**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 11 02:59:57 2010 Jan 11 03:00:06 rwhitby: oh, maybe it's just tweetdeck then Jan 11 03:00:12 it just came back as fbgnuboy instead of sdlgnuboy Jan 11 03:00:17 dtzWill: ah, so you are just like "make me a square, silly" instead of actually making it? :p Jan 11 03:00:31 dtzWill: that's a problem, since i doubt heavily it's ES compatible Jan 11 03:00:40 zsoc: kinda. and no glu is not ES compat Jan 11 03:00:49 zsoc: that's why someone was working on glues (see googlecode proj) Jan 11 03:00:49 I know the methods we used to make this work are pretty sloppy, but we didnt really know too much lol Jan 11 03:00:55 dtzWill: that's bad :/ PrBoom is really nice otherwise. Jan 11 03:01:17 dtzWill: if it's _just_ the primitive to draw the textures on... i may just make a triangle strip myself Jan 11 03:01:20 I used the same ./configure and make commands from the Doom tutorial Jan 11 03:01:24 I tried wget http://bit.ly/preware-bootstrap/ and all it got was index.html Jan 11 03:02:01 sryan: drop the end / Jan 11 03:02:25 Garrett92C: yeah, I checked out your ipk, looks like the palm-game-fix script I hacked together worked for you (I'm glad someone is using it) Jan 11 03:02:36 Garrett92C: Tag1234 just contacted me by email, and we're all hooked up Jan 11 03:03:08 so wait, how many people do we having working on gnuboy/visualboy now? lol Jan 11 03:03:19 it should be done by tonight ;) Jan 11 03:03:31 zsoc: Garrett92C and Tag1234 are working on sdlgnuboy, and are now linked up with us here. Jan 11 03:03:42 zsoc: gnuboy works now I think, don't know if there's a launcher for rom selection Jan 11 03:03:46 we still have alot of work to do to improve the emulator though.. Jan 11 03:03:50 dtzWill is working on visualboyadvance Jan 11 03:04:14 Haha, I was just going to start work on VBA... Jan 11 03:04:18 zsoc: are you porting PrBoom to use gl? Jan 11 03:04:31 I come in here, and it appears to be nearly complete? Jan 11 03:04:44 zsoc: does it already? if NOT then i really think you'll want the work i'm doing right now with VBA and adding a linux gl renderer Jan 11 03:04:57 Well anyway, question: This is probably asked 37 times a day, but where does someone get into alternative webOS consumption and development from step zero? Jan 11 03:05:27 dtzWill: uh, doesn't the DOOM classic port that uses prboom have GL ES support? Jan 11 03:05:27 dtzWill: PrBoom (newer versions) are GL compatible, but they use GLU to make the primitive. I don't think I need a "linux gl renderer" so much as just to code the primitive and the shader by hand, everything else is there (i think) Jan 11 03:05:29 Brian_: the version in git should work just fine from the command line Jan 11 03:05:41 dtzWill: but please tell me what the thing was you're working on does? Jan 11 03:05:41 dtzWill: it's for the iphone Jan 11 03:05:43 destinal: i have absolutely no idea Jan 11 03:06:05 id ported prboom to the iphone and I imagine it uses GL-ES Jan 11 03:06:11 destinal: oh quite possibly. Jan 11 03:06:34 destinal: maybe i missed a flag, i'll check again Jan 11 03:06:53 zsoc: did you get the DOOM classic stuff from the iphone port? Jan 11 03:06:55 zsoc: essentially that. but i was going to try to make it a library, so we aren't doing the same things :) Jan 11 03:07:07 destinal: no, what's running now is the straight SDL port, no GL Jan 11 03:07:08 zsoc: what use will PrBoom have for GL? just the blitting? Jan 11 03:07:24 dtzWill: I can imagine just the blitting? Since there's nothing 3d about doom Jan 11 03:07:45 dtzWill: that's a pretty big deal tho since we can't use hwsurface/doublebuf Jan 11 03:07:52 zsoc: yeah then what i'm doing should be useful Jan 11 03:08:21 zsoc: although i was hoping at some point to use the shaders to go some nicer sampling/pixel scaling Jan 11 03:08:34 zsoc: which you probably wouldn't want for doom, just render at the res hehe Jan 11 03:09:09 dtzWill: you're in essence making a GLES primitive wrapper for SDL linux apps/emus? Didn't you just learn GL 5 days ago? :p Jan 11 03:09:13 zsoc: i'm using gl|es 2.0 for this so in theory the shaders are as flexible as we want Jan 11 03:09:38 zsoc: well i'm ambitious :). for now though it's not a library it's just part of vba. but once it's working, yeah that was the idea Jan 11 03:09:50 we got a mention at http://www.cellflarenews.com/palm®/palm-reveals-open-web-distribution-of-webos-apps-beta-feed/ Jan 11 03:10:11 zsoc: so not much thought has gone into the library, but for exampel it should support updating subregions of the screen--useful in quake1, for example Jan 11 03:10:14 dtzWill: it's funny, i was honestly thinking about doing something similar. the shader tho had me... i was just going to use a very "basic" gles2.0 shader, like the classic demo example :P Jan 11 03:10:21 awesome Jan 11 03:10:28 zsoc: it is very very basic right now Jan 11 03:10:41 zsoc: but the idea is extendability--it should be more complicated as we advance it Jan 11 03:10:51 would save work Jan 11 03:11:00 zsoc: if you think that's a good idea, i'd love to make this library happening Jan 11 03:11:10 Does anyone know what libs/language flash games use for logic/physics? Jan 11 03:11:20 zsoc: although there's something stupid going on right now after i switched pixel formats, so i'm ironing that out now Jan 11 03:11:23 dtzWill: i just can't help but think it has to exist somewhere lol, but you'd do it better ;) Jan 11 03:11:57 zsoc: oh it probably does, but for gl|es 2.0? doubtful Jan 11 03:12:16 zsoc: i appreciate you flattery :P but doubtful --as you said i just learned :):) Jan 11 03:12:20 zsoc flash games are javascript under the skin Jan 11 03:12:34 zsoc: i DO doubt that a gl|es 2.0 renderer exists for this type of things Jan 11 03:12:38 Rick-home: thank you, good to know Jan 11 03:12:53 dtzWill: define what you mean by "renderer"? Jan 11 03:12:56 zsoc: although if these is i'd love to see it Jan 11 03:12:58 zsoc: nothing, sorry Jan 11 03:13:05 zsoc: haha. extra words :P Jan 11 03:13:23 zsoc -- if you google "flash physics engine" you get the tol several on the first page. (without the quotes) Jan 11 03:13:24 Also, prboom seems to have GL stuff in there for lighting too.. interesting Jan 11 03:13:39 dtzWill: didn't mean to call you out.. i do it all the time, just trying to make sure i understood what you were saying :) Jan 11 03:13:43 zsoc: it takes a buffer as input and pushes it into a texture (supporting partial updates a-la SDL_UpdateRect) and renders that Jan 11 03:14:01 zsoc: oh no worries, if i'm not being clear then ask Jan 11 03:14:01 dtzWill: that makes perfect sense Jan 11 03:14:24 zsoc: i don't have the GL background but i chose 2.0 so that in theory the shader can do more than bilinear Jan 11 03:14:56 zsoc: oh that's right--gl|es 1.0 doesn't support antialiasing as far as i can tell Jan 11 03:15:23 holy crap lighting arrays are huge Jan 11 03:16:01 zsoc: and while the algorithms used in emu's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_art_scaling_algorithms) would be fantastic Jan 11 03:16:37 zsoc: they're cpu intensive which is terrible on the pre, so hopefully my assumption that we can approximate them with shaders isn't misled Jan 11 03:16:38 Does know the legality of releasing DOOM/Quake/et al for free on the App Catalog (once the PDK is released en masse)? Jan 11 03:16:43 Does anyone* Jan 11 03:16:49 zsoc: "worst" case we get multisampling Jan 11 03:17:17 brian -- perfectly legal under id's license. Jan 11 03:17:42 and releasing several "shareware" wads, and the first 3 levels are gpl, and at that point the plugin should have a "wad changer." Jan 11 03:17:56 Brian_: for free? yeah should be legal. that's why it's okay to put it in preware Jan 11 03:18:11 dtzWill: Woo! it uses glBegin() BUT it's already a triangle_strip :) Jan 11 03:18:14 Ah, yes, that makes sense Jan 11 03:18:23 Brian_, Rick_work: aren't the quake levels gpl'd? Jan 11 03:18:33 i've brought it up before but i do'nt know that we came toa conclusion Jan 11 03:18:37 shipping all of quake would be awesome Jan 11 03:18:42 although i don't pay the hosting bills :):) Jan 11 03:18:43 creepy, my pre just restarted itself Jan 11 03:18:51 while it was sitting there on the touchstone Jan 11 03:18:52 I'd like to do some emulator releases in the near future, once my current crop of apps are published. Jan 11 03:19:24 will donate for SNES :p Jan 11 03:19:30 Brian_: excellent. what are you working on? :) Jan 11 03:19:46 On October 11, 2006, John Romero released the original map files for all of the levels in Quake under the GPL. [8] Jan 11 03:19:51 although from what destinal said, it will not be easy (snes9x works, but no sound due to OSS only. ZSNES seems to be mainly asm, and thus hard to port) Jan 11 03:20:03 I'm going to be interested in the first one of our native apps someone steals and sends it to the app catalog ;) Jan 11 03:20:06 I was going to work on VBA (my own motivation, I would love to finish Mother 3), but that seems to be handled Jan 11 03:20:17 SNES9x... someone is working on that also?! Jan 11 03:20:23 Hm Jan 11 03:20:34 destinal played with it I believe Jan 11 03:20:36 The other id Software maps, objects, textures, sounds and other creative works remain under their original license. Jan 11 03:20:43 Rick_work: yeah wiki says that. if you follow the reference the BSP's are releasd, so i'm not sure if the pak's are Jan 11 03:20:46 it wouldn't hurt to try your hand at it :p Jan 11 03:20:51 Maybe a Genesis emulator, then, not sure which would be acheivable, have not researched it Jan 11 03:20:52 Rick_work: ahhh figured as much. Jan 11 03:21:03 Brian_: psx? :D Jan 11 03:21:15 there was a working genesis emulator for palmos Jan 11 03:21:19 CoolMatty: I'm trying to figure out porting DrNokSnes right now (the maemo version of DrPocketSNES) but I need to revert the X11 stuff they added to make a maemo GUI Jan 11 03:21:21 it actually worked in classic too, but it lagged Jan 11 03:21:27 Rick_work: okay, thanks for that clarification. seemed too good to be true :). well and not in their best interests--contributing the engine is sweet and useful, but the pak's for free just makes people lose money Jan 11 03:21:35 destinal: nice :p Jan 11 03:21:40 Rick_work: when they released the BSP's under gpl anyway Jan 11 03:21:56 destinal: if you or someone gets it working, I'll kick you (or webos internals if you prefer) some money for it Jan 11 03:22:03 zsoc: Not sure if my skill can get there, but hey, depending on currently-existing software Jan 11 03:22:05 Brian_: if you don't find your own project, i'm sure we wouldn't mind the help Jan 11 03:22:33 CoolMatty, min has rebooted on the charger for no reason today too, never did that before. but I have a lot of apps and preware & some services on top of the recent 1.3.5.1 so no telling what caused it. Jan 11 03:22:37 dtzWill: there's a project based on making free PAK's from the open source BSP's but some media is needed such as textures Jan 11 03:22:46 that they are redoing from scratch Jan 11 03:22:53 Brian_: VBA for example is going to need a rom chooser, some thought/work gone into controls and whatnot. as well as trying to optimize for ARM Jan 11 03:23:03 dtzWill: Will def keep that in mind, but I admit I suck at collab projects outside the office -- schedule is too up and down Jan 11 03:23:07 Brian_: basically all the porting work other than the video :) Jan 11 03:23:12 Also I noticed //usr/bin/mediaserver consuming all cpu when the devivce should have been idle Jan 11 03:23:16 ameng: do you know anything about this feed? http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre-tips-information-resources/223173-help-cannot-install-preware.html#post2143401 Jan 11 03:23:24 dtzWill: Sounds very interesting! Jan 11 03:23:26 destinal: gotcha. thanks Jan 11 03:23:52 dtzWill: well i think so. just trying to help you find something awesome to do :D Jan 11 03:24:00 dammit i just talked to myself Jan 11 03:24:04 Brian_: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jan 11 03:24:36 Brian_: FYI: Palm are not accepting type:game until the official PDK is released. Jan 11 03:25:04 dtzWill -- of course, there are a bazillion third-party maps like those at http://quakeone.com/files/2-maps/ Jan 11 03:25:11 zsoc, dtzWill I am working on GLUES Jan 11 03:25:32 dtzWill: I'm currently working on two new webOS native (as in, JavaScript) apps, and producing updates for a third, so I cannot commit to anything at the moment I'm afraid Jan 11 03:25:35 Tag234: welcome Jan 11 03:25:45 jacques: that's right. how's that going? Jan 11 03:25:47 hi :) Jan 11 03:25:58 Tag234: hey :) Jan 11 03:26:04 Tag234: hello Jan 11 03:26:11 I wonder what the limit for emulation is for the pre, assuming good optimization Jan 11 03:26:27 hi everyone Jan 11 03:26:40 dtzWill, it's all logistical at this point. missing support in cross-compile for svn checkouts, I have to manuallt create Makefiles, as there are none included in GLUES, etc. Jan 11 03:26:43 jacques: excellent, we have a great team here apparently :) Jan 11 03:27:09 I wonder if the pre could pull off n64 emulation. we've already seen good PSX performance... Jan 11 03:27:11 dtzWill, right now I'm working on the SVN support in cross-compile Jan 11 03:27:11 i Jan 11 03:27:12 CoolMatty: if Nokia 900 is any judge (same SoC/core), N64 emulation should be possible Jan 11 03:27:16 m still working on idling Jan 11 03:27:18 rwhitby: idk Jan 11 03:27:26 destinal: true Jan 11 03:27:37 zsoc, I plan to have libGLUES_CM in cross-compile.git tonight Jan 11 03:27:54 jacques: argh, that's unfortunate. props for tackling that! :) Jan 11 03:28:17 you realize guys that cross-compile is going to be BETTERR than the real pdk when it's released..... Jan 11 03:28:26 does anyone know zodttd, etc? it's unfortunate we can't convince him to at least relase the sources behind whatever that demo was Jan 11 03:28:38 jacques: wow, so it can handle the same API's that libglu supports? Jan 11 03:28:45 and that all we'll have to do is include the plugin parts and we'll have the BEST binary app environment for the pre.... Jan 11 03:28:45 dtzWill, I really really wanted to get it in as soon as I got the demo app working last night, but there were lots of little build-system things to do first Jan 11 03:28:54 Rick_work, well they'll probably be some headers we need Jan 11 03:28:58 he has the psx4all code, and i started porting it.... but he has a history of doing some sweet arm optimizations for iphone that i don't think i could hope to match Jan 11 03:29:00 dtzWill: who is zod? what demo? Jan 11 03:29:11 egaudet yeah, but we'll probably have MORE tstuff than they do. Jan 11 03:29:25 yup yup Jan 11 03:29:28 can't you use the same arm optimizations that are used on the 3gs for the pre? Jan 11 03:29:30 sorry. zodttd is a dev who does all kinds of iphone work. http://zodttd.com although his website kinda sucks. Jan 11 03:29:31 zsoc, this page tells what it supports: http://code.google.com/p/glues/ Jan 11 03:29:48 zsoc: he was behind the only psx on pre demo that we've seen Jan 11 03:29:50 GLUES_CM "GLU 1.3 partitial port (libutil and libtess components only) for OpenGL ES 1.x (CM - Common profile) and above" Jan 11 03:29:51 ah Jan 11 03:30:00 dtzWill: where is that demo? Jan 11 03:30:04 zsoc: i'm just saying if we had the source given our work/success here we could make a lot happen Jan 11 03:30:07 zsoc: youtube Jan 11 03:30:18 zsoc: other kinda 'demo' i meant sorry Jan 11 03:31:42 hmmm Jan 11 03:32:48 what is GLUES anyway Jan 11 03:33:03 CoolMatty: GLU for GLES Jan 11 03:33:10 what did google say it was Jan 11 03:33:14 ? Jan 11 03:33:19 er, GLES1x _compatible_ GLU, more accurately Jan 11 03:34:02 So, as a quick poll, how many of those here interested in using bluetooth devices (keyboards, mice, controllers, etc) would be willing to turn off all the stock palm bluetooth support while using it? Jan 11 03:34:16 memememe! Jan 11 03:34:23 me Jan 11 03:34:28 destinal: me Jan 11 03:34:39 ok, so it sounds like it's not an unreasonable sacrifice Jan 11 03:35:51 destinal: i would Jan 11 03:35:58 destinal: for sure, i don't use bluetooth at all :) Jan 11 03:36:04 destinal: as long as you don't do a mytether wifi patch, sure. Jan 11 03:36:05 there is reasonable to start and reasonable to call finished. I don't know where this falls but it's _at least_ reasonable to start. Jan 11 03:36:08 destinal: i was gonna use it for tethering, but that's slow as crap Jan 11 03:36:20 some people have done some awesome work with the "btstack" lightweight bluetooth stack, mainly on the iphone. I'm trying to figure out how to port it but I'm totally new to bluetooth in general Jan 11 03:36:42 I do use the existing bt all the time, but not at the same time I'll need a bt keyboard. Jan 11 03:37:03 one thing I do know is that two stacks can't access the same bluetooth controller chip at the same time Jan 11 03:37:50 I play audiobooks in the car via bt car stereo. Thats practically a must for me anymore though I _can_ go back to the bad old days of the patch cord. Jan 11 03:38:11 but while driving, I don't need a bt keyboard ;) Jan 11 03:38:11 bluetooth isn't that bad for tethering. it can get up to 100KB/s+ Jan 11 03:38:13 destinal: yeah, I'll be using bluetooth for podcasts ... Jan 11 03:38:18 KEYofR: I would intend to set up a quick toggle between stacks Jan 11 03:38:23 I mean, we're using 3G here, so it's not like it's got a fast source lol Jan 11 03:38:45 damn japanese and their ridiculous phone networks lol Jan 11 03:38:59 CoolMatty: what does this have to do with the Japanese? Jan 11 03:39:30 nothing I was just pointing out that the japanese had faster data :p Jan 11 03:39:33 so you could use either one at any time and switch quickly but never both at once, and if you're playing a game with a bluetooth controller it might be a bit awkward to have to flip stacks to take a call on your bt headset Jan 11 03:39:40 I'm severely digressing, ignore me Jan 11 03:39:40 CoolMatty: Oh, that's true :) Jan 11 03:40:17 destinal: is there a reason you can't mimic that with your stack? isn't the code released for the current one? Jan 11 03:40:29 Garrett92C: Tag234 is going to upload the source to the repo later today, then we can all work on it from there. Jan 11 03:40:29 well destinal, right now, my bluetooth has only turned on once since I've had my phone, and that was just to make sure it worked Jan 11 03:40:37 zsoc: mimic? Jan 11 03:40:44 so I wouldn't mind myself :p Jan 11 03:40:46 destinal: the legit headset behavior Jan 11 03:40:54 zsoc: palm's bluetooth stack is closed source / proprietary Jan 11 03:41:00 destinal: ouch :/ oh ok then Jan 11 03:41:06 rwhitby: ok, sounds good to me Jan 11 03:41:23 Garrett92C: he's used git before Jan 11 03:41:38 why can't we use bluez ? Jan 11 03:41:41 would you also add in proper bluetooth browsing, like file system access (i forget the name they call it in bluetooth) Jan 11 03:42:03 jacques: that's possible too, but porting all of the palm service calls to controlling bluez is a rather large effort Jan 11 03:42:55 and bluez has the downside of being fairly large and complex (at least from my perspective) Jan 11 03:43:16 well it's almost certainly a lot mor ethan we need Jan 11 03:43:19 frankly I'd get more use out of it if it just had filesystem access Jan 11 03:43:43 maybe we can get hostmode usb working and use a usb bt dongle for two bt devices and 2 stacks for those people who really need it Jan 11 03:44:18 KEYofR: good idea Jan 11 03:44:28 destinal: bluez does use dbus now though, which might be useful Jan 11 03:45:39 hostmode usb would be nice for other reasons as well, like external storage! then we can have our own handy dandy pre-powered NAS/fileserver Jan 11 03:46:04 you can buy usb-bt parts that are just a little bare board with a chip, no usb plug even, or you can buy the tiny dongles that yiu pop in a netook and they barely stick out, break that apart to ditch the big usb plug. Jan 11 03:46:31 CoolMatty: I've looked into it but I don't really know what I'm doing there. I've gotten the USB chipset into on the go mode, and plugged in the right adapter cable to force host mode and it provided power but I couldn't get it to enumerate Jan 11 03:46:40 (and I don't really understand where to go from there) Jan 11 03:46:42 butcher on a micro-usb plug and velcro the chip to the side or rear Jan 11 03:47:04 destinal: well if you don't know, I certainly wouldn't. :D Jan 11 03:47:14 I commend your attempts though :p Jan 11 03:47:35 it was cool seeing a usb hub light up powered by the pre though Jan 11 03:47:47 hi guys, can someone share a bit of insight into the cryptofs change with 1.3.5? Jan 11 03:47:49 I wonder what kind of impact that must have on battery life, haha Jan 11 03:48:00 jackx: what insight would you like? Jan 11 03:48:04 KEYofR: velcro? not gaffer tape? Jan 11 03:48:23 max (by spec) draw of a usb device is 100ma right? Jan 11 03:48:27 or was it 500ma Jan 11 03:48:31 CoolMatty: 500 Jan 11 03:48:33 rwhitby, pc7 Jan 11 03:48:41 CoolMatty: 100ma until it negotiates for 500ma Jan 11 03:48:48 (indestructible epoxy ;) Jan 11 03:48:52 oh ok, that's where I got confused Jan 11 03:49:04 zsoc - to my understanding palm moved all user-installed apps to the usb volume and into a cryptofs. trying to understand how i can access the contents of the cryptofs - seen a bunch of references to it being mounted unencrypted in /media/cryptofs, but i don't have that dir... Jan 11 03:49:09 jackx: Pre's were running out of space on /var where third party apps were installed before. Palm ran into some interesting app limit issues and at the same time wanted to support incredibly large apps like need for speed, xplane, the sims 3, etc Jan 11 03:49:22 nice and light grey like a cynderblock too Jan 11 03:49:32 jackx: So palm decided to use the large /media/internal partition (the one that holds your data and appears as a usb drive) to store apps instead Jan 11 03:49:37 jackx: you don't have that dir until you're running 1.3.5 Jan 11 03:49:44 i'm running 1.3.5.1 Jan 11 03:50:04 jackx: and you don't have /media/cryptofs/apps, when you look on the linux command line on the Pre? Jan 11 03:50:07 jackx: unfortunately if they just used /media/internal directly, all these new shiny expensive apps would be trivially easy to copy Jan 11 03:50:34 destinal: isn't it just slightly less trivial now? (SCP the files instead?) Jan 11 03:50:37 which they are anyways? um, rsync? Jan 11 03:50:39 jackx: So they decided to mount a cryptofs on /media/internal where they could store the apps yet not have them appear on the USB drive Jan 11 03:50:41 jackx: note that you don't see it via USB drive mode ... Jan 11 03:50:55 CoolMatty: that is a barrier which excludes 98% of customers Jan 11 03:50:58 correct, /media/cryptofs doesn't exist. am looking via ssh logged in as user. do i need to sudo to see it? Jan 11 03:51:07 jackx: yes Jan 11 03:51:07 right - and so unless you download the sdk and use novaterm, which is the absolute minimal set, then you can "never" get to the source. Jan 11 03:51:10 rwhitby: I acknowledge that :p Jan 11 03:51:18 CoolMatty: yes, but this is considered "due diligence" and slightly harder knocks out everyone without root on the device Jan 11 03:51:23 terminal installs right from preware with no effort now, and rsync is already in, so all it takes is for a monkey to type in a couple lines from a wiki page. Jan 11 03:51:23 or as Palm's director of security says "Normal people will never see this stuff" Jan 11 03:51:35 duh, should have figured that one out on my own... makes sense now, thanks. Jan 11 03:51:52 KEYofR a monkey can't install preware. Neither can your aunt minnie Jan 11 03:51:56 KEYofR: that still excludes 98% of the customers Jan 11 03:52:01 pretty weak encryption scheme, may i add... nice for people who find a stolen phone not getting to your app data, but if this is supposed to stop people from stealing js code... Jan 11 03:52:05 Rick-home: so we are... abbynormal? Jan 11 03:52:06 I guess that makes sense. I'm just thinking from the windows mobile store's issues, where people complained when they managed to decrypt some apps Jan 11 03:52:13 jackx: it's not intended for hat Jan 11 03:52:14 that Jan 11 03:52:16 Rick_work: I have a video of a monkey installing preware. He is, however, an exceptionally _smart_ monkey Jan 11 03:52:28 rwhitby: it's not intended for hat either... but now we're back into shade clothes Jan 11 03:52:37 zsoc: ;-) Jan 11 03:52:40 so the only purpose of cryptofs is to not expose all the app code easily via usb mode to curious people who just aren't that motivated? Jan 11 03:52:41 youtube or it isn't true des :-) Jan 11 03:52:49 jackx: correct Jan 11 03:52:52 jackx yes. Jan 11 03:52:56 cute Jan 11 03:52:57 destinal: did that monkey also have an infinite number of monkey friends with an infinite number of monkey lifetimes to work with? :p Jan 11 03:53:09 lol Jan 11 03:53:25 CoolMatty: installing Preware is slightly easier than that. not much, but slightly ... Jan 11 03:53:25 well actually preware was really written by an infinite number of monkeys, in an infinitely small amount of time Jan 11 03:53:32 we just faked the rest of the "development effort" Jan 11 03:53:50 * CoolMatty screenshots and sends to precentral Jan 11 03:53:52 BREAKING NEWS Jan 11 03:53:53 :p Jan 11 03:54:08 CoolMatty: PreCentral is run by simians too ... Jan 11 03:54:10 "PREWARE WRITTEN BY MONKEYS, MORE AT 11" Jan 11 03:54:16 oh no, it's a conspiracy Jan 11 03:54:27 i wonder if they will ever figure out a real secure way to protect JS source. if the OS can decrypt it, then root can decrypt it, which means anyone can, so... Jan 11 03:54:45 jackx so, no. Jan 11 03:54:48 jackx: right, the cryptofs was only intended to prevent casual access Jan 11 03:54:57 jackx: if you want an app to be secure, don't write it in JS. in fact, don't let anyone download it. Jan 11 03:55:05 jackx you can decompile java. people don't bitch about that.... Jan 11 03:55:07 run it via SSL over the internet, and make sure it's not cached. bout my only guess as to how they could "foolproof" do that Jan 11 03:55:23 CoolMatty: MITM attack Jan 11 03:55:34 DRM is a losing battle .. seems like palm doesn't have the money to invest in that one :( Jan 11 03:55:35 CoolMatty: you can still man in the middle that if you can force the client (which you own) to accept your own CA Jan 11 03:55:36 you need client certs too Jan 11 03:55:37 keys Jan 11 03:55:54 two key authentification Jan 11 03:56:02 essentially, if you can play it, you can read it, you can copy it, you can reverse engineer it Jan 11 03:56:08 these are fundamental basic law Jan 11 03:56:09 s Jan 11 03:56:14 true, and by the time they got that working they'd probably crack SSL completely anyway. or find out that they were using MD5 instead of SHA certs Jan 11 03:56:15 :p Jan 11 03:56:18 and you need to make sure that the code which checks to see if it is authenticated is actually loaded over the SSL link too Jan 11 03:56:26 I thought installing preware was easy now too? I bet it _could_ be with wosqi? That makes getting novacomd on the pc effortless now, and then it uses it itself, no need for a manual termin, but, it provides a crude terminal built in too. Jan 11 03:56:28 the definition of "secure" is when the cost to break the security exceeds the value of the secured item Jan 11 03:56:45 enough for that monkey to paste non-interactive commands into. Jan 11 03:57:01 KEYofR: yeah, once the monkey has a shell, it's easy Jan 11 03:57:04 KEYofR: if we made a type: game installer it could be installed with palm-install preware-installer.ipk or whatever on your dev machine Jan 11 03:57:05 rwhitby: then perhaps having a server execute the js and have the browser do the css/html only. oh wait, I just described PHP Jan 11 03:57:06 >.> Jan 11 03:57:25 CoolMatty: yeah, and we all know how secure that is ... Jan 11 03:57:31 ba dum pche Jan 11 03:57:33 thats what I'm saying, webos quick install provides a "shell button" now Jan 11 03:57:47 is there any filebrowser for webOS? Jan 11 03:57:51 KEYofR: once you have wosqi installed, you're already past the non-easy part Jan 11 03:57:51 KEYofR: you don't need WOSQI Jan 11 03:57:52 yes Jan 11 03:57:56 just the SDK Jan 11 03:57:56 internalz Jan 11 03:57:59 CoolMatty: you now have quipped twice in ways that amused me, impressive Jan 11 03:58:01 PHP can be secure. if it's not written by monkeys. unfortunately, as we know, there are a LOT of monkeys out there Jan 11 03:58:21 webosqi installs itself! it's just a java jar you click on Jan 11 03:58:34 i thought it didn't install at all Jan 11 03:58:38 CoolMatty: just because there are a lot of monkeys doesn't mean a lot of monkeys are writing PHP. they could be writing visual basic Jan 11 03:58:45 "java executable" Jan 11 03:58:53 CoolMatty: i like to summarise that as "the world is dumb." :) Jan 11 03:58:55 is the new update for the pre functional with preware? Jan 11 03:58:57 IT pulls down and uses doctor and novacom for you all by itself Jan 11 03:59:00 i like the monkeys thing tho Jan 11 03:59:07 where would i go to check for that sort of thing in the future? Jan 11 03:59:07 icarus: it always is Jan 11 03:59:12 "the world is full of monkeys throwing poo around" Jan 11 03:59:14 zsoc: oh, alright Jan 11 03:59:16 destinal: I refuse to believe vb is still being used. I know it is, but I refuse to believe it anyway, to keep my sanity. Jan 11 03:59:18 icarus: yes Jan 11 03:59:26 icarus: follow @webosinternals on twitter Jan 11 03:59:26 icarus: worst case scenario, wait 24 hours. Jan 11 03:59:27 so, if you want - slightly more - javascript security, you can download your js code at first run, and store it in a sql database instead of loading it in the ipk and retrieving it an evaling it when you need it. Jan 11 03:59:34 it doesn't install, no, but it downloads and installs all prerequisites it needs, other than java itse;f Jan 11 03:59:34 lol, i give _terrible_ advice Jan 11 03:59:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU Jan 11 04:00:00 what's nice about this is, you can occasionaly check for updates and download updates to your app without re-installing it. Jan 11 04:00:05 Which is kinda a cool idea. Jan 11 04:00:13 destinal: what is this? a once a week affair? ;) Jan 11 04:00:16 you know what I found foolproof for not getting your code stolen? write code not worth stealing! Jan 11 04:00:33 I live and die by this method! Jan 11 04:00:33 zsoc: visual basic came up, mandatory link :P Jan 11 04:00:54 destinal: is it sad I knew what that video was before I clicked? Jan 11 04:01:13 sup? Jan 11 04:01:13 I can't read that screen, they need to ENHANCE it Jan 11 04:01:23 lol Jan 11 04:01:44 I want some of that enhance software for undoing lossy transformations Jan 11 04:01:56 csi grade software Jan 11 04:01:58 I could store my music in an amazingly small space Jan 11 04:02:11 zoom in to images beyond the resolution of the pixels. Jan 11 04:02:35 ENHANCE THAT GREY SPEC ON HIS SHIRT. COLORIZE IT. IT'S BLOOD! NOW SCAN THE DNA. IT'S THE KILLER! Jan 11 04:02:56 there's a joke there somewhere, we need fake killer confirmation app CSI style Jan 11 04:02:59 I should be a screenwriter Jan 11 04:03:14 zoom and enhance any image and it shows the secret conspiracy behind it Jan 11 04:03:26 sounds like a meme in the making Jan 11 04:03:42 destinal: in all fairness, there may be a secondary higher resolution feed that they pull in to do 'enhances', it's possible these days with the types of lenses around Jan 11 04:03:54 theres nothing magical about interpolation and whatever it's called what you can deduce finer details by analising multiople frames of a motion picture than any of the single frames provides. Jan 11 04:04:17 typo contest. I win Jan 11 04:04:18 I mean, that's how gigapixel photos are handled, it draws in the new data after you zoom in so your ram doesn't explode Jan 11 04:04:20 * CoolMatty zooms and enhances on Windows. *reveals hidden Xerox code* Jan 11 04:04:32 hey all, I'm trying to compile something with the arm7 tool chain and when i do a configure I get this error. Any idea how I get configure to find the sdl libs? "checking for library containing SDL_Init... no" Jan 11 04:05:01 hi etx Jan 11 04:05:07 hihi :) Jan 11 04:05:09 etx_: your SDL/ folder is in the wrong place? Jan 11 04:05:15 etx_: try this. sb2 -M /srv/preware/cross-compile/staging/mapping-armv7 then in that shell, do this: export PATH=/usr/local/bin:$PATH Jan 11 04:05:17 zsoc: not all of them. I downloaded a 2GB image before. yay for 6GB RAM. Firefox was not happy with me though. Jan 11 04:05:26 then configure with ./configure --with-sdl-prefix=/usr/local Jan 11 04:05:28 etx_ did you run the make toochain as the wiki calls for ??? Jan 11 04:05:30 LOL: Read http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/223390-what-does-pdk-mean-overall-app-possibilities.html#post2138719 and then go to the next post .... Jan 11 04:05:32 mostly because firefox was already using 1GB and it didn't like being shown up by photoshop Jan 11 04:05:38 see wut i did there? Jan 11 04:05:57 Rick_work: yeah, I can compile doom without any issues Jan 11 04:06:06 rwhitby: LOL. THAT IS THE BEST THING I'VE SEEN ON P|C THIS YEAR Jan 11 04:06:46 hmm i'm curious Jan 11 04:06:54 iphone had no native dev at all for about a year Jan 11 04:06:56 'then apple released Jan 11 04:07:07 noty sure why - maybe they just wanted product out first before they invested in an sdk Jan 11 04:07:13 and they didndt want to delay Jan 11 04:07:17 simialr for webos Jan 11 04:07:26 Their NDK you mean? Jan 11 04:07:35 raster: if you mean no commercial native dev I agree Jan 11 04:07:36 a native sdk is much trickier than adding a few extensions to js in webkit and saying "use js+html" Jan 11 04:07:43 yeah Jan 11 04:07:45 no native dev Jan 11 04:07:47 anyway Jan 11 04:07:49 but both iphone and webos had native development going on a lot earlier Jan 11 04:07:50 it seesm to be a trend Jan 11 04:07:50 destinal: yeah that didnt work out, changed the path in sb2 and re-ran configure, no dice Jan 11 04:07:58 native sdk ends up coming it he end Jan 11 04:08:07 * zsoc adds webGL into webkit and says "use js+css/html" Jan 11 04:08:13 by hackers rather than suits Jan 11 04:08:15 zsoc: where should my SDL/ be? Jan 11 04:08:35 etx_: no idea, it's possible whatever configure file you're using handles environmental variables funny Jan 11 04:08:45 i wonder what people would think if the maker went "wek instead of having no nativ e sdk- we have a very rough and ugly one we will clean up over the next 1-2 years instead of saying "no (native) sdk and then throw it at you 1-2 years down the track?" Jan 11 04:08:46 you could be Jan 11 04:09:06 is it better to have not-so-slick native dev supported and possible from theget go Jan 11 04:09:08 and just fix it up Jan 11 04:09:15 or is it better as an all-or-nothing thing? Jan 11 04:09:19 raster: palm is releasing PDK less than 1 year after initial device release Jan 11 04:09:31 zsoc: its about 1 year Jan 11 04:09:32 raster: I think so. developers after all shouldn't need a polished product Jan 11 04:09:38 as of march... Jan 11 04:09:45 destinal: have you _talked_ to most webos devels? Jan 11 04:09:55 zsoc: well, they're WEB developers Jan 11 04:10:00 right Jan 11 04:10:12 you catch what likes the bait Jan 11 04:10:29 true Jan 11 04:11:06 i cant make everyone happy with 1 size fits all Jan 11 04:11:09 personally I'm not good with web development, too many layers of abstraction that i haven't learned yet Jan 11 04:11:16 eg all apps need to be js+html (web-ish apps) or go away Jan 11 04:11:26 I'd kind of prefer to have something run directly on my hardware Jan 11 04:11:27 that will piss off lots of devs Jan 11 04:11:33 same with "java or go home" Jan 11 04:11:34 etc. Jan 11 04:11:40 destinal: web development is easy once you realize it's essentially fuzzy math Jan 11 04:11:46 native dev admittedly is "c/c++ or go home" Jan 11 04:11:49 you put something in, and you'll get 3 different results! Jan 11 04:11:51 it's great! Jan 11 04:12:00 but unlike the rest it is the standard springboard to all other dev langs Jan 11 04:12:07 ie python, ruby, perl, js, etc. Jan 11 04:12:13 they all are "native apps" that run ast the env Jan 11 04:12:15 just the number of abstractions involved in webos are staggering Jan 11 04:12:21 layer upon layer upon layer Jan 11 04:12:38 so its easier to bootstrap up to yoru favorite lang from "native" , but the other way around it generally just not sane/possible Jan 11 04:12:40 i just wanna compile this lua game engine to make some fun 2d games Jan 11 04:12:49 thus why i am thinking its ok to have a rough and ready native dev env Jan 11 04:12:51 ugh lua Jan 11 04:12:54 hehehe Jan 11 04:12:57 i had lua working with something.. Jan 11 04:12:57 etx_: where is it? Jan 11 04:13:02 and let developers bootstrap their way up to their preferre dlangs if they are not c/c++ Jan 11 04:13:03 raster: I agree Jan 11 04:13:09 raster: and I think that USED to be traditional Jan 11 04:13:15 destinal: http://love2d.org/download Jan 11 04:13:23 back when hackers were real hackers etc :P Jan 11 04:13:23 no 1 os maker or devidce maker can fully supporet all the thigns develoeprs like to use Jan 11 04:13:31 its just to lmany langs/libs out there Jan 11 04:13:38 at best it can support a core from which u can build more Jan 11 04:13:44 and then let the community suport itsefl Jan 11 04:13:54 ie the python guys - they look after python and all its bindings and so on Jan 11 04:13:55 i mean the original sdk was, here's a switch, enter some bits, or here's a card, punch in some instructions Jan 11 04:14:04 and as long as u are open to having these added in as "optional add-ons" Jan 11 04:14:14 then u are being a good benevolent maker Jan 11 04:14:15 if you can't go from there, wait for others to build new layers you can use Jan 11 04:14:39 as opposed to the apple way which is "u cant add an interpeter of any kind so u use c/obj-c/c++ or you go away" Jan 11 04:15:00 yeah Jan 11 04:15:02 i agree Jan 11 04:15:22 I want to run my sco unix bbx or cobol or filepro app on my pre, thats my preferred development env ;) no perl. all ksh. kinda not kidding about the ksh actually. Jan 11 04:15:26 shit is going to hit the fan in the apple apps store when that flash cs5 comes out, I just know it Jan 11 04:16:03 i am just wonderign ifr.. its good to do a native, yet not so polished sdk vs do a high level sdk only (the java/js etc. of this world) and say "Screww that" to a native sdk until N months/years down the track u have things together enough to do the native sdk Jan 11 04:16:49 if your native sdk is crappy u wiull get yelled at by people for havng it be bad Jan 11 04:16:59 etx_: lol Jan 11 04:17:00 configure: error: Can't LÖVE without SDL Jan 11 04:17:03 but if u have no sdk - then u get yelled at for having none Jan 11 04:17:03 who cares about SDKS, it's all about what IDE you use Jan 11 04:17:07 i think this native aspect is a bit of a stopgap until they figure out how to get the same sort of responsiveness built into the original webOS html/js/css stuff Jan 11 04:17:17 destinal: yeah heh thats what I got Jan 11 04:17:23 if you aren't using some ridiculously customized vi then you're doing it wrong! >.> Jan 11 04:17:35 if u delay the platform/device for4 1 or 2 years to get an sdk that is good readym then u get yelled at for being behind everyone else because u are a year late to the party Jan 11 04:17:41 no matter what - u lose somewhere Jan 11 04:17:45 i beleive rick was saying they want NPAPI used more ... Jan 11 04:17:57 just curious.. what is the least costly loss Jan 11 04:17:58 :) Jan 11 04:18:08 and that may be where it's going .. NPAPI + SDL for in-app-nativeness for webOS Jan 11 04:18:14 if they want npapi used _we need apis_ for it :P Jan 11 04:18:23 or at least some documentation, or something not locked up in binaries Jan 11 04:18:26 which is what we will get with the PDK zsoc Jan 11 04:18:28 raster: the other way for a company to go is to just enable the webos-internals.org model in the interim Jan 11 04:18:45 bpadalino: u can never get the same level of responsiveness as long as u are doing thngs in js+html Jan 11 04:18:45 etx_: I tried export LIBS="-Wl,-rpath-link=/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib"; export CFLAGS="-I/usr/local/include" and ran it again and it got further Jan 11 04:18:53 u can get close - but native will always be able to be better Jan 11 04:18:55 Rick-home: we'll see how that goes. i still don't buy npapis being more resource friendly than direct surface with hw accel Jan 11 04:19:00 the real issue for webos is - 3existing apps Jan 11 04:19:02 etx_: now it's configure: error: Can't LÖVE without OpenGL Jan 11 04:19:08 then the developers who care can do stuff early, and the suits can get it when it's polished Jan 11 04:19:08 destinal: nice Jan 11 04:19:10 people have already written their gamesor apps in c/c++ or something else Jan 11 04:19:15 destinal: ah hah Jan 11 04:19:17 and they do not want to port it to js+hrtml Jan 11 04:19:19 destinal: i'm guessing you need opengl binaries/headers Jan 11 04:19:24 zsoc it isn't aht it's more resource friendly, it's that it will be sandboxed. Jan 11 04:19:34 in fact js+html is very foreign to their traditional ways fo writing apps Jan 11 04:19:40 raster, a front end should be easy enough to write for a developer, right ? Jan 11 04:19:42 speaking of great SDKs, the PS2 compiler has a compile option for optimizations. the option tells the compiler how long to spend in seconds to optimize the executable. Jan 11 04:19:45 u dont draw pixels- u have to generate html and dom objects and so on Jan 11 04:19:48 etx_: that means this is probably a non-trivial port Jan 11 04:19:55 so if you were given a 'viewport' .. where html/js/css sets up the scene .. Jan 11 04:19:58 and guess what if it doesn't finish before it hits that time? corrupt executable! Jan 11 04:20:00 etx_: since it probably doesn't support opengl-es Jan 11 04:20:02 u basically just said "fuck you" to anyone who wants to port to your platform if u force js+html on them Jan 11 04:20:09 Rick-home: something running _correctly_ is more important to me than sandboxed. You can check my code for sanity/security. i'll give you the source :p Jan 11 04:20:18 destinal: yeah if its using full blown opengl its gonna be more time than its worth i think Jan 11 04:21:03 i really need to brush up on my linux programming, i've spent too much time in xcode land Jan 11 04:21:17 hiding malicious code in source has been done throughout the years... it's quite an interesting thing to do Jan 11 04:21:20 etx_ recursively grep the code for glBegin :) that'll tell you what you're dealing with Jan 11 04:21:27 looks innocent .. acts maliciously Jan 11 04:21:29 raster: good thing Palm is covering both ends of the spectrum Jan 11 04:21:42 bpadalino: ah, true, there are great ways to obfuscate code in C... i just cant do it :( Jan 11 04:21:57 rwhitby: now they are. 3 months ago they werent Jan 11 04:22:07 and from day 0 they didnt have a native-dev story Jan 11 04:22:11 it was js+html or go away. Jan 11 04:22:16 raster: true, but 3 months ago they didn't have the drivers ready Jan 11 04:22:31 so they couldn't do native, even if they wanted to then Jan 11 04:22:39 raster: the _phone_ barely got out on day 1. js+html was what the gui used natively, its "webOS" :) Jan 11 04:22:57 okay so photoshop uses OpenGL for its UI enhancements. this obviously means using CSI-logic that it should be trivial to port. Who's stepping up? Jan 11 04:22:58 rwhitby: my question is.. is it bad to release without a natiuve sdk at all - even if its rought?\ Jan 11 04:23:07 is the way peolpe are doing things now better? Jan 11 04:23:12 raster: also android was the same way Jan 11 04:23:12 ie native dev comes in later Jan 11 04:23:23 zsoc: http://pastebin.com/m774e161b Jan 11 04:23:33 raster: down to marketing I guess, and staying "on message" Jan 11 04:23:50 destinal: i know. thats why is aid "the way people are doing things now" :) Jan 11 04:23:54 raster: also, you can do anything you wanted on webos natively from day 1, just not with a gui ;) Jan 11 04:24:04 that's why SDL apps are called "Plug-ins" - cause in web world binary stuff is a "Plug-in" Jan 11 04:24:29 zsoc: thats pretty useless :) Jan 11 04:24:32 not a native app or a linux utility. a "Plug-In" Jan 11 04:24:41 raster, i think you end up spending too much time supporting and shuffling around API's and breaking things if the native development isn't really that good .. Jan 11 04:24:42 raster: tell that to mr nslu2 over there ;) Jan 11 04:24:46 rwhitby: I hope it's also because they mean to include NPAPI stuff to play with as well as native binaries Jan 11 04:24:54 err native sdl binaries Jan 11 04:25:04 which i think is why the "internals" way works better .. since you effectively outsourced that development to the people who want to do it .. Jan 11 04:25:07 and for free Jan 11 04:25:20 palm controls us so hard xD Jan 11 04:25:22 then when you're good and ready - you will have not had any down time Jan 11 04:25:40 * rwhitby bbiab Jan 11 04:25:44 well, they didn't actually, I don't think anything we did influenced their native sdk direction Jan 11 04:25:46 much Jan 11 04:25:49 palm does all the heavy lifting ... we're just playing with puzzle pieces Jan 11 04:26:13 we may have given people who would have jumped ship reason to hang aruond Jan 11 04:26:22 s/ruo/rou/ Jan 11 04:26:23 destinal meant: we may have given people who would have jumped ship reason to hang around Jan 11 04:26:33 hmm if I am not on wifi it wont let me sync my google contacts :S Jan 11 04:26:51 personally I actually bought my pre _because_ of webos-internals Jan 11 04:27:02 wow, really ? Jan 11 04:27:03 and because it proved the phone had a hackable linux that I could change totally Jan 11 04:27:22 I'm with destinal Jan 11 04:27:25 yeah, the linux stuff was pretty spectacular Jan 11 04:27:29 I knew nothing about webos until I grabbed the emulator Jan 11 04:27:37 so it wasn't the interface that sold me Jan 11 04:28:04 etx_: lua honestly remind me of flash Jan 11 04:29:00 I literally cancelled my order for an iphone-3gs and placed one for pre the day I read the posts online that dev mode made root easy Jan 11 04:29:14 and joined the channel :) Jan 11 04:29:24 the pre was my first smartphone Jan 11 04:29:41 unfortunately, now I'm screwed, cause I'll never settle for less now Jan 11 04:30:00 i catch crap from all my friends for having a palm device Jan 11 04:30:09 another day... another dolla... Jan 11 04:30:11 destinal: good to have you ;) Jan 11 04:30:12 the problem with the pre was... there was no gsm version until recently Jan 11 04:30:12 don't worry, it'll get better, and honestly I think that the future really is not corporate operating systems. Jan 11 04:30:14 definitely what dest said. android gets so much press which suggests to a consumer that it will have more and better developers and apps, and the hardware _kills_ the pre. I hate the pre's hardware (physical form and controls, not cpu/ram/etc) Jan 11 04:30:24 and by the time it appeared.. i was well on another bandwagon :) Jan 11 04:30:39 so I know of at least one person that I converted from the iPhone tot he Pre today Jan 11 04:30:43 has anyone even used a droid? the think is just terrible Jan 11 04:30:45 I can't help but wonder what a pre with a horizontal keyboard would be like Jan 11 04:30:48 (and so far this bandwagon is nicer than the pre could have been... :)) Jan 11 04:30:59 I personally have converted like 5 in a chain Jan 11 04:31:11 because it runs e17!! Jan 11 04:31:22 The only saving grace is the greater hackability, and it's not merely a saving grace, it's actually a big enough deal to override the other disadvantages Jan 11 04:31:22 raster: samsung? i always _wanted_ to like them... just so... ugh. i don't know, they have "smartphones" With their own software. I'm talking instinct/s30 tho for my point of reference Jan 11 04:31:29 my neighbor showed me her iPhone 3GS and told me how she couldn't wait until it got flash, news to me, I thought it wasn't getting flash... I checked online and I was right, no flash for iphone... flash coming to pre in Feb... she is going out to get a pre sometime this week... Jan 11 04:31:48 flash isn't necessarily coming in feb Jan 11 04:31:56 they said in the "next few months" Jan 11 04:31:57 CoolMatty: Flash is coming in feb Jan 11 04:32:03 er, beta at least Jan 11 04:32:19 they said flash will be in 1.4... they said 1.4 comes in Feb Jan 11 04:32:19 bpadalino: of course! and it wil do so.. out of the box. no hacking needed :) Jan 11 04:32:22 they said it was coming before year's end too, but >.> (I hope it does tho, srsly) Jan 11 04:32:37 they said beta is coming "soon" and logic would say that the beta will be before the release Jan 11 04:32:39 raster, how easy will it be to get root@device# ? Jan 11 04:32:46 sweet I have five quakes open Jan 11 04:32:55 CoolMatty: they never said that flash would be released before new years Jan 11 04:33:01 Has anyone had any problems with there theme when trying the beta Preware? Jan 11 04:33:04 raster: if you are making a phone that runs e17 as a default gui, i will at least have to _look_ at it :P Jan 11 04:33:08 bpadalino: dunno. that's up in the air. it more depends on sales Jan 11 04:33:10 they said they hoped to have the beta out by then... which obviously didn't work out Jan 11 04:33:13 cryptk|work: adobe said it would be out as beta before the end of the year; last year Jan 11 04:33:18 understandable Jan 11 04:33:24 what I didn't understand is they said flash would be on the app catalog? Jan 11 04:33:24 I think in the future you'll download a fully OSS phone distro.. we're a ways off but palm is actually helping the change of mind if nothing else Jan 11 04:33:25 raster: y'know, i heard they were making a "new proprietary smartphone engine", didn't guess this tho Jan 11 04:33:25 if sold via a telco - espect the telco to want to root u up the arse and lock it down Jan 11 04:33:33 no crypto locked bootloader, easy root, etc Jan 11 04:33:35 CoolMatty: they said they're have flash in to the manufacturers' hands by end of last year, right? Jan 11 04:33:41 CoolMatty: the flash beta will be on the app catalog Jan 11 04:33:42 if sold "full price" out of a box - there is no reason not to allow root access "as-is" Jan 11 04:33:58 cryptk|work: right, but how? I mean, I don't recall the app catalog having any other plugins/services on it Jan 11 04:33:59 I would be super surprised if apple let palm beat them to flash Jan 11 04:34:02 that would be a departure Jan 11 04:34:05 raster: of course there is. Jan 11 04:34:09 raster: MONEY Jan 11 04:34:09 dtzWill: great point... that is what they said, that flash would be in the hands of developers... not necessarially the users Jan 11 04:34:13 brb, meeting time Jan 11 04:34:28 destinal: how money? Jan 11 04:34:31 apple has never been a "first" company i think .. they weren't the first mp3 player, not the first smartphone .. Jan 11 04:34:33 apple would have had to get adobe to lie repeatedly to beat the pre to flash right now Jan 11 04:34:34 they made their $ Jan 11 04:34:37 they sold u the devicd Jan 11 04:34:40 device Jan 11 04:34:41 done. Jan 11 04:34:41 raster: all these app markets Jan 11 04:34:45 palm gets a cut Jan 11 04:34:45 also what bpadalino said is true Jan 11 04:34:47 apple gets a cut Jan 11 04:34:49 google gets a cut Jan 11 04:34:51 they don't go "first", they go "best" Jan 11 04:34:57 destinal: trust me - thats not on the cards. Jan 11 04:35:17 raster: you mean you expect it to go away? Jan 11 04:35:26 no Jan 11 04:35:38 locking the things down silly-like for the "appstores" Jan 11 04:35:48 the "first" people, inventors, always lose out the the first person _after_ them, who take the thing and actually make a product out of it and market it Jan 11 04:36:29 case in point: look at the poor guy who invented tetris, and the long involved legal battles he had over it Jan 11 04:36:40 from chapstick right on up to anything Jan 11 04:37:08 800k library, 598k configure file. TELL ME this is a joke? Jan 11 04:37:25 i am flabbergasted Jan 11 04:37:26 EXTREME CUSTOMIZATION! :p Jan 11 04:37:40 they let you give every variable in the library a different name! Jan 11 04:37:45 and function! Jan 11 04:37:59 raster: root doesn't necessarily make phone unlocking possible Jan 11 04:38:27 zsoc, maybe it was written by Microsoft Word and every letter has 14 property tags around it Jan 11 04:38:33 raster: if the baseband is isolated and secure (which it supposedly is on all modern devices) having root on the host system means nothing to unlocking Jan 11 04:38:51 they have to unlock the pre plus. I want one on sprint >:( Jan 11 04:38:55 we know in practice that many have vulnerabilities of course, but ... Jan 11 04:39:34 destinal: i know. and thats how it shoudl be Jan 11 04:39:37 but as i said Jan 11 04:39:43 telcos WANT to lock things down Jan 11 04:39:50 makers want to lock down BECAUSe the telcos do Jan 11 04:39:59 right but you'd think what they'd want to lock down would be baseband Jan 11 04:40:04 if u sell it unlocked (full price) then there is no NEED to lock it down Jan 11 04:40:07 Hey guys i dont know if its me or the new preware but when i upgraded there wasnt a option to remove my theme anymore so i had to use webosqi to remove it and it didnt pull all of my theme off now i have some icons that are stuck from previous theme as my default Jan 11 04:40:12 u are not endangering an income stream Jan 11 04:40:24 baseband will be locked down anyway Jan 11 04:40:35 i wont be able to modify or fiddle withits firmware Jan 11 04:40:37 raster: well if everyone switches to an alternative store you'd break down the app store's income stream Jan 11 04:40:49 I think palm cares a lot about their store's income potential Jan 11 04:40:53 not because of money - because 23/3g etc. gsm networks are by design fragile Jan 11 04:40:57 the problem i have with retail prices on cell phones is how asinine and ridiculous it is .. Jan 11 04:41:12 why don't telcos just stop trying to trust the phones? Even MS finally realises you can't build systems that way any more. (out of parts that trust each other implicitly) Jan 11 04:41:13 raster: but again, if your baseband is secure you can't attack gsm with it Jan 11 04:41:18 and some phone with baseband firmware that is misbehaving (because someoen scewed with it) can take down an entire cell Jan 11 04:41:19 retail difference between iphone and ipod touch (of same capacity) is not representative of what the real cost differential is Jan 11 04:41:32 CoolMatty: you are wondering how they will distribute the flash beta through the catalog? until CES there were no native apps in the catalog and then BAM there they were... the App Catalog is a palm product and they have the means to distribute whatever they want thoguh it Jan 11 04:41:43 and u'd have every telco blacklist u as a supplier if u make devices that so easily fuck with their networks Jan 11 04:41:47 What is a 250k library doing with a 17,000 line configure? Jan 11 04:41:57 zsoc, autotools is nuts Jan 11 04:42:06 bpadalino: aaaahhhhh, that's more likely. Jan 11 04:42:14 baseband can be secured away Jan 11 04:42:16 and it should be Jan 11 04:42:29 THEN it would be ok to root any devivce, because you wouldn't be able to access the network anyways, the worst you could do would be cause some local radio interference, and advertize you exact location as you do it. Jan 11 04:42:31 it's like having a GSM modem at that point Jan 11 04:42:32 it should be a blakc box u ask to make calls, set up data connections and otherwise control to the level needed for a phone to work Jan 11 04:42:37 jack87: ping Jan 11 04:42:40 you can connect it to a device you own and it can't hurt anything Jan 11 04:42:42 etx_: what were you looking at the LOVE engine for? Something in particular? I may not want to debug this Jan 11 04:42:43 the protocl to talk to it to do so should really be made public Jan 11 04:42:48 cryptk|work: it's not so much the "how", but if they'll allow other such plugins to be submitted and added as well Jan 11 04:43:10 so what if the host cpu is a device I own (ie have root) Jan 11 04:43:16 the telco fear is irrational Jan 11 04:43:42 CoolMatty: My guess would be that if it can be made in the SDK/PDK then it can be App Catalogged by anyone (perhaps after a review) and if it needs something more than that then case by case basis... Jan 11 04:43:44 destinal: there are many parts Jan 11 04:43:48 one fear is modem Jan 11 04:44:03 the other is - the telco subsidised your phone by $100 or $200 or $300 or more Jan 11 04:44:08 and they want their money back Jan 11 04:44:18 and to do that they want to lock the thing down at a higher level Jan 11 04:44:24 eg only use THEIR services for things Jan 11 04:44:27 no voip Jan 11 04:44:33 no tethering Jan 11 04:44:38 and so on etc. etc. Jan 11 04:44:39 case in point: verizon "app" store Jan 11 04:44:47 (only able to install app s solde by the telco) Jan 11 04:44:48 etc. Jan 11 04:44:57 raster: interesting thing, though. palm is getting accepted by carriers around the world and they don't lock people out Jan 11 04:45:05 of root Jan 11 04:45:07 they will want to squeeze their subsidy of the device out of u by making u come ot them to buy things Jan 11 04:45:10 raster: is glLoadIdentity supported in GLES2.0 or only ES1.x? Jan 11 04:45:28 what it comes down to is that you signed an agreement with your telco, if you break it they "can" refuse service.... more than likely they won't though... Jan 11 04:45:35 destinal: they make a token effort at lock-out Jan 11 04:45:45 of course. I say tough. charge me for the hardware and charge me for the data usage if I want. But if I pay, then they have no business in my business. Jan 11 04:45:50 its its not instantly obvious - your apps dont run as root. u dont have a shell. u need to "hack it" Jan 11 04:45:52 much like android Jan 11 04:45:55 zsoc: 1.0 only afaik.http://www.khronos.org/opengles/sdk/docs/man/ Jan 11 04:46:04 but they made it easy enough to keep you guys "on side" :) Jan 11 04:46:09 dtzWill: thank you, that explains a lot. wait.. 1.1 too right? Jan 11 04:46:17 zsoc: identiy matrix? Jan 11 04:46:19 zsoc: been using that guide lots. but identity is something either glu can do, or you can do yourself Jan 11 04:46:25 Hmm I have two videos and only one shows up even though they were converted using the same program and the same settings :S Jan 11 04:46:26 zsoc: 1.1 sorry Jan 11 04:46:37 raster: I think it's pretty common knowledge now that there's stuff you can run to get a root shell easily, and that must not scare the telcos if they know that and still go forward Jan 11 04:46:52 Toaster23: are the files the same source, do they play on the pc Jan 11 04:46:59 destinal: i know! anythign u try and secure can be hacked. Jan 11 04:47:02 They play on the PC Jan 11 04:47:05 the question is - did u make a decent effort Jan 11 04:47:13 raster: yeah i have this configure file looking specifically for glLoadIdentity (presumably for identity matrices), but i think i have my GLESv2 binary symlinked to libGL.so.1 :p Jan 11 04:47:14 the root shell ius much less of an issue than the baseband Jan 11 04:47:22 well, if dev mode is a switch you flip then run a terminal, they didn't do much to lock that out Jan 11 04:47:27 'but then root shell isnt the issue for the teclo Jan 11 04:47:30 the baseband is another story, yeah Jan 11 04:47:33 tis the usse for app writers Jan 11 04:47:45 not to mention security virus-wise etc. Jan 11 04:47:58 and honestly I don't know if anyone has done any real analysis of the pre's baseband Jan 11 04:48:07 what is baseband Jan 11 04:48:18 it looks like you can just reflash it at will, but is it crypto locked, etc Jan 11 04:48:19 ? Jan 11 04:48:20 centered around 0Hz Jan 11 04:49:13 CoolMatty: in practice in mobile phones it refers to the radio system processor etc Jan 11 04:49:38 ah Jan 11 04:49:50 basically the modem .. Jan 11 04:49:51 segregated into a seperate black box with some serial inputs from the host CPU generally Jan 11 04:50:01 connected to digital on one side, and analog/rf on the other side Jan 11 04:50:08 the pre's communication (at least in the gsm phones) is binary rather than the at protocal that is so much easier to reverse. The German's have been pretty much stuck for several weeks. Jan 11 04:50:09 so the CPU doesn't usually get total control over it, more like a limited API Jan 11 04:50:44 so, instead of communicating via a normal at command set, it's a complex binary command set, and reverse engineering has been -- hard. Jan 11 04:51:42 Rick_work: hopefully they're reverse engineering the palm daemons that talk to it and not just the bits on the bus Jan 11 04:52:05 talk to the German's you've not heard everything I've managed to understand by listening in. Jan 11 04:52:06 Or talk to rod. Jan 11 04:52:49 Anyone else have problems sync'ing google contacts over evdo but it works fine in wifi? When I try to connect via evdo it always says my password is wrong :S Jan 11 04:52:51 destinal: freesmartphone.org is doing true protocol reverse engineering Jan 11 04:53:37 rwhitby: interesting.. certain algorithms are a lot easier understood from binaries that implement them than watching just the comms Jan 11 04:54:16 Toaster23 go into accounts and make sure you don't have two google accounts pointing at the same username. Jan 11 04:55:47 Rick_work: I only have google and palm profile Jan 11 04:55:50 rwhitby: wish I could help, it's likely the GSM and CDMA modems are totally different Jan 11 04:56:07 Toaster23 weird. Jan 11 04:56:30 yeah works fine on wifi Jan 11 04:56:35 WAIT, doesnt MapleStory use lua? Jan 11 05:03:36 zsoc: were you ever able to test your idea of blitting to the luna desktop? Jan 11 05:04:34 cryptk|work: technically the idea was creating an alpha _surface_ and blitting to it, but no i never got to try Jan 11 05:04:41 I have a feel the answer is "Luna doesn't support it" Jan 11 05:04:46 s/feel/feeling Jan 11 05:04:47 hahaha Jan 11 05:09:08 So wormux is 70mb. That's probably an obstacle for preware distribution until we have a C ipkgservice eh? Jan 11 05:10:40 zsoc: you mean because we don't display download progress now Jan 11 05:10:41 ? Jan 11 05:10:46 destinal: right Jan 11 05:11:27 mmmm Jan 11 05:11:40 PuffTheMagic: go Jan 11 05:11:45 go what Jan 11 05:11:58 go... crazy?!? Jan 11 05:12:12 don't mind if I DO!!! eritgerwfq0938y4u89eri0e[ojiqwefqwrf Jan 11 05:12:16 i was thinking about the new C ipkgservice + preware plugin/sdl app combo Jan 11 05:12:27 if we could make it an sdl app Jan 11 05:12:39 3D preware? Jan 11 05:12:39 Jan 11 05:12:39 then we can install it to /media/cryptofs Jan 11 05:12:45 which means it would be persistant Jan 11 05:12:48 across doctoring Jan 11 05:12:53 whcih means no need to reinstall Jan 11 05:12:59 that would be nice Jan 11 05:13:02 browse apps like boxes on a shelf :P Jan 11 05:13:06 that would be nice Jan 11 05:13:24 so it appears signing into gmail via the webbrowser fixed that. Jan 11 05:14:04 Anyone know what Makeobj is? Jan 11 05:14:20 destinal: i was there with ya buddy Jan 11 05:14:37 PuffTheMagic: go Jan 11 05:16:21 go what Jan 11 05:16:42 go make it happen Jan 11 05:17:01 With the k4p741n? Jan 11 05:17:07 * zsoc facepalms Jan 11 05:17:48 * k4p741nkrunch goes back to watching hulu Jan 11 05:17:59 * cryptk|work cheers Jan 11 05:18:29 someone needs to finish up the scummVM port so I can play the secret of monkey ilsand on my pre lol Jan 11 05:18:43 Toaster23: go Jan 11 05:18:50 screw monkey island... day of the tenticle!!! Jan 11 05:18:59 I have a copy of DotT at home! Jan 11 05:19:22 it just needs keybindings lol Jan 11 05:19:31 I dont know enough about sdl and the pre stuff to do it. Jan 11 05:19:34 or I would Jan 11 05:19:53 Toaster23: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/C/ <- start there Jan 11 05:20:26 I know C well most of it Jan 11 05:20:43 I'd like to think I am a mid level C coder Jan 11 05:20:58 Toaster23: then you're almost there, next --> http://www.libsdl.org/tutorials.php Jan 11 05:20:59 go Jan 11 05:22:14 libsdl-vnc now in preware/cross-compile.git Jan 11 05:22:15 hmm looks pretty easy Jan 11 05:23:41 Toaster23: it is _very_ easy. now get the working version of scummVM and fix the keybindings (which i think are the only issue) Jan 11 05:23:59 alrighty I'm heading to bed. I expect to see some awesome developments when I wake up :p Jan 11 05:24:05 oh wait, that happens anyway Jan 11 05:24:26 too kind sir Jan 11 05:24:38 so, webOS front-end to libsdl-vnc, or SDL front-end ... Jan 11 05:24:54 whatever gives best performance Jan 11 05:24:57 hmm - webOS app that can open multiple VNC SDL windows ... Jan 11 05:25:04 rwhitby: er... how would a webos one even work? Jan 11 05:25:05 Where can I download the latest scummVM source? Jan 11 05:25:07 npapi? Jan 11 05:25:27 zsoc: a vnc service that forks an SDL app Jan 11 05:25:36 Toaster23: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:ScummVM Jan 11 05:25:56 rwhitby: it can er... somehow get an image to a mojo card? i don't get it Jan 11 05:26:00 oh also I should switch to ubuntu in vitrual box Jan 11 05:26:07 zsoc: libsdl-vnc Jan 11 05:26:13 since I imagine it will be easier to compile in linux Jan 11 05:26:14 rwhitby: right, that's sdl Jan 11 05:26:21 obviously rwhitby in his coding genius would write a method for converting the host VNC OS image into an HTML/CSS/JS code. duh. Jan 11 05:26:22 Toaster23: yes Jan 11 05:26:31 zsoc: yep, that opens a card each time you call it, right? Jan 11 05:26:45 (just like we have multiple doom cards open) Jan 11 05:26:47 rwhitby: OH i see what you're saying, you mean _just_ the front end, either way it's sdl Jan 11 05:26:50 I was confused lol Jan 11 05:27:15 rwhitby: People are generally more comfortable with mojo widgets, wouldn't hurt to have a "home" screen for it Jan 11 05:27:28 heyooo Jan 11 05:27:28 is there any chance we'll see remote desktop client as well? I actually don't use VNC much :/ Jan 11 05:27:37 and remote desktop has better network performance :/ Jan 11 05:27:46 so just like wIRC opens cards for channels, the vnc webOS app would call the service to open multiple SDL vnc windows Jan 11 05:27:46 CoolMatty: is it open source? Jan 11 05:27:52 rwhitby: sounds good to me Jan 11 05:28:01 there are linux clients for it zsoc, so maybe? Jan 11 05:28:38 http://www.soulsphere.org/hacks/rdesktop-sdl/ Jan 11 05:29:02 yeah, the stuff zonyl was working on, i checked it out Jan 11 05:29:15 awesome, an incomplete port of an old version! sounds promising :p Jan 11 05:29:27 CoolMatty: apparently it works Jan 11 05:29:33 er, well zonyl _fixed_ it Jan 11 05:29:46 zonyl needs to clean it up and preware it then :D Jan 11 05:30:08 zsoc: zonyl did the vnc stuff that I just checked in Jan 11 05:31:08 yep yep Jan 11 05:37:11 dtzWill: are you still working on nanoGL? Jan 11 05:38:00 ali1: i am not. haven't entirely given up; it worked with the tests i threw at ti, i'm not convinced quake2 is failing for other reasons. Jan 11 05:38:16 ali1: but it's hard ot test since i have to write my own that test the parts that quake uses hehe Jan 11 05:38:48 dtzWill: yeah. all day i was kept messing with the old q3a code to make sure if it was nanoGL or something else Jan 11 05:39:33 ali1: so you have a version that uses nanoGL? even if ti doens't render? Jan 11 05:40:05 the version thats up on GIT right now is pretty much the mameo port Jan 11 05:40:19 i'm still thinking about nano though Jan 11 05:40:41 (before the the new version it was using nanoGL) Jan 11 05:41:12 i just like the idea of a library to help people with porting opengl apps Jan 11 05:42:07 although http://code.google.com/p/gl-wes-v2/ sounds better for that Jan 11 05:43:15 dbg not in busybox? Jan 11 05:43:24 hey I was wondering if anyone could tell me where the pictures that get pulled down from facebook,google, etc get stored Jan 11 05:44:05 danstah: sounds like #webos territory, but i think it's /media/internal/downloads or somewhere similar Jan 11 05:44:52 zsoc thanks Jan 11 05:45:26 ali1: aboslutely. Jan 11 05:45:35 ali1: if you get nano into a library i'll commit my changes Jan 11 05:45:39 ali1: i feel stupid sitting on them Jan 11 05:45:52 yeah that's what i was thinking of doing Jan 11 05:46:28 should i go with the webos git or upload them somewhere else for now? Jan 11 05:46:56 ali1: i think webos, maybe ask rwhitby where--need to bug him when creating a new thing anyway. Jan 11 05:47:08 rwhitby: we need to bug you Jan 11 05:47:53 ali1: just put it in cross-compile/nonworking for the moment Jan 11 05:48:05 oh right! Jan 11 05:48:17 (i.e. a makefile which downloads the source, patches it and builds it Jan 11 05:48:32 it you want to commit actual source code, we'd make a new repo) Jan 11 05:48:48 oh i need to commit actual code Jan 11 05:49:01 anyone got an rdesktop server near their Pre ? Jan 11 05:49:06 i want to get dtzWill's changes into one thing Jan 11 05:49:15 ali1: repo name? Jan 11 05:49:28 libraries/nanoGL ? Jan 11 05:49:33 rwhitby: if you would like I can install one once I get home that you can use for testing Jan 11 05:49:43 as long as there is one that runs on linux Jan 11 05:49:52 wel and we'd be making more changes as needed Jan 11 05:50:00 yup that too Jan 11 05:50:07 i think we could implement more of openGL than they did. Jan 11 05:50:21 ali1: i think it was tuxracer... whoever ported that has a fairly complete GLimp from iphone Jan 11 05:50:29 ali1: that the tuxracer port used haha, it has qgl* Jan 11 05:50:41 ali1: done Jan 11 05:50:42 oh haha Jan 11 05:50:43 ali1: it looked more complete than nanoGL if not as useful for general opengl porting Jan 11 05:50:50 rwhitby: thanksssss Jan 11 05:50:54 ali1: so idk, but just a thoguht Jan 11 05:50:55 rwhitby: ty Jan 11 05:51:02 rwhitby: and are you looking for any kind of remote desktop server, or a specific one? if you want jsut any remote desktop server theen I can grab one easily Jan 11 05:51:15 dtzWill: lets take a look at that later on Jan 11 05:51:29 let me set up a makefile for this Jan 11 05:51:33 cryptk|work: dunno, I just compiled this app and want to see whether it will connect to something Jan 11 05:52:08 ahh... it would have to wait till I get off work Jan 11 05:53:02 btw rwhitby Jack87 came up with a good idea for an app... a GUI front end that can either start an FTP server, or wget from an ftp server... to enable pre to pre file transfers Jan 11 05:53:05 ali1: sounds good. ping me when you have it up. or i can do it later, but you seem to be on it :) Jan 11 05:53:48 dtzWill: it won't take long Jan 11 05:54:39 btw, I am wanting to learn some programming. The two languages I am interested in are C and C++.... any recommendations? Jan 11 05:54:51 recommendations as to which of those two to learn Jan 11 05:55:00 cryptk|work: C first Jan 11 05:55:26 any particular reason? Jan 11 05:55:30 they are realtivly the same but yeah C first Jan 11 05:55:30 i'd say C because it helps to be that low level for learning purposes Jan 11 05:55:33 yeah Jan 11 05:55:43 and then with C++ you'll learn more about classes and stuff Jan 11 05:56:02 and then from there java is just a stones throw Jan 11 05:56:10 i tend to go with C more Jan 11 05:56:18 than C++ Jan 11 05:56:30 although i have a lot of exp with java Jan 11 05:56:31 zsoc I'd go to C# instead of java but pre doesnst have C# support lol Jan 11 05:56:32 well, everyone seems to agree so I am not one to argue Jan 11 05:57:12 mono could probably be ported to pre Jan 11 05:57:15 it'd be neat Jan 11 05:57:21 wouldn't C# be relatively easy to learn once I have C and C++ down? Jan 11 05:57:43 the structures of the languages are pretty similar as far as I have been able to tell Jan 11 05:57:51 yeah they are all pretty similar Jan 11 05:57:53 if you know C++, C# will definately be easy to pick up Jan 11 05:58:14 nobody knows c++ lol Jan 11 05:58:21 even java is close to C# or atleast I heard it is, i have never used it though. Jan 11 05:58:49 vb.net is horrible though Jan 11 05:58:55 (everyone has their own subset of the craziness that is the c++ spec that they just CALL 'c++' and use) Jan 11 05:58:56 or well imo it is. Jan 11 05:58:58 haha Jan 11 05:59:16 bad programming practices it teaches you. Jan 11 05:59:33 rdesktop-sdl is now in preware/cross-compile.git/nonworking ... Jan 11 05:59:41 i'm at the point where languages are easy to pick up Jan 11 05:59:46 it compiles and runs - but I have nothing to test it against Jan 11 05:59:55 so i don't really care much about what language i work in Jan 11 06:00:26 dtzWill: i'm gonna make an examples dir for examples i guess Jan 11 06:02:14 So, is everyone here running the alpha test version of Preware? Jan 11 06:02:53 rwhitby: yep Jan 11 06:03:52 am I weird for wanting to be able to turn off chat/IM via the device menu? Jan 11 06:04:04 on/off Jan 11 06:04:19 no. Jan 11 06:04:24 I'm not running the alpha test, but then again, I don't really matter that much, lol Jan 11 06:04:30 sometimes i'd like to just turn off IM Jan 11 06:04:45 or even the "Available" button be on both conversations/buddies list page Jan 11 06:04:58 ali1: sounds good. Jan 11 06:04:59 feels clunky in just the b uddies page =[ Jan 11 06:05:00 99% of the time my phone is not signed into IM... Jan 11 06:05:24 I sometimes sign in to see if someone is online, then I sign back out... battery lasts longer that way Jan 11 06:05:52 I'm happy with battery life with smart reflex patch, I just have wifi/im/bluetooth on all the time now Jan 11 06:07:57 last time I tried the smartreflex patches it resulted in a no-boot... had to doctor to get the phone back Jan 11 06:08:10 so I haven't tried them since... have they fixed the bugs with them? Jan 11 06:08:19 or did I just have a fluke? Jan 11 06:08:28 depends on how long ago that last time you tried it was Jan 11 06:08:36 cryptk|work: they're unstable Jan 11 06:08:37 when they first came out Jan 11 06:08:46 when P|C had the article on them Jan 11 06:08:46 I tried it early on (ie: July 09) and had similar issues Jan 11 06:09:00 but it has worked nicely for me recently Jan 11 06:09:03 lots more people are having better luck recently, but that could just be self-selection Jan 11 06:09:10 rwhitby: I know they are unstable, that is why I backed up before I tried Jan 11 06:09:32 same phone too, phone that crashed with smartreflex in July of last year works just fine with it now Jan 11 06:09:52 I installed it with the full knowledge that it would have one of three outcomes.... 1) better battery life 2)no change 3)doctor, lol Jan 11 06:10:07 psykoz: yeah, I'd say it is 80% stable now, %50 before. Jan 11 06:10:08 I still have no reason to believe smartreflex works without rebuilding the kernel Jan 11 06:10:20 s/works/works correctly Jan 11 06:10:24 batterymonitor? Jan 11 06:10:34 rwhitby, aye, it seems much better than before Jan 11 06:10:44 zsoc: what is your definition of "works correctly" Jan 11 06:10:54 cryptk|work: as advertised Jan 11 06:10:57 cryptk|work, idle I burn ~1.75%/hr with everything enabled under smart reflex Jan 11 06:11:01 if by that you mean the phone drains the battery slower... batterymonitor will show you that Jan 11 06:11:27 psykoz: what do you mean everything enabled... it has options now? Jan 11 06:11:36 when i tried it, it was just a straight patch Jan 11 06:11:45 cryptk|work, no, everything enable don my pre, IM, gps, bluetooth, etc Jan 11 06:11:50 wifi Jan 11 06:11:58 ahh, I gotcha Jan 11 06:12:14 I've had my phone idle without a charge for 2 + days Jan 11 06:14:12 so in C, is the benefiet to the different data types mainly memory usage? Jan 11 06:14:32 ? Jan 11 06:14:36 C vs ? Jan 11 06:14:41 like using a short int instead of a double... as long as a short into is all you need Jan 11 06:14:55 just the benefit of using one data type vs. a different one Jan 11 06:14:56 variables you mean? Jan 11 06:15:04 yeah Jan 11 06:15:06 rwhitby: ping Jan 11 06:15:07 no so much benefits as necessities Jan 11 06:15:16 ints default to long i believe anyway Jan 11 06:15:22 yes, they do Jan 11 06:15:24 dBsooner: syn|ack Jan 11 06:15:30 rwhitby: User side is done. Jan 11 06:15:40 http://webos-patches.dbsooner.com/ Jan 11 06:15:51 but it seems to me that if you make everything a double unnecessarially it would just result in the program using more memory than it really needs... Jan 11 06:15:54 Submit new, submit update and browse. Jan 11 06:16:37 cryptk|work: not really, and as you'll learn, there's plently of places to cut the fat, forcing all your ints "short" isn't one of them imo :p your processor handles a RIDICULOUS amount of requsts, even in a cellphone. Jan 11 06:17:04 Not to mention Jan 11 06:17:10 what language are you saying doesn't have shorts? Jan 11 06:17:46 also, short might not have proper allignment, which means you'll save memory at the expense of performance. Jan 11 06:17:48 ahh, so really there is no actual reason to not just make everything a double aside from the fact that you don't need to Jan 11 06:18:04 cryptk|work: well, that's sort of why 'int' doesn't default to short :) Jan 11 06:18:09 rwhitby: if you like it, I am going to have the old script page relocate you to the new system. Jan 11 06:18:11 yeah Jan 11 06:18:25 gotcha Jan 11 06:18:27 thx Jan 11 06:19:16 rwhitby: is there a resaon valgrind isn't on optware? Jan 11 06:19:46 rwhitby: i mean has it been tried, but was impractical/impossible/undesireable for some reason? Jan 11 06:19:51 i would love valgrind right now :( Jan 11 06:20:00 don't 32bit processors have to do a bit shift on all s hort variables requiring extra work for them (hence why short was deprecated and int defaulted to long in the 32 bit era) Jan 11 06:20:23 is there a reason why a 1.3.5 pre will not have the cryptofs directory Jan 11 06:20:36 and where would that phone be installing games without it? Jan 11 06:20:42 because you aren't looking for it as root Jan 11 06:20:47 valgrind people are still working on an arm port Jan 11 06:20:52 its not finished yet :( Jan 11 06:20:55 cryptk|work, roger that Jan 11 06:20:56 jack87: only root can see cryptofs Jan 11 06:21:08 not my phone :) Jan 11 06:21:14 haha Jan 11 06:21:16 hints "crypto" Jan 11 06:21:27 ali1: ahhhh of course. kk, ty. Jan 11 06:21:28 jack87: /media/cryptofs ? Jan 11 06:21:34 no biggie, just use novaterm to find it... novaterm is root Jan 11 06:21:39 yes zsoc Jan 11 06:22:17 dBsooner: did you ever finish that shell script Jan 11 06:22:26 oh yeah cryptk|work Jan 11 06:22:28 long ago Jan 11 06:22:33 hows it work? Jan 11 06:22:34 it's already done it's job Jan 11 06:22:37 sweet Jan 11 06:22:41 and will probably never be used again Jan 11 06:22:44 want to see how ugly it is? Jan 11 06:22:49 that was escape hell Jan 11 06:22:51 sure Jan 11 06:22:56 you got it pastebinned? Jan 11 06:23:16 http://webos-patches.dbsooner.com/create-sql.sh Jan 11 06:23:19 what was that sed line again? "s/\'/\\\'/g" something like that, lol Jan 11 06:23:38 just look at the script at all the replacements I did.. Jan 11 06:23:41 it's beautiful Jan 11 06:23:47 in a very ugly way Jan 11 06:24:06 but it spits out: http://webos-patches.dbsooner.com/sql.txt Jan 11 06:24:14 So it did its job Jan 11 06:24:34 that thing is beautiful like a car wreck it beautiful, lol Jan 11 06:24:39 And when I imported the .txt file to mysql.. it had 0 errors and inserted 195 rows Jan 11 06:24:42 s/it/is/ Jan 11 06:24:43 cryptk|work meant: that thing is beautiful like a car wreck is beautiful, lol Jan 11 06:25:06 blah... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Jan 11 06:25:10 too many seds.... Jan 11 06:25:17 IT DID IT'S JOB Jan 11 06:25:18 make... brain... hurt... Jan 11 06:25:24 xD Jan 11 06:25:25 I know, just poking fun Jan 11 06:25:29 dtzWill: probably not tried Jan 11 06:25:39 I said it was ugly as sin.. but did the job. Jan 11 06:25:55 no... it is ugly as SED... but did the job... lol Jan 11 06:26:08 sed is always ugly Jan 11 06:26:14 indeed Jan 11 06:26:14 but when you mix in some awk's and cut's... Jan 11 06:26:15 ;) Jan 11 06:26:16 dBsooner: yeah, put a redirect in Jan 11 06:26:27 I was just abou tto say sed is ugly, but awk is even uglier ;) Jan 11 06:26:42 rwhitby: gotcha--i dind't realize it wasn't already ported to arm. it's such a part of my process i group it with my compiler/debugger. errrr i mean my applications never have memory/thrading issues :):) Jan 11 06:26:45 * dBsooner is about to tweet about there being a new ONLINE browser for WebOS-Patches. Jan 11 06:27:09 online browser for webos patches? o.O Jan 11 06:27:10 * dBsooner is also going to tweet about the new WebOS-Patches Web Portal that allows you to submit an UPDATE to a patch. Jan 11 06:28:38 egaudet Jan 11 06:28:43 egaudet: ping even Jan 11 06:28:51 dBsooner, pong Jan 11 06:29:05 pm Jan 11 06:31:11 is there a way to have a link open preware? Jan 11 06:31:42 kind of like how we can have a link open the app catalog Jan 11 06:32:00 if so, that would be something awesome to add to dBsooner's new page Jan 11 06:32:05 you'd have to register a redirect in the browser somehow Jan 11 06:32:09 being able to send the link for the patch to your phone Jan 11 06:32:28 meh... just an idea Jan 11 06:32:35 cryptk|work: i like how you think Jan 11 06:33:04 * dBsooner ponders how to make a url SMS'd to a device force Preware to open. Jan 11 06:33:08 dBsooner: you have an idea on how to make it work? or are you just having a general appreciation for my idea Jan 11 06:33:26 cryptk|work: Anything is possible. Jan 11 06:33:41 But I don't know how to go about doing it. Jan 11 06:33:48 I have an idea on how to make it work, but it would require come changes to preware and probably the service it runs on Jan 11 06:34:02 well... nvm... Jan 11 06:34:13 you would still have to find a way to hook the URL Jan 11 06:34:42 unless we can somehow create a new 'fake' protocol Jan 11 06:34:50 and find a way to hook all links to that Jan 11 06:35:06 so we could have a preware://file_in_preware Jan 11 06:35:10 a link like that Jan 11 06:35:23 would that be easier to register a redirect for? Jan 11 06:35:58 btw, dBsooner, phenominal work on that page... looks very nice Jan 11 06:36:25 I like the inclusion of different webos versions... but I am guessing that is mainly a function of those versions being in the webos-internals git.... Jan 11 06:37:23 would it be easier to create a link to email yourself the .patch file... the have a way to register that filetype as being opened with preware/ipkgservice and then make it work from there? Jan 11 06:38:05 so you click a link, supply email addy, get the file in your email (on your phone), open it and that makes preware open asking you for permission to install Jan 11 06:38:46 preware installs .ipk packages, not .patch files Jan 11 06:38:46 dBsooner: you could also include a rating/review system on that page Jan 11 06:39:14 cryptk|work: sorry, I am in the middle of writing my redirect.. one sec and I'll reply. :) Jan 11 06:39:23 ok Jan 11 06:39:42 good point oil, but it can install patches that are packaged in ipk files... Jan 11 06:40:09 and if dBsooner's page is puling from the webos-internals git... then it would be sending the ipk files, not patch files Jan 11 06:40:28 the patch git doesn't have ipks in it... Jan 11 06:40:33 ahh Jan 11 06:40:36 oil: have you tested alpha preware? Jan 11 06:40:37 the ipks are created by the autobuilder Jan 11 06:41:04 well, they are hosted somewhere for preware to get to them Jan 11 06:41:10 haven't read up yet.. but just a point of note, I can always send the ipk from the feed itself. Jan 11 06:41:13 grab it and send it Jan 11 06:41:21 but back to finishing this redirect Jan 11 06:41:26 what problem is this trying to solve? Jan 11 06:41:26 the email the link thing would just email the package id, and preware would install that package from the usual feeds. Jan 11 06:41:51 (just like palm does for the web channel) Jan 11 06:42:01 there ya go rwhitby, better idea than mine Jan 11 06:42:07 no .patch or .ipkg file goes anywhere Jan 11 06:42:47 oil, dBsooner made an online patch browser... we are trying to brainstorm a way to send a link for a patch from that page to your phone and make clicking that link open preware to that patch... Jan 11 06:42:57 well... I am trying to brainstorm it... Jan 11 06:43:05 and dBsooner seemed interested also Jan 11 06:43:24 oil: on a completely different topic, what's you input on how price should be displayed in Preware? Jan 11 06:43:32 (for apps from the app catalog feeds) Jan 11 06:43:37 redirect is done Jan 11 06:44:08 rwhitby: as the other items? Jan 11 06:44:22 just another line like the others? Jan 11 06:44:29 why not? Jan 11 06:44:29 no Jan 11 06:44:30 and then some sorting and filtering options? Jan 11 06:44:30 far right Jan 11 06:45:02 egaudet: I think you're thinking of the list page and oil and I are thinking of the details page Jan 11 06:45:16 Oh Jan 11 06:45:23 I agree on the list page, it should just be another option or two on the second line Jan 11 06:45:53 maybe this is the wrong question Jan 11 06:45:56 but... why? Jan 11 06:46:21 price sorting? Jan 11 06:46:25 I think maybe it could start 2-lining titles if needed and use far right for price similar to app cat Jan 11 06:46:26 to save having to hit "install" to see the price Jan 11 06:46:29 i thought preware was for homebrew feedsk Jan 11 06:46:33 not a catalog clone Jan 11 06:46:35 round prices Jan 11 06:46:36 and sort Jan 11 06:46:37 :) Jan 11 06:46:39 wouldn't including the official app catalog feeds in preware just make it take longer to laod? Jan 11 06:46:43 they opened the data, there is going to be hundreds of apps that do that Jan 11 06:46:43 that's my vote Jan 11 06:46:49 oil, it's a everything for webos everyhwere installer :P Jan 11 06:46:55 Preware is the Universal Installer Jan 11 06:46:56 thats not what it was Jan 11 06:47:03 its being changed Jan 11 06:47:10 and homebrew stuff is becoming second class Jan 11 06:47:21 homebrew stuff and app cat stuff are equivalent Jan 11 06:47:25 IMO Jan 11 06:47:25 I am just not looking forward to having to wait even longer for preware to start up because I am having to download even more feeds... Jan 11 06:47:30 an app is an app is an app Jan 11 06:47:35 except some cost money :P Jan 11 06:47:57 what happens once the app catalog gets a few thousand apps... that will be a noticeable impact on preware load times... Jan 11 06:48:08 unless we can choose to turn off the app cat feeds Jan 11 06:48:23 cryptk|work: yep, just disable the feeds Jan 11 06:50:19 dtzWill: sorry that took longer than i though Jan 11 06:50:20 t Jan 11 06:50:32 i tried to make a decent makefile Jan 11 06:51:24 dtzWill: it builds as a shared library so we could just have stuff link to it instead of recompiling everything over and over Jan 11 06:55:22 egaudet: the way I see it is that I go to an app catalog to find an app which has the functionality that i need. Jan 11 06:55:41 I don't care where that app comes from - if it has the functionality I need, then it gets to the second round of selection Jan 11 06:56:02 if it doesn't have the functionality I need, then it is immediately excluded, regardless of price, feed, ratings, reviews. Jan 11 06:56:17 ali1: oh i was doing it shared too Jan 11 06:56:32 Only once I have one or more apps that have the functionality that I need (i.e. discovery phase is over) do I then move to the selection phase. Jan 11 06:56:35 ali1: didn't occur to me to do statically--but i can see why one would Jan 11 06:56:43 in the selection phase, I want to know prices, ratings, reviews, etc. Jan 11 06:57:02 dtzWill: i had no particular reason to statically link it Jan 11 06:57:14 ali1: meh, usual reasons :) Jan 11 06:57:23 heh Jan 11 06:57:35 ali1: i'm neck-deep in gl code, and i wanna finish this b/c i'm making progress Jan 11 06:57:43 but in an hour or two i'll put my stuff in Jan 11 06:57:45 or if i want a break Jan 11 06:57:49 alright Jan 11 06:57:59 i'm going to bed as i have class in the morning Jan 11 06:58:00 ali1: tyvm for throwing it up and making that happen. let's get it useful so people can use it :D Jan 11 06:58:06 no prob Jan 11 06:58:11 ali1: oh sure thing. 'night, ty. :) Jan 11 06:58:20 laters Jan 11 06:58:56 rwhitby:how about another button on the main page that will update feeds for palm apps instead of having the feed on all the time Jan 11 06:59:23 so I got a question on games. What is Palm's review process going to be like for binary submissions? If they aren't allowing type: game in the web app distribution, that means they have some sort of plan. Will Palm require source code and build it themselves? Jan 11 06:59:44 wouldnt that help w/ load times Jan 11 07:00:26 1 step instead of turning the feed on then updating then turning the feed off again Jan 11 07:01:18 that way you only get the feed if you want it this time or the next and so on Jan 11 07:01:31 sslow: that wouldn't be a button on the main page, it would belong more in the app menu right next to "update feeds" Jan 11 07:01:36 if they did it that is Jan 11 07:02:14 i was just thinking of a way to increase load times y know Jan 11 07:02:34 sslow: you mean decrease load times? Jan 11 07:02:41 lol Jan 11 07:02:46 yeah sorry Jan 11 07:02:57 although your name is sslow... maybe you were wanting to increase them, LOL Jan 11 07:03:05 its late and im stupid Jan 11 07:03:10 lol Jan 11 07:03:54 egaudet: they will probably force you to use a 'plugin' and then sandbox your binary Jan 11 07:05:20 zsoc, we already know they are NOT doing that Jan 11 07:05:32 egaudet: how? rick seems to be convinced of it Jan 11 07:05:38 the current games out... Jan 11 07:05:52 egaudet: right, the official PDK isn't out and they aren't taking submissions Jan 11 07:06:06 EA and the game devs said they used the PDK Jan 11 07:06:08 egaudet: he actually went as far as to say the current set up is very temperary, it's in the logs somewhere Jan 11 07:06:14 it's not "out" but this is THE end result Jan 11 07:06:19 I want EA Monopoly Jan 11 07:06:20 :) Jan 11 07:06:22 sweet 3D java script chess controls dont work though :P Jan 11 07:06:27 like some guy at palm wasn't happy about the security implementations but he let it go through just for CES Jan 11 07:06:35 or at least a REAL monopoly game Jan 11 07:06:36 egaudet: what is there now is not the final solution Jan 11 07:06:41 Preopoly is boring now Jan 11 07:07:02 oh shoot 3D javascript cloth demo :O Jan 11 07:07:18 Toaster89: shoot off 3d clothes in javascript? wha? Jan 11 07:07:21 What else could they possibly do Jan 11 07:07:34 hmm idk but it renders really slow Jan 11 07:07:35 egaudet: force you to pick a plugin, and keep you in there Jan 11 07:07:52 npapi style Jan 11 07:08:05 anyway.. it's late... later Jan 11 07:08:25 sdlgnuboy builds, thx to Tag234 Jan 11 07:08:32 I would hope they would let you pick multiple plugins... or choose plugins that weren't written just for your program... kinda library style almost Jan 11 07:08:43 later zsoc|sleep Jan 11 07:09:41 how do you take screen shot again? Jan 11 07:11:08 rwhitby, did you ever get around to looking into lsdiff in optware Jan 11 07:11:33 ah, nope. Jan 11 07:12:13 crap I think I locked it up wtih the raytracer lol Jan 11 07:14:28 :O it worked Jan 11 07:14:32 I'm screening it now Jan 11 07:14:39 any wirc developers here? Jan 11 07:14:50 got a quick question Jan 11 07:14:58 or, hell, frequent wirc users Jan 11 07:15:05 Toaster89: orange + sym + p Jan 11 07:15:16 k thanks I'll have a screen upped in a jiffy Jan 11 07:16:00 Toaster89: raytracer? :D Jan 11 07:17:06 hold on Jan 11 07:18:07 http://img31.imageshack.us/i/browser20101101021711.png/ Jan 11 07:18:52 * dtzWill holds on tightly Jan 11 07:19:00 http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=2145523#post2145523 Jan 11 07:19:09 rwhitby, egaudet: ^^ Jan 11 07:19:13 Toaster89: interseted humm? Jan 11 07:19:41 interested Jan 11 07:20:04 http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/378/browser20101101021711.png Jan 11 07:20:10 http://slimeland.com/raytrace/ Jan 11 07:20:35 dBsooner: don't see a tweet yet ... Jan 11 07:20:40 doing it now Jan 11 07:20:44 I wanted to get my post made Jan 11 07:20:49 so I can create the bit.ly Jan 11 07:21:05 plus I am trying to figure out how to word all that in 140 characters Jan 11 07:21:16 lol Jan 11 07:21:24 "Check this out!: url" Jan 11 07:21:38 dBsooner: you need to change you .sig on PC now too Jan 11 07:21:42 tos90 seconds to render that small box with the flower in it? Jan 11 07:21:52 yep, changing it Jan 11 07:21:56 Yeah its raytraced and stuff though Jan 11 07:21:57 I gotta try out this named pages patch :P Jan 11 07:21:59 Awesome new patch management portal: http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=2145523 Jan 11 07:22:05 means it has nice looking shadows Jan 11 07:22:07 and AA Jan 11 07:22:12 Toaster89: 90 seconds.. not 90 frames per second? Jan 11 07:22:12 and AO Jan 11 07:22:16 yeah 90 seconds Jan 11 07:22:18 its not realtime Jan 11 07:22:26 dBsooner: that's less than 140 Jan 11 07:22:27 no aa in that screenie Jan 11 07:22:33 its like rendering in 3DS max Jan 11 07:22:43 90.... Jan 11 07:22:44 gah Jan 11 07:22:47 Raster it didnt draw the final output correct on the pre. Jan 11 07:22:50 thats insane Jan 11 07:22:59 not really lol Jan 11 07:23:01 its quite fast Jan 11 07:23:04 i'd expect 90fps+ Jan 11 07:23:08 signature updated on PC.net Jan 11 07:23:11 its raytracing in javascript Jan 11 07:23:16 its not going to get that fast Jan 11 07:23:18 well 90fps - or its just not worht it Jan 11 07:23:32 (at the size u rendered i'd be expecting 200-300fps) Jan 11 07:23:32 well obviously its not worth it Jan 11 07:23:39 but its cool to play around with. Jan 11 07:23:54 if you want realtime stuff you have to do it with hardware. Jan 11 07:24:11 Toaster89: no u dont Jan 11 07:24:17 well Jan 11 07:24:25 need for speed graphics you do Jan 11 07:24:37 no u dont Jan 11 07:24:37 :) Jan 11 07:24:42 on the pre? Jan 11 07:25:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pncV4dKOZt0 Jan 11 07:25:17 800x480 Jan 11 07:25:24 not 320x480 (so 2.5x as many pixels) Jan 11 07:25:37 on an soc thats 1/3 tthe speed of the omap3 in the pre Jan 11 07:25:47 gouraud lightsource shaded triangles too Jan 11 07:25:50 not bad Jan 11 07:25:50 with lens flare :) Jan 11 07:25:55 and in software Jan 11 07:26:09 no simd asm either Jan 11 07:26:23 so.... i dont need hw :) Jan 11 07:26:42 hardware is better though imo Jan 11 07:26:48 not necessarily Jan 11 07:26:53 depends what u are doing Jan 11 07:26:59 pity it can only display blue and black though .... Jan 11 07:27:01 I love my shaders lol Jan 11 07:27:59 there.. tweeted rwhitby Jan 11 07:37:57 dBsooner: nice Jan 11 07:38:20 now to patch preware to not popup the ok button more than once Jan 11 07:38:46 dbsooner: looks good Jan 11 07:39:47 Guys, can i be a beta tester for the upcoming preware version? Jan 11 07:40:50 Senk: last three lines on the wiki page Jan 11 07:41:07 Robi_: alpha version doesn't pop up at all Jan 11 07:41:15 "go home townie"? Jan 11 07:42:13 rwhitby: How can i do it if im on a Mac? Jan 11 07:42:34 Senk: Mac is actually easiest. Install the Palm SDK. novaterm. run those three lines Jan 11 07:42:44 * rwhitby uses a Mac Jan 11 07:42:51 Thanks guys. I just feel like I am going to get bashed for it being a little "html 1.0" like. Jan 11 07:43:05 That's why I tried to explain in my post that I wasn't going for prettiness. Jan 11 07:43:13 rwhitby: Do i need the palm SDK or can i just install the novacom? Jan 11 07:43:56 better functional first Jan 11 07:44:47 rwhitby: doesn't seem like it, I used dDEMO earlier when my phone lost the palm profile connection again Jan 11 07:45:16 rwhitby: i need to install VirtualBox also? Jan 11 07:45:57 woops, gtg Jan 11 07:48:08 Senk: only if you want to run the emulator Jan 11 07:48:47 Robi_: what's dDEMO? the last three lines on the wiki page don't say that. Jan 11 07:52:09 dDEMO is my bit.ly Jan 11 07:52:29 both dDEMO and preware-bootstrap are bit.ly's .. going to the same thing. Jan 11 07:56:35 probably needs to get the latest version of that script for 1.3.5 then Jan 11 07:58:58 yeah.. that's what I am thinking. Jan 11 07:59:24 * dBsooner can't figure out why @webosinternals retweets don't show up on his timeline. Jan 11 07:59:51 hey, I know on the wiki somewhere is info on how to change dropbear from Wifi only to evdo and wifi... but I can't find it... any ideas? Jan 11 08:00:44 dropbear? Jan 11 08:00:46 * dBsooner pukes. Jan 11 08:01:07 edit the startup script Jan 11 08:01:25 i think its /etc/event.d/optware-dropbear Jan 11 08:01:38 in there it should be commented what to do Jan 11 08:02:04 or whatever ssh server is being used currently if it isn't dropbear Jan 11 08:02:55 look at your startup scripts in /etc/event.d Jan 11 08:03:02 * egaudet goes to bed Jan 11 08:04:21 yep, looks like dropbear, and it is in there Jan 11 08:05:18 edit it Jan 11 08:05:35 inside the file you'll see a comment that tells you what to change Jan 11 08:05:40 oh, it isn't for my pre, mine was already set that way Jan 11 08:05:43 yep, I found it Jan 11 08:05:46 :) Jan 11 08:05:54 [02:04] yep, looks like dropbear, and it is in there Jan 11 08:05:57 lol Jan 11 08:06:08 rwhitby: thank's for semi-defending me in that pm from Craig. Jan 11 08:06:12 dBsooner: any luck on that "click a link to send patch to phone" idea Jan 11 08:06:27 cryptk|work: I'll think about it in the shower in the am. Jan 11 08:07:57 woah... TMI man... TMI Jan 11 08:08:05 I don't need to know about what you do in the shower, lol Jan 11 08:10:29 it is the only room in the house with a drain in the floor... Jan 11 08:12:17 rwhitby: you around? Jan 11 08:12:58 jacques: yep Jan 11 08:13:04 oil: that it is Jan 11 08:13:13 cryptk|work: All my good ideas come from the shower. Jan 11 08:13:13 rwhitby: I think I might have messed something in git Jan 11 08:13:20 cryptk|work: I thought everyone was that way. Jan 11 08:13:36 jacques: you can't break git Jan 11 08:13:40 haha, my best ideas come while I am asleep Jan 11 08:13:48 jacques: you can always reset it back to a previous commit Jan 11 08:13:49 ;) Jan 11 08:13:57 jacques: download.mk ? Jan 11 08:13:58 my brain works better when me being consious isn't getting in the way evidentally, lol Jan 11 08:13:59 I was just trying to commit libGLUES_CM but there is some sdlgnuboy stuff in there Jan 11 08:14:09 jacques: yep, I just added that Jan 11 08:14:24 I tried to commit two files, and it gave some fast-forward error Jan 11 08:14:29 git pull first Jan 11 08:14:31 so I pulled, then did the commit again Jan 11 08:14:48 but now it has a message about merging master Jan 11 08:14:58 it doesn't look quite right - my commit is in there but so is a sdlgnuboy thing Jan 11 08:15:01 ok, when I get that, here's what I do. Jan 11 08:15:10 1) copy out the files you want to keep to another area Jan 11 08:15:12 has anyone here attempted to compile visualboyadvance on the pre with SDL now? Jan 11 08:15:16 2) delete the repo and re-clone Jan 11 08:15:24 3) copy the files back in and commit Jan 11 08:15:42 yokken: dtzWill is working on it Jan 11 08:15:48 rwhitby: shall I do that now? what about the commit that's in there? Jan 11 08:16:04 jacques: it will be gone, unless you've pushed it Jan 11 08:16:07 also for some reason i can't login via ssh... how would i go about making a new user/changing the password for my non-root account? Jan 11 08:16:13 jacques: you commit it again Jan 11 08:16:25 rwhitby: I did push it Jan 11 08:16:31 jacques: did it stick? Jan 11 08:17:03 yes, but there is a sdlgnuboy thing in *my* commit too - that's what looks wrong Jan 11 08:18:12 oh wait, my commit is there ... Jan 11 08:18:28 but what is this: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=preware/cross-compile.git;a=commit;h=2ae596989b0b108b722d6c5d39e985df05b2b612 Jan 11 08:19:50 well I am going to bed. Jan 11 08:20:11 yokken: as root do passwd USERNAME Jan 11 08:20:23 when lines of code start to look like little squigly lines.. you know it's time to quit. Jan 11 08:20:25 then it will prompt you for the new password for that user Jan 11 08:20:37 dBsooner: that's just perl Jan 11 08:21:13 Welp.. dBsooner.... OUT! Jan 11 08:22:21 jacques: that's just the merge of the two independent changes we did Jan 11 08:22:22 http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=preware/cross-compile.git;a=commitdiff;h=2ae596989b0b108b722d6c5d39e985df05b2b612 Jan 11 08:22:41 rwhitby: OK forgive my ignorance of this aspect of git :-\ Jan 11 08:23:05 I use it as single user only :-) Jan 11 08:23:36 here's a hilarious thread: http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/223944-palm-pre-plus-512mb-ram-no-ways-pls-read.html Jan 11 08:23:56 I start posting on page 3 :-) Jan 11 08:24:08 rwhitby: so GLUES downloads svn r51, patches it, builds libGLUES_CM.so - now I guess I need to stage it, along with the relevant header files ... Jan 11 08:24:16 yep Jan 11 08:24:45 jacques: we have sdlgnuboy building now, thanks to Tag234 and Garrett92C Jan 11 08:25:06 rwhitby: nice! I'll have to check that out Jan 11 08:25:35 * oil googles gameboy roms? Jan 11 08:25:38 jacques: there's a start-gnuboy.sh script with required command line args - we just need to package that up Jan 11 08:25:56 cryptk|work: looks like my user disappeared lawl Jan 11 08:26:17 i'm also very excited for a stable, fast sdugnuboy Jan 11 08:26:37 rwhitby: so in addition to building, sdlgnuboy runs ? Jan 11 08:26:46 jacques: dunno, I have no rom Jan 11 08:26:47 apparently Jan 11 08:27:02 i just copied stuff from the optware bootstrap to make a user.sh script Jan 11 08:27:02 haha Jan 11 08:27:06 what roms does it play ? gbc gba ? Jan 11 08:27:13 Tag234: ? Jan 11 08:27:22 gbc Jan 11 08:27:34 uhh how do i do ctrl-c in Terminal on pre Jan 11 08:27:44 orange+space? Jan 11 08:27:51 yokken: i actually just am finishing adding a linux opengl renderer to vba Jan 11 08:27:54 yokken: so gbc only ? Jan 11 08:27:54 is ctrl, i believe Jan 11 08:28:02 yes gbc only i believe Jan 11 08:28:03 yokken: (it didnt' suport it before) so it's even better than what sdl gives you Jan 11 08:28:06 :D:D Jan 11 08:28:09 does a rar file save the file permissions? Jan 11 08:28:16 I know tar does, I know zip does not Jan 11 08:28:17 dtzWill: hell yes Jan 11 08:28:19 what about rar Jan 11 08:28:30 how's sdlgnuboy coming along? :) Jan 11 08:28:35 oh it's built sweet Jan 11 08:28:37 * dtzWill checks it out Jan 11 08:28:54 dtzWill: in cross-compile/nonworking, but it may well be working Jan 11 08:29:30 rwhitby: ty Jan 11 08:29:31 sym-c is ctrl-c Jan 11 08:29:33 fucking router Jan 11 08:31:28 YES i got into my pre finally Jan 11 08:31:41 ITTTTTTT WORKKKKKKKKKKKKED Jan 11 08:31:56 yokken: what worked? Jan 11 08:32:03 i made a user and gave it sudo privs Jan 11 08:32:14 it disappeared or SOMETHING happened so i used the optware bootstrap to fix it Jan 11 08:32:50 just c/p the user and sudo part Jan 11 08:33:51 dtzWill: when will the VBA be ready you think? Jan 11 08:34:04 yokken: when i'm done :D haha :P Jan 11 08:34:26 yokken: sorry, not ETA yet. its' a WIP. initially just going to support gb/gbc but hopefully support them WELL. Jan 11 08:34:42 okay, so no gba support? Jan 11 08:34:45 yokken: so we'll see Jan 11 08:34:53 yokken: well it'll work just be slow Jan 11 08:34:57 * rwhitby bbl Jan 11 08:34:59 i mean you built quake so i have faith in you Jan 11 08:35:01 l8r rwhitby Jan 11 08:35:19 yokken: i think the first release will be without gba, idk, we'll see how well i can opt for arm :D Jan 11 08:35:35 let's go omap3! Jan 11 08:35:41 u can do eet Jan 11 08:35:55 so like, how are you compiling it? Jan 11 08:36:49 lol no C compiler on the pre... no native compiling for me i guess Jan 11 08:37:30 do i have to install gcc/g++ on my pre in order to compile native code? Jan 11 08:37:46 or do i just have to install ubuntu in a virtual machine and compile it there? Jan 11 08:38:10 yokken: check the wiki. there's a cross-compiling toolchain, and we've all been working on creating a nice 'sdk'/'pdk' that works rather well Jan 11 08:38:36 slick Jan 11 08:38:38 thanks Jan 11 08:39:12 haha so i DO have to install ubuntu... perfect Jan 11 08:39:48 yokken: they DO make a windows toolchain.. haha Jan 11 08:39:51 yokken: err i think they do Jan 11 08:40:03 i'm on a mac Jan 11 08:40:11 ;) Jan 11 08:40:30 i just don't have apt-get Jan 11 08:41:57 dtzWill: am i going to want amd64 or i386? Jan 11 08:42:16 desktop, server, or alternate? Jan 11 08:44:25 rwhitby: I am running the preware alpha now... are there plans to be able to turn the official palm feeds on and off? Jan 11 08:44:43 yokken: do you have a 64 bit processor? Jan 11 08:44:55 or a 32 bit Jan 11 08:44:59 cryptk|work: feed management, set them to off Jan 11 08:45:07 64, late 2008 mbp Jan 11 08:45:12 snow leopard Jan 11 08:45:32 get amd64 desktop Jan 11 08:45:37 FFFFFFFFFF Jan 11 08:45:41 why Jan 11 08:45:44 are you running a RAID array or anything? Jan 11 08:45:53 if i'm doing it in virtualbox Jan 11 08:45:54 you can do i386 also Jan 11 08:46:00 it doesn't matter then Jan 11 08:46:06 if it is in VB it doesn't matter Jan 11 08:46:09 aight Jan 11 08:46:18 get i386 actually Jan 11 08:46:27 will cause less headache compiling for the pre Jan 11 08:46:28 though i found optware cross compilation, if i do that can i compile natively on my mac? Jan 11 08:46:35 i386 desktop edition Jan 11 08:46:45 i got about 11 mins until ubuntu is done downloading Jan 11 08:46:48 yes Jan 11 08:46:55 <3 my internet... college internet would be even faster Jan 11 08:46:57 that is the point of cross compiling Jan 11 08:47:04 i c. Jan 11 08:47:05 you will be compiling on one system, for a different one Jan 11 08:48:22 i understand Jan 11 08:48:26 also the optware broke Jan 11 08:48:33 it couldn't make a directory or something Jan 11 08:48:47 looks like a stupid error to me Jan 11 08:49:26 I don't know much about that Jan 11 08:49:59 haha i fixed it by manually getting a tar file and xvf'ing it Jan 11 08:50:06 kickass Jan 11 08:50:11 oil: the only things that show up in the catalog are the things in the palm-catalog feed right? not the palm-beta or palm-web? Jan 11 08:50:43 oh wow, i missed those question about sdlgnuboy way up there: it runs and plays .gb and .gbc roms. key bindings WASD, GH and KL. Jan 11 08:52:31 tag234! you're here! Jan 11 08:52:45 thanks Tag234 Jan 11 08:52:46 you rock Jan 11 08:53:17 :D thankyou Jan 11 08:53:34 OHSHIi didn't have a game in the folder and gnuboy froze my pre Jan 11 08:53:37 * yokken claps Jan 11 08:53:42 * yokken facepalms Jan 11 08:53:52 testing to see if just luna broke Jan 11 08:54:06 yep lol Jan 11 08:54:49 >.< when i load without a game it quickly opens then closes usually, but sometimes itll freeze my pre if i have it playing something and then go to card view or another app and then try and go back to gnuboy Jan 11 08:55:22 and sometimes itll just start playing the rom again as if it were paused ~_~ Jan 11 08:55:56 hopefully theres some easy fix to solve that, theres still alot that needs to be done with it. Jan 11 08:56:15 ubuntu done downloading Jan 11 08:56:24 * Tag234 sleeps Jan 11 08:57:14 night dude, thanks so much for the work Jan 11 08:57:30 meh ubuntu... i have ubunthree Jan 11 08:57:43 lol Jan 11 08:57:53 ubuntu should install quickly :) i hate linux. Jan 11 08:58:10 I can install centos faster Jan 11 08:58:13 i bet Jan 11 08:58:35 hay guise let's use a server os for a desktop so we can limit ourselves and then brag about it Jan 11 08:59:17 I used it for a long time as a desktop before OSX Jan 11 08:59:23 but that was the 90s. heh Jan 11 08:59:34 os x... :) Jan 11 08:59:51 on osx i can pop up a terminal and do the same stuff and then go back to a nice GUI Jan 11 08:59:59 exactly Jan 11 09:00:02 that's why i love it Jan 11 09:00:09 i never use my pc :( Jan 11 09:00:44 ubuntu certainly has changed Jan 11 09:00:53 more complicated installer, i like it Jan 11 09:04:01 are you installing it in a virtual machine? cause there are some pre-installed vm images you can get Jan 11 09:04:59 i am Jan 11 09:05:01 virtualbox Jan 11 09:05:06 but it's going pretty quick Jan 11 09:05:09 over 80% Jan 11 09:08:42 whee done installing Jan 11 09:09:38 yokken: joshua ubuntu has a very nice GUI now Jan 11 09:09:45 especially if you enable compiz Jan 11 09:09:57 one of the nicest GUI's of any OS I have seen Jan 11 09:10:13 it's running postinstalls Jan 11 09:10:28 I don't know about that. It might have some cool visual effects but usability wise its nothing special Jan 11 09:11:10 I find the GUI very useable Jan 11 09:11:17 but I do prefer the command line Jan 11 09:11:23 but that is just a personal prefrence Jan 11 09:11:32 for alot of the stuff that I do, the command line is faster Jan 11 09:11:47 that and I don't like Apple Jan 11 09:12:15 I kinda wish they would focus more on the computers than the damn phones and ipods. heh Jan 11 09:13:49 i want the i5 and new nvidia shit in the next mbp Jan 11 09:14:07 physical keyboard, 5mp camera with 720p 30fps video on next iphone Jan 11 09:14:10 and i'll get it Jan 11 09:14:17 I like my PC cause I can put whatever the hell I want in it... Jan 11 09:14:38 yeah, i am waiting for the next big upgrade so I can buy a new laptop. My current macbook pro has the worst intel SATA chipset in it. It keeps choking randomly on basic stuff Jan 11 09:14:46 which mbp is it Jan 11 09:15:03 don't you say MacBookPro3,1 Jan 11 09:15:05 lol Jan 11 09:15:08 I bought it almost 3 years ago Jan 11 09:15:10 ah Jan 11 09:15:17 the new unibody ones are nice, take it from me Jan 11 09:15:21 hrm i forget the command to check Jan 11 09:15:26 my wife has a unibody Jan 11 09:16:05 ooh, wife Jan 11 09:16:43 Model Identifier: MacBookPro2,2 Jan 11 09:17:23 i had it serviced a couple months ago and they replaced the whole top case and keyboard, ram and battery and I put a new OS install and it goes back to running like crap but at least it boots now Jan 11 09:17:31 how'd you do that Jan 11 09:17:55 yokken: I meant she has a unibody mbp, lol Jan 11 09:19:21 the thing wasn't booting so I take it to the fruit stand. They see some wear on the top and say "thats normal wear, we'll replace that". I wasn't even asking them to... then the ram was bad so they swapped that out. The OS said service battery soon so they gave me a new one. heh Jan 11 09:19:46 sick Jan 11 09:19:48 oh and the DVD drive had been bad for a year and a half so they replaced that while they were at it. Figured I would get it all done before applecare ran out Jan 11 09:20:02 dang dude Jan 11 09:20:06 yeah i have no applecare on this Jan 11 09:20:11 no problems yet, knock on wood Jan 11 09:20:41 my friend works at the store I took it to, but I don't know if he influenced the guy. he had to pretend we didn't know eachother cause hes all paranoid about their policies Jan 11 09:20:54 haha Jan 11 09:21:40 he let me use his employee discount when I bought this thing. They get 25% off one machine a year and then like 10 or 15% otherwise I think Jan 11 09:22:07 morning Jan 11 09:22:08 oh damn Jan 11 09:22:12 lol morning Jan 11 09:22:33 i get the dreaded "failed_not_enough_install_space" with palm-install Jan 11 09:22:34 it's 3:22am CST Jan 11 09:22:38 ruh roh Jan 11 09:22:42 but /var is only used 22% Jan 11 09:22:43 any ideas? Jan 11 09:22:51 don't install in var? Jan 11 09:23:30 huh? Jan 11 09:23:48 you're sending an app to your pre, yes? Jan 11 09:23:55 why does it install to var Jan 11 09:24:33 fffffffuuuuuuu 10 minutes to download this package with wget... GEH SCHNELLER Jan 11 09:25:24 app used: 20mb Jan 11 09:25:25 # apps: 33 Jan 11 09:26:10 all apps install to /var, no? Jan 11 09:26:31 uhh Jan 11 09:26:39 new apps install to the cryptofs thing Jan 11 09:26:47 on 1.3.5 Jan 11 09:26:51 this is a common problem from what i've heard Jan 11 09:26:52 i'm still on 1.3.1 Jan 11 09:26:56 your problem Jan 11 09:27:00 i have no idea how to fix i guess Jan 11 09:27:02 palms problem Jan 11 09:27:03 pretomcat: anything keeping you from updating? Jan 11 09:27:13 are you on a GSM phone or something? Jan 11 09:27:17 yeah, being an european gsm user Jan 11 09:27:22 ahh Jan 11 09:27:39 yep, the VAR won't let you install any new apps past a certain percentage Jan 11 09:27:40 is sucks, i know Jan 11 09:27:40 it Jan 11 09:27:48 germany? Jan 11 09:27:48 because things like emails and attachments get stored in there also Jan 11 09:27:52 so it needs room for that Jan 11 09:27:53 switzerland Jan 11 09:27:59 :D wie geht's Jan 11 09:28:05 scheisse Jan 11 09:28:07 :) Jan 11 09:28:13 so you can use the mvApp program in preware for now, or remove something Jan 11 09:28:16 na immer Jan 11 09:28:34 mvapp reports 22% used Jan 11 09:28:34 194mb available Jan 11 09:28:46 you have really good english, damn Jan 11 09:28:58 thanks Jan 11 09:29:32 im trying to install my app, damn Jan 11 09:29:36 honor student ;) Jan 11 09:29:41 i <3 die schweiz Jan 11 09:29:56 ich "weniger als drei" die schweiz Jan 11 09:30:48 crypt: it should not fail with 22%? Jan 11 09:32:14 no it shouldn't, thats actually far better than most Jan 11 09:32:30 strange Jan 11 09:32:49 i cleaned up a bit today Jan 11 09:33:22 how does palm-install calculate available space? Jan 11 09:34:14 you might try rebooting the pre, possibly there are file handles open and so the fs space isn't "really" free yet Jan 11 09:34:39 already tried :( Jan 11 09:35:00 what does df -h say? Jan 11 09:35:07 isn't it du Jan 11 09:35:13 df Jan 11 09:35:19 oh sweet Jan 11 09:35:38 I want df anyways for the full filesystems, not for specific directories in this case, Jan 11 09:35:40 es ist sie, nicht du :) Jan 11 09:35:55 let me see Jan 11 09:36:22 rebooting again just in case Jan 11 09:36:50 if you doesn have a nice ssh/putty login, then on the built in terminal, turn sideways and pipe into less -S "df -h |less -S" turn sideways, hit enter Jan 11 09:37:33 ok, i have ssh Jan 11 09:37:53 lol pretom Jan 11 09:38:10 entschuldigung, mein herr Jan 11 09:38:17 wie geht es IHNEN? Jan 11 09:38:30 grins Jan 11 09:39:02 * yokken wusste nicht, dass wir keine Freunde waren Jan 11 09:39:49 * pretomcat was joking Jan 11 09:39:54 ok, results are in Jan 11 09:40:13 * yokken wusste Jan 11 09:40:21 rootfs is 96% full Jan 11 09:41:11 what do i have to check, keyofr? Jan 11 09:42:05 rwhitby, ping Jan 11 09:42:19 i think rwhitby gtfo'd a while ago Jan 11 09:42:31 roger that thanks yokken Jan 11 09:42:35 np Jan 11 09:44:18 pretom dunno, just the first thing I would look at if it was me. I'm checking my own rootfs now for discrepencies and see what jumps out if anything. I hav 1.3.5.1 now though so not a great reference to compare against. Jan 11 09:44:49 i looooooove 1.3.5 Jan 11 09:44:55 it made my pre so much faster Jan 11 09:47:24 keyofr: im stumped too Jan 11 09:49:04 almost done setting up the PDK in my ubuntu VM Jan 11 09:49:12 about to compile doom Jan 11 09:49:35 then i'm fucking going to bed so i can troubleshoot some rich guy's imac+printer tomorrow and make 50 bucks Jan 11 09:51:07 no doom for me :( Jan 11 09:51:16 well dang less is just the busybox fake less no -S Jan 11 09:51:36 i wonder when that 1.3.5.1 is coming to europe Jan 11 09:51:46 i didnt use less Jan 11 09:52:16 my root is 97% Jan 11 09:54:45 ok Jan 11 09:54:51 that's not the problem then Jan 11 09:55:07 var is 22% Jan 11 09:55:36 var/log 25% Jan 11 09:58:33 /dev/mapper/store-var 248.0M 75.9M 172.1M 31% /var Jan 11 09:59:41 /dev/mapper/store-log 38.7M 9.1M 29.7M 23% /var/log Jan 11 09:59:56 tmpfs 64.0M 392.0k 63.6M 1% /tmp Jan 11 10:00:27 oops Jan 11 10:00:29 i think i see what the problem is Jan 11 10:00:46 /var is also mounted as /opt Jan 11 10:00:52 i have the old version of the sdk on my dev notebook :( Jan 11 10:01:02 1.2.0.33 Jan 11 10:01:10 no wonder its not working Jan 11 10:01:14 sorry about that Jan 11 10:01:20 i have 3 dev machines Jan 11 10:01:24 happaens :) Jan 11 10:04:24 * pretomcat goes off to install the latest sdk Jan 11 10:04:28 thanks guys Jan 11 10:14:16 ZOMG Jan 11 10:14:18 haha Jan 11 10:14:22 i apologize for saying zomg Jan 11 10:14:22 BUT Jan 11 10:14:27 BUT BUT Jan 11 10:14:33 the opengl renderer Jan 11 10:14:35 for vba Jan 11 10:14:41 that i've spent the last 2 days writing Jan 11 10:14:46 (i was learning opengl too :/) Jan 11 10:14:50 is SO much better Jan 11 10:14:53 hahahaha :D Jan 11 10:15:06 AND should get us pixel-scaling algorithms for essentially free Jan 11 10:15:21 (hq2x, 2xSaI, whatever I can implement as a shader) Jan 11 10:15:29 bah it's quiet in here, no one to share with Jan 11 10:15:36 okay it's way too late Jan 11 10:15:42 dtzWill: i want Jan 11 10:17:59 vba? Jan 11 10:23:47 wow finally got ssh on port 22 working Jan 11 10:23:50 fucking public/private keys Jan 11 10:24:11 night all Jan 11 10:30:05 KEYofRghh: visual boy advance, sorry. lots of characters, no tab complete, what's a guy to do :) Jan 11 10:30:50 got it , wasn't being anal I really didn't know, and I assumed not visual basic for applications Jan 11 10:39:21 oh sup Jan 11 10:39:38 yeah so my doom works great until it says there's no screen Jan 11 10:39:46 is this a rookie mistake or what Jan 11 10:42:00 oh lol I ran it from ssh but I just did it from terminal on pre and it works great now Jan 11 10:42:10 now I just need to figure out how to turn Jan 11 10:48:01 so the sb2 install and setup procedure has been worked out pretty well now? I could maybe develp a .spec and make a nice opensuse rpm? Jan 11 10:48:27 it's super easy Jan 11 10:48:37 do you know how to turn in doom? lol Jan 11 10:50:06 wry Jan 11 10:51:03 wirc owns Jan 11 10:51:13 night for real Jan 11 10:55:36 re Jan 11 10:55:50 jack87: syn|ack Jan 11 10:56:16 rwhitby, you're only supposed to syn, he's supposed to ack :p Jan 11 10:56:52 acydlord: he already sent the first syn in his ping Jan 11 10:57:07 ahh, i see Jan 11 10:59:31 i think next time i get bored i'm gonna make a business card of sorts with ares Jan 11 11:00:56 acydlord: here is how it should work Jan 11 11:01:00 rwhitby: syn Jan 11 11:01:29 * cryptk|work waits for retruned packet... Jan 11 11:01:38 cryptk|work: ICMP REJ Jan 11 11:01:38 * cryptk|work can't spell returned... Jan 11 11:01:55 lol Jan 11 11:01:59 lol Jan 11 11:01:59 * rwhitby opens firewall Jan 11 11:02:14 rwhitby: syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn syn Jan 11 11:02:25 * cryptk|work continues syn flood Jan 11 11:02:34 rwhitby: preware download the ipk to /tmp, how about if there is no enough space? Jan 11 11:02:50 ameng: it'll probably fail Jan 11 11:03:16 rwhitby: can i change the default download path? Jan 11 11:03:33 ameng: if you can convince ipkg to use something different, yeah. Jan 11 11:03:38 ipkgservice just calls ipkg Jan 11 11:03:41 could always use the RFC1149 of SEED|SQUAK Jan 11 11:04:06 rwhitby: how? Jan 11 11:04:07 * rwhitby had an upstream router block cryptk|work's packets Jan 11 11:04:23 ameng: UTSL Jan 11 11:04:42 (don't know off the top of my head) Jan 11 11:05:14 * cryptk|work fires up the botnet for a DDOS... nobody blocks my syn packets... Jan 11 11:05:34 rwhitby: ok Jan 11 11:05:44 * acydlord fires up GreenDam on cryptk|work's computer Jan 11 11:06:03 rwhitby: did someone begin to develop a sdl-opengl terminal ? Jan 11 11:06:06 ameng: /tmp is 65MB ... Jan 11 11:06:14 64MiB Jan 11 11:06:26 ameng: I think PuffTheMagic was working on something Jan 11 11:06:56 so does this sdlgnuboy work? I have no roms to test it Jan 11 11:07:13 rwhitby: a game could be easily biggger than that Jan 11 11:07:19 * cryptk|work isn't worried about acydlord's greendam because cryptk uses linux... Jan 11 11:07:56 drats, foiled again Jan 11 11:07:59 ameng: where do you suggest we point tmpdir? Jan 11 11:08:22 * cryptk|work laughs at acydlord's feeble attempts to knock him offline... Jan 11 11:08:34 wait a second... are we really role playing a hack? Jan 11 11:08:35 I've been waiting to hear how far puff got with that too. Last I saw I pointed him at fbterm to possibly supply the terminal emulation and login/tty stuff that sdlterm library didn't do. Jan 11 11:08:44 but he'd only just started looking Jan 11 11:08:52 donot kown Jan 11 11:08:53 psh, i do have 3/4 of a datacenter and a satellite at my disposal Jan 11 11:09:17 * cryptk|work has several servers of his own... Jan 11 11:09:40 * cryptk|work benefits of running your own website of questionable legality Jan 11 11:09:44 i'm just really excited about having my run of a satellite for 6 months Jan 11 11:09:57 lol, should be fun Jan 11 11:10:25 cryptic, the 3/4 of a datacenter is owned by me, it's hosted there in exchange for my services Jan 11 11:10:59 and the satellite is to test the viability of hosting not so legal stuff in space Jan 11 11:10:59 wtf do you do? and do they need any more employees? lol Jan 11 11:11:08 * rwhitby has an 8GB RAM laptop instead of a datacentre Jan 11 11:11:19 wait... acydlord... a server in space... Jan 11 11:11:36 * cryptk|work laughs at how rwhitby spells datacenter Jan 11 11:12:09 * rwhitby laughs at how cryptk|work pronounces laughs Jan 11 11:12:15 they do software qa testing mostly, I set up all the networking and provide infosec and consulting in exchange for the space and bandwidth Jan 11 11:12:25 and sadly they arent looking for more employees at the time Jan 11 11:12:33 yes, i said a server in space Jan 11 11:12:50 i origionally got the idea cause i wanted to put a torrent tracker in space Jan 11 11:13:03 acydlord: I used to do Comsec/Opsec for the military, along with some infosec... need an employee? lol Jan 11 11:13:16 wanna put my torrent tracker in space? lol Jan 11 11:13:27 that would be a good way to keep people off my back, haha Jan 11 11:14:01 nice, further outside anyones jurisdiction than those oil rigs even. Jan 11 11:14:01 oh, just saw where you said they aren't hiring... Jan 11 11:14:02 damn Jan 11 11:14:04 i'm gonna actually build a sat from the ground up and launch it on the cheap with a custom launch platfrom/vehicle based on weather baloons Jan 11 11:14:20 'course... further outside anyone protection either Jan 11 11:14:33 baloon it most of the way up and then use a smaller rocket to get it the rest of the way? Jan 11 11:14:41 that has got to require a permit of some kind, lol Jan 11 11:14:46 planning to opensource it all once it's done Jan 11 11:14:59 cryptk|work, exactly, no permits needed surprisingly Jan 11 11:15:03 wait... would that be GNU or MIT, lol Jan 11 11:15:20 LGPL? Jan 11 11:15:27 probably lgpl Jan 11 11:15:35 visualboyadvance play's all the gb/gbc roms i've played so far Jan 11 11:15:41 the opengl renderer rewrite REALLY helps haha Jan 11 11:15:48 hah, the X-Server Jan 11 11:15:51 when can we expect that in preware? Jan 11 11:16:07 I really would like VBA Jan 11 11:16:10 in fact i cant't believe the raw sdl version was terrible, maybe the dev was lazy--but looks good to me. Jan 11 11:16:13 shaders ftw Jan 11 11:16:29 cryptk|work: i'll try to post a beta soon Jan 11 11:16:39 cryptk|work: but i hope to do lots of work regarding usability Jan 11 11:16:43 dtzWill: awesome Jan 11 11:16:54 the more cool shit that gets brewed up for the pre, the more pissed i get at palms decision to put a qualcomm chip in the pixi Jan 11 11:17:18 rom selector, touchscreeen/overlay controls (maybe) Jan 11 11:17:19 aww... did acydlord get a pixi? Jan 11 11:17:27 but for now i'm just getting the raw engine reasonably efficient Jan 11 11:17:35 already dropped rendering speed to near zero haha Jan 11 11:17:35 cryptk|work, i have both. prefer the formfactor of the pixi Jan 11 11:17:44 and gpu means free pixel scaling goodness Jan 11 11:17:52 i'm a good developer, i have both hardware platforms :p Jan 11 11:18:04 I like the larger screen of the pre... but the oreo proof pixi form factor is nice Jan 11 11:18:35 i've always preferred candybar phones Jan 11 11:18:45 sliders seem to gimmicky and accident prone Jan 11 11:18:47 hey, would the newfound access to the GPU allow us to make a faster loading virtual keyboard Jan 11 11:19:16 cryptk|work, you could make a keyboard using sdl Jan 11 11:19:38 I'l say one thing about the pre, who's form I hate, I am pleasantly surprised at how clean and well-working my keyboard continues to be vs all the treos/centros I had before Jan 11 11:20:34 my keyboard does stay nice and clean on my pre... it is almost like it is anti-static... Jan 11 11:20:51 I don't get lint and crap stuck inbetween the buttons Jan 11 11:20:54 lol, my pre's keyboard has some pizza grease on it from last night Jan 11 11:21:12 it's almost like it gets covered up all the time by a slider Jan 11 11:22:00 my pixi keyboard stays amazingly clean Jan 11 11:22:38 wait wait wait Jan 11 11:22:38 what Jan 11 11:22:43 we have visual boy advance now Jan 11 11:22:43 actually... I may be misremembering... I think the centro finally was good. A single solid membrane with the buttons were just thick spots, wasn't it? \ Jan 11 11:22:47 where Jan 11 11:23:13 KEYofRghh, the centro keyboard is the same type that is in the pre Jan 11 11:23:26 looked gunky as any other, but didn't actually have seams to allw junk to get in and clog up Jan 11 11:24:35 MTW: the cake is a lie... there is no such thing as visualboyadvance *wink wink( Jan 11 11:24:41 s/(/*/ Jan 11 11:24:43 cryptk|work meant: MTW: the cake is a lie... there is no such thing as visualboyadvance *wink wink* Jan 11 11:24:55 seriously though Jan 11 11:24:56 I can't really tell if the pre's has distinct buttons or is a solit sheet. seems like a sheet but with a very effective visual trick to make it look like buttons Jan 11 11:24:57 where is it Jan 11 11:24:58 i want. Jan 11 11:25:12 they are still working on it Jan 11 11:25:16 ah Jan 11 11:25:16 it isn't released yet Jan 11 11:25:21 but there has been good progress Jan 11 11:25:26 brb, govt mandated smoke break Jan 11 11:25:28 great Jan 11 11:25:33 KEYofRghh, it's a solid piece Jan 11 11:25:41 unlike the iphone ports, this may actually be usable due to the keyboard Jan 11 11:26:16 unlike anything on the iphone, it may actually be usable Jan 11 11:26:21 well said. Jan 11 11:26:35 though, the iphone does have a usable music player, while the one on the pre does sort of suck Jan 11 11:26:42 but one app doesn't make up for an overall terrible package Jan 11 11:26:47 the one on the pre is good with a few tweaks Jan 11 11:26:55 but then again i do have a creative zen for music Jan 11 11:27:06 if you actually use a creative product i feel bad for you Jan 11 11:27:08 hehe I never use music player Jan 11 11:27:28 why, creative was good enough for apple to steal and turn into the ipod :) Jan 11 11:27:37 not looking for a fight. Jan 11 11:27:37 nanplayer is pretty solid Jan 11 11:27:41 brb Jan 11 11:28:02 and the zen i have has an omap in it, so i'm happy Jan 11 11:28:54 i still miss my n810 though, shoulda never sold it Jan 11 11:33:33 zomg this is so fun haha Jan 11 11:33:46 sorry i spent 2 days fighting with opengl Jan 11 11:33:49 and now it's paying off Jan 11 11:34:24 dtzWill: when do you expect a beta? Jan 11 11:35:54 cryptk|work: not sure :). don't want to throw out any times until i iron out some key issues Jan 11 11:36:12 cryptk|work: the beta needs to be playable, i'm not sure if the core will be fast enough for gba or not :/ Jan 11 11:36:18 ahh, all good Jan 11 11:36:24 beta was an hour ago, 15 minutes ago was first release on preware, now it's v1.2 and $2.99USD in app catalog and has 14 page thread about it on precentral Jan 11 11:36:33 so it isn't tapped into the gpu at all? Jan 11 11:36:51 KEYofRghh: fast developement process, lol Jan 11 11:37:42 KEYofRghh just outlined the approval process of a fart app on the iphone Jan 11 11:38:02 acydlord: lol Jan 11 11:38:37 or those plethora of *fan apps in the palm catalogue Jan 11 11:38:38 cryptk|work: it's as fully tapped into the gpu as it can be--i seriously spent 2 days making it that way--the graphical operations are almost free Jan 11 11:38:50 cryptk|work: the problems now are that you're still emulating a different device Jan 11 11:38:54 cryptk|work: which is the slow part Jan 11 11:39:33 oh wow.. that just remined me, remember when iphone first came out? that stupid beer sloshing app? I'm amazed we havent seen that cloned on pre yet Jan 11 11:39:35 cryptk|work: and the part i've not spent too much time on--but also not sure what optimizations there are to be made, yet.... there might not be too many Jan 11 11:39:48 KEYofRghh, it's on the pre Jan 11 11:40:17 damn, knew it was too good to be true Jan 11 11:41:08 they need to impliment an algorythm for app aproval Jan 11 11:41:39 anyone have preware/cross-compile.git set up and a VNC server handy to the Pre? Jan 11 11:41:56 do a check against the apple app store, and if there are more than (n) at $price then reject it Jan 11 11:44:14 rwhitby, sadly no, i've been too lazy to swap the maemo dev environment on my laptop out for a webos one Jan 11 11:44:38 anyone have a cross compile environment that can post the whole VM image online somewhere? That would save people lots of time. Jan 11 11:45:40 that reminds me i need to invest in an esx server Jan 11 11:45:44 I was about to start setting up the crosscompile env. someone just said following the wiki directions for sb2 was easy. Ideally I want to then make a nice opensuse rpm of it. Jan 11 11:46:26 joshua: it wouldn't save me any time having to update the VM image every time something changed Jan 11 11:46:58 you could rsync the file and it would just update the changes I think Jan 11 11:47:07 though ive never tried that. heh Jan 11 11:47:39 (sorry, call me retarded, I use opensuse for all work so I have gobs of them and am up on all the details of making and maintaining well-integrated packages) I use ubuntu only on a few personal notebooks and desktops Jan 11 11:48:06 i still have debian on my dev laptop lol Jan 11 11:48:14 cryptk|work: i absolutely can't guarantee anything, but do you have any thoughts about how a good contorl scheme for gba would work? Jan 11 11:48:23 well, here's the deal. I'm going to maintain the git repo, and the wiki instructions to build it on ubuntu 9.10 server. anyone else here can take that and maintain VM images or RPMs or anything else for it. Jan 11 11:48:48 i'm gonna make .bat files for dos 6 Jan 11 11:48:54 sweet Jan 11 11:49:01 we can run it in dosbox on the pre then Jan 11 11:49:14 maybe it would compile itself :):) Jan 11 11:49:14 haha, do we have dosbox on the pre yet? Jan 11 11:49:22 SkyNet here we come ... Jan 11 11:49:26 cause then i could play some oregon trail like a champ Jan 11 11:49:27 1`key Jan 11 11:49:32 link me to the precentral thread Jan 11 11:49:37 great! because i can run dos 6 on my 8086 emulator on my jornada wince device! Jan 11 11:50:15 (phone held sideways like Quake) virtual D-pad on left side of the screen with a virtual start/select below it... tap top of gesture area for A button, bottom of gesture for B button Jan 11 11:50:25 and then i'll convert it to punch cards to run it on my portapunch Jan 11 11:50:26 while i'm here to bitch Jan 11 11:50:28 or univac Jan 11 11:50:39 put a GBA looking skin down the left side where the virtual controls are at Jan 11 11:50:43 where the FUCK is a sirius app already. fuck radiotime, let me login to my acct and stream real radio ffs Jan 11 11:50:48 rdesktop-sdl, sdlgnuboy, sdlmame and sdlvnc, all in cross-compile/nonworking wait for some testing Jan 11 11:50:52 and that should cut the screen down to where it is about the same size as a GBA Jan 11 11:51:05 MTW: is there a need for that language? Jan 11 11:51:11 we are all adults here Jan 11 11:51:20 i would hope, anyway Jan 11 11:51:23 exactly rwhitby's point Jan 11 11:51:35 i don't think that was his point. Jan 11 11:51:37 wait... those things had shoulder buttons... didn't they Jan 11 11:51:41 yes Jan 11 11:51:41 some of us are Jan 11 11:51:46 two shoulder buttons Jan 11 11:52:00 cryptk|work: i think i'm going to render 'portrait' for the beta for now, since it's usable (physical keyboard)---the overlay stuff i've done doesn't 'transfer' to vba, since it's using opengl Jan 11 11:52:09 cryptk|work: but i aim to support that at some point Jan 11 11:52:22 ok... lemme think about it for a sec Jan 11 11:52:37 you can use the acellerometer for L and R left tilt/right tilt Jan 11 11:52:58 l and r weren't tilt buttons Jan 11 11:53:00 so no, you can't Jan 11 11:53:18 and only two or so games actually had tilt functionality, it was a cart based thing, and it was never emulated Jan 11 11:53:37 WASD = U,D,L,R Q=left shoulder P=right shoulder K,L=A,B Space=select Enter=Start Jan 11 11:53:39 not talking about tilt functionality, talking about mapping tilting the pre left for the l button Jan 11 11:53:49 yeah, i'm saying that's a really bad idea Jan 11 11:53:50 lets start with that and fine tune it as we play with it Jan 11 11:54:04 cryptk|work: that sounds great. Jan 11 11:54:13 cryptk|work: it should be changeable via config at some point, but not yet. Jan 11 11:54:33 i still need to check and see how BlueZ is coming along Jan 11 11:54:50 cause i'd still rather have data than audio for bluetooth Jan 11 11:54:52 why can't the up down left right buttons just be wasd Jan 11 11:55:00 oh, wait. gba buttons for and b Jan 11 11:55:02 MTW: what is wrong with mapping tilt left/right to the shoulder buttons? Jan 11 11:55:02 forgot. Jan 11 11:55:15 multiple games used the shoulder buttons to control battles, etc Jan 11 11:55:21 it would suck to tilt around to get that functionality Jan 11 11:55:28 that is true... Jan 11 11:55:28 multiple games would become unplayable Jan 11 11:55:35 some of the better games would simply not work Jan 11 11:55:41 I tried to place shoulder buttons where they would be easily accessable Jan 11 11:55:59 cryptk|work: for physical kb that sounds great Jan 11 11:56:14 yep Jan 11 11:56:16 thanks Jan 11 11:56:16 the shoulder buttons need to be solved Jan 11 11:56:24 why not this Jan 11 11:56:28 MTW: I did use wasd for udlr Jan 11 11:56:36 yeah, that sounds good at first Jan 11 11:56:51 but where are you mapping the a and b buttons Jan 11 11:56:52 so what's the problem... Jan 11 11:56:58 k and l Jan 11 11:57:03 rwhitby what git crosscompile reference are you maintaining? I'll start by following that. Jan 11 11:57:07 ah, good, our SCALE registration is up at http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale8x/exhibitors?page=1 Jan 11 11:57:08 that sounds fine Jan 11 11:57:13 so they are near P which is being used for the right shoulder Jan 11 11:57:14 your config is fine Jan 11 11:57:22 WASD = U,D,L,R Q=left shoulder P=right shoulder K,L=A,B Space=select Enter=Start Jan 11 11:57:23 i am rather tired and not thinking. nevermind me Jan 11 11:57:25 KEYofRghh: http://bit.ly/webos-internals-pdk Jan 11 11:57:28 haha Jan 11 11:57:44 I actually held my phone in my hand when I was coming up with it Jan 11 11:57:44 ah ok what I was looking at already ok Jan 11 11:57:59 be sure to handle the "new" safe type Jan 11 11:58:07 dtzWill: that does regular gameboy also right? Jan 11 11:58:12 not sure if the VBA code has that in it Jan 11 11:58:13 cryptk|work: gloriously Jan 11 11:58:25 all i care about is GBA Jan 11 11:58:28 hopefully that runs well Jan 11 11:58:36 I still need to figure out when we're gonna do predevcamp here in az since we missed the official date Jan 11 11:58:36 can you use the same buttons for regular gameboy as well.... obviously no shoulder buttons, but the rest of it Jan 11 11:58:44 keep it as consistent as possible Jan 11 11:58:55 cryptk|work: oh for sure Jan 11 11:58:57 just use a bluetooth gamepad =x Jan 11 11:58:58 acydlord: SDL game hackathon Jan 11 11:59:02 cryptk|work: changing them every hadn't occured to me Jan 11 11:59:44 I figure if they stay the same across types it will be easier to use Jan 11 11:59:46 rwhitby: not just sdl, changed it to use opengl for the rendering :):). Jan 11 11:59:49 rwhitby, i'm definitely gonna include all options, official and community, and try to score some sponsor prizes for best project Jan 11 12:00:10 acydlord: Palm will give you books and swag, no problems Jan 11 12:00:15 rwhitby: i think i misunderstood you, and you weren't talking to me, nvm :) Jan 11 12:00:20 dtzWill: we got that in a repo? Jan 11 12:00:25 just can't have the q and p buttons do shoulder since the orig gameboy didn't have any Jan 11 12:00:42 rwhitby: we will in the nearish future. Jan 11 12:00:51 ah, doesn't exist yet then ;-) Jan 11 12:01:13 rwhitby: haha okay. i'll let you know when it "exists" :):) Jan 11 12:01:32 dtzWill: so are we missing any more important staged libs? Jan 11 12:01:48 shit is moving so fast Jan 11 12:01:56 first doom Jan 11 12:01:58 quake Jan 11 12:02:00 and now gba Jan 11 12:02:01 christ Jan 11 12:02:03 what's next Jan 11 12:02:08 rwhitby, i'd like to get one of the carriers to sponsor something too which would be beast and a great incentive for the local devs to pump out something groundbreaking. some of the other dev conferences out here have pumped out amazing projects in a day Jan 11 12:02:40 i should have never mentioned qemu in here, it created a monster =x Jan 11 12:03:01 rwhitby: i can push sdl_gfx at some point. not sure if it's 'important', but yeah. Jan 11 12:03:17 acydlord: talk to rick about getting sprint sponsorship. Jan 11 12:03:41 dtzWill: any ideas why sdlmame isn't working? Jan 11 12:04:03 rwhitby: i didn't know it wasn't; haven't looked. what's wrong? not compiling? running? runtime oddities? Jan 11 12:04:16 sdlvideo_init: Initialization failed! Jan 11 12:04:17 rwhitby, will do.luckily i have connections at verizon already, and need to get some accessory makers on board Jan 11 12:04:30 dtzWill: it's in cross-compile/nonworking Jan 11 12:04:53 acydlord: get seido to sponsor batteries for playing quake Jan 11 12:05:12 lol Jan 11 12:05:24 acydlord: seriously, this sb2 env is a much lower barrier to entry than OE Jan 11 12:05:33 haha rwhitby good idea Jan 11 12:05:50 rwhitby: i'll take a look after i'm done with this feature i'm working on. is someone working on it? don't wanna waste effort/step on people's feet :) Jan 11 12:06:00 yeah rwhitby sb is how we did probably 90% of development for maemo Jan 11 12:06:16 dtzWill: I think it was just jacques and I, and we're both busy doing other stuff too Jan 11 12:06:39 acydlord: I keep forgetting you were involved in maemo - which bits did you do? Jan 11 12:07:05 rwhitby: kk. sounds good :D Jan 11 12:07:09 i helped with various projects, like porting wordpress and all that mess Jan 11 12:07:33 jack of all trades ... Jan 11 12:07:35 and ended up with a few orphaned projects due to other things getting abandoned Jan 11 12:07:56 i was working on a location aware app/subsystem based on geoclue Jan 11 12:08:34 had it tied into the inbuilt messenger before i got overwhelmed with it Jan 11 12:09:47 acydlord: I've got an old N800 doing nothing - what should I put on it? Jan 11 12:10:08 rwhitby, find a way to put webOS on it =x Jan 11 12:10:49 my n810 had all the communication stuff on it, xchat, pidgin, had an nginx web server with sqlite on it Jan 11 12:11:10 and a few of the rts games Jan 11 12:11:19 i used to play the crap out of battle for wesnoth Jan 11 12:11:39 and of course you can chroot debian or android on it Jan 11 12:12:57 GBA Resolution: 240 × 160 pixels Jan 11 12:13:06 I am pretty sure that will fit on a pre screen... LOL Jan 11 12:13:29 double pixels Jan 11 12:13:35 4 gba's tiled Jan 11 12:13:40 heh Jan 11 12:13:53 i need to find a way to pump video from the pre out the microUSB port for when I get my pico projector lol Jan 11 12:14:03 actually, that's what webos needs - a tiling window manager hack Jan 11 12:14:14 could be a neat performance demo, running pre-saved games Jan 11 12:15:09 cryptk|work: nicely, for gb/gbc games: it's exactly half in each dimesion when in landscape Jan 11 12:15:14 cryptk|work: but like i said for now, no dice Jan 11 12:15:38 dtzWill: that's what I mean - double pixels and it's a perfect fit Jan 11 12:16:08 rwhitby: sorry didn't see that. Jan 11 12:16:53 rwhitby, cryptk|work i must be tired haha for some reason i thought it was the gb/gbc that had the 'problematic' resolution. sorry :) Jan 11 12:17:02 or: one corner = palmos, one = wince, one = browser, one = pre normal launcher or 'alike Jan 11 12:17:26 haha Jan 11 12:17:55 ooh, i just thought of a game we NEED on the pre Jan 11 12:17:57 tetrinet Jan 11 12:18:23 gb/gbc is 160x144 Jan 11 12:19:28 bah not sure what to do with that space Jan 11 12:19:40 for now I have opengl stretch it to full size since that was easiest Jan 11 12:19:49 but probably not the best idea :):) Jan 11 12:20:08 dtzWill: run banner ads for buying old roms Jan 11 12:20:35 hahaha Jan 11 12:20:43 use that space for game genie? Jan 11 12:21:12 or better put the internet in that space... and we all know what the internet is for... Jan 11 12:21:43 make an image that looks like the gameboy micro to take up the space around the 160x144 Jan 11 12:21:49 rwhitby: hahaha Jan 11 12:22:18 acydlord: that's a nice idea, i'll look into that in the future Jan 11 12:22:33 the micro was an sp/advance wasnt it? Jan 11 12:23:14 that could also be a good imagemap for virtual keys and such Jan 11 12:23:46 or, if you run it in portrait... ahve an image that looks like an actual gameboy... and make the touch controls be in the same locations as the buttons on the picture Jan 11 12:23:49 at least in landscape mode Jan 11 12:23:55 whenever you get around to touch controls that is Jan 11 12:31:28 ok, I need a game.gbc rom to package with sdlgnuboy - are there any legit ones publicly available? Jan 11 12:32:25 legit as in internet grey area, or legal? Jan 11 12:33:05 lemme see if i can find a PD one Jan 11 12:35:51 does it have to be a gbc, or will gba do? Jan 11 12:36:59 acydlord: gbc I believe Jan 11 12:37:06 rwhitby, http://www.pdroms.de/ Jan 11 12:37:08 acydlord: http://www.pdroms.de/files/gameboy/ Jan 11 12:37:08 haha Jan 11 12:37:10 xD Jan 11 12:37:10 you can take your pic there Jan 11 12:37:12 needs to be legal and freely redistributable Jan 11 12:40:35 thx Jan 11 12:43:03 ok, I can package this up to run /media/internal/gnuboy/game.gbc, and people can just put whatever ROM they want there. Jan 11 12:52:35 hi! can I change my bluetooth name? Jan 11 13:25:59 time to go home... Jan 11 13:25:59 later... Jan 11 13:28:18 cryptk|work: cya Jan 11 13:55:43 Latest alpha testing Preware (still at 0.9.14, but updated) now includes the display of Price information Jan 11 14:28:28 rwhitby: vba stuff is in git, should play all gb/gbc games great now. working on gba, i know what the issue is but it'll take a little time. time to get some coffee :D Jan 11 14:28:41 rwhitby: but since you were wondering if it existed :). Jan 11 14:33:29 cool, does vba have a builtin selector or also command line? Jan 11 14:34:00 destinal-wirc: command line for now, sorry. Jan 11 14:34:51 destinal-wirc: if someone knew webos mojo stuff might be easiest to just write the wrapper there haha Jan 11 14:35:15 destinal-wirc: maybe that's a silly idea; regardless command line for now Jan 11 14:36:43 rwhitby: i seem to recall some configure issues? but it should just work. if you have a change to try lemme know Jan 11 14:36:50 well we could with a type web launcher if we link the emu to mysql Jan 11 14:37:04 eer sqlite3 Jan 11 14:37:15 need coffee Jan 11 14:37:41 destinal-wirc: o_O what?! lol. Jan 11 14:38:13 destinal-wirc: sorry i haven't touched mojo, or hacking at it. where does sql come in? some indirect way of passing parameters? Jan 11 14:38:17 it's tricky to pass data Jan 11 14:38:26 destinal-wirc: ah. arguments don't work? :) Jan 11 14:38:37 nope Jan 11 14:39:09 security, we use upstart Jan 11 14:40:22 we could do a shell script that hit up sqlite tho Jan 11 14:40:58 destinal-wirc: quite possibly. since it's just a list of files and whatnot i also might look into some random menu code/library/deal. shouldn't be too hard. then it's all in one place. Jan 11 14:41:07 destinal-wirc: only b/c sqlite in shell script sounds just as hard :) Jan 11 14:41:33 destinal-wirc: but if you think it'd be easier i'm open to convincing hehe Jan 11 14:42:26 heh we should come up with some reusable launcher sdl code to make porting fast Jan 11 14:42:55 destinal-wirc: absolutely, particularly with all the ports that are (going to be) coming in Jan 11 14:46:25 dtzWill: lets hope that's true :) Jan 11 14:47:03 we have lots of partially done ones Jan 11 14:48:03 lol yeah so do I;) Jan 11 14:49:35 destinal-wirc: that's what the guys on the Wii did. the VBA emulator and the SNES emulator use the same exact UI Jan 11 14:50:12 the genesis didn't, though. after all, sega does what nintendon't Jan 11 14:51:04 So, I know this is a bit outside the topic, but since it's not busy...anybody have an opinion on which google voice app is best? Jan 11 14:51:06 :P Jan 11 14:52:30 oh bite me pulseaudio Jan 11 14:52:37 is there an SDL_NOPULSE flag? Jan 11 14:52:46 SDL_BITEMEPULSEAUDIONOONELIKESYOU Jan 11 14:53:05 idk why people complain about the battery I left my phone on all night long and it still has 100% battery Jan 11 14:53:34 Error: undefined reference to SDL_BITEMEPULSEAUDIONONELIKESYOU Jan 11 14:53:38 1351 is better Jan 11 14:54:09 Toaster23: do you have various services enabled? im/mail checking/etc? just curious Jan 11 14:54:20 Toaster23: although i agree i'm satisfied with the battery Jan 11 14:54:29 it was on his touchstone all night Jan 11 14:54:30 :> Jan 11 14:55:17 CoolMatty: hahaha Jan 11 14:56:08 dtzWill: I have mail and contact sync for gmail and I left the weather open, although wifi and bluetooth are off but I dont think i'll ever use them. Jan 11 14:57:19 does anyone know, seriously, if there's an easy way to use SDL but not have it use pulseaudio? Jan 11 14:57:33 I don't think that's possible Jan 11 14:57:35 shot in the dark, but i seem to recall seeing someone doing something about disabling it.... Jan 11 14:57:51 without like turning your sound support off in that app :/ Jan 11 14:57:57 hmm. alright then guess the fix there is different sound app boo Jan 11 14:58:02 CoolMatty: no it owrks Jan 11 14:58:12 CoolMatty: it just pulseaudio then takes 10-20% cpu Jan 11 14:58:18 ah Jan 11 14:58:18 CoolMatty: which is absolutely unacceptable Jan 11 14:58:34 dtzWill: what other option is there besides pulseaudio? Jan 11 14:58:48 zsockemboppers: alas? Jan 11 14:58:51 zsockemboppers: alsa Jan 11 14:58:58 zsockemboppers: i like your new nick :) Jan 11 14:59:01 dtzWill: which isn't multithreading? Jan 11 14:59:10 dtzWill: then your phone sounds won't work Jan 11 14:59:26 is that really a bad thing though? :p Jan 11 14:59:30 zsockemboppers: by multithreading you mean supports mixing different sources? Jan 11 14:59:35 dtzWill: I work for milton bradly Jan 11 14:59:41 dtzWill: right Jan 11 14:59:51 zsockemboppers: alsa supports that for sure Jan 11 14:59:58 zsockemboppers: it didn't, back.. a good while ago Jan 11 15:00:09 dtzWill: hm.. maybe I'm dating myself Jan 11 15:00:28 still it's a bit extreme to run a whole different sound system for just one app >.> Jan 11 15:00:37 zsockemboppers: meh or haven't looked into it lately :). i certainly remember hacking at alsa so i can play game Jan 11 15:00:41 well i don't get wtf it's doing Jan 11 15:01:01 CoolMatty: it's not a different sound system, it's an alsa proxy Jan 11 15:01:04 converting the audio or something? bah Jan 11 15:01:09 oh a proxy Jan 11 15:03:05 hmm my GPS doesnt seem to be on Jan 11 15:03:19 how do I go about turning it on? Jan 11 15:03:29 in the Locaiton Services icon Jan 11 15:03:44 ahh k Jan 11 15:03:53 then; Preferences Jan 11 15:04:34 dtzWill: I don't like it either, but there's a reason pulse audio is included is every major desktop linux distro Jan 11 15:05:50 dtzWill: as far as I can tell, all it does is provide an adaption layer that lets it give every process looking for sound its own socket and handles the mux to the alsa dsp Jan 11 15:06:59 'all it does' :) Jan 11 15:07:14 zsockemboppers: never said it wasn't a complexity Jan 11 15:07:43 zsockemboppers: i really don't know that there is. but okay :/. call me old or w/e but it just seems.. unnecessary. but then again maybe we should use OSS4 .... Jan 11 15:07:46 lol Jan 11 15:08:10 dtzWill: it depends on the sound card Jan 11 15:08:15 dtzWill: it also allows you to control volume separately for your app. and configured properly it _should_ be low latency. and it may use cpu but it uses 0 ram Jan 11 15:08:42 a lot of sound cards are too crappy to allow multiple streams to the hardware mixer Jan 11 15:08:47 (and I do mean a LOT) Jan 11 15:08:50 zsockemboppers: there could be more to it. my understanding is that it fixes a problem that dosn't seem to be a problem anymore, and gives features that i don't know that i care about Jan 11 15:09:08 Lumiere: i thought alsa handled that? maybe i just lucked out recently :) Jan 11 15:09:24 alright well I think i'm in over my head on sound drivers, regardless I want those cycles :( Jan 11 15:09:26 dtzWill: i'll bow to that, it's probably overkill in this case Jan 11 15:09:36 s/drivers/wrappersorwhatever/ Jan 11 15:09:37 dtzWill meant: alright well I think i'm in over my head on sound wrappersorwhatever, regardless I want those cycles :( Jan 11 15:09:42 dtzWill: it can handle it for higher end cards, but rarely does for non-stand alone cards Jan 11 15:10:17 dtzWill: I mean Lennart himself calls pulseaudio "the program that breaks your sound" ;) Jan 11 15:10:22 I spent so much time trying to get alsa to mux my mic monitor and 2 sound streams Jan 11 15:10:34 zsockemboppers: I agree with that Jan 11 15:10:40 I use pulseaudio+ear_candy Jan 11 15:10:49 OSS4 would be nice with more support Jan 11 15:10:53 and occasionally have to shut down ear_candy, kill pulse Jan 11 15:11:04 isn't OSS4 only partially free? Jan 11 15:11:25 then restart a pulse-session Jan 11 15:11:28 but that solves it Jan 11 15:11:49 Lumiere: i thought it was what bsd used. frankly that comment was a stretch, i'm not sure tbh. Jan 11 15:12:25 I will say that pulse has made audio much easier to handle (at least for me) in linux Jan 11 15:14:09 mornin ya'll Jan 11 15:14:40 hola Jan 11 15:16:55 dBsooner: hey :) Jan 11 15:22:41 rwhitby Jan 11 15:22:42 yo Jan 11 15:24:25 rwhitby is definitely sleeping atm Shrooster. Jan 11 15:24:45 It's like 1am there. Jan 11 15:24:45 Anything we can help you with? Jan 11 15:27:40 gba games working in vba now :D Jan 11 15:27:47 opps Jan 11 15:27:49 :] Jan 11 15:29:40 dtzWill: how soon till it packages? :) Jan 11 15:31:05 rwhitby: Any chance I can get a Trac project for the WebOS-Patches Web Portal? I have a lot of ideas of things to add/change/udpate/etc and would like a way to track them all. I mean it's not a huge deal, I can keep my sticky note system going, but I like having a place for everyone to see what I am doing. Jan 11 15:31:09 rwhitby: ^^ Jan 11 15:31:45 There.. now to remind myself to make sure rwhitby gets that when he wakes ... (Ok.. tagging rwhitby three times.. woops 4 now.. should get his attention when he reads logs) Jan 11 15:32:33 http://img.waffleimages.com/6aea27a09e83d218cefc6f910edd976b9efa4e8b/linux_sound_mess%5B6%5D.jpg Jan 11 15:33:22 I must say one of the nicest things about the pre is the web broswer :) Jan 11 15:34:55 webkit is nice Jan 11 15:40:34 does the flash beta come out this month or not till the 1.4 update? Jan 11 15:41:18 Toaster23: from the rumor's I have heard it will be with the 1.4 udpate Jan 11 15:41:32 as that was one of the key features of 1.4 Jan 11 15:42:09 palm said that it would be out in beta via the app catalog prior to the update Jan 11 15:42:20 dBsooner: I thought I saw/heard someone mention that flash would be available in the app catalog Jan 11 15:42:26 yeah too bad it doesnt come out till feb so long away. Jan 11 15:42:39 yeah its going to be in the app catalog Jan 11 15:42:43 http://www.precentral.net/ Jan 11 15:42:50 I'm thinking about buying need for speed Jan 11 15:42:59 er ops Jan 11 15:43:04 Oh, I thought it was an update for 1.4. Jan 11 15:43:10 Cool.. i like that it will be an app. Jan 11 15:43:25 dBsooner: maybe it'll be non-Beta in 1.4 Jan 11 15:43:36 http://www.precentral.net/slingplayer-be-flash-based-will-work-webos-14 Jan 11 15:43:42 I probably should go listen to Palm's Keynote at CES. Jan 11 15:43:55 YES! SLING PLAYER! Jan 11 15:43:59 "Now we wait for 1.4 and the Flash Player Beta to land in the App Catalog." << sounds like the beta will be 1.4 Jan 11 15:44:00 * dBsooner does the happy dance! Jan 11 15:44:17 That's one thing I absolutely cry about not having on my Pre that all my WinMo devices had Jan 11 15:45:24 hmm I'm looking forward to watching hulu if I can? Jan 11 15:45:36 and also playing boxhead Jan 11 15:45:40 * dBsooner just wants to be able to view his SlingBox! Jan 11 15:46:01 * dBsooner loves my SlingBox PRO (HD) That I have at home in my rack room. Jan 11 15:46:03 er well zombie wars lol Jan 11 15:46:35 I wonder if they'll let flash access the camera Jan 11 15:46:39 webcam stuff? lol Jan 11 15:46:42 that would be neat Jan 11 15:46:48 Oh that was the other thing in 1.4 Jan 11 15:46:52 Video recording Jan 11 15:46:55 yep :) Jan 11 15:46:58 If I recall. Jan 11 15:47:15 zsoc|sleep is going to be relieved. Jan 11 15:47:21 one wonders why they don't just open source slingplayer, seems like ports of the client would spur sales of their gear Jan 11 15:47:37 http://www.precentral.net/flash-101-coming-soon-palm-near-you Jan 11 15:47:39 destinal: Exactly what I emailed them. Jan 11 15:47:49 destinal: You know what they did? Jan 11 15:48:05 sent assassins? Jan 11 15:48:06 destinal: Gave me a lifetime license for all platforms and sent me a free SB Pro. Jan 11 15:48:10 dBsooner: we nixed that project already :) Jan 11 15:48:16 dBsooner: awesome Jan 11 15:48:39 destinal: I know right.. so I set it up full time for my bro to be able to watch stuff while he is on deployment in Afghanistan. Jan 11 15:48:54 dBsooner: very cool Jan 11 15:49:06 zsockemboppers: you check out the new WebOS Patches Web Portal? Jan 11 15:49:15 WPWP for short. :) Jan 11 15:49:16 dBsooner: so did they say whether they intend to open source the player? Jan 11 15:49:24 dBsooner: I'm not able to atm but it will Jan 11 15:49:47 destinal: They said they loved the idea, but marketing would have to be the ones to fully agree to it. Jan 11 15:49:47 dBsooner: or do we have to reverse engineer it? :) Jan 11 15:50:01 ah, ok. well, here's hoping Jan 11 15:50:15 they made some argument of why NOT to open source Jan 11 15:50:33 proprietary stuff that connects to their servers to find the SlingBOX ID, etc.. security mainly. Jan 11 15:50:36 wtf? google latitude works great on the PrÄ“ ... that runs very counter to my whining for hte past several months Jan 11 15:50:59 dBsooner: ah, well then they should *secure* that rather than obscure it :) Jan 11 15:51:17 destinal: But, with them getting into the WebOS and Droid markets, one could make an argument it will somewhat be open sourced. Jan 11 15:51:31 now that binary plugins are supported, can vlc player or tcmp be ported? we need better video format support for webos Jan 11 15:51:31 well, it'll be ported, not really the same Jan 11 15:52:00 wasn't tcmp just an mplayer port or something like that Jan 11 15:52:10 destinal: I want a sling player stand alone.. one you can hook up to your tv.. you can watch Hulu and stuff directly to the TV in HD. Jan 11 15:52:41 ^orb works today on webOS via a tuner Jan 11 15:52:48 I think they call that XBMC or boxee :) Jan 11 15:53:11 i'd like to more streaming video support though like through vlc player, it's time for webos to get this Jan 11 15:53:48 well, can we do real time video with generic SDL or do we need some kind of specialized DSP support? Jan 11 15:54:04 ie does palm's code already do the heavy lifting necessary for us? Jan 11 15:55:29 methink vlc player is opengl/sdl Jan 11 15:55:29 http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Vlc Jan 11 15:55:33 I know if we want to use hardware decoders it would have to be the latter, but is software decoding / rendering good enough and not so much worse on battery life... Jan 11 15:57:45 i bet a minimal mplayer with opengl/sdl could be built pretty easily Jan 11 15:58:08 or possibly just sdl and xv? Jan 11 15:58:10 Let's Golf seems to call palm's mediaserver to play the mp4 intro video Jan 11 15:59:16 well that's the thing, right, any of palm's supported formats, their player is bound to be more efficient Jan 11 15:59:32 I think people mainly want vlc for the stuff that isn't supported Jan 11 15:59:50 vlc? psh. I want mplayer so I can watch my videos in ASCII Jan 11 16:00:01 s/vlc/vlc or mplayer/ Jan 11 16:00:02 destinal meant: I think people mainly want vlc or mplayer for the stuff that isn't supported Jan 11 16:00:04 hehe Jan 11 16:00:23 :p Jan 11 16:00:28 CoolMatty: just download the videos in ASCII, you'll save bandwidth :P Jan 11 16:00:30 does vlc require a bunch of gui stuff? Jan 11 16:00:52 and CPU time likely, as I think the ascii output actually eats up more CPU time than regular output Jan 11 16:04:03 destinal: isn't there a libsdl-cinema? Jan 11 16:04:24 destinal: and to have a better video player in general.. there are practially no controls for the default video player. Jan 11 16:04:30 doesn't vlc and/or mplayer just use gstreamer and/or ffmpeg? Jan 11 16:04:43 destinal: http://www.asciipr0n.com/pr0n/ Jan 11 16:05:32 ffmpeg would be another good port for webOS Jan 11 16:06:14 ffmpeg is already included in webos... Jan 11 16:06:24 has been since initial release Jan 11 16:06:25 ^cool Jan 11 16:06:44 makes porting vlc that much easier :) Jan 11 16:06:52 a more fully featured one might be useful though, last I looked I only saw audio codec support Jan 11 16:07:42 but they have their patches up on opensource.palm so should be able to keep compatibility I'd hope Jan 11 16:07:44 is there a way to unlock palm from network lock? Jan 11 16:07:52 hi Jan 11 16:13:38 I have a full port of ffmpeg, very little to it. just use the right configure flags Jan 11 16:15:48 morning Jan 11 16:16:36 I don't really mind the current codec support. I just want mkv if possible, and softsubs :D Jan 11 16:20:31 PuffTheMagic: morning Jan 11 16:20:43 zsockemboppers: so less a port and more a build :) Jan 11 16:21:42 one very cool thing about a good toolchain and cross compile environment and portable code, especially with how cleanly SDL is integrated into luna. Jan 11 16:21:49 a lot of stuff just runs Jan 11 16:22:25 does this mean someone is working on an mplayer front end for the pre? :) Jan 11 16:23:55 no Jan 11 16:24:02 mplayer would be a waste of time Jan 11 16:24:08 codec support is one thing but we also need better controls for the player... the default video player has almost no controls, and streaming is limited. Jan 11 16:24:13 PuffTheMagic: you an ffmpeg guy right? :) Jan 11 16:24:24 zsockemboppers: ? Jan 11 16:24:40 PuffTheMagic: preference I meab Jan 11 16:24:42 mean Jan 11 16:24:55 zsockemboppers: as a user? i like ffmpeg, as a developer... i like gdst Jan 11 16:24:57 gst Jan 11 16:25:19 but regardless Jan 11 16:25:28 the palm mediaplayer ui already works Jan 11 16:25:36 all you need to do is build some more codeds Jan 11 16:25:39 as gst plugins Jan 11 16:25:41 and drop them in Jan 11 16:25:45 PuffTheMagic: mediaserver is closed source Jan 11 16:25:49 and it should work in the Palm mediaplayer Jan 11 16:26:03 zsockemboppers: yeah its closed source but i bet it still uses playbin Jan 11 16:26:04 PuffTheMagic: the palm mediaplayer doesn't use planbin Jan 11 16:26:18 zsockemboppers: how can you prove that? Jan 11 16:26:27 plus, we have to hack the fileindexer to even PICK UP those files Jan 11 16:27:07 well w/e im not wastime timeon mplayer.... Jan 11 16:27:13 so that i can watch mkv's at 1fps Jan 11 16:27:20 with subtitles Jan 11 16:27:55 destinal: ping Jan 11 16:27:58 PuffTheMagic: pong Jan 11 16:28:18 destinal: did u find out where the new "plugins" are getting installed Jan 11 16:28:27 can they be installed/run with in the apps directory completly Jan 11 16:28:33 or do they need to get installed on / Jan 11 16:28:44 like we did/do for termplugin Jan 11 16:29:10 PuffTheMagic: you mean NPAPI stuff? there are two classes of NPAPI plugins, BrowserPlugins and BrowserServerPlugins Jan 11 16:29:15 the latter can be run from cryptofs Jan 11 16:29:21 there's a path already in browser.conf for it Jan 11 16:29:28 what is a BrowserServerPlugin Jan 11 16:29:32 not sure Jan 11 16:29:38 terminal is a BrowserPlugin Jan 11 16:29:43 right Jan 11 16:29:58 PuffTheMagic: stop mediaplayer. start it with GST_DEBUG=3. play a song. log it. see the pipeline. it might use playbin Jan 11 16:30:02 BrowserServerPlugins are plugins for the web browser Jan 11 16:30:26 mdklein: all plugins are Jan 11 16:30:38 I'm talking specifically for the BrowserServer Jan 11 16:30:45 the thing that feeds the web browser app Jan 11 16:30:52 Well, where LunaSysMgr = the browser, BrowserPlugins plug into it Jan 11 16:31:03 LunaSysMgr = BrowserPlugins Jan 11 16:31:05 *nod* Jan 11 16:31:13 well what im getting at is this Jan 11 16:31:18 idk about plugins Jan 11 16:31:22 but with a straight up sdl app Jan 11 16:31:23 Named Pages patch is a very good idea :) Jan 11 16:31:23 so BrowserServer is in the browser plugin? are we talking about plugins to a plugin? Jan 11 16:31:32 they stay installed now Jan 11 16:31:37 on /media/cryptofs Jan 11 16:32:03 so we should combine preware and ipkgservice Jan 11 16:32:06 into an sdl app Jan 11 16:32:10 so that is stays installed Jan 11 16:32:15 and always works Jan 11 16:32:46 PuffTheMagic: but what about lack of native widgets? Jan 11 16:32:56 destinal: evas to the rescue Jan 11 16:33:02 lmorchard: for the named pages patch, do you store the names in the same place that the page layout is saved by Palm? Jan 11 16:33:28 and of course I think the SDL support doesn't work on pixi yet or does it Jan 11 16:33:42 egaudet_work: No, I set a cookie. the page layout is a 2-dimensional array of launch point ID strings, not objects Jan 11 16:33:45 Hey guys, quick ???. I'm sitting here moving files to the pre using webos quick install one-by-one (it's gotta go into a pretty specific directory, /home/lib/bla bla bla), but I cant figure out a way to move an entire -directory- Jan 11 16:34:04 destinal: well this could be Preware2 Jan 11 16:34:06 or something Jan 11 16:34:07 I have somewhere around 200 files to move and moving them 1 by 1 is going to take forever... Jan 11 16:34:10 PuffTheMagic: I agree that we could have much better preware performance in a native SDL app Jan 11 16:34:10 So I build an array of names corresponding to the pages, store in a cookie Jan 11 16:34:13 ncinerate: scp ;) Jan 11 16:34:27 destinal: http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Elementary Jan 11 16:34:35 ^^^ Elementary is the evas widget set Jan 11 16:34:35 :D Jan 11 16:34:36 lmorchard: OK, just asking because once I get my launcher organized I'll want to backup the whole layout Jan 11 16:34:52 not bad. I think we should try for close to native look / feel Jan 11 16:34:55 scp? apologize for my noobishness, but what is scp and how would I move a directory with it... Jan 11 16:35:06 PuffTheMagic: I can't test this. I don't have a single mp3 on my phone lol Jan 11 16:35:11 s/native/stock/ Jan 11 16:35:13 destinal meant: not bad. I think we should try for close to stock look / feel Jan 11 16:35:22 destinal: if people want to make "Palm-ish" apps we need widgets that look lile them Jan 11 16:35:22 Hmm, yeah, if you wanted to back up both the names and the layout, you'd need to copy both arrays Jan 11 16:35:33 destinal: its pretty easy to make new skins for evas apps Jan 11 16:35:46 destinal: but i dont think that should be our primary conscern Jan 11 16:35:48 ncinerate: it's 'cp' over ssh Jan 11 16:35:50 we could get started without it though, yeah Jan 11 16:35:57 reskin is easy later Jan 11 16:36:28 hmm, I was just using webos's move file... I guess I need to read up on how to ssh into the pre Jan 11 16:37:08 if we're going to go totally native we should link the ipkg code directly into it also and not shell out for things Jan 11 16:37:10 been too long since I bothered with linux :), was hoping there was a non ssh solution, no big deal Jan 11 16:37:23 destinal: yeah of course Jan 11 16:37:35 destinal: i already have C version of IPKG service Jan 11 16:37:42 that uses libipkg Jan 11 16:37:42 Preware native app sounds like a longer project. We should get an SDL Preware installer first, that can remain installed and always allow a user to reinstall after doctor Jan 11 16:37:43 i need to change that to opkg Jan 11 16:37:44 ah, right Jan 11 16:37:45 so we can get secure apps Jan 11 16:38:00 egaudet_work: integrating my C ipkgservice is easy Jan 11 16:38:05 i aleardy wrote it Jan 11 16:38:16 any way... i am volunteerint to do this project Jan 11 16:38:23 you guys and keep working on Preware1 Jan 11 16:38:28 and i will make a fork in the repo Jan 11 16:38:31 egaudet_work: well, I think we should have two parallel efforts Jan 11 16:38:32 and start playing on this Jan 11 16:38:50 my C ipkg code works nice Jan 11 16:39:00 it would be easy to use within an SDL app Jan 11 16:39:33 it wasnt used cause it not api backwards compat Jan 11 16:39:33 elementary looks very nice Jan 11 16:39:34 egaudet_work: preware should probably be broken up into a visible type:game preware launcher and a hidden type:web app that is what preware is now Jan 11 16:39:39 egaudet_work: it is Jan 11 16:39:56 destinal: i dont follow you Jan 11 16:39:57 the type:game just makes sure the ipkgservice is healthy and launches the mojo app Jan 11 16:40:13 PuffTheMagic: talking about the incremental step to 1.3.5 persist preware Jan 11 16:40:18 without sdl Jan 11 16:40:23 Can someone with terminal access and a playable mp3 log the output of "pkill mediaserver; mediaserver --gst-debug=3" and then immediate load up the music player, and select a song to play, then kill the log after 5 seconds in. Jan 11 16:40:27 destinal: good idea Jan 11 16:40:29 destinal: that would need at least my C servce Jan 11 16:40:34 which rwhitby dont want to use Jan 11 16:40:41 nah, it could use java Jan 11 16:40:43 cause its not backwards compat Jan 11 16:40:52 destinal: java still needs to be installed on / Jan 11 16:40:56 i believe Jan 11 16:41:02 so the split does nothing for us Jan 11 16:41:17 PuffTheMagic: I'm talking about an installer frontend that's transparent Jan 11 16:41:27 and run every time you run preware Jan 11 16:41:39 yeah i still dont follow you Jan 11 16:41:47 PuffTheMagic: a script Jan 11 16:42:01 what is to gain from that? Jan 11 16:42:05 check service, if not healthy, remount root, install java service Jan 11 16:42:08 you tap preware icoon and a script runs to check ipkgservice /preware exists (install if not) and then launch preware Jan 11 16:42:33 it's the quick and easy way to make the current preware persistent Jan 11 16:42:54 i guess that could be done Jan 11 16:43:08 There is another thing with preware that I wonder is possible.. Jan 11 16:43:11 it wouldn't work for pre 1.3.5 though Jan 11 16:43:31 since it would rely on a type:game launcher Jan 11 16:43:51 When viewing "installed packages" and you go to Patches, it shows you All the patches.. why can't it do by category like it does on the "List Available" area? Jan 11 16:44:19 dBsooner: cause oil didnt write it like that Jan 11 16:44:21 thats why it dont Jan 11 16:44:33 nothing to say that it coudlnt if someonme wrote some code Jan 11 16:44:46 dBsooner: that's for ALL packages, I agree though Jan 11 16:44:54 I miss categories in installed packages view Jan 11 16:45:06 egaudet_work: wait Jan 11 16:45:09 we could flip this around Jan 11 16:45:16 have preware do the health check itself Jan 11 16:45:32 and if it fails, have a repair button that does a launch on the hidden game app Jan 11 16:45:38 Should I put that on the Trac for Preware? Jan 11 16:45:51 Category view for Installed Packages.. Jan 11 16:46:12 destinal: does launching a game app work the same as another app, i.e. can just use app manager's launch? Jan 11 16:46:15 method Jan 11 16:46:26 egaudet_work: yes. why, yes, we can :) Jan 11 16:46:37 destinal: that's actually a better idea Jan 11 16:46:43 so i know rwhitby isnt around to vote but would you guys be down for a 100% SDL/Evas combination of Preware/Ipkgservice? Jan 11 16:46:59 Preware currently will just die when no service is running, so just add the cod ethere to run the "repair/install" game Jan 11 16:47:13 not die, but notify you and do nothing Jan 11 16:47:31 PuffTheMagic: I think it would be sexy Jan 11 16:47:40 egaudet_work: it does mean that if you want to install via the SDK you would have to install both ipks Jan 11 16:47:45 PuffTheMagic: absolutely. So much more possibilities with look, feel, performance, etc... Jan 11 16:48:08 destinal: you could just install the repair/install game Jan 11 16:48:09 and since ipkgservice would be embedded no one else coudl use it Jan 11 16:48:11 I think the first complaint you'd get with a native preware is "it doesn't look like a pre app", ironically enough Jan 11 16:48:13 which means no confirmation daemon Jan 11 16:48:14 and it could also have the preware check in there Jan 11 16:48:14 puff Jan 11 16:48:16 i cneed your help Jan 11 16:48:17 you here Jan 11 16:48:19 and no need for backwards compat Jan 11 16:48:21 interactice downloading game... "catch the packets!" :D Jan 11 16:48:21 egaudet_work: well we don't want two icons Jan 11 16:48:31 destinal: first-use Jan 11 16:48:33 egaudet_work: the repair game would probably be hidden Jan 11 16:48:37 then hide it Jan 11 16:48:39 MTW: yeah? Jan 11 16:48:54 (idk if that's possible or not) Jan 11 16:48:56 you worked on wirc, right? Jan 11 16:49:01 yeah Jan 11 16:49:02 wirced on work Jan 11 16:49:12 is there a way to make it not use tabs for each channel? Jan 11 16:49:14 egaudet_work: well, we can start out with having someone install two ipks, it's not bad Jan 11 16:49:14 MTW: wIRC is gonna get an Evas overhaul too :D Jan 11 16:49:27 i connect to two shells with 20+ channels on one, 10 on another Jan 11 16:49:31 MTW: you mean no cards? Jan 11 16:49:32 ... Jan 11 16:49:33 i'd rather not have that many cards open Jan 11 16:49:35 destinal: yea they have to do that anyway Jan 11 16:49:37 yeah, cards Jan 11 16:49:40 i'd rather only have one card Jan 11 16:49:47 will the alarm go off if i have the phone is USB mode? :P Jan 11 16:49:53 MTW: that might be in a future version Jan 11 16:50:00 please put it in a future version Jan 11 16:50:10 :) Jan 11 16:50:12 is it open source? Jan 11 16:50:15 yeah Jan 11 16:50:26 i can't believe no one added that in Jan 11 16:50:28 MTW: git.webosinternals.org Jan 11 16:50:32 it's such a vital feature for heavy irc users Jan 11 16:50:35 people are busy Jan 11 16:51:07 ++ Jan 11 16:51:17 MTW: u shouldnt be on 40 channels on your pre anyway Jan 11 16:51:22 unless you want 10 min battery life Jan 11 16:51:23 I can't believe this toddler didn't start running 5k's out of the womb! Jan 11 16:51:33 i get fine battery life Jan 11 16:51:43 i can't imagine channels would kill my battery life Jan 11 16:51:57 egaudet_work: so the type:game app can start out as a simple script but could get SDL later on for graphical feedback Jan 11 16:52:02 MTW: lots of modem traffic will kill it Jan 11 16:52:11 i connect to my bnc. i can't exactly choose what channels i am in Jan 11 16:52:17 if i leave it on my pre, it leaves it on my bnc Jan 11 16:52:29 So don't connect to bnc on a mobile device Jan 11 16:52:33 no fucking way Jan 11 16:52:37 never happening. Jan 11 16:52:39 bnc might be fairly efficient Jan 11 16:52:44 That or set up a separate bnc for mobile Jan 11 16:52:51 i guess i could do that Jan 11 16:52:58 i'd rather the app work the way i'd like it to, though Jan 11 16:53:01 You can't expect the same setup to work perfectly on desktop vs mobile Jan 11 16:53:08 it works fine on the iphone Jan 11 16:53:11 this is a wirc issue Jan 11 16:53:13 destinal: yea sounds good Jan 11 16:53:13 with a wirc fix Jan 11 16:53:29 so fix it Jan 11 16:53:36 Patches welcome :D :D :D Jan 11 16:53:49 http://git.webos-internals.org/trac/preware/ticket/15 Jan 11 16:53:57 oil: ^^ Jan 11 16:54:13 PuffTheMagic: this elementary is really nice looking actually Jan 11 16:54:25 it's the only issue with wirc, to be honest Jan 11 16:54:28 only vital one Jan 11 16:54:41 That should be a good project for you, then Jan 11 16:54:47 i'd like mirencryption support, but that will never happen Jan 11 16:54:52 stop being a prick, thanks Jan 11 16:55:33 stop suggesting other people should fix their crap for you, thanks Jan 11 16:55:38 I could say the same to you. Jan 11 16:55:49 MTW: wtf Jan 11 16:55:52 work on iPhone Jan 11 16:55:56 what works on iphone Jan 11 16:55:59 wIRC does not Jan 11 16:56:01 just waiting on some results at work, stopped in to say thanks to the team for all your work! Jan 11 16:56:06 Seriously: wirc was built to scratch an itch, not make you happy. Scratch your own itch :) Jan 11 16:56:06 irc works correctly Jan 11 16:56:20 i'd happily pay for a good irc client Jan 11 16:56:21 windzilla: you're welcome :) Jan 11 16:56:23 wirc is so close, but not quite Jan 11 16:56:30 MTW: wIRC is still alpha Jan 11 16:56:36 MTW: good thing it's free then Jan 11 16:56:37 and has 1.5 devs Jan 11 16:56:46 there's a handful of devs working on 1000 projects Jan 11 16:56:48 who are busy Jan 11 16:56:56 PuffTheMagic: .75 of each of you and oil? :P Jan 11 16:56:56 our resources are spread thin Jan 11 16:57:04 wow Jan 11 16:57:12 thanks destinal! Jan 11 16:57:20 egaudet_work: lol Jan 11 16:57:44 no just one full time and one ampute Jan 11 16:58:02 MTW: we busted our ass to get a working version out the door relatively fast and now it hard to get all of us on the same page again cause we have more projects Jan 11 16:58:04 morning chuqui Jan 11 16:58:06 and or work/shcool Jan 11 16:58:07 didn't see you sneak in Jan 11 16:58:08 egaudet_work: just trying to get a rise out of you Jan 11 16:58:13 and I regret it Jan 11 16:58:20 understanable Jan 11 16:58:22 wh Jan 11 16:58:24 i'm just requesting a feature Jan 11 16:58:26 who's the amputee? Jan 11 16:58:29 if it gets implented, that's cool Jan 11 16:58:31 MTW: we have a trac Jan 11 16:58:32 if not, i'll survive Jan 11 16:58:35 MTW: but Jan 11 16:58:41 something like that was on our list Jan 11 16:58:41 morning! Jan 11 16:58:43 for a next version Jan 11 16:58:48 egaudet_work: so all three of you are half wirc devs? :) Jan 11 16:58:48 oil: had some mock up Jan 11 16:58:49 like that Jan 11 16:58:57 just put the request on the wiki if it's not there already Jan 11 16:58:58 mind being more specific Jan 11 16:59:02 but i have a feeling that I might loose oil if I move to SDL/evas Jan 11 16:59:23 egaudet_work: you still down to hack on wIRC if I mvoe to Evas? Jan 11 16:59:35 I know I'm just messing :P, wIRC had so much steam and then just hit a brick wall and stopped moving Jan 11 16:59:54 frankly I think wIRC is rather good even for a beta or whatever. Jan 11 17:00:03 sure it needs polish, but it's far from unusable Jan 11 17:00:13 PuffTheMagic: I may be down but I just have no idea how much time, there's so much stuff to work on! :P Jan 11 17:00:13 yeah it works Jan 11 17:00:23 if you are a heavy irc users, having to have 30 cards open all the time = unusable Jan 11 17:00:29 If you move wIRC to SDL/evas, will you be able to support stuff like copy & paste and such? Jan 11 17:00:31 egaudet_work: i hear ya Jan 11 17:00:36 lmorchard: yeah Jan 11 17:00:46 The usual problem with leaving the native UI is you lose or are always playing catchup with the OS features Jan 11 17:00:46 the clipboard can be accessed natively Jan 11 17:01:00 and everyone complains about how the buttons look. (eg. Java, etc) Jan 11 17:01:22 egaudet_work: oil: well dont get pissed if I start doing some major changes to wIRC with out you guys cause once I start my PhD program im gonna have verry little time and I have to focus my free time into make a few apps awesome instead of being spread so thin Jan 11 17:01:25 we need a palm widget set. is that a distribution issue? Jan 11 17:01:25 Which is ironic since SDL/evas would be closer to native code Jan 11 17:01:38 evasIRC and evasTerminal Jan 11 17:01:39 :D Jan 11 17:01:48 Well, it's a wheel-reinvention issue at least, and possibly a copyright issue if you use all their images Jan 11 17:02:17 lmorchard: did you see the default evas widgets Jan 11 17:02:21 the are pretty Jan 11 17:02:29 and evas is very good with raster graphics Jan 11 17:02:32 git people...for Windows, is the msysgit package good, or is it better to stick with cygwin method? Jan 11 17:02:33 it can scale things nice Jan 11 17:02:34 PuffTheMagic: why would we get pissed for you working on wirc :P Jan 11 17:02:44 PuffTheMagic: wait, why can't we blit existing palm widgets? Jan 11 17:02:49 I'd almost say go nuts and use whatever evas comes with and save yourselves the trouble Jan 11 17:02:50 egaudet_work: well making changes with out passing them though the comittie Jan 11 17:02:51 ;) Jan 11 17:03:03 zsockemboppers: blit existing widgets? Jan 11 17:03:09 oddball question here, was porting over nethack for shits and giggles and when I run it on the pre I'm getting an "error while loading shared libraries: libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"..... would this mean the pre lacks the libgtk library required to run this? or am I missing something? Jan 11 17:03:14 zsockemboppers: we could use the imagaes used for palm widgets im sure Jan 11 17:03:23 PuffTheMagic: yeah Jan 11 17:03:24 but that isnt a primary goal of min Jan 11 17:03:30 gotcha Jan 11 17:03:32 ncinerate: uh, yeah, there's no gtk or libx11 here Jan 11 17:03:37 i mean if someone does cool Jan 11 17:03:38 apologize in advance for any noobishness, I havent played around with this stuff since somewhere in the mid 90's :) Jan 11 17:03:41 makes sense destinal Jan 11 17:03:45 but i think the Elementrary ones look nice as is Jan 11 17:04:01 ncinerate: it just means it would be more difficult to port Jan 11 17:04:04 If you try to get close to the palm widgets, they'll be just close enough to complain about, so might as well use the default widgets Jan 11 17:04:06 ncinerate: is there an SDL version? Jan 11 17:04:09 sure, back to the drawing board :) Jan 11 17:04:23 probably, was just trying to port something a bit more optimized for a pre-like interface Jan 11 17:04:38 I personally don't care about the palm widgets. Jan 11 17:04:39 figured I'd give it a shot since it worked on similar architecture, but I guess not quite exact :) Jan 11 17:05:16 ncinerate: yeah, easiest thing for now is to port SDL apps and just be full-screen Jan 11 17:05:47 fair enough :) Jan 11 17:06:00 ncinerate: there is a way to get gtk/sdl working together Jan 11 17:06:06 no one here has tried as far as i know though Jan 11 17:06:31 I wonder what it would take to get a game app to launch in the notification bar Jan 11 17:06:35 destinal-away: you think the pdk with support making surfaces in existing mojo apps? Jan 11 17:06:55 egaudet_work: change the app-assistant Jan 11 17:06:58 egaudet: that would be a very small game? like an abacus? ;) Jan 11 17:07:09 zsockemboppers: lol no thats not what me means Jan 11 17:07:10 PuffTheMagic: huh? type: game has no app assstant Jan 11 17:07:20 xD Jan 11 17:07:23 zsockemboppers: I don't think so, no. although they may come out with official NPAPI support Jan 11 17:07:24 what is in the app dir then Jan 11 17:07:29 there is some mojo Jan 11 17:07:34 i havent looked at it yet Jan 11 17:07:35 PuffTheMagic: no mojo in games Jan 11 17:07:39 which would let us make very good hybrids of mojo and apps Jan 11 17:07:42 we use mojo just to use the upstart manager service Jan 11 17:07:43 s/apps/native apps/ Jan 11 17:07:44 destinal meant: which would let us make very good hybrids of mojo and native apps Jan 11 17:07:45 but the mojo is never seen Jan 11 17:08:07 what is the "Palm" way of starting sdl games? Jan 11 17:08:12 we've already figured out everything we need in NPAPI except proper graphics Jan 11 17:08:19 PuffTheMagic: type: game Jan 11 17:08:20 PuffTheMagic: type: game Jan 11 17:08:20 in appinfo.json Jan 11 17:08:25 no mojo Jan 11 17:08:49 SDL is integrated into the card, it probably won't be feasible to get it into the notification Jan 11 17:08:51 PuffTheMagic: the packaging section at the bottom of this page does the same thing palm does http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Building_DOOM_with_scratchbox2 Jan 11 17:09:06 more or less. palm uses additional properties like minimum and maximum required RAM Jan 11 17:09:13 but they're not mandatoryu Jan 11 17:09:28 so why do we use the upstart thing Jan 11 17:09:34 destinal and we will be making that more complex once we know what the final Palm pdk thing looks like Jan 11 17:09:53 Rick_work: well we can base it on what other apps use now if we want Jan 11 17:10:03 PuffTheMagic we KNOW 100% certain that the type:game will be going away very soon Jan 11 17:10:10 PuffTheMagic: we did the upstart thing before we understood the official way Jan 11 17:10:18 Rick_work: why would you say that? Jan 11 17:10:30 Brian H head of security at palm has said that type game will be going away because it is a huge security hole Jan 11 17:10:31 Rick_work: if type:game is going away how are things gonna be started? Jan 11 17:10:39 Rick_work: he didn't say it was going away Jan 11 17:10:42 PuffTheMagic we don't know yet. Jan 11 17:10:47 destinal yes, he did. Jan 11 17:10:48 he said that it was going to be sandboxed / non-root / something Jan 11 17:11:27 destinal-away I see, you're implying that type-game might launch the sandbox environment. Jan 11 17:11:29 type: game will still exist at very least for backwards compatibility with currently available games Jan 11 17:11:44 Rick_work: yes Jan 11 17:11:59 the details of how it's launched can change without the current format needing to change Jan 11 17:12:01 destinal I think you're being optomistic. I think you may need to download an update. We will see in a couple of months Jan 11 17:12:01 or sooner Jan 11 17:12:26 i cant beleive they havent offerenta of us PDK access yet Jan 11 17:12:34 esp since we pratically wrote the book on it Jan 11 17:12:34 the games in the catalog would need to be updated wouldn't they? Jan 11 17:12:57 PuffTheMagic they can't offer what they don't have. Jan 11 17:13:04 there -is- no "pdk" yet. Jan 11 17:13:04 egaudet_work, PuffTheMagic: what do you two think of somehow getting a rating system together for Preware to use? Jan 11 17:13:17 Rick_work: they have what they gave EA and other companies Jan 11 17:13:19 dBsooner NO NO NO A THOUSAND TIMES NO Jan 11 17:13:21 Something I can add Ratings onto the WebOS-Patches Web Portal. Jan 11 17:13:27 dBsooner: i had a way of doing that before Jan 11 17:13:28 Rick_work: Since there doesn't need to be a change to apps for any important reason I'm betting what exists now will be kept (at least as one way) Jan 11 17:13:36 dBsooner: no one was interested Jan 11 17:13:37 Rick_work: Hush yo mouth. :) Jan 11 17:13:42 PuffTheMagic they gave them _less_ than we have already got. Jan 11 17:13:58 Rick_work: they have header for a few libs that we know nothing about Jan 11 17:14:04 PuffTheMagic: I am interested as it is the main feedback I have gotten from my Web Portal. Jan 11 17:14:08 >> libpdl << Jan 11 17:14:21 and libnapp probablyt Jan 11 17:14:21 PuffTheMagic fair enough. Please be patient for a couple of weeks. Jan 11 17:15:23 PuffTheMagic: I think we should reverse libpdl for now even though in march that will be wasted effort, there's a lot of time between now and march for non-pdk devs to be doing things Jan 11 17:15:33 Rick_work: I highly doubt type: game is going away Jan 11 17:15:35 dBsooner at MOST I would say to connect to Precentral's rating engine. but I --hate-- ratings on preware as an idea Jan 11 17:15:43 we would have to spend time and effort moderating them. Jan 11 17:16:06 nah.. self moderated for ratings Jan 11 17:16:12 just don't allow reviews. ;) Jan 11 17:16:15 type: game is pretty meaningless and has 0 security effects. It simply says to "launch native app", and the underlying implementation is where the security is Jan 11 17:16:30 and I really really want ratings Jan 11 17:16:35 destinal: i guess i can add that to my list Jan 11 17:16:39 We spend quite a lot of time moderating reviews / ratings on addons.mozilla.org, FWIW Jan 11 17:16:39 egaudet_work: ratings are easy Jan 11 17:16:52 I know people think ratings systems don't work but I disagree, I have faith in community as a whole Jan 11 17:16:54 Lots of people gaming / spamming the system Jan 11 17:16:54 we need 1 thing for ratings Jan 11 17:17:19 we need a way for preware to log into Precentra Jan 11 17:17:39 and we need the deiter to expose the rating stuff over jsonrpc Jan 11 17:17:40 or something Jan 11 17:17:48 why? Jan 11 17:17:50 i had it all setup on preware Jan 11 17:17:52 err Jan 11 17:17:55 Preyourmind Jan 11 17:17:58 oh yeah Jan 11 17:17:58 PuffTheMagic: the things I think we need most immediately (and maybe we make this into our own library) are detecting mute status and detecting when we're carded to auto pause Jan 11 17:18:12 we just need to display the median Jan 11 17:18:20 egaudet_work: wait Jan 11 17:18:24 PuffTheMagic: oh and opt-out of turbo mode Jan 11 17:18:25 egaudet_work: that is only 1/2 of a rating system Jan 11 17:18:34 egaudet_work: displaing the rating is ever easier Jan 11 17:18:42 egaudet_work: i thought u wanted to be abel to "rate" things as well Jan 11 17:18:44 from Preware Jan 11 17:18:47 PuffTheMagic: yes Jan 11 17:18:59 egaudet_work: well precentral uses Drupal Jan 11 17:19:04 i know evetrything he has setup Jan 11 17:19:11 he uses the 5star module Jan 11 17:19:19 and that info can be exported easity Jan 11 17:19:20 PuffTheMagic: I agree.. and Drupal sucks most the time. ;) Jan 11 17:19:21 easily Jan 11 17:19:23 egaudet_work: I haven't really heard of people clamoring for ratings in preware today Jan 11 17:19:25 destinal: no it dont Jan 11 17:19:40 any of you notice this: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:SDLPAL ??? Jan 11 17:19:43 egaudet_work: i had proposed an upgrade toe the feed spec Jan 11 17:19:44 PuffTheMagic: what dont? Jan 11 17:19:46 PuffTheMagic: Yeah, I would want the WebOS-Patches Web Portal to tie into the ratings system as well. Jan 11 17:19:58 dBsooner: idk how that would happen Jan 11 17:20:02 app ratings are ok but patch ratings? Jan 11 17:20:10 sure Jan 11 17:20:21 if you're going to do that, you have to rate themes too. Jan 11 17:20:28 sure Jan 11 17:20:30 destinal: I haven't heard clamoring, but for instance I personally would like it although there's not enough packages (yet) to make it an issue Jan 11 17:21:02 if you let people filter or sort on stars it has a self-selecting effect biased against newcomers Jan 11 17:21:14 I don't like it Jan 11 17:21:41 so make your app badass and people will 5 star it immediately Jan 11 17:21:45 you don't HAVE to sort by stars Jan 11 17:21:48 so you get moved to the top of the lsit Jan 11 17:21:56 dBsooner: right and then no one can ever come at you Jan 11 17:21:58 destinal: and the reverse is true without it Jan 11 17:22:00 you win by being first Jan 11 17:22:13 yes it is.. without it you don't know if its good or bad Jan 11 17:22:15 you have a biased against good/useful apps that don't need frequent updates Jan 11 17:22:23 egaudet_work: we could get "displaying of rating" in preware today if deiter would include the rating info from the 5star module in the feed Jan 11 17:22:31 i suggested a new feed spec that included ratings Jan 11 17:22:35 but it was never adopted Jan 11 17:22:35 if rating systems didn't work, no one would have them. Jan 11 17:22:42 destinal: if your app is first and it's bad it won't stay first Jan 11 17:23:11 egaudet_work: I mean competing against a good existing app can be hard, especially if there is a weighting on stars by number of raters Jan 11 17:23:16 I don't like any of these options Jan 11 17:23:22 I'm starting to wonder where the star rating would go in the list view Jan 11 17:23:24 zsockemboppers: what options Jan 11 17:23:31 ratings systems WORK, but like everything nothing is perfect. People argue against ratings in theory but I haven't seen any hard evidence that ratings systems leads to otherwise non-existant bias Jan 11 17:23:35 review options Jan 11 17:23:36 Kyusaku: the list view does not need to stay a list Jan 11 17:23:46 that was just how it was implemented "at first" Jan 11 17:23:48 destinal: I don't think there should be weight on number of raters Jan 11 17:23:50 nothing has to stay the way it is Jan 11 17:23:50 PuffTheMagic: it dont what ? Jan 11 17:24:02 let time sort things out Jan 11 17:24:06 PuffTheMagic: I think you were replying to something I said but I didn't understand what Jan 11 17:24:08 destinal: just cause oil used a list to show info does not mean it has to stay that way Jan 11 17:24:18 i was replying to Kyusaku i think Jan 11 17:24:30 and you can always have more options like "alltime rated", "this week rated", etc... Jan 11 17:24:31 but my tabbing is failing Jan 11 17:24:43 (10:18:25 AM) destinal: PuffTheMagic: oh and opt-out of turbo mode Jan 11 17:24:43 (10:19:25 AM) PuffTheMagic: destinal: no it dont Jan 11 17:24:44 heh Jan 11 17:24:51 destinal: ummm Jan 11 17:24:52 or something like that Jan 11 17:25:08 tur.. bo? Jan 11 17:25:08 oh Jan 11 17:25:20 destinal: that was for who said Drupal sucks most of the time Jan 11 17:25:24 oh Jan 11 17:25:25 lol Jan 11 17:25:27 who ever said that is the one that sucks Jan 11 17:25:58 so what I was saying before.. Jan 11 17:25:59 PuffTheMagic: the things I think we need most immediately (and maybe we make this into our own library) are detecting mute status and detecting when we're carded to auto pause and opt-out of turbo mode Jan 11 17:26:20 s/opt/to opt/ Jan 11 17:26:21 destinal meant: PuffTheMagic: the things I think we need most immediately (and maybe we make this into our own library) are detecting mute status and detecting when we're carded to auto pause and to opt-out of turbo mode Jan 11 17:26:31 destinal: isn't that already done? Jan 11 17:26:33 destinal: yeah i saw that comment ;) Jan 11 17:26:48 PuffTheMagic: yes, but agree, disagree, throw vegetables? Jan 11 17:27:20 egaudet_work: which one? I don't think any of those are done Jan 11 17:27:32 destinal: 1/2 agree Jan 11 17:27:41 destinal: i would agree that they are important Jan 11 17:27:47 but i dont think more important than anythign else Jan 11 17:27:49 destinal: have we verified the cpufreq when carded? Jan 11 17:28:00 egaudet_work: I meant opt out of turbo mode on launch Jan 11 17:28:09 after all preware wouldn't need 600mhz Jan 11 17:28:23 "detecting when we're carded to auto pause and opt-out of turbo mode" Jan 11 17:28:23 and game boy emulation certainly doesn't Jan 11 17:28:29 destinal: yeah but i have a feeling i would use my freeTether trick Jan 11 17:28:33 to fix the turbo thing Jan 11 17:28:34 :D Jan 11 17:28:39 egaudet_work: that's why I sed'd it to "and to opt out" Jan 11 17:28:48 like and also another feature we need is to opt out Jan 11 17:28:58 sorry it's hard to follow on this webchat Jan 11 17:28:59 ummm Jan 11 17:29:08 someone with a sdl game try something Jan 11 17:29:15 i thinki know how to get past this Jan 11 17:29:21 yea we really need PDL Jan 11 17:29:22 the "turbo thing" Jan 11 17:29:27 with out PDL Jan 11 17:29:58 egaudet_work: I'm not convinced yet that palm has offered opt-out of turbo. no apps now do it that I am aware of. Jan 11 17:30:01 well if we can figure out PDL to do it, it will still work once we get sandboxed Jan 11 17:30:10 and nothing from strings of pdl suggests anything about turbo Jan 11 17:30:15 it dont matter if palm offers it if my "trick works" Jan 11 17:30:20 so someone needs to test it right now! Jan 11 17:30:26 PuffTheMagic: ok I can Jan 11 17:30:28 yea I couldn't find anything about turbo or cpufreq in the libs Jan 11 17:30:59 PuffTheMagic: standing by with ssh into pre and an sdl app ready, go ahead Jan 11 17:31:45 can't we just use sysfs to un-turbo it Jan 11 17:32:06 there isn't really much to libpdl... it's really quite small Jan 11 17:32:32 destinal: mount -t tmpfs none /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq Jan 11 17:32:38 or use Jan 11 17:32:44 mount -o bind /dev/null Jan 11 17:32:54 and mount that over the scaling_cur_freq Jan 11 17:33:01 and or some of the others Jan 11 17:33:06 and just block the changing of it Jan 11 17:33:10 and also Jan 11 17:33:17 you can always mount /sys in a temp dir Jan 11 17:33:19 if u wanted to change it Jan 11 17:33:34 mount it in a place that no palm lib knows about :D Jan 11 17:33:51 thats is how freeTether keeps ip_forwarding at 1 Jan 11 17:34:05 /sekret/cave/ Jan 11 17:34:19 PuffTheMagic: all it takes is echo 500000 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_setspeed Jan 11 17:34:45 mount -o bind /dev/null /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_setspeed Jan 11 17:35:08 doesnt the lib re-set it to 600? Jan 11 17:35:09 all we have to do is wite that whenever we're uncarded and we don't have to remount things Jan 11 17:35:21 it only changes when something goes full screen Jan 11 17:35:53 well there are ways around this Jan 11 17:36:14 I think my solution is simple, effective, and not likely to break anything Jan 11 17:36:50 so the SDL patch has examples of how to listen to when the card is focused Jan 11 17:37:05 we have to detect being carded and uncarded anyway to handle pause Jan 11 17:37:27 destinal: that would create a race condition with palms lib Jan 11 17:37:42 is the app catalog unavailible for anyone else? Jan 11 17:37:49 libsdl has a lot of webos hooks in it, has anyone tried documenting them? Jan 11 17:38:10 PuffTheMagic: we could use a built-in delay, it's not critical if we run too fast 1/1000 times Jan 11 17:38:37 destinal: its still a race condition Jan 11 17:38:39 danstah: working fine for me Jan 11 17:38:50 PuffTheMagic: but not a negatively effecting one Jan 11 17:39:09 destinal: of course its not gonna segfault or anything Jan 11 17:39:17 worst case you set 500 before it goes back to 600 Jan 11 17:39:29 im just saying that unless we block the lib or use the lib properly Jan 11 17:39:34 its not guaranteed Jan 11 17:39:47 omg Jan 11 17:39:51 sure but if we block by doing stuff to the fs we block until a reboot Jan 11 17:39:51 destinal: i have another idea Jan 11 17:40:02 in case we crash or something Jan 11 17:40:05 destinal: i have another stellar idea Jan 11 17:40:13 * destinal is all ears. Jan 11 17:40:39 destinal: i could make a "cpufreq" service and i could use libinotify to monitor those files Jan 11 17:40:59 destinal: so i could have a service option that "maintains" a specified freq Jan 11 17:41:07 PuffTheMagic: I thought about that Jan 11 17:41:07 or just relays changes to the speed Jan 11 17:41:08 etc etc Jan 11 17:41:11 PuffTheMagic: inotify doesn't work on sysfs Jan 11 17:41:16 yes it does Jan 11 17:41:19 ummm Jan 11 17:41:36 it works on proc Jan 11 17:41:46 I have an idea. set it, then chattr +i the file :p Jan 11 17:41:54 CoolMatty: cant do that in /sys Jan 11 17:41:59 but inotify does work Jan 11 17:42:06 for detecting when its opened for write Jan 11 17:42:38 WHAT THE HECK just happened Jan 11 17:42:44 guys, how big a download is the make-toolchain stuff? it's hundreds and hundreds of megs, right? Jan 11 17:42:46 my battery went from like 90% to 10% in 30 seconds Jan 11 17:42:56 Rick_work: build-essential you mean? Jan 11 17:43:09 or our stuff? Jan 11 17:43:15 egaudet_work: super-turbo mode? Jan 11 17:43:16 except it didn't... but the battery icon in the top went to red and i got popup saying batter low, then i tapped the battery icon and it filled back up... WEIRD Jan 11 17:43:34 egaudet_work: something took a faulty reading or misreported Jan 11 17:43:35 it's going to explode in your pocket Jan 11 17:43:44 destinal no, when I git clone and then do make toolchain, it starts wgetting stuff. Any idea how much ??? Jan 11 17:43:47 PuffTheMagic: are you sure inotify works on /sys Jan 11 17:43:49 destinal: why would it work on proc and not sys Jan 11 17:44:02 egaudet bad contact. Jan 11 17:44:18 destinal: you cant use file locks on /sys but i am pretty sure inotify works Jan 11 17:44:21 egaudet_work: the logic to figure out how much charge is left in a battery is apparently complicated and far-from-certain Jan 11 17:44:25 Rick-home: well to start, the whole doctor image Jan 11 17:44:33 PuffTheMagic: not sure but a lot of people on mailing lists who should know seem to say it doesn't Jan 11 17:44:57 egaudet_work: I worked for a hardware manufacturer at my last job and had an interesting discussion with the hardware/system engineers about this Jan 11 17:44:59 destinal: i can make a quick test app Jan 11 17:45:02 so yeah, hundreds and hundreds of megs. Jan 11 17:45:17 Rick_work: the toolchain and the doctor image mainly Jan 11 17:45:28 s/toolchain/codesourcery toolchain/ Jan 11 17:45:31 destinal meant: Rick_work: the codesourcery toolchain and the doctor image mainly Jan 11 17:45:57 destinal I want to put in the wiki instructions some guidelines, this isn't a 5 minute download. Jan 11 17:46:16 egaudet_work: I can't guarantee you that the Pre's charging subsystem and my employers' are similar, but the guy I was talking to made assessing how much "charge" is left in a battery sound like guess-work mixed with some smoke and mirrors Jan 11 17:46:22 Rick_work: my /srv dir is 1 gig Jan 11 17:46:30 I have 10mbps connectivity, and it's going to be "a while" dev's should be aware of that and not try to start the process when they don't have time. Jan 11 17:46:36 a lot of that after decompression Jan 11 17:46:49 nt4cats: well it seems fairly reliable except for that one misread that just happened Jan 11 17:47:00 destinal so, if I said "on the order of a half-gig" that would be appropriate. Jan 11 17:47:42 destinal: do you know what file the luna is writing to when it changes to 600? Jan 11 17:47:49 egaudet_work: notice your use of the word "seems" :) One thing he said is they work hard to make the end user's view of things appear rational and get it as close to 'reality' as possible Jan 11 17:47:54 Rick_work: 208M of that is doctor, so if you already have it you can just cp it to /srv/preware/cross-compile/doctors/webosdoctorp100ewwsprint-1.3.5.jar Jan 11 17:48:13 if you do that, does the make file skip it? Jan 11 17:48:18 yeah if it exists Jan 11 17:48:29 it will go on Jan 11 17:48:42 k Jan 11 17:49:14 another 93 meg is /srv/preware/cross-compile/downloads/arm-2007q3-51-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.bz2 Jan 11 17:49:25 but most people probably won't have that handy Jan 11 17:49:50 unfortunately it's like a 10 minute download even on a fast connection because codesourcery rate-limits your download Jan 11 17:50:16 maybe more like 15 Jan 11 17:51:18 ooh my battery just lied again! Jan 11 17:52:01 PuffTheMagic: I'm almost certain that LunaSysMgr writes to /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_setspeed Jan 11 17:53:13 that's what I wrote to manually to change it anyway and that's the only /sys/devices string in LunaSysMgr Jan 11 17:54:21 egaudet: to my understanding, battery percentage is calculated by voltage and an algorithim involving the current draw Jan 11 17:55:04 PuffTheMagic: if you're poll()'ing though or if somehow inotify works, you want to see the change in /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq Jan 11 17:55:09 zsockemboppers: yes -- but voltage and draw can vary pretty drastically so you have to 'normalize' the numbers to a seemingly-rational curve Jan 11 17:56:11 nt4cats: that makes sense. although in my experience lithium batteries tend to output voltage in a pretty clean curve with no draw Jan 11 17:57:18 zsockemboppers: ... and depending on how your charging circuit works you may have varying ability to measure those values (e.g. the charging circuit we used didn't allow us to measure the actual voltage of the battery during use. We just kept track of draw and subtracted it from the theoretical charge of a 'full' battery ...) Jan 11 17:58:32 ah, interesting. Jan 11 17:58:49 zsockemboppers: I don't know if you saw my comments earlier -- I am not a hardware engineer (I'm a software guy), but worked for a compay that designed its own hardware and I had several extended discussions with a SME regarding batteries and charging Jan 11 17:59:39 I always imaged it was a lot of guessing :D Jan 11 17:59:53 destinal when I reach the step in the cross compile instructions that says /etc/init.d/procps restart I get a message about it having been converted to an upstart job ... does that mean that the command didn't work? Jan 11 18:00:36 zsockemboppers: He explained it as a lot of guessing and adjusting the reports back to the user to "look reasonable" (perception) while following the actual amount of charge/energy too. Jan 11 18:01:00 destinal: we can probably call the SDL calls that the hooks are calling for detecting pause etc... Jan 11 18:01:15 how do you start up google maps at a specific location? I saw a guy who developed an app like that Jan 11 18:01:30 I should look for the source in it Jan 11 18:01:49 jettero: you want to know what code will let you do that? Jan 11 18:02:01 yeah, ... luna-send -n 1 palm://com.palm.applicationManager/launch style Jan 11 18:03:40 jettero: The JavaScript info can be found here: http://maps.google.com/getmaps ... I don't (yet) know how to use luna-send. Jan 11 18:04:46 yeah, I don't think that helps very much. I can't find the id of the app even (it does't seem to be in /usr/palm/applications) Jan 11 18:05:36 hey everyone Jan 11 18:06:51 anyone know if there is a public homebrew feed similar to what palm is providing? Jan 11 18:07:15 for all the sweet goodies that preware makes available? Jan 11 18:07:40 jettero: The image on this app shows something that may be useful ... http://www.precentral.net/app-gallery/app-catalog/location-manager Jan 11 18:07:57 destinal: looks like it works Jan 11 18:08:45 webOSRoundup not yet. Jan 11 18:08:59 is that in the works? Jan 11 18:09:04 webOS "soon" there are of course, the IPK feeds that preware uses. Jan 11 18:09:18 but there's no xml feeds that match palm's xml feeds Jan 11 18:09:33 where can I get the IPK feeds? Jan 11 18:10:09 are you guys planning on mimicing the Palm feed at some point? Jan 11 18:10:33 it seems likely. Jan 11 18:10:40 destinal: wget http://omploader.org/vMzg3ag -O inotifytest Jan 11 18:10:45 destinal: run that on your pre Jan 11 18:10:55 then in another term write to that sys file Jan 11 18:10:57 jettero: when I put that into my browser google maps app opened up Jan 11 18:12:28 PuffTheMagic: eh, it was cool, except that Luna crashed Jan 11 18:12:43 luna crashed when u ran that? Jan 11 18:12:47 yeah, weird Jan 11 18:12:53 let me try Jan 11 18:13:07 I guess the people on the mailing list were wrong Jan 11 18:13:09 or outdated Jan 11 18:13:25 hmm it runs fine now Jan 11 18:13:36 so inotify works on /sys files now? Jan 11 18:13:46 wow. Jan 11 18:13:49 always did Jan 11 18:14:00 destinal: :D Jan 11 18:14:02 "ppl on mailing list" was greg-kh Jan 11 18:14:12 one would think he would know Jan 11 18:14:15 * PuffTheMagic tries not to say told-ya-so Jan 11 18:14:17 I think it must have not worked in the past Jan 11 18:14:26 and the kernel got updated at some point Jan 11 18:14:40 well thisis good news Jan 11 18:15:21 so we can do a binary service that watches it and we can use the service to either lock a speed by overwriting it when changed as well as report to subscribers when it changes Jan 11 18:15:53 exaqctly Jan 11 18:16:13 destinal: well there would be a frequency subscription Jan 11 18:16:28 and a "maintain freq" option Jan 11 18:16:35 as well as a some setting options Jan 11 18:16:40 for governor and what not Jan 11 18:16:50 full blow service for cpufreq :D Jan 11 18:17:00 http://inotify.aiken.cz/?section=inotify&page=faq&lang=en Jan 11 18:17:03 I wonder how low we could go (and maintain stability) Jan 11 18:17:05 PuffTheMagic: btw turbo mode changes are seen properly as expected Jan 11 18:17:12 Q: Can I watch sysfs (procfs, nfs...)? Simply spoken: yes, but with some limitations. These limitations vary between kernel versions and tend to get smaller. Please read information about particular filesystems. Jan 11 18:17:38 jacques: how's the glues? Jan 11 18:17:52 you need to lay off the glue man Jan 11 18:17:56 glue's not good for you Jan 11 18:18:06 lol Jan 11 18:18:29 so re: inotify, I'm guessing they have since added (better) support for it working with inotify? Jan 11 18:18:29 egaudet_work: I committed libGLUES_CM last night - it builds but does not stage yet - libGLUES_CM.so and glues.h need to be moved into staging - I was going to do that soon Jan 11 18:18:54 awesome, did you test any of the functionality? Jan 11 18:19:13 oh sweet, that will save me some time then Jan 11 18:19:25 egaudet_work: after that I am going to start committing ports of the GLUES tests / examples (I am breaking them out from the library package) Jan 11 18:19:53 egaudet_work: "awesome, did you test any of the functionality?" was that directed at me? Jan 11 18:19:59 yea Jan 11 18:20:11 PuffTheMagic: it would be good to have a mojo app for the service too, that way you can easily, say, lock 500 before playing sudoku to save battery Jan 11 18:20:33 destinal: yeah that would be easy Jan 11 18:20:42 destinal: maybe something I will do in Ares Jan 11 18:20:43 :D Jan 11 18:20:55 jacques: love needs glu, and it's small (230k)? Jan 11 18:20:59 I ported the cylinder example and it seems to work fine - the second I saw it working I stopped porting examples and started working on infrastructure issues to get libGLUES_CM committed, so I haven't ported any more yet Jan 11 18:21:16 zsockemboppers: can't have love without glu? Jan 11 18:21:42 destinal: correct, although technically it's ` Jan 11 18:21:52 löve Jan 11 18:21:57 s/glu/glues/ Jan 11 18:21:57 destinal meant: zsockemboppers: can't have love without glues? Jan 11 18:22:27 need glu/es for löve, yes :p Jan 11 18:22:30 egaudet_work: basically I took code from the spinning cube demo (was that yours?) and replaced the sdl init part of the cylinder example included with GLUES_CM Jan 11 18:22:49 jacques: where is this spinning cube demo you speak of? Jan 11 18:22:59 destinal: on the wiki Jan 11 18:23:00 will did it I think Jan 11 18:23:02 jacques: yea that was ported for libsdl to use gles 1.1 Jan 11 18:23:07 destinal: wiki Jan 11 18:23:09 Is there a way to let the pre use the network using the datacabe ? Jan 11 18:23:12 destinal: need the link? Jan 11 18:23:16 (network = internetsss) Jan 11 18:23:17 SN95: yes Jan 11 18:23:24 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/GLES_1.1_3D_Cube_Demo Jan 11 18:23:41 destinal: how? Jan 11 18:23:49 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Reverse_Tethering Jan 11 18:23:49 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/GLES_1.1_3D_Cube_Demo Jan 11 18:23:51 jacques: I need to port gluPerspective and gluScaleImage... does glues have those? Jan 11 18:24:05 destinal: awesome.. thanks Jan 11 18:24:09 egaudet_work: let me check ... Jan 11 18:24:13 SN95: you need a linux box for the moment connected to its USB cable and USBNet Jan 11 18:24:20 I call it reverse tethering Jan 11 18:25:19 destinal: hmm, I dont have a linux b0x.. Jan 11 18:25:26 egaudet_work: glues.h:GLAPI void APIENTRY gluPerspective(GLfloat fovy, GLfloat aspect, GLfloat zNear, GLfloat zFar); Jan 11 18:25:38 egaudet_work: glues.h:GLAPI GLint APIENTRY gluScaleImage(GLenum format, GLsizei widthin, Jan 11 18:25:43 used to be when Palm OTA patches where 100 megabytes or more I would use it to download the OTA update over an ethernet network without wifi Jan 11 18:25:48 looks like it does Jan 11 18:25:54 SN95: you could set up a linux virtualbox Jan 11 18:26:11 SN95: or you could use windows internet connection sharing Jan 11 18:26:17 if you can get usbnet working Jan 11 18:26:53 destinal when I tried to do make-stage I got a curl not available error. Jan 11 18:26:54 that would mean you could skip the linux box commands and just run the pre commands Jan 11 18:27:00 So I installed curl Jan 11 18:27:01 I'll give it a shot, thanks ! Jan 11 18:27:06 and now what do I do destinal? Jan 11 18:27:20 Rick_work: aw you need apt-get install curl Jan 11 18:27:27 did that Jan 11 18:27:28 awesome jacques :) you save me lots of port time Jan 11 18:27:44 Rick_work: uh? Jan 11 18:27:48 Rick_work: pastebin? Jan 11 18:28:13 so how are we going to install shared libs? put them in /var/usr/lib and link them to /usr/lib ? Jan 11 18:28:14 egaudet_work: actually getting GLUES to build was trivial - porting the example to prove it worked was a lot harder (for me since I haven't done SDL in a long time) Jan 11 18:28:29 Rick_work: rwhitby said he was going to change the curl reference to wget instead but I don't think that's done yet then Jan 11 18:28:51 egaudet_work: I am also working on the other libs that come int he GLUES package - libtess and libnurbs - tess I can build, nurbs will take more work Jan 11 18:28:52 destinal I tried to run make-stage again, and it starts trying to refer to scummvm -- ?????? Jan 11 18:29:11 cool cool Jan 11 18:29:36 egaudet_work: shared libs will be put in /var/local/lib and /var/local will be bind mounted to /usr/local Jan 11 18:30:38 Rick_work: it's possible that the failure to curl created a bad file that isn't working but isn't absent so not regotten Jan 11 18:30:49 egaudet_work: has anyone actually found a use for NURBS yet? I messed with them in 1988 and nothing other than demos used them then Jan 11 18:31:32 Rick_work: I will try to reproduce Jan 11 18:32:15 destinal: if that service can wait till this weekend i can whip it up then and make it nice but i have shit loads of packing to do (moving Friday) Jan 11 18:33:23 oh nice bind mounted, but should it be /var/usr/local Jan 11 18:34:04 egaudet_work: maybe, rwhitby will remember :-) Jan 11 18:35:50 PuffTheMagic: yeah, sounds cool Jan 11 18:36:23 PuffTheMagic: also I'm glad I haven't had to move in a while. it's a ton of work Jan 11 18:36:57 destinal: well most of my shit since i moved back home is still packed Jan 11 18:37:04 but i want to go though some shit too Jan 11 18:37:11 but yet moving is a pain Jan 11 18:37:35 is there anyway to get out of usb mode without removing the cable? Jan 11 18:38:38 eject the drive? Jan 11 18:38:50 or umount, depending on your os Jan 11 18:39:25 hmm I do that but the pre still is in the USB drive mode it one go out of it till I unplug the cable :P Jan 11 18:39:33 mdklein: never works for me, I suspect because of usbnet Jan 11 18:39:47 Rick_work: curl -f -R -L -o ../../downloads/libsdl-1.2.tar.gz.tmp http://palm.cdnetworks.net/opensource/1.3.5/libsdl-1.2.tgz Jan 11 18:39:47 RIck_work: make[2]: curl: Command not found Jan 11 18:40:01 yep Jan 11 18:40:03 that one. Jan 11 18:40:12 Toaster23: that's your OSes fault probably Jan 11 18:40:29 so I installed curl destinal now how do I fix it? What do I do to re-setup the make stage thing? Jan 11 18:40:32 hmm windows 7 messing up I guess :P Jan 11 18:41:11 Rick_work: strange... for me I just sudo apt-get install curl and make stage again and it's happy Jan 11 18:41:38 let me see once it's done if just rm -rf staging; make stage works or blows up Jan 11 18:42:31 staging-armv7 Error 2 Jan 11 18:42:52 Rick_work: can you pastebin a lot more context from above that line? Jan 11 18:43:05 assuming there is more Jan 11 18:43:06 can't cd to /srv/preware/cross-compile/staging/armv7/usr/lib Jan 11 18:43:44 destinal how do I pastebin an ubuntu 9.1 server virtual machine screen from a windows 7 workstation ? Jan 11 18:43:51 if you can tell me how, then sure!!! Jan 11 18:44:04 Rick_work: oh I always apt-get install openssh-server and just putty into it Jan 11 18:44:04 I can't figure out how to cut from the host os and paste into the client os. Jan 11 18:44:20 ahhhh Jan 11 18:44:23 never thought of that. Jan 11 18:44:28 good idea. Jan 11 18:44:31 if you need a graphical interface Jan 11 18:44:36 you could install xrdp Jan 11 18:44:46 and use remote desktop Jan 11 18:44:49 Lumiere: I suspect he's using ubuntu server Jan 11 18:44:49 putty will be fine. I just didn't Jan 11 18:44:52 (which allows cut/paste Jan 11 18:45:03 he's using ubuntu server :) Jan 11 18:45:08 destinal: still can install xrdp+sesman/vncserver Jan 11 18:45:16 ah Jan 11 18:45:18 Lumiere sokay putty will be fine. Jan 11 18:45:22 without X? Jan 11 18:45:26 * Lumiere has a physical desktop next to him that I am using that way Jan 11 18:45:45 destinal: installing tinyvnc-server installs the x libraries needed Jan 11 18:45:47 ok, so, destinal how do I back up to re-try the make stage? Jan 11 18:45:56 (but not a full x server) Jan 11 18:45:58 good idea but it will probably pull in lots of X packages (ubuntu server does not have X installed by default) Jan 11 18:46:17 Rick_work: try Jan 11 18:46:23 Lumiere: cool Jan 11 18:46:36 Rick_work: rm -rf /srv/preware/cross-compile/staging/ Jan 11 18:46:41 Rick_work: make stage Jan 11 18:46:54 jacques: I love it, cause I have to log out of my desktop by company policy... Jan 11 18:47:04 but my rdp client on the server can stay up Jan 11 18:47:20 Lumiere: I think I am going to try that. It might solve some issues here at work. Jan 11 18:47:37 so is there a web address where I can access the IPKG feed? Jan 11 18:48:04 webOSRoundup: which ipkg feed? Jan 11 18:48:10 Rick_work: if that doesn't work try: make clobber; make stage Jan 11 18:48:20 I found this link which hints at it Jan 11 18:48:20 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Preware_Design Jan 11 18:48:23 webOSRoundup: doesn't preware.org has a link to the feeds... Jan 11 18:48:35 let me check Jan 11 18:48:45 Rick_work: or maybe that should be make clobber; make toolchain; make stage Jan 11 18:49:01 wow chinese hot oil kicks me in the face Jan 11 18:49:25 aha! Jan 11 18:49:29 yep, I found them Jan 11 18:49:30 thanks Jan 11 18:49:46 np Jan 11 18:50:41 Rick_work: probably easiest is to make clobber; make toolchain; make stage Jan 11 18:50:50 though a bit time consuming Jan 11 18:50:57 destinal trying that now Jan 11 18:51:28 after I apt-get openssh-server how do I start it? Jan 11 18:53:16 Rick_work: it starts itself Jan 11 18:53:25 ok Jan 11 18:54:06 then how do I connect to it from the host machine, when I'm connecting to the Palm emulator I connect to loclahost 5522, but 22 doesn't seem to be responding? Jan 11 18:54:10 debian/apt has a habit of starting services immediately after they are installed Jan 11 18:54:22 222? Jan 11 18:54:24 zsockemboppers: if you installed them, you likely want to use em Jan 11 18:54:24 Rick_work: there won't be a magic NAT set up Jan 11 18:54:35 destinal and so...... Jan 11 18:54:37 Rick_work: let me find the right commands Jan 11 18:54:47 Rick_work: you could edit your virtualbox settings to make one or just get the IP address of the VM and ssh to that Jan 11 18:54:52 oooo Jan 11 18:55:00 new video released by adobe of flash gaming on the pre Jan 11 18:55:02 and I get the ip address of the vm by.... Jan 11 18:55:09 ifconfig Jan 11 18:55:09 http://welltemperedstudio.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/378/ Jan 11 18:55:10 CoolMatty hours old news Jan 11 18:55:23 Rick_work: take a look there Jan 11 18:55:35 hey, I just saw it on precentral in my google reader, sue me :p Jan 11 18:55:49 http://www.precentral.net/video-adobe-demos-flash-games-webos for those who don't continuously F5 precentral Jan 11 18:55:50 CoolMatty: you will be hearing from my attorney. Jan 11 18:55:54 Rick-home: cmon rick, lern2linux ;) Jan 11 18:56:19 zsockemboppers: uh, this is a fairly esoteric virtualbox thing Jan 11 18:56:20 Rick_work: for instance ifconfig -a or ifconfig eth0 (from the VM console) Jan 11 18:56:23 zsockemboppers that's what I'm doing. Jan 11 18:56:30 star trek voyager on my pre = win :D Jan 11 18:56:37 * Lumiere notes that the best way to pass data through Jan 11 18:56:42 jacques: according to my EULA you agreed to when you joined, you can't sue me unless you sue me in my home town of cincinnati Jan 11 18:56:44 is to use the link I posted Jan 11 18:57:02 Rick_work: just kidding around rick. anyone who gives us the kind of publicity you do gets free linux support 4 life ;) Jan 11 18:57:07 CoolMatty: d'oh! Jan 11 18:57:20 Rick_work, zsockemboppers, destinal: http://welltemperedstudio.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/378/ Jan 11 18:57:53 CoolMatty: well the EULA you agreed to by asking him to agree to an EULA says that you can't sue me unless you do it in the solar system of alpha centauri Jan 11 18:59:02 Toaster23: voyager was a horrible show. mp4? Jan 11 18:59:02 destinal ifconfig eth0 says 10.0.2.15 Jan 11 18:59:14 putty to 10.0.2.15 says "connection timed out" Jan 11 18:59:38 netstat shows ssh listening to something...... Jan 11 18:59:44 Rick_work: so, I had this problem on my win7 box and I have no idea why, but changing it to a bridged interface so it got an IP address on my local lan fixed it Jan 11 18:59:59 host only or NAT types were oddly broken for listening ports Jan 11 19:00:06 show shut it down, and change it. Jan 11 19:00:10 Rick_work: having a freeTether issue? Jan 11 19:00:27 Rick_work: yeah, shut down vm, change its network to bridged and start it up again Jan 11 19:00:48 oh just vbox issues Jan 11 19:00:57 yep Jan 11 19:01:00 I should probably come up with a walkthrough on adding magic nat entries like the webos emulator uses :) Jan 11 19:01:28 working.... Jan 11 19:01:42 If I get it done I will write up MORE to the wiki. Jan 11 19:01:45 in a sidebar for windows users Jan 11 19:02:09 how do i transfer files access the filesystem of a palm emulator. i mean transfer files or dirs. nfs (Network File System ;-) would be nice. Jan 11 19:02:15 wait, there's going to be /documentation/? that's NONSENSE Jan 11 19:02:33 I'm going to start using the IRC log as my own personal self request tracking Jan 11 19:02:42 hawiwo you could do that, you can use scp out of the box. Root no password localhost port 5522 Jan 11 19:02:44 TODO: write up virtualbox magic NAT mapping Jan 11 19:02:48 destinal: why not just set up a Trac Jan 11 19:02:52 for webos-internals devs Jan 11 19:02:59 PuffTheMagic: heh, probably a good idea Jan 11 19:03:01 as a global trac for what we need to do Jan 11 19:03:01 :D Jan 11 19:03:11 destinal: and then we can make an irc bot that talks to it Jan 11 19:03:11 :D Jan 11 19:03:29 there already are some trac irc plugins Jan 11 19:03:37 that we could modify to our needs Jan 11 19:04:39 bridged did it destinal thanks . Jan 11 19:05:00 Rick_work: I think it's probably a win7 issue and maybe to do with its firewalling? but not sure Jan 11 19:05:05 TODO: implement trac IRC support Jan 11 19:05:10 destinal: "VBoxManage setextradata %var-vmname% "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/%var-portname%/HostPort/%var-hostport% Jan 11 19:05:13 CoolMatty: :) Jan 11 19:05:17 :) Jan 11 19:05:29 Lumiere: awesome Jan 11 19:05:38 ok, make clobber make toolchain Jan 11 19:06:15 you guys are gonna love my gentoo setup once i make it public Jan 11 19:06:22 way easier than this qemu sb2 stuff Jan 11 19:06:22 that gives me an idea - could we implement an interface between infobot and the app catalog / precentral / webos-internals feeds ? Jan 11 19:06:31 can someone run a pixi console command for me? Jan 11 19:06:57 Link host-computer port 8888 to guest-computer port 80 on tcp for a VM guest called UbuDev and call it apache. Jan 11 19:07:00 VBoxManage setextradata UbuDev "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/apache/HostPort" 8888 Jan 11 19:07:03 VBoxManage setextradata UbuDev "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/apache/GuestPort" 80 Jan 11 19:07:06 VBoxManage setextradata UbuDev "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/apache/Protocol" TCP Jan 11 19:07:09 there :) Jan 11 19:07:11 that's the whole one Jan 11 19:07:31 (I had to do it a while ago for a bunch of services before I got a physical box for my linux setup) Jan 11 19:07:34 AHA unzip not found -- putty helps a lot, you can scroll up. Jan 11 19:08:00 Rick_work: so I guess for now we have to add unzip and curl to the dependencies Jan 11 19:08:09 err the wiki on what to install before setarting Jan 11 19:08:11 scrolling up is quite a priviledge Jan 11 19:08:13 first thing I do in putty (after making a session and setting my key file) is change the scrollback to like 10,000 lines lol Jan 11 19:08:14 s/seta/sta/ Jan 11 19:08:14 destinal meant: err the wiki on what to install before starting Jan 11 19:08:36 isn't zip on preware? Jan 11 19:09:03 CoolMatty: this is regarding the webos internals scratchbox2 PDK thing on ubuntu Jan 11 19:09:18 you kids and your new-fangled scrolling. bah. in my day, we had line printers - no fancy schmancy terminals - you got one line at a time on a roll of paper. and we *liked* it that way! Jan 11 19:09:25 destinal done Jan 11 19:10:11 Rick_work: only gcc? not build-essential? Jan 11 19:10:20 jacques you had LINE printers. In MY day we had little cylinders on teletypes and they smashed against the roll of paper one CHARACTER at a time, and we LIKED IT. (at 66 baud) :-) Jan 11 19:10:44 destinal ok, I'll change that. Jan 11 19:10:46 Rick_work: you win :-) Jan 11 19:10:47 and if you wanted a copy, you used carbon paper Jan 11 19:10:58 mimeograph Jan 11 19:11:17 secretary Jan 11 19:11:52 who has a pixi? Jan 11 19:11:58 destinal what's the test for build-essential tho, gcc not found ought to be enough right? Jan 11 19:12:59 I find it interesting that sb2 requires gcc and g++ to be installed even though it does not use them Jan 11 19:13:12 something about the way it does remapping I guess Jan 11 19:13:19 Rick_work: well, odds are if you have a compiler installed you probably have build-essential installed, yeah Jan 11 19:13:31 I'd just change gcc to build-essential in the apt-get Jan 11 19:13:58 destinal: to build c++ you also need g++ Jan 11 19:14:17 did destinal Jan 11 19:14:20 jacques: right build-essential will give you that Jan 11 19:14:21 (or does build-essential include that?) Jan 11 19:14:26 destinal: OK cool Jan 11 19:15:16 destinal is there some reason we don't just put those 4 apt-gets and the whole rest of the silly process into a script file and execute one command? Jan 11 19:15:29 Rick_work: no reason at all Jan 11 19:15:35 because that would be too easy Jan 11 19:15:39 apt-get install git-core build-essential curl unzip Jan 11 19:15:53 no need to do checks -- if they already have it skips Jan 11 19:15:59 right, it doesn't HURT anything Jan 11 19:16:11 and why not just script all the rest of it too? Jan 11 19:16:19 why all this silly typing? Jan 11 19:16:32 destinal: some things in cross-compile now use svn (libGLUES_CM) Jan 11 19:16:35 Rick_work: then what you're talking about is a bootstrap script Jan 11 19:16:46 nodnod Jan 11 19:16:53 what's wrong with that? Jan 11 19:17:00 nothing Jan 11 19:17:03 kk Jan 11 19:17:23 Can I use the nest-steps script as a template? Jan 11 19:17:56 well I'd use the general method from there, yeah, in terms of wget, chmod, ./ Jan 11 19:18:30 of course they'll need to sudo ./script Jan 11 19:18:32 or whatever Jan 11 19:18:58 poor ubuntu users Jan 11 19:19:12 PuffTheMagic(goSoakHead) Jan 11 19:19:17 lol Jan 11 19:19:28 yall need to see the light ... of gentoo Jan 11 19:19:29 whats wrong with ubuntu users? lol Jan 11 19:19:38 if u can use bash, you can make a ebuild Jan 11 19:19:53 PuffTheMagic: until you provide wiki articles walking through something that works as well or better you have no high ground Jan 11 19:20:34 I imagine it'd be pretty similar except the apt-get would be replaced with emerge Jan 11 19:21:08 and you'd spend 2 hours setting USE flags Jan 11 19:21:14 except that one system was designed for building things from source and excells at it Jan 11 19:21:17 CoolMatty: no Jan 11 19:21:19 PuffTheMagic: I've used ubuntu Jan 11 19:21:22 grr my pre lost 7% charge even though its plugged in Jan 11 19:21:22 idk why u guys thing that Jan 11 19:21:24 PuffTheMagic: and gentoo both Jan 11 19:21:41 people always bring up useflags, you guys are funny Jan 11 19:21:53 I used to be a huge gentoo user, but I haven't touched it in a year or two :-/ Jan 11 19:21:53 because it's true Jan 11 19:21:58 I used to run gentoo myself Jan 11 19:21:58 Toaster23: Running something in turbo mode? Jan 11 19:22:05 back when it was cool to run gentoo Jan 11 19:22:20 USE flags just set ./configure options basically Jan 11 19:22:21 Toaster23: also known as, just about any SDL app at the moment? Jan 11 19:22:26 idk why that is so hard Jan 11 19:22:32 Destinal no I was playing a video Jan 11 19:22:36 does it charge in USB mode Jan 11 19:22:36 ah Jan 11 19:22:38 I didn't say it was hard. It's time consuming Jan 11 19:22:44 I might of lost battery then Jan 11 19:22:44 CoolMatty: not really Jan 11 19:22:58 CoolMatty: gentoo desktop profile sets pretty good defaults Jan 11 19:23:02 for a desktop Jan 11 19:23:02 Toaster23: well it just means it was discharging at higher than the charge rate Jan 11 19:23:05 setting USE flags isn't really time consuming... compiling Xorg on the other hand... Jan 11 19:23:08 usb plugged into a computer charges at 500ma Jan 11 19:23:14 does it charge faster plugged into an outlet or the same as USB? Jan 11 19:23:20 is firefox still binary or are they compiling that mess now? Jan 11 19:23:22 twice the power Jan 11 19:23:24 1000ma Jan 11 19:23:31 anyway i will get instructions on how to use a gentoo chroot for this Jan 11 19:23:36 and you all will fall in love Jan 11 19:23:36 Toaster23 it charges at 1000ma IF the outlet charger shorts the data pins Jan 11 19:23:39 like zsoc did Jan 11 19:23:56 if the outlet charger does NOT short the data pins, then it doesn't KNOW it can draw more, and it charges at 500 ma Jan 11 19:23:56 USB CAN charge above 500ma, if the USB device will provide it. By spec the limit is 500ma, but there are tons of devices that exceed that Jan 11 19:24:13 PuffTheMagic: call it the PTMDK (puffthemagicdevelopmentkit) Jan 11 19:24:20 :) Jan 11 19:24:31 WebOS-Internals NDK Jan 11 19:25:04 PuffTheMagic: odds are everyone will ignore it anyway, but I'd like to try it Jan 11 19:25:32 what's so special about a gentoo chroot that you can't do via chroot on any other distro :/ Jan 11 19:25:38 PuffTheMagic: when you release it I'll definitely try it Jan 11 19:25:51 CoolMatty: you can use emerge Jan 11 19:26:13 you can use my overlay for all the packages on opensource.palm.com Jan 11 19:26:24 technically you don't need to run gentoo to use portage :p Jan 11 19:26:26 its easy to extend modify existing ebuilds Jan 11 19:26:32 CoolMatty: yes the is correct Jan 11 19:26:35 but its the easiest way Jan 11 19:26:51 Rick_work: if you get a bootstrap going I'll help test. I recommend keeping the current page as manual steps Jan 11 19:26:58 way easier than trying to teach someone to install portage from scratch Jan 11 19:27:07 I think we did the same with the next steps for optware as well but I don't remember Jan 11 19:36:36 is there a document somewhere that shows the default location for libs and includes in our 'PDK' Jan 11 19:37:27 zsoc: everything should be ${PDKROOT}/usr.... Jan 11 19:37:44 if stuff is hardcoded then people failed Jan 11 19:38:40 PuffTheMagic: got it. I haven't set it up yet so I'm preparing to consider it as an option :) if nothing else people will probably need support Jan 11 19:39:08 so /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib? Jan 11 19:39:17 nothing should be in local anything Jan 11 19:41:26 egaudet_work: you do the es patch for testgl? it's a great example for daddy gl -> es porting Jan 11 19:42:08 PuffTheMagic: I assumed this, but I've seen odd things around :p like --with-sdl-prefix=/usr/local on the wiki for the doom makefile flags Jan 11 19:42:19 yea I did Jan 11 19:43:00 I am decent at porting glBegin/glEnd code now (I think lol) Jan 11 19:43:09 my understanding is we are going to put libs in /usr/local/lib which will be bind mounted from somwhere in /var Jan 11 19:43:38 /usr/local will be bind mounted from somewhere in var Jan 11 19:44:15 egaudet_work: I have a 2d programmable shader quadrant example working I should put up. like 4 separate rectangles equidistant and with 4 separate shaders. the code might be a good example of drawing primitive on 'parts' of the surface Jan 11 19:44:29 jacques: it's basicallt a chroot, why not /usr/lib? Jan 11 19:45:07 zsoc: we don't want to contaminate /usr/lib on the webos devices Jan 11 19:45:35 we can seperate all our stuff in /usr/local Jan 11 19:45:40 not basically a chroot at all Jan 11 19:46:06 its simply adding libs to /usr/lib/ without actually messing with the actual contents on the filesystem there Jan 11 19:46:34 and stuff built with the sb2 should already be looking in /usr/local/lib for dynamic libs Jan 11 19:46:39 zsoc: put it up! Jan 11 19:46:44 why would people bind mount to /usr/local/ Jan 11 19:46:51 that is such a waste of time Jan 11 19:46:56 we probably want to get a demos/ directory going on git.webosinternals Jan 11 19:47:07 PuffTheMagic: on the Pre... why wouldn't you Jan 11 19:47:19 oh wait nm you said local Jan 11 19:47:29 to/from w/e Jan 11 19:47:32 sb2 is using /usr/local/lib for building Jan 11 19:47:40 the pre bind mounting will be to /usr/lib Jan 11 19:47:40 well that should be changed Jan 11 19:47:47 PuffTheMagic: no it shouldn't Jan 11 19:47:49 it's fine Jan 11 19:47:53 its a terrible idea Jan 11 19:48:06 why is it "terrible"? Jan 11 19:48:06 why would we want a bind over the existing /usr/lib Jan 11 19:48:11 it's not Jan 11 19:48:14 PuffTheMagic: what are you saying? what do you suggest? Jan 11 19:48:16 how would we use existing libs then? Jan 11 19:48:18 I'm so lost right now Jan 11 19:48:24 PuffTheMagic: which topic are you talking about Jan 11 19:48:48 on webos devices /usr/local will be a bind mount to /var/local (or /var/usr/local whichever) Jan 11 19:48:55 hey Jan 11 19:49:00 jacques: why> Jan 11 19:49:02 ? Jan 11 19:49:06 that is so pointless Jan 11 19:49:24 PuffTheMagic: ??? Jan 11 19:49:35 why is /usr/local being use at all? Jan 11 19:49:35 I have no idea what your point is Jan 11 19:49:45 ok yea I was mistaken Jan 11 19:49:53 where do you want to put libs which are not included with webos ? Jan 11 19:49:54 PuffTheMagic: the alternative is sym link in /usr/lib right? Jan 11 19:50:03 Happy 011011010110111101101110011001000110000101111001!! Jan 11 19:50:06 put them straigt in /usr/lib Jan 11 19:50:08 call it a day Jan 11 19:50:13 I think that's a terrible idea Jan 11 19:50:13 /usr/local/lib is a standard library path Jan 11 19:50:27 so once again we are 180 degrees apart Jan 11 19:50:28 Is there anyone here who has done stuff with evas on the pre yet? Jan 11 19:50:35 egaudet_work: we already put things in /usr/lib/BrowserPlugins which is a standard path Jan 11 19:50:51 sepi: yep Jan 11 19:50:52 and /etc/event.d Jan 11 19:50:59 PuffTheMagic: you? Jan 11 19:51:06 sepi: xcomp got expedite demo working Jan 11 19:51:13 sepi: i will be getting the libs in preware soon Jan 11 19:51:25 and i will be use evas in wIRC and the Preware2 Jan 11 19:51:25 :D Jan 11 19:51:27 the only reason not to use /usr/lib that I can think of is if we're going to try to use a lib with the same name, which is unpredictable anyway Jan 11 19:51:37 destinal: ++ Jan 11 19:51:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard Jan 11 19:51:53 egaudet_work: i know all about FHS Jan 11 19:51:54 PuffTheMagic: it seems like a cool lib to use for non web stuff like games Jan 11 19:51:58 only gentoo adheres to FHS Jan 11 19:51:59 :D Jan 11 19:52:01 but anyway Jan 11 19:52:05 technically isn't local for locally built things? Jan 11 19:52:28 destinal: i've never had a use for local Jan 11 19:52:31 ever ever ever Jan 11 19:52:47 PuffTheMagic: so how do you build stuff using evas? Using the scratchbox thing? Jan 11 19:52:51 destinal: aren't we technically using local libs here Jan 11 19:53:06 sepi: no i have a dev env in gentoo that makes this all easy as pie Jan 11 19:53:21 im not messing with this sb2 stuff Jan 11 19:53:21 egaudet_work: uh, we're no more local than palm is Jan 11 19:53:22 PuffTheMagic: using crossdev? Jan 11 19:53:24 I mean /usr/lib/ Libraries for the binaries in /usr/bin/ and /usr/sbin/. Jan 11 19:53:32 sepi: yeah crossdev + emerge wrappers Jan 11 19:53:37 emerge-wrapper Jan 11 19:53:40 or what ever it is Jan 11 19:53:53 PuffTheMagic: my gentoo laptop was stolen unfortunately, now I'm left with debian :) Jan 11 19:53:53 it allows you to use emerge with your crosstoolchain Jan 11 19:54:01 and it builts it all in a seperate root Jan 11 19:54:11 it works wonderfully Jan 11 19:54:41 still, it might be a little cleaner since we're not using the main system ipkg lib to put stuff in /usr/local/lib --- if .. . Jan 11 19:54:47 is /usr/local/lib even in LD_LIBRARY_PATH? Jan 11 19:54:49 sounds nice, but the last time I used crossdev vor avr development, it was broken Jan 11 19:54:55 unless we add /usr/local/lib to ld.so.conf, it won't work Jan 11 19:54:59 or ld.so.conf or whatever it is Jan 11 19:55:09 it's only checking /lib and /usr/lib Jan 11 19:55:18 right, so that's a strike against it. I vote /usr/lib Jan 11 19:55:31 sepi: crossdev works wonderfully, crossdev-wrapper or emerge-wrappers (whcih ever it is) keeps improving and improving but I am using it now and have had no issues at all Jan 11 19:55:41 mdklein: that was my fear Jan 11 19:55:54 destinal: my vote is on std paths also for libs that dont already exist on the pre Jan 11 19:56:10 LOL.. my bit.ly link from my tweet about the WebOS-Patches Web Portal has had almost 1000 clicks in 12 hours. Jan 11 19:56:25 if we want I suppose we can mkdir /usr/lib/webos-internals and put everything in there with symlinks from /usr/lib if we're worried about making an easily visible distinction Jan 11 19:56:32 the -rpath-link line is for findinf libs in /usr/local/lib Jan 11 19:56:36 well it's been RTed by a lot of ppl Jan 11 19:56:42 we are already doing that in sb2 build Jan 11 19:56:51 omg Jan 11 19:56:51 omg omg Jan 11 19:56:57 jacques: DONT USE -rpath Jan 11 19:56:59 that is more failure there Jan 11 19:57:08 sigh. here we go again. Jan 11 19:57:11 -rpath makes things such a pain in the ass Jan 11 19:57:16 if u need to use that your evn blows Jan 11 19:57:16 Kyusaku: 6 people Jan 11 19:57:30 does rpath cause a permanent effect in the binaries or libs it makes? Jan 11 19:57:38 Kyusaku: but the important 2 got it.. @webosinternals and @precentral Jan 11 19:57:38 I thought it was just the immediate link Jan 11 19:57:39 destinal: sure does Jan 11 19:57:54 Kyusaku: now if only I could convince the sweet Adora to do it. Jan 11 19:58:06 chuqui: !! We have a mission! Jan 11 19:58:20 destinal: -rpath def hardcodes where it searches for libs in th ebinary Jan 11 19:58:44 so we shoudl only use that in worse case scenarios Jan 11 19:58:57 like if we need to a custom version of a lib that exists already Jan 11 19:59:05 but then i think you should just static link your custom lib Jan 11 19:59:09 dBsooner: yah but one of them alone has close to 6k followers Jan 11 19:59:10 instead of messing with rpath Jan 11 19:59:10 PuffTheMagic: then we wouldn't need /usr/local/lib in ld.so.conf ? Jan 11 19:59:21 Yeah.. Adora has 2k Jan 11 19:59:24 egaudet_work: correct Jan 11 19:59:27 i beleive Jan 11 19:59:30 PuffTheMagic: so that is what we WANT Jan 11 19:59:38 umm Jan 11 19:59:39 what? Jan 11 19:59:47 PuffTheMagic: but it also means that we're artificially restricting who can use our libs to people who've built bins that way Jan 11 19:59:51 not a good thing Jan 11 19:59:57 destinal: huh? Jan 11 19:59:58 anyone object to waiting for rwhitby before hashing this out? Jan 11 20:00:08 PuffTheMagic: meant to reply to egaudet_work Jan 11 20:00:08 adding /usr/local/lib would be trivial, but I'm not sure how stable it would be between OS updates. Jan 11 20:00:27 dbSonner: haha yes maybe poke chuqui, Adora usually RTs his WebOS tweets Jan 11 20:00:28 mdklein: yes its easy but its unnecessary Jan 11 20:00:33 putting stuff in /usr/lib could also get messy if palm starts adding libs Jan 11 20:00:44 mdklein: that's true Jan 11 20:00:53 mdklein: but if the add libs that we were providing then we dont need to provide them any more Jan 11 20:00:55 Kyusaku: Chuq and I have already had the converation of him retweeting about patches.. he won't. Jan 11 20:00:57 PuffTheMagic: does -rpath-link make it look ONLY in that lib or first? Jan 11 20:00:58 its makes our libs obsolete Jan 11 20:01:00 so no issue Jan 11 20:01:02 Which I can understand. Jan 11 20:01:07 dBsooner: lose Jan 11 20:01:13 yeah Jan 11 20:01:20 mdklein: that's an argument for the /usr/local/lib Jan 11 20:01:25 egaudet_work: using rpath makes the app "expect" it in a certain location Jan 11 20:01:35 egaudet_work: and it bitches/fails if not found there Jan 11 20:01:36 egaudet_work: before Jan 11 20:01:39 He has a different position within Palm.. one that he shouldn't really publically come out and try to sway favor towards a patch Jan 11 20:01:42 say we have libGLUES_CM.so in /usr/lib, then an OTA adds it... who knows if it's guaranteed to succeed/overwrite Jan 11 20:01:42 it will search library path after Jan 11 20:01:54 But Adora on the other hand. Jan 11 20:01:54 if not found Jan 11 20:01:58 But she has been hiding lately. Jan 11 20:02:20 egaudet_work: mdklein's argument does not count cause if palm start providing a lib that we were then we can jsut stop providing it... there is then no issue Jan 11 20:02:31 destinal: so that works then no? If you build with our PDK, that's what we support...? Jan 11 20:02:54 I'm not arguing either way, I'm just bringing up issues with both Jan 11 20:02:58 PuffTheMagic: it's already on the Pre and then an OTA occurs, Jan 11 20:03:05 egaudet_work: I suppose it does work, at that, since it's just an additional path, and it means ours will override palms if both are present Jan 11 20:03:13 for our own bins only Jan 11 20:03:24 and it makes an easy way to build our own libSDL for instance Jan 11 20:03:29 without moving/backing up existing palm one Jan 11 20:03:51 what is gonna maintain /usr/local/lib in ld.preload.conf Jan 11 20:03:54 or what ever that file is Jan 11 20:04:46 hmm, if we don't maintain that file we'd need to ensure all our stuff has the rpath Jan 11 20:04:46 ld.so.conf ? why does /usr/local/lib need to be in there - that's what -rpath-link is for Jan 11 20:05:06 jacques: but how do we know that everything has rpath as of right now Jan 11 20:05:20 destinal: all of optware and the cs toolchain use rpath and when ever I use the cs toolchain it alwys fails cause stuff is not found where it is expecting Jan 11 20:05:40 PuffTheMagic: according to the docs I'm reading, rpath is supplemental Jan 11 20:05:58 egaudet_work: why would we need to build a custom libSDL? Jan 11 20:06:07 destinal: define "everything" and are we currently distributing anything that requires custom libs? if not, why would anything right now need it? and any new builds with sb2 will have that /usr/local/lib path Jan 11 20:06:28 jacques: it's not libs, but bins I'm worried about Jan 11 20:06:51 jacques: oh, that's a good point about nothing currently depending Jan 11 20:06:58 destinal: using -rpath will also force everyone to use our sdk Jan 11 20:07:00 which woudl suck Jan 11 20:07:01 egaudet_work: I have a job for you Jan 11 20:07:23 cause if u make Makefiles that have -rpath in them people you don use .../usr/local/.... have to add all this extra bs to build shit Jan 11 20:07:27 or hack up the makefiles Jan 11 20:07:30 its not every portable Jan 11 20:07:48 i'd rather have an event.d file that fixes ld_preload.conf at boot Jan 11 20:07:50 or soething Jan 11 20:07:50 idk Jan 11 20:07:51 PuffTheMagic: for things that use the added libs, yes, and that isn't very good, I agree Jan 11 20:07:55 add it to LunaSysMgr Jan 11 20:09:20 I'm open to solutions which do not require putting or linking our custom libs in /usr/lib Jan 11 20:09:41 I guess /usr/local/lib and ld.so.conf or whatever though I'm not a big fan Jan 11 20:09:46 PuffTheMagic: I don't understand your issue Jan 11 20:10:00 for one thing, /usr/lib is in / which only has 47MiB free Jan 11 20:10:01 egaudet_work: trying not to make everyone build with our PDK Jan 11 20:10:06 to use our libs Jan 11 20:10:10 You don't like the Makefile to have rpath in it? Then reconfigure with a different CFLAGS if you need to build withou tit Jan 11 20:10:15 egaudet_work: just look at the bullshit that I had to add to wIRCd to that it would build properly with the CS toolchain Jan 11 20:10:20 egaudet_work: that is a result of -rpath Jan 11 20:10:36 my vote is to stay away from /usrl/local and rpath, and deal with an OTA update that adds custom libs when it happens Jan 11 20:10:42 how about /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib/ ? Jan 11 20:10:46 PuffTheMagic: what bull was needed? Plus we have the pdk, which is very easy to use Jan 11 20:10:54 I vote to not mess with /usr/lib at all Jan 11 20:11:04 egaudet_work: i had to add all these custom cflags to get shit to build Jan 11 20:11:18 cause the cs toolchain was hardcoded to find stuff in odd locations Jan 11 20:11:29 PuffTheMagic: well that was then, now we have a PDK Jan 11 20:11:35 egaudet_work: its the same thing Jan 11 20:11:42 same issue if you use -rpath in stuff Jan 11 20:11:45 PuffTheMagic: no it isn't Jan 11 20:11:56 we use -rpath for all the sb2 builds Jan 11 20:12:22 your issue back then was trying to move from your setup to support the -rpath Jan 11 20:12:26 which breaks stuff for people that build stuff with out -rpath Jan 11 20:12:31 egaudet_work: I gues you don't want your job Jan 11 20:12:39 dBsooner: you haven't said anything Jan 11 20:12:46 egaudet_work: you are not forcing people to use the sb2 setup Jan 11 20:12:54 s/not/now/ Jan 11 20:12:55 PuffTheMagic meant: egaudet_work: you are now forcing people to use the sb2 setup Jan 11 20:13:05 THERE SHE IS! Jan 11 20:13:16 Her ear's musta been burnin Jan 11 20:13:20 not forcing people to do anything. IF you want to use custom libs, then use rpath-link, otherwise do what you want Jan 11 20:13:25 OHI Jan 11 20:13:36 egaudet_work: take all 15 of the patches submitted with the old form and submit them via the new Portal. Jan 11 20:13:38 or dont use rpath link and just change your LD_LIBRARY_PATH= before launching Jan 11 20:13:44 dBsooner: bah Jan 11 20:13:47 egaudet_work: Would make accepting them MUCH faster. Jan 11 20:13:50 dBsooner: thanks for the reminder, actually Jan 11 20:13:59 dBsooner: I'll do one Jan 11 20:14:00 egaudet_work: that would be a better solution Jan 11 20:14:01 I saw your tweet last night and made a mental note to retweet it today Jan 11 20:14:12 when normal people are actually awake and at a computer Jan 11 20:14:13 PuffTheMagic: what would be? Jan 11 20:14:18 Adora: You were up at 3am? Jan 11 20:14:23 Oh wait.. thats 1am Cali time Jan 11 20:14:26 I'm ALWAYS up at 3am Jan 11 20:14:27 egaudet_work: i am 100% agains rpath, i would be totally fine with setting LD_PRELOAD_PATH env var before launching an app Jan 11 20:14:30 even on cali time =] Jan 11 20:14:39 They call that an alcoholic. Jan 11 20:14:47 PuffTheMagic: you CAN do that... Jan 11 20:14:53 i don't understand what your issue is Jan 11 20:14:58 what do you want to do that you can't Jan 11 20:15:01 PuffTheMagic: it seems as if rpath-link and rpath are different Jan 11 20:15:10 Adora: Thanks dear. I was really suprised my email to you worked. :) Jan 11 20:15:11 LOL Jan 11 20:15:26 I really mean to be on irc all the time, I just forget to reconnect sometimes Jan 11 20:15:27 but it shows how fast me personal Exchange server is at getting a message to @palm servers. Jan 11 20:15:40 and have been on vpn a lot lately, which I can't do at the same time =[ Jan 11 20:15:47 Aww. Jan 11 20:15:50 dBsooner: btw what is teh FIRST patch in my email that has yet to be submitted? Jan 11 20:15:52 egaudet_work: forget it... i will stay out of this and just do my thing like always Jan 11 20:16:11 oh Jan 11 20:16:11 PuffTheMagic: I'm trying to figure out your concern, no need to "stay out". I just dont know what it is yet Jan 11 20:16:15 egaudet_work: let me look Jan 11 20:16:36 egaudet_work: Emoticons using Sym Key Jan 11 20:16:43 then Emoticons using sym key reversed Jan 11 20:16:51 from the 7th Jan 11 20:17:09 * dBsooner has been busy doing the new portal so hasn't had time to commit new patches to the feed. Jan 11 20:17:22 s/doing/making/ Jan 11 20:17:36 * dBsooner slaps infobot.. fix EMOTES too Jan 11 20:17:50 Most of the patches i find useful all have to do with the app launcher Jan 11 20:17:59 then again I only use a handful Jan 11 20:18:28 i use about 50 Jan 11 20:18:30 egaudet_work: my concern is that everything that I have used that uses -rpath does not play well with stuff that did not use rpath... for example, you build a custom SDL (which itself uses other libs like libcurses.so) then your custom SDL will expect libncurses.so in some wonky path Jan 11 20:18:35 But really don't care about most. Jan 11 20:18:48 i dont want to Maintain 2 makefiles for each project Jan 11 20:18:55 1 for rpath setups and 1 for non-rpath setups Jan 11 20:19:23 PuffTheMagic: I don't think that is accurate. Jan 11 20:19:45 BTW Adora: LOVE the new avatar. Jan 11 20:19:59 dBsooner: thxies =] Jan 11 20:20:06 puff: so we need the ld conf and all is universal? Jan 11 20:20:08 If you want to build libSDL, and you use our PDK it will use rpath-link. If you dont' want to use rpath-link you don't have to use the PDK. And if you do use the PDK then all the libs will be found Jan 11 20:20:17 I need to fly that photographer to good old oklahoma to have her do a shoot for my wife. Jan 11 20:20:19 I do NOT see any problems Jan 11 20:20:22 icka (the photog) is one of my favorite artists ever Jan 11 20:20:29 PuffTheMagic's problems seem to be from before the PDK... Jan 11 20:20:45 the PDK does not solve this issue Jan 11 20:20:53 if the toolchain in the PDK is using rpath Jan 11 20:21:01 rpath-link or rpath ? Jan 11 20:21:15 bpadalino|work: i dont know which one is the evil one Jan 11 20:21:16 Adora: well tell icka she does wonderful work. Jan 11 20:21:18 its rpath something Jan 11 20:21:31 rpath is the bad one which overrides your environment Jan 11 20:21:41 bpadalino|work: yeah and that is what people want to use i beleive Jan 11 20:21:44 rpath-link adds directories for the linker to search for shared libs Jan 11 20:21:47 PuffTheMagic: can you come up with an example please Jan 11 20:22:07 PuffTheMagic: no we are not using rpath, we are using rpath-link Jan 11 20:22:16 * PuffTheMagic goes back to packing Jan 11 20:22:22 do what ever you want with sb2 Jan 11 20:23:57 so it sounds like we really haven't decided how to handle things yet Jan 11 20:25:10 i don't know what is being argued .. but i do think that, currently, rpath-link appears to be the correct way to do things and avoids hardcoding Jan 11 20:26:21 I agree Jan 11 20:26:45 like I said I am open to solutions which do not require mods to /usr/lib and the -rpath-link is the best I have seen so far Jan 11 20:29:18 bpadalino|work: but we aren't using this method yet? Jan 11 20:29:35 so how are we going to migrate the current 'pdl' users? Jan 11 20:29:39 zsoc: in the sb2 PDK yeah Jan 11 20:29:41 we are Jan 11 20:29:47 pdl? Jan 11 20:29:49 rpath link could get screwy if we decide to move libraries in the future though, right? Jan 11 20:30:09 mdklein: same as anythign else I assume Jan 11 20:30:13 oh hm Jan 11 20:30:39 well, editing ld.so.conf and running ldconfig is a lot quicker than recompiling everything? Jan 11 20:30:51 mmmm ld Jan 11 20:31:20 mdklein: yes but I don't see any reason we'd move from /usr/local Jan 11 20:31:26 it only had 40mb? Jan 11 20:32:08 I would also like to avoid having to make / writable - as in editing /etc/ld.so.conf and running ldconfig which needs to write to /etc/ld.so.cache Jan 11 20:32:14 and in that rare situation it wouldn't be terribly difficult to rebuild all the custom libs and bump the versions for preware update Jan 11 20:32:57 oh, this is all about when you add custom libs to the platform ? Jan 11 20:33:01 mdklein: the bind mount /var/local/ (or /var/usr/local) -> /usr/local is to get around the low free space in / Jan 11 20:33:03 And remember we are only talking about custom shared libs Jan 11 20:33:04 yea bpadalino|work Jan 11 20:33:09 bpadalino|work: yeah Jan 11 20:33:39 jacques: where's that mount created? I'm not seeing it on my pre Jan 11 20:34:03 mdklein: it's not yet. Jan 11 20:34:25 I'm just wondering if "/media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib" would be a better place for libs... it's where palm is storing their future BrowserServerPlugins if the /etc/palm/browser-app.conf is to be believed Jan 11 20:34:49 what filesystem is that? vfat ? Jan 11 20:35:01 no symlinks then (which we need) Jan 11 20:35:06 it's where palm stores apps now Jan 11 20:35:10 and probably other missing fs features Jan 11 20:35:35 it's part of the cryptofs which should have full fs features i thought Jan 11 20:35:46 you can chmod and chown in cryotofs i thought Jan 11 20:35:58 I thought so too :-/ but I can't do links... it's not vfat Jan 11 20:36:02 hrm Jan 11 20:36:13 so yeah, that won't work Jan 11 20:36:28 back Jan 11 20:36:36 looong weekend Jan 11 20:37:21 xcomp: where's your first custom evas app? :) Jan 11 20:37:45 I just tried a symlink in /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib and it says operation not permitted but I agree I can't tell which fs it is ... Jan 11 20:38:02 dBsooner: are you relentless? Jan 11 20:38:05 * Adora contemplates Jan 11 20:38:06 I know nothing about cryptofs Jan 11 20:38:24 I don't think you are relentless Jan 11 20:38:26 you're something else Jan 11 20:38:31 zsoc: comming soon :) Jan 11 20:38:47 first I need to get the package stuff completed so it can go into repo Jan 11 20:38:49 wow, fuse Jan 11 20:39:09 wonder why palm went with fuse.cryptofs instead of luks Jan 11 20:39:17 maybe they're the same Jan 11 20:39:38 cryptofs is same as base fs Jan 11 20:39:44 vfat in this casw Jan 11 20:39:48 case Jan 11 20:40:23 I guess rwhitby isn't here Jan 11 20:40:29 luks coulda been vfat Jan 11 20:40:31 I wanted to ask him to stage headers for openssl and gnutls Jan 11 20:40:43 so it's same as /media/internals Jan 11 20:40:45 xcomp: he should be soon Jan 11 20:41:12 cool ... meanwhile I'll try and fetch the headers myself Jan 11 20:41:17 yeah, it seems that way, that sucks Jan 11 20:41:18 s/ls/l/ Jan 11 20:41:20 destinal-pre meant: so it's same as /media/internal Jan 11 20:41:26 * mdklein nods Jan 11 20:41:31 ok, so that won't work Jan 11 20:41:59 I just don't see 40mb or even 140mb as that much room for libs :-p Jan 11 20:42:10 but we have to work with it I guess Jan 11 20:42:52 well no Jan 11 20:43:10 we can make all symlinks in /usr/lib Jan 11 20:43:27 I don't want to modify /usr/lib at all Jan 11 20:43:27 to internal or wherever Jan 11 20:43:32 destinal please check pdk page now. Jan 11 20:43:42 Adora: why do you say that? Jan 11 20:43:47 Adora: what did I do this time? Jan 11 20:43:52 dBsooner: you'll see in a sec Jan 11 20:44:01 I decided you're "ardently active" instead Jan 11 20:44:04 we can make all symlinks in /var/usr/local/lib to internal Jan 11 20:44:09 lol.. Jan 11 20:44:13 * dBsooner is worried. Jan 11 20:44:15 right that Jan 11 20:45:10 what? dBsooner worry?! Jan 11 20:45:12 so put the actual lib in /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib/ (or maybe /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/local/lib to avoid OTA overwrites etc...) and then link them in /var/usr/local/lib/ which is bind mounted to /usr/local/lib/ Jan 11 20:45:31 adora likes big words Jan 11 20:45:40 egaudet_work: yeah. as long as we don't touch /usr/lib, and we don't add the libs to the / partition (with only about 46MiB free) I don't care so much if the libs are in /var or /media/something Jan 11 20:45:58 kyusaku: indubitably Jan 11 20:46:35 dBsooner should check his twitter feed to see Adora's surprise Jan 11 20:46:53 sounds like a decent idea destinal Jan 11 20:47:24 twitter should encourage good vocabulary for precision, brevity Jan 11 20:47:42 very little room Jan 11 20:47:55 great to know someone else is concerned about where to put all these new libs Jan 11 20:47:57 heh I keep forgetting not everyone has a 2GiB /var Jan 11 20:49:25 should we avoid gtk? Jan 11 20:49:49 should we avoid anything? Jan 11 20:50:02 no Jan 11 20:50:13 and no Jan 11 20:50:14 anyone know how to save game data if I am getting my pre replaced? Jan 11 20:50:32 is. asphalt 5 game data...? Jan 11 20:50:32 woohoo and awww.. at the same time.. I am greatly respectful of the tweet.. but at the same time slightly disappointed as I was hoping the surprise was more picutres from the photoshoot where her avatar came from. (@Adora, @Kyusaku) Jan 11 20:51:10 But, having a high powered @Palm player tweet about @webosinternals stuff is SOOO awesome. Thanks Adora! :) Jan 11 20:51:25 am I the only one who thinks tweeting sounds stupid? Jan 11 20:51:38 destinal-pre: definitely not Jan 11 20:51:39 Do you know what tweeting partners are? Jan 11 20:51:43 "tweeps" Jan 11 20:51:44 :) Jan 11 20:51:51 or tweeting friends I should say. Jan 11 20:52:38 ~dict ardently Jan 11 20:52:41 Dictionary 'ardently' (2): in an ardent manner; "the spirit of God knew very well that there was a deeper question to be settled before there could be the intervention in power that was so ardently desired" ;; \Ar"dent*ly\, adv. In an ardent manner; eagerly; with warmth; affectionately; passionately. [1913 Webster]. Jan 11 20:52:50 for twitterers you could abbreviate.. uh.. twits? :) Jan 11 20:53:03 tweeter culture is so .... weird. Jan 11 20:53:08 Adora must have a Thesaurus. Jan 11 20:53:51 xcomp: twITter culture Jan 11 20:53:57 Just sayin. Jan 11 20:54:09 she could simply be eloquent. Jan 11 20:54:18 Or well educated. Jan 11 20:54:33 dBsooner: "high powered palm player?" Jan 11 20:54:35 dBsooner: I prefer to think you're fervent xD Jan 11 20:54:36 laffo =] Jan 11 20:54:50 or poorly educated but highly versatile in the english language. Jan 11 20:54:56 zsoc: fervent, that's another good one! Jan 11 20:55:02 * Adora starts a list Jan 11 20:55:08 ~dick fervent Jan 11 20:55:09 Adora: well you are a popular icon in the Palm community Jan 11 20:55:10 beats dbsooner with a fervent Jan 11 20:55:10 WOOPS Jan 11 20:55:19 ~dict fervent Jan 11 20:55:21 Dictionary 'fervent' (1 of 5): extremely hot; "the fervent heat...merely communicated a genial warmth to their half-torpid systems"- Nathaniel Hawthorne; "set out...when the fervid heat subsides"- Frances Trollope . Jan 11 20:55:26 can someone port Duke3D to the pre for me ;( Jan 11 20:55:40 dBsooner: hahaha, make that an alias! Jan 11 20:55:43 dBsooner: HAHAHA you said dick. Jan 11 20:55:51 psykoz: what is the point Jan 11 20:55:53 offering cash? Jan 11 20:55:58 ok that's my queue to get some work done.. Jan 11 20:56:00 our control's for all these games blow Jan 11 20:56:07 s/queue/que/ Jan 11 20:56:08 :) Jan 11 20:56:08 jacques meant: ok that's my que to get some work done.. Jan 11 20:56:12 infobots definitions are _terrible_ Jan 11 20:56:13 Puff, I'm doing okay with Quake's onscreen controls Jan 11 20:56:19 cue Jan 11 20:56:25 lol Jan 11 20:56:27 destinal-pre: thanks Jan 11 20:56:33 i dont think they are that playable Jan 11 20:56:37 :) Jan 11 20:56:47 more of a gimmic Jan 11 20:56:54 look and what the pre can do Jan 11 20:56:57 Puff, playable like on a PC, no... playable as in I will enjoy it while idling around without my PC, yes Jan 11 20:57:06 ya Jan 11 20:57:07 PuffTheMagic: better suggestions? tilt for strafe? Jan 11 20:57:13 I find quake playable and fun Jan 11 20:57:15 needs remote Jan 11 20:57:19 I'm several levels into Quake with lots of health etc Jan 11 20:57:20 I am surprised that noone used the accel to do tilting for movement Jan 11 20:57:34 destinal-pre: if it needs extra hardware to play its pretty pointless Jan 11 20:57:35 Whats up guys........ I like the onscreen controls for quake Jan 11 20:57:48 Lumiere: we did, just not for fps Jan 11 20:57:51 not really Jan 11 20:57:56 lets see, play unreal on my Pre with my ps3 controller... or play unreal on my ps3 with my ps3 controller Jan 11 20:58:01 ... on a 56" hd tv Jan 11 20:58:02 PuffTheMagic: I agree with no hardware Jan 11 20:58:15 zsoc: supertux uses it :) Jan 11 20:58:22 the only games that are woth it are really simple games Jan 11 20:58:26 is nature of fps Jan 11 20:58:27 demanding on controls Jan 11 20:58:41 that can be adapter to tilt controls and simple taps Jan 11 20:58:51 like tuxracer Jan 11 20:59:08 and space invaders Jan 11 20:59:09 and breakout Jan 11 20:59:10 * Lumiere thinks you could do quake and doom with tilt controls and taps... Jan 11 20:59:11 etc. Jan 11 20:59:13 TUXRACER Jan 11 20:59:15 <3 Jan 11 20:59:56 No Jan 11 21:00:00 I don't believe that one bit Jan 11 21:00:13 Tie Fighter! Jan 11 21:00:13 I'm enjoying playing quake on my Pre with the latest controls overlay Jan 11 21:00:36 tie fighter could be a ton of fun with just a tilt control Jan 11 21:00:36 it'd be a little esier to manage if the overlay was slightly larger than my thumbs so I could see the joystick direction better, but all in all it's actually fun Jan 11 21:00:40 yes do want Tie Fighter Jan 11 21:00:42 seriously. tuxracer Jan 11 21:00:45 I play, save, come back to it later rinse/repeat Jan 11 21:00:47 or X-Wing Jan 11 21:00:50 tuxracer would be good with tilt controls Jan 11 21:00:57 egaudet is working on tuxracer Jan 11 21:01:15 Kyusaku: or the old X-Wing vs Tie Fighter? Jan 11 21:01:42 Lumiere :everyone that i have talk to that played it on iphone and it was accel movement said the game was a horrible expeirance Jan 11 21:01:49 Lumiere: whatever works, I had X-Wing and TIE Fighter way before X-wing v TIE Fighter Jan 11 21:01:56 Kyusaku: yea Jan 11 21:01:58 PuffTheMagic: the tilt-controlls are not very precise [..] like "stop under this cover" [..[ "you mean, go right past it and die?" [..] "no, thats not what i wanted" Jan 11 21:02:04 my thoughts exactly Jan 11 21:02:15 destinal: that explains it well :) Jan 11 21:02:42 Tie Fighter > X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter Jan 11 21:02:46 ok Jan 11 21:02:49 I actually didn't realize they moved tuxracer to extreme tux racer Jan 11 21:02:58 Tie Fighter definitely > Xwing anything Jan 11 21:03:56 egaudet_work: cause extreme makes everything better Jan 11 21:04:01 port FFE! Jan 11 21:04:07 The iphone version (tux rider world challenge) is semi-working, main issues being: haven't gotten screen to landscape yet and title screen's text are drawn too high for some reason so the selection boxes aren't where the text is Jan 11 21:04:07 I went back and looked at some screenies and it would display just fine on the Pre, tilt controls for joystick and a few simple gestures for targeting and you're golden Jan 11 21:04:08 that'd be awesome Jan 11 21:04:20 the TRWC port is in git Jan 11 21:04:22 FFE would be awesome =) Jan 11 21:04:28 I have been working on etracer port from scratch Jan 11 21:04:36 Could use the keyboard for more advanced controls, but you really don't need them. Jan 11 21:04:40 ya'll are too young to remember elite Jan 11 21:05:35 egaudet_work: is it opengl_es? Jan 11 21:05:52 destinal: the TRWC one in git is yeah. I'm porting etracer from GL to GLES Jan 11 21:05:53 <_lance_> i'm doing my first optware build.. i'm not sure where the config files go when building the package. any ideas? Jan 11 21:06:02 <_lance_> i tried stuffing it in staging/opt/etc/ Jan 11 21:07:53 PuffTheMagic: I think for space invaders, using a drag left / right would be cool. or tap where you want piece to go maybe and it moves at its speed Jan 11 21:08:03 and second tap for fire Jan 11 21:08:48 drag on screen for direction Jan 11 21:08:52 tap on gesture area Jan 11 21:08:54 for fire Jan 11 21:09:37 or what destinal said, tap on screen for where to move to + tap on gesture area for fire Jan 11 21:10:01 psykoz: you don't like second tap anywhere? Jan 11 21:10:17 there are five mice, after all Jan 11 21:10:22 second tap for fire seems cumbersome for firing multiple bullets Jan 11 21:10:38 five mice? Jan 11 21:10:45 yeah we get five point multitouch Jan 11 21:10:55 I was thinking one finger drags and second finger fires Jan 11 21:11:07 oh, gotcha, hold one finger while dragging and second tap = fire Jan 11 21:11:21 yeah, less movement of fingers required Jan 11 21:11:53 it could even adaptively "get" that a lone tap is fire too Jan 11 21:11:59 (when not a drag) Jan 11 21:12:04 that's fine too, i'd probably in case of "simple" controls games allow multiple means, like you could still have second tap with drag + gesture area = fire as well Jan 11 21:12:15 sure, gesture area as well, why not Jan 11 21:12:15 or that too Jan 11 21:12:28 redundancy never huts Jan 11 21:12:34 single tap = fire, drag = move, drag + tap = fire Jan 11 21:12:46 (or second tap as you called it) Jan 11 21:13:16 destinal: dragging would make it hard to shoot Jan 11 21:13:25 destinal: i know how i can improve the tilt controls Jan 11 21:13:27 PuffTheMagic: even with second finger tap? Jan 11 21:13:41 I'm simulating drag+second tap and it feels comfy to me Jan 11 21:13:42 actually I suggest tap gesture area for fire, hold for spam fire :) Jan 11 21:13:55 well hold second finger should fire too Jan 11 21:14:05 so move and fire could just be double drag Jan 11 21:14:09 destinal: hold second finger where? Jan 11 21:14:13 PuffTheMagic: anywhere Jan 11 21:14:17 on screen, gesture area, anywhere Jan 11 21:14:17 double drag? Jan 11 21:14:22 PuffTheMagic: multitouch! Jan 11 21:14:53 if you have to hold you phone with 1 hand and with finger on the other hand it makes it impossible to shoot and move Jan 11 21:15:05 No way Jan 11 21:15:08 thumb Jan 11 21:15:09 and tapping on the screen means you cant see shit Jan 11 21:15:14 gesture area Jan 11 21:15:25 psykoz: what? Jan 11 21:15:26 and you don't have to see the whole screen in space invaders Jan 11 21:15:29 I wonder Jan 11 21:15:33 psykoz: sure you do Jan 11 21:15:38 if we get multitouch on gesture area Jan 11 21:15:51 <_lance_> Whew.. okay, worked out where to stuff the conf Jan 11 21:15:51 destinal: nope Jan 11 21:15:57 :( Jan 11 21:15:57 destinal: gesture area is a keyboard event Jan 11 21:16:02 not a mouse Jan 11 21:16:11 right now at least Jan 11 21:16:11 PuffTheMagic: sure but I remember Rick_work saying it registered as screen too Jan 11 21:16:43 maybe only if you tap above gesture area and drag down into it Jan 11 21:16:46 what are peoples issues with tilt control on invaders? Jan 11 21:16:56 besides sensitivity and acceleration rate Jan 11 21:16:59 I LIKE TILT Jan 11 21:17:02 cause that can all be improved Jan 11 21:17:06 and customizable Jan 11 21:17:41 Puff, destinal is saying drag on x-axis left/right = movement, if ((drag == active) && (tap_screen || tap_gesture)) then fire; if ((drag == active) && (screen_hold || gesture_hold)) then fire; Jan 11 21:18:26 psykoz: i still dont get how you can hold your pre, drag and tap at the same time Jan 11 21:18:36 sounds like u need an extra hand Jan 11 21:18:46 left thumb drag, right thum tap Jan 11 21:18:48 thumb* Jan 11 21:19:14 you would cover up half the screen to get the drag to register properly Jan 11 21:19:39 * PuffTheMagic is surprised no one has said vol up + down for movement Jan 11 21:19:42 PuffTheMagic: not really, just a thin bar at the bottom Jan 11 21:19:46 I never watch my ship anyway, I watch its bullets ;) Clearly you don't play space invaders ;) Jan 11 21:19:59 bullets tell you where your spaceship was *grins* Jan 11 21:20:03 PuffTheMagic: that's a clever thought Jan 11 21:20:19 I wonder how that could be used in other games Jan 11 21:20:23 can we steal volume up / down from Luna? Jan 11 21:20:24 destinal: my thumb is over does not have "thin line" resolution Jan 11 21:20:36 destinal: they register as event in /dev/input Jan 11 21:20:36 * Lumiere wants lemmings :) Jan 11 21:20:39 i can listen to that directly Jan 11 21:20:50 idk if i can prevent the volume thing from comming up though Jan 11 21:21:10 I really want hidd code ... sigh Jan 11 21:21:18 stupid closed source binary Jan 11 21:21:32 i think people dont like tilt controls need to articulate what they dont like about it so that i can fix/improve that issue Jan 11 21:21:41 s/dont/that dont/ Jan 11 21:21:43 PuffTheMagic meant: i think people that dont like tilt controls need to articulate what they dont like about it so that i can fix/improve that issue Jan 11 21:22:25 PuffTheMagic: I just want more precision than I think you can easily get with gravity Jan 11 21:22:27 my pre has been 3 minutes fast today .. and i don't know why Jan 11 21:22:30 and having speed at once Jan 11 21:23:10 accel works great for a ball because residual spin maps to physical environment Jan 11 21:23:20 as a joystick that inertia is undesirable Jan 11 21:23:28 s/inertia/momentum/ Jan 11 21:23:30 destinal meant: as a joystick that momentum is undesirable Jan 11 21:23:34 I think thats the wrong question. If I don't like it, that's not fixable. (figurative "I". I don't think I'd like it myself but but I mostly don't think I'd care since I mostly don't play games. Jan 11 21:24:21 though, I always wanted non-stupid controls for SpyHunter on treo/centro and never got them... Jan 11 21:24:22 PuffTheMagic: I guess it _may_ be possible and I just haven't seen it done yet Jan 11 21:24:32 too bad we have no trackball Jan 11 21:25:14 on the subject of the touchscreen, after seeing the MOTO guys way to test your screens accuracy for jogging Jan 11 21:25:17 Perfectly good buttons and dpad, not being used ,and not configurable enough in the game to get them Jan 11 21:25:28 the Pre looks to be just as good as iphone's touchscreen in comparison to other phones that have crappy touchscreens Jan 11 21:25:48 KEYofR: dpad? Jan 11 21:25:58 oh on centro? Jan 11 21:26:07 D-pad, 5-way nav Jan 11 21:26:25 wish we had one here Jan 11 21:26:56 destinal: i understand you want more percision but that tilt makes it "harder"... its like playing a fps with mouse vs. ps3 controller, sure mouse is more accurate, its almost fake/cheating, using a ps3 controlle is still fun if you arent playing against a mouse user Jan 11 21:27:07 anyway, I like tilt movement in space invaders but I don't think I would like it nearly as much as onscreen dragging, the dragging could be anywhere on the screen, maybe when the aliens are mostly towards the bottom I"ll be dragging m y finger left/right across the top Jan 11 21:27:14 i think your potential for accuracy is greater for tilt Jan 11 21:27:18 cause fingers are fat Jan 11 21:27:36 destinal: i just need a better transform for the tilt coordinates into game movements Jan 11 21:27:40 destinal: what i have now is very crude Jan 11 21:28:47 PuffTheMagic: ok, I'll agree that it may be possible to get better but I have some prejudice against accelerometers mapped to directional movement. if you're modeling something in game that has an analogue to the gravity the pre's experiencing I think accelerometers are great Jan 11 21:29:23 destinal: think about it as a level of complexity for the game Jan 11 21:29:39 dont want to make it so easy that you beat it too fast and its no longer fun Jan 11 21:29:48 egaudet_work: replied to your reply on the WPWP thread. Jan 11 21:30:13 actually I can see now I would hate tilt for control of that game. It leads to riduculous levels of tilting which is only good for others to make jokes about. Jan 11 21:30:34 like how people tilt plain old nes controllers Jan 11 21:30:56 KEYofR: I used to tilt my atari controller Jan 11 21:31:13 Is there a place to post wIRC bugs? Jan 11 21:31:23 besides there using it in a car etc. no tilt. Jan 11 21:32:24 But I want sdlterm before any game! !!!!! can I shove any money at you to finish that? Jan 11 21:33:10 chrisa: Trac Jan 11 21:33:57 or is this game part of the learning process to get to a terminal? Jan 11 21:34:35 no, there isn't much magic in creating a terminal, however a terminal isn't fun, games are ;) Jan 11 21:35:21 dBsooner: nice tweet from webOSDev ... Jan 11 21:35:23 In fact.. I think I am doomed for life because the old school tilting (which did aboslutely nothing) has made it to where I can't do the sensitive crap on the real tilt's. Jan 11 21:35:35 rwhitby: I saw that! Adora is my favorite person right now. Jan 11 21:36:06 rwhitby: good morning btw Jan 11 21:36:08 dBsooner: you misspelled "most favoritist" :) Jan 11 21:36:17 I guess I should take some screenshots and post a trac ticket then Jan 11 21:36:27 * Adora blushes Jan 11 21:37:15 (OT: dammit, I have the Spy Hunter theme in my head now) Jan 11 21:37:24 lol Jan 11 21:38:19 Adora: we just need to convince @Palm to RT yours now. webOSDev is close enough.. but @Palm is the like, umm, crem de la crem (how ever that's spelled)... Or like the Holy Grail. Jan 11 21:38:30 hehe.. .I should load that up in classic and see if it even runs. Jan 11 21:38:37 dBsooner: he watches what chuq and I tweet Jan 11 21:38:59 rwhitby: speaking of Trac.. I have earmarked your name about 6 hours ago. Jan 11 21:39:16 if he thinks it's valuable for Joe User (and not too hard to understand), he'll RT Jan 11 21:39:18 Adora: who @palm or @webosdev? Jan 11 21:39:23 @palm Jan 11 21:39:26 RT? Jan 11 21:39:51 retweet Jan 11 21:39:53 pfft.. Joe User = Aunt Minnie = Not really able to understand patching. Jan 11 21:40:03 oh, I'm not a twitter expert ;) Jan 11 21:40:13 @palm has retweeted stuff about themes before, though Jan 11 21:40:35 WTF? Really? The most dangerous piece of home brew out there.. Jan 11 21:40:49 * dBsooner goes to Sunnyvale to poke @palm. Jan 11 21:41:12 easy mistake Jan 11 21:41:21 chrisa: yeah we have a Trac setup for wIRC Jan 11 21:41:22 me neither I don't evenn have a twitter account. I'm just repeating a word I've heard and vaguely assume it's like seeing a friends facebook status and reposting it so all your friends see it too. Jan 11 21:41:25 I'd never even thought about it, but I can see how that would be true Jan 11 21:41:25 which part? Jan 11 21:41:37 chrisa: we already know that non acsii characters break things Jan 11 21:41:40 KEYofR: correct =] Jan 11 21:41:42 thats up there on my todo list Jan 11 21:41:44 chrisa: what's the bug Jan 11 21:42:02 the Themes? Yeah.. they can reek havoc on a device if not properly removed BEFORE running EPR or updating WebOS. Jan 11 21:42:09 chrisa: http://git.webos-internals.org/trac/wIRC Jan 11 21:42:09 Try connecting to gamesurge via wirc Jan 11 21:42:37 chrisa: what are you using for a username for the server? Jan 11 21:42:39 and if you ask egaudet_work, he'll just say the reek havoc period. Jan 11 21:42:53 I've never installed a theme, personally Jan 11 21:43:02 I did once. Jan 11 21:43:07 But had a nightmare getting it off. Jan 11 21:43:11 So that is why I don't do it anymore. Jan 11 21:43:16 I'm happy with the default UI, except for stuff that needs to be patched Jan 11 21:43:19 I tried some themes but they make bad icons for specific apps as replacement Jan 11 21:43:28 and it becomes hard to know if that icon is the 'phone' icon Jan 11 21:43:29 Adora: how many patches do you use? Jan 11 21:43:31 or not Jan 11 21:43:35 but that's more UX Jan 11 21:43:38 I haven't had a problem since themes bacame packaged and preware-installable. Jan 11 21:43:51 Ok, it works with any random value in the user field in advanced Jan 11 21:43:58 But if left blank as default, it won't connect Jan 11 21:44:07 themes are the evil Jan 11 21:44:09 they make no sense Jan 11 21:44:13 (as is) Jan 11 21:44:20 yeah themes are easy to install via preware, but egh they're sorta gay overall Jan 11 21:44:30 chuqui: WAKE UP! Jan 11 21:44:37 chuqui: Why you havin a bad day now? Jan 11 21:44:49 I mostly just use one, Wood, and that particular one seems to always uninstall and reinstall without a blip. But I've been careful to do things in the right order. Jan 11 21:44:51 chuqui is having an out of mind experience at the moment, please attempt your ping later Jan 11 21:45:09 (yawn) stretch... Jan 11 21:45:12 someone calling? Jan 11 21:45:12 dBsooner: 26 patches Jan 11 21:45:21 Awesome.. it's a great time to hijack his twitter and retweet Adora's dBsooner tweet. Jan 11 21:45:23 chrisa: if user field is left blank it won't connect? Jan 11 21:45:24 I'm not having a bad day. I'm having a strange day. Jan 11 21:45:32 On that server, correct Jan 11 21:45:32 it's good strange... Jan 11 21:45:33 well more so @webosinternals AND dBsooner Jan 11 21:45:37 Most servers don't appear to care Jan 11 21:45:37 108 applications Jan 11 21:45:46 but that's all apps and not just homebrew, right? Jan 11 21:45:49 Sure _most_ of the themes existing are stupidly designed. but that doesn't make the facility stupid. Jan 11 21:45:50 what is "that" server? Jan 11 21:46:00 Adora: from Preware? that would be all apps Jan 11 21:46:11 All apps from AC and HB. Jan 11 21:46:23 dBsooner: how can I find out how many homebrew apps I have installed? Jan 11 21:46:33 dBsooner: only 108? Jan 11 21:46:59 KEYofR: first thing I do in preware is disable the theme feed. Takes forever to load and I don't like any of the themes. Jan 11 21:47:07 Adora: from terminal you would do ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps list_installed | wc -l Jan 11 21:47:21 destinal: no Adora only has 108.. I have like 3 Jan 11 21:47:32 Patches take up like 99% of my time. Jan 11 21:47:34 oh 108 *installed* ? Jan 11 21:47:41 I took disable themes feed Jan 11 21:47:49 again if people made themes with some sense to them they'd be worthwhile Jan 11 21:47:50 wow Jan 11 21:47:54 that must be some kind of record Jan 11 21:48:05 psykoz, exactly Jan 11 21:48:13 ie: just change backgrounds, colors, etc, don't go replace the phone icon with some nintendo characters face Jan 11 21:48:14 There was one time when I had every HB app installed Jan 11 21:48:16 that makes >no< sense Jan 11 21:48:17 stupid content != stupid facility Jan 11 21:48:18 Adora: how many pages do you have? Jan 11 21:48:25 She says, "3" Jan 11 21:48:26 LOL Jan 11 21:48:34 the Pre is NOT set up for themeing Jan 11 21:48:47 ahh crap, how do I enter a pipe? Jan 11 21:48:50 wow, the stock page layout with 100+ apps, ouch Jan 11 21:48:56 | Jan 11 21:49:04 nvm Jan 11 21:49:06 infact, I could careless if you replace the unlock button with the A-team emblem, just leave my damn icons alone ;) Jan 11 21:49:06 orange + l? Jan 11 21:49:10 care less* Jan 11 21:49:17 or sym+. Jan 11 21:49:19 something like that Jan 11 21:49:21 orange + . Jan 11 21:49:40 ok, so mix the two I said. ;) Jan 11 21:49:53 ahh crap, checking the commands erased what I'd already typed Jan 11 21:49:56 * destinal apologizes profusely for terminal's keyboard layout Jan 11 21:50:20 Adora: Did you leave Arkansas before we (Oklahoma and NW AR) got hammered with a foot of snow on Xmas eve? Jan 11 21:50:54 btw, re: keyboard can someone provide steps to duplicate the stability issues people have reported? Jan 11 21:51:03 s/keyboard/terminal/ Jan 11 21:51:04 destinal meant: btw, re: terminal can someone provide steps to duplicate the stability issues people have reported? Jan 11 21:51:09 dBsooner: ok, that command returned 150 Jan 11 21:51:12 chuqui: you know what would make your day less strange? Jan 11 21:51:12 that ain't right Jan 11 21:51:29 what? Jan 11 21:51:39 chuqui: rewteet adora. ;) Jan 11 21:51:43 dBsooner: actually homebrew shares the same ipkg database as all third party apps Jan 11 21:51:45 Adora: oh that returns all your patches too Jan 11 21:51:58 destinal: open terminal. close terminal. open terminal, clo.. CRASH Jan 11 21:52:01 dbsooner: (laughing at a joke only two people would get....) Jan 11 21:52:35 dBsooner: you'd have to grep for feeds Jan 11 21:52:40 kind of a pain Jan 11 21:52:44 I can do the math on this, then Jan 11 21:52:51 yeah, do math first Jan 11 21:53:04 destinal, seems to be random for me so far. sometimes it hangs after pressing Enter after typing exit. sometimes it hangs in the middle of swiping up to close/throw-away, sometime it hangs just in the middle of normal use. sometimes it works fine. Jan 11 21:53:15 150 - 26 patches = 124 homebrew apps Jan 11 21:53:28 wait, that still can't be right... Jan 11 21:53:29 124 apps? crazy ;) Jan 11 21:53:38 Adora: that will include your AC stuff too Jan 11 21:53:47 yeah the grep shows AC stuff Jan 11 21:53:50 But I don't think I can get more than 3 or 4 terminal sessions in a row without a hang & reboot. Jan 11 21:53:51 AC? Jan 11 21:53:58 s/AC/app catalog/ Jan 11 21:53:58 destinal meant: yeah the grep shows app catalog stuff Jan 11 21:53:59 I forgot that the AC stuff is in the same database as the HB stuff now. Jan 11 21:54:05 dBsooner: always has been Jan 11 21:54:08 * Adora shakes dBsooner Jan 11 21:54:11 okay, retweeding @adora now. Jan 11 21:54:23 see.. chuqui is a good tweep Jan 11 21:54:26 :) Jan 11 21:54:27 we never made an ipkg lib, just used palm's :) Jan 11 21:54:41 HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA Jan 11 21:54:44 (palm's 3rd party apps one originally in /var) Jan 11 21:54:51 chuqui > dBsooner Jan 11 21:54:52 I could have sworn it never returned palms stuff in that command Jan 11 21:55:06 chuqui >>>> dBsooner Jan 11 21:55:20 and chuqui != Adora Jan 11 21:55:37 chuqui == Adora Jan 11 21:55:43 Adora > * Jan 11 21:55:46 s/==/===/ Jan 11 21:55:48 dBsooner meant: chuqui === Adora Jan 11 21:55:52 !#%)@? Jan 11 21:55:56 http://twitter.com/chuq Jan 11 21:56:03 PWNT Jan 11 21:56:12 BOOO! Jan 11 21:56:17 chuqui < Adora Jan 11 21:56:22 hey, he retweeted me Jan 11 21:56:27 that's what you asked for, right? Jan 11 21:56:28 Yeah, I guess you're right. Jan 11 21:56:40 but my PREVIOUS statement asked for a specific RT. Jan 11 21:56:42 our signal to noise ratio just went plummeting Jan 11 21:56:48 beggers can't be choosers. :) Jan 11 21:57:16 dBsooner: haha javascript much? Jan 11 21:57:20 destinal, can you make a debug version of terminal that spews a log we can send back to you? I'll run it and send it. Jan 11 21:58:25 KEYofR: could do that, yes. will do in a bit Jan 11 21:59:44 whats a good guess at how long the pre battery will last while listening to music? Jan 11 22:00:32 Hmm.. You know.. we should get nslu2-log to log all users that connect with wIRCer or *.pools.spcsnds.net Jan 11 22:00:39 just to see how many wIRC users there rae. Jan 11 22:00:42 3 to 4 hours Toaster23 Jan 11 22:00:49 k thanks Jan 11 22:00:54 hopefully that improves :P Jan 11 22:01:16 I wish we could consolidate all these special back end services for various apps so we could have just one extra process running, a generic agent, that all the apps could use. terminal, flashlight, tether, internalz etc.. Jan 11 22:01:30 Shouldnt it be more like 5 hours though? Jan 11 22:01:36 considering you get 5 hours of talk time. Jan 11 22:01:59 on my fusic I had 5 hours of talk but I could easily play music for 9-10 hours Jan 11 22:02:56 KEYofR upstart will accomplish that for us. Use upstart to start the binary you need. Jan 11 22:04:00 bpadalino|work: cryptofs is vfat, no perms or symlinks Jan 11 22:04:45 xcomp: can you do a packages/*/Makefile for openssh and gnutls ? Jan 11 22:04:48 openssl Jan 11 22:05:11 KEYofR: internalz is the devil Jan 11 22:05:57 rwhitby: You get my message to you in the channel from about 6 hours ago? Jan 11 22:06:25 dest: truthfully haven't used it. I have it installed "just becuase" I used to need filez on palm once in a while. Jan 11 22:06:51 KEYofR: we should make / port an SDL app Jan 11 22:07:15 what are you guys doing with your installed app counting. Can't you just check preware installed packages -> Jan 11 22:07:48 actually playing with internalz now.. I don't see a problem. a simple browser is better than no browser. Jan 11 22:07:54 the service is a big security hole in terms of random ipks gaining local escalated access of course the point is kind of moot considering type:game means any ipk with an app you launch after installing can do anything Jan 11 22:08:39 ah Jan 11 22:09:36 destinal: for 1.3.5 yeah, but apparently that will be sandboxed for 1.4.0 Jan 11 22:10:14 egaudet_work: so I've heard, but as we say, until we see the code, (or binaries) it doesn't exist :) Jan 11 22:10:46 destinal: do you understand what needs to happen for that pty stuff and SDLterm? Jan 11 22:10:53 yes Jan 11 22:11:06 we did it for terminal after all :) Jan 11 22:11:14 destinal: i know someone did Jan 11 22:11:18 idk who though Jan 11 22:11:26 thought that was mrvc Jan 11 22:11:34 or what ever his nick was Jan 11 22:11:46 him and Zuchmir have dropped off the face of the planet Jan 11 22:13:01 destinal: if I get the gui part of tha tinto a repo think you can help connecting it to real pyt cause i dont exactly understand everything involved Jan 11 22:14:27 hi Jan 11 22:14:41 some questions: Jan 11 22:15:37 how much will the new 3D games cost? (need for speed,sims,etc.) Jan 11 22:16:22 the 3g games are available Jan 11 22:16:24 and cost varies Jan 11 22:16:35 Karotte_exe the commercial apps each have a different price, you can look at the prices for each one at the palm catalog web site or on the phone Jan 11 22:17:12 ird:i'm a german and can't use the great feature of patch 1.3.5 Jan 11 22:17:28 *features Jan 11 22:18:18 Karotte_exe you can look here: http://projectappetite.com/ Jan 11 22:18:22 don't know if you know, but the patch in not avialbe for europe :( Jan 11 22:18:33 thx Jan 11 22:18:54 as second, is here someone who have mytether? Jan 11 22:19:12 ARRRRGGGGHHHHH mytether ICK ICK ICK Jan 11 22:19:18 Karotte_exe: no, people in here know what damage that app can do Jan 11 22:19:41 ? kamere for example? ;) Jan 11 22:19:46 *kamera Jan 11 22:19:53 * PuffTheMagic contemplates buying a 300 dollar cofee machine Jan 11 22:20:01 coffee Jan 11 22:20:26 i have this fuck "code 10" failure Jan 11 22:20:46 PuffTheMagic: my cousin bought a coffe/espresso maker that you can't use without watching the dvd. literally. you have to type in a passcode they give you at the end Jan 11 22:21:20 lmao Jan 11 22:21:21 ok, other topic Jan 11 22:21:36 PuffTheMagic: yes, sure Jan 11 22:21:55 zsoc: is it 20090606? Jan 11 22:22:00 Karotte_exe mytether breaks your phone. Espeically if you insist on installing the wifi "patches" which restore an old broken version of wifi and other problems. We strongly suggest using fretether instead. Jan 11 22:22:32 CoolMatty: lol no :p Jan 11 22:22:40 fretether? Jan 11 22:22:45 Karotte_exe this means that you have to use usbnet or bluetooth to tether, but that is entirely do-able. but mytether, which is closed source, and breaks your phone, is not something any one in here would reccomend. Jan 11 22:22:57 CoolMatty webos20090606 Jan 11 22:23:05 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:FreeTether gonna guess that, Karotte_exe Jan 11 22:23:05 we need a native german speaker Jan 11 22:23:28 Rick_work: I know, but a passcode sorta implies no letters, so I stripped webos :p Jan 11 22:23:30 ja so einer bin ich Jan 11 22:23:39 #nativspeaker Jan 11 22:23:45 Toaster23: I loved my music and then fusic Jan 11 22:24:03 lol Jan 11 22:24:04 Yeah the fusic was an awesome phone Jan 11 22:24:38 Why we continue to be vigilant on app security: http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/11/phishing-android-apps-explain-our-maxed-out-credit/ Jan 11 22:25:11 rwhitby: I would love to see your rss feed filters :p Jan 11 22:25:31 so wait, where do you get freetether anyway? it's not exactly on the wiki there nor preware Jan 11 22:25:51 CoolMatty: alpha preware feeds Jan 11 22:25:52 zsoc: not good enough, they should embed the code, and or the necesssary instructions how to enter/perform the code in dribs & drabs through out the dvd so you can't just skip to the end ;) Jan 11 22:26:41 ahhhhh hate it! Jan 11 22:26:45 so im back Jan 11 22:26:59 * rwhitby bbl Jan 11 22:27:05 my palm was chrashed :( Jan 11 22:27:39 in a world that doesn't (steal your credit card information), droid does Jan 11 22:27:40 ah, I don't have the alpha feed in preware Jan 11 22:27:48 http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/testing/all/us.ryanhope.freetether_0.0.1_all.ipk Jan 11 22:27:50 ahm... we were talk about freetether? Jan 11 22:28:03 droid does what nintendon't... wait what? Jan 11 22:28:04 http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/testing/armv7/us.ryanhope.freetetherd_0.0.3_armv7.ipk Jan 11 22:28:12 ok, hope it is not chrashing again :) Jan 11 22:28:24 jacques: BTW: http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale8x/content/webos-internals Jan 11 22:28:50 @rick_work : what is that for a link? Jan 11 22:28:55 rwhitby nice Jan 11 22:29:08 Karotte_exe those two links are the download links for freetether Jan 11 22:29:30 isn't freetetherin preware? Jan 11 22:29:50 it's in the testing feeds. Unless rod published it recently. Jan 11 22:30:01 testing feeds Jan 11 22:30:43 hm, cant mark it with my pré... could you send it to this e-mail? ed.karotte@gmx.de Jan 11 22:33:16 * egaudet_work bbl Jan 11 22:34:53 ok, made a screen shoot of these links ^^ Jan 11 22:36:04 ahm as third question from Me Jan 11 22:36:51 how often is chrashing your palm Pre ? Jan 11 22:37:37 Karotte_exe It depends on what I'm doing. When programming, it can be every few minutes. If I'm just working, then days to weeks. Jan 11 22:39:12 hm...i'm not coding for the palm pre, so i'm a normal user. but it is horrible. it is worse than windows Jan 11 22:39:30 Karotte_exe do you have patches installed from preware? Jan 11 22:39:38 jep Jan 11 22:39:54 Karotte_exe which ones? Jan 11 22:40:03 many Jan 11 22:40:07 64 Jan 11 22:40:14 Karotte_exe that would be your problem. Jan 11 22:40:22 oh Jan 11 22:40:24 :( Jan 11 22:40:32 Karotte_exee especially if you also have mytether Jan 11 22:40:37 smartflex/mytether/cpuscaling are pretty much dangerous Jan 11 22:40:39 but these patches are so nice Jan 11 22:40:49 life is hard Karotte_exe Jan 11 22:40:57 you define nice strangely ;) Jan 11 22:41:06 oh yes! Jan 11 22:41:12 Karotte_exe: most of the patches are safe. you have to stay away from the ones that affect things on the kernel level Jan 11 22:41:26 smartreflex mytether and cpuscaling will cause you to crash your pre. Remove them, and you should be ok. Jan 11 22:41:37 that is why on preware they are tagged as dangerous Jan 11 22:41:39 oh sorry, ive installed only 21 patches :) Jan 11 22:41:58 most patches are not a problem. Jan 11 22:42:13 launcher patches, etc. but anything that effects the phones performance, those are problems Jan 11 22:42:19 ive didnt install some cpu patches Jan 11 22:42:32 I'm still flaberghasted by the number of people in here who never talk. Jan 11 22:43:14 destinal, just for the record, since I never knew mytether to be dangerous, just useless, I had it installed but now removed. I'll try to see if Terminal still crashes. Jan 11 22:43:20 Karotte_exe which patches then? Jan 11 22:43:22 thx a lot! Jan 11 22:43:43 is a screenshoot ok for you? Jan 11 22:43:51 destinal: you can't get terminal to crash?! Jan 11 22:43:56 kk Jan 11 22:43:58 Karotte_exe: sure? Jan 11 22:44:08 why not? Jan 11 22:44:24 zsoc: hasn't crashed for me Jan 11 22:46:05 ok, ok i will tellyou the patches Jan 11 22:46:23 1. 5x4 icons Jan 11 22:46:41 hmmm Jan 11 22:46:43 2. actual words insteadicons (e-mail) Jan 11 22:47:05 3. add one minute intervall Jan 11 22:47:15 ... Jan 11 22:47:27 4. audio video atatchments(sms) Jan 11 22:47:50 5.capture with volume keys (camera) Jan 11 22:48:12 6. copy url to clipboard (youtube-app) Jan 11 22:48:31 7. date as carrier string Jan 11 22:48:46 how would I go about deleting an icon? Jan 11 22:49:00 8. delete from notification (e-mail) Jan 11 22:49:09 I accdently installed friendsbook but it installed wrong and so now the icon is greyed out but you can still click it however I cant delete it. Jan 11 22:49:13 you habe to press the orange key Jan 11 22:49:27 and then touch the app Jan 11 22:49:32 thank you :) Jan 11 22:49:58 That fixed it thanks Karotte_exee Jan 11 22:50:13 please Jan 11 22:50:24 9 mor page on startscreen Jan 11 22:50:48 10. enable personal avatar(messenger) Jan 11 22:51:11 11.gestureclick kontex Menü (web) Jan 11 22:51:15 C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! Jan 11 22:51:30 12.multimod (web) Jan 11 22:51:34 what? Jan 11 22:52:15 zsoc , what is? Jan 11 22:52:32 Karotte_exe: do you notice the crashing happening at any certain times? like when you are doing certain activity Jan 11 22:52:40 13. not network timezone error Jan 11 22:52:53 yes, it isprimary on web Jan 11 22:53:00 *is primary Jan 11 22:53:40 14.reduce minnimum brighness Jan 11 22:53:57 Karotte_exe: the websites you frequent go to, may be very large (take up a lot of ram memory). maybe they have mobile friendly versions? Jan 11 22:53:58 15.reset scroll position Jan 11 22:54:51 Karotte_exe: you could try the (experimental) patch "reduce swap" Jan 11 22:55:07 no, as example, after iopenet the link from Rick_work the palm was chrasing, and that was a wiki Jan 11 22:55:18 hmm, interesting Jan 11 22:55:21 16. show download count Jan 11 22:55:46 17. swipe delete videos (movieplayer) Jan 11 22:56:02 Karotte_exe: something is taking up a lot of your memory. I can bet it is the mytether wifi patch. there is a bug that used to cause many unnecessary dbus commands Jan 11 22:56:11 18.und hide dev-mode Jan 11 22:56:29 i hav uninstalled mytether Jan 11 22:56:50 19. unthrottle download manager Jan 11 22:57:09 20. videodownloads (youtube-app) Jan 11 22:57:22 21. virtual keyboard Jan 11 22:57:26 Karotte_exe: but did you uninstall the patch? I believe there is a menu setting in mytether to remove the patch Jan 11 22:57:27 that was ist Jan 11 22:57:54 year, my camera is working Jan 11 22:58:16 i was removing the patch before installing Jan 11 22:59:34 it is really strange! Jan 11 22:59:56 alas having to actually work Jan 11 23:00:00 the record was 3 chrash's in 15 min! Jan 11 23:00:06 :) Jan 11 23:00:23 Karotte_exe camera working isn't enough Jan 11 23:00:31 you have to actually power off the phone after removing it Jan 11 23:00:55 ive done it Jan 11 23:01:04 ahm... yesterday Jan 11 23:01:08 I just reinstalled mytether and and I don't see and patch in any menu in it Jan 11 23:01:25 KEYofR you have to have the paid version for that. Jan 11 23:01:41 (I installed via the funky download-a-shell-script thing he has for the pay version Jan 11 23:02:01 I do have the pay version. Jan 11 23:02:09 i had rhe pay-version Jan 11 23:02:13 too Jan 11 23:02:24 unless you mean the disable screen timer? Jan 11 23:02:53 this app is a big fuck! Jan 11 23:04:27 maybe the current versions no longer have such a patch or it's being installed in some way that the user isn't informed? Jan 11 23:04:59 mytether is the devil Jan 11 23:05:11 oh yes! Jan 11 23:05:57 we should do a free tether app Jan 11 23:05:59 so do you all leave usbnet enabled all the time? Jan 11 23:06:12 I do Jan 11 23:06:13 Rick_work: are you still here? Jan 11 23:06:38 working Jan 11 23:10:23 hmm, my NFSU purchase shows up on my statement as: PALM, INC.(Lodging) Jan 11 23:10:25 hey, what for a time do you have in usa?actual? Jan 11 23:11:41 jacques: yeah, Rick and I noticed that too Jan 11 23:12:01 destinal-pre: I thought we had a free tether app. it just needs to be released. Jan 11 23:12:05 Looking at the mytether install script I only see ipkg commands no direct patches, though of course one of the ipk's might contain a patch, looking at those now... Jan 11 23:12:26 KEYofR: do the ipkg commands have an -o switches? Jan 11 23:12:49 (are there any ipkg commands *without* a -o switch) Jan 11 23:13:21 Rick_work: have you the first link for me again? these wiki about free tether? please Jan 11 23:13:34 KEYofR: what does myTether do for you right now that freeTether does not? Jan 11 23:13:56 Karotte_exee: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:FreeTether Jan 11 23:14:06 Mytether has never worked once for me. Jan 11 23:14:09 thx Jan 11 23:14:35 Karotte_exee: ipkgs are in http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/testing/all/ and http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/testing/armv7/ Jan 11 23:14:59 jacques: do you have a lib ready for packaging for /usr/local/lib on the Pre? Jan 11 23:15:00 But the times I might actually need it are few, and so far has always been shortly after a recet os update Jan 11 23:15:11 rwhitby: yes, libGLUES_CM.so Jan 11 23:15:24 jacques: in cross-compile? Jan 11 23:15:28 so I always thoiught "oh well just bad luck to be in a transition period where it doesn't work..." Jan 11 23:15:45 rwhitby: yes, but currently the Makefile does not stage the lib (and the glues.h header which is neeed) Jan 11 23:16:01 jacques: is it in nonworking? Jan 11 23:16:10 ok.... and which one i have to download? and... HOW TO INSTALL? Jan 11 23:16:33 rwhitby: no, it works AFAICT, I just hadn't gotten to writing the staging part of the Makefile and I didn't want to delay any longer nefore committing something Jan 11 23:16:40 rwhitby: I should probably check into that Jan 11 23:17:07 Another think I miss from my treos & centro. usbmodem worked great. I even had bluetooth tethering from a linux notebook through my centro with usbmodem sigh... Jan 11 23:17:35 rwhitby: I was just going to ask you - I would like to start committing the ports of the example apps that come with libGLUES_CM - we discussed breaking them out but using the same svn download Jan 11 23:17:39 Karotte_exee: no need to shout. ipkgs are best installed using WebOS Quick Install, unless you know the exact syntax for running postinst scripts yourself. Jan 11 23:17:43 KEYofR: freeTether in the webos-internals testing feed should work for bt or wifi Jan 11 23:17:48 rwhitby: Quit ignoring me before I fly to Australia and pay a 'roo to kick you in the nuts. :) Jan 11 23:17:50 so did that pay one, I forget it's name but the website was junefabrics Jan 11 23:18:18 k Jan 11 23:18:18 rwhitby: so I just need to come up with a name for the glues example app directory under packages - any suggestions ? Jan 11 23:18:27 dBsooner: well, if you don't want this Trac that I'm setting up right now I can just stop working on it ... Jan 11 23:18:41 LOL Jan 11 23:18:53 rwhitby: I withdrawal my statement. Jan 11 23:19:03 rwhitby: I misread above - libGLUES_CM is in packages Jan 11 23:19:07 puff I'm trying that shortly. I just re-installed mytether because dest or someone just said something about a patch that mytether might have installed that might be left behind if I didn't know about it and remove it first Jan 11 23:19:23 rwhitby: Please excuse my alter-ego.. he can be a real bastard at times. Jan 11 23:19:34 (were you implying it should be in nonworking because it currently isn't staging?) Jan 11 23:20:53 Anyone familiar with the way the messaging app/libpurple/the plugins work? I have a friend with a yahoo messaging issue that is persistent across doctoring and only repeatable on his device. Is there anything in /media that could be causing a plugin issue? Jan 11 23:20:53 I'm trying to establis, if you just remove mytether via preware or ipkg commands, is it really all gone (after a reboot to get ther daemon killed) Jan 11 23:21:01 thx to all, and good night! (in germany it is 00:20) Jan 11 23:21:24 ahm, last question! Jan 11 23:21:45 zsoc: maybe.. since cryptofs stuff doesn't disappear on doctoring either now Jan 11 23:21:51 is it complicatet to installs th ipk's with quickinstall? Jan 11 23:21:55 jacques: nah, just looking for it Jan 11 23:22:16 dBsooner: that's what i'm thinking. but i don't know if any plugin/messaging/libpurple data is stored there... maybe a corrupt database? Jan 11 23:22:19 Karotte_exee: not if you read the documentation Jan 11 23:22:34 zsoc i dont think anything in media would cause an issue Jan 11 23:22:44 What webos version are german carriers using? Jan 11 23:22:45 1.3.1? Jan 11 23:22:46 ok, i hope i will understand it Jan 11 23:22:50 acydlord: that's what i thought too :/ maybe an id-10-t error Jan 11 23:22:58 yes Jan 11 23:22:58 zsoc what sort of issue is he having with it? Jan 11 23:23:03 1.3.1 Jan 11 23:23:07 :( Jan 11 23:23:17 This is the install script btw: it outputs a shell script.. you are supposed to wget it and pipe into sh Jan 11 23:23:24 or save & run Jan 11 23:23:28 http://mytether.net/get.latest.php Jan 11 23:23:33 acydlord: his yahoo im doesn't connect. email syncs/works fine. i can connect to his yahoo on my phone, and he can connect from his computer. when he trys to connect to his yahoo IM from his pre it just hangs forever Jan 11 23:23:40 ah, what for a patch need freetether? Jan 11 23:23:48 zsoc, libpurple stores settings the settings files in the home folder Jan 11 23:23:50 PuffTheMagic: wait, you have wifi working in freetether? Jan 11 23:23:58 which would explain why it is persistant across doctoring Jan 11 23:24:03 Which carrier is in germany? Jan 11 23:24:12 1.3.1 Jan 11 23:24:12 acydlord: er, what home folder? /var/home/root? :p Jan 11 23:24:21 Carrier, not version Jan 11 23:24:26 on the pre i believe so, let me doublecheck Jan 11 23:24:28 chrisa: O2 i think Jan 11 23:24:39 i thought /var got nixed on doctor Jan 11 23:24:43 chrisa: o 2 Jan 11 23:25:04 is that a problem? Jan 11 23:25:20 bah, forgot it wont show hidden files in terminal Jan 11 23:25:40 zsoc: I understand how the libpurple adapter service works with messaging app, having issues like that sounds strange Jan 11 23:25:45 rwhitby: I think what needs to be staged are these files from packages/libGLUES_CM/build/src/source : libGLUES_CM.so, glues.h, and glu.h as a symlink to glues.h (so code which includes glu.h might "just work") Jan 11 23:25:48 zsoc, you have sftp access to your pre? Jan 11 23:26:11 acydlord: ... er.. .. a joke right? i use novacom get/put or scp generally :) Jan 11 23:26:34 destinal: i'll keep that in mind :) i'm not expecting to find a magical cure but i'm willing to spend a few minutes and ask a few questions :) Jan 11 23:26:36 I have midnight commander installed on my pre. I ssh in and browse around in that. ;) Jan 11 23:26:40 I just need to make sure I bring a device to germany that only has production/released builds Jan 11 23:26:44 I'll just use the EU dr Jan 11 23:26:47 ahh, cause we need to find the .purple folder most likely Jan 11 23:27:08 find . | grep -i purpose ? Jan 11 23:27:10 chrisa: that mean? Jan 11 23:27:15 what makes you think there is one? Jan 11 23:27:32 KEYofR: "ipkg install net.aonic.tether_1.0.8_all.ipk" <- fail Jan 11 23:27:39 unless they properly used the empathy libs for the messenger app Jan 11 23:27:46 this isn't standard purple, it's been adapted to a service Jan 11 23:27:58 and i dont remember the settings folder for that, i'll have to fire up my debian machine Jan 11 23:28:03 KEYofR: that's what caused the recurring 1.2.1 update problem for lots of people Jan 11 23:28:21 really Jan 11 23:28:27 I can have him poll debus for 'purple' while he trys to connect.. Jan 11 23:28:31 KEYofR: basically, he's messing with the Palm rootfs ipkg database, corrupting all the integrity checks that are in place Jan 11 23:28:43 rwhitby, gahhh Jan 11 23:28:48 nice ... not. Jan 11 23:28:49 he should have -o /var for 1.3.1 or -o /media/cryptofs/apps for 1.3.5 Jan 11 23:29:09 lovely Jan 11 23:29:37 we warned him about this 6 months ago Jan 11 23:29:44 destinal-pre, i know its not standard purple, it's an adapted version of the nokia telepathy MC with libpurple Jan 11 23:30:26 KEYofR: but some people just don't understand that you simply can't do things like messing with the vendor's areas (e.g. putting extra libs in /usr/lib) Jan 11 23:30:39 ok, now really by. i will try it. Jan 11 23:32:29 jacques: so we can just install those files into staging in the Makefile. want me to add that? Jan 11 23:32:53 jacques: we need to merge the cross-compile stuff into the autobuilder somehow too Jan 11 23:34:20 rwhitby: if you don't mind adding the staging that would be great - I cannot commit from work :-( (firewall / proxy issues) Jan 11 23:34:27 ok Jan 11 23:34:53 rwhitby: did you see my Q about dir name for glues example apps which I am porting? Jan 11 23:35:32 GLUES_CM_examples ? kinda long Jan 11 23:35:46 GLES_CM_demos ? Jan 11 23:35:55 glues-demos ? Jan 11 23:36:12 rwhitby: OK. in lower case (fine with me) Jan 11 23:36:23 jacques: does glues.h go in /usr/local/include or /usr/local/include/GLES/ ? Jan 11 23:36:46 rwhitby: let me check one of the demos ... Jan 11 23:37:20 jacques: was the glu.h->glues.h symlink in the source or did you add that? Jan 11 23:37:30 rwhitby: it's in the source Jan 11 23:37:49 ok, so we put the same symlink in /usr/local/includes then Jan 11 23:37:54 the demo actually explicitly includes glues.h : #include "glues.h" Jan 11 23:38:36 but I think there is a good chance that any app which uses the glu subset currently implemented by glues will just work Jan 11 23:38:51 rwhitby: agreed same symlink Jan 11 23:39:21 rwhitby: if you hate the libGLUES_CM case, feel free to change it to all lower - I have no strong feelings Jan 11 23:39:36 (in the dir name - not the lib .so name ;-) Jan 11 23:39:44 nod Jan 11 23:39:50 wtf is GLUES Jan 11 23:39:53 i keep hearing t Jan 11 23:40:04 zsoc: sorry, no wifi Jan 11 23:40:19 zsoc: we wont get wifi support till that Verizon hotspot thing comes out Jan 11 23:40:38 http://code.google.com/p/glues/ Jan 11 23:41:42 rwhitby: idk how much backlog you read, but I plan on starting Preware2 or Preware 2.0 which will combine Preware and ipkgservice and be done all in C and Evas/SDL Jan 11 23:41:49 PuffTheMagic: right that's what i thought, i'm ok with that Jan 11 23:42:00 PuffTheMagic: GLUES is an ES compatible wrapper for GLU Jan 11 23:42:25 PuffTheMagic: which is basically an extension of GL that automates certain common tasks (from what i can tell) Jan 11 23:42:50 PuffTheMagic: yeah, I'm pretending I didn't read that at the moment ... Jan 11 23:43:07 rwhitby: besides not using mojo widgets what could you have against it Jan 11 23:43:19 Karotte_exe: I don't know why you said that to me. But ok. Jan 11 23:44:15 jacques: does http://webos.pastebin.com/d386a8de1 look right? Jan 11 23:44:21 forks are generally healthy for opensource imo Jan 11 23:45:24 rwhitby: yes, looks good. Jan 11 23:46:06 zsoc: agreed Jan 11 23:46:51 hm.. several ucky things about mytether as if we needed more... a) the installer apparently tries to detect if you're using webos 1.3 or higher, and if so installs mytether 2.0.4, if not, 2.0.2 well I have 1.3.5.1 and it installed mytherther 2.0.2 Jan 11 23:47:16 b) does not show up in preware after installed (it used to show up fine?) Jan 11 23:48:13 c) since it wasn't in preware, I used launcher to delete it "edit, list, delete" hung and rebooted with no dialog explaining why. Jan 11 23:48:16 rwhitby: are you hre? Jan 11 23:48:18 *here Jan 11 23:48:39 or destinal? Jan 11 23:48:47 d) ... and didn't actually go away after the reboot so it wasn't intentional Jan 11 23:49:15 I have an idea for preware :P Jan 11 23:49:16 KEYofR: yep. Jan 11 23:49:23 http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=2147220&posted=1#post2147220 << Is anyone planning on fixing this? Jan 11 23:49:40 Have you thought about "patch packs" Jan 11 23:49:43 ok, nopw after reboot, launcher was able to remove mytether normally. Jan 11 23:49:43 zsoc: so much for evas preware Jan 11 23:50:07 packing together the most common patches, so in one click multiple patches can be installed Jan 11 23:50:09 so, that was just like what happens with Terminal , a hang followed by reboot Jan 11 23:50:21 *touch Jan 11 23:50:21 Toaster23: we're waiting for someone to do keybindings for scummvm Jan 11 23:50:33 PuffTheMagic: what's wrong with a fork? Jan 11 23:50:54 Wasent someone on here going to do it? I forget who it was though Jan 11 23:50:55 zsoc: i've wasted enough time on projects for webos-intnerlas that never get used Jan 11 23:51:08 zsoc: not gonna do anything that dont have full support of the group Jan 11 23:51:24 PuffTheMagic: that's cause you only ever write the code, and forget about everything else after that Jan 11 23:51:30 puffthemagic: like what? Jan 11 23:51:32 PuffTheMagic: i support the C service, but I'm only 1 vote, if that. Jan 11 23:51:54 C service is going to be used, there's no question about that. Jan 11 23:52:06 Anyone decided on a sticker image? Jan 11 23:52:31 cashen: Templarian is working on a bigger SVG version of the logo from webos-internals.org Jan 11 23:53:00 cashen: tag-line final candidates are: "Super. Open. Phones", "Know Everything", and "Your Phone, Smarter" Jan 11 23:53:05 http://www.precentral.net/webos-1352-landing-europe Jan 11 23:53:21 I vote for 1) or 3) Jan 11 23:53:27 I think 2) is too general Jan 11 23:53:46 jacques: interesting. Time to update my GSM Pre ... Jan 11 23:53:58 rod: you have a gsm pre? Jan 11 23:54:01 ok I think removing mytether doesn't leave any patches behind although you should reboot. Jan 11 23:54:05 LarrySteeze: I have two of them Jan 11 23:54:10 cool Jan 11 23:54:16 german o2? Jan 11 23:54:21 yep, both. Jan 11 23:54:22 now that it's off I'm going to pound on Terminal and see if it still crashes Jan 11 23:54:25 rwhitby: what are you referring to that I have left and havent maintained Jan 11 23:54:39 did you remap the z and y? Jan 11 23:54:52 or not bother Jan 11 23:55:08 PuffTheMagic: not talking about maintenance. I'm talking about doing the other 60% of the work to get code transitioned, packaged and released. Jan 11 23:55:55 PuffTheMagic: I may finally start having more time on my hands, so if you need help with things post-code, let me know. Jan 11 23:55:59 rwhitby: everything "useful" that i have written has been packaged and released Jan 11 23:56:12 PuffTheMagic: yes, wIRC is awesome. Jan 11 23:56:17 what have you made that wasn't useful? Jan 11 23:56:39 LarrySteeze: when i was learning how to make C service i made a useless monitor service Jan 11 23:56:49 sys mon? Jan 11 23:56:59 jacques: the idea is based on the old addage about windows having all the vendors to work together, apple having all the hardware to work together, and linux having all the knowlege to just work. Jan 11 23:57:07 i wouldn't call a system monitor useless Jan 11 23:57:09 and i started C version of ipkgservice that lost momentum cause we had no way of building native code on the autobuilder Jan 11 23:57:20 LarrySteeze: a monitor is a waste of cycles Jan 11 23:57:33 rwhitby: awesome, sounds good, just didn't want to miss something, Jan 11 23:57:35 it's not something that you would keep open Jan 11 23:57:44 and now with sb2 we have a way to build native code on the autobuilder Jan 11 23:57:52 but if you wanted to figure out which apps were causing memory leaks, it could help. Jan 11 23:57:58 rwhitby: I like "Your Phone, Smarter" Jan 11 23:58:01 zsoc: oh I get it now. I like it. Jan 11 23:58:26 cashen: yeah, I like #1 and #3 best Jan 11 23:58:26 "WebOS-Internals: Linux. Phones. Freedom." Jan 11 23:58:32 rwhitby: so i dont really know what you are referring to, the only thing that I started and bailed on was ipkgservice cause the whole ipkgservice/preware thing was your way or the highway Jan 11 23:58:34 I don't like any of them honestly ;) Jan 11 23:58:48 PuffTheMagic: I'm not saying you bailed on anything Jan 11 23:58:56 thank god all the GSM users can upgrade now to 1.3.5.2, wonder why the 2? Jan 11 23:59:16 * destinal-pre looks around for poocorn Jan 11 23:59:24 poocorn?! Jan 11 23:59:25 poocorn, eh? Jan 11 23:59:26 destinal-pre: no its over... Jan 11 23:59:26 cashen: because it's 0.0.0.1 better Jan 11 23:59:29 popcorn Jan 11 23:59:30 destinal-pre: no show tonight Jan 11 23:59:45 stupid pre kbd Jan 11 23:59:48 cashen: a diff of .1 and .2 will be interesting Jan 11 23:59:53 "WebOS-Internals: Poocorn. Stupid keyboard" Jan 12 00:00:00 anyone here from the Boston area, by the way? Jan 12 00:00:10 NJ but I Jan 12 00:00:16 destinal-pre: you catch my combo breaker earlier? Jan 12 00:00:39 zsoc: no whatsit? Jan 12 00:00:39 Mousey: I think your "Linux. Phones. Freedom." has pushed out "Know Everything" Jan 12 00:00:40 I'll be in boston this weekend for Arisia. got some friends up there too I visit now and then. also up further in Gilford Jan 12 00:00:53 cool Jan 12 00:00:54 w00t!!!! Jan 12 00:01:09 I have no idea what Arisia is, nor do I know where Gilford is, but...hey, it's cool ;) Jan 12 00:01:28 destinal-pre: oh nm then :( maybe in the logs later Jan 12 00:01:34 temp! what up? Jan 12 00:01:34 webos-internals: new mobile freedom Jan 12 00:01:42 "WebOS-Internals: The source is with us" Jan 12 00:01:44 PuffTheMagic: all I am saying is that you have no interest in the packaging, smooth transitioning of existing users, and end-user support, yet you then go an act as if not using the C ipkgservice is some sort of rebuke against your code. Jan 12 00:02:11 crap, laundry done, have to switch it to the dryer...brb Jan 12 00:02:14 "WebOS-Internals: Handy Linux Phones" Jan 12 00:02:16 When I've consistently said that it will be used once it fits in with everything else. Jan 12 00:02:17 Arisia is a sci-fi convention that fills all of the Hyatt and half of 2 more hotels. Gilford NH is about an hour north Jan 12 00:02:49 rwhitby: is "Super. Open. Phones" a play on "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" by Daft Punk? Jan 12 00:02:50 bollocks. I wish everyone else would stop trying to download 1.3.5.2 until I can get it Jan 12 00:02:55 "WebOS-Internals: Serious Business" Jan 12 00:02:55 jacques: I dunno if destinal-pre would agree with your tag-line, since he contends that we're still missing source. Jan 12 00:03:14 rwhitby: yeah. Jan 12 00:03:16 cashen: it's a poke at Google defining "SuperPhones" Jan 12 00:03:37 aha Jan 12 00:03:37 ah Jan 12 00:03:55 well, the Hyatt is a place we were thinking about having our wedding reception Jan 12 00:04:08 which hyatt is it, downtown boston? back bay? Chinatown? Jan 12 00:04:14 cashen: but admittedly it may be too obtuse for a tag line Jan 12 00:04:26 we are missing source Jan 12 00:04:29 rwhitby: I dont know how you can say that... i have not been involved with any converstations regarding "transitions" like what was needed for the cryptofs stuff, and I said I would take care of all of my apps (sure I might now know all of the issues involved nor do I know how you might have decided to take care of them) but I don't know why you would think that I dont care Jan 12 00:04:30 * destinal-pre contends some more. Jan 12 00:04:52 the big glass stepped pyramid one Jan 12 00:04:59 cambridge? Jan 12 00:05:00 just cause i didnt try solving the issue the second you wanted to Jan 12 00:05:08 it's in cambridge? Jan 12 00:05:17 [19:02:47] bollocks. I wish everyone else would stop trying to download 1.3.5.2 until I can get it <-- am I being trolled or is there really a 1.3.5.2 now Jan 12 00:05:26 PuffTheMagic: i'm specifically talking about the transition from Java ipkgservice to C ipkgservice. Jan 12 00:05:27 CoolMatty: for GSM, there is :p Jan 12 00:05:29 hyatt regency cambridge Jan 12 00:05:37 Sorry for the OT guys Jan 12 00:05:38 freakout: oh I see :p Jan 12 00:05:42 Strange, that's a smaller one than downtown Jan 12 00:05:56 PuffTheMagic: I've said it will happen after Preware 1.0 is released onto a maintenance branch, and will need to transition users seamlessly. Jan 12 00:06:05 hey, I'll brb...same reason I said before :P Jan 12 00:06:20 PuffTheMagic: you seem to react to that by saying that I have refused to use it Jan 12 00:06:54 rwhitby: my issues were against backwards compat for developers, which has nothing to do with user experience, none of the changes i wanted to make would have been noticed by users of Preare Jan 12 00:07:36 rwhitby: and if we make a SDL app with a C ipkgservice built into it then other apps wouldnt be using it and there is no issue about backwards compat Jan 12 00:08:05 exactly - refusing to acknowledge the wider ecosystem in which ipkgservice lives Jan 12 00:08:27 What was the last thing you got with sdlterminal? hit a problem that wasn't worth solving or ? does it almost work and someone else can pick it iup? I really would like a terminal that doesn't need it's own service Jan 12 00:08:49 rwhitby: i wasnt refusing, I wanted to make a new C ipkgservice that had API changes that developers could "choose" to use if they wanted to, which would not break anything using the old java ipkgservice Jan 12 00:09:16 the only thing I don't like about terminal currently is the card edges on the screen and the odd text wrapping Jan 12 00:09:18 and thereby double the load on those supporting both ipkgservices Jan 12 00:09:28 also the display offloading instead of sending bitmaps to luna would be a just abonus Jan 12 00:09:36 rwhitby: how so? Jan 12 00:09:55 PuffTheMagic: well, for a start you changed the package name, so now there are two packages Jan 12 00:10:10 rwhitby: that does not double any work Jan 12 00:10:13 CoolMatty, carde edges are fixable with the squarify patch in webosquickinstall Jan 12 00:10:27 secondly, you didn't want to keep the backwards compatible API in the same package - you may have changed your position on that since, I dunno. Jan 12 00:10:38 rwhitby: so its ok for you to make extra work for me, but its not ok if other people have extra work? Jan 12 00:11:11 so you guys probably hear this all the time, but does anyone know a timeline on the next preware release? Jan 12 00:11:11 KEYofR: I'd rather not squarify my whole system, just terminal :p Jan 12 00:11:31 PuffTheMagic: the onus is on those making the changes to keep the old stuff working. Just like the Linux kernel. Jan 12 00:11:33 cool, it's not possible for a single app to do that I don't think ? Jan 12 00:11:57 rwhitby: well either way, I no longer want to make a standalone ipkg service, i want it embedded into the Preware app so that everything can be installed on cryptofs and so that Preware works evern after doctoring Jan 12 00:12:01 Guest78234: what version are you on? Jan 12 00:12:07 PuffTheMagic: and it's not just you who would be creating such a thing anyway Jan 12 00:12:14 1.3.5 Jan 12 00:12:28 Guest78234: Preware version Jan 12 00:12:41 rwhitby: i havent heard anyone voluneer or show interest (besides oh yeah that would be nice) Jan 12 00:12:52 PuffTheMagic: the requirement to work after a doctoring is a clear important new requirement, and we should discuss the options on how that can be achieved. Jan 12 00:13:09 cashen: oh well I just got a refurb pre because my old one's power button broke, so currently I have no preware installed Jan 12 00:14:04 rwhitby: its not a requirement, its a nice feature Jan 12 00:14:16 and achieved in a way that the other packages that use the Package Manager Service are not broken by the proposed implementation Jan 12 00:14:28 and ibeleive the only way to do it is to turn preare into a "game" Jan 12 00:14:38 PuffTheMagic: no, it's a requirement, since it significantly impacts the support loa Jan 12 00:14:39 d Jan 12 00:15:20 type:game is not a long term solution, since it's changing as soon as they can put a better solution in place Jan 12 00:16:13 ipkgservice as type:game is guaranteed to break in a future webOS version Jan 12 00:16:54 since it breaks the bright line of the security model Jan 12 00:17:42 i see where the "palm profile' database is for contacts... but where do the Google contacts live on the phone? want to back that up, too. Jan 12 00:18:23 FreeTim: they live on google's server... I dont think you can back them up via the pre Jan 12 00:18:38 so whilst an sdl/evas preware is a really cool idea, and will be lots of fun for people to implement, it does not solve the problem. Jan 12 00:18:42 could be wrong though... Jan 12 00:19:10 Tibfib: they are cached on the phone Jan 12 00:19:21 bah; they :: must exist :: somewhere on the phone, even temporarily Jan 12 00:19:25 rwhitby: I stand (sit?) corrected Jan 12 00:19:38 Tibfib, FreeTim: dunno where though Jan 12 00:19:48 I'll do a find and see what can be seen Jan 12 00:19:55 rwhitby, I doubt type: game is leaving Jan 12 00:20:17 egaudet: it is not, but the things that a binary can do are going to be constrained Jan 12 00:20:17 thanks for your reponse all just thought I'd ask here before going spelunking Jan 12 00:20:43 egaudet: and those constraints will break an ipkgservice done as type:game Jan 12 00:20:48 rwhitby, yea I agree we can't depend on the open freedom to do whatever we want longterm with that Jan 12 00:21:16 once we have the API in a couple months though we will see if it's possible Jan 12 00:21:38 Freetim: The Google contacts are in the PalmDatabase.db3 file Jan 12 00:21:42 egaudet: I've discussed this with palm, when I asked incredulously about how they could allow such a vulnerability onto the device. it will be sand-boxed before any type:game apps are accepted from the public. Jan 12 00:21:58 roto222: I thought they would be, but I exported that, and see just the Palm profile contats Jan 12 00:22:18 rwhitby: it's not really a vulnerability when you're talking about computers in general Jan 12 00:22:28 rwhitby: just a step down in isolation from the mojo setup Jan 12 00:22:35 Freetim: They're in there, there's even a view that will display them for you....com_palm_pim_GmailContact Jan 12 00:22:47 "WebOS-Internals: Freedom. For now..." Jan 12 00:23:08 destinal: allowing a type:game that can do anything on the device, and is accepted into the app catalog, is a clear crossing of the bright line of the security model. it will not be allowed. Jan 12 00:23:34 right thanks! I was pulling only from the table from com_palm_pim_Person Jan 12 00:23:34 rwhitby: oh but it works now Jan 12 00:23:45 thanks roto222 Jan 12 00:23:49 destinal: indeed. but not for long. Jan 12 00:24:16 hence I'm not going to rewrite Preware for something that is not going to work in the long term Jan 12 00:24:32 rwhitby: so does that mean some of the sdl games may have to be redone in the future? Jan 12 00:25:00 Tibfib: we don't use type:game in any of our SDL games, and they are not being submitted to the app catalog. Jan 12 00:25:45 we use the existing Preware crossing of the bright line, which is fine because normal humans can't install Preware, so it falls outside the liability region. Jan 12 00:25:46 Oh so the limitations will be for the app catalog only, not on the device itself? Jan 12 00:25:57 Freetim: Glad I could help. You wouldn't happen to know where the Bookmarks are held, would you? Those are still evading me... Jan 12 00:26:49 Tibfib: homebrew will continue to be able to shoot itself in the feet as much as it likes, as far as I can determine (that's not based on any information from Palm) Jan 12 00:29:40 roto222: same file PalmDatabase.db3 ? Jan 12 00:29:48 Tibfib: (but will not be able to use type:game in the appinfo.json file to do so) Jan 12 00:31:06 heading home - bialw Jan 12 00:32:17 Freetim: That's what I figured, but if they are I can't seem to find them easily Jan 12 00:32:36 So, I guess I should test out the official upgrade procedure for moving to 1.3.5.2 Jan 12 00:32:45 * rwhitby runs EPR Jan 12 00:33:38 it will be good when we can finally assume everything is running 1.3.5+ Jan 12 00:33:44 * rwhitby adds the 1.3.5.2 symlink for patches Jan 12 00:35:55 rwhitby: good luck downloading OTA, mine has been giving "unable to connect. please try again later" error messages Jan 12 00:36:17 rwhitby: dunno, I'm still going to make a type: game installer for preware and we'll see how long it lasts. having an easy way to persist across doctoring is worth it even if it won't work forever Jan 12 00:36:41 1352 does.... Jan 12 00:37:17 Tibfib: homebrew will continue to be able to shoot itself in the feet as much as it likes, as far as I can determine (that's not based on any information from Palm) Jan 12 00:37:45 what's up guys? Jan 12 00:38:32 rwhitby, so you think only type: game is going to be sandboxed and we'll still be able to use native code in cards outside of type: game Jan 12 00:40:12 egad I dont want to epr again for a minor update =) Jan 12 00:40:14 destinal: no problem with a type:game installer Jan 12 00:40:26 1.3.5.2? Jan 12 00:40:33 come on palm.. quit this incrimental stuff Jan 12 00:40:36 egaudet: if they restrict type: game to a non-root user, I think we'll still be able to use our upstart method Jan 12 00:40:42 egaudet: I expect so - but you will need something other than type:game to start them Jan 12 00:40:55 egaudet: or if we want to use type: game some kind of suid wrapper would be needed with it Jan 12 00:40:59 destinal: that's my guess of what they will do, based on no inside information. Jan 12 00:41:06 1.3.5.2 usa? Jan 12 00:41:06 roto222: They are definately in the database. I opened it with a text-viewer (notepad) and found my bookmarks in there Jan 12 00:41:14 jmyaonpalmpre1: nope Jan 12 00:41:28 dBsooner: I've already put the patch symlink in Jan 12 00:41:37 also found my old contacts too, which I thought were lost. I will need to figure out the table names some how Jan 12 00:41:41 rwhitby: &ny Jan 12 00:41:42 but it would be most secure for us to avoid needing root with our native apps where we can Jan 12 00:41:48 whoami... palm-webos-user Jan 12 00:41:48 when they shift it Jan 12 00:42:00 destinal: agreed Jan 12 00:42:06 rwhitby: any word what the upgrade is? Jan 12 00:42:16 jmyaonpalmpre1: it's 1.3.5 for GSM Jan 12 00:42:54 rwhitby: oh they never had it ic Jan 12 00:42:58 freakout: cool, so you won't need any brutal hacks after all :) Jan 12 00:43:09 no doctor yet it seems Jan 12 00:43:15 destinal: yep :) Jan 12 00:43:18 no doctor. Jan 12 00:43:24 If they used a non-root user, what would app cat do to install apps Jan 12 00:43:26 I went looking when I couldn't make OTA work Jan 12 00:43:52 if there was still a way to install apps, preware would work as a type: game assuming that's their solution Jan 12 00:43:59 egaudet: LunaSysMgr will continue to run as root for the foreseeable future Jan 12 00:44:13 that's the whole GUI there Jan 12 00:44:16 oh right that's what does the lifting Jan 12 00:44:47 plus no postinst stuff yadda yadda nm Jan 12 00:44:51 egaudet: ipkgservice cannot work as non-root Jan 12 00:45:17 well only cannot work for "advanced" homebrew Jan 12 00:45:22 right Jan 12 00:45:24 Is there something similar to objcopy that works on ARM? Jan 12 00:46:01 what's wrong with objcopy ? Jan 12 00:46:08 bpadalino: it doesn't work on arm? Jan 12 00:46:12 destinal: they could make the type:game loader fork and drop privs before running the binary Jan 12 00:46:24 i've got a binary .. Jan 12 00:46:29 looks like it should be fine ? Jan 12 00:46:33 destinal: (that's how I'd do it, anyway) Jan 12 00:46:37 bpadalino: a special arm binary? or liek a regular old one? Jan 12 00:46:40 came with my cs Jan 12 00:46:47 you want objcopy to run on the arm itself ? Jan 12 00:46:50 bpadalino: i mean... are there arm flags? The current flags in this makefile are objcopy -I binary -O elf32-i386 -B i386 Jan 12 00:46:54 bpadalino: right Jan 12 00:46:56 zsoc: there's one on your pre Jan 12 00:47:08 destinal: haha are you serious? Jan 12 00:47:14 * zsoc facepalms Jan 12 00:47:15 sorry Jan 12 00:47:17 /usr/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-objcopy Jan 12 00:48:09 zsoc: if you want to run it on x86 then you'll want the codesourcery probably Jan 12 00:48:23 destinal: er, i'm mobile atm so i want to run it on my pre ;) Jan 12 00:49:23 Palm included all kinds of great debugging tools in the stock webos userland Jan 12 00:49:31 even gdb Jan 12 00:50:27 rwhitby: and d8 Jan 12 00:50:53 ooh hiddiag is cool Jan 12 00:51:19 homeward bound, bbiab Jan 12 00:51:42 hmm.. elf32littlearm or elf32bigarm? Jan 12 00:51:53 zsoc: el Jan 12 00:51:53 should i assume one is <6 and the other is cortex? Jan 12 00:51:55 zsoc: little Jan 12 00:51:57 kk Jan 12 00:52:03 destinal: stop knowing everything ;) Jan 12 00:52:18 :) Jan 12 00:52:55 has the been word about whether 1.4 will use the gpu for standard OS transitions to speed it up? Jan 12 00:53:19 WillJitsu: no idea Jan 12 00:53:29 zsoc: he only knows 99.9% of everything Jan 12 00:53:31 we wouldn't even know if 1.3.5 does already Jan 12 00:54:05 synackfin: well when talking about _certain_ subjects i feel on par with his knowledge :/ then i get into his core of awesomeness and he wins Jan 12 00:54:23 -O elf32-littlearm -B arm worked like a charm, thank you palm Jan 12 00:56:15 rwhitby: using the gpu is what would put the transitions on par with the iPhone, right? Jan 12 00:56:22 I suspect the Luna GPU win will come in 2.0 Jan 12 00:56:47 it feels like they'll basically want a rewrite and that seems like a major revision number Jan 12 00:56:56 I'm going to take a bet that its in 1.5 Jan 12 00:57:47 * rwhitby runs EPR for the first time ever Jan 12 00:58:51 ´Õ¤ÃѺ Jan 12 00:58:52 damnit, i'm NOT spending another hour reinstalling patches Jan 12 00:59:10 Robi_: you're in the US. 1.3.5.2 is for GSM Jan 12 00:59:26 oh good Jan 12 00:59:27 * cashen just lol Jan 12 00:59:42 i'm still waiting for my replacement pre to arrive Jan 12 01:00:23 the store tried to make me wait 3 hrs to doctor it again, when I did already, and then keep it for 3 days whiel they order me a new one. 15 min later customercare was shipping me one Jan 12 01:00:24 I'm guessing 1.3.5.2 must be GSM specific? Jan 12 01:00:34 rwhitby, run a cat /usr/lib/ipkg/info/*.md5sums > /tmp/md5sums ; md5sum -c /tmp/md5sums |grep -v OK Jan 12 01:00:37 after Jan 12 01:01:18 Robi_: what is wrong with your Pre? Jan 12 01:01:59 anyway to get folders in video player? :P Jan 12 01:02:05 make things more orginzed? Jan 12 01:02:30 egaudet: hmm - Classic fails Jan 12 01:02:42 as do my hacks to findapps :-) Jan 12 01:03:00 egaudet: (thx for reminding me to revert those first) Jan 12 01:03:44 apart from those two, just my hostname change in /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. Jan 12 01:03:47 destinal: you think Luna will get rewritten for 2.0? Jan 12 01:03:53 egaudet: so all patches removed successfully by EPR Jan 12 01:04:04 does pressing the middle of the gesture bar on the pre plus perform the minimize function of the button or are you required to use the swipe up gesture? Jan 12 01:05:24 nice Jan 12 01:05:26 WillJitsu: the Pixi lacks a middle button, and it behaves the same as the Pre (touch causes the card to minimize) Jan 12 01:05:33 therea re only a few rare circumstances where they wouldn't rwhitby Jan 12 01:06:07 svnackfin: cool. thanks. Jan 12 01:06:28 WillJitsu: I'm guessing the Pre Plus would be similiar to the Pixi in terms of neither having a button there Jan 12 01:06:36 egaudet: I might run WebOS Repair Tool as well, just to check Jan 12 01:06:54 svnackfin: yeah you're probably right Jan 12 01:06:59 the above md5sums run should have checked every single palm file Jan 12 01:07:32 egaudet: there's one file I need to replace, cause I didn't save it before I hacked it Jan 12 01:07:36 bah Jan 12 01:07:37 including the installed carrier packages that I don't know if RU checks? Jan 12 01:07:41 comcast dropped again Jan 12 01:07:42 rwhitby has the webos repair come out for 1.3.5 yet???? Jan 12 01:07:53 jmyaonpalmpre1: I haven't seen it Jan 12 01:08:02 can someone help me debug a spurious gdb msg? --> http://webos.pastebin.com/d629fa1f1 Jan 12 01:08:04 rwhitby, just update and let it get overwritten or keep it Jan 12 01:08:51 psykoz: i heard you have smartreflex enabled on your pre without problems.. could you tell me which OS version do you have installed? Jan 12 01:08:51 egaudet: yeah, that's true Jan 12 01:09:13 rwhitby: what do you mean when you recommend "use WOSQI 2.96"? Jan 12 01:09:16 for the EMH, you mean? Jan 12 01:09:16 OMG!!!!!!!!! Jan 12 01:09:19 1.3.5.2 for GSM!!!!!!!! Jan 12 01:09:31 Or is it old news? Jan 12 01:09:40 lingfish: bit slow on the uptake :P old news for the last hour Jan 12 01:09:49 good luck downloading, mine keeps failing ;) Jan 12 01:09:49 freakout: if you're going to use wosqi for anything, make sure it's 2.96 or later Jan 12 01:09:51 lol... so it only happened an hour ago? Jan 12 01:09:56 ah. gotcha Jan 12 01:10:14 freakout: you done it yet? Jan 12 01:10:16 * rwhitby is now ready to upgrade Jan 12 01:10:54 lingfish: No. LIke i said - downloading not working for me... keep getting "unable to connect" errors Jan 12 01:11:13 Upgrade doco is on internals right, re patches etc? Procedure? Jan 12 01:11:25 freakout: sorry I didn't even bother to scrollback, too excited :D Jan 12 01:11:38 lingfish: already on precentral.net Jan 12 01:11:57 synackfin: ta Jan 12 01:12:01 And it was on Palminfocenter two minutes before them :p Jan 12 01:12:16 freakout: oh god... child ;P Jan 12 01:12:33 you're pregnant? Jan 12 01:12:41 Has anyone ever gotten a notification of an update? I've always had to goto the Update app Jan 12 01:12:41 ssssssshhhh Jan 12 01:13:11 I always gone to update within minutes of finding out the update was out, so I dunno. I guess if I left it I might ;) Jan 12 01:13:24 Mine never has. Jan 12 01:13:26 lingfish: upgrade to latest Preware and Package Manager first. remove all wosqi tweaks and any theme. run epr. upgrade. reboot. run emh. done. Jan 12 01:13:27 Halfway downloaded now Jan 12 01:13:28 my wifes phone always gets updated automatically Jan 12 01:13:52 rwhitby: good lord... why so many steps?!?! Jan 12 01:14:04 lingfish: cause AUPT is not deployed yet Jan 12 01:14:16 That's the new thing with 1.3.5? Jan 12 01:14:20 freakout: check /var/lib/software/SessionFiles to track progress of the update Jan 12 01:14:32 lingfish: no, that's our new patch technology Jan 12 01:14:41 ah. Jan 12 01:14:56 freakout: downloading fine here Jan 12 01:15:01 Ling: try NOT doing any of those many steps in that order. THEN count how many steps to get back to sanity. Jan 12 01:15:03 new apps Jan 12 01:15:17 KEYofR: lol Jan 12 01:15:40 There's a few folks on Twitter reporting the same probs as me... Jan 12 01:16:16 Damn... I got it too. Jan 12 01:16:22 * Mousey notes he has no 1.3.5.2 update Jan 12 01:16:22 * Mousey is cdma Jan 12 01:16:32 so wait, we do have to EPR before the next update? Jan 12 01:16:47 rwhitby: added your instructions to PIC's post: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/10032/webos-1352-lands-in-europe/ Jan 12 01:17:12 rwhitby: this doco'd on internals anywhere? Jan 12 01:17:37 freakout: don't forget removing webosqi tweaks and any theme Jan 12 01:17:43 I have two updates: Optware Bootstrap, and PM Service Jan 12 01:17:50 freakout: do you have SDL running yet? :) Jan 12 01:18:53 Mousey: you're on 1.3.5.1, right? Jan 12 01:19:19 Mousey: it's GSM only Jan 12 01:19:37 * rwhitby rsyncs /var/lib/update and /var/lib/software .... Jan 12 01:19:41 can i do a system-wide find, without causing reboot on poor Luna ? I was trying find / -type f -exec grep -l "noaa" {} \; and; whomp. :) Jan 12 01:20:54 Anyone familiar with mcount() in libc? or what would trigger it so i know where to start looking for this sigsegv? Jan 12 01:21:04 freakout: I just got unable to connect too Jan 12 01:21:12 me too Jan 12 01:21:18 FreeTim: searching through /dev and a few other resources causes the reboot Jan 12 01:21:27 So EPR and EMH are in Preware I assume? Jan 12 01:21:40 zsoc: ok thanks. I'll try just the palm folders Jan 12 01:21:44 lingfish: yep Jan 12 01:21:53 And does EPR handily tell you what you had installed before removing? Jan 12 01:21:57 Or should I hand-note? Jan 12 01:22:02 FreeTim: I find that if I just run "find" and pipe it out to some crazy grep command, i get less crash issues Jan 12 01:22:07 freakout: oh, I'm into Unpacking now Jan 12 01:22:15 rwhitby: it's a LIE Jan 12 01:22:27 rwhitby: mine says that too. It'll still throw up an "unable to connect" after a little while Jan 12 01:22:37 rwhitby: do GSMers need to run the migration helper? Jan 12 01:22:40 zsoc: I wonder if he exhausted memory Jan 12 01:23:08 freakout: no lie, it's running /usr/share/downloadupdate/ipkgdelta Jan 12 01:23:11 zsoc: sure do Jan 12 01:23:12 got it Jan 12 01:23:15 or touched a sysfs file or dev file that freaks luna Jan 12 01:23:24 is there a way to get automake+friends working in the scratchbox env? Jan 12 01:23:24 zsoc: anyone migrating to 1.3.5.x does Jan 12 01:23:29 rwhitby: And does EPR handily tell you what you had installed before removing? Jan 12 01:23:32 destinal: likely, recursive greps will do it to Jan 12 01:23:35 dtzWill, they do work? Jan 12 01:23:37 dtzWill: they work by default Jan 12 01:23:38 lingfish: no it doesn't Jan 12 01:23:44 lingfish: don't forget your migration helper :P Jan 12 01:23:57 zsoc: ok but that's after updating... Jan 12 01:24:02 rwhitby: well it may be doing something, but it still gives an error for some reason. at least mine does Jan 12 01:24:04 so I just go into the list of installed and take note Jan 12 01:24:07 your FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD migration helper.. get it right, sheesh! :) Jan 12 01:24:10 lingfish: no, but run "ipkg -o /var list_installed | grep patches" if you're interested Jan 12 01:24:11 lingfish: I'm not so sure it matters before or after, but if they tell you after than after :) Jan 12 01:24:34 k, and k Jan 12 01:25:09 rwhitby: heh, empty result Jan 12 01:25:10 * rwhitby slows down the internet so his local rsync will finish before the update completes Jan 12 01:25:14 rhwitby, egaudet: hmm i tried modifying Makefile.in ... and that was a big mistake haha. Jan 12 01:25:16 easier to run EMH before an update because then it will migrate on first restart after update Jan 12 01:25:26 rwhitby: wrong -o ? Jan 12 01:25:30 dtzWill, i have modified configure.ac and Makefile.in in my project Jan 12 01:25:37 lingfish: no, you're still running 1.3.1 Jan 12 01:25:49 Odd that its blank Jan 12 01:25:56 have you run EPR yet? Jan 12 01:25:56 As I sure as shit have patches installed Jan 12 01:26:03 egaudet: alright. when it failed miserably complaining about missing things i just jumped to conclusions. at least we know it should work then :) Jan 12 01:26:11 rwhitby: Well no, I want to note what I have installed first :) Jan 12 01:26:20 jump to conclusions mat! Jan 12 01:26:30 lingfish: do you have a /media/cryptofs/apps ? Jan 12 01:26:37 In fact, I think it ran all on its own because I don't have a coloured batt anymore :/ Jan 12 01:26:49 ls: /media/cryptofs/apps: No such file or directory Jan 12 01:26:52 then again I think I commented out the version check for autoconf in one of the other m4 or ac files Jan 12 01:27:10 but I'm doing autoconf, configure, make in sb2 env Jan 12 01:27:16 rwhitby: when you install EPR, does it run itself? Jan 12 01:27:21 lingfish: yes Jan 12 01:27:32 lingfish: just like the Description says ;-) Jan 12 01:27:33 hrm, ok... but Preware is still listing stuff being installed... Jan 12 01:27:42 lingfish: update feeds Jan 12 01:27:42 lingfish, did you update feeds Jan 12 01:27:54 Can anyone help me get bluetooth tethering working with freeTether? I just launched the app for the first time and all the IP address fields are empty... Jan 12 01:27:55 yup Jan 12 01:28:03 lingfish: after running EPR? Jan 12 01:28:16 So i have a few things isntalled, but none of the category patch... sound right? Jan 12 01:28:23 yea Jan 12 01:28:25 yep Jan 12 01:28:26 Shit. Jan 12 01:28:27 EPR = Emergency Patch Recovery Jan 12 01:28:32 I wanted a list of my patches first! :P Jan 12 01:28:34 you don't need to uninstall anything else Jan 12 01:28:47 I didn't think an install would be a Launch Jan 12 01:28:59 lol Jan 12 01:29:01 lingfish: didn't read the description hey? Jan 12 01:29:02 ugh. Jan 12 01:29:10 lingfish: well now you know for next time :p Jan 12 01:29:18 I asked here! :P hahahahaa I harped on about noting the patches enough ;) Jan 12 01:29:20 egaudet: where's the control dir - anything left in there that might help lingfish Jan 12 01:29:31 the description is right there to read though lingfish :p Jan 12 01:29:39 rwhitby, no EPR wipes it Jan 12 01:29:43 ling well the description of the package DOES say it's going to do that. it COULD stress it a bit more though because I agree it's far from expected or nice behavior. Jan 12 01:29:49 I'M NOT BLOODY INTELLIGENT! And I'm too excited Jan 12 01:30:19 oo! Jan 12 01:30:21 EMERGENCY PATCH RECOVERY sound like a nice clean no worry tool to you? :P Jan 12 01:30:22 I did skim... but yeah, a quick "oh make your list before INSTALLING EPR fish" would have been handy ;) Jan 12 01:30:27 finally got past unpacking! Now "validating" Jan 12 01:30:42 but yea it'll die when AUPT is here Jan 12 01:30:43 egaudet: well no, my point is that most things install, but don't launch.. this does Jan 12 01:30:43 so no worries Jan 12 01:30:57 lingfish, there's nothing to launch, everything happens in the install script Jan 12 01:31:03 I watched the latest video on precentral, and Rubinstein clarified on one point about "doubling memory" (I wasn't sure at the first CES video whether it was flash storage and RAM or just flash storage), it seems _both_ have been doubled Jan 12 01:31:04 So should I be plugged into AC for this? Jan 12 01:31:17 lingfish: meh. depends on your battery level Jan 12 01:31:36 I don't know anymore, because my patch that made that easy is gone ;) Jan 12 01:31:38 synackfin: yes, confirmed both, many times in many places Jan 12 01:31:40 it's just a hackaround to run a script to make things more convenient when patches get weird states Jan 12 01:31:42 ling: also, it would be nice if, even if it launches, if it popped up a proceed/cancel button just like the patches. Jan 12 01:31:56 "There's a whole in the bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa" Jan 12 01:31:57 KEYofR: it does Jan 12 01:31:58 am I a bad person if I didn't EPR before going from 1.3.5 to .5.1? :p Jan 12 01:32:09 KEYofR: didn't you view the script before giving consent? Jan 12 01:32:16 rwhitby: no, it just gave the generic "need to run a script" Jan 12 01:32:18 KEYofR, it does Jan 12 01:32:26 :sigh: Jan 12 01:32:28 lingfish: right. you gave it consent :-) Jan 12 01:32:31 Perhaps for this, it should say something a little diff. Jan 12 01:32:36 without looking at the script Jan 12 01:32:38 That's all we're saying ;) Jan 12 01:32:48 So the description tells you what it is going to do, and you get a popup that asks for your permission... Jan 12 01:32:49 rwhitby: no but I trust you Rod ;) Jan 12 01:32:55 Ah ok, I didn't remember. I don;t run epr exactly very often. Jan 12 01:33:05 like, exactly one time ever so far. Jan 12 01:33:06 lingfish: http://omploader.org/vMzgybw/In-Rod-We-Trust.jpg Jan 12 01:33:07 egaudet: You're not listening.... the desc, fine.. should have read it... but the popup is generic... Jan 12 01:33:36 lingfish, yea I know but the popup tells you it's going to run a SCRIPT, and you can view it to see WHAT it does Jan 12 01:33:36 if it pops up the usual patch install ok/cancel, thats good enough. Jan 12 01:33:56 KEYofR: we have no way of popping up anything else until we port zenity to webOS Jan 12 01:34:03 Apparently -pg breaks on arm build, just so you know. Jan 12 01:34:22 egaudet: well yes... complacency. THIS script does sometihng quite diff to most... I know a good UI, and I'm just saying it should differentiate and only for EPR Jan 12 01:34:37 rwhitby: ahhhhhhh. Jan 12 01:34:38 lingfish, EVERY script does something different Jan 12 01:34:48 the only common ones are the patch ones Jan 12 01:34:50 lol. Ok I'm giving up. :) Jan 12 01:34:52 I'm updating. Jan 12 01:35:06 postinst is NOT a generic thing, it's a package-specific script Jan 12 01:35:06 I have 85% batt Jan 12 01:35:11 * freakout goes to hang out washing while he waits for install Jan 12 01:35:18 egaudet: got it working, the problem was that my autotools are 64bit and that maxs things wonky. Jan 12 01:35:21 freakout: like the picure? Jan 12 01:35:25 picture? Jan 12 01:35:32 if you blindly run any script that pops up then you shouldn't be surprised by the effects Jan 12 01:35:43 Apparently I'm at unpacking Jan 12 01:35:46 dtzWill, ahh I see Jan 12 01:35:57 regarding the cross-comp environment in general; my toolchain doesn't seem to find libraries that aren't explicitly symlink'ed to libfoo.so (libfoo.so.1, etc, are ignored). Jan 12 01:36:15 egaudet: You're talking like a coder, not like a UI designer :P In the interests of "who gives a shit", lets just drop it :) Jan 12 01:36:35 is that also a "just me" thing--? it's like we need to run ldconfig or something :) Jan 12 01:36:55 so is 1.3.1 -> 1.3.5.2 a binary delta update? if so, how big is it? Jan 12 01:36:58 dtzWill, I think that's the way life goes Jan 12 01:37:17 lingfish, I just know how things are and what preware is Jan 12 01:37:33 it's a generic package installer, without intimate knowledge of what a package is or does Jan 12 01:37:37 or was binary delta update introduced in 1.3.5 ? Jan 12 01:37:43 jacques: 13MB Jan 12 01:37:59 jacques: infra for binary deltas was in 1.3.1 Jan 12 01:38:04 rwhitby: so it is a delta update then? Jan 12 01:38:06 jacques: they started using it at 1.3. Jan 12 01:38:10 1.3.5 Jan 12 01:38:11 jacques: yes Jan 12 01:38:12 cool Jan 12 01:38:34 egaudet: well if it's for everyone, why not automate it? that was why i was asking :) Jan 12 01:39:10 dtzWill: yeah, the libraries have to be symlinked Jan 12 01:39:13 dtzWill, automate what? all your libs should be set up properly from cross compile staging Jan 12 01:39:32 dtzWill, which one is not? Jan 12 01:39:56 So... EMH... will that too "run" on install? So I shouldn't even install it while waiting for the update to unpack? Jan 12 01:39:59 interesting, ondevicedemo is in the updates Jan 12 01:40:06 lingfish: correct Jan 12 01:40:09 k. Jan 12 01:40:09 egaudet: libpng.so.* wasn't for me. Jan 12 01:40:31 libpng.so -> libpng12.so Jan 12 01:40:36 libpng12.so -> libpng12.so.0.27.0 Jan 12 01:40:44 it is for me Jan 12 01:41:00 dtzWill: did you clobber and stage recently? Jan 12 01:41:18 holy cow what a mess that might make, I wonder... (emh while still updating) Jan 12 01:41:28 egaudet: okay Jan 12 01:41:44 KEYofR: no, EMH is idempotent Jan 12 01:41:49 rwhitby: not for a while, no. should i? Jan 12 01:41:55 dtzWill: yes Jan 12 01:42:17 egaudet: glad it is for others; just a small nuisance for me wanted to make sure that wasn't something others were running into Jan 12 01:42:26 emh while updating doesn't sound like a problem to me, although I don't recommend it Jan 12 01:42:37 rwhitby: kk. i'll do that in a bit, i'll assume for now that it fixes it, sounds like it would. Jan 12 01:42:50 egaudet: in fact, EMH before might even be better Jan 12 01:42:58 rwhitby, yes I agree Jan 12 01:43:08 I state that to everyone who asks, saves you an extra restart Jan 12 01:43:49 Does anyone know Trygve Vea by any chance? Jan 12 01:46:10 freakout: might want to mention following @webosinternals on twitter for 1.3.5.2 migration help and updates. Jan 12 01:46:38 Almost done unpacking Jan 12 01:48:23 destinal: EvasTerminal is gonna be so sweet Jan 12 01:48:44 PuffTheMagic: but can't we call it something cooler? :) Jan 12 01:48:48 sure Jan 12 01:48:54 like what Jan 12 01:49:08 egaudet: you're right, findapps is overwritten so my file is fixed anyway Jan 12 01:49:08 uh, errm. Jan 12 01:49:26 terminas Jan 12 01:49:30 I like it Jan 12 01:49:32 what is the best way to install the freetether ipk's? Jan 12 01:49:41 or should that be terminus Jan 12 01:49:48 heck EPR is only really needed because of the ipkg <-> patch disconnect Jan 12 01:49:49 i read something saying that evas is kinda limited for terminal because of the way it handles text or something http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Evas Jan 12 01:50:00 the_snowdog: wosqi 2.96, unless you know how to run postinsts manually correctly. Jan 12 01:50:28 PuffTheMagic: terminus sounds cool, I had originally been thinking something like quickterm but now that sounds lame in comparison :) Jan 12 01:50:57 i can run postinsts but do i do "ipkg -o /var install ***.ipk" or just "ipkg install ***.ipk" with 1.3.5.1? Jan 12 01:51:00 rwhitby: you down with allowing ipks for evas (and the other required libs) that i build on gentoo in Preware Jan 12 01:51:11 till you can get them built in the crossbuilder? Jan 12 01:51:40 PuffTheMagic: so in getting Evas, is that basically a whole second desktop environment? Jan 12 01:51:43 in a card? Jan 12 01:51:44 PuffTheMagic: sure Jan 12 01:51:57 destinal: no e17 is the desktop env Jan 12 01:52:03 e17 is like gnome Jan 12 01:52:07 so Evas is just the framework, ok Jan 12 01:52:17 evas/edje/eet is like gtk or qt Jan 12 01:52:37 woot Jan 12 01:52:38 evas is part of efl Jan 12 01:52:39 last.fm app Jan 12 01:52:45 Was it just the easiest to port, or is enlghtenment simply cool? Jan 12 01:52:46 efl is what we need ipks for Jan 12 01:53:00 PuffTheMagic: as long as they are in /usr/local/lib .. Jan 12 01:53:37 Or.. oh, Evas is focused around embedded devices? Jan 12 01:53:44 destinal: the efl libs are sick Jan 12 01:53:47 and its all in C Jan 12 01:54:11 sweet virtual box ubuntu installed :D Jan 12 01:54:24 destinal: you have really never used e17? Jan 12 01:54:25 destinal: evas is rasterman's personal widget set and foundation library. it's sexy, fast and portable. Jan 12 01:54:32 PuffTheMagic: really Jan 12 01:54:43 destinal: you should go do that :D Jan 12 01:54:54 evas is a canvas Jan 12 01:54:59 * rwhitby has only run e17 on an openmoko phone, nowhere else Jan 12 01:55:02 rwhitby: enlightenment is the widget set Jan 12 01:55:10 now to install the SDK stuffs Jan 12 01:55:11 and thats fairly new Jan 12 01:55:16 i dont remember seeing before today Jan 12 01:55:36 right, enlightenment is what he developed during openmoko Jan 12 01:55:57 how is /usr/local/lib going to get into the LD_PRELOAD_PATH Jan 12 01:56:09 exes will have -rpath Jan 12 01:56:16 LD_LIBRARY_PATH Jan 12 01:56:43 rwhitby: i thought -rpath-link was the "better" choice Jan 12 01:56:48 based on todays discussion Jan 12 01:56:52 not saying we will use LD_LIBRARY_PATH, just that I think you meant LD_LIBRARY_PATH instead of LD_PRELOAD_PATH Jan 12 01:56:56 wewt. Jan 12 01:57:01 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Apache updated Jan 12 01:57:03 Ok.. I am back. Jan 12 01:57:04 -rpath-link is only for link-time, not for run-time Jan 12 01:57:38 nebula: nice - everything with unchanged optware packages? Jan 12 01:57:45 yeah I was trying a glues demo built only with -rpath-link and it did not find the lib in /usr/local/lib - I will rebuild with -rpath Jan 12 01:57:47 rwhitby: how goes the trac? Jan 12 01:57:54 how do i get rw access entire filesystem when sftping to the pre with winscp? Jan 12 01:57:57 jacques: you need both at link time Jan 12 01:58:09 i already remounted rw Jan 12 01:58:13 stiiiiiiiiil unpacking. Jan 12 01:58:30 cal_: use OpenSSH SFTP Server from Preware, and log in as root using ssh keys as detailed in the OpenSSH homepage link in Preware. Jan 12 01:58:33 rwhitby: yeah, thats why i'm checking it now.. i had hardlinked the old versions. I just changed the instructions to simply ipkg-opt install Jan 12 01:58:33 rwhitby: yeah I didn't know that before Jan 12 01:58:36 PuffTheMagic: So you like Terminus or evaTerm / eveTerm or uh. anyone have a better idea for a name? Jan 12 01:58:49 Terminus sounds like it might exist already Jan 12 01:58:51 if not sure Jan 12 01:59:07 eterm ? Jan 12 01:59:08 Interm Jan 12 01:59:20 jacques: that exists Jan 12 01:59:22 what's your load average without any extras in optware? Jan 12 01:59:25 You know, like a play on words. Jan 12 01:59:28 jacques: the -rpath-link is so libs that are linked that depend on other stuff which is not mentioned can find the deps at link time. -rpath is so the same thing happens at run time. Jan 12 01:59:31 d'oh Jan 12 01:59:32 PuffTheMagic: uh, the ultimate data destruction toolkit Jan 12 01:59:34 i'm at 1.13, 0.96, 2.24 Jan 12 01:59:36 rwhitby: you mean in the webosinternals wiki? Jan 12 01:59:39 leave no traces Jan 12 01:59:50 upgrade completed, EMH done. Jan 12 01:59:57 Now to reinstall all my precious patches. (sigh) Jan 12 02:00:04 rwhitby: OK I will make sure to put both in my Makefile for the glues-demos Jan 12 02:00:21 too bad novaTerm is taken :P Jan 12 02:00:39 freakout: bastard ;) ETA on the unpack? Jan 12 02:00:47 rwhitby: did u see my request to add a "hidden" option/flag in the feed so that we can flag ipks that Preware should hide from normal user visibility Jan 12 02:00:57 like the custom so's Jan 12 02:01:02 lingfish: I really dunno, I restarted mine halfway through a dozen times... Jan 12 02:01:02 that no one will care about seeing Jan 12 02:01:11 and that will e-mail me asking what they are Jan 12 02:01:13 :D Jan 12 02:01:19 yo rwhitby: There's no need for the "partial app limit fix" anymore is there? Jan 12 02:01:41 freakout: ok... I'm at 100% and have been for a while Jan 12 02:04:14 does cryptofs protect users from a someone stealing their Pre? Jan 12 02:04:52 no Jan 12 02:05:08 synackfin: It's purely there to steal your credit card details. Jan 12 02:05:15 ird: if the thief doesn't know the PIN to enter in the UI, and tries to scan the disk directly, I thought cryptofs wouldn't show anything? Jan 12 02:05:38 it's suppose to protect developers' intellectual properties. Jan 12 02:06:09 synackfin: cryptofs is there to protect the apps you buy from you casually copying them Jan 12 02:06:11 synackfin: I read that as... "Will cryptofs keep someone from stealing my phone?" :p Jan 12 02:06:15 Kyusaku: sure, that's what it's there for, but I wonder if _also_ helps the user with privacy Jan 12 02:06:41 synackfin: nah, all that stuff was never on /media/internal Jan 12 02:07:03 ird: sorry, meant to ask protect someone who stole their phone from reading confidential material (email, etc) Jan 12 02:07:16 why is sdlvnc in nonworking? Jan 12 02:07:17 synackfin: I know, I was just being a smart ass. Jan 12 02:07:21 ird: =P Jan 12 02:07:39 synackfin: yeah it doesn't help you, all that stuff is on another filesystem anyway that's not encrypted but also not available to usb Jan 12 02:07:52 (mass storage usb disk mode I mean) Jan 12 02:07:59 Validating :) Jan 12 02:08:33 destinal: hmm, I wondering if a patch to move confidential material (emails, call log, etc) to cryptofs (with the original locations symlinked to the new place) would be benefitial? Jan 12 02:08:59 if you're phone is stolen you can remote wipe it, that is the theft deterrent Jan 12 02:09:23 Kyusaku: that takes a while, though - and the phone could be off Jan 12 02:09:40 Kyusaku: remote wipe won't work with a turned off phone, and someone can scan the flash storage Jan 12 02:09:47 I dunno I've never done it Jan 12 02:10:00 eterm already exists, and is enlightenments terminla in older enlightenment pre evas. maybe just evt? Jan 12 02:10:08 isn't data held in SQL libraries anyways? Jan 12 02:10:24 Kyusaku: not the SQL library, but the SQL database, sure Jan 12 02:10:32 eterm-ng ? Jan 12 02:10:46 Kyusaku: but the database is just a file, and can be moved and symlinked back Jan 12 02:10:52 evas virtula terminal ala rxvt Jan 12 02:11:14 cal_: no, I mean in preware for the package, and the homepage link in the preware description Jan 12 02:11:14 I think it would be very useful to put confidential material in cryptofs Jan 12 02:11:14 eeterm Jan 12 02:11:20 eet Jan 12 02:11:22 ? Jan 12 02:11:52 but I don' know how their cryptofs is configured -- if someone boots the phone and does -not- enter the correct UI pin, can they access cryptofs? Jan 12 02:12:03 PuffTheMagic: saw the request for hidden option. as long as it's a preference in Preware, then that's fine I think. Jan 12 02:12:20 yeah it could be a pref too Jan 12 02:12:27 freakout: turn app limit fix off. it will be removed in next preware version Jan 12 02:12:36 rwhitby: you see my request in trac of Preware? To add category browsing to installed list? Jan 12 02:13:28 hey dBsooner - y'know your "Enter key for new line" patch? Jan 12 02:13:31 synackfin: yes, they can. Jan 12 02:13:37 not mine Jan 12 02:13:42 but what of it? :) Jan 12 02:13:45 maybe just go ahead and claim de-facto status and call it preterm Jan 12 02:13:55 lol. you're listed as a maintainer. maybe i should talk to acydlord instead Jan 12 02:14:01 synackfin: since they can doctor it, keeping /media/internal, and then novaterm in and get the stuff Jan 12 02:14:12 dBsooner: I was wondering if there was a way you could make it *display* the line breaks in messages, too. Jan 12 02:14:14 yeah.. I am just listed there because I ported it Jan 12 02:14:26 dBsooner: you're either a maintainer or not .... ;) Jan 12 02:14:39 * dBsooner goes to remove his name from maintainer on every patch Jan 12 02:15:13 dBsooner: why do you think I put "WebOS Internals" on everything ;-) Jan 12 02:15:13 rwhitby: hmm, that's unfortunate. I wish they tied their cryptofs to the PIN Jan 12 02:15:27 Sneaky Sneaky rwhitby. Jan 12 02:15:30 synackfin: that's not what it's designed for Jan 12 02:15:34 rwhitby: I would love to have a confidential material on my phone and not worry about it Jan 12 02:15:46 rwhitby: maybe Palm will create an Obama-version :) Jan 12 02:15:50 synackfin: port the truecypt kernel driver Jan 12 02:15:54 destinal: check out http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Elementary Jan 12 02:16:14 destinal: see the wigetes we get for free using evas Jan 12 02:16:20 and see how good the raster scaling is Jan 12 02:16:48 raster's stuff is awesome Jan 12 02:16:51 the list widget is super slick Jan 12 02:17:05 and the sliders Jan 12 02:17:08 wow Jan 12 02:18:35 i want to make a hole new UI in evas Jan 12 02:18:58 but cards are cool Jan 12 02:19:04 so does the html canvas tag work on webos now? Jan 12 02:19:28 PuffTheMagic: do we have opengl-es in evas working yet? Jan 12 02:19:37 no idea Jan 12 02:19:50 i need to get normal evas/sdl buildin in my gentoo setup first Jan 12 02:20:08 the main thing, In SWSURFACE I'm seeing a lot of ugly drawing problems Jan 12 02:20:42 opengl is the easiest way to fix Jan 12 02:20:49 i see speed issues Jan 12 02:21:04 but that was all with sdl games Jan 12 02:21:16 the evas demo looked and ran perfect Jan 12 02:21:23 ok cool Jan 12 02:21:38 destinal: did you run it? Jan 12 02:21:42 no Jan 12 02:21:48 * rwhitby finally clicks "Install now" Jan 12 02:22:36 xcomp: ping Jan 12 02:23:58 anyone know why 'find / -name "torch_current"' on the pixi returns ERROR 12: Connection Reset Jan 12 02:24:24 yeah Jan 12 02:24:30 dont do that on / Jan 12 02:24:35 cause it touches something in /dev Jan 12 02:24:39 and the device reboot Jan 12 02:24:40 PreGame: could be a FIFO or something it is hitting Jan 12 02:24:42 or gets pissed off Jan 12 02:24:50 thats weird Jan 12 02:24:53 maybe it's time to revisit linux on my ps3 .. it was neat but not useful last year with the then current ydl 6 and e16 even with the vram driver Jan 12 02:24:54 it works on the pre but not the pixi Jan 12 02:25:04 PreGame: not really... not smart to do on any Unix instlal Jan 12 02:25:07 should i just cd / then find . -name "torch_current" Jan 12 02:25:59 i would assume you are looking for the sysfs interface for it so look in /sys Jan 12 02:26:25 Installed... oh yeah :) Jan 12 02:26:48 1.3.5.2? Jan 12 02:26:51 whats in that? Jan 12 02:26:56 I did a find on / yesterday with nor problems. "find / -name mediaserver -print" no problem. found two files a binary and a start script Jan 12 02:26:59 PuffTheMagic: GSM 1.3.5 Jan 12 02:27:02 EU update Jan 12 02:27:08 oh Jan 12 02:27:22 PreGame: it's a file in /sys somewhere Jan 12 02:27:51 this was in Terminal on-device, not logged in via ssh Jan 12 02:28:08 * rwhitby attempts a direct update from 1.1.2 to 1.3.5.2 on the other GSM Pre Jan 12 02:28:27 PuffTheMagic: woeTerm (webos+evas) Okay, it has maybe a negative connotation :) Jan 12 02:28:29 it's completely virgin, never been in dev mode Jan 12 02:28:33 So now... EMH... Jan 12 02:28:42 i liked Terminus better Jan 12 02:28:46 me too Jan 12 02:29:02 I don't think anyone will confuse this new app with a data detruction utility Jan 12 02:29:08 s/det/dest/ Jan 12 02:29:09 destinal meant: I don't think anyone will confuse this new app with a data destruction utility Jan 12 02:29:11 for PC's Jan 12 02:29:11 rod: has it been collecting dust? Jan 12 02:29:37 evas/eina/eet from git built on my arm system :D Jan 12 02:29:44 cool Jan 12 02:29:49 * destinal switches to wirc Jan 12 02:29:53 so if someone gets the code for that and ports the gl stuff to gles i will build it to that Jan 12 02:30:08 Kyusaku: only got it a few days ago Jan 12 02:30:29 Kyusaku: it's the hardware backup for my main phone, since I can't just go to the local Sprint store if my phone dies. Jan 12 02:30:38 Again no problems for me "find / -name torch_current -print" no problem. found "/sys/class/12c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0033/torch_current Jan 12 02:30:48 rod: oh I see Jan 12 02:30:49 on-deviec terminal Jan 12 02:32:02 doh, my virgin GSM Pre wants a sim in it before it will update Jan 12 02:32:17 it's never been meta-doctored Jan 12 02:32:52 * rwhitby hunts for second sim ... Jan 12 02:32:54 works from a putty/ssh/dropbear login too Jan 12 02:33:41 just any sim? Jan 12 02:34:21 destinal-wirc: yeah, I have a spare at home :-( Jan 12 02:34:29 rwhitby: call me crazy, i'd like to make an ipk for cacti Jan 12 02:34:35 could you assist? Jan 12 02:34:42 nebula: it's not in optware already? Jan 12 02:34:47 i'll check Jan 12 02:34:56 ok I'm slow, sorry PreGame , I just noticed you already said it works fone on Pre but fails on Pixi Jan 12 02:35:16 rwhitby: Cannot find package cacti. Jan 12 02:35:22 nebula: if not, yeah I can get you set up for that. Jan 12 02:35:26 cool beans Jan 12 02:35:30 i can build it, etc. Jan 12 02:35:37 just need to know how to make the package Jan 12 02:36:00 nebula: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Optware/AddAPackageToOptware Jan 12 02:37:40 rwhitby: can't you pull sim out of main phone for a few mins? Jan 12 02:37:57 destinal-wirc: not while it's updating to 1.3.5.2 :-) Jan 12 02:39:11 I am all done :) Jan 12 02:39:11 yay. Jan 12 02:41:07 cool Jan 12 02:41:18 there you go. update finished, and SSH right back in. gotta love optware. Jan 12 02:41:44 (well, gotta love doing things in ways that don't conflict with vendor files) Jan 12 02:42:08 I haven't tried that yet, heh. Jan 12 02:45:01 Hrm, Google Maps traffic still don't work :( Jan 12 02:45:07 It did, once Jan 12 02:45:20 * rwhitby runs EMH Jan 12 02:46:33 Now to remember my patches Jan 12 02:47:27 lingfish: go play quake? Jan 12 02:47:42 zsoc: in Preware I assume? Jan 12 02:48:25 * rwhitby waits for "Updating the system" after restarting Luna for EMH Jan 12 02:48:31 what is case insensitive find command? Jan 12 02:48:32 lingfish: of course Jan 12 02:48:42 PreGame: there isn't one Jan 12 02:48:47 PreGame: use regex's Jan 12 02:49:04 serious? no flag? Jan 12 02:49:12 negative. Jan 12 02:49:14 find in linux? Jan 12 02:49:22 egaudet yes Jan 12 02:49:30 linux is case sensitive Jan 12 02:49:33 So if you're looking for "Forward" or "forward"... use '[Ff]orward' Jan 12 02:49:36 oh i see the in Jan 12 02:49:41 sorry i'm tired lol Jan 12 02:49:42 All Unices are :P Jan 12 02:50:06 PreGame, -iname Jan 12 02:50:11 find . -iname whatever Jan 12 02:50:27 k Jan 12 02:50:39 Unices!lol Jan 12 02:50:46 :D Jan 12 02:51:00 pfft... iname. Jan 12 02:51:03 WEAK Jan 12 02:51:08 is there a changelog for 1.3.5.2? Jan 12 02:51:30 yokken: just look at the 1.3.5 changelog Jan 12 02:51:31 thanks egaudet Jan 12 02:51:42 np Jan 12 02:51:55 egaudet: you got a pre? Jan 12 02:51:56 err Jan 12 02:51:58 pixi Jan 12 02:52:02 no Jan 12 02:52:22 darn Jan 12 02:52:53 this is pissing me off Jan 12 02:52:54 anyone know why palm pre sdk requires virtual box? Jan 12 02:53:09 the pixi's /sys/class/i2c-adapter is WAY different than the pre's Jan 12 02:53:14 for emulator Jan 12 02:53:15 cant find the darn led flash in there Jan 12 02:53:44 is it better than safari? i preferred that Jan 12 02:54:02 dtzWill: ping Jan 12 02:54:08 yokken: pong Jan 12 02:54:15 how's vba going? Jan 12 02:54:22 i finally got my cross-compiler up Jan 12 02:54:23 virtualbox is like vmware Jan 12 02:54:31 chron__: virtual box and safari are two completely different things Jan 12 02:54:31 yokken: wonderfully Jan 12 02:54:35 yokken: good Jan 12 02:54:43 do you have a pre-pre-pre-alpha build yet? Jan 12 02:55:17 yokken: either it's in preware/cross-compile.git/nonworking, or it doesn't exist ;-) Jan 12 02:55:30 rwhitby: so does vbox actually emulate the palm OS while safari just runs the js shit? Jan 12 02:55:41 lol :( Jan 12 02:55:51 no it doesnt emulate, it's running x86 webos Jan 12 02:56:03 * rwhitby wonders what chron__ has against the js to be cussing it so ... Jan 12 02:56:23 nah, may as well have been saying "jawn" or "stuff" Jan 12 02:56:26 i have tons of shit against public and private key with the ssh/stfp server Jan 12 02:56:36 not using "shit" in a derogatory way Jan 12 02:56:48 lol Jan 12 02:56:55 hmm Jan 12 02:57:27 it's for emulating x86 pc to run abn x86 build of webos Jan 12 02:57:33 chron__: virtualbox actually emulates an x86, and webOS SDK has a cross-compiled version of webOS for qemu86 that runs on it Jan 12 02:57:42 like a simulated pre Jan 12 02:57:43 sigh i dont wanna update to 1.3.5.2 Jan 12 02:57:55 why not? Jan 12 02:57:56 oh im wrong Jan 12 02:57:57 heh Jan 12 02:58:12 it doesn't have a changelog Jan 12 02:58:17 only 1.3.5.1 does Jan 12 02:58:21 etx_: it is an x96 webos Jan 12 02:58:35 1.3.5.1 killed my overclock :( Jan 12 02:58:39 yokken: it's a 0.0.0.2 against 1.3.5 - read the 1.3.5 changelog Jan 12 02:58:41 rwhitby: ah ok, I thought it did Jan 12 02:58:47 i have 1.3.5.1 Jan 12 02:58:59 i just want to know why i have to clear my patches and theme for 1.3.5.2 but not 1.3.5.1 Jan 12 02:59:10 yokken: 1.3.5.2 is GSM only at the moment Jan 12 02:59:17 wat Jan 12 02:59:29 lol they didn't get 1.3.5.1, but they get 1.3.5.2 Jan 12 02:59:31 that's silly **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 12 02:59:56 2010