**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 15 02:59:57 2009
Sep 15 03:00:09 <bclancy> How do I get around it?
Sep 15 03:00:11 <rwhitby> sportman: using the instructions is always a good first step ;-)
Sep 15 03:00:16 <rwhitby> bclancy: try again
Sep 15 03:00:20 <sportman> well stupid me saw it in the preware
Sep 15 03:00:20 <bclancy> ok
Sep 15 03:00:22 <sportman> and installed :-p
Sep 15 03:00:41 <rwhitby> oil: so it sees 0.1.3, then later thinks that 0.1.8 is installed.
Sep 15 03:00:57 <rwhitby> oil: replace type 5 then replace type 3
Sep 15 03:01:13 <oil> really
Sep 15 03:01:28 <rwhitby> http://webos.pastebin.com/d4bb92dcf
Sep 15 03:01:35 <rwhitby> really :-)
Sep 15 03:01:39 <oil> sorry
Sep 15 03:01:42 <oil> i was going to type something else
Sep 15 03:01:47 <oil> i didnt mean it like that
Sep 15 03:01:55 <oil> i lost the other pastebin though
Sep 15 03:02:07 <sampson> rwhitby: looks like org.webosinternals.openssh_5.2.1-4_armv7.ipk doesn't install properly
Sep 15 03:02:13 <rwhitby> oil: no probs
Sep 15 03:02:13 <oil> the version its printing
Sep 15 03:02:14 <sampson> i don't see ssh in /opt/bin
Sep 15 03:02:16 <oil> is the 'version' field
Sep 15 03:02:24 <Eguy> netsplits?
Sep 15 03:02:25 <oil> not the 'installedversion' field
Sep 15 03:02:48 <oil> so even though the second one says old is 018
Sep 15 03:02:48 <oil> thats the update
Sep 15 03:02:48 <rwhitby> sampson: ah, did you use ipkgservice 0.9.0 and preware 0.8.6 to install it?
Sep 15 03:02:57 <oil> installed version is probably 013
Sep 15 03:03:00 <sampson> i installed the ipk through quick install
Sep 15 03:03:03 <oil> since it says hasUpdate = true
Sep 15 03:03:04 <sampson> openssl & zlib showed up
Sep 15 03:03:06 <sampson> openssh didn't
Sep 15 03:03:20 <rwhitby> sampson: ah, quickinstall doesn't do update-alternatives correctly yet.
Sep 15 03:03:41 <oil> it will just require more checks
Sep 15 03:03:42 <rwhitby> sampson: reinstall openssh using preware 0.8.6
Sep 15 03:03:49 <oil> ill check it out when im done eating
Sep 15 03:03:54 <rwhitby> oil: thanks.
Sep 15 03:03:54 <sampson> just from the regular apps list?
Sep 15 03:04:14 <rwhitby> sampson: select "Show All Package Types" in the prefs
Sep 15 03:04:22 <rwhitby> sampson: then go to Type: Optware
Sep 15 03:05:28 <sampson> ok hold on
Sep 15 03:07:22 <sampson> rwhitby: that worked!
Sep 15 03:07:52 <rwhitby> sampson: so zlib and openssl fix it?
Sep 15 03:08:15 <sampson> yep... im talking from it now
Sep 15 03:09:16 * sportman just has shitty luck
Sep 15 03:09:21 * sportman followed install instructions
Sep 15 03:09:23 <sportman> :(
Sep 15 03:10:50 <bclancy> I'm not getting anywhere trying to add the custom test feed:  "I thought I might need to add "all" to the URL, but that didn't work either - Should I add /Packages/ to that or soimething?
Sep 15 03:10:59 <bclancy> http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/testing/all
Sep 15 03:11:59 <bclancy> If nobody has suggestions, I can either search the IRC logs or give up for tonight.
Sep 15 03:13:47 <zsoc> bclancy, sorry mate, dunno, not familiar enough with quickinstall
Sep 15 03:14:13 <oil> i tried to add the feed to quick install before
Sep 15 03:14:16 <oil> and never got it working and gave up
Sep 15 03:14:39 <bclancy> NP, thx - I'll just give up for now - thx
Sep 15 03:14:52 <Azalyn> will the apps on preware interfere with updates from palm? i read in the wiki that some apps like the touch keyboard do some deep modifications to the system
Sep 15 03:15:19 <oil> the keyboard is not an app
Sep 15 03:15:24 <oil> its a patch to palms files
Sep 15 03:15:30 <Azalyn> ah
Sep 15 03:16:13 <sportman> any irc apps for the pre yet?
Sep 15 03:16:33 <Azalyn> i'm just wondering if i should wait for 1.2 before putting any homebrew on mine
Sep 15 03:17:14 <acydlord> no irc apps yet
Sep 15 03:17:14 <Azalyn> sportman: first day i came here i asked the same :) - apparently there's a plan laid out for one
Sep 15 03:17:22 <Azalyn> but no actual app yet.
Sep 15 03:17:23 <rwhitby> Azalyn: patches and tweaks need to be removed.  apps dont't.
Sep 15 03:17:24 <acydlord> qirc probably wouldnt be hard to port
Sep 15 03:17:25 <sportman> ah
Sep 15 03:17:35 <sportman> thanks for the answer Azalyn
Sep 15 03:17:42 * sportman hopes to get the terminal app working soon then
Sep 15 03:17:47 <sportman> ill just use irssi
Sep 15 03:17:55 <sportman> if i get it working (the terminal app that is)
Sep 15 03:17:58 <sportman> brb...
Sep 15 03:18:37 <zsoc> bbl
Sep 15 03:19:09 <Azalyn> rwhitby: ah, alright.
Sep 15 03:20:17 * rwhitby is working on packaging irssi for preware command line
Sep 15 03:20:33 <geist> aww yeah
Sep 15 03:22:17 <rwhitby> geist: is that a positive or negative comment? ;-)
Sep 15 03:22:41 <geist> nothing is complete without irssi
Sep 15 03:22:59 <bpadalino> sounds like bootie needs irssi
Sep 15 03:23:29 <punzada> i've been using irssi in the terminal app
Sep 15 03:23:34 <punzada> so happy with it
Sep 15 03:23:47 <punzada> the fact i can irssi from my phone is amazing
Sep 15 03:23:57 <punzada> i just need to set up bitlbee
Sep 15 03:24:15 <rwhitby> punzada: that's what I will be packaging so that it can be installed using Preware
Sep 15 03:24:23 <rwhitby> (irssi)
Sep 15 03:24:30 <punzada> good stuff
Sep 15 03:24:42 <Azalyn> rwhitby: i'm trying to donate through paypal, but the email mentioned in this thread doesn't seem to work http://forums.precentral.net/palm-general-chat/202126-rwhitby-needs-pre.html
Sep 15 03:25:05 <rwhitby> Azalyn: rod-needs-a-pre@rwhitby.net should work fine.
Sep 15 03:25:12 <rwhitby> oops, hang on.
Sep 15 03:25:31 <rwhitby> that's "buy-rod-a-pre@rwhitby.net"
Sep 15 03:26:22 <punzada> i've been slowly forcing myself to know my way around the sdk and mojo, i'm failing pretty hard on it though
Sep 15 03:27:08 <Azalyn> odd, it works now. maybe i mispasted it.
Sep 15 03:27:59 <rwhitby> hmm - does anyone need perl support in irssi on the Pre?
Sep 15 03:28:17 <sampson> that's what shells are for :P
Sep 15 03:28:33 <sampson> although perl in general would be pretty cool on the pre if it could be integrated into apps
Sep 15 03:28:35 <Azalyn> there, done.
Sep 15 03:29:07 <gkatsev> rwhitby: doesnt irssi need perl to work?
Sep 15 03:29:14 <sampson> only for scripts
Sep 15 03:29:18 <rwhitby> gkatsev: dunno, I don't use irssi.
Sep 15 03:29:24 <sampson> you can compile it without perl support
Sep 15 03:29:41 <gkatsev> sampson: is there one like that?
Sep 15 03:29:47 <rwhitby> sampson: yeah, that's why I'm asking.  Perl is a big dependency for the Pre if you don't need it
Sep 15 03:29:55 <gkatsev> rwhitby: i guess there should be irssi and irssi-lite?
Sep 15 03:30:22 <sampson> you can configure irssi --with-perl=no
Sep 15 03:30:25 <gkatsev> most irssi scripts are in perl, so would be useful to have it at least
Sep 15 03:30:35 <rwhitby> so, who has alpha tested ipkgservice 0.9.0, and is it ready for the public feeds?
Sep 15 03:30:41 <ashi__colo> I've got irssi on my pre. I haven't tried using scripts on it.
Sep 15 03:30:43 <sampson> although yeah, scripts will be useless
Sep 15 03:31:02 <ashi__colo> I used ipkg-opt install.
Sep 15 03:31:26 <gkatsev> rwhitby: if you can do both irssi (with perl) and irssi-lite (without perl), would be best
Sep 15 03:31:47 <sampson> you can do --with-perl=module
Sep 15 03:32:05 <sampson> but perl would be a pain to maintain... cpan relies on a lot of userland tools
Sep 15 03:33:05 <Azalyn> i would say that if you want perl on the pre, it might be a better idea to ssh to an actual machine
Sep 15 03:34:12 <rwhitby> Azalyn: perl is already available on the Pre
Sep 15 03:34:34 <rwhitby> it's just not repackaged for the Preware feed with icon, description, etc.
Sep 15 03:35:12 <Azalyn> *eventually* i imagine someone out there would make a webos frontend in html/css/js for an irc client backend running natively on the pre. which could integrate with notification (for /query ) and so on.
Sep 15 03:35:27 <rwhitby> sampson: can you test readline and bash from the public feed for me to make sure they run on the Pre?
Sep 15 03:35:48 <rwhitby> Azalyn: PuffTheMagic is working on that I believe.
Sep 15 03:38:41 <Azalyn> yeah, i might've heard about it i think. although i wasn't sure if he meant "service" as in the palm remote service thing or whatever.. or a local daemon/backend/etc.
Sep 15 03:41:22 <Azalyn> or i probably don't know what i'm talking about. :|
Sep 15 03:42:31 <Azalyn> i just read posts on forums talking about how mojo apps would have to work with services remotely or whatever. but now that i'm reading about it on palm's site, it doesn't sound anything like that.
Sep 15 03:43:54 * rwhitby thinks that https://sites.google.com/a/dataliberation.org/www/home should be applied to homebrew submission sites too
Sep 15 03:47:08 <rwhitby> man, irssi has lots of deps.  too many for a quick packaging today.
Sep 15 03:49:47 <Azalyn> for now i just wish there was at least one irc website using javascript that worked decently.
Sep 15 03:49:54 <Azalyn> if at least mibbit worked
Sep 15 03:54:31 <DraX> Azalyn: mibbit doesn't work on the pre?
Sep 15 03:55:15 <gkatsev> it does
Sep 15 03:55:21 <gkatsev> it should
Sep 15 03:55:26 <DraX> rwhitby: http://hg.suckless.org/ii/file/1584832e6f96 you could package up ii :D
Sep 15 03:55:35 <DraX> yeah i can't think of any reason it wouldn't
Sep 15 03:56:53 <Azalyn> hm
Sep 15 03:57:51 <Azalyn> i had seen threads on forums of it being broken.
Sep 15 03:58:22 <rwhitby> DraX: interesting
Sep 15 03:58:40 <rwhitby> DraX: so could you use Internalz as the UI client for that?
Sep 15 03:59:39 <DraX> rwhitby: i've never used ii, but presumebly so
Sep 15 04:00:35 <DraX> rwhitby: i also presume you could use FileMgr service to write a crappy ui for it very quickly
Sep 15 04:01:26 <rwhitby> DraX: it wasn't written by the Plan9 guys was it?
Sep 15 04:01:46 <rwhitby> so, no alpha testing reports on ipkgservice 0.9.0 ?
Sep 15 04:01:56 <DraX> rwhitby: it was written by the suckless guys, who are tangentially relted to the plan 9 guys
Sep 15 04:02:06 <DraX> rwhitby: they did wmii, dwm, dmenu, etc
Sep 15 04:02:23 <DraX> they actually have another irc client that's in pure plan 9 rc
Sep 15 04:07:09 <DraX> want Pre!
Sep 15 04:10:10 <Azalyn> i just tried mibbit. i can't see the "go" button. :|
Sep 15 04:10:15 <Azalyn> and so i can't click on it
Sep 15 04:10:43 <Azalyn> i'm not sure if there's a way to tab on the pre. :|
Sep 15 04:10:52 <Azalyn> to try and select it even though i can't see it
Sep 15 04:11:40 <rwhitby> geist: ping
Sep 15 04:12:10 <rwhitby> geist: what would be the easiest way to use novacom to set an environment variable and immediately run a script that uses that var?
Sep 15 04:12:22 <Azalyn> hitting enter in the text entry field doesn't work either. (works on desktop)
Sep 15 04:12:38 <rwhitby> geist: does "FOO=bar ./script" work?
Sep 15 04:27:30 <geist> probably the best way would be to push a script and run it
Sep 15 04:27:41 <geist> the VAR=blah syntax doesn't work, no
Sep 15 04:27:46 <geist> though that would be a nice extension
Sep 15 04:36:59 <rwhitby> geist: I figured it out: "/bin/sh -c 'export FOO=bar ; ./script"
Sep 15 04:37:08 <rwhitby> oops - add the trailing '
Sep 15 04:37:44 <geist> rwhitby: ah yeah
Sep 15 04:38:04 <geist> and also put -- after novacom but before the args to make sure novacom itself doesn't parse it
Sep 15 04:38:13 <geist> it's a getopt thing, says 'dont parse any more args'
Sep 15 04:38:34 <rwhitby> geist: yep.  this is in WebOS Quick Install, calling the runProgram Java interface
Sep 15 04:38:43 <rwhitby> (which does that automagically)
Sep 15 04:39:08 <rwhitby> we need to pass IPKG_OFFLINE_ROOT=/var when running a postinst script which calls update-alternatives ....
Sep 15 04:40:44 <rwhitby> so both dropbear and openssh have a shot at owning /opt/bin/scp depending on which you have installed
Sep 15 04:52:50 <rwhitby> Decimation: ping
Sep 15 04:57:49 <oc80z> whats good
Sep 15 05:02:13 <rwhitby> oc80z: alpha testing of lots of stuff in http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/testing/
Sep 15 05:02:35 <egaudet> who has a mac?
Sep 15 05:02:41 <egaudet> what is mac's scp alternative
Sep 15 05:06:52 <jkc> mac osx is freebsd and runs scp
Sep 15 05:08:54 <Rick_Villarreal> help, trying to access linux on my pre. after running novaterm it is not asking me to log in
Sep 15 05:10:05 <rwhitby> egaudet: scp runs fine on my mac here
Sep 15 05:12:59 <egaudet> ok i've never used mac so i didn't know, but wanted to suggest a mac user what to use to copy files out of pre
Sep 15 05:13:02 <egaudet> good to know thanks
Sep 15 05:13:54 <egaudet> good night
Sep 15 05:18:28 <gkatsev> destinal: does the terminal app have auditory/visual bells?
Sep 15 10:58:15 * rwhitby starts http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=libraries/luna-headers.git;a=blob;f=README
Sep 15 11:40:11 <rwhitby> http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=libraries/luna-headers.git;a=blob;f=lunaservice.h <- anyone want to help?
Sep 15 11:47:37 <tmzt> what is it?
Sep 15 11:52:52 <rwhitby> tmzt: header files required for C services, clean room design from the open source C code that Palm has released.
Sep 15 12:30:13 <rwhitby> Optware packages announced: http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/4003408022
Sep 15 13:03:11 <sampson> rwhitby: do you still need me to test those?
Sep 15 13:04:05 <rwhitby> sampson: sure, except they've been renamed now, so you'll want to uninstall any existing ones, update to Package Manager 0.9.1 and reinstall from the new Optware feed (mobi.optware.* packages)
Sep 15 13:09:25 * rwhitby bbt
Sep 15 13:10:38 <sampson> was openssl/ssh/zlib updated?
Sep 15 13:12:21 <sampson> you got an example binary on there i can use to test readline
Sep 15 13:31:58 <sportman> ah shit
Sep 15 13:32:11 <sportman> the classrom im in is stuck on the border
Sep 15 13:32:15 <sportman> or EV with sprint
Sep 15 13:32:19 <sportman> at like 0 bars
Sep 15 13:32:26 <sportman> and i know there are like 5 bars of vzw here
Sep 15 13:32:31 <sportman> but its struggling to hold onto the ev
Sep 15 13:32:45 <sampson> so do the force roaming tweak
Sep 15 13:33:00 <sportman> i do enjoy the ev sometimes
Sep 15 13:33:15 <sportman> if there was a roaming evdo tweak id be happy :-p
Sep 15 13:33:18 <sportman> fucken 1x
Sep 15 13:46:20 <en0x> hmm wtf
Sep 15 13:46:38 <en0x> i have all the feeds added to my preware and it shows that there is only 24 apps
Sep 15 13:46:44 <tmzt> sportman: bash?
Sep 15 13:47:38 <tmzt> is preware using .desktop files or something simliar for the enhanced metadata?
Sep 15 13:47:52 <sportman> what about bash tmzt ?
Sep 15 13:48:21 <tmzt> random binary for testing readline
Sep 15 13:49:37 <sportman> ah
Sep 15 13:49:38 <sportman> cool
Sep 15 14:01:25 <sampson> the roaming tweak is 1x only?
Sep 15 14:01:33 <sampson> that would explain why i couldn't get evdo off alltel
Sep 15 14:16:10 <en0x> hmm
Sep 15 14:16:15 <en0x> sprint changed their shit?
Sep 15 14:16:17 <en0x> Please note: purchases from the App Catalog are offered and supported by Palm®.
Sep 15 14:16:45 <en0x> when  i login to sprint website it wants me to buy apps for pre
Sep 15 14:16:46 <en0x> lol
Sep 15 14:16:47 <en0x> Looking for digital media and applications for your Palm® Pre™?
Sep 15 14:16:47 <en0x> It's easy to find applications, games and more for your Palm Pre. From your phone, just go to Launcher > App Catalog. Learn more...
Sep 15 14:17:02 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: idk why you are mirroring the lunaheader im working on
Sep 15 14:17:07 <PuffTheMagic> cause i keep adding to it
Sep 15 14:17:18 <PuffTheMagic> so you prob have an outdated one there
Sep 15 14:18:24 <en0x> oh sprint is hmmm
Sep 15 14:18:40 <en0x> they moving everybody who is on everything data to new anytime anymobile
Sep 15 14:18:55 <sampson> rwhitby went to sleep i believe PuffTheMagic
Sep 15 14:20:18 <Rick_work> sampson,  your everything data plan only covers 1x data when roaming, and only LIMITED amounts of that.
Sep 15 14:21:44 <sampson> whaaaaaat
Sep 15 14:21:55 <sampson> what happened to evdo roaming on alltel
Sep 15 14:22:11 <sampson> that can't be right i roamed evdo fine on my blackberry
Sep 15 14:24:42 <sampson> oh well sprint's going evdo by end of this month
Sep 15 14:55:50 <sportman> sampson: im not sure? i coudl have sworn all data roaming is 1x only
Sep 15 14:56:10 <sportman> that you could only do evdo on sprints network?
Sep 15 14:56:22 <sportman> cause on my vzw phone here i have 4 bars evdo
Sep 15 14:56:32 <sportman> and on my pre i have 4 bars 1 x roaming
Sep 15 14:58:46 <Rick_work> Sprint's roaming agreements do not include evdo roaming as far as I understand.
Sep 15 14:59:07 <Rick_work> A call to sprint support, escalated to second tier probably,should settle that.
Sep 15 14:59:15 <sampson> verizon and sprint are 1x only
Sep 15 14:59:24 <sampson> but us cellular & alltel have an evdo roaming agreement with sprint
Sep 15 14:59:47 <sampson> this i'm 100% positive of
Sep 15 15:01:01 <sportman> ah
Sep 15 15:01:04 <sportman> cool
Sep 15 15:01:16 <sportman> i dunno if the force prevents evdo on alltell or not
Sep 15 15:04:25 * sportman installs palm sdk
Sep 15 15:04:26 <sportman> :-p
Sep 15 15:17:20 <sportman> i just got to root
Sep 15 15:17:22 <sportman> on my mac
Sep 15 15:17:22 <sportman> :)
Sep 15 15:17:36 <sportman> i mean root on my pre from my mac ... how do i enable apt?
Sep 15 15:17:39 <sportman> is that part of optware?
Sep 15 15:20:30 <sampson> apt?
Sep 15 15:20:36 <sampson> you install preware & package manager
Sep 15 15:20:48 <sampson> then you use preware to install apps
Sep 15 15:23:01 <sportman> sampson:  nvm
Sep 15 15:23:19 <sportman> im looking to install debian
Sep 15 15:23:21 <sportman> on the pre
Sep 15 15:23:28 <sportman> i foudn the how to
Sep 15 15:23:29 <sportman> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Debian#How_to_install_Debian
Sep 15 15:23:38 <sportman> thats how im gonna get apt working :)
Sep 15 15:26:12 <PuffTheMagic> Rick_work: you can data roam off network
Sep 15 15:26:19 <PuffTheMagic> that is included in most plans now
Sep 15 15:26:45 <PuffTheMagic> i know i can data roam with out charge on sprint
Sep 15 15:26:59 <en0x> preware is pissing me off
Sep 15 15:27:17 <sportman> why so en0x ?
Sep 15 15:27:55 <PuffTheMagic> lol
Sep 15 15:27:56 <en0x> i had to reinstall it
Sep 15 15:28:08 <en0x> and now it only shows 24 apps available
Sep 15 15:28:08 <en0x> lol
Sep 15 15:32:39 <en0x> available applications 23
Sep 15 15:32:44 <en0x> where is the rest :S
Sep 15 15:36:31 <Doc_exe> u forgot teh service
Sep 15 15:36:37 <Doc_exe> that needs to run too
Sep 15 15:36:43 <en0x> it is running
Sep 15 15:36:55 <en0x> well there is no repo config to precentral in /var/etc/ipkg
Sep 15 15:36:56 <en0x> hmm
Sep 15 15:36:59 <Doc_exe> it likes to crash
Sep 15 15:37:50 <en0x> i know its running
Sep 15 15:37:53 <en0x> well in /var/usr/lib/ipkg/info/org.webosinternals.ipkgservice.postinst
Sep 15 15:38:02 <en0x> there is nothing about precentral repo
Sep 15 15:40:15 <en0x> root@castle:/var/etc/ipkg# cat precentral.conf
Sep 15 15:40:16 <en0x> src/gz all http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/precentral
Sep 15 15:40:20 <en0x> and now it looks ok
Sep 15 15:43:33 <can_> how do i turn off dev mode after i enable it?
Sep 15 15:44:17 <gkatsev> can_: by getting dev mode launcher or by entering the konami code by hand
Sep 15 15:44:30 <gkatsev> can_: and then turning it off
Sep 15 15:45:12 <sampson> now what would you gain running debian on an already linux phone
Sep 15 15:46:07 <can_> gkatsev: by just turning the screen off with the corner button? or pulling the battery?
Sep 15 15:51:41 <gkatsev> can_: no, "then turning it off" i mean as in, switching the button that comes up to the off position, in which case it will ask you if you want to reset the phone, in which case you press yes. (reset == restart)
Sep 15 15:53:58 <can_> gkatvsev: okay. phone works normally even when dev mode is on, correct?
Sep 15 15:54:31 <gkatsev> yes, but it is slightly less secure
Sep 15 15:54:36 <can_> yeah
Sep 15 15:55:05 <can_> once i install sshd on it, do i need to leave dev mode on to ssh into it? I am guessing not.
Sep 15 15:55:25 <gkatsev> nope
Sep 15 16:00:24 <can_> iam i the only one that finds only 3 launcher screens and no named categories very annoying?
Sep 15 16:00:24 <can_> ;)
Sep 15 16:00:58 <gkatsev> can_: nope, but there is a patch that fixes it, the 3 launcher screens at least
Sep 15 16:01:14 <gkatsev> can_: dont forget universal search
Sep 15 16:02:50 <can_> yeah yeah
Sep 15 16:03:22 <can_> i like things nice and neat and tidy and categorized, even so.
Sep 15 16:04:06 <gkatsev> universal search is probably why the limited launcher to 3 pages at first
Sep 15 16:18:38 <xorg> how do I create a new topic in the wiki?  I'd like to start a topic to remove the install app limit for the app catalog
Sep 15 16:18:49 <xorg> i've started this precentral thread, would also like a wiki for it...
Sep 15 16:18:56 <xorg> http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/203168-removing-app-install-limit-app-catalog-research.html
Sep 15 16:20:19 <gkatsev> xorg: there should be a a link to create a new page, you could also search for something and if it doesnt find it itll ask you if you want to create the page for it
Sep 15 16:20:42 <xorg> thx, will try again... couldn't find it
Sep 15 16:23:36 <xorg> i've added the new page, feel free to update info, formatting, etc.
Sep 15 16:23:36 <xorg> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Removing_app_install_limit_in_App_Catalog
Sep 15 16:24:00 <xorg> it needs a link from the internals or modifying core apps section
Sep 15 16:25:31 <xorg> if it's not Palm kosher, feel free to remove
Sep 15 16:26:23 <gkatsev> im not a mod, but it seems fine, you didnt post any palm code, just discussion
Sep 15 16:26:38 <zomg> There's a limit on how many apps you can install? o_O
Sep 15 16:27:02 <PorkchopExpress> There is?
Sep 15 16:27:12 <gkatsev> zomg: from the app catalog yes, both a memory limit and an artificial limit. preware does not have this problem
Sep 15 16:27:12 <zomg> Well judging from what xorg asked..
Sep 15 16:27:26 <zomg> weird that there's an artificial limit
Sep 15 16:27:37 <zomg> I'd see a memory limit reasonable if you're running out of space on the device
Sep 15 16:28:08 <ashi__colo> I believe it was one of the limits imposed with the beta app catalogue.
Sep 15 16:28:24 <ashi__colo> So, that should be removed by Palm pretty soon.
Sep 15 16:28:50 <xorg> i've posted ideas, not very clean ideas but i could be a start to finding a solution
Sep 15 16:28:59 <xorg> i=it
Sep 15 16:29:48 <gkatsev> ashi__colo: we're hoping when it comes out of beta, the limit will be removed
Sep 15 16:30:15 <xorg> i hope so too but if it's going to be a while, i'd thought i'd share what i found so far
Sep 15 16:30:20 <ashi__colo> gkatsev: yup, that's what I figured.
Sep 15 16:30:27 <ashi__colo> xorg: thanks :)
Sep 15 16:37:56 <PuffTheMagic> calling all json/js experts
Sep 15 16:38:07 <PuffTheMagic> to forward slashes break string/keys
Sep 15 16:38:25 <PuffTheMagic> {"/proc/loadaverage":[0.56,0.39,0.30]}
Sep 15 16:38:27 <PuffTheMagic> like that
Sep 15 16:38:31 <PuffTheMagic> will that key be an issue?
Sep 15 16:42:22 <v3ritas> Has anyone gotten the optware tar working?  i installed it but it doesn't seem to have any more options than the default.
Sep 15 16:43:30 <egaudet_zzz> no
Sep 15 16:43:43 <egaudet_zzz> puff forward slash should be fine
Sep 15 17:06:24 <v3ritas> sorry to bother about this again, but i'm trying to get zip to backup the file system with: [[ zip -vr /media/internal/Backups/09-15-09.zip / -x "/proc/*" -x "/sys/*" -x "/media/internal/*" ]] Any reason why i would keep getting "zip warning: name not matched"?
Sep 15 17:16:56 <sportman> ok so im trying to chroot
Sep 15 17:16:57 <sportman> my pre
Sep 15 17:17:03 <sportman> and im noticing that i need to do resizefs
Sep 15 17:17:09 <sportman> im on mac, is there a way to do that? :)
Sep 15 17:18:25 <tmzt> compile e2tools?
Sep 15 17:19:01 <Mousey> wow, so
Sep 15 17:19:03 <Mousey> hi!
Sep 15 17:19:07 <Mousey> and wow! thanks!
Sep 15 17:19:10 <Mousey> ^_^
Sep 15 17:19:14 <Mousey> that is all..
Sep 15 17:19:15 * Mousey lurks
Sep 15 17:27:11 <sportman> thanks tmzt
Sep 15 17:34:21 <sportman> woo downloading dev tools
Sep 15 17:34:26 <sportman> PITA :(
Sep 15 17:35:48 <sportman> 2 minutes left :-p
Sep 15 17:43:20 <sportman> go go gadget install :-p
Sep 15 17:48:00 <can_> hmm
Sep 15 17:48:35 <can_> so any micro usb cable works, even though sprint says they dont?
Sep 15 17:49:49 <gkatsev> can_: theoretically, yes. practically, i dont know...
Sep 15 17:50:22 <tmzt> the big news!! http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/14/palm-pixi-processor-chipset-specs-get-detailed-at-last/
Sep 15 17:50:27 <tmzt> it has two cores!!!
Sep 15 17:50:33 <tmzt> ones a modem processor!!!
Sep 15 17:50:45 <can_> i bought the touchstone and it didnt come with its own cable :(
Sep 15 17:51:56 <can_> is there a way to run a shell right on the pre, without having to remote into it?
Sep 15 17:52:16 <Robi_> there is a terminal app
Sep 15 17:52:19 <gkatsev> can_: yep. http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Terminal
Sep 15 17:52:37 <Robi_> there a preware installer yet?
Sep 15 17:52:49 <can_> cool!
Sep 15 17:53:00 <can_> gkatse: i was looknig at ajaxterm. this looks better.
Sep 15 17:53:24 <oc80z> whats good.
Sep 15 17:53:49 <oc80z> yeah, the terminal application is solid.
Sep 15 17:54:01 <gkatsev> Robi_: yes, there is. terminal service and terminal
Sep 15 17:54:24 <Robi_> gkatsev: chicken and egg still i see
Sep 15 17:54:33 <gkatsev> Robi_: ?
Sep 15 17:55:37 <Robi_> ppl w/o term/ssh enabled cant install $app, that preware installs, which needs same prerequisite
Sep 15 17:56:08 <gkatsev> Robi_: you can install preware via webos quick install
Sep 15 17:56:36 * can_ contemplates difference betweeen mojo and optware.
Sep 15 17:56:43 <Robi_> newbs wont choose that route
Sep 15 17:56:59 <gkatsev> Robi_: webos quick install? they should.
Sep 15 17:57:34 <Robi_> too many techy steps as one user put it
Sep 15 17:58:18 <gkatsev> well, you can install terminal from webos quick install as well, since it has the preware/webosinternals feeds
Sep 15 18:00:07 <Robi_> 'course, they'll wait till its all in one app ;-/
Sep 15 18:02:08 <egaudet_zzz> You can't install anything from a stock pre outside of the app catalog or via devmode+novacom
Sep 15 18:03:00 <egaudet_zzz> And this will probably never change
Sep 15 18:03:35 <egaudet_zzz> everything outside the app catalog is "beta/testing" software
Sep 15 18:08:44 <xorg_> i've posted a proposal to homebrew community to install apps in /media/internal...
Sep 15 18:08:44 <xorg_> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Proposal_to_install_Homebrew_apps_on_/media/internal_%28USB_partition%29
Sep 15 18:09:02 <xorg_> please discuss pros and cons on that new page
Sep 15 18:12:04 <xorg_> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Proposal_to_install_Homebrew_apps_on_/media/internal_%28USB_partition%29
Sep 15 18:17:01 <Templarian> xorg_: I like this, except for the path name. "apps" would be better.
Sep 15 18:17:28 <Templarian> It's implied that palm apps are not going to be under internals.
Sep 15 18:17:55 <xorg_> yea, any name is fine, just want to propose putting it on that filesystem instead
Sep 15 18:18:19 <Templarian> It might be better to have this an on off switch in the preferences.
Sep 15 18:18:32 <Templarian> I wouldn't put it on by default.
Sep 15 18:19:03 <Templarian> What tells the device what's the root?
Sep 15 18:19:37 <xorg_> the app path is all that is needed to change in /etc/palm/luna.conf... i've tested it and it works
Sep 15 18:20:11 <Templarian> No I mean, Is it possible to set the root of the file system to what one sees it under usb as the root? or is internals a seperate partition?
Sep 15 18:20:20 <xorg_> it's sort of a subset of this method...
Sep 15 18:20:20 <xorg_> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Patch_webOS_Modifying_a_Stock_App_While_Keeping_the_Original
Sep 15 18:20:41 <xorg_> ah, i see
Sep 15 18:20:54 <xorg_> i wasn't proposing that detail, but it's an idea
Sep 15 18:21:17 <xorg_> was just thinking it would be an exposed folder on /media/internal
Sep 15 18:21:18 <Templarian> It seems like a good "patch" for developers.
Sep 15 18:21:30 <Templarian> Or a way to do a shorcut folder?
Sep 15 18:21:56 <Templarian> Like a fake folder (not even sure if it's possible).
Sep 15 18:22:21 <RainMan> hi i'm the only one with "JIT" debug messange on every input in novaterm ?
Sep 15 18:22:28 <Templarian> (just throwing out ideas instead of throwing them into the internals folder)
Sep 15 18:22:58 <Templarian> RainMan: ??
Sep 15 18:23:08 <RainMan> i can connect to my pre via novaterm
Sep 15 18:23:15 <RainMan> but if i input a caracter
Sep 15 18:23:23 <RainMan> i got a "jit" debugg message (just in time)
Sep 15 18:23:30 <RainMan> on every f*** keypress
Sep 15 18:24:11 <Templarian> Oh yea, Windows 7
Sep 15 18:24:27 <Templarian> Yea, it's a bug that never got fixed.
Sep 15 18:24:32 <RainMan> workaround ? or i'm screwd
Sep 15 18:25:03 <Templarian> Not sure, we were going to look into it and everyone got distracted. I think you can just install optware and use ssh.
Sep 15 18:25:10 <RainMan> it'S that or webosdoctor ...  i cant login via ssh anymore ! ... damn update in preware
Sep 15 18:25:59 <Templarian> Yea, not sure I don't do the technical stuff on my Pre, might have to wait for someone else to help out.
Sep 15 18:27:31 <FreeTim> that happend to me too! I can no longer SSH in , after the PreWare install recently
Sep 15 18:27:52 <RainMan> FreeTim it'S because i've updated the dropbear and openssh
Sep 15 18:28:13 <RainMan> and i have custom config ... so my custom config got away !..
Sep 15 18:28:33 <RainMan> and if i log to port 22 ... it connect but " no authentification method" lol
Sep 15 18:28:35 <Templarian> RainMan: wouldn't moving the file system for the services mess things up?
Sep 15 18:29:13 <RainMan> nope working okay in the begining ! it'S after the preware update of dropbear and openssh
Sep 15 18:29:41 <RainMan> but i think i will doctor it ! and stay with the base setting
Sep 15 18:29:46 <Templarian> RainMan: it could just be a bad update or change. Wait for rwhitby or one of them to look into it.
Sep 15 18:29:55 <RainMan> kk
Sep 15 18:30:16 <RainMan> at least the phone work #1 .. juste stuck out of it ! and i will not type all the cmd on the shell lol
Sep 15 18:30:19 <Templarian> They've been making some changes recently that could of effected other small things by accident.
Sep 15 18:30:33 <Templarian> Does terminal still work?
Sep 15 18:30:38 <RainMan> yup
Sep 15 18:30:45 <RainMan> it'S realy a firewall
Sep 15 18:30:58 <RainMan> but my default shell in my pre is bash
Sep 15 18:31:08 <RainMan> i will try sh instead
Sep 15 18:31:10 <Templarian> Why do your s's keep going to caps?
Sep 15 18:32:02 <RainMan> my left hand is faster that my right hand ! hehe
Sep 15 18:32:09 <RainMan> left =s  right = shift lol
Sep 15 18:32:30 <Templarian> Why are you pressing shift at all?
Sep 15 18:32:33 <Templarian> oh...
Sep 15 18:32:44 <Templarian> lol yea that's messed up.
Sep 15 18:37:09 <RainMan> well "No Supported authentication methods available"
Sep 15 19:21:01 <sampson> how can i grab an installed app from my pre
Sep 15 19:21:11 <sampson> i want to poke around at an app
Sep 15 19:23:32 <gkatsev> sampson: 1) you can view the source by sshing into it and then looking around. 2) if you unarchive an ipk and look around in that
Sep 15 19:24:11 <Rick_work> sampson  do you have the IPK you installed from?
Sep 15 19:24:21 <Rick_work> or do you want to look at one of the pre-installed apps?
Sep 15 19:24:53 <sampson> i want to look at the accuweather app
Sep 15 19:26:35 <Rick_work> k
Sep 15 19:26:51 <Rick_work> the accuweather app is in /usr/palm/applications
Sep 15 19:27:01 <Rick_work> no wait
Sep 15 19:27:05 <Rick_work> that's an appstore app
Sep 15 19:27:09 <sampson> yeah
Sep 15 19:27:19 <Rick_work> its in  /var/usr/palm/applications
Sep 15 19:27:22 <Rick_work> go there
Sep 15 19:27:23 <Rick_work> do an ls
Sep 15 19:27:32 <sampson> ah cool
Sep 15 19:27:35 <Rick_work> find the directory name for it  -- pretendd it's xxxxx
Sep 15 19:27:48 <Rick_work> and then  cp xxxxx /media/internal
Sep 15 19:28:06 <Rick_work> then you can plug the pre in as a USB drive and copy it off onto your PC.
Sep 15 19:28:11 <sampson> cp -r :P
Sep 15 19:28:16 <Rick_work> whatever
Sep 15 19:28:30 <sampson> cool thanks
Sep 15 19:28:35 <Rick_work> welcome
Sep 15 19:58:49 <sampson> wooha disabled the ad slider on accuweather
Sep 15 19:59:22 <Templarian> sampson: your probably not the only one hehe.
Sep 15 19:59:27 <sampson> :)
Sep 15 20:00:31 <gkatsev> lol
Sep 15 20:01:38 <Templarian> Surprised no one has made a weather.com one. Their API is just a simple xml file if I recall.
Sep 15 20:03:16 <gkatsev> wunderground FTW
Sep 15 20:04:11 <can_> sampson: sah, how hard is that to do? ;)
Sep 15 20:04:37 <Templarian> can_: he probably just deleted the peice of code that performs the animation.
Sep 15 20:04:40 <sampson> all i did was disable the animation and the ad request
Sep 15 20:04:43 <sampson> yup
Sep 15 20:04:56 <sampson> although i killed the ad request too i'm stuck in 1x land until next month
Sep 15 20:05:02 <oil> all i did was step outside and look up to see how the weather was
Sep 15 20:05:09 <can_> is the little arrow on the left side still there?
Sep 15 20:05:11 <sampson> that don't show you no radar
Sep 15 20:05:14 <sampson> yeah can_
Sep 15 20:05:18 * oil cares not about weather
Sep 15 20:05:23 <sampson> can't slide anymore though
Sep 15 20:05:42 <Templarian> http://thefuckingweather.com/?zipcode=49009 << it's warm.
Sep 15 20:05:48 <can_> he arrow is annoying too though ;)
Sep 15 20:06:03 <sampson> yeah but that's actual work
Sep 15 20:06:06 <oil> http://thefuckingweather.com/?zipcode=98902
Sep 15 20:06:11 <can_> hehe
Sep 15 20:06:30 <oil> someone should turn that into a weather app
Sep 15 20:06:35 <oil> i might actually look at it
Sep 15 20:06:54 <Templarian> that's my main weather button.
Sep 15 20:07:54 * oil goes back to work
Sep 15 20:08:32 <sampson> same i got some dbs that aren't going to fix themselves
Sep 15 20:09:57 <can_> is there a facebook app coming?
Sep 15 20:12:04 <sampson> yes
Sep 15 20:12:10 <sampson> they announced that when they announced the pixie
Sep 15 20:12:15 <sampson> who knows when but by xmas
Sep 15 20:12:17 <Decimation> the zunehd looks SEXY
Sep 15 20:12:28 <tmzt> it's Pixi
Sep 15 20:12:57 <sampson> does anyone's radio on their phone go nuts when you're using novaterm
Sep 15 20:13:32 <Templarian> Decimation: of course it's sexy it's such a small device, that battery is like 80% of it. lol.
Sep 15 20:14:05 <Decimation> Templarian: lol, yeah.
Sep 15 20:14:09 <Decimation> gonna get one?
Sep 15 20:14:10 <can_> sampson: when using x.facebook.com it just doesnt seem to have everything. like i cant seem to see replies to status messages, unless i am notr looking in the right place.
Sep 15 20:14:26 <sampson> use friendsflowbeta
Sep 15 20:14:40 <sampson> it isn't fully integrated but it gives you those abilities
Sep 15 20:15:03 <Azalyn> do all smartphones have a light sensor to turn off the screen (saving battery life) during a call?
Sep 15 20:15:27 <Templarian> Decimation: probably not. I use pandora 100%.
Sep 15 20:15:38 <can_> thats a facebook app?
Sep 15 20:15:41 <Azalyn> or is this just another really cool pre thing.
Sep 15 20:15:43 <sampson> yes/no... they have auto shutoffs but pre uses a proximity sensor
Sep 15 20:15:55 <sampson> it also disables the touch screen
Sep 15 20:16:04 <Templarian> Decimation: Plus I'm going to end up just getting a Windows Mobile 7 phone eventually so not worth it.
Sep 15 20:16:05 <sampson> most all winmo phones don't do that so you start cheek pressing apps
Sep 15 20:16:32 <Azalyn> woah, proximity sensor. that is pretty cool
Sep 15 20:16:47 <Decimation> Templarian: yeah, webos is nice, but windows mobile 7 for sure has me sold for my next phone
Sep 15 20:16:49 <sampson> can_: http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/friendsflow
Sep 15 20:16:50 <Azalyn> i wonder what kind of neat apps you could make with that. heh
Sep 15 20:17:12 <sampson> windows mobile 7 doesn't even have any info yet
Sep 15 20:17:21 <sampson> microsoft is too busy pulling a vista with windows mobile 6.5
Sep 15 20:17:49 <Templarian> sampson: Yea, it's funny. That's why everyone is just waiting for windows movile 7.
Sep 15 20:18:06 <Azalyn> poo > winmo
Sep 15 20:18:09 <Templarian> Also the development tools are 500x better than any of it's competition.
Sep 15 20:18:11 <sampson> i know that i will never own another htc winmo product
Sep 15 20:18:24 <sampson> worst phones i've ever owned
Sep 15 20:18:51 <Azalyn> i've never owned any, but i will never trust microsoft with anything, ever.
Sep 15 20:18:51 <Decimation> oil: i like how preware is looking in the install scene
Sep 15 20:18:54 <Templarian> sampson: 480x800 minimum resolution on all future devices is the best part.
Sep 15 20:18:54 <Azalyn> especially my data.
Sep 15 20:18:56 <Decimation> like, the spinning wheel
Sep 15 20:19:01 <Decimation> and the launch icon
Sep 15 20:19:34 <Azalyn> Templarian: that's going to make those phones more expensive. :\
Sep 15 20:19:37 <Templarian> Azalyn: That's worse than the people that think Google is Skynet (they are, but deal with it).
Sep 15 20:19:52 <Azalyn> although arguably it will also drive economies of scale and make the screens *eventually* less expensive.
Sep 15 20:19:54 <Templarian> Azalyn: if they give me the full .net framework so be it.
Sep 15 20:20:36 <Azalyn> but if the industry wasn't so locked up with every played monopolizing their little corner, then competition would be driving the costs down anyways, without us needing to have one monopolist "decide" that a higher res will be the new standard. :|
Sep 15 20:21:04 <Azalyn> Templarian: It has nothing to do with the capabilities they have.
Sep 15 20:21:10 <Azalyn> It has to do with the reputation.
Sep 15 20:21:15 <Templarian> Azalyn: the screens are cheap as hell anyway. It's the other chips that cost money.
Sep 15 20:21:16 <sampson> tbqh the high res isn't that important due to pixel density
Sep 15 20:21:18 <Azalyn> Google has more power information-wise than Microsoft
Sep 15 20:21:23 <Azalyn> But I trust Microsoft less.
Sep 15 20:21:30 <sampson> the touch pro is 640x480 and i noticed no extra realestate on it considering you're using such a small screen
Sep 15 20:21:39 <sampson> it just makes widgest have to be 2x as big so you can navigate them
Sep 15 20:21:55 <Templarian> sampson: that's just how HTC does their UI.
Sep 15 20:22:03 <sampson> even in development Templarian
Sep 15 20:22:15 <sampson> i've written a lot of .net apps for windows mobile
Sep 15 20:22:27 <Azalyn> If Google ever *gives* me a reason not to trust them, then I wont.
Sep 15 20:22:45 <Azalyn> even if you're willing to give a company three strikes/chances.
Sep 15 20:23:06 <Azalyn> Microsoft has already exhausted all of theirs, no one should ever be doing business with them.
Sep 15 20:23:27 <gkatsev> moanmyip.com
Sep 15 20:24:48 <sampson> you know looking at the snapshots of leaked wm7 crap
Sep 15 20:24:51 <sampson> i'm still not impressed
Sep 15 20:25:01 <sampson> it looks just as ugly as windows ce 2000 was but with shinier buttons
Sep 15 20:25:23 <Templarian> sampson: there's a good chance that was just a skin of 6.5 and not windows mobile 7.
Sep 15 20:25:40 <sampson> unless microsoft ditches CE entirely i have very very little hope
Sep 15 20:25:45 <Templarian> One thing windows CE can do is be skinned in anyway they want.
Sep 15 20:26:09 <sampson> sure but it still is the same laggy dated crap
Sep 15 20:26:16 <Templarian> sampson: their new devices require a GPU also so expect it to be a complete recode of the UI.
Sep 15 20:26:24 <sampson> resistive touch screens required in 6.5?
Sep 15 20:26:28 <sampson> give me a fuckin break
Sep 15 20:26:39 <Templarian> sampson: no 6.5 can use captive.
Sep 15 20:26:51 <sampson> iirc they required resisitve with a windows key on each phone
Sep 15 20:26:57 <krope32> Hey I'm trying to remove a patch and I just have missed a step, i'm getting some errors about read only http://webos.pastebin.com/m1a53ad34
Sep 15 20:27:03 <sampson> this was around 6 or 7 months ago though so i could be wrong now
Sep 15 20:27:04 <Templarian> I still prefer resistive. I really want the Storm 2's screen on every device.
Sep 15 20:27:27 <gkatsev> krope32: mount -o remount,rw / ?
Sep 15 20:28:36 <Templarian> Although if the Zune HD is any indication of Windows Mobile 7, I have a good feeling many will be going back.
Sep 15 20:28:50 <krope32> that was it :-)
Sep 15 20:29:02 <gkatsev> MS should just make a zune phone
Sep 15 20:29:02 <krope32> thanks
Sep 15 20:29:06 <gkatsev> np
Sep 15 20:29:22 <Templarian> gkatsev: You know the Zune is just Windows CE right?
Sep 15 20:29:30 <Templarian> (with XNA)
Sep 15 20:29:34 <gkatsev> krope32: dont forget to mount -o remount,ro / afterwards
Sep 15 20:29:51 <gkatsev> Templarian: nope, but the ui looks great and the software is good as well, so, why not?
Sep 15 20:29:57 <krope32> ok, i got that too, thanks
Sep 15 20:30:00 <gkatsev> also, the hardware is great
Sep 15 20:31:03 <Decimation> yeah, this thing could be turned into a phone, no real effort at all
Sep 15 20:31:21 <Templarian> gkatsev: Yea, that's kind of where Windows Mobile 7 is going. They require a GPU (thus tegra), and they require a min screen of 800x480 (or widescreen). It's not that big of a jump really.
Sep 15 20:33:52 <gkatsev> ok, cool
Sep 15 20:34:08 <tobybot> hello all
Sep 15 20:34:45 <tobybot> anybody know off-hand if someone has undertaken some effort to allow removal of google talk contacts
Sep 15 20:35:01 <sampson> how do i change the order apps show in my launcher?
Sep 15 20:35:13 <gkatsev> sampson: press and hold till they get a halo
Sep 15 20:35:43 <tobybot> i'd hate to waste time poking through code just to out it is impossible, if someone else has already determined this
Sep 15 20:35:58 <tobybot> *to find out
Sep 15 20:36:13 <sampson> was file coaster outdated by preware?
Sep 15 20:36:40 <Decimation> sampson: a while ago :P
Sep 15 20:36:44 <sampson> k
Sep 15 20:36:52 <sampson> i just got my pre yesterday so i'm tryin to get up to speed :P
Sep 15 20:37:04 <Azalyn> i got mine yesterday too
Sep 15 20:37:06 <sampson> i got the oldschool treo ringtone on mine today \m/
Sep 15 20:37:09 <Decimation> ;) stick to preware
Sep 15 20:37:16 <Decimation> i think im gonna go to the store and get a new one
Sep 15 20:37:30 <gkatsev> preware is also opensource? while filecoaster isnt
Sep 15 20:37:31 <Decimation> mine was one of the first built so the quality is horrible.
Sep 15 20:37:50 <Decimation> and i have a dead pixel so theres my excuse
Sep 15 20:37:57 <sampson> how the hell can a pre app not be opensource?
Sep 15 20:38:02 <gkatsev> is there a way to find out when it was built?
Sep 15 20:38:07 <tobybot> preware is nice, but it seems like package manager stops running all the time
Sep 15 20:38:08 <sampson> you just go to where it was installed and you see everything
Sep 15 20:38:55 <Decimation> gkatsev: yes
Sep 15 20:39:06 <Decimation> tobybot: its never has for me..
Sep 15 20:39:09 <gkatsev> Decimation: how?
Sep 15 20:39:10 <sampson> ##786#
Sep 15 20:39:14 <Decimation> there ya go
Sep 15 20:39:16 <Decimation> warrentydate
Sep 15 20:39:17 <Decimation> or something
Sep 15 20:39:39 <Decimation> WARRANTYDATECODE
Sep 15 20:39:45 <Decimation> whats your gkatsev?
Sep 15 20:39:46 <gkatsev> 6/18/09
Sep 15 20:39:52 <Decimation> 5/20/09 :P
Sep 15 20:40:16 <sampson> 5/15/09 :P
Sep 15 20:40:29 <Decimation> :O
Sep 15 20:40:30 <Decimation> no way.
Sep 15 20:40:35 <sampson> yaway
Sep 15 20:40:37 <Mousey> toybot: about that, would restarting something with luna manager fix it instead of rebooting the whole phone when it happens?
Sep 15 20:40:38 <gkatsev> lifecalls? lifetmr?
Sep 15 20:40:47 <sampson> # of calls # of minutes used
Sep 15 20:40:52 <Decimation> sampson: and your phone doesnt suck?
Sep 15 20:41:01 <sampson> not as far as i can tell
Sep 15 20:41:03 <sampson> define suck
Sep 15 20:41:14 <gkatsev> Mousey: in terminal you type "/sbin/start org.webosinternals.ipkgservice"
Sep 15 20:41:20 <Mousey> oh, and can ANYBODY PLEASE give me a lead on finding a generic jabber client? i see libpurple is probably in use, but i can't find an app which lets me specify my own jabber server =(
Sep 15 20:41:29 <Mousey> gkatsev: THANK YOU
Sep 15 20:41:30 * Mousey makes note
Sep 15 20:41:38 <Decimation> sampson: and gkatsev: go to ##786# and tell me want your HARDWARE REVISION is
Sep 15 20:41:39 <tobybot> Mousey: distinctly possible, I ought to try it next time
Sep 15 20:41:48 <Decimation> thrid item, under CONFIGURATION
Sep 15 20:42:02 <Mousey> tobybot: i actually like gkatsev's better. i can write a script now =)
Sep 15 20:42:32 <gkatsev> Decimation: no such thing...
Sep 15 20:42:32 <sampson> modemfirmwarerevision?
Sep 15 20:42:41 <tobybot> Mousey: good call, I didn't see that. An "app" to reset luna might be handy, actually...
Sep 15 20:42:45 <sampson> that's all i see
Sep 15 20:42:49 <Azalyn> warantydatecode ?
Sep 15 20:42:53 <Mousey> tobybot: luna manager
Sep 15 20:42:54 <Decimation> gkatsev: hmm, maybe it only shows up in 1.2
Sep 15 20:43:09 * Mousey would still like a nice jabber client =/
Sep 15 20:43:19 <FreeTim> well how much speed actually is gained by not restarting the whole phone. Not much?
Sep 15 20:43:23 <gkatsev> there is modemfirmwareversion...
Sep 15 20:43:30 <Azalyn> 08/11/2009 for me.
Sep 15 20:43:51 <gkatsev> FreeTim: a lot... could take several minute for phone to restart. several seconds to type the start command
Sep 15 20:44:26 <FreeTim> there is a 3-finger salute to reboot the phone... it's quick...
Sep 15 20:44:30 <Azalyn> wow, so this phone is just a month and a few days old.
Sep 15 20:44:34 <Azalyn> :O
Sep 15 20:44:37 <Mousey> gkatsev: and even less to type a one word shell script
Sep 15 20:44:40 <gkatsev> FreeTim: yes, but then it takes like 3 minutes to start up
Sep 15 20:44:56 <FreeTim> gkatsev: That's true.
Sep 15 20:45:04 <sampson> Azalyn: check and make sure yours doesn't have a refurbished date
Sep 15 20:45:05 <Azalyn> i wonder if anyone's written an app to get the MSL
Sep 15 20:45:12 <sampson> my warranty date code is 4/1/2005
Sep 15 20:45:21 <gkatsev> but yes, i do use the 3 finger salute to restart if i need
Sep 15 20:45:25 <Azalyn> sampson: the "reconddate" or something?
Sep 15 20:45:30 <sampson> yeah
Sep 15 20:45:31 <Azalyn> and "recondstatus" ?
Sep 15 20:45:35 <sampson> yep
Sep 15 20:45:37 <Azalyn> yeah, there's nothing
Sep 15 20:45:46 <Azalyn> it says no. and the date is blank
Sep 15 20:45:50 <Azalyn> like --/--/----
Sep 15 20:46:00 <gkatsev> yeah, it means your phone wasnt a refurb
Sep 15 20:46:07 <tobybot> any of you dudes using the terminal app at all? is it worth it, or still too alpha for the casual developer?
Sep 15 20:46:09 <gkatsev> s/refurb/reconditioned/
Sep 15 20:46:09 <infobot> gkatsev meant: yeah, it means your phone wasnt a reconditioned
Sep 15 20:46:24 <tmzt> tobybot: if you want a unix shell
Sep 15 20:46:46 <tobybot> tmzt: who doesn't like a nice unix shell :P
Sep 15 20:47:04 <Decimation> gkatsev: see, i have a hardware revision slot... http://screensnapr.com/u/9elkwk.png
Sep 15 20:47:21 <Azalyn> tobybot: casual developer? you're not going to be writing C in vi on your phone, are you? :)
Sep 15 20:47:51 <gkatsev> Decimation: yep, must be a 1.2 thing, also, my config says sprint 1.7, so...
Sep 15 20:47:56 <Mousey> tobybot: i use it to restart services
Sep 15 20:47:57 <Mousey> ^_^
Sep 15 20:48:05 <gkatsev> Azalyn: not vi, full fledged vim
Sep 15 20:48:22 <gkatsev> Azalyn: hopefully they dont try to do it in emacs. youll break your hands
Sep 15 20:50:58 <Azalyn> someone the other day was asking how to type \ on the pre.
Sep 15 20:51:01 <Azalyn> i didn't have one back then
Sep 15 20:51:07 <Azalyn> but i found out by accident yesterday
Sep 15 20:51:32 <Templarian> lol
Sep 15 20:52:04 <Azalyn> at first i thought the orange key was only for the numbers, since they were orange. and that the 'sym' key was for shifting the others. but rather, orange shifts everything.
Sep 15 20:52:17 <Azalyn> and sym with various keys gives you extra stuff. :O
Sep 15 20:52:17 <tobybot> Azalyn: haha, that is far from casual. i'd use it just for little things -- pinging a site, renaming files stored on the pre, etc
Sep 15 20:52:38 <gkatsev> sym in terminal is ctrl key
Sep 15 20:52:39 <Templarian> Azalyn: yep, symbol + "/"
Sep 15 20:52:43 <Azalyn> yeah but i wouldn't call "pinging a site" development
Sep 15 20:54:00 <tobybot> Azalyn: no not at all. i was unclear: no development in the terminal app, but i am a "casual" developer and if the app is crash-all-the-time alpha, i'm unlikely to provide useful feedback on the project
Sep 15 20:54:59 <Azalyn> tobybot: ah
Sep 15 20:55:21 <Azalyn> gkatsev: oh.. hm.. that's tricky.
Sep 15 20:55:47 <Azalyn> \ is needed in terminal sometimes, for escaping spaces and other special chars
Sep 15 20:59:49 <Azalyn> you know, i ordered an "invisible shield", but i think i might pass on installing it. i didn't know the pre came with a soft pouch at the time. i think i'd rather just keep it in there.
Sep 15 21:00:13 <tobybot> i'm still up in the air about any  of that kind of thing
Sep 15 21:00:27 <sampson> i have one of those on my centro
Sep 15 21:00:30 <Azalyn> it also does a good job of wiping fingerprints off the pre on it's own.
Sep 15 21:00:30 <sampson> they feel gummy as hell
Sep 15 21:00:40 <gkatsev> Azalyn: if you keep your phone on vibrate you will never feel it if its in there, the pre's vibrate is soooooooo weak
Sep 15 21:00:40 <tobybot> i don't like pouches etc, it's an extra step in getting it out of my pocket
Sep 15 21:00:57 <gkatsev> my old phone had a good vibrate function, it actually fell from my desk several times, lol
Sep 15 21:00:58 <Azalyn> gkatsev: i don't use vibrate often.
Sep 15 21:01:04 <tobybot> and the full-body invisible shield is weird
Sep 15 21:01:23 <gkatsev> i just got the pronged seidio holster and keep my pre in there
Sep 15 21:01:25 <Azalyn> and there is a preware app i think that lets you tweak the vibration
Sep 15 21:01:51 <gkatsev> there is?
Sep 15 21:02:04 * gkatsev checks
Sep 15 21:02:12 <Azalyn> or.. maybe not. i think maybe it was on the "ideas" page
Sep 15 21:02:39 <gkatsev> yeah, definitely theere
Sep 15 21:02:50 <gkatsev> there is also a vibrate ringer switch app
Sep 15 21:02:54 <gkatsev> but thats not useful
Sep 15 21:04:50 <Azalyn> i just tried calling it while it was on vibrate.
Sep 15 21:05:17 <Azalyn> was in my chest pocket. i did feel it.. but it was weak i guess. heh
Sep 15 21:05:28 <gkatsev> also, the vibrate lasts for like a second and thats it
Sep 15 21:05:40 <Azalyn> if i pressed it close to me though, i did feel it.
Sep 15 21:05:42 <gkatsev> at least when its attached to my hip i feel it when its on vibrate
Sep 15 21:06:54 <Azalyn> in any case this is probably a battery life issue.
Sep 15 21:07:00 <Azalyn> not a hardware one.
Sep 15 21:07:01 <tobybot> yeah
Sep 15 21:07:29 <gkatsev> screw battery life, ive got two!
Sep 15 21:07:39 <tobybot> haha
Sep 15 21:08:00 <gkatsev> i got seidio's 1350 mAh and still have palms 1150mAh as backup
Sep 15 21:08:35 <tobybot> can i ask what that seidio ran you
Sep 15 21:08:37 <Azalyn> if i need vibrate i'll just hold it in my hand or keep it somewhere where i'll feel it for sure.
Sep 15 21:09:08 <FreeTim> I've got the 19200 mAh solution. Comes with trail behind cart on wheels. Also, can start your truck!
Sep 15 21:09:33 <tobybot> lol, the battery backpack
Sep 15 21:09:39 <Azalyn> I would like to see a comparison between the 1350mah (seidio) and the 1400mah (amzer)
Sep 15 21:09:43 <Azalyn> to see which is best.
Sep 15 21:10:11 <Azalyn> or maybe even some new company will come out with a higher capacity one.
Sep 15 21:10:28 <Azalyn> (without adding thickness, like the seidio/amzer ones)
Sep 15 21:10:36 <tobybot> poor, gimpy battery technology
Sep 15 21:10:45 <gkatsev> tobybot: around 40 from precentral
Sep 15 21:10:48 <tobybot> when do i get my tiny nuclear battery
Sep 15 21:10:54 <tobybot> gkatsev: not bad!
Sep 15 21:10:57 <tmzt> RTG?
Sep 15 21:11:14 <gkatsev> tobybot: yep, especially since the palm battery is probably like 50 and has less juice
Sep 15 21:11:15 <Azalyn> perhaps palm themselves will. i mean given how much they're charging right now for accessories.. i'd think they're already working on many newer accessories for the pre. heh
Sep 15 21:11:25 <Azalyn> including a longer battery.
Sep 15 21:11:45 <Azalyn> they just wanted to lower costs on the model that launched.
Sep 15 21:11:57 <gkatsev> FreeTim: then the 3800mAh batteyr from azmer comes with its own selfpowered v8 engine car
Sep 15 21:12:11 <gkatsev> s/batteyr/battery
Sep 15 21:12:17 <gkatsev> meh!
Sep 15 21:13:27 <tobybot> I have yet to look into how catastrophic the update to 1.2 is going to be for me
Sep 15 21:13:43 <gkatsev> just disable all patches beforehand
Sep 15 21:13:44 * Templarian wonders what the hell energiser does for R&D.
Sep 15 21:14:15 <tobybot> i did some manual "patching", heh
Sep 15 21:15:12 <FreeTim> really really want a slightly larger battery, WITH the touchstone cover for charging it up.
Sep 15 21:15:23 <tobybot> nothing i can't find, i think. if all else fails, i can just burn it to the ground with webosdoctor and begin anew
Sep 15 21:16:11 <Azalyn> i wonder if someone will make a mouse applet. hehe use the camera to sense movement, and gesture area as L/R buttons, and center button between them. and up/down gesture as scrollwheel. :)
Sep 15 21:16:18 <Azalyn> totally useless, but fun in a geeky way.
Sep 15 21:17:43 <gkatsev> Azalyn: why not just use the touchscreen as a touchpad?
Sep 15 21:17:57 <gkatsev> someone should port synergy to it
Sep 15 21:18:12 <Azalyn> well, situations where you have no mouse are usually laptops. which have touchpads already.
Sep 15 21:18:48 <FreeTim> but, if it worked as a bluetooth mouse, you could control a powerPoint presentation with your Pre - COOL
Sep 15 21:19:09 <Azalyn> :)
Sep 15 21:19:19 <Decimation> lol
Sep 15 21:19:22 <Decimation> im on the phone with palm
Sep 15 21:19:31 <Decimation> and this lad doesnt knwo what a dead pixel is.
Sep 15 21:19:35 <Azalyn> ask them for cookies
Sep 15 21:19:44 <FreeTim> Come to think of it, we have a pc-remote homebrew, we can use for that
Sep 15 21:19:54 <Azalyn> tell him it's a pixel that is dead. and ask him for some cookies.
Sep 15 21:22:09 <Decimation> lol, they wanna take my phone for 5-7 days
Sep 15 21:22:11 <Decimation> and leave me phoneless
Sep 15 21:22:13 <Decimation> hell naw
Sep 15 21:24:30 <Templarian> Explain to him what a dead pixel is?
Sep 15 21:24:42 <Azalyn> you thought they would give you a new one?
Sep 15 21:24:43 <Templarian> Or ask to talk with someone a bit smarter.
Sep 15 21:27:36 <Azalyn> Decimation: http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/185290-possible-fix-dead-stuck-pixels.html
Sep 15 21:27:39 <Azalyn> did you try this?
Sep 15 21:27:50 <Azalyn> it might just be stuck
Sep 15 21:27:52 <Azalyn> not dead
Sep 15 21:29:23 <tobybot> he wants to exchange the whole phone
Sep 15 21:29:39 <tobybot> he was saying it's an early one and the build quality is iffy
Sep 15 21:29:42 <Azalyn> they won't do that though.
Sep 15 21:29:47 <tobybot> just sayin'
Sep 15 21:30:05 <Azalyn> yeah i know. that's why i asked before if he thought they'd actually give a new phone
Sep 15 21:30:38 <Decimation> Azalyn: well, i want a new phone
Sep 15 21:30:44 <Decimation> so this is my excuse :P
Sep 15 21:30:52 <Decimation> the build quality on mine is horrible.
Sep 15 21:30:52 <Azalyn> i looked into the policies they have before buying. here in canada with bell, you have to buy a 140 dollar extended warranty for them to actually replace it. even then, it's bell that offers this, not palm.
Sep 15 21:31:08 <Azalyn> but palm will never do that.
Sep 15 21:31:11 <Decimation> Azalyn: yeah, called the sprint store
Sep 15 21:31:19 <tobybot> that sucks
Sep 15 21:31:21 <Decimation> they said yeah, they'll order one and call me tomorrow when its in
Sep 15 21:31:23 <Azalyn> they will take your phone, and repair any issues, and run diagnostics to ensure it's fine.
Sep 15 21:31:48 <tobybot> to improve phone sturdiness: wrap in duct tape, leaving a hole for the screen
Sep 15 21:31:58 <Decimation> i said to the lady at palm
Sep 15 21:32:01 <Decimation> i have a dead pixel
Sep 15 21:32:02 <Decimation> she said
Sep 15 21:32:10 <Decimation> okay, lets restart your phone, all problems should be fixed.
Sep 15 21:32:38 <tobybot> hire cheap help, give them a flowchart, put them on the phones
Sep 15 21:32:51 <Decimation> its embarrasing
Sep 15 21:32:59 <Azalyn> even if the build quality is bad, a repair should fix any issues it has. build quality issues come from a factory not being perfectly tuned yet to manufacture the product. when a human repairs it and runs various diagnostics
Sep 15 21:33:02 <Azalyn> it should be fine
Sep 15 21:33:10 <tobybot> bottom-level support at any company will never help anyone but your grandmother resolve any problem ever
Sep 15 21:33:31 <Decimation> Azalyn: im getting a new one, i told the guy that mine was built earlier, and he owned one, and said he was a member at precentral
Sep 15 21:33:32 <Azalyn> in some cases better. since you have an experienced technician looking it over and making sure it's all in working order
Sep 15 21:33:43 <Decimation> and i said
Sep 15 21:33:56 <Decimation> well, you know the build quality has improved over time
Sep 15 21:34:21 <Azalyn> yeah
Sep 15 21:34:21 <Decimation> and he said, yeah, and all orders made give us phones manufactored august+
Sep 15 21:34:23 <Decimation> so im good.
Sep 15 22:07:20 <rwhitby> morning
Sep 15 22:13:14 * sportman waves
Sep 15 22:14:46 <rwhitby> so any outstanding problems from overnight?
Sep 15 22:15:21 <Jack87> yo
Sep 15 22:19:36 <sportman> nope my cock went down eventually...
Sep 15 22:19:46 <sportman> didnt reach the 4 hour mark, was gonna have to call a doctor
Sep 15 22:19:57 <sportman> thank goodness
Sep 15 22:21:34 <chrisa> How relevant
Sep 15 22:21:44 <sportman> he asked about overnight problems...
Sep 15 22:22:08 <rwhitby> sportman: not really appropriate for this channel, thanks.
Sep 15 22:22:15 <Azalyn> :|
Sep 15 22:22:43 <Azalyn> if at least it was funny... it could be forgiven.
Sep 15 22:22:43 <sportman> a little humor doesn't hurt anybody, no intent on offending.
Sep 15 22:22:51 <sportman> aww i tried to be funny :(
Sep 15 22:23:25 <chrisa> It just reminded me that I'm far too old for this channel
Sep 15 22:23:55 <sportman> no one is to old for dirty jokes...
Sep 15 22:23:55 <Azalyn> http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cmn05/failboat.jpg
Sep 15 22:23:56 <Azalyn> :D
Sep 15 22:24:06 <sportman> :D
Sep 15 22:24:17 <rwhitby> sportman: no, but some are too young for it.  we have minors in this channel.
Sep 15 22:24:48 <sportman> good point, i mis being a minor :( only 2 years ago
Sep 15 22:24:57 <sportman> lol
Sep 15 22:26:22 <gkatsev> haha, ditto
Sep 15 22:26:24 <gkatsev> almost 3 for me
Sep 15 22:26:54 <rwhitby> I believe our youngest regular here is 14, but there may be younger participants too.
Sep 15 22:30:47 <freakout> I'm six
Sep 15 22:30:48 <sportman> wow im getting dated
Sep 15 22:30:55 * ashi__colo is 40
Sep 15 22:31:05 <DraX> omg, asl guys!!
Sep 15 22:31:06 <DraX> :P
Sep 15 22:31:08 <sportman> i can actually say phones like this werent even plausible when i was 13
Sep 15 22:31:10 <ashi__colo> lol
Sep 15 22:31:12 <sportman> :(
Sep 15 22:31:25 <sportman> lol, i was abit stupid with the pre
Sep 15 22:31:27 <sportman> i dont wanna get rid of my vzw phone
Sep 15 22:31:32 <sportman> so i got 2 phones now
Sep 15 22:31:44 <Decimation> you can run the pre on verizon!
Sep 15 22:31:48 <sportman> my pre on sprint and my blackberry on vzw
Sep 15 22:31:51 <sportman> oh really?
Sep 15 22:31:58 <sportman> maybe ill cancel my contract and eat the cost of the phone
Sep 15 22:31:58 <Decimation> sportman: im the youngest regular btw ;)
Sep 15 22:31:59 <geist> get mor pre
Sep 15 22:32:08 <sportman> and put the phone on vzw
Sep 15 22:32:16 <sportman> how well does it work on vzw? data and phone calls both work?
Sep 15 22:32:24 <gkatsev> Decimation: how old are you? 4? :)
Sep 15 22:32:28 <Decimation> so ive been told
Sep 15 22:32:37 <Decimation> there is a precentral thread on it
Sep 15 22:32:39 <Azalyn> woah, the browser in 1.2 is going to get saving support according to this http://www.intomobile.com/2009/09/15/webos-1-2-arriving-september-24th-with-paid-apps.html
Sep 15 22:32:41 <Decimation> check it out
Sep 15 22:32:46 <sportman> can i have a link Decimation ?
Sep 15 22:32:46 <sportman> :D
Sep 15 22:33:11 <sportman> i wonder how much the phone costs if i cancel my contract and want to keep the phone
Sep 15 22:33:12 <Decimation> sportman: precentral.net
Sep 15 22:33:13 <Decimation> :P
Sep 15 22:33:31 <Decimation> Azalyn: what do you mean saving support
Sep 15 22:33:34 <Decimation> gkatsev: 14 :P
Sep 15 22:33:34 <Azalyn> sportman: 3000 dollars maybe? :P
Sep 15 22:33:45 <Azalyn> Decimation: the browser can't save files right now. like images.
Sep 15 22:33:51 <sportman> prob around 500
Sep 15 22:33:55 <sportman> im guessing?
Sep 15 22:33:55 <gkatsev> Azalyn: nope
Sep 15 22:34:01 <Decimation> i can Azalyn, then again, im running 1.2 :P
Sep 15 22:34:11 <gkatsev> canceling contract is 200 bucks
Sep 15 22:34:22 <Azalyn> that doesn't make much sense.
Sep 15 22:34:33 <sportman> gkatsev: i got the contract yesterday
Sep 15 22:34:39 <sportman> i dont have to cancel it and pay a fee
Sep 15 22:34:44 <gkatsev> sportman: then free, since you are within the 30 days
Sep 15 22:34:47 <sportman> yea
Sep 15 22:34:52 <Azalyn> you have to pay the full price of the phone if you cancel *and* the cancellation fee.
Sep 15 22:34:54 <sportman> but im wondering how much if i wanted to keep the phone
Sep 15 22:34:56 <sportman> yea
Sep 15 22:35:00 <gkatsev> i remember i barely knew how work a compter when i was 14...
Sep 15 22:35:11 <sportman> i wonder how much the full price is?
Sep 15 22:35:15 <Azalyn> 600 dollars
Sep 15 22:35:17 <Azalyn> :|
Sep 15 22:35:19 <gkatsev> sportman: depends where you get it
Sep 15 22:35:19 <sportman> ouch
Sep 15 22:35:21 <gkatsev> amazon is 500
Sep 15 22:35:23 <Azalyn> give or take.
Sep 15 22:35:27 <Decimation> gkatsev: i just know vb and some c++
Sep 15 22:35:30 <sportman> its almost worth it to freggin stay on and have 2 cell phoens
Sep 15 22:35:35 <sportman> maybe ill just do that
Sep 15 22:35:36 <Decimation> nothing amazing, hope to learn more though :)
Sep 15 22:35:57 <Azalyn> over here bell's receipt for purchase says they get a 200 dollar "discount" from palm, and then bell gives you a 200 dollar discount as a result of the 3-year contract.
Sep 15 22:36:03 <gkatsev> Decimation: read htdp.org or SICP, itll also help you with js
Sep 15 22:36:22 <Decimation> rwhitby: gonna return my pre for a new one, this time ill doctor it :)
Sep 15 22:36:27 <tmzt> htdp?
Sep 15 22:36:37 <gkatsev> how to design programs
Sep 15 22:38:23 <tmzt> ah, interesting
Sep 15 22:38:24 <Azalyn> i wanted to download the linkedin app, but apparently 1.2 is adding linkedin support directly
Sep 15 22:38:30 <tmzt> design patterns?
Sep 15 22:39:57 * rwhitby gives a thumbs up to the Gang of Four book on design patterns.
Sep 15 22:40:39 <gkatsev> anyway, heading home
Sep 15 22:40:43 * gkatsev -> home
Sep 15 22:41:38 <Azalyn> man, i thought the unlocking channel would have more people. :|
Sep 15 22:42:14 <Azalyn> was curious if there was an msl viewing app yet.
Sep 15 22:44:17 <sportman> so, is there a way to run linux apps and debian
Sep 15 22:44:18 <sportman> on the pre
Sep 15 22:44:22 <sportman> without killing lunar?
Sep 15 22:44:52 <rwhitby> linux app that don't need the screen, yes.  see optware.
Sep 15 22:46:09 <sportman> well like im setting up debian to chroot
Sep 15 22:46:13 <Azalyn> i wonder if it'd be possible to run an X11 implementation inside a plugin or something. then you'd have gtk or qt support.
Sep 15 22:46:34 <rwhitby> ones that do need the screen, take a look at the dfbadapter than ameng is working on
Sep 15 22:46:54 <sportman> well like here
Sep 15 22:46:55 <sportman> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Nintendo
Sep 15 22:47:07 <sportman> they want you to kill LunaSysMgr
Sep 15 22:47:14 <sportman> so that will kill my gui :/
Sep 15 22:47:15 <rwhitby> yep
Sep 15 22:47:27 <sportman> which will kill phone functionality
Sep 15 22:47:30 <sportman> :(
Sep 15 22:47:39 <rwhitby> there is no current way.  dfbadapter is the work in progress to enable it.
Sep 15 22:47:44 <tmzt> no, at least it shouldn't
Sep 15 22:47:52 <tmzt> well
Sep 15 22:48:03 <tmzt> anyone have combined ps f and lsof for me?
Sep 15 22:48:09 <Azalyn> wow. that is pretty cool though
Sep 15 22:48:18 <Azalyn> the directfb adapter
Sep 15 22:48:25 <sportman> my other wonder is, how would i go about accessing everything with the gui closed, does that mean id have to do everything through a computer to run the apps?
Sep 15 22:48:39 <sportman> so in order to launch the nes emulator id have to do it from my computer
Sep 15 22:48:59 <Azalyn> there's a terminal app
Sep 15 22:49:13 <Azalyn> oh wait.. with luna closed
Sep 15 22:49:38 <rwhitby> sportman: yes.
Sep 15 22:49:51 <sportman> yea thats what clicked in my head Azalyn :D
Sep 15 22:49:55 <sportman> alright cool rwhitby
Sep 15 22:50:26 <Azalyn> hm. figured it might just kill it and launch. and that then you'd have to reboot the phone or something
Sep 15 22:50:31 <rwhitby> so has anyone alpha tested Preware 0.8.6 at http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/testing/all/ ?
Sep 15 22:50:45 <rwhitby> we need some alpha success reports before going public.
Sep 15 22:51:08 <sportman> i can test later tonight
Sep 15 22:51:11 <sportman> once i finish this nes thing
Sep 15 22:51:12 <sportman> :D
Sep 15 22:51:58 <mrinehart93> Hey guys I'm having trouble SSHing into my Palm Pre... I'm on 64-bit Windows 7 Ultimate. Anything I try doesn't work... so is there anyone here that has a situation similar to mine?
Sep 15 22:53:20 <Rick_work> lots of people have
Sep 15 22:53:30 <Rick_work> did you follow the detailed instructions on the wiki for window 7
Sep 15 22:53:31 <Rick_work> ???
Sep 15 23:12:04 <Robi_> has anyone figured out a faster way to make a new cal entry other than thru the cal app?
Sep 15 23:12:19 <Robi_> and besides the google cal sync
Sep 15 23:12:50 <Robi_> on palmOS this was so quick, in webOS it's 4-5 times slower
Sep 15 23:30:59 <sampson> what's new in terminal RainMan
Sep 15 23:31:02 <sampson> er rwhitby
Sep 15 23:31:15 <rwhitby> sampson: yep?
Sep 15 23:31:21 <sampson> what's new in the terminal testing
Sep 15 23:31:34 <rwhitby> nothing that I know of
Sep 15 23:31:48 <sampson> i got reinstall all the optware packages because my profile path got screwed up and /opt/bin wasn't in it anymore
Sep 15 23:36:30 <rwhitby> how did the path get screwed up?
Sep 15 23:37:27 <sampson> no clue i was installing a bunch of crap last night and when i removed openssh before you had updated it i think it broke the path
Sep 15 23:37:30 <sampson> that or terminal
Sep 15 23:38:14 <rwhitby> the path should be done in /etc/profile.d/org.webosinternals.optware and no other package other than the Optware Bootstrap package touches that file.
Sep 15 23:38:40 <rwhitby> if you remove the Optware Bootstrap package, then it's intentional that it removes that file.
Sep 15 23:38:47 <sportman> so i heard there is a palm classic emulator?
Sep 15 23:38:48 <sportman> :-p
Sep 15 23:39:26 <rwhitby> sportman: that was announced weeks before the Pre was released.
Sep 15 23:39:28 <sampson> for $30
Sep 15 23:39:43 <sportman> rwhitby: i havent been following pre stuff
Sep 15 23:39:47 <sportman> i kinda baught it on a whim yesterday
Sep 15 23:39:49 <sampson> unless you're a sperglord about your calendar or have an undying desire to play kyle's quest 2 there's not much worth to it
Sep 15 23:40:19 <sampson> yay reinstalling everything fixed the path
Sep 15 23:40:27 <tmzt> if dfb stuff works somebody could try POSE, not quite the integration but maybe an option?
Sep 15 23:41:20 <sampson> terminal appears to be working fine from testing
Sep 15 23:42:28 <Azalyn> hm, for the mojo sdk, do i have to install virtualbox-proprietary or can i use virtualbox-ose ?
Sep 15 23:42:42 <sportman> ose i beileve
Sep 15 23:43:43 <rwhitby> Azalyn: I believe either will work.
Sep 15 23:45:05 <sportman> im using the oen they linked me to on their web site
Sep 15 23:45:09 <sportman> which was a free download
Sep 15 23:45:11 <sportman> so im assuming ose
Sep 15 23:46:00 <Azalyn> "Note: If virtualbox-ose is installed (or suggested) instead of virtualbox-2.2, this is a sign that apt-get did not properly parse the packages from download.virtualbox.org and is instead trying to pull an old VirtualBox 1.5 binary from Ubuntu's own repositories. Make sure to register the repository key before doing the update."
Sep 15 23:46:05 <Azalyn> I was curious because of that.
Sep 15 23:46:14 <Azalyn> It seems old since they're talking about vbox 2.2
Sep 15 23:46:20 <Azalyn> even though they're up to 3.x now
Sep 15 23:46:29 <Azalyn> But I just wanted to be sure.
Sep 15 23:57:41 <Decimation_> my
Sep 15 23:57:43 <Decimation_> internet
Sep 15 23:57:45 <Decimation_> SUCKS
Sep 16 00:05:04 <rwhitby> Thanks to destinal, PuffTheMagic and greg_roll, Palm has confirmed that the luna headers included in the libpurpleadapter are licensed under the LGPL v2.1 - we have now committed these to the repository at http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=libraries/luna-headers.git;a=tree
Sep 16 00:09:09 <Templarian> Noice.
Sep 16 00:09:19 <PuffTheMagic> except they arent actually incluced anywhere :D
Sep 16 00:11:52 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: what aren't included anywhere?
Sep 16 00:12:23 <PuffTheMagic> the headers arent actually included with libpurple-adapter or avail anywhere on palm site
Sep 16 00:12:35 <PuffTheMagic> only on my site and webosinternals
Sep 16 00:12:42 <rwhitby> line 38 of LibpurpleAdapter.c says "#include <lunaservice.h>"
Sep 16 00:13:28 <Templarian> hehe, it's like finding waldo.
Sep 16 00:13:30 <rwhitby> ok, to be clear, by "included in" I meant "#include'd by the source code files in"
Sep 16 00:14:12 <rwhitby> if they were available anywhere else we wouldn't need to create our own repo for them.
Sep 16 00:14:56 <rwhitby> (although now we know they are LGPL v2.1, anyone can put them anywhere they like)
Sep 16 00:15:02 <PuffTheMagic> the presense of a repo does not intrinscically imply they are not available other places
Sep 16 00:15:09 <PuffTheMagic> maybe your headers are a fork of the real headers
Sep 16 00:15:11 <PuffTheMagic> who knows
Sep 16 00:15:41 <rwhitby> who said that the presence of a repo implies they are not available in other places?
Sep 16 00:15:51 <rwhitby> a -> b does not mean b -> a in logic
Sep 16 00:15:53 <PuffTheMagic> <rwhitby> if they were available anywhere else we wouldn't need to create our own repo for them.
Sep 16 00:16:03 <rwhitby> right.  a -> b does not mean b -> a in logic
Sep 16 00:16:16 <PuffTheMagic> that could be a = b
Sep 16 00:16:28 <PuffTheMagic> the presense of our repo = not in palms repo
Sep 16 00:16:49 <rwhitby> you must parse english differently to me then.
Sep 16 00:17:20 <PuffTheMagic> you said if they werent available anyhere... which implys that the only reason you host them your self is cause they are not other places
Sep 16 00:17:29 <PuffTheMagic> but there are other reasons why you might host your own version
Sep 16 00:17:47 <rwhitby> indeed, a -> b does not preclude c -> b in logic
Sep 16 00:18:19 <rwhitby> a and c do not need to have any logical relationship
Sep 16 00:18:43 <PuffTheMagic> most "people" suck at logic and dont follow those rules
Sep 16 00:18:55 <PuffTheMagic> so you can pretend we are all logic machines
Sep 16 00:19:42 <rwhitby> well, it just depends whether people intentionally read more into a statement than what the statement actually says
Sep 16 00:20:04 <rwhitby> doing so is a recipe for misunderstandings
Sep 16 00:21:31 <PuffTheMagic> how should I have interpreded "if they were available anywhere else we wouldn't need to create our own repo for them"
Sep 16 00:21:37 <PuffTheMagic> what exactly did you imply there?
Sep 16 00:21:48 <PuffTheMagic> and if you impled nothing what was the purpose of saying it?
Sep 16 00:22:00 <rwhitby> I implied exactly what it says.
Sep 16 00:22:27 <PuffTheMagic> i've had them on my site since i had them
Sep 16 00:22:31 <PuffTheMagic> and i had them public
Sep 16 00:22:48 <rwhitby> if the official Palm files were hosted elsewhere, we wouldn't need to have our own repo.  We may choose to have our own repo for any number of other reasons, but that would no longer be the reason.
Sep 16 00:23:17 <rwhitby> I hope you have not had the official Palm headers in a public repo before we got the license clarification from Palm about how they were licensed.
Sep 16 00:24:19 <PuffTheMagic> yeah i posed them the day i got them and said they would stay there till they responded to my e-mail about their license
Sep 16 00:24:31 <PuffTheMagic> and i posed that link in here to everyone
Sep 16 00:24:38 <PuffTheMagic> err
Sep 16 00:24:40 <PuffTheMagic> the other channel
Sep 16 00:24:42 <PuffTheMagic> actually
Sep 16 00:24:49 <PuffTheMagic> forgot where i was for second
Sep 16 00:25:33 <rwhitby> ok, that's your perogative to post headers with unknown license status.
Sep 16 00:26:14 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: rick said they inhereted libpurples-adapters license and were lgpl since they had no copyright and no nda
Sep 16 00:26:21 <PuffTheMagic> and i went with that
Sep 16 00:27:14 <PuffTheMagic> and i requested them as part of libpurple-adapter
Sep 16 00:27:14 * Templarian thinks hehe listing to rick :(
Sep 16 00:27:28 <rwhitby> and it turns out that assumption was correct now that Palm have clarified the actual license conditions of those files.  In a previous email received by Greg Roll Palm stated they were proprietary.
Sep 16 00:28:04 <PuffTheMagic> yeah and in destianls he was under specific NDA, seems they give different people different stories
Sep 16 00:28:15 <Templarian> New rule no posting palm stuff unless we know the licence mumbo jump first. :)
Sep 16 00:28:19 <PuffTheMagic> they didnt give me info besides... "here is what you asked for"
Sep 16 00:28:52 <PuffTheMagic> and i asked for the headers which must be LGPL
Sep 16 00:29:10 <rwhitby> using something in a GPL program does not automatically make the thing used fall under the GPL.  It only give the copyright holder of the GPL thing the right to sue the person including proprietary stuff in it.  It can never change the copyright status of the proprietary stuff without the consent of the author of the proprietary stuff.
Sep 16 00:29:14 <Templarian> (I have a small feeling that other things will become public as this goes on).
Sep 16 00:30:02 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: yeah but palm was in the wong first, they had not write making something proprietary that needed to be LGPL
Sep 16 00:30:32 <PuffTheMagic> you cant make a wrapper for something that is LGPL and require it for linking and not LGPL the wrapper
Sep 16 00:30:35 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: doesn't matter whether they were wrong or right.  You can't change the copyright of a file unless you are the author or the assigned copyright owner.
Sep 16 00:30:59 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: they had no copyright on the file... i didnt change anything
Sep 16 00:31:06 <PuffTheMagic> i dont even know palm sent it ot me
Sep 16 00:31:20 <PuffTheMagic> anyone can send me an e-mail from openseouce@palm.org
Sep 16 00:31:34 <rwhitby> you assumed it was LGPL.  if it had no copyright statement it is by default proprietary.
Sep 16 00:31:41 <rwhitby> doesn't matter who sent it.
Sep 16 00:32:28 <rwhitby> (at least in countries that are signatories to the Berne convention, that is the case)
Sep 16 00:32:49 <Robi_> has anyone figured out a faster way to make a new cal entry other than thru the cal app?
Sep 16 00:32:58 <Robi_> and besides the google cal sync..
Sep 16 00:33:04 <Robi_> on palmOS this was so quick, in webOS it's 4-5 times slower
Sep 16 00:33:24 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: wouldnt there have to be some proof that palm wrote what i recieved in my e-mail?
Sep 16 00:33:46 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: no, unless the file has an LGPL copyright attached to it, it is proprietary.
Sep 16 00:33:56 <PuffTheMagic> proprietary of who?
Sep 16 00:34:03 <rwhitby> of the author.
Sep 16 00:34:11 <PuffTheMagic> and how do i know who that is
Sep 16 00:34:17 <PuffTheMagic> if its not on the file?
Sep 16 00:34:18 <rwhitby> right, so you can't use it by default.
Sep 16 00:34:56 <rwhitby> the onus is on you to prove that it is not proprietary, not the other way around.  that's the berne convention which the US and Australia have signed.
Sep 16 00:35:14 <rwhitby> (and most, but not all, other countries)
Sep 16 00:35:52 <rwhitby> http://www.copyrightaid.co.uk/copyright_information/berne_convention_signatories
Sep 16 00:36:45 <rwhitby> (I'm assuming you're a citizen of one of those countries)
Sep 16 00:38:38 <Templarian> (this is why every CS student has to take a law class now)
Sep 16 00:38:43 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: i think the Berne convention only applies to works that were actually published
Sep 16 00:39:06 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: please read it then, cause that is not the interpretation that most people hold.
Sep 16 00:39:31 <PuffTheMagic> if its not published then anyone can say they werethe first
Sep 16 00:40:03 <Templarian> PuffTheMagic: not if it is in active software in the market.
Sep 16 00:40:11 <PuffTheMagic> and in the US they need a copyright notice for a lawsuit to hold any ground
Sep 16 00:40:30 <PuffTheMagic> and it must be registered
Sep 16 00:40:50 <Templarian> PuffTheMagic: I doubt their lawyers overlook that simple stuff. hehe.
Sep 16 00:41:00 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: that is not the case.
Sep 16 00:41:41 <PuffTheMagic> try a lawsuit for copyright infrindgment in the US with out a registered copyright and a notice
Sep 16 00:41:51 * Templarian only took business law not computer science law, they are two different in case studies.
Sep 16 00:41:53 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: http://www.copyrightaid.co.uk/copyright_information/worldwide_copyright
Sep 16 00:42:22 <PuffTheMagic> worldwide != US law
Sep 16 00:42:36 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: US is a signatory to the Berne convention.
Sep 16 00:42:55 <Templarian> PuffTheMagic: rwhitby is actually right on this one.
Sep 16 00:43:15 <sportman> dam roaming
Sep 16 00:43:19 <sportman> i want evdo speeds
Sep 16 00:43:27 <JackieRipper> http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork
Sep 16 00:43:32 <sportman> 16.7kb/s to download 78mb of files is not ideal
Sep 16 00:43:41 <PuffTheMagic> they might actually "own the copyright" but with out posting the copyright or registering it they cant sue me
Sep 16 00:43:48 <JackieRipper> Do I have to register with your office to be protected?  No. In general, registration is voluntary.
Sep 16 00:43:52 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: from the US copyright office website - good citation.
Sep 16 00:44:12 <PuffTheMagic> JackieRipper: right... now look what actually is needed to win a lawsuit
Sep 16 00:44:39 <JackieRipper> the FSA seems to be doing ok
Sep 16 00:44:45 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: the law is the law.  whether or not the particular judge in a particular court upholds the law or not is another matter.
Sep 16 00:45:01 <PuffTheMagic> US law is not UK law
Sep 16 00:45:14 <PuffTheMagic> and in the US to win a lawsuit you need to be registered
Sep 16 00:45:26 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: did you read the page that JackieRipper posted - it's from the *US* copyright office
Sep 16 00:45:40 <JackieRipper> PuffTheMagic: are you in the UK?
Sep 16 00:45:50 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: seriously, read the page before saying anything else.
Sep 16 00:45:57 <rwhitby> http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork
Sep 16 00:46:05 <JackieRipper> http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law
Sep 16 00:46:33 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: is www.copyright.gov a US website or not?
Sep 16 00:46:43 <JackieRipper> It's US
Sep 16 00:46:56 <Templarian> JackieRipper: (it was rehtorical)
Sep 16 00:47:11 <PuffTheMagic> No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section
Sep 16 00:47:16 <rwhitby> of course, someone could be doing a MITM attack on all of us, just to make us create a big conspiracy
Sep 16 00:48:11 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: so you only respect copyright when you can be sure of winning a lawsuit in the US?
Sep 16 00:51:35 <rwhitby> (I agree with you that based on the information on that page, copyright is valid at the moment of creation, but can only be used in a US lawsuit if registered)
Sep 16 00:51:59 <Decimation_> rwhitby: so are you getting that pre with the touchstone?
Sep 16 00:52:01 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: this is about me not caring about an ELUA when it needed to be LGPL, and in my eyes they are breaking the law first
Sep 16 00:52:14 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: two wrongs do not make a right.
Sep 16 00:52:28 <rwhitby> Decimation_: haven't heard from bpadalino yet
Sep 16 00:52:45 <oil> but 3 lefts do
Sep 16 00:52:58 <rwhitby> oil: nice one.  BTW, are we ready to push 0.8.6 ?
Sep 16 00:53:07 <oil> as 087
Sep 16 00:53:13 <rwhitby> or 0.9.1 ?
Sep 16 00:53:14 <PuffTheMagic> rwhitby: maybe not, but if palm is gonna abuse GPL software creators then why should i care about their LGPL
Sep 16 00:53:16 <oil> has anyone had troubles with 086?
Sep 16 00:53:34 <JackieRipper> I agree with Puff on this one... if the library is a derivative of another LGPL work, then it is LGPL, and anything in the EULA contradicting that is null and should be ignored.
Sep 16 00:54:10 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: that's not correct.  it's proprietary by default, and only the author or copyright owner can change that.
Sep 16 00:54:53 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: if it is a derivative, Palm does not hold the coptright
Sep 16 00:54:58 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: the copyright holder of the LGPL stuff can sue, and withdraw the right to use the GPL stuff, and also go for damages, but nothing can force the proprietary-by-default part to become LGPL.
Sep 16 00:55:04 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: that is not true.
Sep 16 00:55:35 <JackieRipper> Unless Palm got an exception from the copyright holder, yes, it is
Sep 16 00:55:44 <PuffTheMagic> JackieRipper: that was destinals argument
Sep 16 00:55:48 <PuffTheMagic> for the past month to them
Sep 16 00:55:53 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: Palm is the copyright holder of the luna files
Sep 16 00:55:54 <PuffTheMagic> and im backing that up
Sep 16 00:56:08 <JackieRipper> libpurple is not part of luna
Sep 16 00:56:14 <JackieRipper> it is part of pidgin
Sep 16 00:56:14 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: the fact that they modified an LGPL file to include them does not change the copyright of the luna headers.
Sep 16 00:56:31 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: it only affects whether Palm has the right to use the LGPL files or not.
Sep 16 00:56:51 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: we are talking about two files called lunaservice.h and lunaservice-errors.h
Sep 16 00:56:51 <JackieRipper> wait, are we talking about their use of libpurple?
Sep 16 00:56:55 <JackieRipper> ok, nm
Sep 16 00:57:22 <PuffTheMagic> palm is basically using pidgin code in their project and saying its not LGPL
Sep 16 00:57:22 <rwhitby> those two files were authored by Palm, and are *not* derivatives of any LGPL file
Sep 16 00:57:40 <rwhitby> they are #include'd in an LGPL file, and the resulting binary is distributed by Palm.
Sep 16 00:57:55 <JackieRipper> as I said, "if the library is a derivative of another LGPL work," meaning, if Palm modified libpurple, those modifications *are* automatically LGPL.  I'm sorry, I thought that was the library we were discussing.
Sep 16 00:58:07 <rwhitby> Therefore Palm only has the right to distribute the binary if they also distribute those two files as LGPL (or a compatible open source license)
Sep 16 00:58:52 <rwhitby> Even if Palm does not have the right to distribute the binaries, *nothing* can change the copyright of the two files that Palm wrote.  All that can happen is that Palm is sued by the copyright holders of the libpurple LGPL code.
Sep 16 00:59:18 <rwhitby> Palm can then choose to relicense the two files as LGPL (which they have now done) or face a lawsuit and damages.
Sep 16 00:59:33 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: as the licence grants "any third party" access to the source, I'm, pretty sure anyone can sue.
Sep 16 01:00:01 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: no, only the copyright holder, or someone acting on their behalf, can sue.  ask gpl-violations.org for advice on that.
Sep 16 01:00:14 <rwhitby> I've been through that personally with them before.
Sep 16 01:01:23 <rwhitby> In any case, the LGPL has worked as it was intended in this case, and Palm has chosen to release their two files under the LGPL v2.1 license.
Sep 16 01:01:44 <rwhitby> Without the need to resort to lawsuits.
Sep 16 01:01:58 <PuffTheMagic> JackieRipper: yeah that is why FSF can sue on behalf of others
Sep 16 01:01:59 <rwhitby> Thanks to the work of destinal, PuffTheMagic and greg_roll.
Sep 16 01:02:18 <rwhitby> PuffTheMagic: only for things where you have assigned your copyright to the FSF.
Sep 16 01:02:27 <rwhitby> that's why they make you assign copyright on GNU code
Sep 16 01:02:34 <rwhitby> (FSF GNU code that is)
Sep 16 01:02:48 <rwhitby> I've been through that personally with the FSF too.
Sep 16 01:03:28 <rwhitby> (and have had to get an employer to assign copyright to the FSF for something that I wrote on my own time)
Sep 16 01:05:59 <rwhitby> http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Copyright-Papers.html
Sep 16 01:09:47 <rwhitby> oil: so I'm happy to release as 0.9.1 if you are?
Sep 16 01:10:22 <oil> so it has to jump to 091 cause thats where ipkgservice is?
Sep 16 01:12:36 <rwhitby> oil: doesn't have to, it might just make it easier for us to say "make sure you're using 0.9.1 or later"
Sep 16 01:14:36 <rwhitby> oil: your call, but let's release something so service upgrades work again :-)
Sep 16 01:18:44 <JackieRipper> Linking and the GPL is always such a pain
Sep 16 01:19:41 <rwhitby> yep, software authors always need to balance the cost of reimplementation from scratch against the cost of GPL compliance to get the right to use the pre-existing code.
Sep 16 01:21:04 <corq> has there been any mention of a standard rss reader in development? i realize there are the hard coded news reader for various site, but hoping for one we can add/remove own feeds as the whimsy appeals to ya.
Sep 16 01:21:18 <JackieRipper> Plus there's always the debate as to when a gpl file becomes a "source"
Sep 16 01:21:29 <gkatsev> corq: google reader?
Sep 16 01:21:33 <rwhitby> wasn't an RSS reader the example for the webos book
Sep 16 01:22:10 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: yeah, the time taken thinking about, discussing, and getting legal opinions on usage of GPL code is significant for a business.
Sep 16 01:23:27 <corq> yreh i've messed with both of those tho i tried to tweak the example app i couldn't get it to 'save' and keep feeds.
Sep 16 01:24:17 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: I was thinking more about device drivers.  That's where there's quite a bit of debate as to whether they need to be GPL or not.
Sep 16 01:24:39 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: yeah, there's significant opinion on both sides of that fence.
Sep 16 01:24:53 <rwhitby> and no cases tested in court that I know of.
Sep 16 01:25:15 <rwhitby> (I'd be happy to get any references to such if there are)
Sep 16 01:25:40 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: the fact that Linux falls on the, "It's fine," side hurts the, "It must be GPL," position.
Sep 16 01:25:51 <JackieRipper> er Linus, not, Linux
Sep 16 01:26:13 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: one could say that sentence the other way around too ;-)
Sep 16 01:26:22 <JackieRipper> nah
Sep 16 01:26:46 <JackieRipper> the wording is clear.  He's wrong.  But the kernel is copyright him.
Sep 16 01:27:13 <rwhitby> no it's not.  many people hold copyright in the Linux kernel (including myself)
Sep 16 01:27:30 <rwhitby> any one of them could sue if their copyright is being violated.
Sep 16 01:27:46 <rwhitby> whether they would win or not is another matter.
Sep 16 01:28:16 <rwhitby> but you are right that his opinion holds a lot of weight.
Sep 16 01:28:54 <can_> whats the difference between the 'preware application manager', and 'WebOS Quick install'... as far as installing homebrew apps?
Sep 16 01:29:20 <gkatsev> can_: preware is on device wqi isnt?
Sep 16 01:29:32 <rwhitby> that's the main difference.
Sep 16 01:29:50 <rwhitby> can_: at the moment, only Preware can install optware packages that utilise update-alternatives properly, but I've had discussions with Jason on how wosqi can support that too.
Sep 16 01:29:58 <can_> okay. but they both install the same homebrew apps?
Sep 16 01:30:08 <rwhitby> other than those one or two packages, they can install all the rest identically.
Sep 16 01:30:43 <can_> ahh
Sep 16 01:30:45 <gkatsev> actually, wqi has a few patches improvements as well
Sep 16 01:30:47 <rwhitby> hmm - I guess Jason hasn't added the optware or preyourmind feeds to wosqi yet, so only Preware can install from them.
Sep 16 01:31:14 <rwhitby> yeah, wosqi includes a number of the patches from our modifications repo as built-in "tweaks"
Sep 16 01:31:27 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: Linux and others, or, "Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the Linux kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
Sep 16 01:31:46 <JackieRipper> Linus and others... damn, I can't type his name, today
Sep 16 01:32:25 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: right, but some of the pieces of code I have in the kernel are not derivatives of Linus's works, so he holds no copyright in them, just myself.
Sep 16 01:32:56 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: pieces of the kernel are not derivatives of the kernel?
Sep 16 01:32:59 <can_> does preware pull from precentral apps as well as the wiki apps?
Sep 16 01:33:01 <rwhitby> I have not assigned copyright on those to anyone else (as opposed to vhdl-mode.el in Emacs, in which I formally assigned the copyright to the FSF)
Sep 16 01:33:31 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: the kernel binary is a derivative of all the source files, but one source file is not necessariy a derivative of another.
Sep 16 01:33:50 <rwhitby> can_: yes
Sep 16 01:34:57 <rwhitby> can_: and also PreYourMind, Optware, WebOS Internals, and Canuck Software feeds.
Sep 16 01:35:10 <can_> cool!
Sep 16 01:35:22 <rwhitby> can_: and JewishContent.org feed if you install the IPKG from PreYourMind which configures it.
Sep 16 01:36:41 <rwhitby> we would have added PreThemer.com too, except they have a package in their feed which redistributes proprietary Palm copyright images.
Sep 16 01:37:00 <rwhitby> (we need to work out a better uninstall process for themes before we can add that feed)
Sep 16 01:38:01 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: I would think moving aside the originals to known locations, and then restoring them upon uninstall
Sep 16 01:38:11 <rwhitby> WebOSGroup.com should have a feed in Preware soon too.
Sep 16 01:38:14 <JackieRipper> as a post-script
Sep 16 01:38:17 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: agreed.
Sep 16 01:39:33 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: I've suggested that to AnOutsider (who creates the ipkgs on his site, not via our preware.org autobuilder) but I don't know what he has done with that information yet.
Sep 16 01:40:30 <bclancy> all I can say is that you guys really rock!  (I've never learned all the intracies of software licencing amd copytight.  This discussion you are having has been interesting and educational for me.
Sep 16 01:41:22 <rwhitby> bclancy: just don't make significant business decisions based on discussions in IRC channels ;-)
Sep 16 01:41:36 <JackieRipper> "Check with legal."
Sep 16 01:42:17 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: or make your own determination, and be personally responsible for it :-)
Sep 16 01:42:28 <bclancy> sure:  I guess when I work mostly as a tester, I don't have to worry about such things (until maybe layers start taining me to look for them)  :)
Sep 16 01:42:53 <bclancy> training
Sep 16 01:43:08 <rwhitby> There are some areas where you don't want to ask Legal, cause they can't give you a positive answer :-)
Sep 16 01:43:59 <JackieRipper> When the pre first came out, I heard some debate as to whether they would release the source to their drivers.  If they hadn't, I was going to request them, and if they refused, report them to FSA... not that that would have done much,
Sep 16 01:46:01 * can_ is doing the following http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Next_steps
Sep 16 01:46:07 <can_> hopefully its not outdated ;)
Sep 16 01:46:23 <JackieRipper> can_: somewhat, but it'll work for you
Sep 16 01:46:24 <sportman> so i know that based on the way webos is
Sep 16 01:46:30 <sportman> 3d gaming is supposed to be a no go
Sep 16 01:46:40 <can_> jackieripper: crap..dont say that!
Sep 16 01:46:41 <sportman> but with linux in the background, couldnt non supported 3d games eventually be ported?
Sep 16 01:46:42 <JackieRipper> can_: it's in the process of being obsoleted, but not quite
Sep 16 01:46:51 <can_> :/
Sep 16 01:47:19 <can_> 1. wifi 2. evdo 3.both wifi and evdo
Sep 16 01:47:20 <can_> hmm
Sep 16 01:47:23 <JackieRipper> can_: it'll always work, and frankly, it's what I would use.  But eventually, you'll be able to do all that through preware
Sep 16 01:47:38 <can_> ahh, okay
Sep 16 01:47:58 <JackieRipper> making the method obsolete
Sep 16 01:48:15 <can_> that question doesnt tell me if its talking about connecting TO the pre or FROM the pre
Sep 16 01:48:26 <JackieRipper> but I wrote the script (and others modified) and I'm quite proud of it, so I'll always encourage its use ;)
Sep 16 01:48:51 <can_> i guess i will just choose #3
Sep 16 01:48:54 <JackieRipper> can_: to the pre... it's setting up the ssh deamon, and asking in which interface(s) it will listen
Sep 16 01:49:01 <can_> ahh
Sep 16 01:49:21 <can_> because i want to ssh out FROM the pre through both.
Sep 16 01:49:36 <JackieRipper> can_: that question does not address that
Sep 16 01:50:02 <JackieRipper> can_: The routing table is set that you will be able to
Sep 16 01:50:50 <can_> okay got ya
Sep 16 01:51:44 <can_> hmm looks like the pre has bsl0 and eth0
Sep 16 01:51:53 <can_> bsl0 is evdo?
Sep 16 01:54:36 <can_> hmm not sure if I should install quilt
Sep 16 01:55:14 <JackieRipper> can_: it won't hurt, and ther are a bunch of mods in the modifications repo
Sep 16 01:55:40 <can_> no idea what you mean ;)
Sep 16 01:55:50 <JackieRipper> have you browsed the wiki?
Sep 16 01:56:00 <can_> yeah but apparently not this part
Sep 16 01:56:21 <JackieRipper> seens some of the patches avaiilable?  Such as bookmarking in the music player, or message forwarding?
Sep 16 01:56:25 <can_> oh well, install it now, for use later.
Sep 16 01:56:33 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: we need to get you to write the postinst for the optware bootstrap package, so you can be equally as proud of that ;-)
Sep 16 01:56:50 <JackieRipper> those patches can be applied and backed out using quilt
Sep 16 01:56:58 <can_> jackie: cool. sounds worth installing then. thanks
Sep 16 01:57:17 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: I was looking at that... as I would say at work, I need the requirements.
Sep 16 01:57:40 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: yeah, the requirements are always the hard part :-)
Sep 16 01:57:53 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: when I wrote the first script, I had a pretty good idea what to do, as the steps were layed out on the wiki.  I merely scripted them and added error cheking
Sep 16 01:58:10 <JackieRipper> and incorporated suggestions as they came
Sep 16 01:58:38 <rwhitby> I think the broad requirements are that we need to be able to handle any of the multiple ways that people may already have /opt mounted, and not mess with those, but if they have not mounted /opt through any other means then we bind mount /var/opt
Sep 16 01:59:01 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: having preformed the first on-pre installation, I can say it want smooth... though I have no idea where anything is anymore :)
Sep 16 01:59:15 <rwhitby> then the iptables stuff gets moved to specific dropbear and openssh packages (and any other packages that will include servers)
Sep 16 01:59:42 <JackieRipper> right, so we're really looking for a pre- not post- install script?
Sep 16 01:59:48 <rwhitby> yep
Sep 16 01:59:52 <JackieRipper> set up /opt ?
Sep 16 01:59:54 <JackieRipper> ok
Sep 16 01:59:57 <rwhitby> prerm and postinstall
Sep 16 02:00:18 <JackieRipper> prerm... isn't that run on uninstall?
Sep 16 02:00:26 <rwhitby> oh, the bootstrap package is a dependency of all other optware packages, so it will be installed first and should set up the /opt mount
Sep 16 02:01:03 <rwhitby> so the postinstall script for the bootstrap package is a script that is done once before any other optware packages are installed.
Sep 16 02:01:17 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: and do nothing if /opt already exists?
Sep 16 02:01:28 <rwhitby> and the upstart control file for the bootstrap package can be made to be a dependency of all other optware upstart control files
Sep 16 02:01:41 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: if it already exists and is mounted from somewhere.
Sep 16 02:01:52 <JackieRipper> right
Sep 16 02:02:17 <rwhitby> we don't want to break it for people who have done a loopback mount and put it in /etc/fstab manually
Sep 16 02:02:59 <JackieRipper> so... df / | grep -v Filesystem | awk '{print $1}'
Sep 16 02:03:09 <JackieRipper> df /opt | grep -v Filesystem | awk '{print $1}'
Sep 16 02:03:18 <JackieRipper> if those match, create /opt
Sep 16 02:04:26 <JackieRipper> df / | awk '{if ($1 != "Filesystem") {print $1}}'
Sep 16 02:04:32 <JackieRipper> df /opt | awk '{if ($1 != "Filesystem") {print $1}}'
Sep 16 02:05:07 <can_> so whats currently the best way to ssh into pre.. as far as using checkmyip.com or avahi or is there a better way?
Sep 16 02:05:30 <JackieRipper> can_: if you have wifi, use it... it will be much faster
Sep 16 02:05:44 <can_> yeah, still gotta know the IP though
Sep 16 02:05:56 <JackieRipper> the wifi settings will tell you
Sep 16 02:06:02 <can_> doh. true
Sep 16 02:06:24 <JackieRipper> I assigned a static IP for my home network
Sep 16 02:06:25 <can_> or check the leases file on my linux server which hands out the dhcp lease ;)
Sep 16 02:06:56 <JackieRipper> just set "Automatic IP settings" to off and manually set the IP
Sep 16 02:07:08 <can_> you assigned a static IP to the phones mac address on your dhcp server?
Sep 16 02:07:09 <can_> oh
Sep 16 02:07:30 <JackieRipper> it's a per-network setting, so it won't mess up things when you're away from home
Sep 16 02:08:45 <JackieRipper> my router hands out dhcp addresses starting at 100 in the 4th octet
Sep 16 02:08:54 <JackieRipper> so I can use 2-99 for static
Sep 16 02:09:13 <JackieRipper> and not worry about conflicts with dhcp
Sep 16 02:09:28 <JackieRipper> your mileage may vary
Sep 16 02:09:43 <can_> does this still work: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Patch_Launcher_Unhide_the_DeveloperMode_App
Sep 16 02:09:59 <JackieRipper> yes
Sep 16 02:10:08 <can_> i am asking too many question, sorry ;)
Sep 16 02:10:14 <JackieRipper> not at all
Sep 16 02:10:27 <JackieRipper> the channel is slow, and imho, this is what it's for
Sep 16 02:10:56 * JackieRipper wonders if his girlfriend will notice if he has a cigarette in the house
Sep 16 02:11:17 <can_> i would.
Sep 16 02:11:40 <can_> very noticable to non-smokers
Sep 16 02:12:16 <JackieRipper> she's on the other side of the place, my door is closed, I'm sitting next to a window with a dual fan in it, blowing out on high, and a scented candle burning
Sep 16 02:12:38 <can_> man i dont even know how to reset the pre
Sep 16 02:13:03 <Decimation> device info - reset options - w.e you want there
Sep 16 02:13:04 <can_> other than 'reboot' if i ssh into it
Sep 16 02:13:08 <JackieRipper> initctl stop LunaSysMgr ; initctl start LunaSysMgr
Sep 16 02:13:15 <Decimation> oh
Sep 16 02:13:18 <Decimation> pkill LunaSysMgr
Sep 16 02:13:19 <Decimation> works fine
Sep 16 02:13:29 <can_> why not just 'reboot'
Sep 16 02:13:48 <JackieRipper> reboot is 3x - 4x longer that restarting LunaSysMgr
Sep 16 02:13:55 <can_> ahhh
Sep 16 02:14:03 <atlanta> JackieRipper: indeed
Sep 16 02:14:05 <atlanta> wsup everyone
Sep 16 02:14:59 <can_> so once i can ssh in.. i should never need to turn developer mode back on?
Sep 16 02:15:26 <JackieRipper> can_: I've never used it after installing sshd
Sep 16 02:15:33 <can_> ok
Sep 16 02:15:35 <JackieRipper> brb
Sep 16 02:15:40 <JackieRipper> gonna smoke outside
Sep 16 02:16:06 <can_> good idea lol ;)
Sep 16 02:18:48 <JackieRipper> can_: are you familiar with aliases in the shell?
Sep 16 02:19:21 <can_> yaeah
Sep 16 02:19:45 <atlanta> Anyone know how to put an id on a commandMenu item
Sep 16 02:19:45 <atlanta> ?
Sep 16 02:20:02 <atlanta> i cant seem to get popupSubmenu to focus on it
Sep 16 02:20:55 <JackieRipper> can_: may I suggest: rw="mount -o remount,rw /"   ro="mount -o remount,ro /"   restart="initctl stop LunaSysMgr ; initctl start LunaSysMgr"   rescan="luna-send -n 1 palm://com.palm.applicationManager/rescan {}"
Sep 16 02:21:36 <JackieRipper> I find them incredibly useful
Sep 16 02:21:52 <can_> yeah they look useful
Sep 16 02:22:16 <can_> so you use ro as a safeguard if your root or what?
Sep 16 02:22:48 <can_> cal@ubuntu:~$ ssh cal@192.168.1.155 222
Sep 16 02:22:48 <can_> ssh: connect to host 192.168.1.155 port 22: No route to host
Sep 16 02:22:50 <can_> crap.
Sep 16 02:22:52 <JackieRipper> by default, the root file system is mounted read-only. To make changes, you have to remount it read-write
Sep 16 02:23:01 <can_> ahh, ok.
Sep 16 02:23:23 <JackieRipper> and remount it read-only again when you're done
Sep 16 02:23:34 <can_> yup yup
Sep 16 02:23:41 <can_> thanks for the aliases
Sep 16 02:23:42 <JackieRipper> can_: ssh -p 222 cal@192.168.1.155
Sep 16 02:24:19 <Rick_home> atlanta:   can you run inspector and find the ID?
Sep 16 02:24:20 <can_> same thing
Sep 16 02:24:50 <JackieRipper> no - the port after a space doen't work with ssh, and notice the error - "port 22: No route to host"
Sep 16 02:24:51 <sportman> wooo
Sep 16 02:25:01 <atlanta> Rick_home: inspector stop working on me
Sep 16 02:25:02 <sportman> still compiling
Sep 16 02:25:05 <atlanta> ill give it a whip again
Sep 16 02:25:09 <sportman> the wiki never mentioned if sound worked or whatnot lol
Sep 16 02:25:13 <can_> cal@ubuntu:~$ ssh -p 222 cal@192.168.1.155
Sep 16 02:25:13 <can_> ssh: connect to host 192.168.1.155 port 222: No route to host
Sep 16 02:25:21 <JackieRipper> hmmm
Sep 16 02:25:32 <can_> i guess i need to plug the cable back in and check to see sshd is running
Sep 16 02:25:40 <JackieRipper> can_: good idea
Sep 16 02:26:21 <can_> oh. wifi was turned off
Sep 16 02:26:23 <can_> works now ;)
Sep 16 02:26:27 <JackieRipper> nice!
Sep 16 02:27:09 <can_> hmm 'ps ax | grep sshd' didnt return anything
Sep 16 02:27:16 <sportman> so i wanna somehow capture sprints wireless tower and rebroad cast it to my room
Sep 16 02:27:17 <sportman> lol
Sep 16 02:27:50 <sportman> cause i got 3 bar evdo right outside but 4 bar roaming inside at 1x, and when i turn off roaming i have no service at all sprint wise
Sep 16 02:28:08 <can_> err. so when my phone display turns off, i lose the ssh connection
Sep 16 02:28:22 <JackieRipper> can_: grep for dropbear
Sep 16 02:28:36 <JackieRipper> and yes, the wifi dies when the screen goes to sleep
Sep 16 02:28:58 <can_> hmm, thats annoying ;)
Sep 16 02:29:05 <JackieRipper> you hae 2 options: stream something (like pandora) or leave it plugged in
Sep 16 02:29:20 <can_> i am sure a wifi keepalive app will come soon
Sep 16 02:29:27 <JackieRipper> there is one
Sep 16 02:29:32 <JackieRipper> nodoze
Sep 16 02:31:10 <JackieRipper> http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/nodoze
Sep 16 02:31:31 <atlanta> does it utilize activity start
Sep 16 02:31:31 <atlanta> ?
Sep 16 02:32:04 <JackieRipper> atlanta: is that to me?  If so, I have no idea... I just read about it.
Sep 16 02:32:28 <atlanta> yea
Sep 16 02:32:29 <atlanta> oh ok
Sep 16 02:32:31 <atlanta>  gotcha
Sep 16 02:32:35 <atlanta> ill check it out in a min then
Sep 16 02:32:55 <kesne> http://keen-studios.net/live
Sep 16 02:33:16 <JackieRipper> I rarely encounter the wifi sleep problem since I got a puck
Sep 16 02:36:40 <can_> puck... lol.. nice name for it
Sep 16 02:37:01 <JackieRipper> it looks like a baby hockey puck
Sep 16 02:37:16 <kesne> EVERYONE: KEEN STUDIOS LIVE: http://keen-studios.net/live
Sep 16 02:37:48 <rwhitby> Anyone here know how to run doxygen?
Sep 16 02:39:58 <PreHero> i know this isnt the right place, but i can only hear jordan on the keen-studios.net
Sep 16 02:40:17 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: just to be clear... I'm writing 4 scritpts, correct?  A pre and post install and a pre and post uninstall, right?
Sep 16 02:40:37 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: nope, we only support prerm and postinstall.
Sep 16 02:41:01 <JackieRipper> So the /opt creation will take place after the installation of optware?
Sep 16 02:41:16 <rwhitby> since preinstall and postrm scripts are hard to do because either the script you want to run is not installed yet by ipkg, or has already been deleted by ipkg.
Sep 16 02:41:19 <JackieRipper> or is the whole thing really a postinstall script?
Sep 16 02:42:04 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: take a look at the existing postinstall and prerm scripts and upstart job file in the current optware bootstrap ipkg.
Sep 16 02:42:11 <JackieRipper> ok
Sep 16 02:42:42 <JackieRipper> you'll have to shoot me the path/url again... I used the doctor a few days ago
Sep 16 02:43:29 <JackieRipper> man, kesne, that page makes me feel old
Sep 16 02:46:49 <kesne> Haha
Sep 16 02:47:25 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: if you install the Optware Bootstrap package, the files are in /var/usr/lib/ipkg/info/org.webosinternals.optware.{prerm,postinst} and /etc/event.d/org.webosinternals.optware
Sep 16 02:47:33 <JackieRipper> right-o
Sep 16 02:48:00 <JackieRipper> I may be older than the sum of any two of those guys :(
Sep 16 02:50:03 <can_> i thought optware only installed to /opt?
Sep 16 02:50:30 <rwhitby> kesne: are you going up against PreCentral in the live videocasting arena? ;-)
Sep 16 02:50:50 <rwhitby> can_: 99% of files, yes.
Sep 16 02:51:03 <can_> ahh
Sep 16 02:51:33 <rwhitby> we add upstart files in /etc/event.d/ with unique reverse dns prefixes to avoid collision and a profile file in /etc/profile.d/ also with the unique reverse dns.
Sep 16 02:55:23 <JackieRipper> rwhitby: the /opt mounting takes place in the upstart script... is that something we're keeping?  If so, should I just add the checks to that?
Sep 16 02:55:32 <rwhitby> JackieRipper: yes
Sep 16 02:55:53 <rwhitby> Since then it is impervious to Palm updating /etc/fstab
Sep 16 02:56:08 <JackieRipper> right
Sep 16 02:56:49 <JackieRipper> you'll be happy to know that almost everything I've tried installing using preware works in 1.2
Sep 16 02:57:01 <JackieRipper> and that preware works flawlessly in 1.2
Sep 16 02:57:09 <Decimate> yeah, rwhitby: i've been running preware on 1.2 for a bit now
Sep 16 02:57:17 <Decimate> everything is fine as far as that goes.
Sep 16 02:58:01 <can_> can i get 1.2?
Sep 16 02:58:23 <JackieRipper> flashlight, onscreen kb and internalz are the only things that don't work for me
Sep 16 02:58:53 <|Jason8|Raph|> Switch to Sprint and get a Pre for $49.99?
Sep 16 02:58:55 <|Jason8|Raph|> sweet.
Sep 16 02:59:30 <kesne> Http://keen-studios/live
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Sep 16 02:59:57 2009