**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 03 02:59:57 2009 Aug 03 03:00:19 dreadchicken: I created 4x6.xpm by hand using vi, with 4x6.pcf open in fontforge Aug 03 03:01:36 come to think of it, it probably should have its license reattached... presumably MIT license Aug 03 03:02:55 dreadchicken: 5x7 would be really nice too. it took me something like 1-2 hours to do 4x6. thought about making a converter for the next one, haven't gotten around to it Aug 03 03:03:19 and I have no idea who did 8x8 or how they did it Aug 03 03:04:27 ping ryan Aug 03 03:06:41 ... there was a MAJOR security flaw introduced into the latest HEAD Aug 03 03:09:46 hmm originally i was able to novacom -t open tty:// to get to my device. it was working i installed the openssh and when i rebooted and try to novacom i get unable to find device Aug 03 03:09:49 http://vikaskhera.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/javascript-based-animation-frameworks-and-libraries/ Aug 03 03:09:50 any ideas? Aug 03 03:12:57 do bookmarklets not work in the web browser or is it just me? Aug 03 03:13:17 I get an error saying "Cannot find an application which can open this file." Aug 03 03:17:35 thefoot: do you have it in dev mode? Aug 03 03:22:37 rwhitby yes i do Aug 03 03:25:32 brb Aug 03 03:31:50 well a reboot of my computer helped Aug 03 03:35:28 success! Aug 03 03:35:38 now that i have openssh installed i can turn of dev mode and still access right? Aug 03 03:42:28 stop PmConnectionManager = start not found... Aug 03 03:42:34 i mean stop not found Aug 03 03:43:00 any ideas why Aug 03 03:49:13 anyone around? Aug 03 03:49:30 thefoot: someone is always around. :D Aug 03 03:49:56 well I'm following directions on how to enabled tethering. i'm on the step where you stop PmConnectionManager but when I execute that command it says stop: not found Aug 03 03:50:08 i'm currently SSH'd into the phone.. any ideas? Aug 03 03:50:25 thefoot: perhaps look at the mytether homebrew tethering app? Aug 03 03:50:37 http://www.isyougeekedup.com/palm-pre-how-to-guide-to-enable-tethering/ Aug 03 03:50:39 i can't use that? Aug 03 03:51:01 you probably can, just saying that installing the homebrew app is probably easier Aug 03 03:51:29 thefoot: the app allows you to tether over wifi, bluetooth, or usb Aug 03 03:52:42 wget -qO- http://mytether.net/install.php | /bin/sh Aug 03 03:52:45 right? Aug 03 03:53:41 thats one way Aug 03 03:53:45 or, that is the way Aug 03 03:54:12 thanks gkatsev so since im SSH'd using the unprivelaged user i created i need to sudo wget -qO- http://mytether.net/install.php | /bin/sh Aug 03 03:54:15 i like the wifi option, it basically turns the phone into the mifi thing Aug 03 03:54:27 right? Aug 03 03:54:29 yes Aug 03 03:54:37 odd i get a bunch of permission denied.. Aug 03 03:54:52 thefoot: move the sudo to after the pipe Aug 03 03:55:04 lol duh Aug 03 03:55:52 so how are you tehtering? usb? Aug 03 03:56:14 wifi Aug 03 03:56:35 thefoot: do you know what the mifi device is? Aug 03 03:56:55 essentially using ur phone as the access pt? Aug 03 03:57:18 yep Aug 03 03:57:55 and sprint and verizon both have a mifi thing, which is a router/evdo modem which you can buy for like $100 with a $50 a month data plan Aug 03 03:58:14 and with this, you wont need to Aug 03 03:58:27 also, i like it because there are no more cables needed Aug 03 03:58:33 and bluetooth sucks, so... yeah Aug 03 03:59:24 i see. got it installed hmm why dont i see options to set wep key Aug 03 03:59:43 ahh crap installed the old version Aug 03 03:59:59 lol Aug 03 04:00:15 i should update my version Aug 03 04:01:15 gotta donate if you havent alrdy Aug 03 04:02:38 how long does it take to grab an IP addy hmm.. Aug 03 04:03:50 >.< Aug 03 04:04:08 oh well, good enough for me Aug 03 04:04:09 okay new issue when my phone goes to sleep i lose connection Aug 03 04:04:11 lol Aug 03 04:04:23 what's the suggested method of preventing that Aug 03 04:04:39 um... make it not go to sleep as often? Aug 03 04:04:52 3 min is the max? Aug 03 04:06:14 that can't be right Aug 03 04:06:40 Is this legal? http://pimpmypre.com/ - User asked me to upload my app with them. Aug 03 04:06:58 Won't that kinda piss off Palm? Aug 03 04:18:38 thatdude: I don't think Palm as made any claims to "you're not allowed to have a Palm Pre app site" or anything Aug 03 04:18:46 though that site looks awfully amateurish and shitty ;> Aug 03 04:31:19 zomg: agree Aug 03 04:34:50 wow, i slack for a few days and terminal is all different Aug 03 04:36:35 zomg: the SDK terms say you're not allowed to distribute your apps outside of the Palm app catalog Aug 03 04:37:13 except for "testing" right? Aug 03 04:39:08 "some random guy" in this channel some days ago said they spoke with Chuq at the Palm meetup, and Palm wasn't concerned about freeware open source app testing areas. Aug 03 04:39:23 (the "some random guy" asked not to be quoted) Aug 03 04:39:49 just don't set up a competing store Aug 03 04:41:41 thatdude: I personally wouldn't upload to anywhere that hasn't pledged to publish an open standard-format ipkg feed (like the one at preware.org) Aug 03 04:55:34 rwhitby: Ok, thanks for the heads up. Aug 03 04:56:02 I'm working on convincing pimpmypre.com to do just that. Aug 03 04:56:26 I believe I've convinced PreCentral. Aug 03 04:58:02 I'm going to open up my own open standard format ipkg feed Aug 03 04:58:06 actually 3 of them Aug 03 04:59:40 love the content on preware.org Aug 03 04:59:52 "It works!" :) Aug 03 05:03:31 rwhitby: When will preware.org go live? Aug 03 05:03:42 thatdude: preware.org is live Aug 03 05:03:54 the installer app and submission process are in design Aug 03 05:04:07 in the meantime, we have a git repo for submission, and ipkg command line for installer Aug 03 05:04:26 anyway to convert5 an ipkg feed to a set of web pages? Aug 03 05:04:27 thatdude: ipkg.preware.org is the feed site Aug 03 05:04:36 maybe even add a plugin/url handler Aug 03 05:04:52 tmzt: the Packages file has all the metadata needed Aug 03 05:04:57 right Aug 03 05:05:15 all though desktop files would be nice Aug 03 05:05:19 just noticed terminal 1.0.6 on preware? anyone know what changes were made? Aug 03 05:05:27 er 0.1.6 Aug 03 05:05:28 for icons, descriptions, mimetypes Aug 03 05:05:33 but Terminal and "ipkg -o /var list" is the current UI for preware.org :-) Aug 03 05:07:21 rwhitby: What's the command line for installing from the feed? Aug 03 05:07:53 ipkg -o /var Aug 03 05:08:17 thatdude: you need to add the feed to /var/etc/ipkg/preware.conf first Aug 03 05:08:55 It's there Aug 03 05:09:03 I have the following... Aug 03 05:09:08 src/gz all http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/preware/all Aug 03 05:09:09 src/gz armv7 http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/preware/armv7 Aug 03 05:11:11 anyone know how to query the GPS location from the shell, or via python? Aug 03 05:12:17 is there an ipkg palm service on the pre? Aug 03 05:12:22 thatdude: yep, that's the correct content Aug 03 05:12:29 rwhitby:What's the git repo link? Aug 03 05:12:42 thatdude: gitorious.org/webos-internals/preware Aug 03 05:12:52 is there an ipkg palm service on the pre? Aug 03 05:13:11 PreGame: only the service you already use in fileCoaster. Aug 03 05:13:28 we're going to build one for preware Aug 03 05:13:44 i'm lost Aug 03 05:13:55 how can you do an ipkg update without rooting and adding your own service? Aug 03 05:14:01 Rick__ and destinal are working on the service Aug 03 05:14:05 you can't. Aug 03 05:14:31 Hey PreGame. Thanks for the info rwhitby. Aug 03 05:14:37 there is no way you can install packages that require root (like Terminal) without having used root at least once to do it. if that was not the case, it would be a huge unacceptable security hole Aug 03 05:15:04 so the talk in the dev section on an update handler is only for rooted pre's with a service for the ipkg? Aug 03 05:15:38 some packages don't require root? Aug 03 05:15:47 most of them don't Aug 03 05:16:02 ... where have you been tmzt? Aug 03 05:16:02 to install? Aug 03 05:16:07 correct Aug 03 05:16:11 you install with the sdk Aug 03 05:16:20 palm-install.bat Aug 03 05:16:21 wouldn't /usr/lib/ipkg have to be writable Aug 03 05:16:22 ah Aug 03 05:16:28 so it still uses root Aug 03 05:16:29 I was poking through /dev/ and /proc and didn't see any gps devices.. maybe it's connected through one of the i2c ports? Aug 03 05:16:41 or tty? Aug 03 05:16:54 it's probably serial Aug 03 05:17:32 bzhou * r10527 optware/trunk/make/bind.mk - bind: 9.6.1 -> 9.6.1-P1 Aug 03 05:17:37 micah, why not just query the location service that palm wrote for you ? Aug 03 05:18:19 that's what I'm trying to figure out how to do.. Aug 03 05:18:28 only I don't want an app to do it. Aug 03 05:18:34 background from the os.. Aug 03 05:18:36 oh -luna-send or dbus-send ... i think those are the apps you can use Aug 03 05:18:51 I'm looking to make a service that I can ping to get back a location. Aug 03 05:19:02 yeah, and i am saying .. from the commandline Aug 03 05:19:09 if it's dbus you can use python Aug 03 05:19:09 you can get the location Aug 03 05:19:11 use palms built in gps code Aug 03 05:19:13 and luna is dbus Aug 03 05:19:29 okay, I'll look at the dbus stuff then.. that's what I was looking for, some direction to head. Thanks! Aug 03 05:19:44 look at com.palm.location Aug 03 05:19:48 Night fellas. Aug 03 05:20:21 okay, I appreciate the hint. Aug 03 05:21:34 Komodo or Eclipse? Aug 03 05:24:03 * thatdude|away rolls into bed Aug 03 05:24:35 tmzt: ipkg -o /var uses /var/usr/lib/ipkg Aug 03 05:24:45 (which is writable always) Aug 03 05:32:25 micah: Aug 03 05:32:27 luna-send -n 1 palm://com.palm.location/getCurrentPosition {} Aug 03 05:32:59 awesome.. Aug 03 05:33:17 Am having trouble with adding a drive to my emulator :( Followed the instructions on the wiki and linux boot lists both drives, but Virtua WebOs still shows only .1GB as disc size (five homebrew programs and it fills) I tried a *.vdi file thought that was an issue tried multiple ways of converting to vdmk (as the drive installed by SDK is vdmk) finally converted to via Vbox clone tool but still doesn't work. Has anyone done Aug 03 05:33:43 epv: since I'm probably going to parse it in python I should use the python API, right? Aug 03 05:34:18 sure, you can do it with anything, it just returns json Aug 03 05:34:39 coolio.. easy Aug 03 05:35:05 you could parse it with sed if you wanted. :) Aug 03 05:35:16 good point. Aug 03 05:35:46 what's a good way to send emails out since there's no sendmail? Nail? Aug 03 05:36:42 if you're doing python already maybe try python smtplib? Aug 03 05:36:58 yeah.. could do that. Aug 03 05:37:06 but what if I used sed? :) Aug 03 05:37:09 haha Aug 03 05:37:57 maybe you could do it minimally with netcat which is already installed, but ew Aug 03 05:38:46 helo Aug 03 05:38:56 yeah, like that :) Aug 03 05:39:12 yeah.. I suppose.. although error catching would be impossible.. I guess I don't care much. Aug 03 05:39:15 just stream it over Aug 03 05:39:39 smtplib sounds like a better plan Aug 03 05:40:22 or if you're just trying to get your phone's location periodically, have something running elsewhere that ssh's to your phone and runs the luna-send command, then parses it elsewhere Aug 03 05:40:41 nail seems to work pretty well.. huh.. never tried it before. Aug 03 05:42:02 NERGAL_JAF23323: did you create a large virtual box virtual disk? Aug 03 05:42:15 and access it through /dev/hdb ? Aug 03 05:42:30 and use the optware-bootstrap script to get it mounted? Aug 03 05:43:09 whats good Aug 03 05:43:10 hey whats up Aug 03 05:43:43 R I did not do the last two things can you link me the opt mount (if it's just the optware that's already listed (http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Next_steps) then yes I did Aug 03 05:44:15 dunno Aug 03 05:44:29 NERGAL_JAF23323: cat /proc/partions and cat /proc/mounts and pastebin the output Aug 03 05:45:29 not able to cd into hdb Aug 03 05:45:29 aye rw, can u post swapon -s Aug 03 05:45:29 or anyone, heh. Aug 03 05:45:46 hdb is a device Aug 03 05:45:54 it should be mounted , to a folder. Aug 03 05:45:59 oops ;) new to lin :) Aug 03 05:46:27 where do u see hdb? Aug 03 05:46:37 in /dev Aug 03 05:46:49 ooooooo dev=devices :P Aug 03 05:47:16 i see no hdb Aug 03 05:47:22 dunno u on ur home Aug 03 05:48:42 cd /dev lists hda hda1 hdb hdc (etcetera). how do I mount drive :-/ sorry to be a n00b but we were all noo once :) Aug 03 05:49:31 NERGAL_JAF23323: if there is no /dev/hdb, then you didn't connect the drive in virtualbox Aug 03 05:49:50 has anyone gotten mytether 1.5 to work? it seems no matter what I do, the app ever things usbnet is enabled Aug 03 05:50:04 no there is a dev/hdb but "phone" doesn't see it (linux sees it) Aug 03 05:50:28 nhahn nhahn try #webosdev on efnet Aug 03 05:50:39 nhahn whats ur swapon -s show Aug 03 05:53:34 ok found command "mount" what is my mount point currently cmd I have will be mount /dev/mdb but what is mountpoint ? Aug 03 05:55:46 df -h Aug 03 05:56:43 ok ran that /dev/hdb is listed there under /opt Aug 03 05:57:08 NERGAL_JAF23323: so you have /dev/hdb mounted as /opt ? Aug 03 05:57:20 Rw yes Aug 03 05:57:33 then your problem is solved, right? Aug 03 05:57:55 ok so it should not show up on the "phone" itself only in the linux cmd Aug 03 05:58:01 (assuming you created the virtual disk large enough) Aug 03 05:58:12 1.7 gb Aug 03 05:58:38 NERGAL_JAF23323: ah, are you actually running out of space in /var/usr/palm/applications, rather than /var/opt ? Aug 03 05:59:01 I think so but Can't understand how i've used "332 Aug 03 05:59:08 .2 M" Aug 03 06:01:09 delete all apps and still using 330.6M on / driv e :-/ Aug 03 06:02:45 ok gonna go back and try this again must've effed up somewhere to make so much be being used Aug 03 06:03:00 maybe loaded git in wrong place Aug 03 06:03:59 Thanks for your help I Aug 03 06:04:04 'll prob be back Aug 03 06:21:30 id like to replicate the swap issue today Aug 03 06:22:12 have any of you guys have the new 1.1.0 update make your alert tone so loud it blew your speaker? Aug 03 06:22:31 heh Aug 03 06:22:36 hey guys, i have 15 rows, and upon tapping the row, i'd like a drawer to open up for each row Aug 03 06:22:47 no Aug 03 06:22:49 heh Aug 03 06:23:08 CorpX we got #webos too Aug 03 06:23:19 :( Aug 03 06:23:24 nah Aug 03 06:23:28 ppl dev'ing too Aug 03 06:26:39 do bookmarklets not work in the web browser or is it just me? Aug 03 06:26:41 I get an error saying "Cannot find an application which can open this file." Aug 03 06:29:53 Technobabble: are you sure it blew your speaker? The new alert sounds are more muffled. Try playing some music Aug 03 06:29:53 and see if the speaker really is messed up, or if your just hearing the new tones. Aug 03 06:30:09 yeah, i tried playing mp3s as well Aug 03 06:30:57 pure tones can put a lot of power into a speaker at seemingly low volumes. A sine is really high duty cycle in comparison to music. Aug 03 06:31:05 and it's crackly Aug 03 06:37:11 Well, thats not good. Random question: if you take the battery cover off and look at the speaker, is it clean? Aug 03 06:37:11 Somehow mine ended up with a bunch of specks of some sort on it that were crackling around at high volumes. I Aug 03 06:37:11 cleaned it off and it worked better. Aug 03 06:37:30 Sorry, but to answer your question: No, my speaker wasn't blown by the new alert tone from the update. Aug 03 06:38:12 no, nothin in there but a little lint from my pocket Aug 03 06:39:28 Oh well.... that kinda sucks. Aug 03 06:41:23 i called palm's tech support today, got a series of indonesians who were no help at all. i'll take it to a sprint store tomorrow Aug 03 06:41:50 Sounds like a plan. Its not something they could really help you over the phone with anyway. Aug 03 06:42:09 i was more interested in knowing if it was something they'd heard of before Aug 03 06:42:17 Ah. Aug 03 06:50:29 Silly question: how do I take a ss in the emulator? Aug 03 06:50:40 what? Aug 03 06:50:46 Is there a quick and easy way to completely wipe my Pre off and start fresh? Aug 03 06:50:46 screenshot Aug 03 06:50:54 WebOS Doctr Aug 03 06:50:55 Doctor Aug 03 06:51:05 1.1 has really been screwing up. crashing 3-8 times a day. Aug 03 06:51:10 that's the name of it! thanks Aug 03 06:58:28 Has anyone else had that same problem? Aug 03 06:59:02 Not that I've heard of. Aug 03 06:59:51 Precentral has quite a few people that have been having the issue. I'm just going to go for broke and wipe it Aug 03 06:59:58 and hope that reinstalling 1.1 will fix it. Aug 03 07:00:06 It's only been happening since 1.1.. Aug 03 07:01:05 anyone here up for helping with a git push problem? Aug 03 07:01:34 Sorry, I don't know anything about git. Aug 03 07:03:24 doodits: are you sure you haven't overclocked it? Aug 03 07:04:05 I have at one point, and it worked great for weeks. Then 1.1 came along and it started. Aug 03 07:04:13 I reversed the OC and set it to stock Aug 03 07:04:33 my phone's never gotten hot to the touch prior Aug 03 07:04:59 Interesting; mine gets hot all the time, never oc'd. Aug 03 07:05:24 Just happens from using the phone for an extended period of time. Aug 03 07:05:28 it's gotten hot while tethering.. Aug 03 07:05:43 But i only ever tethered within the last few days Aug 03 07:05:52 and that was AFTER the first bit of crashing Aug 03 07:07:55 it was crashing about a week prior to the tethering/heat from tethering Aug 03 07:24:44 is anyone here from the webos-internals team? Aug 03 07:25:49 Who are the webos-internals team? Aug 03 07:26:19 those that commit on gitorious Aug 03 07:26:28 Oh, ok. Aug 03 07:26:56 i created a patch but can't find any info on where to post it to Aug 03 07:27:40 ok, i may have finally found the contact info Aug 03 07:27:53 i know that rwhitby talks about it a lot, not sure if he's the contact though Aug 03 07:28:04 Is this page helpful at all? http://www.webos- Aug 03 07:28:04 internals.org/wiki/Applying_Patches#Information_for_developing_patches Aug 03 07:30:35 Meh, work tomorrow. Time for bed. Hope that helps synthmole. Aug 03 07:31:17 yeah, just found the contact email about this at the bottom of the wiki. see you later Aug 03 07:32:54 well, I was going to ask before I got disconnected, does any havea way to allow editing programs live on the device, find a problem make an edit? Aug 03 07:33:01 that's quilt right? Aug 03 08:02:01 yes, using quilt Aug 03 08:02:57 you tell quilt to monitor a change to a file, make the edit, and you then have a patch Aug 03 08:03:14 you then need to restart services to see the changes Aug 03 08:08:06 synthmole: ping Aug 03 08:08:16 yup Aug 03 08:09:40 I was thinking more or a wysiwyg thing Aug 03 08:09:43 could be cool Aug 03 08:09:50 (click to edit this app) Aug 03 08:11:29 synthmole: you were looking for me? Aug 03 08:11:53 i believe so. looking for info on committing to gitorious Aug 03 08:12:05 yep, what do you have ready to contribute? Aug 03 08:12:31 patch for amazon_evdo. slightly different than what was posted on the wiki Aug 03 08:13:13 i assume that it needs to be added to modifications Aug 03 08:15:00 can you pastebin the patch please so we can make sure it's well formed? Aug 03 08:17:13 ok, hold on Aug 03 08:18:33 Is there a way to force the webos doctor to reset? Aug 03 08:18:47 i'm just stuck at the "connect pre via usb" page Aug 03 08:18:56 next is greyed out. Aug 03 08:20:05 pasted Aug 03 08:21:03 url? Aug 03 08:21:11 http://webos.pastebin.com/d7890e9 Aug 03 08:21:51 synthmole: what's your gitorious username? Aug 03 08:21:59 Sivan Aug 03 08:22:23 synthmole: done Aug 03 08:22:46 thanks Aug 03 08:31:15 synthmole: thanks for your contribution - feel free to convert any of the others that are on the wiki :-) Aug 03 08:32:00 ok, i suppose i'll just update the page for the current modification? it's a little different and there is no patch Aug 03 08:51:13 synthmole: yeah, just add the URL for the patch on that page and note how it is different,. Aug 03 08:51:32 ok Aug 03 10:08:09 morning everyone Aug 03 11:28:55 good morning everyone Aug 03 11:35:55 mornin Aug 03 11:39:12 morning Aug 03 11:39:35 looks like one of my sms shortcuts may be contributing to sms breaking with certain people :( Aug 03 11:40:12 * blau-mikeDG should be prevented from ever seeing the source code to any other apps Aug 03 11:40:39 i broke synching on my android phone, by trying to programatically add calendars using undocumented apis Aug 03 11:40:46 a few times Aug 03 11:41:46 and now i keep noticing that shortcuts to hidden apps eventually dissapear :( Aug 03 11:41:54 blau-mikeDG, are you familiar with list widgets? Aug 03 11:42:19 a bit, ive done some basic stuff, havent done anything with widgets inside each row yet though Aug 03 11:42:41 nor have i used the add features Aug 03 11:42:47 ive used slide erasing though Aug 03 11:42:48 and reorder Aug 03 11:43:01 you familiar with the property addItemLabel: "Add..." Aug 03 11:43:09 :( Aug 03 11:43:29 trying to figure out why my updateFeeds method is being called whenever you tap add... Aug 03 11:43:40 i know Mojo.Event.listAdd is called but I do not have such a method :) Aug 03 11:47:05 what is updateFeeds set as? Aug 03 11:47:07 the itemcallback? Aug 03 11:47:57 i am not sure lol Aug 03 11:48:10 lol Aug 03 11:49:09 think im giving up on the genericness of my app Aug 03 11:49:24 im starting to get into some annoying crap that needs full updates now Aug 03 11:49:29 no it is not blau-mikeDG Aug 03 11:50:02 the power button on my pre broke this weekend Aug 03 11:50:24 coincidentally it happened a few hours after i spilled some water on my jeans Aug 03 11:50:25 hope its not water damage :/ Aug 03 11:50:39 http://webos.pastebin.com/m7d98f166 Aug 03 11:52:02 thats weird Aug 03 11:52:13 thats the only place you call update feeds? Aug 03 11:52:13 and it gets called numerous times Aug 03 11:52:38 blau-mikeDG, yep Aug 03 11:52:44 You should only create a request object if you need the subscription request to persist beyond the lifetime of the scene, or if you need to access services from outside a scene assistant Ñ for example, in an application assistant or a stage assistant. When using a service request object, you are responsible for managing the object and destroying it when it is no longer needed. Aug 03 11:52:45 I thought javascript couldnt destroy objects? Aug 03 11:54:03 blau-mikeDG, do they mean obj = undefined; Aug 03 11:59:15 brb Aug 03 12:00:04 goodmorning all Aug 03 12:00:21 morning Aug 03 12:00:24 brb need to reboot Aug 03 12:00:31 k Aug 03 12:10:06 back Aug 03 12:10:11 morning atlanta Aug 03 12:10:11 :) Aug 03 12:11:05 hey there Aug 03 12:11:05 wsup Aug 03 12:13:45 not much, fighting with this damn webos book :D Aug 03 12:14:33 i keep forgetting to download the latest version from safari Aug 03 12:15:03 can you guys see these errata changes?http://oreilly.com/catalog/errataunconfirmed.csp?isbn=9780596155254 Aug 03 12:15:19 just wondering if I am the only one submitting errors or if it only shows your own submissions heh Aug 03 12:17:24 blau-mikeDG, I think I see the issue, they never tell you to setup the EventListener for the listAdd Aug 03 12:17:33 just tried adding that to see if that fixed my problem :D Aug 03 12:23:54 jcrawford: you tore that book up i see Aug 03 12:23:54 lol Aug 03 12:23:55 ok so adding that event listener makes the drawer open, however I am still having that issue with the counts changing and updateFeeds being called over and over again Aug 03 12:23:59 atlanta, lol Aug 03 12:24:01 yea i seen them Aug 03 12:24:07 tons of errors in the production version :D Aug 03 12:24:15 I just found yet another error that I will be adding Aug 03 12:26:02 sad that all of these errors made it past the "rough cuts" Aug 03 12:26:21 lol Aug 03 12:26:22 true Aug 03 12:26:29 i was thinking about buying it but NAHHHH Aug 03 12:26:56 atlanta, if they print in it's current form it will get a lot of *bad* reviews due to all the technical errors Aug 03 12:27:05 that or they will follow with a 2nd ed in a month Aug 03 12:27:15 and piss off all those who bought the 1st ed Aug 03 12:27:17 yeah its annnoying Aug 03 12:27:35 yeah pretty much with alot of book s Aug 03 12:27:43 ill just use the dev forums at palm Aug 03 12:27:56 probably your best bet for help from others Aug 03 12:28:00 but there docs also suck Aug 03 12:28:44 ive been considering doign a charge back Aug 03 12:28:48 well honestly i have gone through a lot of tech books as that is how i have learned everything i know. I personally have not seen a book with as many technical errors as this Aug 03 12:29:03 the book is pretty friggen useless and annoying in its current state Aug 03 12:29:05 spelling errors is one thing but missing code that the reader has to figure out is missing is *bad* Aug 03 12:29:18 that and they are telling you to use depreciated methods Aug 03 12:29:35 jcraw: havave you been happening to keep a list of issues? Aug 03 12:29:48 such as Mojo.Log.info("this is a ", this.string. " string. Blah Blah"); Aug 03 12:29:59 blau-mikeDG, have been reporting them in the Errata Aug 03 12:30:13 oh cool Aug 03 12:30:20 did know there was something like that Aug 03 12:30:25 they should be using Mojo.Log.info("this is a %s string. Blah Blah", this.string); Aug 03 12:30:42 the first way is depreciated Aug 03 12:30:48 and will probably fade out of Mojo Aug 03 12:31:13 wow, you did a great job Aug 03 12:31:16 i wish I could debug webos apps line by line with a debugger :D Aug 03 12:31:32 would be easier to find this bug that is causing updateFeeds to be called over and over Aug 03 12:31:42 thanks blau-mikeDG, figured I would report them as I found em Aug 03 12:31:52 those are all within the first 100 pages too Aug 03 12:32:37 jcraw: did you try palm host? still not sure if thts public Aug 03 12:32:37 thats about the closest we get to debugging "visually" Aug 03 12:32:56 one of them is not needed there though. The one that says do I have to go to the appendix to get the method. They did not include it in the chapter since it is huge and what it is doing it not pertinent to the user in this case so they assume you will know to go grab the code and put it in place rather than telling you to specifically. Aug 03 12:33:17 yea I tried Palm Host, basically allows you to run in Safari Aug 03 12:33:29 I need to get the linux version, have the mac version but .... Aug 03 12:33:55 not sure how I would run under Safari on Linux heh Aug 03 12:38:25 ah does this method require you to pass the interval in seconds or milliseconds? Aug 03 12:38:25 this.controller.window.setTimeout( Aug 03 12:38:56 BINGO Aug 03 12:39:02 I have the interval set at 15 Aug 03 12:39:21 which it interprets as milliseconds that is why my counts are jumping all around and hitting that method so often :) Aug 03 12:46:12 ok back Aug 03 12:46:30 milliseconds i see you have found out Aug 03 12:46:30 lol Aug 03 12:49:18 any ideas on this errors guys? Aug 03 12:49:19 2009-08-03T12:45:56.573000Z [295] qemux86 user.err LunaSysMgr: {LunaSysMgrJS} com.palm.app.news: Error: Error: {"message": "Cannot call method 'bindAsEventListener' of undefined", "type": "non_object_property_call", "arguments": ["bindAsEventListener"], "name": "TypeError"}, file:///var/usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.news/index.html:0 Aug 03 12:49:28 * Templarian thinks for all the tired people this morning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0 Aug 03 12:49:35 does that mean my variable is undefined for some reason? Aug 03 12:51:13 http://webos.pastebin.com/maa8b527 Aug 03 12:51:43 why don't we use one of the pastebin services that puts a bot in the channel so when we paste and select the channel it announces the url rather than us having to copy/paste the url etc :D Aug 03 13:02:45 haha yea it means i am trying to bind to a method that does not exist Aug 03 13:02:53 yet another code fragment they fail to tell you to add... Aug 03 13:03:07 now to try to figure out what the code they failed to provide is supposed to do :D Aug 03 13:11:23 jcrawford, i thought you had to run your own bot that does that. there are services? Aug 03 13:52:16 Rubin, I thought there were services, maybe you do have to run your own bot, but if so I believe they provide the code for it i know it is LISP Aug 03 13:57:24 Rubin, http://paste.lisp.org/, read the left column it says if you want lisppaste in your channel email them Aug 03 13:57:33 i guess they run the service/bot :) Aug 03 14:05:49 tris, i -think- convert will do it. (font stuff) Aug 03 14:20:34 wb lmorchard Aug 03 14:27:30 What is the sym key on the sdk? Aug 03 14:28:45 alt i believe Aug 03 14:28:53 oh sorry no that is the orange key Aug 03 14:29:59 I am trying to get the little sym box with those special character pop up Aug 03 14:31:23 good morning all Aug 03 14:31:52 joesmith, try holding alt and hit a letter like n Aug 03 14:32:14 sorry not alt, the windows or meta key Aug 03 14:32:34 ty I knew how to do that, but I guess there is no way to see the full box? Aug 03 14:34:17 not sure personally :( Aug 03 14:58:01 joesmith: no way to do it Aug 03 14:58:13 thanks Aug 03 14:58:28 no problem Aug 03 14:58:39 that should be in the next sdk version Aug 03 14:58:52 im also going to work on getting a onscreen keyboard going this week Aug 03 14:59:31 that should be fun Aug 03 15:01:12 oh that's right atlanta works for palm hehe Aug 03 15:01:25 atlanta, get them to hire me for the framework team but allow for me to work from Boston :D Aug 03 15:01:30 that would be fantastic lol Aug 03 15:01:40 I cannot move to the CA area Aug 03 15:02:09 jcrawford: nope i dont Aug 03 15:02:25 i have a insider just a little Aug 03 15:02:27 atlanta, liar :D Aug 03 15:02:34 me no palm lol Aug 03 15:02:36 thought it was you who was on the sdk team Aug 03 15:02:44 hrmph who was it then lol Aug 03 15:02:50 * jcrawford has a bad memory :D Aug 03 15:02:59 lol could have been no time Aug 03 15:03:07 work and school kills me Aug 03 15:03:13 jcrawford: who needs memory when you have fully accessible logs with search? Aug 03 15:03:27 gkatsev, pfft i doubt i have logging on with xchat :D Aug 03 15:03:36 jcrawford: no, this channel is logged Aug 03 15:03:43 oh hell now you tell me Aug 03 15:03:48 lol Aug 03 15:03:56 jcrawford: /t Aug 03 15:04:01 there should be some huge disclaimer... THIS CHANNEL IS LOGGED STUPID QUESTIONS WILL BE REMEMBERED!!! :) Aug 03 15:04:41 who reads topics these days :D Aug 03 15:04:54 whoever doesnt, should. :D Aug 03 15:06:04 yea tell me now :D Aug 03 15:06:15 you cannot search on that site though, just directory listing of text files Aug 03 15:06:23 jcrawford: use firefox? Aug 03 15:06:27 yes Aug 03 15:06:30 use google to search the site Aug 03 15:06:48 site:urls_of_logs search query Aug 03 15:06:49 hrm ok Aug 03 15:07:12 :D Aug 03 15:08:59 lol Aug 03 15:09:55 can't find it all well not a big deal :D Aug 03 15:13:11 PreGame, so what game are you developing :D Aug 03 15:39:53 my daily question: What are the handbrake output settings to get a video the Pre will play? Aug 03 15:47:02 It's not the most relevant of things but I'm making perl build on the pre: http://pastie.org/569837 Aug 03 16:10:32 jjore: did you know optware has perl already? -- or was there some other reason you're building it Aug 03 16:18:45 Smoking it, I guess Aug 03 16:21:48 got a new pre Aug 03 16:22:10 but it has crazyy seperation between the screen and body Aug 03 16:22:36 and makes a clicking sound when i open it Aug 03 16:23:25 ugh Aug 03 16:30:00 http://josephcrawford.com/2009/08/03/review-webos-resources/ Aug 03 16:39:37 jcrawford: thanks for listng me in your article... even though i dont deserve it Aug 03 16:41:03 bzhou * r10528 optware/trunk/make/apr.mk - apr: 1.3.6 -> 1.3.7 Aug 03 16:43:43 PuffTheMagic: don't be modest this is open source, it's how you get recognition (plus everyone wins). Aug 03 16:45:33 im not really doing anything for recognition... i mean i do like to see that people use something i make, but everything i do I do for me first and then if other people use it then all the better Aug 03 16:47:41 PuffTheMagic: that's usually how open source works (always starts as a personal project and ends up expanding) Aug 03 16:53:26 Hey!! The new update makes it so you can't SSH into the pre!!! Aug 03 16:54:11 Has anyone here noticed this? Aug 03 16:55:28 there is a new update? Aug 03 16:55:35 the one at the end of july Aug 03 16:55:42 1.1? Aug 03 16:55:55 yes 1.1.0 Aug 03 16:56:07 the one from july 23rd Aug 03 16:56:13 I just updated to it and i can no longer SSH into my pre Aug 03 16:56:15 correct Aug 03 16:56:41 I havent heard of that issue Aug 03 16:57:11 you might want to start a thread over on the forums Aug 03 16:57:11 never seen that either Aug 03 16:57:21 mine continued to work just fine after update Aug 03 16:57:22 I was using the usb ssh thing Aug 03 16:57:40 is usbnet enabled? Aug 03 16:57:43 do you SSH through your usb connection to pre? Aug 03 16:57:50 yep I do Aug 03 16:57:56 Idk about others Aug 03 16:58:06 and you have 1.1 and it still works? Aug 03 16:58:14 no problems at all Aug 03 16:58:26 and you still it JUST CHARGE when you plug it in? Aug 03 16:58:40 I set mine to ssh only via usb for security purposes, and yes just charge Aug 03 16:59:01 me too, but since this update it doesnt seem to work anymore? Aug 03 16:59:08 did you install a ssh client on your pre like dropbear or openssh Aug 03 16:59:11 its port 222 correct? Aug 03 16:59:25 could be 2222 if you used olllld instructions Aug 03 16:59:42 yes default but I changed mine to 22 Aug 03 16:59:59 default is 222 Aug 03 17:00:01 hmmm. Aug 03 17:00:11 mine is 22 b/c I changed it Aug 03 17:00:29 do you have dropbear or openssh? Aug 03 17:00:44 on the phone? Aug 03 17:00:48 yes Aug 03 17:00:58 lemme look at the tutorial again, i forget which path i chose Aug 03 17:01:34 did you install an ssh client, or just use novacomd Aug 03 17:01:53 could the IP have reset? Aug 03 17:02:23 in theory yes but not likely Aug 03 17:02:49 new update? Aug 03 17:02:50 do you have usbnet enabled? Aug 03 17:02:52 * jcrawford runs the updater Aug 03 17:03:03 novacom starts as soon as i plug in usb Aug 03 17:03:13 then i use putty on the pc side Aug 03 17:03:22 it used to work until i installed this new update Aug 03 17:03:34 can you link me to the directions you followed Aug 03 17:03:38 but ive also switched networks since then... but the ip should remain the same i thought Aug 03 17:03:58 i ssh via wifi mine still works after 1.1.0 update Aug 03 17:05:09 PuffTheMagic, you do deserve the recognition, you helped me get through some code I may not have been able to get through myself :) Aug 03 17:06:12 the tutorial was on the old webos wiki, the new one is so unlike the old one i can't find the exact page Aug 03 17:06:19 I wonder if I could convince my parents to drive three hours to Dallas, so can I go to predev camp Aug 03 17:06:39 how do I check the IP of my phone through usbnet? Aug 03 17:06:54 it used to be the standard 192.168.0.202 port 222 SSH through usb cable Aug 03 17:07:36 did you install the drivers for your os and enable usbnet Aug 03 17:08:15 yeah, it was working before, it just stopped today... two things different today, one i updated to 1.1.... two i am now on my home's local network Aug 03 17:09:03 do you see your phones network adapter? Aug 03 17:09:53 what would the devicename be? Aug 03 17:09:57 i do not think i see it anymore Aug 03 17:10:33 its named whatever you named it Aug 03 17:10:48 well crap its gone, i still have the virtualbox network but isnt that for the emulator? Aug 03 17:11:09 yes Aug 03 17:11:35 well then my network adapter is gone Aug 03 17:11:51 anyone have a usbnet setup tutorial handy? Aug 03 17:11:58 ok go to your services Aug 03 17:12:24 k Aug 03 17:12:39 and make sure palm is started Aug 03 17:13:01 Palm Novacom STARTED Aug 03 17:13:16 restart, maybe that will help Aug 03 17:14:05 you can always do this, you may not have enabled usbnet, or installed an ssh client http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Accessing_Linux_Using_Novaterm Aug 03 17:14:23 still failed Aug 03 17:14:38 what i dont understand is why it would work before if i had one of those problems Aug 03 17:15:40 not to point the finger but, it might be something you did (we all make mistakes) or your pre is special and likes frustrating you Aug 03 17:16:00 novaterm would give you access Aug 03 17:16:28 on another note, i edited the carrier string... and after 1.1 update, it went back to Sprint Aug 03 17:16:31 that is normal right? Aug 03 17:16:37 yes Aug 03 17:16:43 k good Aug 03 17:18:16 I still recommend creating a thread, over on precentral, you might get more help and ideas Aug 03 17:18:34 palm novacomd.exe is taking up a lot of CPU.... but thats expected as well Aug 03 17:19:48 I have heard that rebooting desktop and pre can make the connection populate Aug 03 17:49:49 Should I be using Eclipse ? Or is there a homebrew packager or editor Aug 03 17:57:42 FreeTim3: Use Komodo Edit. Aug 03 17:58:05 OK. Aug 03 17:58:16 http://webos.templarian.com/komodo/ (a lot of users use it here, if you have questions just ask). Aug 03 17:59:06 oh, woW Aug 03 17:59:08 Nice Aug 03 17:59:43 FreeTim3: the Addon is 100x better but it's in development still. Aug 03 18:01:27 sweet, i can read the webOS book on safari books online via northeastern. Aug 03 18:01:39 ill look at it when im off from work Aug 03 18:03:34 PuffTheMagic: i think your latest update, fixes the security flaw from yesterday Aug 03 18:03:36 cool - wish i could Aug 03 18:04:13 yeah Aug 03 18:04:21 Zuchmir2: me and destinal were talking about it Aug 03 18:04:42 Sup everyone Aug 03 18:04:50 sup dude Aug 03 18:05:06 Happy to be back home. Aug 03 18:05:20 ok, very good Aug 03 18:05:38 PuffTheMagic: Sup Puff ;) Aug 03 18:05:49 hey Aug 03 18:05:59 PuffTheMagic: How's the magic dragon? Aug 03 18:06:38 sitting in my car waiting for me Aug 03 18:07:06 PuffTheMagic: I released an updated version of Subway Map - Never got the orientation to work as I wanted to. Guess that will be working on the next update. Aug 03 18:07:35 nice Aug 03 18:09:36 When are we going to work on porting VLC to the Pre :D Aug 03 18:12:58 is there a reason to? Aug 03 18:13:30 something wrong with the video player it has? Aug 03 18:15:33 Only supports mp4, we need more video support. Aug 03 18:17:12 Just an idea. Aug 03 18:17:26 why not add support to the media player? Aug 03 18:17:32 im sure its based on an open app Aug 03 18:17:54 PuffTheMagic: That works too, that's an even better idea. Aug 03 18:18:16 PuffTheMagic: VLC can be run on a shell so you know what... time to test. Aug 03 18:18:40 im pretty sure the video player uses ffmpeg Aug 03 18:18:44 it should already support everything Aug 03 18:18:52 it probably just a matter of changing the file filter Aug 03 18:18:58 i believe it uses the DSPBridge to load the C64x+ DSP with the decoding algorithm .. Aug 03 18:20:21 bpadalino|work: are you sayuing the dsp can only decode mp4's? Aug 03 18:21:02 That's what I am understanding. Aug 03 18:21:30 do we "need" hw accelerated video decoding? Aug 03 18:22:42 Zuchmir2: since you added that commit to start dealing with strikethough Aug 03 18:22:45 it can be loaded with whatever algorithm you want - but h264 i think is the one that it comes with Aug 03 18:22:57 Zuchmir2: every once and a while my screen has a lines all over it Aug 03 18:24:30 while the OMAP is decent for an embedded processor .. i don't think it can do un-accelerated or specifically targeted video decompression on the ARM Aug 03 18:24:30 i am wondering what to do with the following while running bootstrap on the emulator: http://webos.pastebin.com/m2d6b8eef Aug 03 18:25:33 ignore that hdb doesn't exist ? Aug 03 18:27:46 this is when running the optware-bootstrap.sh and the script fails, does the script not matter on the emulator? Aug 03 18:30:14 nah, i think you should be able to run it on th emulator i thought Aug 03 18:30:26 but i don't see hdb in the file .. how far along does it get ? Aug 03 18:30:31 i can't imagine it just says that ? Aug 03 18:30:55 this is the full message: http://webos.pastebin.com/m3a07a097 Aug 03 18:31:01 gmanzelini: you should read the wiki page you got the script from Aug 03 18:31:11 it explains why u got the error and how to fix it Aug 03 18:31:51 PuffTheMagic: thx stupid me Aug 03 18:32:35 look at that! Aug 03 18:34:10 the bold doesn't pop out enough on the wiki page .. maybe we should or Aug 03 18:35:14 bpadalino|work: maybe a div should fall from the top or zoom in like car ads... nah i still wouldnt pay attention Aug 03 18:36:20 :) Aug 03 18:37:28 i do appologize for my stupid question and appreciate anything anyone in here has done to make this phone as incredibly easy to hack as it is :) Aug 03 18:39:09 gmanzelini: i think you can thank palm for putting the devmode code in plain text Aug 03 18:43:08 yeah, palm watches the channel since it's all pubically logged - so you can just thank them here Aug 03 18:45:01 puffthemagic: i actually found that code on their site once while googling Aug 03 18:45:18 lol Aug 03 18:45:40 sup guys Aug 03 18:47:11 tlz: the ceiling Aug 03 18:59:11 PuffTheMagic: vertical or horizontal? is strikethrough on? Aug 03 19:03:21 Zuchmir2: horizontal Aug 03 19:03:25 and no strikethough shouldnt be on Aug 03 19:04:12 hmm... personally haven't seen this, can u reproduce it? Aug 03 19:08:11 . Aug 03 19:17:59 Zuchmir2: it happens often enough that I could take a picture Aug 03 19:18:04 but dont do it every time Aug 03 19:18:13 and i've only seen it on the emu Aug 03 19:25:47 tris, you are a madman if you did that font by hand! i'm looking at using 5x7 pcf and convert to see if i can come up with a process. Aug 03 19:30:28 Zuchmir2: hey i was thinking Aug 03 19:30:35 is there any way we can just the mojo 2d canvas Aug 03 19:30:51 instead of drawing directly from the plugin? Aug 03 19:33:47 is rick_ here? Aug 03 19:34:10 No but I can text him if you need him, he must be busy at work. Aug 03 19:34:20 He will be on later. Aug 03 19:34:39 ~seen rick_ Aug 03 19:34:43 here's a question for you guys: dns and openvpn Aug 03 19:34:43 rick_ was last seen on IRC in channel #webos-internals, 2d 22h 3m 26s ago, saying: 'installed wireshark. Now have all non-fileserver non port 80 traffic moving into a 250 meg ring buffer. If it happens,I'll find it.'. Aug 03 19:35:05 Noo no its ok, I am working on the onscreen keyboard and I wanted to talk to him about his findings Aug 03 19:35:06 I've got openvpn working just peachy, but I can't for the life of me convince the phone to use different DNS servers Aug 03 19:35:27 so you can connect to your network? Aug 03 19:35:31 I've changed /etc/resolv.conf and /tmp/resolv.conf (dnsmasq's extra config file) and HUPed dnsmask Aug 03 19:35:42 yeah connects and I can touch internal hosts by IP no problem Aug 03 19:36:01 can you see any shared files? Aug 03 19:36:13 joesmith: on screen keyboard? when will it be out? Aug 03 19:36:13 like SMB shares? Aug 03 19:37:00 PuffTheMagic: my guess is you can play with the alpha channel, and choose a bg in mojo Aug 03 19:37:01 gkatsev: this pre app stages, but I have been working on it all day. Aug 03 19:37:24 Zuchmir2: thats not what i mean Aug 03 19:37:29 ... can you replicate it, in a way that i can see it myself Aug 03 19:37:39 Zuchmir2: mojo has a canvas we can do 2d drawing on Aug 03 19:37:45 it probably supports rendering text too Aug 03 19:37:45 PuffTheMagic: what did u mean Aug 03 19:38:08 so we could let mojo render everything Aug 03 19:38:22 dunno, try it Aug 03 19:38:24 dreadchicken: haha. didn't take that long. in theory FONT::FT2 should be able to do it: http://search.cpan.org/~caffiend/font_ft2_0.1.0/FT2.pm#SYNOPSIS but I can't grok all the options well enough to produce any reasonable output Aug 03 19:38:47 :t3rmin Someone said that they installed openvpn, connected to their home network and were able to stream their audio and video files. Aug 03 19:39:47 joesmith: I'd be happy just to resolve lcoal hosts :) Aug 03 19:39:54 s/lcoal/local/ Aug 03 19:39:54 lol Aug 03 19:39:55 t3rmin meant: joesmith: I'd be happy just to resolve local hosts :) Aug 03 19:40:52 I would be happy to tunnel traffic through it, and play media Aug 03 19:42:57 has anyone set up openvpn to run continuously without draining battery? Aug 03 19:44:23 why do you need vpn? Aug 03 19:46:27 * joesmith wishes he was clever enough to design a vpn application, that was at least as good as the iphones Aug 03 19:47:24 I am pretty jealous atm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOpsInrH7-Y Aug 03 19:49:21 PuffTheMagic: vpn would allow me to give the phone an unfiltered static IP Aug 03 19:49:40 which would (ideally) flip betwen evdo and wifi depending on what's up Aug 03 19:50:16 hadn't gone as far as to consider mounting remote filesystems, but it would be useful for that too for the same reason, I guess Aug 03 19:50:52 * czarphanguye wishes he could mount local mp3s Aug 03 19:51:39 * Templarian thinks lets start small and get obex working first hehe. Aug 03 19:53:01 Templarian: all we need for obex is for someone to make an ipk for Bluez's new obexd tool Aug 03 19:53:20 and then write mojo app to talk to it Aug 03 19:53:26 since obexd is dbus based Aug 03 19:53:31 it should be easy Aug 03 19:53:42 joesmith, i'm not that impressed with that Aug 03 19:54:00 I said at least as good Aug 03 19:54:12 i'm sure it won't be long before there's vnc for the pre Aug 03 19:54:24 and most of that stuff'll be skipped for us Aug 03 19:54:26 I dont mean bnc Aug 03 19:54:29 vnc Aug 03 19:54:36 dreadchicken: how were you planning on using convert/ImageMagick to convert the fonts? http://www.imagemagick.org/script/formats.php doesn't list pcf as a supported format Aug 03 19:55:29 I personally would like something as clean and easy to set up, but twice as good because its running on a pre! :p Aug 03 19:55:32 i found something earlier via google() which i'll have to re-dig out, was in a rush and didn't get a chance to play with it. Aug 03 20:21:28 I've got a question about processor scaling: I recently had to swap my phone (turned out later there was nothing wrong with it, but they couldn't figure out how to activate it...), and the new one won't let me change the scaling_governor Aug 03 20:22:11 every time I try to change it, through the command line or any script, such as the cpuspeed binary that clipcarl has made, it locks up immediately Aug 03 20:22:59 eek Aug 03 20:23:29 I played with scaling a lot with the old phone, and never had any problems Aug 03 20:24:25 i dont think we changed anything Aug 03 20:24:41 unless you were previously using 1.0 and in 1.1 it's different Aug 03 20:24:51 i'll ask, maybe we turned it off Aug 03 20:25:12 I did it in 1.0 and 1.1 on the old phone, the new one is at 1.1 Aug 03 20:25:22 it seems to be working fine for others in 1.1 Aug 03 20:25:26 dunno then Aug 03 20:25:27 did the bootloader change? Aug 03 20:25:31 same bits, same cpu, same bootloader Aug 03 20:25:37 can you put back the old kernel? Aug 03 20:25:45 i am suspecting operator error Aug 03 20:25:56 it's likely, but I'm at a loss Aug 03 20:26:00 tmzt: not a good idea Aug 03 20:26:08 why? Aug 03 20:26:17 if the kernel gets updated, it's usually for a reason Aug 03 20:26:20 haven't looked at the diffs though Aug 03 20:26:22 can get out of sync with the rest of userspace Aug 03 20:26:33 any ideas I can try? Aug 03 20:26:48 even echoing "ondemand" to scaling_governor locks it up Aug 03 20:26:58 if I wish to run a shell script from the UI, what is the best way to handle this? Aug 03 20:27:07 stubbs1: well then, dont do it Aug 03 20:27:10 but I can change the speed using scaling_setspeed just fine Aug 03 20:27:25 that's where I'm at, but it's no fun... Aug 03 20:27:30 has it ever occurred to you that we set up it that way for a reason? Aug 03 20:27:48 no, since the other phone didn't do that Aug 03 20:28:04 no i mean the scaling and the speed Aug 03 20:28:11 right Aug 03 20:28:27 with the other phone, I could use the ondemand governor all day long without any problems Aug 03 20:28:38 i dont remember the details, but i think something along the lines of 'instability' was a key component Aug 03 20:28:38 so 2.6.24 being used has to do with hotplug? Aug 03 20:28:40 gmanzelini: generally by writing a service for it that listens on dbus Aug 03 20:28:41 do you work for Palm? Aug 03 20:28:48 yes, kernel team Aug 03 20:28:52 ok Aug 03 20:29:33 I could understand if you had made it that way, but that doesn't seem to be the case, unless I've somehow got a different kernel on this new phone Aug 03 20:29:46 no, but you have a different cpu Aug 03 20:29:54 ah Aug 03 20:30:01 that would make a difference Aug 03 20:30:02 did 2.6.24 have something to with using hotplug? Aug 03 20:30:04 when was it changed? Aug 03 20:30:16 not saying there's really a difference, but sometimes when you're dealing with edge case instability, one can show up before the other Aug 03 20:30:32 gotcha Aug 03 20:30:37 but i really have no idea what your problem is Aug 03 20:30:46 ok, well thanks Aug 03 20:30:47 i seriously doubt it's any cpu variations Aug 03 20:30:51 not likely Aug 03 20:31:05 I've tried restoring it again with WebOS doctor with no difference Aug 03 20:31:08 anyway, you *really* dont want to mess around with the freq scaling Aug 03 20:31:20 what's so bad about it? Aug 03 20:31:20 as much as people will poke it anyway, it's not recommended Aug 03 20:31:25 if you don't mind educating me? Aug 03 20:31:26 or ondemand is not compatible with userspace changing it directly Aug 03 20:31:38 i dont know the details Aug 03 20:31:48 lsof |grep /sys might help there Aug 03 20:31:52 i don't really see the point of messing with cpu freq scaling since the phone spends 99% of its time asleep anyway.. if you're spending enough time awake to need to scale the cpufreq down on idle, you have other problems Aug 03 20:31:59 basically Aug 03 20:32:12 iirc, it makes things somewhat more unstable, which is an ongoing task to figure out why Aug 03 20:32:20 and it makes essentially no power saving differences in the end Aug 03 20:32:22 yes, the stability is a known issue Aug 03 20:32:30 it did seem to improve power saving a bit Aug 03 20:32:36 not really Aug 03 20:32:47 maybe a couple percentage, for certain use cases Aug 03 20:32:58 also, the stock ondemand governer takes too long spooling up the cpu Aug 03 20:33:01 did the last question go through? Aug 03 20:33:05 there's a noticable delay Aug 03 20:33:09 yeah Aug 03 20:33:11 did 2.6.24 have something to with using hotplug? Aug 03 20:33:20 tmzt: if you'd ask a real question, someone may answer you Aug 03 20:33:25 cannot parse question Aug 03 20:33:37 there's no context there Aug 03 20:33:52 well, thanks for the help geist Aug 03 20:33:56 sorry, I was typing it and got disconnected from screen Aug 03 20:34:14 I'm llloking at the patches for 1.1.0 and noticed hotplug (instead of udev I guess) Aug 03 20:34:14 no, it's not you getting disconnected, it's that the question doesn't have enough contet Aug 03 20:34:22 versus 1.0? Aug 03 20:34:36 no, udev is definitely there Aug 03 20:34:47 oh, then I'm not sure Aug 03 20:34:49 it's the only game in town now Aug 03 20:34:59 sigh Aug 03 20:35:14 super annoying for minimal builds Aug 03 20:35:24 they must have just put up source for everything you used or might have used Aug 03 20:35:38 tmzt: so are you saying that versus 1.0, 1.1 has hotplug as a new feature? Aug 03 20:35:53 no, i'm not Aug 03 20:35:59 okay, so what are you saying? Aug 03 20:36:24 it's on the source pages for 1.0.4 and 1.1.0 Aug 03 20:36:29 yes... Aug 03 20:36:31 I'm just not sure why it's listed there Aug 03 20:36:31 btw is it just me or did someone break the menu stuff in Terminal? Aug 03 20:36:41 you mean the hotplug project? Aug 03 20:36:46 or do you mean hotplug kernel feature? Aug 03 20:36:51 linux-hotplug Aug 03 20:36:57 userspace daemon Aug 03 20:36:57 oh that. i dunno Aug 03 20:37:01 ok Aug 03 20:37:17 may just be left over bits Aug 03 20:37:24 or maybe someone uses it for some reason Aug 03 20:37:25 that page is just GPL compliance, no? Aug 03 20:37:27 why you used 2.6.24 with patches has been a mystery for me since release Aug 03 20:37:40 if anyone used anything from it, you'd technically want to put it up there just to be compliance Aug 03 20:37:43 epv: exactly, so if we ever hacked it and it got into the fone it goes up there Aug 03 20:37:45 ^in Aug 03 20:37:52 tmzt: versus? Aug 03 20:38:08 yeah there's just this odd perception that that page is like the webos source code tree or something Aug 03 20:38:14 2.6.26 maybe? or a linux-omap git tag Aug 03 20:38:26 we've been working on this for a while now Aug 03 20:38:30 that stuff didn't exist back then Aug 03 20:38:38 it's just that the patch was against vanilla 2.6.24 but it was itself almost a different version Aug 03 20:38:43 but believe me, we're painfully aware that the world has moved into a different directly Aug 03 20:38:46 direction Aug 03 20:39:07 back 2 years ago mainline linux omap support was terrible, so we went off of TI's internal source tree Aug 03 20:39:13 which was .24 at the time Aug 03 20:39:23 ah Aug 03 20:39:44 unforunately they didn't really win the battle, and since then the opensource community has more or less implemented a parallel version of omap support Aug 03 20:39:51 we're trying to resolve that now, but it's a lot of work Aug 03 20:39:52 anyway, I don't see why downgrading kernel would cause userspace problems Aug 03 20:40:03 I can only diff diffs to see that Aug 03 20:40:05 tmzt: drivers out of sync with the daemon that tweaked it Aug 03 20:40:13 uh you can't? Aug 03 20:40:24 I mean in this specific case Aug 03 20:40:29 but that explaination makes sense Aug 03 20:40:31 yes, i mean in this specific case Aug 03 20:40:32 oh ok Aug 03 20:40:58 if we change the behvior of one of our homebrew drivers it can break the userspace component that talks to it Aug 03 20:41:20 I was looking at what would be needed to support 2d acceleration with drm inplace of fbdev, but that would require a newer kernel Aug 03 20:41:26 though we aren't tweaking the kernel much at all, so i kind of doubt it Aug 03 20:41:57 essentially if we roll a minor bump of the kernel in an OTA it's probably a bugfix Aug 03 20:42:01 and you'll really want it Aug 03 20:42:59 similarly we wont jack around with major features in the kernel without a big bump, probably Aug 03 20:47:59 stubbs1: the omap3 patches for the pre didnt implement anything in /proc/acpi Aug 03 20:48:05 looks like mux changes Aug 03 20:48:11 so i doubt cpufreq would work that way Aug 03 20:48:13 I certainly wouldn't downgrade Aug 03 20:49:00 epv: yes its broken Aug 03 20:49:02 its WIP Aug 03 20:49:11 dont use dev versions if you cant handle brokenness Aug 03 20:49:13 and yes, some things in sysfs did change Aug 03 20:49:33 it looks like what keys wake the device, but there's no context here Aug 03 20:49:36 i've been tracking head in an effort to help Aug 03 20:49:38 i'm not complaining Aug 03 20:49:51 tmzt: you dont need a newer kernel to implement drm Aug 03 20:50:44 most other committers have been happy to have reports of things not working correctly, since sometimes something breaks without being immediately noticed Aug 03 20:51:01 this is odd, internal changes to mmc although the mmc card is internal to the device Aug 03 20:51:17 unless there were problems with the filesystem on resume I can't see why this is here Aug 03 20:51:58 it's only "internal" in that it's soldered down and not socketed :) Aug 03 20:52:44 okay, that was confusing Aug 03 20:53:06 I mean changes that looked like they were to support allowing runtime changes of the mmc card when that's not even possible Aug 03 20:53:13 epv: this isnt necessaryily directed at you, but terminal aint at 1.0.0 yet, you can assume its broken all the time, and i would only care to hear about bug reports for releases Aug 03 20:53:15 but I see now that they are supporting resume better Aug 03 20:53:45 but im sure others dont have the opinion Aug 03 20:53:53 there's some new modem support though, which I would guess is related to (supported) tethering Aug 03 20:54:52 tmzt: why would the kernel need to be updated to support tethering when it already does support it Aug 03 20:55:02 tath's all, nothing directly related to cpufreq Aug 03 20:55:27 PuffTheMagic: not sure, I was just diffing the diffs, I would have to study the codebases themselves to have more detail Aug 03 20:55:57 PuffTheMagic: but it looks like it's moving support to the kernel, it might have been userpace before (based on the number of changes, like I said) Aug 03 20:56:20 tmzt: that makes no sense Aug 03 20:56:36 what doesn't? Aug 03 20:57:02 Pre does a number of things through the gadgetfs from userspace Aug 03 20:57:40 if this acm_tty is not a new driver than fine, but it's not quite the old g_serial driver either Aug 03 20:57:41 teathering will always require a combination of userland and kernel Aug 03 20:58:21 you need ipforwarding enabled and you need something to handle addresses Aug 03 20:58:42 its no different than setting up a linux box as a router Aug 03 20:59:55 I'm not talking about that kind of tethering, I'm talking about using the phone as a modem Aug 03 21:00:12 something it looks like will be/is officially support if the carrier has that enabled for your account Aug 03 21:03:06 and why cant /dev/ttyACM* be used for phone as modem already? Aug 03 21:03:24 i thought that was not to be talkes about? Aug 03 21:03:27 er talked. Aug 03 21:03:43 idk, its on the pre Aug 03 21:03:46 its internal related Aug 03 21:03:55 i meant wrt the policy from the topic. Aug 03 21:04:26 i thought that was gonna be removed Aug 03 21:04:43 not until a palm that's legally tetherable is available, afaik. Aug 03 21:05:02 on that day i've a lot of howtos to write. Aug 03 21:05:08 that is a stupid rule Aug 03 21:05:32 bttether, wifi tether, oh my! Aug 03 21:05:33 discussion of using ttyACM is not off-topic Aug 03 21:05:35 we can write plugins which are not supported by palm Aug 03 21:05:40 but we cant talk about teathering? Aug 03 21:05:51 PuffTheMagic: that's not the case Aug 03 21:06:10 rwhitby: we need wvdial in optware then Aug 03 21:06:12 :D Aug 03 21:06:23 PuffTheMagic: sure - talk to eno to get commit privs Aug 03 21:06:24 why, pppd is already there. Aug 03 21:06:50 bougyman: i've never used pppd by itself Aug 03 21:06:52 wvdial is just a pppd configurator, is it not? Aug 03 21:06:59 i've never used wvdial, just pppd Aug 03 21:07:04 it's ridiculously easy. Aug 03 21:07:10 bougyman: wvdial is easy too Aug 03 21:07:14 one or two confs in /etc/ppp and most of the stuff is defaults. Aug 03 21:07:15 but i've never tried witho out it Aug 03 21:07:22 then just pon connection Aug 03 21:07:42 idk... Aug 03 21:07:47 you can find pppd confs for most devices, so it's really just copy and go. Aug 03 21:08:09 how do you "dial" a number with pppd Aug 03 21:08:17 wvdial is great Aug 03 21:08:20 i thought pppd just handled the communication after you dial Aug 03 21:08:27 pon opens a connection. Aug 03 21:08:32 pppd can use connect scripts Aug 03 21:08:40 the connection script is in /etc/chatscripts, usually Aug 03 21:08:45 pon just does pppd call (connection) Aug 03 21:08:48 you define the chatscript in the /etc/ppp/provider file Aug 03 21:08:55 er /etc/ppp/peers/ conf Aug 03 21:09:18 so i need a peer for every number i call? Aug 03 21:09:19 thats crazy Aug 03 21:09:37 wvdial does this all automagically Aug 03 21:09:51 anyway, it's not rocket surgery, and no, there are variables you can use for regular ppp. Aug 03 21:10:21 webos already has working pppd and chatscripts, no? Aug 03 21:10:26 yes, it does. Aug 03 21:10:49 so then how do i dial a phone number from cli? Aug 03 21:11:00 with out editing configs? Aug 03 21:11:24 voice call? Aug 03 21:11:46 i dont care, i just want to see an example of how to dial a number from cli with ppp Aug 03 21:12:09 pppd ... connect 'chat AT OK ATDT123456' etc Aug 03 21:12:14 ppp is not used for voice Aug 03 21:12:27 ppp can dial a number Aug 03 21:12:27 I'm not sure how to do anything with the modem on Pre Aug 03 21:12:31 i can make my house phone ring Aug 03 21:12:41 i just wanted an example of how to dial Aug 03 21:12:48 i just gave you one Aug 03 21:13:00 i was trying to answer tmzt Aug 03 21:13:01 lsusb -v -v said there was a single endpoint with 64 byte packets Aug 03 21:13:06 on the Pre? Aug 03 21:13:09 what command did you use? Aug 03 21:13:44 pppd takes a commandline or config option "connect" whose argument is a command to spawn whose stdin/out fd's get connected to the device Aug 03 21:13:55 usually one uses "chat" which takes expect/send pairs as args Aug 03 21:14:15 but what tty device? Aug 03 21:14:19 that's what I'm asking Aug 03 21:14:20 epv: yeah see this seems like way more knowledge of ppp is needed Aug 03 21:14:29 wvdial Aug 03 21:14:30 and we are done Aug 03 21:14:32 this has nothing to do with ppp Aug 03 21:14:52 fine, what does device= in /etc/wvdial.conf or /etc/wvdial/wvdial.conf say? Aug 03 21:14:53 yes, if you want a wrapper around ppp to make it easier to use, that's fine Aug 03 21:14:56 or modem= Aug 03 21:15:00 I forget Aug 03 21:15:07 hrmm .. Aug 03 21:15:18 that command didnt do anything Aug 03 21:15:31 probably because you didn't specify a tty device. Aug 03 21:15:35 so here's the question, has anyone successfully made a voice/data call from the command line on the Palm Pre? Aug 03 21:15:47 i know wvdial automagially knows how to set up the pre's tty usbserial device, but plain ppp does not. Aug 03 21:16:09 it does? Aug 03 21:16:15 ^ sarcasm Aug 03 21:16:17 can you paste the wvdialconf logs for me? Aug 03 21:16:29 pppd on webos talks to /dev/tts/modem0 afaict Aug 03 21:16:34 all you have to do for wvdial is specify a device Aug 03 21:16:36 or /etc/wvdial/wvdial.conf Aug 03 21:16:37 ok Aug 03 21:16:47 so the ppp is inband with AT? Aug 03 21:16:51 yes Aug 03 21:16:53 oh Aug 03 21:16:57 hrmph Aug 03 21:16:59 '/dev/tts is a userspace thing Aug 03 21:17:00 almost all cell modems work that way Aug 03 21:17:06 its /dev/ttyACM0 Aug 03 21:17:10 so there's a modem server of somekind Aug 03 21:17:13 that's how you dial voice calls too Aug 03 21:17:16 okay, Aug 03 21:17:24 yay for hayes commands Aug 03 21:17:32 they've lived a long long life Aug 03 21:17:35 echo -e "ATDnumber;\r" > /dev/ttyACM0 Aug 03 21:17:39 ~seen destinal Aug 03 21:17:40 call your phone and see if it rings Aug 03 21:17:41 destinal was last seen on IRC in channel #webos-internals, 4h 20m 20s ago, saying: 'mine continued to work just fine after update'. Aug 03 21:17:51 actually, cat /dev/ttyACM0 & first Aug 03 21:18:06 you'll need to take down pppd if you want to talk to it Aug 03 21:18:17 so no data while voice ? Aug 03 21:18:24 also, if you want to play with it, try "screen /dev/ttyACM0 115200" Aug 03 21:18:34 no, but the ppp connection should be able to remain suspended Aug 03 21:18:36 i love screen for that Aug 03 21:18:37 no i mean if you want to play with making data calls Aug 03 21:18:44 what about eth0 data Aug 03 21:18:46 yeah screen is so grat Aug 03 21:18:48 while on call Aug 03 21:18:48 great Aug 03 21:18:55 is eth0 the wifi? Aug 03 21:18:59 yeh Aug 03 21:18:59 i used to go through the pain of minicom Aug 03 21:19:08 eth0 is wifi. ppp0 is WAN Aug 03 21:19:11 unless a Palm daemon is shutting it down it should work Aug 03 21:19:15 I love minicom Aug 03 21:19:15 usb0 is usbnet Aug 03 21:19:28 PmWanDaemon will probably notice it down and try to bring it up Aug 03 21:19:42 i dunno what this br0 is tee hee Aug 03 21:19:47 bridge Aug 03 21:19:49 :) Aug 03 21:19:52 shhhhh hehe Aug 03 21:19:54 rwhitby: i know nothing about how the optware packages are made so commit access wont help me much Aug 03 21:19:58 you have a bluetooth one, too, right? Aug 03 21:20:04 so killall PmWanDaemon Aug 03 21:20:05 bluetooth net is tres nice. Aug 03 21:20:08 haha you're using a layer 2 bridge for tethering? heh Aug 03 21:20:08 o i forgot about that one Aug 03 21:20:14 tmzt: if it's upstarted it'll start back up Aug 03 21:20:25 better use 'stop' and 'start' to tell upstart what's what. Aug 03 21:20:28 " Aug 03 21:20:29 okay, you guys have the device Aug 03 21:20:33 I don't Aug 03 21:20:43 you don't have /dev/ttyACM0 ? Aug 03 21:20:49 so I don't know what the event script is called Aug 03 21:20:50 i don't think he has a pre Aug 03 21:20:54 no, I don't have the Palm Pre Aug 03 21:20:55 haha Aug 03 21:21:00 well that would certainly change things Aug 03 21:23:15 tmzt: so you are talking about plugging in the pre and having a /dev/ttyAMC* show up on your laptop? Aug 03 21:23:16 tmzt: whats the holdup!!! Aug 03 21:23:36 PuffTheMagic: i believe tmzt is on the emu ? Aug 03 21:23:38 oh you want to treat the phone as an actual modem? Aug 03 21:23:50 right but that what he meant by phone as modem Aug 03 21:23:55 oooo Aug 03 21:24:00 for DuN Aug 03 21:24:00 PuffTheMagic: no, I"m talking about /dev/ttyACM0 appearing on the device Aug 03 21:24:13 tmzt: why would that be useful Aug 03 21:24:16 not all all, I want to know if the modem is using a mux protocol Aug 03 21:24:38 well that'd be a weird way to do it since then the phone couldn't use the net Aug 03 21:24:49 mux protocol, for audio input ? Aug 03 21:25:00 or for telephony communications Aug 03 21:25:02 I believe there is a "serial" interface to controlling the the cell radio Aug 03 21:25:27 and that interface probably gets touched both by ppp/chat/etc and the dialer Aug 03 21:25:38 epv: yeah thats what /dev/tty/* are, serial devices Aug 03 21:25:40 okay, that's what I'm asking Aug 03 21:25:52 (i think) Aug 03 21:25:59 right, but is only a kernel module involved or a userspace component? Aug 03 21:26:16 there is always a userspace component Aug 03 21:26:20 the kernel cant do it all Aug 03 21:26:27 and linus wont let everthing go in the kernel anyway Aug 03 21:26:34 its not the place for most things Aug 03 21:27:14 tmzt: what do you mean? pppd and all that are in userland.. the kernel provides the interface... the actual connection from the cell radio to the linux system cpu is probably spi or serial... Aug 03 21:27:52 actually pppd is userland but once connected it's done through the kernel (line discipline) Aug 03 21:28:14 what i don't understand yet is how things like the dialer can issue commands to the cell radio while pppd is speaking ppp over the "serial" interface Aug 03 21:28:48 but maybe there is more than one serial interface, or it just interrupts with the old fashioned "+++" thing as many other data radios do Aug 03 21:28:53 I don't either, that's what I'm asking Aug 03 21:29:23 is geist still here? he'd know Aug 03 21:29:37 oh, well there's a ttyACM0 and a ttyACM1 Aug 03 21:29:56 he only answers questions we already have the answers to (mostly) Aug 03 21:30:12 can you paste a lsusb -v -v ? Aug 03 21:30:23 geist is a pretty nice guy Aug 03 21:30:28 I think the one I got was wrong for some reason, maybe the radio was off Aug 03 21:30:35 bpadalino|work: that's not what I mean Aug 03 21:30:47 i know .. i was just throwing that out there Aug 03 21:31:42 no lsusb on my phone but /sys/bus/usb/drivers shows two instances of cdc_acm Aug 03 21:32:39 can you ipkg install it? Aug 03 21:32:52 ok but what xactly are you looking for? Aug 03 21:33:17 exactly what the modem exposes over usb Aug 03 21:33:37 other than /dev/ttyACM[01] ? Aug 03 21:33:40 I would like it to be able to make calls with no Palm daemons running Aug 03 21:33:45 yes Aug 03 21:35:53 i think that's all there is. hang on Aug 03 21:36:23 so I would guess that AT is over 0 and ppp is over 1 Aug 03 21:36:44 then we just need to get the alsa state when not in a call and when in a call Aug 03 21:36:47 well, they probably both speak AT, since pppd dials over 0 Aug 03 21:37:12 i dont see why anyone would want to dial from the pre userland Aug 03 21:37:15 probably ttyACM1 exists so that you can still issue AT commands even when pppd is using ttyACM0 Aug 03 21:37:36 it would be more useful if you pluged in the pre and /dev/ttyACM0 showed up on your desktop/laptop Aug 03 21:37:43 then dial from the laptop Aug 03 21:37:52 why not? maybe you want to use your own private dialup? you want to initiate voice calls while ssh'd in? i dunno Aug 03 21:38:21 epv: if you wanted to make a voice call is there something wrong with the phone interface in luna? Aug 03 21:38:25 you'd need to implement a usb "gadget" service to present an ACM endpoint if you wanted to have a serial device from the pre show up on your desktop Aug 03 21:38:46 i realize that Aug 03 21:38:47 yes, the phone interface in luna still requires the user to press "dial" i think Aug 03 21:38:49 im just saying... Aug 03 21:38:54 thats the only way i can see it being useful Aug 03 21:39:01 i'm just answering tmzt's questions Aug 03 21:39:05 i have no idea why he wants it Aug 03 21:39:09 none of my business Aug 03 21:39:13 luna-send cant make a call? Aug 03 21:39:30 it can pass the phone number to the dialer and pop it up, but still requires user interaction to hit the button to actually do it Aug 03 21:39:45 grrr i hate non-oss Aug 03 21:39:59 epv: so what call does the dial button make? Aug 03 21:40:04 yes, and this wouldn't Aug 03 21:40:13 bzhou * r10529 optware/trunk/make/keychain.mk - keychain: 2.6.8 -> 2.6.9 Aug 03 21:40:16 if you have write access to the linux devices you should be able to make a call Aug 03 21:40:24 was going to try to merge that google voice app with the built in dialer and messenger Aug 03 21:40:26 but nooooooo Aug 03 21:40:32 its not open souururrrrccceeeeee Aug 03 21:40:34 feh Aug 03 21:40:49 raeb1: That sucks Aug 03 21:41:30 raeb1: so write a new one :) Aug 03 21:41:35 thats the plan Aug 03 21:41:37 and make it OSS Aug 03 21:41:42 and wipe the floor with that non oss one Aug 03 21:41:45 oss ftw Aug 03 21:45:55 when you use luna-send to pop up the dialer with a number pre-loaded and then the users pushes the dial button, it makes a call to the preloaded number, of course. i think they just didn't want apps to be able to actually cause a call to be made without direct user interaction Aug 03 21:46:04 you can kind of see their point, but it's also unnecessarily restrictive Aug 03 21:46:19 this would be one reason to want to be ab le to talk to the cell radio and issue dial commands Aug 03 21:46:32 then you could in fact initiate calls with something other than the dialer app Aug 03 21:46:39 epv: wouldn't a more appropriate solution would be to modify the dialer to accept an autodial parameter? Aug 03 21:46:41 you might not have to do that, if you know the dbus call the dialer uses Aug 03 21:46:52 you could argue that, raeb1 Aug 03 21:46:58 but I'm asking about how you would dial with the Palm daemons not running Aug 03 21:47:00 but i see your point, in having other apps Aug 03 21:47:02 right right Aug 03 21:47:05 without their gsm/cdma stack Aug 03 21:47:06 yeah, dbus calls Aug 03 21:47:21 it presumably uses TelephonyInterfaceLayer Aug 03 21:47:42 so yeah, reverse-engineeringt hat would help too, but your app would still have to be under the com.palm.* hierarchy to be able to do it Aug 03 21:47:58 ie it doesn't save you from having to do something as root first Aug 03 21:48:27 you can listen to all the dbus traffic though, and see if there's anything interesting Aug 03 21:48:41 or you can change the dbus configuration to allow your app Aug 03 21:48:44 maybe Aug 03 21:48:53 yeah i was wondering about that Aug 03 21:48:59 in any case, linux mods req'd Aug 03 21:49:05 unless you live in com.palm.... Aug 03 21:49:33 i don't think it's just dbus... TIL probably only listens for requests coming from com.palm.dialer or whatever its called Aug 03 21:51:18 dbus-monitor --system shows a lot of stuff Aug 03 21:51:39 you can catch a lot of stuff like SMS messages and things by listening to it Aug 03 21:53:27 dbus-monitor ? Aug 03 21:53:47 yeah, it just gives a text dump of selected (or all) dbus traffic Aug 03 21:53:57 groovy Aug 03 21:53:58 i think it's buildin to the webos userland Aug 03 21:54:04 builtin Aug 03 21:54:33 i made a dbus-monitor in .net Aug 03 21:55:01 not as cool though Aug 03 21:55:32 http://gitoroius.com/webos-internals/applications/trees/master/org.webosinternals.mono.dbusmonitor/ or something Aug 03 21:55:44 oh yeah i think i saw that in the tree Aug 03 21:55:46 cool Aug 03 21:55:56 s/oiu/iu/ Aug 03 21:55:58 raeb1 meant: http://gitorius.com/webos-internals/applications/trees/master/org.webosinternals.mono.dbusmonitor/ or something Aug 03 21:56:04 heh the constant battery status updates are funny Aug 03 21:56:12 jezus i duno Aug 03 21:56:12 hehe Aug 03 21:56:38 i wonder if the dbus is quiet when powerd makes it go to sleeeep Aug 03 21:56:51 and what is the mechanism that wakes it up Aug 03 21:57:46 yeah i think it takes a radio event or a keypress to actually wake up Aug 03 21:57:58 can we emulate a radio event Aug 03 21:58:00 i.e. Aug 03 21:58:01 the radio probably does it with an interrupt line Aug 03 21:58:05 so doubtful Aug 03 21:58:05 what about Aug 03 21:58:06 push Aug 03 21:58:13 things that wake it up over the data connection Aug 03 21:58:32 sure, those would make the radio tell the cpu to wakeup Aug 03 21:58:43 would a simple icmp packet wake it up Aug 03 21:58:46 (ping the device) Aug 03 21:58:50 let's see Aug 03 21:59:05 looks like no Aug 03 21:59:15 and how would you test, enable wifi, disco usb, try to ssh (hopefully fail due to sleep), ping, try to ssh again Aug 03 21:59:18 but trying to open a TCP connection does Aug 03 21:59:25 reaaaalllly Aug 03 21:59:27 nice Aug 03 21:59:32 wait Aug 03 21:59:33 what Aug 03 21:59:34 so Aug 03 21:59:37 ssh to device should wake it up ? Aug 03 21:59:40 well, nice except that someone can kill your battery by sshing to your phone over and over Aug 03 21:59:45 yes, it does Aug 03 21:59:50 at least with mine Aug 03 21:59:56 hmmm will have to test that more Aug 03 22:00:09 back in a bit Aug 03 22:00:17 oh yeah good idea, time to go home Aug 03 22:04:58 vl 20 untagged 3-6 Aug 03 22:05:00 oops Aug 03 22:05:09 hah Aug 03 22:08:23 heh Aug 03 22:08:33 irc is not a router Aug 03 22:08:52 * Templarian thinks mmm scooby doo mac and cheese. Aug 03 22:47:27 http://wsf4.letstalk.com/cell-phones/productdetail.htm?prId=35030 Aug 03 22:47:31 Pre for $99 Aug 03 22:47:35 today only Aug 03 22:50:38 that's with $100 mail-in Aug 03 22:51:27 <_aa_> that one more $100 mail-in than I got Aug 03 22:52:08 yep 1 instant rebate and 1 mail in Aug 03 22:52:30 in case you missed out on the bestbuy fumble Aug 03 23:32:27 anyone try to increase the accelerometer frequency from 4HZ? Aug 03 23:33:59 egaudet: is that the sample rate or something? Aug 03 23:36:27 i received an error when trying to set up quilt: http://webos.pastebin.com/d2a52f90c Aug 03 23:36:52 failed to create local clone Aug 03 23:41:25 Are the rest of you making lomounted /opt? I'm finding the 256MB /var partition incredibly constraining. Aug 03 23:50:53 damn ndiswrapper. so, anyone look into increasing the accelerometer event frequency? Aug 03 23:55:52 do you know how the accel is attached? Aug 03 23:56:45 no, I was wondering what the status of it was here before digging Aug 03 23:57:06 naa. i havent tried changing it Aug 03 23:57:18 but i cant imagine needing higher than 4k hz Aug 03 23:57:32 wait Aug 03 23:57:33 it's 4HZ Aug 03 23:57:34 4hz Aug 03 23:57:37 lol Aug 03 23:57:39 lol Aug 03 23:57:47 that is crazy loqw Aug 03 23:57:48 low Aug 03 23:57:52 no wonder it sorta sucks Aug 03 23:58:05 yea, it stunts all the accelerometer based games/apps Aug 04 00:00:14 there must be a Pre teardown website that could give a part number somehwere Aug 04 00:01:13 oh it's i2c Aug 04 00:01:15 isnt it limited by the api? Aug 04 00:01:46 the driver would tell you what chip is is Aug 04 00:01:55 i wonder which system service manages it Aug 04 00:02:05 I'm trying to install the terminal app but getting this error "-sh: cannot create /var/etc/ipkg/preware.conf: Permission denied" Aug 04 00:02:13 there is a sysfs element poll_interval Aug 04 00:02:18 kyu= you should be root Aug 04 00:02:20 set to 250 (ms) Aug 04 00:03:16 oh, on input5 Aug 04 00:03:40 http://www.kionix.com/accelerometers/accelerometer-KXSD9.html Aug 04 00:06:07 the datasheet lists a -3dB bandwidth of 50hz, so it's not a fast chip regardless Aug 04 00:06:29 epv: got it thanks. Aug 04 00:06:30 super low power though, wow Aug 04 00:06:38 max 320uA at 2.6v Aug 04 00:07:40 wow it's a really cool chip actually Aug 04 00:07:51 builtin low-power wakeup mode Aug 04 00:08:40 i bet nobody wanted to try implementing that because of the hassle of i2c bus lockups Aug 04 00:13:20 egaudet: so write a higher poll interval Aug 04 00:13:31 if it works, i will add that to my devtools app Aug 04 00:13:38 so that it can be configured via mojo Aug 04 00:13:39 ;) Aug 04 00:14:56 egaudet: i already have a led service, it should not be hard to expand it to manipulte the accelerometer freq Aug 04 00:14:56 lower poll_interval Aug 04 00:14:58 it works Aug 04 00:15:03 lower? Aug 04 00:15:11 i thought you would want a higher poll_interval Aug 04 00:15:19 4hz seems pretty damn low already Aug 04 00:15:22 yes because it is seemingly the latency... i.e. every 250ms Aug 04 00:15:31 so i put 20, and the carpenter app flies Aug 04 00:15:52 20ms is a higher polling freq ;) Aug 04 00:15:59 i think you mispoke there Aug 04 00:16:11 lower ms, higher freq Aug 04 00:16:14 yea i did Aug 04 00:16:18 lol Aug 04 00:16:40 so i put it at 50hz (since epv noticed that on the specs) Aug 04 00:17:00 the carpenter's level app definitely goes much smoother Aug 04 00:17:00 actually i think it goes way faster than that Aug 04 00:17:11 well, it's cool that that's all you had to do Aug 04 00:17:12 neat Aug 04 00:17:24 wonder how that impacts the power usage Aug 04 00:17:25 so i will write a service for it then :D Aug 04 00:17:38 so that apps can set the poll interval from mojo ;D Aug 04 00:18:03 wouldn't make any difference to the accelerometer itself, but maybe the additional work of polling it more frequenrlt might make the cpu busier and draw more power Aug 04 00:18:03 epv: we should build powertop for the pre Aug 04 00:18:10 that would kick ass Aug 04 00:18:12 so we can see what is waking up the device and wasting power Aug 04 00:18:22 :D and eventually we can get a really cool labyrinth type game! Aug 04 00:18:42 i haven't looked, does the installed kernel export the time-in-state tables? Aug 04 00:18:42 egaudet: it only needs to be set higher while the app is in use too Aug 04 00:18:49 and i cant really see it wasting much power Aug 04 00:19:16 epv: probably, but i havent looked at much kernel shit yet Aug 04 00:19:46 they give the kernel source so we could aways rebuild the kernel with it enabled Aug 04 00:20:31 oh yeah it does... /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/stats/* Aug 04 00:20:34 :D Aug 04 00:20:40 what is LunaSysMgr and does it usually go over 90% cpu? Aug 04 00:20:56 egaudet: that is the Pre interface Aug 04 00:21:05 for all intents and purposes Aug 04 00:21:05 LunaSysMgr is the whole UI Aug 04 00:21:14 thing of it as the gnome/kde of the pre ;) Aug 04 00:21:26 s/thing/think/ Aug 04 00:21:27 PuffTheMagic meant: think of it as the gnome/kde of the pre ;) Aug 04 00:21:51 ok so it's cool to grab all the cpu running my app Aug 04 00:21:55 lol Aug 04 00:22:03 ? Aug 04 00:22:19 nothing should need that much cpu power Aug 04 00:22:38 I see it hitting 94% in top while running the carpenter app Aug 04 00:22:49 what is this carpenter app Aug 04 00:22:59 if nothing else is waking up continuously i could see it happening Aug 04 00:23:09 carpenter level using the accelerometer Aug 04 00:23:11 a bubble level emulator? Aug 04 00:23:25 heh probably not the most efficient code on earth Aug 04 00:23:30 sounds like some inefficient coding in that app then Aug 04 00:23:36 :D Aug 04 00:23:42 a little to late on that comnent Aug 04 00:23:55 especially if it's polling by sending dbus requests and parsing json packets to get the answer as fas as it can :) Aug 04 00:24:08 did you look in the app to see if it's waiting at all in between samples? Aug 04 00:24:26 polling is horrible Aug 04 00:24:28 well the cpu doesn't get hogged with the default 4hz polling Aug 04 00:24:57 heh i bet the app just asks for a reading and waits until it gets it, updates the display, and asks again Aug 04 00:25:00 egaudet: but the chip for the accelerometer shouldnt use cpu power Aug 04 00:25:04 when i increased it to 50hz, and rock it back and forth LunaSysMgr jumps up to 94% Aug 04 00:25:20 and the service just returns an answer as quickly as it is told to by the sysfs setting Aug 04 00:25:22 egaudet: cause it gets a resonse back sooner Aug 04 00:25:35 someone should add a sleep or wait() in the app Aug 04 00:25:44 no need for it to request that often Aug 04 00:25:52 i wouldn't worry a whole lot about it, egaudet. cpu percentage readings from top depend on a lot of things, and you're not going to be running this app constantly for long periods of time Aug 04 00:26:25 epv: it still good to figure out since we all semi suck at Pre coding Aug 04 00:26:29 need to know what our limits are Aug 04 00:26:37 yea, i'm glad it is so easy to increase the frequency on it though Aug 04 00:26:40 or what the min is to accomp;lish the task Aug 04 00:27:00 egaudet: stay tuned in the next few days and I will jhave a service for changing the polling frew Aug 04 00:27:02 i wonder if the service keeps polling even when nobody's asking.. one would hope not Aug 04 00:27:04 freq Aug 04 00:27:10 and a gui interface to set it Aug 04 00:27:43 I would think (hope) that isn't the case epv Aug 04 00:27:55 PuffTheMagic, that would be awesome Aug 04 00:29:06 Is all of Palm's code open/released? Aug 04 00:29:15 what code? Aug 04 00:29:19 kernel? I think so Aug 04 00:30:47 i think they've provided their patchset to the kernel versions they build from Aug 04 00:31:11 but there are non-open bits like the "g_composite" driver Aug 04 00:31:20 and probably other stuff, but i dunno what Aug 04 00:31:52 Where can I find their code? Aug 04 00:33:43 that's not open? Aug 04 00:33:55 I know google has a version of it Aug 04 00:34:05 which, g_composite? Aug 04 00:34:09 yes Aug 04 00:34:16 oh cool, i didn't know that Aug 04 00:34:17 composite gadget Aug 04 00:34:21 yeha Aug 04 00:45:02 hi guys. Today I had 3 cards open and I tried opening my email and it said that I had too many cards open Aug 04 00:45:21 anyone have any general information that would help me determine IF something is wrong? Aug 04 00:46:31 free -m ? Aug 04 00:46:47 actually that won't work on busybox Aug 04 00:46:51 just free Aug 04 00:47:13 mine isnt rooted Aug 04 00:47:58 you don't need to be root to do that Aug 04 00:48:10 can you help me then? I so lost :( Aug 04 00:48:23 just enabled dev mode and use novacom Aug 04 00:48:32 what is novacom Aug 04 00:48:34 you don't need the talk program though Aug 04 00:48:40 noveterm Aug 04 00:48:43 novaterm Aug 04 00:48:44 is there a guide somewhere? Aug 04 00:49:25 same as the root stuff Aug 04 00:49:37 you just don't finish setting up root Aug 04 00:50:04 the wiki is really coming together Aug 04 00:50:47 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Accessing_Linux_Using_Novaterm Aug 04 00:52:49 oh shoot. when i slid open my keyboard and pulled out the "tab" something broke I think Aug 04 00:53:14 what a silly design Aug 04 00:53:37 d03boy: What a silly boy. Aug 04 00:53:52 But agree with you it's a silly disign. Aug 04 00:53:52 its just the tiny piece of plastic that attaches across Aug 04 00:54:01 my fingernail pretty easily broke it I guess Aug 04 00:54:16 design* Aug 04 00:59:27 227204/245036 used Aug 04 01:01:12 taht would be it Aug 04 01:02:39 gosh, how is it using so much ram? thats crazy Aug 04 01:03:29 top M Aug 04 01:03:31 top Aug 04 01:03:34 then press M Aug 04 01:03:51 ah, didnt know you could sort like that Aug 04 01:04:14 LunaSysMgr is using 34.7% and java is using 13.3% Aug 04 01:05:45 for some reaosn after the last update everything runs reall slow Aug 04 01:05:53 look at the RES column, which doesn't include memory shared with other processes Aug 04 01:05:57 1.1.0? Aug 04 01:07:41 tmzt, im not sure the exact # but it was the newest one (a week ago?) Aug 04 01:08:08 RES column gives me 82mb for LunaSysMgr and 31m for java, 13m for BrowserServer Aug 04 01:16:03 uh oh, novaterm crashed. I hope thast not bad Aug 04 01:17:06 i don't think i've ever seen novaterm crash Aug 04 01:17:09 i wonder how you did that Aug 04 01:17:29 i typed 'exit' Aug 04 01:17:59 that crashed it ? Aug 04 01:18:17 d03boy fwiw your numbers are very close to mine Aug 04 01:18:48 you can do a jps to see which java threads are using memory and taking up cpu time i am pretty sure Aug 04 01:18:49 epv: do you get too many cards? Aug 04 01:18:54 if you wanted to see where that 31M was going Aug 04 01:19:46 Hey folks...quick question...sorry if its lame... Aug 04 01:20:14 messed up and created a username I don't want anymore...deleted the directory from var/home/ and deleted the line for its password... Aug 04 01:20:32 tmzt: i have once or twice, i think mostly from opening web pages that do stupid stuff Aug 04 01:20:32 but if I try to recreate that same username....it says that the group username is in use Aug 04 01:20:52 Any ideas where this group username is stored? Aug 04 01:20:54 ah Aug 04 01:20:56 newb: remove it from /etc/group Aug 04 01:21:14 isnt there a deluser command or something Aug 04 01:21:38 not in pre userland Aug 04 01:22:09 there is adduser though. heh Aug 04 01:22:09 thanks epv! Aug 04 01:22:12 sure Aug 04 01:27:38 epv: hey, how's it going? Aug 04 01:27:45 not bad, destinal... Aug 04 01:28:09 * destinal has come back from defcon so will be around again. Aug 04 01:28:15 oh yay defcon Aug 04 01:28:20 epv: you might try symlinking it to deluser Aug 04 01:28:21 i heard someone put up a fake ATM :) Aug 04 01:28:28 they might be the same binary Aug 04 01:28:48 maybe, i dunno. i have no reason to add/remove users on my phone much, and you can just edit passwd/group Aug 04 01:28:48 epv: skimmers, I heard. not sure if it was defcon related people or just skimmers were there and found by defcon related people Aug 04 01:28:57 haha. pretty funny :) Aug 04 01:29:46 heh, actually looks like you're right, there was a full fake atm there Aug 04 01:29:54 put there some time before dc Aug 04 01:30:16 hahaha a whole fake atm. Aug 04 01:30:17 yay. Aug 04 01:31:29 looks like the fact that defcon was coming was their downfall Aug 04 01:31:47 security folks look a bit closer than others Aug 04 01:31:55 I think it was intentional for defcon Aug 04 01:32:40 there was one usenix where someone put up a big whiteboard covered with passwords (no usernames/hosts/etc) and wrote "If you password is on this list, you may want to change it Aug 04 01:33:04 from zf05? Aug 04 01:33:06 D: Aug 04 01:33:17 ernm Aug 04 01:33:21 So I've been gone for a few days, anything neat with terminal? Aug 04 01:33:24 epv: wall of sheep is like that at defcon, they sniff and MITM everyone they can and post up pictures, passwords, email addresses, whatever Aug 04 01:33:25 (lately) Aug 04 01:34:09 hey destinal Aug 04 01:34:12 fun Aug 04 01:34:22 rwhitby: heya Aug 04 01:34:39 do we have a writeup of the ipkg service anywhere so that we can review it from a security perspective? Aug 04 01:34:54 (since it will run postinst scripts, right?) Aug 04 01:35:19 rwhitby: palm's, or the one we're going to have? Aug 04 01:35:29 destinal: the one we're going to have Aug 04 01:35:40 (which can do things as root) Aug 04 01:38:47 rwhitby: sure, it'll do what palm's does, ipkg -o /var etc.. all I have right now is the proposed functionality which is list installed, list from all feeds, list from all feeds with available updates, install package name from feeds, remove package name from feeds. current proposal has update on any of the list from feeds operations Aug 04 01:39:19 the only real issue is to either do SSL or package signing and I know we were leaning towards the latter Aug 04 01:39:31 destinal: Palm's palm-install.bat currently runs ipkg -o /var which means that postinst scripts don't get run (since the -o switch means offline mode which prevents scripts being run) Aug 04 01:39:49 what user does palm's ipkg run as? Aug 04 01:39:55 rwhitby: ah, I didn't realize that. Aug 04 01:40:09 I was under the impression our service would do ipkg -o /var, but then also run prerm and postinst scripts in a secure way as well, to allow us to do (for instance) the termplugin symlink. Aug 04 01:40:12 rwhitby: I mean I knew -o /var but not the implication on postinst stuff, I thought they were run Aug 04 01:40:18 epv: everything runs as root on the Pre. Aug 04 01:41:43 I didn't do much actual work on it in vegas :P Aug 04 01:41:56 shocking, I know Aug 04 01:42:02 destinal: nope, you can see by using ipkg -o /var install directly on the preware.org repo (which has postinst scripts in the ipkgs) that they are intentionally not run when the -o switch is used - this is unmodified ipkg behaviour. Aug 04 01:43:05 destinal: I've been working with the WebOS Quick Install author to get his application to run the runProgram novacom call to look for and explicitly run prerm and postinst scripts when installing ipkgs from the host connection. Aug 04 01:43:36 (the scripts get stored under /var/usr/lib/ipkg/info/.{postinst,prerm} and are just shell scripts) Aug 04 01:44:18 So eventually WebOS Quick Install will be able to be used to install any webos-internals ipkg, no matter how complex the root commands it needs to run are. Aug 04 01:44:19 rwhitby: well since his installer program allows installation of unsigned apps, that would seem to then make running those scripts add new security risks Aug 04 01:44:29 ie ones I thought existed but apparently don't Aug 04 01:45:15 I expect his installer app to ask the user for permission to run the script as root. Aug 04 01:45:25 (but will double check that with him) Aug 04 01:46:00 ok, just so we know in what places we're giving users the opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot where palm's tools don't let you load the gun, as it were. Aug 04 01:46:21 i.e. "This application you are installing wants to run the following script as root: ln -s /var/usr/lib/BrowserPlugins/termplugin.so /usr/lib/BrowserPlugins/termplugin.so - do you consent to that?" Aug 04 01:46:33 that sounds like a good way to handle it Aug 04 01:46:52 then in the doco for termplugin, you advise the user what to expect in that message. Aug 04 01:47:08 yello! Aug 04 01:47:13 destinal: we can do the same in the ipkg service. Aug 04 01:47:22 that's tricky. Aug 04 01:47:23 hmm Aug 04 01:47:29 I would rather package tools had a standard way to install certain things Aug 04 01:47:35 like plugins, translations, whatever Aug 04 01:47:41 tmzt: ipkg does Aug 04 01:47:49 it's a postinst script :-) Aug 04 01:47:51 what are the scripts for then? Aug 04 01:47:53 ah Aug 04 01:48:12 just like debian and rpm have postinst scripts Aug 04 01:48:23 and MSI and apple packages Aug 04 01:49:04 you ever stumble across any random videos on youtube, and then keep watching a specific user's videos even though they seem to annoy the crap out of you Aug 04 01:49:11 just hoping to come across one you like? Aug 04 01:49:23 destinal: anyway, that's where I'm at. Installing simple webOS-only apps is easy, and there will be 10 different solutions soon. Aug 04 01:49:41 Installing serious webos-internals stuff is hard to make convenient, and that is where we need to focus. Aug 04 01:49:46 I JUST GOT INVITED TO GOOGLE VOICE!!! Aug 04 01:49:49 rwhitby: yeah, I agree Aug 04 01:49:59 YAY been waiting for ages Aug 04 01:50:02 congrats joe Aug 04 01:50:05 really? Aug 04 01:50:09 :D Aug 04 01:50:11 rwhitby: unfortunately asking for user input and not letting programs override it is tricky. Aug 04 01:50:14 I got an invite like a week after I signed up Aug 04 01:50:22 yeah like 5 days, maybe more Aug 04 01:50:27 * rwhitby has a google voice number, but can only access the web management area when physically in the US, which is rare. Aug 04 01:50:48 destinal: yep, it's not an easy problem. Aug 04 01:51:06 hi Aug 04 01:51:33 Rick__: you might want to read the logs for the last 15 minutes. Aug 04 01:51:37 after a day ruled by Phil, the lord of "Not enough light" -- I'm ready for something DIFFERENT. Aug 04 01:51:45 ok can do Aug 04 01:51:53 rwhitby: you can also connect your gvoice number to gizmo project SIP Aug 04 01:52:21 rwhitby: btw, we need to edit the topic to get rid of predevwiki..... Aug 04 01:52:27 destinal: yeah, but I need to be able to log in to do that :-) I just haven't bothered messing with a proxy solution to do that yet. Too lazy. Aug 04 01:56:11 rwhitby: palm's security / sandbox concept doesn't mesh well with third party binaries or postinst, every way I can think of to enable opens a way to attack it, without third party binaries and postinst, everything is neat and clean Aug 04 01:56:27 :( Aug 04 01:57:16 which destinal is why palm pre-installs the plugins for classic in the distribution of the os. Aug 04 01:57:29 who runs this chan? Aug 04 01:57:38 but I don't think we have a CHOICE. we HAVE to have a technique Aug 04 01:57:40 bougyman: infobot Aug 04 01:57:44 destinal: heh. Aug 04 01:57:46 i mean humans. Aug 04 01:57:48 who's in charge here?! Aug 04 01:57:56 bougyman: infobot -- and all those people on the left with symbols by their names. Aug 04 01:57:57 destinal: i really mean: is it ok if I keep Pastr in here. Aug 04 01:58:00 he helps me a ton. Aug 04 01:58:22 destinal: i agree, i think it's a really hard problem to solve, especially with so many people willing to type/run anything they're told in order to get a new feature Aug 04 01:58:22 bougyman: who's Pastr? Aug 04 01:58:32 or whaat.... ? Aug 04 01:58:41 destinal: a bot I wrote Aug 04 01:58:50 it would call for a web of trust and people willing to do a lot of work reviewing code Aug 04 01:58:50 Rick__: I can anthropomorphise, can't I? :) Aug 04 01:58:51 pastr.it Aug 04 01:59:04 I don't know destinal can you? Aug 04 01:59:12 as far as I am concered, you may. Aug 04 01:59:50 epv - anything going out on OUR feed will have pretty serious human review of anything with binaries and scripts Aug 04 02:00:06 but the problem is, ... that doesn't say much about OTHER feeds. Aug 04 02:00:15 well, there's always signing... heh Aug 04 02:00:45 destinal: -- I think we have a "there's a risk here, and you should know that everything comes with a risk, and there's a long detailed explanation if you want to read it at this web link...." and just go one. Aug 04 02:00:48 go on. Aug 04 02:01:35 Rick__: sure, but then the trick is to lock programs out of being "helpful" and accepting the risk for you Aug 04 02:01:37 :) Aug 04 02:02:23 shared token between mojo app and service is probably best way Aug 04 02:02:33 generated on install, like we discussed on a similar thing Aug 04 02:03:17 nodnod Aug 04 02:03:38 and even then, it's not really SECURE SECURE.... Aug 04 02:03:54 not secure against other binaries and services, but nothing is and we don't care Aug 04 02:04:21 secure against mojo apps is what I was getting at, ie not letting something outside the wall knock it down without user consent Aug 04 02:04:31 because someone could always fake the feed... or send an imail that you ought to subscribe to this COOL MULTILEVEL MARKETING APP FEED that will bring you a bazillion dollars from a dead Kenyan. Aug 04 02:05:05 the only way to be pretty DARN safe is to do what apple did.... Aug 04 02:05:22 and that's not happening Aug 04 02:05:41 Rick__: well the feed that ships with the app will be preware and you're not faking that Aug 04 02:06:24 nodnod Aug 04 02:06:27 but getting someone to add a feed, yeah, that's always a risk and if someone adds their own feed, then says "ok" to: this script wants to run: rm -rf / or whatever, Aug 04 02:06:36 right Aug 04 02:06:37 then they deserve what they get Aug 04 02:07:08 just want to make sure a mojo app can't make the choice for them since mojo apps are considered "easy" / "safe" Aug 04 02:07:08 so, Palm's ultimate solution to that is "we back up your data to the cloud and make sure that the Doctor is always in." :-) Aug 04 02:07:20 which isn't so horrible. Aug 04 02:07:21 Palm's ultimate solution is to make this "hard" Aug 04 02:07:25 but I rsync just in case. Aug 04 02:07:39 nodnod Aug 04 02:07:45 and really they did, you need to actually turn on dev mode Aug 04 02:08:11 So, when might you have sample code to hand us a json, and sample calls for us to write into the mojo part. Aug 04 02:08:22 Not that it has to be pretty or finished, or have the security parts yet. Aug 04 02:08:28 that's why I'm stepping really carefully to avoid knocking down layers they've put in place to help security Aug 04 02:08:33 just somehting that will gimme a json from a feed..... Aug 04 02:08:37 when I poke it. Aug 04 02:09:01 are you talking about preware cloud apps? Aug 04 02:09:05 * bougyman listens closely Aug 04 02:09:11 i was contemplating that this weekend. Aug 04 02:09:13 hard coded for now from the existing preware feed. Aug 04 02:09:54 bougyman: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Preware Aug 04 02:10:04 go read the -- constantly evolving -- spec Aug 04 02:10:49 Rick__: soon.. a day or two I hope -- sorry for the unfortunate timing collision between needing the service and me going to defcon Aug 04 02:11:34 that's pretty sweet, rick. Aug 04 02:11:46 i guess i'm going to have to get a gitorous account one of these days and jump in Aug 04 02:11:53 my huge project rolled out yesterday. Aug 04 02:11:57 so I have some cycles. Aug 04 02:12:01 destinal: -- it's ok, we were busy over the wekend. Aug 04 02:12:03 why gitorious and not github? Aug 04 02:12:13 i'd never heard of gitorious before this project. Aug 04 02:12:25 bougyman: we're going to have our OWN git repository "soon." Aug 04 02:12:34 but I think the answer is , rwhitby was used to it. Aug 04 02:12:45 and SOMEONE had to start things off. Aug 04 02:13:04 i just always hate registering for things. Aug 04 02:13:21 life is so hard. allow me to weep. ,,,,,, there. :-) Aug 04 02:13:30 we also wanted something that the code was published and open so we could run it ourselves Aug 04 02:13:35 if we wanted to Aug 04 02:13:42 nodnod Aug 04 02:13:44 that too. Aug 04 02:13:50 which we do want to, and plan to. Aug 04 02:14:00 ah. Aug 04 02:14:04 in rwhitby and ka6sox's AMPLE spare time. Aug 04 02:14:25 we used trac for that for a long time. Aug 04 02:14:28 moved to redmine recently. Aug 04 02:14:49 if y'all want a redmine or trac or gitorious up we just got a new co-lo that has slices avail for oss hosting. Aug 04 02:14:49 we still use plain old svn Aug 04 02:15:02 svn at gitorious? Aug 04 02:15:04 * bougyman confused. Aug 04 02:15:05 no Aug 04 02:15:09 We as in my company Aug 04 02:15:13 oh Aug 04 02:15:16 not we as in webos-internals Aug 04 02:15:25 our co is on git, it was CVS when I arrived. Aug 04 02:15:50 i almost went mercurial, but it was a bit too sluggish at the time. Aug 04 02:15:58 the speed has improved, and hg still has better windows support. Aug 04 02:16:25 my lead dev was more of a windows gal, though now she's probably 90% linux. Aug 04 02:16:26 bougyman: webos-internals has good hosting in place. It's in the same rack as the kernal Aug 04 02:16:44 so you just need the cycles to do the admin keystrokes? Aug 04 02:16:48 * destinal is still not really properly adjusted from the central repository (like svn and cvs) to fully distributed trees Aug 04 02:17:07 my brain hasn't quite shifted gears Aug 04 02:17:13 destinal: git and hg usually have a central hub, even in distributed environments. Aug 04 02:17:18 otherwise it's darcs :) Aug 04 02:17:31 darcs was way ahead of its time. Aug 04 02:17:36 bougyman: it's clear that that's not want linus intended Aug 04 02:17:38 alas it got no traction. Aug 04 02:18:00 s/an/ha/ Aug 04 02:18:00 destinal meant: bougymha: it's clear that that's not want linus intended Aug 04 02:18:14 bougymha Aug 04 02:18:16 * destinal fails Aug 04 02:18:57 should have been s/ant/hat/ :) Aug 04 02:24:28 linus is pretty explicit about the idea that there is no one true linux git, it's good that lots of people maintain one of their own and any pieces parts can be merged in various directions, if only I could stop thinking svn and start thinking git I think it would improve my ability to take that idea in interesting directions. Aug 04 02:24:54 i used darcs for quite a while before git. Aug 04 02:25:13 I -tried- to use darcs, ghod knows the programmers I was working with wanted me to use it. But i could NOT wrap my mind around it. Aug 04 02:25:14 in never liked the constraints of svn/cvs/rcs Aug 04 02:25:32 yah i've yet to be able to fully absorb the "100% distriburted" model Aug 04 02:25:36 but then, they thought in haskell. which says something..... Aug 04 02:25:47 lambda calculus ftw Aug 04 02:25:54 haha Aug 04 02:25:55 i'm _so_ glad I took that at pepperdine. Aug 04 02:26:06 i wouldn't have made any headway in haskell without it. Aug 04 02:26:14 i thought it completely useless at the time, too :) Aug 04 02:26:34 you understand that the IDEA of lambda in a programming language wasn't PUBLISHED much less embedded in code until after I was 40. Aug 04 02:27:19 never-the-less, the fact that you can DO that in javascript is very powerful. Why they felt the need to cloak scheme in C syntax is beyond me.... Aug 04 02:27:42 somewhat Aug 04 02:27:48 JS isn't solely FP Aug 04 02:27:52 no Aug 04 02:27:56 of course it isn't Aug 04 02:27:57 webos apps are mostly Prototype, aren't they? Aug 04 02:28:01 it's some weird amalgam Aug 04 02:28:10 webOS embedds Prototype Aug 04 02:28:10 FP? Aug 04 02:28:14 feels like lua with way too much punctuation Aug 04 02:28:16 Functional Programming Aug 04 02:28:18 ah Aug 04 02:28:18 destinal: functional programming Aug 04 02:28:26 closures, no side effects, etc. Aug 04 02:28:32 right Aug 04 02:28:32 lots of recursion. Aug 04 02:28:45 closures. Another good thing that you can do in js. Aug 04 02:28:49 I have noticed javascript is way more truly object oriented than java ever was Aug 04 02:28:58 and yet not at all :) Aug 04 02:28:59 all in one. Aug 04 02:29:02 heh Aug 04 02:29:06 nodnodnod. in jsl, objects inherit from OBJECTS. Aug 04 02:29:08 directly Aug 04 02:29:19 in soviet russia... nevermind Aug 04 02:29:26 which is "intelligent." Aug 04 02:29:29 i just wish algol didn't dominate Aug 04 02:29:37 i much prefer s-exp syntax Aug 04 02:29:44 * bougyman tries to make his pre a lisp-machine Aug 04 02:29:51 one of the things I --hate-- about Java is the classical-ness of it. Aug 04 02:30:16 clojure is one of the hot new languages with s-exp. Aug 04 02:30:22 Lots of Infernal Stupid Parenthesis.... sure, that makes almost as much sense as using WHITE SPACE to indicate scope instead of braces. Aug 04 02:30:24 but scala is filling in that space that clojure should own. Aug 04 02:30:31 No one would EVER do that in a programming language.... :-) Aug 04 02:30:55 hmmmmm Aug 04 02:31:01 ::roots around::: Aug 04 02:31:03 heh Aug 04 02:31:03 ugh white space significant languages are evil Aug 04 02:31:10 *cough*python*cough Aug 04 02:31:12 obviously you're talking about fortran! :) Aug 04 02:31:12 we can all agree on that, at least. Aug 04 02:31:21 python is lisp-lite. Aug 04 02:31:29 I don't type well enough to program in python Aug 04 02:31:41 a good idea, minus the parenthesis and add whitespace paranoia Aug 04 02:32:14 yep, I thought so. I have a LOGO INTERPRETOR written entirely in javascript...... Aug 04 02:32:50 which is _really_ lisp-lite Aug 04 02:33:07 so as off topic as we've come.. let me bring it around. anyway to access the Luna display outside of replacing it (directfb) or using the SDK ? Aug 04 02:33:12 it's freaking WONDERFUL for teaching children the power of recursion. Aug 04 02:33:24 i used DrScheme for my son. Aug 04 02:33:27 how do you think Terminal works bougyman Aug 04 02:33:31 it's really sweet for kiddos. Aug 04 02:33:57 Rick__: right.. but I meant more like running TinyX on top of it. Aug 04 02:34:12 TinyX on my yopy was much more responsive than this luna is. Aug 04 02:34:22 and the yopy was like 133Mhz Aug 04 02:34:33 you will have to do a terminal-like plugin and run tinyx in the background and use the plugin's display, just like terminal does. Aug 04 02:34:36 rootless X on directfb would be funny... a little xterm sitting on top of the Luna ui Aug 04 02:34:39 once you do that, you're golden. Aug 04 02:35:07 has anyone got the touchscreen device mapped out? Aug 04 02:35:13 i noticed no std hid on this thing. Aug 04 02:35:25 the thing is, they really need the graphics libraries, which palm is still withholding.... Aug 04 02:35:45 and no, as far as I no, no one has yet traced out the touchscreen. Aug 04 02:36:02 if you look at classic, it's handling all the touches in mojo and passing decoded touch to the back end. Aug 04 02:36:13 yeah I had classic installed Aug 04 02:36:21 bougyman: it appears the touchscree and other input devices are locked by hidd Aug 04 02:36:23 it crashed when I ran pockettunes :( Aug 04 02:38:23 tmzt: yes, hidd likes to claim all input devices, I've noticed as well Aug 04 02:43:05 whats the command to novacom to the emulator? Aug 04 02:43:28 its like novacom -t tty:// or something Aug 04 02:44:40 yes, that's the same as novaterm Aug 04 02:44:54 novaterm is just a pre canned script that runs 'novacom -t open tty://' Aug 04 02:46:38 bougyman: the reason for gitorious vs github is that the source code for github is not available, so you cannot replicate it on your own server. gitorious is open source. Aug 04 02:46:57 rwhitby: makes sense. Aug 04 02:47:02 i'd just not heard of gitorious Aug 04 02:47:38 yeah, we're looking to move to our own gitosis and gitweb implementation anyway on git.webos-internals.org Aug 04 02:47:53 (since it's git, it doesn't matter where we started the hosting) Aug 04 02:47:56 * bougyman whispers redmine Aug 04 02:48:07 does redmine do git now? Aug 04 02:48:15 always has Aug 04 02:48:33 ok, I should take a look at that then. Aug 04 02:49:17 we run code.rubyists.com on it, though we don't maintain the wiki as much as we should. Aug 04 02:49:26 redmine.lighttpd.net has good wiki + source. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 04 02:59:57 2009