08 16:03:14 well, on n7 it does not unlock the bootloader itself Jan 08 16:03:32 explain? Jan 08 16:03:47 like the bootloader is still encrypted and must be signed Jan 08 16:03:53 if you want to flash another Jan 08 16:03:56 no different on the tf201 Jan 08 16:04:06 the encrypted business is a one way deal Jan 08 16:04:11 :/ Jan 08 16:04:50 I guess it would be complete surprise if the'd made up that stuff about DRM :) Jan 08 16:08:36 by the way, can't you play the movie via HDMI? Isn't the DRM pointless then? Jan 08 16:09:41 HDMI has builtin DRM :) Jan 08 16:09:50 hah, okay) Jan 08 16:10:17 Tassadar: look at HDCP Jan 08 16:11:45 "In September 2010, an HDCP master key [...] was released to the public" Jan 08 16:12:24 sure, has the same status as libdvdcss Jan 08 16:13:10 so just another "DRM" to soothe the content publishers Jan 08 16:13:12 you cant officially use or distribute it Jan 08 16:13:35 does it even work for decrypting bluerays? Jan 08 16:13:42 I mean, on a regular pc etc Jan 08 16:13:48 HDCP is part of DRM ... else you could ... as you said above ... just copy the video stream Jan 08 16:14:10 er, not blurays of course. Jan 08 16:14:24 From what I heard, you need rather specialized hardware to actually take advantage of that key Jan 08 16:16:59 engadget says that "Hardware HDCP rippers like the HDfury2 and DVIMAGIC have been around" before that key was "released" Jan 08 16:18:05 it is probably not even used that much anyway, since ripping the blurays is clearly possible Jan 08 16:18:33 http://www.iloveubuntu.net/mark-shuttleworth-video-demoes-ubuntu-phones-ces-2013 Jan 08 16:18:35 :D Jan 08 16:45:10 yuhu - we'll get locked ubuntu Jan 09 01:34:12 test Jan 09 01:34:57 You failed your test:P Jan 09 01:39:58 lol myes Jan 09 01:40:45 Myes? Jan 09 01:41:05 mmmmmmmmmmmmyesssssssssss Jan 09 01:41:36 Oh Jan 09 01:41:52 SmallFry, what do u use ubuntu-arm on? Jan 09 01:42:01 Nexus 7 Jan 09 01:42:07 nice me too Jan 09 01:42:27 Multirom? Jan 09 01:42:29 any damn luck with the gestures or getting the user interface to be ah...more usable? Jan 09 01:43:00 I've just got the latest raring image on there, I've recompiled the kernel a couple times with a buddy to get it to do some extra stuff Jan 09 01:43:00 I installed kde, Jan 09 01:43:11 yeah i've tried litterally every desktop env Jan 09 01:43:18 kde was buggy as hell for me Jan 09 01:43:28 did u install just kde or plasma as well? Jan 09 01:43:31 Mine was a bit too Jan 09 01:43:46 Plasma won't show up if i install it via apt get Jan 09 01:44:26 yeah, i actually found xfce4 to be the most stable and customizable - problem was because it was xfce the touch screen wouldn't work for window titles/min/max/close Jan 09 01:44:41 Ugh Jan 09 01:44:54 i was bummed because xfce4 ran really well and really fast on the nexus, plus it's stable as hell Jan 09 01:45:03 it was just that ONE thing that was a pretty big deal Jan 09 01:45:17 lubuntu on the other hand worked pretty well Jan 09 01:45:33 lxde was OK, but also buggy as soon as u tried to resize ANYTHING Jan 09 01:46:01 I tried gnome class but it was virtually impossible to customize and not enough options for settings Jan 09 01:46:12 unity is pretty much unusable - soooo damn slow Jan 09 01:46:27 also had to stop a couple services right off the bat like avahi-daemon and cups Jan 09 01:47:09 SmallFry, the cool part was I was able to install just about any tool I wanted, but using that touchscreen is a nightmare Jan 09 01:47:10 I have been running vanilla Jan 09 01:47:18 I agree Jan 09 01:47:25 not the same experience as running android on the device... Jan 09 01:47:33 I'm such a Linus noob thougg Jan 09 01:47:40 Not at all Jan 09 01:47:48 I wish they would put a little more development into the interface and touch screen, plus the keyboard also needs some work Jan 09 01:48:05 but hey, i am happy they released it! Jan 09 01:48:13 I know youre working hard out there devs! Jan 09 01:48:20 Aye, had to put the on-screen keyboard button in the corner so I could get it up on unitys search Jan 09 01:48:36 yeah omg the thing is awefull for the most part Jan 09 01:48:55 i wish onboard actually was a little more concious of things running Jan 09 01:48:59 it's definitely getting better Jan 09 01:49:19 but it's not like in android where the keyboard is built into each app essentially Jan 09 01:49:39 so when you're using the terminal the keyboard doesnt block the text ect, Jan 09 01:51:06 Mhm Jan 09 01:51:19 The on-screen keyboard button actually isn't bad Jan 09 01:51:35 Just enabled it in the accessibility options Jan 09 01:58:49 yeah i love the button, just wish it was more application aware Jan 09 02:00:26 Yep Jan 09 02:02:41 Ethernin: keyboard isnt built into apps in android. but it is a standard SERVICE apps are aware of and they "request" either manualyl or as part of the toolkit Jan 09 02:05:10 raster, cool thanks for the info, so basically it's the apps that are aware of the keyboard, not the keyboard that is aware of the apps? Jan 09 02:05:28 well its mostly the toolkjit Jan 09 02:05:28 raster, in ubuntu it's basically the other way around with onboard correct? Jan 09 02:05:36 eg you place an entry "widget" Jan 09 02:05:43 and when it is "focuseD" it asks for a kbd service Jan 09 02:05:51 riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Jan 09 02:05:52 the kbd is in fact a separate window/app/process Jan 09 02:06:18 so with ubuntu Jan 09 02:06:29 i think what ubuntu has done is recycle the input method framework to detect something needs input Jan 09 02:06:33 *BUT* Jan 09 02:06:34 is it possible to get that same kind of functionality easily? Jan 09 02:06:37 nmot everything is configured to use it Jan 09 02:06:40 right Jan 09 02:06:40 or uses it "right" Jan 09 02:06:54 and thus it doesnt work for all apps/all toolkits etc. in all cases Jan 09 02:07:00 yeah, my experience has been when it's been aware it basically triggers on input Jan 09 02:07:22 hmm, Jan 09 02:07:28 most linux toolkits are pretty much unaware of vkbds at all Jan 09 02:07:35 efl i think is a major exception Jan 09 02:07:39 raster, do you know of any terminals that are aware in such a way? Jan 09 02:07:39 i dont know about qt Jan 09 02:07:43 efl? Jan 09 02:07:50 gtk last i looked didnt really know anything specific Jan 09 02:07:54 ya Jan 09 02:08:00 and xterm/rxvt etc. etc. just have no clue Jan 09 02:08:03 they CAN use input methods Jan 09 02:08:19 hmm...yeah ive been trying to figure something out Jan 09 02:08:26 but normally via xim (the old old old input method framework - your scim/uim/whatever will often have an xim bridge) Jan 09 02:08:37 i love the power of ubuntu and flexibility - but it's pretty hard to use with that touchscreen Jan 09 02:08:38 tbh - i dont much care myself :) Jan 09 02:08:52 1. i use a toolkit that knows about vkbd's and input methods Jan 09 02:08:58 yeah yeah i hear that alllll the time :) Jan 09 02:09:04 2. i have a ui/desktop env that provides vkbd's built-in Jan 09 02:09:14 3. i work on both the toolkit and the wm/vkbd/desktop Jan 09 02:09:17 so i can "make it work" Jan 09 02:09:18 cool Jan 09 02:09:18 :) Jan 09 02:09:29 what toolkit? Jan 09 02:09:42 whatever other things do... is of just "passing interest" to me. :) Jan 09 02:09:44 efl Jan 09 02:10:03 awesome, checking it out! Jan 09 02:10:07 as efl is what is used in tizen for mobile phones Jan 09 02:10:12 it has.. support for this stuff Jan 09 02:10:17 reeeeeeeeallallllllly Jan 09 02:10:19 touch figner controls/friendliness etc. Jan 09 02:10:21 that's interesting Jan 09 02:10:30 DUUUUDE Jan 09 02:10:33 THANK YOUS! Jan 09 02:10:40 so just drag to scroll Jan 09 02:10:47 (and it has momentum/bounces etc.) Jan 09 02:10:55 well ok - its configurable Jan 09 02:10:56 ha! Jan 09 02:11:00 it has "perconalities" Jan 09 02:11:04 err personalities Jan 09 02:11:12 enlightenment foundation libraries Jan 09 02:11:15 this is hilarious Jan 09 02:11:17 configure in "standard" mode and u get a littrle scrollbar u drag as normal Jan 09 02:11:25 and things kinda are desktop-y in the way they behave Jan 09 02:11:31 copy & paste in entires etc. Jan 09 02:11:34 dude Jan 09 02:11:35 omg Jan 09 02:11:42 if u switch to "mobile" mode Jan 09 02:11:44 this is EXACTLY what i have been looking for! Jan 09 02:11:47 it swizzles some config values Jan 09 02:11:52 wicked! Jan 09 02:12:02 and then finger drag scrolls, copy & paste/selections behave differently (finger-friendly) Jan 09 02:12:03 etc. Jan 09 02:12:12 freakin awesome Jan 09 02:12:18 dude seriously thank you! Jan 09 02:12:51 so basically an app can work on both a desktop (mouse+kbd) setup and a touch setup Jan 09 02:12:57 just by swizzling "system config vlaues" Jan 09 02:13:06 system confgi also controls scaling ANd sizing of ui elements Jan 09 02:13:18 ie figner size forces any elemnt u are to "click/touch/press" Jan 09 02:13:19 Its just an apt get? Jan 09 02:13:26 and forces it to be a bigger size Jan 09 02:13:34 Apt-get efl? Jan 09 02:13:38 ie.. be a "finger in size" so its easy to hit with a finger Jan 09 02:13:41 wow they even got the domain name "enlightenment.org" Jan 09 02:14:03 so if on a tocuh ui - just scale up the finger size and its easy to use Jan 09 02:14:28 if on mouse/kbd - dial down finger size and elemtns size less "fatty" to reflect that a mouse is far more accurate in hitting things Jan 09 02:14:34 Is it just apt get efl? Jan 09 02:14:39 it'll dynamically adapt Jan 09 02:14:45 u'll probably need to find a ppa Jan 09 02:14:51 and it isnt called "efl" in packages Jan 09 02:14:54 raster, omg dude this is exactly what i've been trying to find, yeah so do you have to compile from source or is it in the repos? Jan 09 02:14:56 its split into about a dozen libraries Jan 09 02:15:03 ok Jan 09 02:15:16 Ethernin: :) Jan 09 02:15:30 i've been looking at multitouch and utouch for gestures ect, but this seems like THE TICKET!!! Jan 09 02:15:35 raster, ^_^ Jan 09 02:15:39 What's a Ppa... Jan 09 02:16:14 https://launchpad.net/~hannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn Jan 09 02:16:20 wow that was quick! Jan 09 02:16:34 Ethernin: also efl supports multitouch Jan 09 02:16:40 it happens to work out of the box on my n7 Jan 09 02:16:52 tho i did compile efl myself Jan 09 02:16:53 OMFG Jan 09 02:16:58 HURRRAY!!!! Jan 09 02:16:59 and i made sure to enable the xi2.2 support Jan 09 02:17:06 elementary has a multitouch test Jan 09 02:17:10 what's the xi2.2 support? Jan 09 02:17:11 just stick multiple fingers on there Jan 09 02:17:22 if u get multiple "target points" ttracking all your figners Jan 09 02:17:24 yeah i saw that, the 3 finger touch Jan 09 02:17:24 then its working Jan 09 02:17:26 it works for me Jan 09 02:17:30 dude Jan 09 02:17:36 youre my savior man! Jan 09 02:17:38 there are other gesture tests Jan 09 02:17:45 "my own personal jesus christ" Jan 09 02:17:51 eg pinch-to-zoom stuff Jan 09 02:17:58 "mesculin, it's the only way to fly :)" Jan 09 02:18:03 theres one test that lets u zoom+rotsate a photo with momentum as u slide it around Jan 09 02:18:13 this is amazing Jan 09 02:18:19 i knew there was a way.... Jan 09 02:18:19 some widgets support multitouch out of the box Jan 09 02:18:35 eg the photocam widget (for displaying big megabgapixel camera photos) Jan 09 02:18:40 pinch to zoom should work there Jan 09 02:18:42 yeah, u can triple tap to move windows, but it's flaky at best out of the box Jan 09 02:18:52 as with the map widget )(can do openstreetmaps and otehr mappign service stuff) Jan 09 02:18:59 dude i can't tell u how psyched i am now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jan 09 02:19:09 i wanted the pinch zoom bad too... Jan 09 02:19:15 xi2.2 == Xinput 2.,2 Jan 09 02:19:21 err xinput 2.2 Jan 09 02:19:33 as of xinput v 2.2 full touch support was added to the xinput layer Jan 09 02:19:36 "properly" Jan 09 02:19:39 its supported in efl Jan 09 02:19:55 riiiight, so there's a conf file for that where you can add custom gestures right? Jan 09 02:19:58 mostly due to the fact it has mpx support already for xi2.0 Jan 09 02:20:15 and that it is used in tizen which right now is heavily mobile/touch focused and thus gets the attention and work Jan 09 02:20:17 Ethernin Jan 09 02:20:21 umm no Jan 09 02:20:24 no conf file for gestures Jan 09 02:20:29 gestures are recognised in code Jan 09 02:20:36 they arent "draw symbol x" Jan 09 02:20:40 If you get this stuff compiled, shoot it my way would you? Jan 09 02:20:40 so it isnt a series of points to match Jan 09 02:20:41 ah Jan 09 02:20:48 gestures are dynamically tracked Jan 09 02:21:02 SmallFry, sure thing, I;ll try it out and give u my steps if i get it working! Jan 09 02:21:05 and literallyu if u write an app and code to handle specific gestures - u register for a gestrure event Jan 09 02:21:16 interesting Jan 09 02:21:18 and then AS the gestrues are recognized u are told what is recognized and parameters for it Jan 09 02:21:24 Sure:) shoot me a PM anytime Jan 09 02:21:24 eg how much you just zoomed with a pinch Jan 09 02:21:25 etc. Jan 09 02:21:30 ok right on Jan 09 02:21:42 raster man thanks for the clarification, VERY HELPFULL Jan 09 02:21:47 so its not just "oh he drew a circle" Jan 09 02:21:47 :P Jan 09 02:21:55 or "he drew a Z" Jan 09 02:22:09 its more the swipe/pinch/ etc. style gestures Jan 09 02:22:13 with 1, 2 or 3 fingers etc. Jan 09 02:22:23 see gestture layer test in elementary_Test Jan 09 02:22:36 it shows u gestures i knows of and lights up the ones it recognizes Jan 09 02:22:41 ok that makes sense Jan 09 02:23:02 imho recognizing if u "drew a Z" is a whole different class of thing Jan 09 02:23:11 oh man, ok going to try and get this working! Jan 09 02:23:11 ie its shape recognition basically Jan 09 02:23:15 coooool Jan 09 02:23:24 recognizing some shape u drew Jan 09 02:23:45 anyway Jan 09 02:23:50 just fyi :) Jan 09 02:23:54 play with it as u like Jan 09 02:23:58 i gotta run but ill be back, raster thanks again man, SmallFry I'll be back trying to get this working on my N7 Jan 09 02:24:07 Ok Jan 09 02:24:08 oh hellllllllllllllllllllllllllls yeah! Jan 09 02:24:11 #e if u want to ask Jan 09 02:24:16 as u'll get more answers there Jan 09 02:24:20 Thanks Jan 09 02:24:21 #e? Jan 09 02:24:33 i should have made some videos Jan 09 02:24:38 channel Jan 09 02:24:39 #e Jan 09 02:24:43 k Jan 09 02:24:44 wicked Jan 09 02:24:50 dude seriously thanks much Jan 09 02:24:54 see the enlightenment.org website Jan 09 02:24:58 ill be on in a while to mess with this stuff! Jan 09 02:24:59 info on "contacting" etc. Jan 09 02:25:01 mailing lists Jan 09 02:25:03 irc Jan 09 02:25:03 yeah im checking it out for sutre! Jan 09 02:25:04 etc. Jan 09 02:25:06 so dope Jan 09 02:25:10 later boys! Jan 09 02:25:14 it also is a lot less heavy than unity Jan 09 02:25:21 thank the lords Jan 09 02:25:33 so wait, is it a full desktop env???? Jan 09 02:25:36 after switching to e17 i managed to wipe off about 200-300m of mem usage compared to unity on my n7 Jan 09 02:25:38 yes Jan 09 02:25:41 holy crap it is!!! Jan 09 02:25:42 it also is a full desktop env Jan 09 02:25:44 DAMN Jan 09 02:25:45 with compositing Jan 09 02:25:48 both gl and software Jan 09 02:25:50 dude this is INSANE! Jan 09 02:26:00 omg, i love u Jan 09 02:26:01 software comp is fast enough to be usable on my old penitum-m @ 600mhz Jan 09 02:26:02 hahahahahaa Jan 09 02:26:05 no gpu there Jan 09 02:26:05 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Jan 09 02:26:07 not needed Jan 09 02:26:13 sure - not silky smooth at all times Jan 09 02:26:13 ill be back, thanks again! Jan 09 02:26:16 but usable Jan 09 02:26:16 --out Jan 09 02:26:20 gl accel of course works Jan 09 02:26:21 opengl-es2 Jan 09 02:26:22 etc. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 09 02:59:59 2013