**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 18 02:59:59 2013 Jan 18 08:01:23 good morning Jan 18 08:05:15 does anyone else have the problem that the global menu is hardly clickable on the nexus7 with current raring? and a corrupted background during installation? Jan 18 09:47:01 hi Jan 18 09:47:19 are there any plans to support the raspbian pi in the future? Jan 18 09:47:39 or will there be no support for Armv6 Jan 18 10:21:37 iceroot: no support for armv6 Jan 18 10:21:56 lilstevie: ok Jan 18 10:23:02 see topic :) Jan 18 10:32:37 iceroot: Regressing our platform support for the sake of exactly one board (no matter how cool and hip it is) wouldn't make much sense. Jan 18 10:33:11 iceroot: But raspbian has worked out most of their kinks, and it's even the Pi's recommended OS these days, so that should do. Jan 18 10:34:55 dholbach, yo ... morning, when did we have the nx7 meeting again (time) ? i promised alex to run it today (we werent sure when you come back and were to lazy to dig through the calendar) Jan 18 10:41:09 infinity: thank you for that info, i am not very familiar with armv6 but as it seems its something "old" which does not have a future (like non-pae systems on x86) Jan 18 10:41:44 iceroot: Yeah, pretty much. armv7 (for 32-bit) and armv8 (for 64-bit) are the future. Jan 18 10:41:44 but what other arm devices are common for GNU/Linux instead of raspberry pi and nexus 7? Jan 18 10:41:55 iceroot: And, frankly, armv7 is the present too, not just the future. Jan 18 10:41:59 it surely has a future, just not in the desktop or smartphone market Jan 18 10:42:25 i guess v6 will still be used for a long time in industrial automation etc Jan 18 10:42:41 iceroot: There are a ton of fun armv7 devices out there. Pandaboards, Chromebooks, i.MX dev boards, etc, etc. Jan 18 10:42:51 nexus7 :) Jan 18 10:43:20 iceroot: But the Pi certainly has its place for educational use and other fun stuff. It's just not something Ubuntu's targetting. And Debian fills that gap nicely, so we don't have to. Jan 18 10:43:39 (In fact, Debian fills the gap twice... Officially with Debian/armel and unofficially with Raspbian) Jan 18 10:43:43 infinity: debian is not supporting raspberry pi too Jan 18 10:43:56 See above. :) Jan 18 10:44:17 People who claim Debian doesn't support it are people who assume you MUST run hard-float for that tiny performance boost. Jan 18 10:44:21 Debian/armel will work great on it. Jan 18 10:44:23 infinity: the official debian arm version does not include a special firmware, so something on the cpu is not worrking, because of that there is the hacked kernel on raspbian (imo) Jan 18 10:44:34 infinity: no debian is not working great on the pi Jan 18 10:44:51 The userspace would. Jan 18 10:44:54 I can't speak to kernels. Jan 18 10:45:18 Anyhow, somewhat out of scope for this channel. Jan 18 10:45:21 * ogra_ would prefer raspbian anyway, since its an armhf recompile Jan 18 10:45:36 but i am fine with raspbian, i just need a apt-get distro :) but ubuntu would be nice too, specially the education part should be a big target for ubuntu but that is just my opinion Jan 18 10:45:51 Honestly, I wouldn't recommend a Pi to anyone who wants to do serious ARM development for desktop/mobile/tablet type stuff. It's far too slow. Jan 18 10:45:58 ++ Jan 18 10:46:03 and far too little ram Jan 18 10:46:05 infinity: xbmc is my target and that is fine Jan 18 10:46:21 lilstevie: The too little RAM is a huge contributing factor to the too slow, yes. :/ Jan 18 10:46:32 its good for toying around but surely not suited to run a desktop centric distro like ubuntu Jan 18 10:46:47 I'm kinda hoping they switch to a v7 SoC in a future Pi edition and we can stop having this discussion. Jan 18 10:46:54 ++ Jan 18 10:47:05 ogra_: but it has a nice price specially for countries which are not that rich like the one from europe Jan 18 10:47:14 do broadcom even make a v7 soc Jan 18 10:47:21 sure, but you only get what you pay for Jan 18 10:47:27 lilstevie: Probably. Never checked. Jan 18 10:47:41 ogra_: then i would get nothing when using ubuntu :) Jan 18 10:47:46 cant make a porsche out of a beetle Jan 18 10:47:51 lilstevie: The list of A8 and A9 licensees is too long to memorize. :P Jan 18 10:48:16 I mean I have a tv box that uses the same soc as the rpi and it is fine with that, but that is an os that is tuned to limited resources Jan 18 10:48:20 iceroot, be sure someone pays a lot for ubuntu, just not you ;) Jan 18 10:48:22 ogra_: Pfft, just add a whale tail to your beetle and you're done. Jan 18 10:48:29 lol Jan 18 10:49:02 can't imagine running a desktop class os on it though Jan 18 10:49:16 The alternate counterpoint would be "You obviously never owned a Golf GT". Jan 18 10:49:42 heh, no, i never owned a VW in my life Jan 18 10:50:11 ogra_, 16 utc I think Jan 18 10:50:18 dholbach, thx Jan 18 10:50:21 ogra_, not sure if you saw my question earlier: Jan 18 10:50:24 does anyone else have the problem that the global menu is hardly clickable on the nexus7 with current raring? and a corrupted background during installation? Jan 18 10:50:42 oh, kind of overread it Jan 18 10:50:47 but thank you all for the usefull answers. Jan 18 10:51:00 iceroot: Good luck, and happy hacking. Jan 18 10:51:06 dholbach, the background is known, not sure xnox works on a fix already Jan 18 10:51:18 it happens since we switched the installer to compiz Jan 18 10:51:31 iceroot: You may find that some software has a whole lot of assumptions that "Hey, you're on ARM, that means you're v7 with thumb2 and neon and, and, and..." Jan 18 10:51:42 my global menu is fine apart from the times where it isnt ... due to the xinput bug Jan 18 10:51:48 iceroot: (At build time that is) Jan 18 10:52:04 currently not working to troubleshoot / fix that corruption. Jan 18 10:52:05 iceroot: If you run into stuff like that, bug reports and patches welcome to both Debian and Ubuntu to fix broken upstreams. :P Jan 18 10:52:07 ogra_, I just opened firefox and tried to click on "Help" and then on "About" or something Jan 18 10:52:41 oh, i see what you mean Jan 18 10:52:59 the selection vanishes after the first menu item if you try to scroll down Jan 18 10:53:12 thats definitely a new one Jan 18 14:13:05 ogra_, mentioned your announcement in a couple of places :) Jan 18 14:15:07 thx ! Jan 18 14:15:48 what annoucement?;P Jan 18 14:16:59 smartboyhw, we'll have the nexus7 meetings again Jan 18 14:17:31 dholbach, ah. Got it in email Jan 18 14:26:10 anyone else noticed that netbase in raring doesn't install under sbuild because it tries to replace /etc/services and barfs? Jan 18 14:28:46 shiny Jan 18 15:07:27 wookey: That's not netbase's fault, it's schroot's. Jan 18 15:07:42 wookey: Comment out services and protocols from /etc/schroot/default/nssdatabases Jan 18 15:08:25 wookey: It's (incorrectly, IMO) copying in those files from the base system, then netbase wants to install them (since it, y'know, owns them), and boom. Jan 18 15:08:35 aha. that's what's going on. cheers. Jan 18 15:08:50 is there abug reported on that? it's breaking a load of my builds Jan 18 15:09:08 Probably not. I should just fix it in schroot upstream and let it trickle down. Jan 18 15:09:18 please do. Jan 18 15:09:21 I've been a bad man and been fixing it locally instead. Jan 18 15:09:42 yeah, I've founda few of those I did in quantal and fogot to file... Jan 18 15:10:01 come and bite me in the bum a second time Jan 18 15:16:41 infinity: can I overuse your SRU powers? Jan 18 15:17:03 hrw: If it's for the alsa-* stuff, I'll get to it after I've slept. Jan 18 15:17:19 infinity: thank you very much Jan 18 16:03:35 ogra_, meeting time? Jan 18 16:03:46 ogra_, in a different call myself, so can't join Jan 18 16:03:59 oh, right Jan 18 16:41:22 doko_: crosbbuild-essential-arm64 does not bring in pkgbinarymangler so clean sbuild builds end up with mismatch between build arch changelog and host arch changelog, so build packages won't install Jan 18 16:41:35 did you leave that out on purpose for some reason? Jan 18 16:42:08 I put it in because otherwise this happens. Jan 18 16:47:10 maybe I sent you a version with that missing? I which case apologies Jan 18 16:48:49 wookey: I removed it on purpose. Jan 18 16:48:58 Ah yes. I see the changelog comment. Yes it's not essential but without it nothing works Jan 18 16:49:13 wookey: Build your chroots with mk-sbuild. Jan 18 16:49:33 wookey: And "nothing works" is wrong. If you build BOTH your arches in the same sort of chroot, they both work together fine. Jan 18 16:50:00 OK, but in practice at least some stuff is going to come from the real archive Jan 18 16:50:07 and that all been mangled Jan 18 16:50:10 wookey: All your build environments should match. But there's no reason everyone else's need to match launchpad's. Cause people building custom packages should change version numbers. Jan 18 16:50:49 wookey: Your use case (using cross chroots to build archive versions) is, actually, a really tiny corner case. Port bootstraps don't happen THAT often. Jan 18 16:50:59 OK. so why doesn't sbuild-chreat-chroot put it in? Jan 18 16:51:12 For normal people, there's nothing build-essential about the weird things Ubuntu buildds do. Jan 18 16:51:29 Nobody uses sbuild-create-chroot. Jan 18 16:51:38 I had assumed that this was required in ubuntu world. I didn;t put it in the debian version, of course Jan 18 16:51:43 Even the Debian sbuild wiki docs tend to recommend mk-sbuild. :P Jan 18 16:51:54 (Which is from ubuntu-dev-tools) Jan 18 16:52:09 Hmm. I use sbuld-createchroot, seemed to make sense for doing sbuild builds Jan 18 16:52:27 mk-sbuild is much better maintained. Jan 18 16:52:36 we have far too many of these.... Jan 18 16:52:46 each with different set of useful features Jan 18 16:53:05 I'm tempted to drop sbuild-create-chroot from sbuild entirely, adopt mk-sbuild again, and Replaces: ubuntu-dev-tools. Jan 18 16:53:11 But that's a conversation for another day. Jan 18 16:53:30 sbuild should have a set of matching tools, that work for debian and ubuntu Jan 18 16:53:43 Anyhow. The take-home message is "Ubuntu buildd chroots are weird, we do weird things, that doesn't make our weird stuff build-essential, it just makes it essential if you want builds identical to ours". Jan 18 16:53:55 But I guess it's fair enough for ubuntu builds to require a tool from ubuntu-dev. Jan 18 16:54:05 Yes. OK, point taken Jan 18 16:54:22 And does avoid annoying diff between debian and ubuntu verions of build-essential Jan 18 16:54:51 I shall go an revise a load of instructions Jan 18 16:55:44 I guess a lintian check on crossbuilds for something aorund this might help avoid too much pain Jan 18 16:55:44 Seriously, just tell people to use mk-sbuild. Jan 18 16:55:54 that's what I mean by 'revise instructions' Jan 18 16:56:16 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrossBuilding Jan 18 16:56:24 But it's annoying if it's different for ubuntu Jan 18 16:56:34 I use mk-sbuild for both Ubuntu and Debian. Jan 18 16:56:38 And ubuntu-dev-tools is in Debian. Jan 18 16:57:06 yes, but its kind of daft if you need to install ubuntu dev tools to build a standard debian sbuild chroot Jan 18 16:57:09 Despite the name, it's got a lot of handy Debian tools. :P Jan 18 16:57:33 Nah. Jan 18 16:57:45 It's contentious for people who think the word Ubuntu is evil, but they can suck it up. Jan 18 16:57:54 You're installing something from the Debian archive and running a script. Jan 18 16:58:29 I don;t think it's evil, just rather illogical that the sbuild chroot creation tool is not the one in sbuild, but some other one from a package named as if it ought not to be relevant Jan 18 16:58:31 (But, like I said, I'm going to talk to rleigh about replacing sbuild-create-chroot with mk-sbuild and shipping it in sbuild) Jan 18 16:58:50 OK. I'll be perfectly happy if the good bits of those two are combined Jan 18 16:59:11 That's the right answer Jan 18 17:00:05 you are doing an excellent job of answering my questions today :-) Jan 18 17:04:38 infinity: btw did you see my nice new build output giving actualy reasons for failure on the summary page: http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/raring-arm64/status-bootstrap.html#summary Jan 18 17:04:54 major improvement in being able to see what still needs fixing Jan 18 17:05:46 "something went wrong"... Very informative. :) Jan 18 17:06:22 yes, room for improvement there, but grepping the line out of a build that is actually relevent is tricky Jan 18 17:06:55 it used to say 'dpkg-buildpackage died' which was about equally informative Jan 18 17:07:37 there is now nice structure for adding smarter regexes for typical build failures Jan 18 17:09:52 Anyhow. I should find a bed and attack it with some vigor. Jan 18 17:11:55 ogra_, ah nice. I may have misunderstood what marvin24 said a few days ago. I thought ac100 images were gone and that is why he had to test the 3.8 kernel with netboot **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 19 02:59:59 2013