**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 28 02:59:56 2010 Jan 28 03:00:19 jtee: i gave up being curious, as it is i never get anything done :P Jan 28 03:00:27 i agree... it's probably a conflict with another patch... but why won't it then remove or update with preware Jan 28 03:00:57 jtee: because it never installed. when the patch prerm is ran (to _actually_ remove it) it can't, because it's not there Jan 28 03:01:35 jtee: this is what i was talking about, giving a "force removal" option which skips the prerm, but as egaudet brings out, in certain cases this can seriously break things, with no solution but repair utility or doctor Jan 28 03:01:39 that makes sense with the 'unreversed patch' part Jan 28 03:02:34 egaudet: i feel if we can make at least certain parts of homebrew _breakproof_, for anyone, we can get closer to having palm's and dealers backing Jan 28 03:02:55 as it is preware is everywhere. it's on people's phone's who have never plugged it in to a computer before Jan 28 03:03:20 autofixing is a big part of breakproofing, imo Jan 28 03:03:28 (those are technical terms obviously) Jan 28 03:04:52 * jtee wishes he had a little bit of time to play on the innards of his pre Jan 28 03:04:57 zsoc: how do they have it they have never plugged into a computer? Is there an OTA way to install? Jan 28 03:04:59 there's no autofixing here Jan 28 03:05:29 Tibfib|away: no, other's installing for them. i've seen many dealer stores installing preware or using it to fix customer complaints (text size, lack of tethering, etc) Jan 28 03:05:32 the only time a patch can't remove with AUPT (aside from rare OTA update multi package stuff) is if the order of removal matters Jan 28 03:05:45 zsoc: okay gotcha... hah Jan 28 03:06:03 and then of course anything outside of preware is not in my jurisdiction so if you modify files outside of webos-patches feed then I can't autofix anything anyway Jan 28 03:06:33 egaudet: well, your ondevice auto repair thingy :> Jan 28 03:06:38 egaudet, so if i reinstall this patch now - with my updated preware - i should be able to remove it? Jan 28 03:06:59 jtee: IF there was a problem, it would be installing it, not removing it Jan 28 03:07:04 in theory at least Jan 28 03:07:23 jtee: unless you have a persistent issue, then you would have the same issue you had last time Jan 28 03:07:56 i suspect a conflict with an existing patch Jan 28 03:08:12 so... I'll just get another fine beer and not worry Jan 28 03:08:26 jtee: good idea :> Jan 28 03:08:35 zsoc, yea that on device repair thingy I should probably get to working on Jan 28 03:09:05 egaudet: seriously, it's a ridiculously good idea. Jan 28 03:09:10 * jtee goes to get a sweetwater festive ale Jan 28 03:09:22 egaudet: er... what happens if someone tries to 'repair' a file that was changed by a currently installed patch? Jan 28 03:09:49 zsoc, I do magic Jan 28 03:09:50 egaudet: could it detect that in the status file and warn the user that that file was changed by a currently installed patch? Jan 28 03:09:56 egaudet: or offer to uninstall it etc? Jan 28 03:10:36 god i love this phone, seriously Jan 28 03:10:59 that's a crappy situation, but I'd probably end up saying "you can't come to a REPAIR utility with patches installed... goodbye!" Jan 28 03:11:29 and then change my mind and make it be super cool and patch aware Jan 28 03:11:29 egaudet: oh.. that's no good really imo. i mean i suppose it's _nice_ but it's not good Jan 28 03:11:30 sorry... i lied... it's a sweetwater happy ending - a hoppy imperial stout Jan 28 03:11:46 egaudet: wait, doesn't th status file contain every system file affected by a patch? Jan 28 03:12:00 status file? no Jan 28 03:12:00 or something must? quilt? we don't use that anymore no... lol Jan 28 03:12:16 egaudet: SOMETHING must, all the patch rm files? Jan 28 03:12:27 egaudet: just grep them all :P why am i telling you? you know what you're doing lol Jan 28 03:12:40 the patch technology keeps track of what it touches in /var/usr/lib/.webosinternals.patches/backups Jan 28 03:12:48 and all the .patch files are copied there too Jan 28 03:13:04 there you go Jan 28 03:13:18 It's just that you get into stupid situation when you want to repair a patched file Jan 28 03:13:50 the utility has to basically be recursive Jan 28 03:14:38 egaudet: maybe i'm missing something. if the touches are tracked, they can be checked against currently installed patches, where is the issue? Jan 28 03:14:45 man...I was away and missed everything you guys talked about lol Jan 28 03:14:53 if file A is determined to be bad, and you want to repair it Jan 28 03:14:58 sorry... i lied... it's a sweetwater happy ending - a hoppy imperial stout Jan 28 03:15:20 you have to repair all files in all patches that touch A as well as all files in all patches that touch any file that all patches that touch A touch, and then again and it can keep growing Jan 28 03:15:48 egaudet: no you don't, you just say "hey, remove patch so-and-so first before you repair this file" Jan 28 03:15:53 screen-lock-enable-led-notifications.patch! Jan 28 03:15:54 which is why a "repair all" option is easiest Jan 28 03:16:11 zsoc, the whole point of repairing is broken patch removal Jan 28 03:16:26 egaudet: but that method is much more userfriendly than "just remove all your frickin' patches", people don't want to hear that,. they'll just doctor Jan 28 03:16:27 the repair cannot be sensitive it has to be robust Jan 28 03:16:39 zsoc, then don't go to the damn repair utility Jan 28 03:16:53 why would you go to repair utility to repair a file that is patched unless the patch can't remove itself Jan 28 03:16:53 * zsoc forks egaudet's repair utility Jan 28 03:17:03 lol Jan 28 03:17:27 I don't get what you are solving by saying "repair file" "Oh go remvoe your patch" Jan 28 03:17:44 user: "hmm nice repair utility" :rolleyes: :walksaway: Jan 28 03:17:46 so are you guys still debating this? I missed a lot of what you said. didn't catch a fix for this patch being stuck Jan 28 03:17:52 egaudet: i suppose you're right. i just haven't gotten to the admitting it part yet lol Jan 28 03:18:07 PrfndHatrd: your patch? i didn't catch it, we're talking about something unrelated Jan 28 03:18:32 zsoc, and then of course I thought of making a patch stat app of sorts Jan 28 03:18:33 landscape messaging is stuck :/ won't remove or update Jan 28 03:18:46 egaudet: ok, well make sure you have a 'revert to original theme' button for people who OTA with a theme installed Jan 28 03:18:49 an hour and eighteen minutes already! Jan 28 03:18:57 make it easy to see what patches touch what files, what depends on what etc... but that's really ick Jan 28 03:19:23 holy crap it just removed Jan 28 03:19:36 PrfndHatrd: lol, dependency much? Jan 28 03:19:43 I've tried 8 times. even restarted device. Jan 28 03:19:52 here the thing.. Jan 28 03:20:13 I opened up webosquick install, figured I'd try reinstalling it from there Jan 28 03:20:19 but it errored out also Jan 28 03:20:25 george washingtons state of the union message was 5 minutes' Jan 28 03:20:53 PrfndHatrd: heh, if it broke the prerm, you didn't actually fix anything, you just force-removed it Jan 28 03:21:00 PrfndHatrd: which _may_ have fixed something, may not have Jan 28 03:21:04 but this time after trying quick install...preware removed it Jan 28 03:21:55 why don't i have a ondemand folder for the powersave cpu hack on my pre? who can i pm about it so i don't flood the main message board Jan 28 03:22:32 but it still won't reinstall after Jan 28 03:23:03 PrfndHatrd: right, because you never uninstalled it, you broke the prerm file that tells preware that it can't uninstall it for some reason Jan 28 03:23:05 bah Jan 28 03:24:09 what is in the prerm file? (I understand patch files in the big linux world) Jan 28 03:24:53 jtee after you untar the ipk file, you may need to run a post-install script, and before REMOVING the application you may need to run a PRE-REMOVAL script Jan 28 03:25:10 you guess which the prerm is.... exercise for the student. Jan 28 03:25:23 hehe i think i have it figured Jan 28 03:25:29 I thought you might Jan 28 03:26:03 QI removes the ipkg data even when prerm fails Jan 28 03:26:13 yep. Jan 28 03:26:14 it's naughty Jan 28 03:26:20 but it doesn't UN PATCH Jan 28 03:26:20 http://i.imgur.com/5vREa.png Jan 28 03:26:33 it just removes the ipkg data. Jan 28 03:26:41 This is an on-going issue we have with JR. Jan 28 03:26:49 well, that and handling dependencies... Jan 28 03:26:58 is qi causing more havoc or a workaround? Jan 28 03:27:02 yea and apparently themes are higher priority :/ Jan 28 03:27:03 who can i pm about powersave and power reflex cpu stuff? i have a few questions Jan 28 03:27:09 well that and handling dependencies and his "tweaks" which untim recently didn't USE ipk's... Jan 28 03:27:23 ghostinator who's the maintainer for those patches??? Jan 28 03:27:54 acydlord, great one ;) Jan 28 03:28:10 well then, there's your answer. Jan 28 03:28:12 destinal, it is actually both lol Jan 28 03:28:25 it says a name on the wiki, but no email. Jan 28 03:28:26 rick-home: the issue in this case is bad, he couldn't uninstall the patch because of a dependency problem, not because it wasn't installed, so indeed he seems to have a truly unreversed patch Jan 28 03:28:36 depending on what situation you are in Jan 28 03:28:42 zsoc, that IS bad. Jan 28 03:29:05 zsoc, could you untar the ipk into the right place, and then run the prerm? Jan 28 03:29:28 can we remove qi from the internets? all 5 of them? :) Jan 28 03:29:28 rick-home: er.. not really. he could fix the touched file with the original from a doctor image :P Jan 28 03:29:34 lol Jan 28 03:29:47 there isn't a "do the opposite of this patch" command? Jan 28 03:30:06 'cause THAT sucks. Jan 28 03:30:08 destinal: hey, respect, qi gets people preware 95% of the time :P Jan 28 03:30:09 but wit new AUPT patches if you can't install it then there's a conflict Jan 28 03:30:26 aupt is smart enough to jump around these issues caused by outside factors Jan 28 03:30:48 zsoc: only because we fail at installer Jan 28 03:30:54 we don't have to Jan 28 03:31:03 destinal: why anyway? We're lazy? i mean seriously it would be easy Jan 28 03:31:17 destinal: we can just forget it now, we need a web based install STAT Jan 28 03:31:29 could we write a windows batch program or something that ran novacom exec wget preware-bootstrap ; novacom exec preware-bootstrap :p Jan 28 03:31:48 egaudet: in about 2 seconds :p Jan 28 03:31:55 well ppldont have sdk Jan 28 03:32:00 I call lies on that Jan 28 03:32:02 nova.. term? Jan 28 03:32:11 * zsoc knows nothing about windows Jan 28 03:32:17 how does qi work? doctor image? Jan 28 03:32:20 what would you choose: install sdk or download 200MB doctor all the time Jan 28 03:32:36 true Jan 28 03:32:49 Windows batch program "if novacom doesn't exist, open browser to palm's sdk page" Jan 28 03:32:51 * jtee had windows on his netbook ... for 45 minutes Jan 28 03:32:59 we can do without sdk tho Jan 28 03:33:03 egaudet: has anyone _asked_ palm if we can distribute their novacom? Jan 28 03:33:33 heck let's just write precomd :P Jan 28 03:33:40 what is precomd's limitation? Jan 28 03:33:43 linux only? Jan 28 03:33:54 it's already there Jan 28 03:34:06 what was novacom originally used for? who owns it? Jan 28 03:34:19 zsoc, if there's an open way for people to get it from Palm, and you can get it onto people's windows boxes from there... sounds like it's kosher Jan 28 03:34:21 it's oss by bpadalino Jan 28 03:34:31 precomd Jan 28 03:34:34 I mean Jan 28 03:35:05 jtee: the only way is sdk or doctor image, both suck / are huge optionwise Jan 28 03:35:14 bpadalino did precomd? Jan 28 03:35:24 i'd imagine that's a linux only daemon... Jan 28 03:35:35 doesn't have tobbe Jan 28 03:35:44 egaudet, cygwinx? Jan 28 03:35:48 to be Jan 28 03:35:57 might be moot in march Jan 28 03:36:30 or not Jan 28 03:36:41 can we put in a palm-web type:game thingy right now, or no? Jan 28 03:36:50 yup Jan 28 03:36:50 we need a windows exe that a user can just double click with preware usb plugged in and dev mode on and then get preware with 0 hassle Jan 28 03:37:05 still how get type game on there Jan 28 03:37:11 have we submitted something like that? Jan 28 03:37:13 how do you get type: game into people's pre though Jan 28 03:37:14 right Jan 28 03:37:31 the web apps Jan 28 03:37:42 type: game not accepted on web distribution Jan 28 03:37:46 then nevermind :p Jan 28 03:37:51 zsoc: palm won't yet accept type game Jan 28 03:38:17 otherwise we'd already have had someone put a rm -rf script up there Jan 28 03:38:30 ok then... cygwin + bpadalino's thing Jan 28 03:38:36 and be "we'd" I mean someone out there not anyone around here Jan 28 03:38:46 egaudet: right, need a sandbox first, will in march Jan 28 03:39:03 is that smaller than sdk ? Jan 28 03:39:14 sandbox will stop preware Jan 28 03:39:14 jtee: i would imagine a million times smaller, but again i'm no windows guy Jan 28 03:39:21 but still is SDK on windows really a hassle? Jan 28 03:39:29 destinal: sandbox will not stop preware Jan 28 03:39:30 cygwin is neat but not tiny Jan 28 03:39:49 what? Jan 28 03:40:07 jtee: yes it's tiny Jan 28 03:40:18 destinal: we will break it, like we do everything Jan 28 03:40:36 destinal: but that's an interesting point, if it's implemented properly preware just won't work. Jan 28 03:40:36 zsoc then we will get banned Jan 28 03:40:51 destinal: banned from.. what? OH you mean if it's in app catalog Jan 28 03:40:52 hmm. Jan 28 03:40:54 good point Jan 28 03:41:01 if they only accept sandboxed apps... Jan 28 03:41:13 Why has no one written an app which is just an on-device manual for preware installation and usage? Jan 28 03:41:22 and submit it to the catalog? Jan 28 03:41:45 destinal: so preware will work, just not in the app catalog :P so we're back where we are now, i think that's ok. Jan 28 03:42:02 of course i don't know how big the sdk is either Jan 28 03:43:16 yeah well I figure a program to install it through cryptofs over usb drive would be cool Jan 28 03:43:44 until palm sandboxes Jan 28 03:44:48 then it breaks Jan 28 03:45:01 with type game no root Jan 28 03:45:18 destinal: well then we don't use type game... Jan 28 03:45:30 later guys..thanks for the help Jan 28 03:45:46 yeah but then cryptofs hack useless Jan 28 03:45:51 destinal, what breaks with it? Jan 28 03:46:04 type: game no root, what breaks? Jan 28 03:46:12 destinal: which hack? Jan 28 03:46:22 I was trying to skip devmode :) Jan 28 03:46:23 egaudet: if preware doesn't have root.. it can't uh.. do things. Jan 28 03:46:30 destinal: oh lol, that's probably silly Jan 28 03:46:56 oh yeah right things Jan 28 03:47:06 I've clearly said too many things tonight, I'm going to go silent. Jan 28 03:47:39 no I'm the one that keeps forgetting postinst I dunno why Jan 28 03:47:58 egaudet: skipping devmode would be nice tho Jan 28 03:48:19 it would be beyond nice Jan 28 03:49:16 it would be: "Plug pre in to PC, tap USB mode, double click preware installer" Jan 28 03:49:44 egaudet: that would LITERALLY be magic Jan 28 03:50:47 xcomp: ping Jan 28 03:54:38 zsoc: I'll get right on that :p Jan 28 03:54:44 the on-device preware manual I mean Jan 28 03:54:45 :D Jan 28 03:59:19 ird_: do it Jan 28 04:02:01 egaudet: we can do that kind of magic today Jan 28 04:02:13 egaudet: until type:game is broken Jan 28 04:03:45 hmm well then novacom it is Jan 28 04:04:01 egaudet: I'd actually like to do it Jan 28 04:04:21 I have to learn how to use cryptofs and lufs stuff etc Jan 28 04:05:39 but for only a month Jan 28 04:29:50 jack87: hows it goin Jan 28 04:32:49 in the future I think the security issue with plugins is how do you prevent native code from talking to lunaservice, even if not root? Jan 28 04:38:02 zsoc: pong Jan 28 04:39:33 destinal_home egaudet may I please ask some "I'm not a linux guy and I know I'm going to ask stupid questions" questions, please? Jan 28 04:40:00 rick-home: please do Jan 28 04:40:27 there are no born linux guys :P Jan 28 04:40:34 despite the common belief Jan 28 04:40:50 ok -- how "crypto" is cryptofs... how impossible is it to write to that from a USB mounted pre? Jan 28 04:41:18 rick-home: I believe cryptofs to be very secure against attackers that don't have the key Jan 28 04:41:39 ok. Does every Pre have a different key, or is there a "master" key. Jan 28 04:41:42 yeah you pretty much have to have the key Jan 28 04:41:45 each has their own Jan 28 04:41:57 and do we have a hint where that key is stored? Jan 28 04:41:59 but it's advertised via the usb information from the pre Jan 28 04:42:00 they wouldn't be smart to have a master key Jan 28 04:42:09 it's based on nduid Jan 28 04:42:45 destinal_home you're telling me that if I watch the stuff coming out of the USB connector on the pre, it TELLS me what the cryptofs key is? Jan 28 04:42:53 well it tells you device id Jan 28 04:43:02 and the key is device id plus a known static value or whatever Jan 28 04:43:12 ok Jan 28 04:43:33 So, -- speaking purely in theory then. and Ignoring the cost in dollars or man hours, just hypothetically Jan 28 04:43:37 this was not made to be resistant to attack really, this was done to prevent casual mounting by plugging in a pre Jan 28 04:43:41 you could write a program that said " Jan 28 04:43:58 which it does very well Jan 28 04:44:24 plug in your pre now" and it reads the device ID and then mounts the cryptofs and copies preware (or anything else) into the correct spot so that when the phone restarts, it's all there... Jan 28 04:44:32 exactly what I proposed earlier :) Jan 28 04:44:33 I think that if someone really wanted to figure out how to break in to the cryptofs they could probably do it in a day or 2.... but the real question is why Jan 28 04:44:34 yes Jan 28 04:45:02 So, we could do away with all the dev-mode crap Jan 28 04:45:03 I'd like to not use cryptofs - from just looking at how much CPU it uses Jan 28 04:45:12 when it is so easy to copy things in and out of the phone as is, what would be the need to break in to cryptofs Jan 28 04:45:17 and we could do away with all installing novacom drivers crap Jan 28 04:45:18 rick-home: unfortunately, we can only write to /media/cryptofs Jan 28 04:45:30 and we can't get root that way unless type:game gives it to us Jan 28 04:45:30 uh,.... Jan 28 04:45:37 so it would work for now Jan 28 04:45:58 now you lost me again. Jan 28 04:46:25 rick-home: so the cryptofs is just /media/cryptofs, and all we can write there is apps unless I'm missing something Jan 28 04:46:32 xcomp: i'm pretty much decided i don't think i can stomach learning the intricacies of xgl for no other reason than porting it, are you pretty certain you're going in that direction? Jan 28 04:46:44 rick-home: for now, apps can run binary code as root Jan 28 04:46:47 destinal_home but apps can include binary apps.... Jan 28 04:46:49 with type: game Jan 28 04:46:57 nodnod Jan 28 04:47:06 but palm has said that's not going to be true foreer Jan 28 04:47:07 forever Jan 28 04:47:12 ok Jan 28 04:47:25 but today? yeah, this idea would totally work Jan 28 04:47:29 zsoc: oh i have no intention of learning glx, just some opengl basics so that I have some idea what I'm doing Jan 28 04:47:30 right, they've said that the binary apps will be sandboxed. Jan 28 04:47:40 and we don't know yet what that means. Jan 28 04:47:49 sure, I say we go for it anyway Jan 28 04:47:59 worst that could happen is it'll only work for a while, like emailed ipk's Jan 28 04:48:00 but I suspect it means "read and write to and from your own directory and the following list of places we let you." Jan 28 04:48:04 destinal_home: but why? what is wrong with the way it is now? Jan 28 04:48:04 zsoc: I know enough of Xlib that the rest is easy for me to fathom Jan 28 04:48:30 cryptk|work NOW to install preware you have to open dev mode, and download HUNDREDS OF MEGABYTES OF CRAP Jan 28 04:48:36 unless you are talking about doing this for some reason other than just installing preware Jan 28 04:48:55 cryptk|work: this is to make the world of homebrew totally accessible to anyone with a pre Jan 28 04:48:56 xcomp: ah, well if you're already an xlib guy than you're way ahead of me :) i'm "ok" with gl/sdl, but anything x/xlib/xgl/x11 alludes me (past using it.. heh) Jan 28 04:48:58 no dev mode Jan 28 04:49:04 no doctor, no wosqi, etc etcv Jan 28 04:49:07 rick-home: no... NOW to install preware, you need to install novacom, not the whole hundreds of megabytes... Jan 28 04:49:26 cryptk|work: and still dev mode, which scares some people away Jan 28 04:49:30 you don't need the whole SDK, all you are using is novacom Jan 28 04:49:37 and takes time Jan 28 04:49:37 destinal_home: yes, and dev mode Jan 28 04:49:39 cryptk|work which you can get (legally) by download woqi and a doctor, or the sdk -- hundreds of megabytes of crap. Jan 28 04:49:42 and a reboot Jan 28 04:50:24 destinal_home: I think that the dev mode kind of works as an intelligence filter... if they are scared to put their phone in dev mode, then they are probably the kind of person that shouldn't be patching and whatnot as is... Jan 28 04:50:42 cryptk|work: in my perfect world nobody should be patching Jan 28 04:50:43 maybe not intelligence filter... more like a competence filter... Jan 28 04:50:48 zsoc: yeah I don't blame you... xlib is like banging your head against the wall sometimes Jan 28 04:50:54 patching is the most horrific thing Jan 28 04:50:59 no it isn't Jan 28 04:51:05 better that we rewrite apps Jan 28 04:51:05 THEMES are the most horrific thing. Jan 28 04:51:09 patching isn't horriffic at all Jan 28 04:51:09 oh ok true Jan 28 04:51:12 sometimes I think that keithp and his friends went out of their way to make the API ridiculously difficult Jan 28 04:51:21 rick-home: agreed, THEMES are very ugly in how they are done Jan 28 04:51:24 cryptk|work: patching is horrific Jan 28 04:51:32 it's a total violation of the integrity of the system Jan 28 04:51:43 it breaks in bad horrible ways Jan 28 04:51:45 destinal_home if we had a way to re-write apps instead, I'd be all for it. Jan 28 04:51:47 destinal_home: maybe for you patching is horriffic, but for me, I realize that no one device is going to be perfect for everyone Jan 28 04:51:58 cryptk|work no no you misunderstand Jan 28 04:52:06 it's not MODDING THE OS that he's complaining about Jan 28 04:52:07 cryptk|work: it's the worst thing except for anything else we have Jan 28 04:52:10 do explain please Jan 28 04:52:10 which is nothing Jan 28 04:52:12 it's doing VIA PATCH. Jan 28 04:52:39 If we were RE-WRITING the email app, if we installed "MODIFIED EMAIL" Jan 28 04:52:49 if we were re-writing the Launcher Jan 28 04:52:52 but we're not. Jan 28 04:52:53 Im totally ok with patching. Jan 28 04:53:04 I believe preware would not be on 50% of the devices it is without patches. Jan 28 04:53:08 we're using PATCH to modify the code. Bad idea. but the best one we had. Jan 28 04:53:08 yeah, I'm cool with patching too.... Jan 28 04:53:11 "How did you get your launcher to look like that" Jan 28 04:53:23 oh, THAT part I agree with. Jan 28 04:53:25 I'm not arguing that we don't patch if the alternative is we don't ever make certain functionality available Jan 28 04:53:28 zsoc: I get that question alot Jan 28 04:53:35 I'm just saying patching is horrible Jan 28 04:53:37 rick-home: ok, i'm going to rephrase, patching is _horrific_, but thanks to the genius of egaudet, we manage it in a very VERY goog way. Jan 28 04:53:51 When I went into the sprint store to trade my phone with the broken headset plug, the tech rep recognized my name as a webos-internals team member.... Jan 28 04:53:53 s/goog/good/ haha, freudian? hmmm Jan 28 04:53:56 zsoc: it's now a lesser evi.l Jan 28 04:53:57 evil Jan 28 04:54:00 but it is NOT GOOD Jan 28 04:54:05 I always have people ask me "how did you get your phone to do *INSERT RANDOM THING HERE*" Jan 28 04:54:06 and they all came around and showed me the various mods they had done to their phone. Jan 28 04:54:08 rick-home: now THAT's really really cool :> Jan 28 04:54:17 and I tell them "Install whatever patch from preware" Jan 28 04:54:29 but I see what you mean that re-writing the app would be safer Jan 28 04:54:30 there was not one employee in that store with a stock pre. Jan 28 04:54:46 but why re write it when I want 99% the same code.... except for theese few lines... Jan 28 04:54:58 (there were two guys with non-pre phones... they were sad by the time I left. ) Jan 28 04:55:22 ((I tried to get a free touchstone out of the fan-boys, but failed. Jan 28 04:55:30 cryptk|work: the point is, it's bad, it's ugly, and we manage the badness and ugliness and keep it from hurting as much as possible Jan 28 04:55:38 but nothing in the homebrew community causes as much grief Jan 28 04:55:59 destinal: themes are the real evil imo. now with epr and aupt, patches are super managed imo. Jan 28 04:56:01 is it worth the pain? Jan 28 04:56:04 yeah, for now Jan 28 04:56:09 until we can do something better Jan 28 04:56:25 destinal_home: sometimes to get something tweaked exacctly how I like it, I have to be wiling to break it first Jan 28 04:56:25 but we need a "How to install and manage themes API" Jan 28 04:56:34 cryptk|work: I'm not saying don't tweak it Jan 28 04:56:35 which freaking F-ing SHOULD HAVE COME FROM PALM..... Jan 28 04:56:35 customizing anything is like that Jan 28 04:56:45 cryptk|work: I'm not even saying don't modify stock apps. but there has to be a better way Jan 28 04:57:04 ideally we come up with better apps ourselves Jan 28 04:57:14 I do alot of custom car work... rarely have I done body work on a car without using a hammer.... beating on a car with a hammer is typically a bad thing... but it gets me waht I want Jan 28 04:57:17 which include all the desired functionality Jan 28 04:57:24 but if not, we need to figure out runtime patching Jan 28 04:57:36 oooooohhhhhh noooooooooo Jan 28 04:57:47 We are _not_ going to start talking about the duck thing again. Jan 28 04:57:51 hehe Jan 28 04:57:52 No no no no no not tonight Jan 28 04:57:59 well at any rate, there should be a better way Jan 28 04:58:04 that can easily be turned off Jan 28 04:58:04 thank you Jan 28 04:58:06 destinal_home: but there is something to be said for simplicity also... re-writing a launcher (to go back to your example) would be a "cleaner" way, but not necessarially better Jan 28 04:58:20 that doesn't conflict and depend and break Jan 28 04:58:33 otoh, someone needs to RE-WRITE the calendar app Jan 28 04:58:38 just not me Jan 28 04:58:57 rick-home: duck... thing? Jan 28 04:58:59 cryptk|work: on other devices people HAVE come up with better versions and just replaced stock things Jan 28 04:59:10 and if it's all around better, you won't mind Jan 28 04:59:12 DO NOT ASK la la la la la la --- I didn't hear you.... Jan 28 04:59:16 I don't want a "replacement better app that comes with this functionality that can optionally be turned off" if it means I have to sift through 10-15 screens of options pages... Jan 28 04:59:44 destinal_home: Oh, I know they have, I used to have a Motorola Q (ran WinMo) and I replaces the browser with Opera Mini Jan 28 04:59:47 cryptk|work: you already have to sift through 10-15 pages of patches Jan 28 04:59:52 what's the difference? Jan 28 04:59:54 there are some instances where that would be a great option Jan 28 05:00:20 make it just as easy and just as one time as that Jan 28 05:01:10 things like a better browser, better email, better calendar.... sure, replace the app Jan 28 05:01:13 rick-home: anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with the cryptofs thing you said and have proposed it before Jan 28 05:01:20 kk Jan 28 05:01:26 we just need to figure out linking cryptofs into our own binary installer Jan 28 05:01:28 how much would would it be? Jan 28 05:01:41 the code is obviously already there Jan 28 05:02:19 destinal, what are you agreeing with? Jan 28 05:02:31 FuMan: installing preware without dev mode Jan 28 05:02:38 over USB drive mode Jan 28 05:02:47 whats URL for the palm catalog stats page that Rod setup? Jan 28 05:03:00 well really it's installing a preware installer 'game' over USB drive mode Jan 28 05:03:06 first we need to find out if the cryptofs can even be seen over the USB cable at all... Jan 28 05:03:17 it can Jan 28 05:03:19 cryptk|work: it's already been mounted over usb Jan 28 05:03:21 or is there some other code preventing it Jan 28 05:03:25 nope Jan 28 05:03:27 just by someone with a linux host Jan 28 05:03:31 destinal_home: WHAAA! when? Jan 28 05:03:42 oh, more than a week ago. Jan 28 05:03:50 wow... I totally missed that one Jan 28 05:05:36 so the next step which totally surpasses my experience is linking the LUFS library thing that is cryptofs into a binary instead of a kernel Jan 28 05:07:39 outside the scope of my brain Jan 28 05:08:14 I can fit it in my brain but need to learn a lot Jan 28 05:09:06 or well, some Jan 28 05:11:43 destinal_home: same here... I may read on it a bit once I finish my work for the njight Jan 28 05:21:28 is mounting webos cryptofs over usb documented anywhere ? Jan 28 05:32:35 not that I know of Jan 28 05:37:35 do we know how to send / receive sms ? Jan 28 05:37:46 as in write an app to do it Jan 28 05:51:13 Woah this is weird, my Pre thinks it's charging even though it's not connected to anything. I've already luna restart and it still says it's charging Jan 28 05:51:58 gollyzila: where is it saying that it is charging at? Jan 28 05:53:17 When I restarted it vibrated and showed the notification that it was charging. Also, I have the Show Battery as Percent patch and it is blue, indicating it is charging. Jan 28 05:54:56 weird... Jan 28 05:55:05 have you tried plugging it in and un plugging it? Jan 28 05:55:34 take out the battery. Jan 28 05:55:49 Not yet. I'm away from the charger right now. But I'll be sure to try that...... Jan 28 05:56:07 I guess I'll take out the battery then. Jan 28 05:59:32 btw, I taught infobot something new last night... Jan 28 05:59:35 ~rooting Jan 28 05:59:36 i guess rooting is something that does not apply to Palm WebOS devices... it comes from Palm with a root account already created. Please read this post for more details http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/193679-accessing-linux-rooting-your-pre.html Jan 28 06:02:38 Yup, a battery pull did the trick Jan 28 06:02:59 good stuff Jan 28 06:03:10 I have never seen that one before Jan 28 06:03:16 glad xcomp knew about it, lol Jan 28 06:03:49 Yeah. If only a battery pull solved everything Jan 28 06:04:02 haha Jan 28 06:04:10 you having other issues? Jan 28 06:04:33 Nope, but I have another question. Will forum patches installed through WOSQI have AUPT built-in? Jan 28 06:04:43 gollyzila: do you live in a hot and humid climate? Jan 28 06:04:50 after WOSQI 3.0 comes out Jan 28 06:05:10 lemme ask ya'll somethin'... does AUPT really expect me to select OK to updating each of and every one of these 52 patches?? Jan 28 06:05:12 JayCanuck has already stated that 3.0 will be AUPT compatible Jan 28 06:05:21 Zsoc: nope, Southern California Jan 28 06:05:25 nope, not after the first time Jan 28 06:05:30 grndslm: no, you have the wrong version of ipkgservice Jan 28 06:05:35 there is new "code signing" built in now Jan 28 06:05:39 k... Jan 28 06:05:40 grndslm: new version is digitally signed, ie:, doesn't ask you Jan 28 06:05:47 well, i didn't see a preware or pms to update... Jan 28 06:05:59 so figured AUPT had already been built in, but didn't understand how Jan 28 06:06:01 grndslm: you may have had an alpha version installed via bootstrap Jan 28 06:06:15 So WOSQI 3.0 signs the forum patches? Jan 28 06:06:21 grndslm: therefore the versioning is broke, rerunning bootstrap with some yesses should fix that Jan 28 06:06:23 zsoc: i actually selected View for the first time, and then hit Cancel and it just froze Jan 28 06:06:31 View script or whatever Jan 28 06:06:40 zsoc: that may be my issue too then, egaudet told me it was because I didn't have signed versions of the patches installed and that after this one time it would be ok Jan 28 06:06:53 then i had to restart preware... and now it's asking me to view each and every script Jan 28 06:06:59 grndslm: i standby my suggestion to rerun the bootstrap :) the fixed other similar problems i saw today Jan 28 06:07:03 the APT removal will prompt Jan 28 06:07:06 the AUPT install won't Jan 28 06:07:09 coolt Jan 28 06:07:12 *cool Jan 28 06:07:25 gollyzila: no, WOSQI doed not sign the patches, but it is compatible with AUTP Jan 28 06:07:32 egaudet: i was getting no prompts on either? Jan 28 06:07:41 egaudet: er, oh, wait, nevermind Jan 28 06:07:42 zsoc, I do not believe you Jan 28 06:07:54 egaudet: well aupt 'install' includes an apt removal? no? ;) Jan 28 06:08:00 no Jan 28 06:08:12 the update is APT remove -> AUPT install Jan 28 06:08:21 .... right Jan 28 06:08:27 but i updated with no notifications Jan 28 06:08:39 and the view script really does need landscape mode, dudes... just scroll up to see the header (similar to location bar in webOS browser)... and OK/Cancel buttons can come AFTER the end of the script Jan 28 06:08:48 just sayin'.. :P Jan 28 06:09:14 ahh, so egaudet what you said to me before was correct then right, I was having to OK each one because they were being removed with APT not AUPT Jan 28 06:09:23 but in the future I won't be prompted at all Jan 28 06:10:04 right Jan 28 06:11:29 good, that is what I said in my mass text to all of the pre's that I "manage" Jan 28 06:12:06 I pretty much asked all of them to be sure they update their ipkgservice, preware and then all of their patches before the next WebOS update comes out Jan 28 06:12:19 and then to NOT uninstall patches for the next update Jan 28 06:12:36 one question though egaudet, themes still should be removed before an OTA update right? Jan 28 06:12:49 cryptk|work: themes should not be used :p Jan 28 06:12:53 * zsoc manages too many pres Jan 28 06:13:21 anything that modifies system files should be removed... except for thigns using AUPT Jan 28 06:13:31 zsoc: I know, but I have lots of people that rely on me to keep their pre's working (I.E. Keep them from breaking their pre's) and they like themes Jan 28 06:13:33 so why did all my patches need to be removed and then replaced if this has nothing to do with AUPT?? Jan 28 06:13:44 *ALL my patches Jan 28 06:13:47 who said it doesn't have to do with AUPT Jan 28 06:13:54 egaudet did Jan 28 06:14:05 no he didn'e Jan 28 06:14:11 s/didn'e/didn't/ Jan 28 06:14:11 cryptk|work meant: no he didn't Jan 28 06:14:25 the APT removal will prompt Jan 28 06:14:25 the AUPT install won't Jan 28 06:14:44 you are removing the APT versions of the patches and installing the AUPT versions Jan 28 06:14:49 it's prompting me every for every single removal and replacement Jan 28 06:14:53 you are upgrading your patches to AUPT Jan 28 06:15:01 ahh... AUPT is built into the patches Jan 28 06:15:09 yes, because the removal scripts in those patches is using the now outdated APT tech Jan 28 06:15:11 yes Jan 28 06:15:12 makes sense Jan 28 06:15:20 it is built into the scripts that install and remove them Jan 28 06:15:31 so you are upgrading your patches to AUPT Jan 28 06:15:48 gotcha Jan 28 06:15:53 you are being prompted for the outdated APT removal scripts... you are NOT being prompted for the new tech AUPT installs Jan 28 06:15:58 hence only one prompt per patch Jan 28 06:16:33 oh shit, i thought my phone just died during this massive update Jan 28 06:16:46 took a few seconds longer to turn on :x Jan 28 06:16:47 just lag a little? Jan 28 06:16:50 yup Jan 28 06:16:51 ahh Jan 28 06:17:10 yeah, I think PuffTheMagic was saying something about AUPT being a little slower than APT Jan 28 06:17:23 somewhere around 30 seconds per patch Jan 28 06:17:36 versus the 20ish of APT Jan 28 06:17:37 a little hehe Jan 28 06:17:53 it can't be much slower than waiting on me to update each of these 50-whatever patches Jan 28 06:18:08 haha Jan 28 06:18:17 yeah i updated all my preware stuff today, but right now the official palm Updates app says there's updates available.. but i dont see any.. is this normal? Jan 28 06:18:24 once you get them updated this time, you should be able to just click "update all" and be done with it Jan 28 06:18:41 rwong: yes, mine has been doing that since the last OTA Jan 28 06:18:49 ah okay Jan 28 06:18:54 saying I have apps with updates, then it forwards to the app catalog and there are no updates Jan 28 06:19:01 alot of people are getting that Jan 28 06:19:19 what about the App Catalog showing Preware apps and saying stuff is "not a webOS application" for things like PDF View? Jan 28 06:19:37 IIRC pdfview came with the phone and has nothing to do with preware :( Jan 28 06:19:57 that is a side effect of the app catalog listing all apps located in cryptofs Jan 28 06:20:05 ah okay Jan 28 06:20:27 if you install a PDF viewer patch then it changes the md5 of the app... that may be causing the app catalog to not recognize it as a valid webos app... Jan 28 06:20:32 sigh, one of these days i'll know all this stuff and be the one telling another n00b :) Jan 28 06:20:33 but I'm not completely certain on that one Jan 28 06:20:40 cryptk|work: not me Jan 28 06:20:55 PuffTheMagic: it wasn't you saying that AUPT go's a little slower Jan 28 06:21:06 and that you would start the update and watch a football game? Jan 28 06:21:09 idk what either are Jan 28 06:21:10 was it dBsooner then? Jan 28 06:21:21 must have been dBsooner then... Jan 28 06:21:22 i dont waatch footbal Jan 28 06:21:24 thought it was you... Jan 28 06:21:25 lol Jan 28 06:21:31 nope Jan 28 06:21:34 puff wears tight jeans and eats tuna Jan 28 06:21:52 lol tight jeans Jan 28 06:21:56 not Jan 28 06:22:14 btw, I taught infobot about rooting the pre last night... Jan 28 06:22:27 I got tired of people saying "I jailbroke my pre" or "I rooted my pre" Jan 28 06:22:30 ~rooting Jan 28 06:22:31 i guess rooting is something that does not apply to Palm WebOS devices... it comes from Palm with a root account already created. Please read this post for more details http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/193679-accessing-linux-rooting-your-pre.html Jan 28 06:23:00 ~beer Jan 28 06:23:01 * infobot has disconnected (Read error: 99 (Connection reset by beer)) Jan 28 06:23:06 lol Jan 28 06:23:25 I wasn't expecting that Jan 28 06:23:36 it doesn't really disconnect Jan 28 06:23:39 it just says it does Jan 28 06:23:45 it is "going to get a beer" Jan 28 06:23:51 heh Jan 28 06:23:55 left for reason beer Jan 28 06:24:06 * cryptk|work has disconnected (Read error: 99 (Connection reset by beer)) Jan 28 06:24:08 like that Jan 28 06:24:53 Ping gollyzila Jan 28 06:25:09 Whois gollyzila Jan 28 06:25:17 good night Jan 28 06:25:22 Hmmmm maybe I got the codes wrong Jan 28 06:26:02 gollyzila2: try putting a / in front of those Jan 28 06:27:24 Well I'm gollyzila aswell. I put terminus in card view, crash, logged back in to WIRC but gollyzila was still logged in, so I made gollyzila2. How should I fix this? Jan 28 06:27:43 is the nick gollyzilla registered with nickserv? Jan 28 06:28:07 Uhhhh I'm not sure. Probably not. Jan 28 06:28:13 you would know Jan 28 06:28:22 your solution is to wait for it to time out Jan 28 06:28:23 But I can do that now Jan 28 06:28:49 yep, register the nick with nickserv, then in the future you can do /msg nickserv GHOST [password] Jan 28 06:28:55 and that will kick off the old one Jan 28 06:29:43 Oh okay. The nickserve link sends me to an FAQ. Jan 28 06:30:01 yep, and that FAQ explains how to do it Jan 28 06:30:38 and you can have multiple nicks registered to the same account Jan 28 06:31:03 I have cryptk, cryptk|work, cryptk|home, cryptk|wirc all registerd under cryptk Jan 28 06:31:12 so no matter which one I am using I am registered Jan 28 06:42:15 And I can register it striaght from here and no one will see the info I type? Jan 28 06:43:13 as long as it is all done with /msg then nope Jan 28 06:43:24 or you can type it in the server status window Jan 28 06:43:46 How do I register the name gollyzila when I'm using gollyzila2? Jan 28 06:44:09 what's the cup for ipad , Jan 28 06:44:15 cpu Jan 28 06:44:24 were you logged on to gollyzila from wirc or what? Jan 28 06:44:32 ameng: how u been? Jan 28 06:44:38 Yes, from WIRC Jan 28 06:44:42 you need to change your nick to gollyzila first Jan 28 06:44:52 And then Terminus crashed the phone Jan 28 06:44:52 restart your phone real fast, that should get it to disconenct Jan 28 06:45:01 Okee dokee Jan 28 06:45:02 gollyzila2: u want to group it Jan 28 06:45:05 not register it Jan 28 06:45:08 it crashed luna, but the wirc service is still going Jan 28 06:45:10 only register 1 nick Jan 28 06:45:16 he doesn't have gollyzila registered yet Jan 28 06:45:18 then group all your alts to the main nick Jan 28 06:45:24 That's my plan Jan 28 06:45:26 PuffTheMagic: fine Jan 28 06:45:27 he is trying to register gollyzila Jan 28 06:45:37 wel wait Jan 28 06:45:59 but he can't change his name to it cause his luna died and the wirc service is still running connected as golylzila Jan 28 06:46:37 so this should make it time out... I guess we could have had him kill the service in terminal Jan 28 06:46:43 or restart java Jan 28 06:46:53 and it would have had the same effect Jan 28 06:46:58 but this is easier, lol Jan 28 06:52:23 hrm... so that didn't work Jan 28 06:52:28 PuffTheMagic: what was your idea? Jan 28 06:52:39 his WIRC is still showing as in here... just wait for timeout? Jan 28 06:53:22 he is conencted as gollyzila over his EVDO connection and gollyzilla2 over WiFi Jan 28 06:54:07 gollyzila2: try setting your WIRC to connect using EVDO and then connect to IRC, see if that kicks it off... Jan 28 06:54:24 (although that will probably just sign you in as gollyzila_) Jan 28 06:54:44 you are probably just going to have to wait for it to timeout on the server now, since there is no way that you are actually connected from Wirc Jan 28 07:07:43 im sure airplane mode would make the service disconnect if it still was Jan 28 07:21:59 anyone using orb on there phone? Jan 28 07:29:52 im getting install failed on twee :( Jan 28 07:29:58 and i paid for it Jan 28 07:30:23 oil: that is the thing... he rebooted the phone... that should disconenct it... Jan 28 07:30:37 and... lunch time Jan 28 07:30:37 evening all Jan 28 07:30:55 lol Jan 28 07:31:01 cryptk|work : have you tried orb streaming to your pre?????? Jan 28 07:32:04 well if u havent everyone should it make ur 8 Gb pre very better Jan 28 07:32:13 pzz got class in a couple hours Jan 28 07:32:41 what about if you have the pre plus lol Jan 28 07:33:17 would it be possible for me to add all 50+ of my favorite patches into one "Super Duper Megamix Patch"?? Jan 28 07:33:37 ... and have it actually accepted by webos-internals?? Jan 28 07:34:01 would just throw AUPT out the window :P Jan 28 07:34:01 still good i just meant for the ones that have only 8 gig to work with check it out : http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=1709254 Jan 28 07:34:18 grndslm : why would u need that u got AUPT now Jan 28 07:34:34 i haven't thought that far yet Jan 28 07:34:37 ok im out pzzzzzzzz Jan 28 07:35:06 gotta catch some ZZZZsssss Jan 28 07:35:43 real reason is so that when somebody asks me which patches i have... i just say, "just this one" ... and it takes them no time to install "them all" Jan 28 07:35:59 not so much for me... but for those i recommend webOS phones to Jan 28 07:42:05 sockstat Jan 28 07:48:37 Grrrrr im still logged in as gollyzila2 even though i deleted that nick from WIRC Jan 28 07:50:28 hello Jan 28 07:51:05 where can i download preware? Jan 28 07:51:48 http://tinyurl.com/ye7pbhm Jan 28 07:52:26 Yessss Jan 28 07:54:28 When registering my nick here on the irc, do i need to put <>around my password and email? Jan 28 07:54:43 dont think so Jan 28 07:56:15 it might add those to your pass if you did that Jan 28 07:57:10 I'm registered!! Wooh! Jan 28 08:06:52 grndslm: there are many reasons to not make one "Ultra Patch" Jan 28 08:07:39 mostly just reasons for me to not want to maintain an Ultra Patch... Jan 28 08:07:46 but what if people LOVED it? <3 Jan 28 08:08:28 yea, i think i'll pass on that idea Jan 28 08:10:57 well, aside from the fact that AUPT makes that idea totally obsolete Jan 28 08:11:09 it would break in multiple areas with every OTA Jan 28 08:11:21 s/OTA/OTA update/ Jan 28 08:11:21 cryptk|work meant: it would break in multiple areas with every OTA update Jan 28 08:11:47 and it would be against the whole idea of patching anyway Jan 28 08:11:52 it would limit customization Jan 28 08:12:16 people who installed one ultra patch would get what that patch has, what if they don't want some of the things you want Jan 28 08:12:32 the whole idea behind patching the phone it to make it what YOU want, not what someone else says you want Jan 28 08:13:09 right... the limiting customization was where i ended the thought process Jan 28 08:13:42 yep Jan 28 08:14:01 that and the whole AUPT makes it toally un-necessary thing, lol Jan 28 08:22:50 cryptk: well, i've got like 50+ patches... and telling people who have JUST installed preware to download this one, single patch to get to where i'm at is a pretty decent idea Jan 28 08:23:17 ... perhaps some kinda Ultra Patch that only initially installs my 50+ patches Jan 28 08:23:26 and then lets AUPT take it from there Jan 28 08:24:28 is that possible... to create a "patch" that is merely a huge list of links to other patches? Jan 28 08:36:25 I would like something like the named pages in launcher to work with the wrap pages (which disables animation as a nice feature) animation with the named pages is just too much Jan 28 08:43:55 hmagoo: I use the named pages in launcher patch with the enable add/remove launcher pages patch Jan 28 08:44:11 so I added a fourth page Jan 28 08:44:22 named them 'common' 'games' 'apps' 'system' Jan 28 08:44:40 yeah I just don't want the animations when the page turns Jan 28 08:44:41 I also use it with jason's 'remove quick launch bar in launcher' patch Jan 28 08:44:53 that last one isn't in preware though Jan 28 08:45:03 I can't get the auto-popup launcher patch to work, just does nothing Jan 28 08:45:06 you don't want the page slide animation? Jan 28 08:45:22 the one that opens the launcher when you unlock the phone? Jan 28 08:45:26 no I don't it is too much when going to different pages Jan 28 08:45:35 yeah does nothing for me Jan 28 08:45:56 yeah, I don't use that patch so i can't help ya Jan 28 08:49:30 hi Jan 28 08:49:56 can we connect to webOS SQL from external client ? any one Jan 28 08:50:14 hrm... Jan 28 08:50:18 that is a good question Jan 28 08:50:32 it depends on if the sql in the phone allows external connections Jan 28 08:50:38 it may take some tweaking to enable it Jan 28 08:51:03 you could copy the database out of the phone, make your modifications and then merge them in Jan 28 08:51:22 i'm working on emulator, so can we get to connect? does any configuration required ? Jan 28 08:52:15 any port on which we can connect? like how we SSH using 5522 Jan 28 08:55:00 you would have to look at the configuration of the sql server on the phone Jan 28 08:55:14 may I ask why you are trying to do this? Jan 28 08:55:23 not saying not to, I am jsut curious Jan 28 09:05:39 morning Jan 28 09:05:57 mornin Jan 28 09:07:17 my ssh has gone balls up again so if anyone can help me highlight me pls Jan 28 09:17:18 is it possible to check the sql structure and data on webos of my app ? Jan 28 09:26:39 any one? help me on how to connect to database of an app/palmpre? Jan 28 09:28:45 is there a proper xmpp client out for webos yet? Jan 28 09:46:25 ive lost permissions to delete and write to pre with ssh it was fine until i rebooted, all i can do is pull files out Jan 28 09:46:38 internet gives me a sude command but it says not found when i try it Jan 28 09:48:10 youRe in read only Jan 28 09:48:20 "mount -o remount,rw /" Jan 28 09:48:37 shoudl do the trick ! ut be carefull .. easy to screw something ;) Jan 28 09:51:54 ty trying... Jan 28 09:52:15 i love you. Jan 28 09:54:05 to put it back like it should Jan 28 09:54:14 it "mount -o remount,ro /" Jan 28 09:54:24 or just log out shoud do the same Jan 28 09:54:32 is there somewhere a nice tutorial how to make nice packages with ipkg+gentoo? Jan 28 09:55:09 anyone know where the launcher icon is situated on palm pre? Jan 28 10:15:44 iSmite: as in where it is on the screen or where it is on the filesystem? Jan 28 10:16:03 are you trying to delete the launcher icon? Jan 28 10:17:13 its ok ive got it. no im theming it Jan 28 10:19:41 hi guys, can any one help on this ... how to check the structure and data of a app? Jan 28 10:19:59 i need to connect to databse of my app ... any one ? Jan 28 10:33:15 what do you mean by check the structure and data of an app Jan 28 10:33:22 like where is it stored on the phone? Jan 28 10:34:00 no ... on the emulator Jan 28 10:34:25 ok, emulator Jan 28 10:34:33 it uses sqlite for the databases, i dont know how you run a check on that. Jan 28 10:34:34 do you need to know where the app is stored on the emulator? Jan 28 10:35:29 should be the same location as on the phone Jan 28 10:35:49 hence why it is called an emulator... it is the same in every way possible Jan 28 10:36:09 can u tell me location where apps are stored ? Jan 28 10:36:35 i have logged-in to emulator through SSH Jan 28 10:37:40 one sec Jan 28 10:37:45 /media/cryptofs Jan 28 10:37:50 they are all stored in there Jan 28 10:38:30 /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications/ Jan 28 10:39:56 yea .. i can see my app ...but i can only c the code which i have written ... Jan 28 10:40:16 can we locate corresponding databse it uses for my app ? Jan 28 10:41:07 oh, I have no clue Jan 28 10:41:49 Does anyone know if some of the Preware feeds are down? 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Thanks Jan 28 10:47:20 in the future, just a java restart will prolly do it Jan 28 10:47:33 biab Jan 28 10:47:36 Ok...will try that next time. Jan 28 10:58:01 back Jan 28 10:59:49 "/IGNORE * CTCPS" is helping if you are using irssi Jan 28 11:02:32 airmack: I only saw the one bunch of them Jan 28 11:05:35 btw how do i access the palm pre without using the sdk? Jan 28 11:05:50 is there somwhere a guide for that? Jan 28 11:07:29 cryptk : what u think is it possiblt to get sql structure? Jan 28 11:10:41 raghuk: I am sure it would be possible, you may have to adjust some configurations or something, but I don't know much about that Jan 28 11:10:52 airmack: you can install SSH Jan 28 11:11:06 and yes, there is a guide for that on the wiki Jan 28 11:12:41 check out the OpenSSH package in preware Jan 28 11:13:28 you need to use whatever tools you use to work with sqlite databases I would guess Jan 28 11:14:22 unless they use some kind of encryption, but from what I saw they are just CSV files or some other plaintext Jan 28 11:14:53 http://www.weboshelp.net/getting-started-with-webos/160-webos-sql-tutorial Jan 28 11:15:51 google knows all Jan 28 11:15:52 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Mojo_Storage_Database Jan 28 11:16:36 ive run the sqlite command before on one of the db3 files and you can show the tables and export them Jan 28 11:28:19 hmm i wanted to try it out without installing any preware, but i am going to check it out, thanks cryptk|work Jan 28 11:28:37 well, you really only need novacom Jan 28 11:28:49 which you can get from either the doctor or from the SDK Jan 28 11:29:29 if you have quick install, throw the right doctor file in with it... then use QI to install novacom Jan 28 11:29:33 I think it is in the tools menu Jan 28 12:13:01 that was hard work http://img.skitch.com/20100128-f9jtxn15i73i67pyesupifuc1u.png Jan 28 12:13:05 themed. Jan 28 12:30:24 iDon't get why people do those kind of themes Jan 28 12:53:59 Try to get "helloworld" natively running on my palm pre. However, exec format is not recognized: execve("/bin/a.out", ["/bin/a.out"], [/* 11 vars */]) = -1 ENOEXEC (Exec format error) Jan 28 12:54:28 used gcc -static -march=armv7a Jan 28 12:55:21 "file hello": ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, not stripped Jan 28 12:55:52 yes, exec bit is set. any hints? Jan 28 13:08:57 hik: are you building it with the sb2 setup? Jan 28 13:10:22 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_Internals_PDK Jan 28 13:10:31 uses scratchbox2 for cross compilation Jan 28 13:17:08 exactly, i build the toolchain described on the webos-internals site Jan 28 13:19:23 so the executable is building but it won't run? Jan 28 13:21:20 yes, it doesn't in the palm pre emulator , it is excutable in the sb2-shell Jan 28 13:21:46 it isn't executable in the palm emulator Jan 28 13:23:31 on the pre I'm getting the error messagee described above Jan 28 13:34:00 I have a quick question does the AUPT work for the themes as well? Jan 28 14:15:58 for about a week now (not an exact timeframe) -- my battery life has started to suck royally. I've ssh'd into my pre a few times and the load (reported by uptime) is somewhere between 7-10. Usually 'java' is sitting at the top of the 'top' stack. Jan 28 14:17:24 If I reboot the load is normal for a while (several hours at least -- longer than my attention span's ability to ssh into my pre and check the system load) ... but by the next morning (sorry for the imprecise timing), the system load is back up and I'm burning through my battery. Jan 28 14:20:07 I'm going to install a quick job that will log the output of 'uptime' to a file every minute. Jan 28 14:22:09 nt4cats, that may help to pinpoint when load if taking place, but that wont show you "what" Jan 28 14:22:45 insearchof: agreed, but if i can figure out a pattern I know better times to monitor for the 'what' Jan 28 14:23:02 good point Jan 28 14:23:20 insearchof: I can also just wake up every minute and check the load, and if it is over 4 dump process, memory, and i/o information out ... Jan 28 14:24:16 indeed that will work Jan 28 14:27:23 a 'system load' profile throughout a day can also help me correlate load to /var/log/messages events, etc. Jan 28 14:30:11 hik: : try without march Jan 28 14:30:50 oh wait Jan 28 14:31:13 hik: did you say in the EMULATOR? Jan 28 14:31:56 that's an x86 box Jan 28 14:32:53 so you don't want to use sb2 Jan 28 14:36:22 for pre try without march and see what happens Jan 28 14:37:43 Hi there, I work for ImgTec, who do the graphics hardware in the OMAP inside the Pre. Are there any Palm dudes around I can chat with about porting our demos to the PDK? Jan 28 14:39:09 oh neat Jan 28 14:39:32 rys, i'm not a palm guy - but they're west coast so i don't expect them to be up any time soon Jan 28 14:39:58 morning ya'll Jan 28 14:40:07 rys, chuqui comes in pretty often and he'd probably be the main guy to contact Jan 28 14:40:14 mernin' Jan 28 14:41:32 bpadalino|work: cheers, I'll hang around then :) Jan 28 14:41:44 rys, hows life at imgtec and what do you do there ? Jan 28 14:42:29 I'm a devtech engineer there, so I support the SDK and tools and things, and help customers and end users using the silicon Jan 28 14:43:16 ah very nice .. have you seen our attempts at getting to the gpu and opengl demos ? Jan 28 14:43:36 We've kept an eye on things, yeah :) Jan 28 14:44:26 ah, very nice .. so you're aware it all just ends up going through SDL and whatnot ? Jan 28 14:46:09 rys: this is the powervr? I don't believe the PDK provides direct access to it, just opengl-es libs Jan 28 14:46:29 I've seem the demo from a few weeks back, and I've followed the discussion about Quake Jan 28 14:46:58 destinal: yeah, and that's why we want to chat to Palm, to see what the PDK lets us do Jan 28 14:47:14 +destinal: ok, on the pre it works, i thought it would be executable on the pre emulator too Jan 28 14:47:18 cool Jan 28 14:47:41 hik: emulator is more a simulator Jan 28 14:47:46 rys, so do you help out TI when making their linux drivers, or do you supply the drivers to TI ? Jan 28 14:48:19 Both Jan 28 14:49:09 The get driver drops from us, which they use to support the device. They'll usually do some tuning or enable/disable extensions or various other internals, etc Jan 28 14:49:44 ah gotcha Jan 28 14:49:46 very neat Jan 28 14:50:35 rys: i'm interested as well, even if palm doesn't enable direct access officially it would be cool to enable homebrew development around it Jan 28 14:51:03 It looks like almost everything's there, other than direct access to the framebuffer Jan 28 14:52:38 rys: is the code for these demos publicly available? Jan 28 14:53:03 Sadly no Jan 28 14:54:10 rys, how big of a company is imgtec ? Jan 28 14:55:55 In terms of what? Headcount? Financials? Jan 28 14:56:46 headcount/engineering power i suppose ? Jan 28 14:57:08 morning Jan 28 14:57:18 rwhitby: morning Jan 28 14:57:36 rwhitby: rys is here from imgtec .. the guys who make the gpu in the omap Jan 28 14:57:50 We're ~500 people big, and the PowerVR group is around 100-150 engineers, give or take Jan 28 14:58:12 very nice Jan 28 14:58:27 Hardware + software Jan 28 15:06:25 rys: welcome Jan 28 15:06:59 Hello :) Jan 28 15:07:22 rys: we'd love to have some demos ported Jan 28 15:08:24 rys: please see /msg regarding contact at Palm for PDK Jan 28 15:11:34 destinal: how's things? I've seen all the AUPT traffic, anything else interesting happening? Jan 28 15:11:47 rys: awesome. I work at TI, and I really wish I worked on OMAP. Everyday I see the da vinci guys playing with their gadgets and I get insanely jealous :) Jan 28 15:12:10 rwhitby: it's pretty quiet mostly Jan 28 15:12:10 hehe Jan 28 15:19:06 rwhitby: the AUPT traffic was nic eeh? Jan 28 15:19:25 rwhitby: Have the donations picked up? I have been reading a lot of posts and tweets about people donating. :D Jan 28 15:20:01 There has definitely been an increase since AUPT was released. Jan 28 15:22:48 * xcomp is having fun with the evas gl engine Jan 28 15:24:12 rwhitby: Awesome! Jan 28 15:24:52 We now have enough for the new server. I've just authorised Tom to spend the money to buy the parts and have them shipped to OSUOSL. Jan 28 15:25:49 Awesome! Jan 28 15:25:56 What are the specs going to be? Jan 28 15:26:06 rwhitby: excellent Jan 28 15:26:28 * dBsooner is gitty because new server is going to be bad arse. Jan 28 15:29:15 it's a shared machine (nslu2-linux.org, openembedded.org, nas-central.org, foonas.org, openwiz.org), but it will have 2 quad core processors and 32GB of RAM and 4TB of raid5 disk Jan 28 15:30:00 the box is expandable to 12 cores, 128GB RAM, 14TB disk. Jan 28 15:30:46 parts of the current server will be added to the autobuilder to beef it up Jan 28 15:31:16 and other spare parts will shipped to hawaii university for a live offsite backup box Jan 28 15:31:57 (with connectivity to OSUOSL over Internet2) Jan 28 15:34:42 the other internet Jan 28 15:40:56 the BETTER internet Jan 28 15:43:17 rwhitby: That stuff is awesome! I can't wait to see that bad boy come online. Jan 28 16:08:28 dBsooner: I doubt that any one user will see much difference, except that we will have more headroom for the peak periods (like just after webOS releases where our accesses usually triple the normal peaks) Jan 28 16:09:05 and provide room for expanding functionality like web services Jan 28 16:09:25 (or AUPT releases, which doubled the peak for the last 24 hours) Jan 28 16:10:22 that's what I was referring to Jan 28 16:10:23 :) Jan 28 16:10:57 * rwhitby bbt Jan 28 16:25:47 grndslm: don't think "Ultra" patch, think Bundle Jan 28 16:26:09 it would be really easy to make an ipk that had 50 dependencies (being your 50 patches) and release it as "grndslm's patch bundle" Jan 28 16:26:30 egaudet_work, figured... but i'd need an example for that Jan 28 16:26:45 do you know if Jason's Device Menu Megamix patch is a "bundle" like that? Jan 28 16:26:53 it is not Jan 28 16:27:03 a "bundle" takes all the existing stuff, it is nto a patch Jan 28 16:27:14 it just basically tells preware to "install all these packages:" Jan 28 16:27:38 right... but i don't speak ipkg language :( Jan 28 16:28:01 got an example for a bundle with two dependencies by any chance? :D Jan 28 16:28:12 grndslm: it's as simple as Depends: , , , Jan 28 16:28:26 I don't think we have any bundles (yet) Jan 28 16:28:27 grndslm: sftp requires like 4 :p Jan 28 16:28:39 cool... i'll check it out Jan 28 16:28:53 but I could whip up a bundle in 30 seconds Jan 28 16:28:53 assuming you don't already have the dependency things of course :p Jan 28 16:29:09 just throw it in the autobuilder and voila Jan 28 16:29:30 i am not a programmer... just a "power user"... so a bundle is right up my ally Jan 28 16:29:41 thanks a bundle!! :P Jan 28 16:29:58 and the nice thing is with a bundle, any errors in specific patches wont' ruin the install of the rest Jan 28 16:30:32 right, that's why my ultra patch was an instant fail Jan 28 16:30:39 any patches that the user already has installed that are in the bundle is fine, and removing the bundle will remove them too. bundles imo are just a great idea Jan 28 16:30:39 and not being able to update them individually Jan 28 16:30:41 egaudet! Jan 28 16:30:57 hi! Jan 28 16:31:01 http://img.skitch.com/20100128-f9jtxn15i73i67pyesupifuc1u.png Jan 28 16:31:11 and Jan 28 16:31:12 http://img.skitch.com/20100128-8guc9syw4yaxkgpq3upgff96gp.png Jan 28 16:31:14 thanks to you Jan 28 16:32:04 thanks to me? Is that an iPre :P Jan 28 16:32:21 well it wasnt intentional but yes i always used those icons on my iphone Jan 28 16:32:28 i just love them Jan 28 16:32:31 lol Jan 28 16:32:58 looks nice Jan 28 16:33:35 grndslm: I'll probably whip up like a "landscape patch" bundle to show you an example this evening Jan 28 16:34:20 cool beans... Jan 28 16:34:53 there was actually something i wanted to ask you that i saw your name tagged onto last night, but i can't remember anymore :P Jan 28 16:34:59 perhaps it was AUPT? Jan 28 16:35:08 anyway... i actually gotta run, but i'll bbl Jan 28 16:36:01 egaudet you work long hours Jan 28 16:36:04 is there a finite list of patches somewhere with descriptions perhaps Jan 28 16:37:39 no I just wake up late :P Jan 28 16:38:09 fearphage: preware Jan 28 16:38:11 and Jan 28 16:38:12 http://webos-patches.dbsooner.com/?do=browse Jan 28 16:39:36 3 new pdl functions up on wiki Jan 28 16:40:52 link Jan 28 16:40:58 egaudet_work: dang I need to convince rwhitby to let me move the webos-patch web portal to OSUOSL server.. or at least give me a url forward. Jan 28 16:41:14 nm found it Jan 28 16:41:23 because I get dinged for that URL all the time.. Jan 28 16:41:43 i never get "dbsooner: pinged" anymore.. I just get pinged in that url. :) Jan 28 16:43:27 where can i find the original palm pre intro videos. i just want to show off the calendar view really Jan 28 16:43:44 mdklein_: cool Jan 28 16:45:19 why do all iphone users hate the pre by default, its like how all windows users hate macs. Jan 28 16:45:31 jealousy? Jan 28 16:45:37 i love my iphone and pre and mac but i do hte windoes Jan 28 16:45:38 w Jan 28 16:46:20 why do you hate windows Jan 28 16:46:23 no, they arent jealous, because there hasn't been much hype about the pre compared to iphone they genuinely believe the pre is far inferior and in some ways it is but in other ways it is better Jan 28 16:46:40 mdklein_: nice. what tools are you using? Jan 28 16:46:54 i just think its a big bloated sluggish o/s i had it since win95 gave up on it last year when i could finally afford a mac Jan 28 16:46:55 gdb Jan 28 16:47:27 bloated would hardly be a fair term for windows. Jan 28 16:47:49 well i dunno what to say to that lol Jan 28 16:48:34 windows has a ridiculous amount of hardware and software it has to support out of the box. Jan 28 16:48:36 basically gdb, objdump, and remembering the arm assembly I learned waaaay back in college... ok... waaaay back was only 5 years ago, but still, it took a bit to refresh myself :-p Jan 28 16:49:30 osx has the advantage of only needing to support a small set of hardware. linux has the advantage of being customized per system Jan 28 16:49:58 yeah but i still hate it, having used it for 15 years Leopard is so much better. Haven't seen much of Linux although I'm told it's good Jan 28 16:50:14 you're using it on your pre :p Jan 28 16:50:18 linux much? Jan 28 16:50:26 linux has the ridiculous amount of hardware to support Jan 28 16:50:27 not windows Jan 28 16:50:28 and snow leopard has not given me warm feeling for os x Jan 28 16:50:28 shush lol Jan 28 16:50:34 im using snow Jan 28 16:50:52 All the hardware makers have incentive to work it with windows Jan 28 16:50:55 egaudet_work: not at the same time it doesn't. see also: complete lack of proprietary ati/nvidia drivers Jan 28 16:51:00 I hate windows... just because I can Jan 28 16:51:03 I should get around to installing snow one of these days, I've had the dvd staring at me for awhile now, I just hate rebooting Jan 28 16:51:10 VincentLaw: you can give one example Jan 28 16:51:20 see i wanted to say what egaudet said but im not known enough here to say it. so meh Jan 28 16:51:30 but the amount of hw linux works for compared to windows speaks for itself Jan 28 16:51:35 its just shite-there's my well thought out argument Jan 28 16:51:38 ;D Jan 28 16:51:58 again, as I said, it's not the amount of hardware supported, its the amount of hardware it has to support /out of the box/ Jan 28 16:52:11 Linux is not out of the box? Jan 28 16:52:14 no, it is not Jan 28 16:52:22 not even the best live cd distros Jan 28 16:52:45 Its not like Microsoft is coding the drivers for all these hardware vendors Jan 28 16:52:58 the hardware vendors have an obligation to get it to work with Windows based on the market share Jan 28 16:53:11 no one said microsoft was coding the drivers Jan 28 16:53:22 but they have a responsibility to include as many working drivers as possible Jan 28 16:53:26 You can't grab a windows cd and install it and have it just work either Jan 28 16:53:33 you need to go get all your different drivers Jan 28 16:53:36 the OEMs do that Jan 28 16:53:41 and include a ridiculously long list of APIs to support software side as well Jan 28 16:53:46 it's not like windows has a magic cd that installs on everything perfectly Jan 28 16:54:13 linux supports much more "out of the box" than windows Jan 28 16:54:26 I highly disagree Jan 28 16:55:03 I highly disagree as well. Jan 28 16:55:09 i can set up a new osx in half the time it takes to set up vista or 7 because ive done both many a time, loads more drivers needed for win then u have to have antivirus and file/registry cleaners for all that crap that gets left when you uninstall etcetcetc Jan 28 16:55:14 I highly highly disagre Jan 28 16:55:32 iSmite: It takes me 20 minutes to install 7 64 ultimate. Jan 28 16:55:38 at least you can put your raid/sata drivers on a usb stick now for the later windows... I hated having to burn a custom install iso, or dig up a floppy drive to install xp... my gf refuses to upgrade to anything newer, so reinstalling her machine is always a pain. Jan 28 16:55:54 iSmite: it took me an hour to install leopard from DVD. it took me 20 minutes to install vista Jan 28 16:56:01 20 minutes and all your stuff runs on it...hmmmm Jan 28 16:56:07 yea that's a lie Jan 28 16:56:11 it didnt take me that long to install leo Jan 28 16:56:12 iSmite: Yes, it does. Jan 28 16:56:13 okay, throw another 5 minutes in for driver updates Jan 28 16:56:21 it's still less than half the time Jan 28 16:56:31 iSmite: In fact, I have ZERO problems with my 7. But when I install Linux, nothing but problems. Jan 28 16:56:41 dBsooner: that's a lie Jan 28 16:56:46 well not a lie Jan 28 16:56:50 No, it's truth. Jan 28 16:56:53 but it's an example of a larger problem Jan 28 16:56:56 what is a lie? Jan 28 16:56:57 lol no its not u just wanna win this pointless argument..also i dont have linux as an os on a computer so I don't know about that Jan 28 16:57:03 The vendor stranglehold of Microsoft Jan 28 16:57:05 i cant compare Jan 28 16:57:11 It's a hidden problem to which 90% of the world knows nothing about. Jan 28 16:57:21 95% even Jan 28 16:57:23 yea and Microsoft is stealing all their money Jan 28 16:57:36 Microsoft is not a good corporation Jan 28 16:57:38 FIGHT THE MAN Jan 28 16:57:54 bill gates looks like a pervery stuck in 1975 there have we won now Jan 28 16:57:58 I never said MS was a good company. Jan 28 16:57:58 *T Jan 28 16:58:14 The way they stole QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) Jan 28 16:58:19 that made me not like them. Jan 28 16:58:20 dBsooner: plus you are talking about laptop Jan 28 16:58:38 iSmite: Steve Jobs just announced the iPad. What's your point? Jan 28 16:58:47 iPad = iGay Jan 28 16:58:58 iPad = Big iPod Touch Jan 28 16:58:58 yea iPad is pretty lame announcement Jan 28 16:59:10 I was really hoping for VZW iPhone Jan 28 16:59:24 the latest ubuntu releases have worked flawlessly on any laptop I've thrown it at, I kind of forget how bad laptops once were :-p Jan 28 16:59:24 but Jobs was like.. "Look here! We got this iPod Touch.. But BIGGER" Jan 28 16:59:25 so was everyone if you were watching the stock market on palm apparently lol Jan 28 16:59:25 http://www.iphonespies.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/504x_bill_gates_AppTab.jpg Jan 28 16:59:30 yes its an ifail Jan 28 16:59:34 its gonna bomb Jan 28 16:59:36 I'm waiting for the macPad pro Jan 28 16:59:47 iSmite: no it won't. Jan 28 16:59:47 mdklein_: throw a macbook at it >.> Jan 28 16:59:59 iSmite: It will actually be a big hit for the "iPhone/iPod Touch" lovers. Jan 28 17:00:15 s/" lovers./lovers." Jan 28 17:00:21 i think it will, i have spoken to hundreds of people about it since last night and only 3 wanted one, no lie our forum has 300, 000 members Jan 28 17:00:22 also Jan 28 17:00:25 thats not true at all Jan 28 17:00:28 i love my iphone Jan 28 17:00:33 but that thing is pointless Jan 28 17:00:36 see: Jan 28 17:00:51 http://poteflon.pl/71576 Jan 28 17:00:52 :D Jan 28 17:00:56 It's all the talk on the talk radio shows here in Tulsa.. Every caller that called in said they an't wait to get one. Jan 28 17:00:57 accoring to the iPad Jan 28 17:01:14 If work buys me one, I'll play with it... but I'm not going to rush out to buy one... It's not exactly as portable as an ipod.. and about the only thing it has going for it, is the cellular connection for cheap Jan 28 17:01:17 iphone, small, great, portable, mavbook, larger. now why do i need a skinny macbook monitor sized ipod on steriods? its no more portable, it does nothing i cant do on my macbook Jan 28 17:01:20 there was a SNL episode about an iPad once Jan 28 17:01:22 It's targetted toward the "not so techie" people. Jan 28 17:01:27 Just liek the iPhone. Jan 28 17:01:33 I could see it being a hit with the grandparents.. Jan 28 17:01:34 LOl Jan 28 17:01:37 thats pis is ace Jan 28 17:01:45 sorry im typing in pitch black Jan 28 17:01:47 pic Jan 28 17:02:39 iSmite: its for the people that don't have a macbook Jan 28 17:02:49 http://images.pcworld.com/news/graphics/187962-ipants_original.jpg Jan 28 17:02:59 no it isn't, dBsooner Jan 28 17:03:02 Sure it is Jan 28 17:03:09 apple specifically placed it between the macbook and the iphone Jan 28 17:03:11 no its not it has no drive or anything Jan 28 17:03:13 Why would you carry two laptops? Jan 28 17:03:16 its not a substitute Jan 28 17:03:20 exactly Jan 28 17:03:23 they intend to create a new market segment, they want you to have 3 devices Jan 28 17:03:29 That's dumb Jan 28 17:03:32 just cos this oes skinny its skinny cos theres f-ll in it Jan 28 17:03:32 that's apple Jan 28 17:03:48 it's not a laptop replacement, it can't even multitask Jan 28 17:03:51 it's for people that don't have a netbook or an ebook reader, and kind of want both, but don't really want a enTourage eDGe Jan 28 17:03:57 its a massive ipod Jan 28 17:04:04 what good is using Pages if I can't browse the web to do research? Jan 28 17:04:10 that pic that was just posted is so true Jan 28 17:04:11 so its not even a mac os? Jan 28 17:04:11 lo Jan 28 17:04:17 its iPhone's os technically? Jan 28 17:04:17 it's running iphone os 3.2 Jan 28 17:04:20 That's even more dumb. Jan 28 17:04:20 it's iphone os Jan 28 17:04:23 its running on 3.2fw Jan 28 17:04:26 i know Jan 28 17:04:28 stupid Jan 28 17:04:35 thats why its a massive ipod Jan 28 17:04:35 I just wrote off the iPad as beinga hit. Jan 28 17:04:56 brb a bit Jan 28 17:05:16 the problem is, it has nothing that can replace either the iphone or the laptop. the only way it would succeed is to at least render one of those irrelevant, (and best case, render both irrelevant) Jan 28 17:05:18 I'm going to trade my 32GB iPod Touch 4g in for a iPad. Jan 28 17:05:26 Carry that bad boy around with me while working out Jan 28 17:05:27 :) Jan 28 17:05:34 like we used to do with those HUGE boomboxes on our shoulders? Jan 28 17:05:46 i never wolked with a boombox Jan 28 17:05:47 :( Jan 28 17:05:49 there's an app for that Jan 28 17:05:50 walked* Jan 28 17:05:51 I did. Jan 28 17:05:57 I was the shiz. Jan 28 17:06:00 dBsooner, coz u r the shit yo! :) Jan 28 17:06:08 dBsooner is an old man Jan 28 17:06:11 lol Jan 28 17:06:16 * dBsooner is only 27. Jan 28 17:06:16 he is a rastaman Jan 28 17:06:17 :P Jan 28 17:06:22 * VincentLaw is 23 Jan 28 17:06:27 dBsooner: they unlocked voip over 3g in the sdk... you could probably fit a speaker and mic in that HUUUGE bezel, and just pretend it's a giant handset Jan 28 17:06:29 ain't saying Jan 28 17:06:32 chuqui: You going to join in on the Apple hate talk? :D Jan 28 17:06:46 sign the ipad petition Jan 28 17:06:47 um... no. Jan 28 17:06:50 he probably has a contractual obligation to avoid flamewars :p Jan 28 17:06:52 Come on Jan 28 17:07:02 apple's DRM is ruining personal computing slowly but surely Jan 28 17:07:03 chuqui: You gotta say something. :) You used to work there. Jan 28 17:07:08 no, I don't. But I also worked 17+ years for Apple. lots of friends there. Jan 28 17:07:19 steve should show iPad running webOS Jan 28 17:07:33 I did say something -- on my blog. Look here: http://www.chuqui.com/2010/01/the-night-before-the-apple-tablet/ Jan 28 17:07:33 chuqui: You going to get an iPad? Jan 28 17:07:45 and here: http://www.chuqui.com/2010/01/some-thoughts-on-the-ipad/ Jan 28 17:07:46 i think he will Jan 28 17:07:46 i will never buy an ipad Jan 28 17:07:48 ever Jan 28 17:07:50 infact Jan 28 17:07:58 probably. One for my mom; looks to be a great replacement for her laptop. Jan 28 17:08:02 after recent events with apple Jan 28 17:08:08 i will never purchase anything from them ever again Jan 28 17:08:35 chuqui: That's what we were just talking about. how can it be a replacement? It can't multi-task.. Jan 28 17:08:45 i <3'd my apple IIe when i was like 7... but they have absolutely ruined that company and IMHO are attacking the very soul of open source and personal computing Jan 28 17:09:10 apple starts telling you what you can and cannot do with something you just purchased for twice what similar non-apple items cost... Jan 28 17:09:15 read what I wrote. it doesn't need to Jan 28 17:09:16 you can't do any sort of work on the ipad, at all. Jan 28 17:09:24 ifor thepeople it's built for, it's perfect. Jan 28 17:09:31 I don't know who it's built for Jan 28 17:09:43 VincentLaw: look at the DRM Jan 28 17:09:44 but it's not a sexy repackaging of a laptop, it's not a netbook on steroids. It's something different. Jan 28 17:09:50 the ipad DRM makes it so Jan 28 17:09:54 apple can restrict anything they want Jan 28 17:09:57 at will Jan 28 17:10:00 without your concent Jan 28 17:10:34 whoever posted that pic of the giant macbook just, im still laughing at it, i showed it my housemate and hes in hysterics Jan 28 17:10:36 good post chuqui. Jan 28 17:10:41 That is exactly what I was trying to convey. Jan 28 17:10:47 but I am NOT good with words. Jan 28 17:11:28 i will never purchase anything ever again from apple or microsoft Jan 28 17:11:29 it is something different. problem is, it's trying to create a device segment, a new third device everyone should have, but no one needs it. Jan 28 17:11:33 Question: Jan 28 17:11:43 Where would at&t be without the iPhone? Jan 28 17:11:52 uhm, with a less saturated network? Jan 28 17:11:55 oracle is quickly tilting my hat against them now Jan 28 17:12:08 dBsooner, yo i got something for you Jan 28 17:12:12 further.. where would they be if the iPhone wasn't exclusive? Jan 28 17:12:17 dBsooner, i got iPad nano for you http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/4/4a/IPadnano.png Jan 28 17:12:20 :D Jan 28 17:12:34 http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad Jan 28 17:13:02 en0x: hiLARIous Jan 28 17:13:21 dBsooner, r u going to get it when it comes out? :> Jan 28 17:14:18 en0x: I got one. But it doesn't make calls. :) Jan 28 17:14:35 hehe Jan 28 17:14:43 However, I want a stinking Pre Plus on the Sprint network Jan 28 17:14:47 *cough* chuqui *cough* Jan 28 17:15:31 well i'm happy with the pre witout plus Jan 28 17:15:40 me too Jan 28 17:15:44 I'll wait for pre2 Jan 28 17:15:45 I just want double the ram Jan 28 17:15:49 so when the 1.4 is coming out? what day in february? :) Jan 28 17:15:56 1.4? Jan 28 17:16:04 webOS 1.4 Jan 28 17:16:10 gee man Jan 28 17:16:11 Who says there is a 1.4? Jan 28 17:16:23 hm oh John did? Jan 28 17:16:25 (booming godlike voice) there's been no announcement about anything called 1.4 Jan 28 17:16:31 I've heard about an upcoming update for webOS, but not a specific number. Jan 28 17:16:44 it's 2 isn't it Jan 28 17:16:54 2.0. Jan 28 17:16:59 dBsooner, then watch CES again Jan 28 17:17:14 en0x: where is it in the video. Jan 28 17:17:17 2.0.1.0, the version we make contact Jan 28 17:17:24 en0x: where does Ruby specifically say "1.4"? Jan 28 17:17:33 dBsooner, I will tell you after lunch Jan 28 17:17:38 Please. Jan 28 17:17:52 so stick here for and hour and I be back Jan 28 17:17:56 Because if you can, then that's official 1.4 word. :) If not, its still "just an update" Jan 28 17:19:39 i heard they were putting capability for videocamera in the next update or is that just bollocks Jan 28 17:19:48 for people who dont have the pre plus Jan 28 17:21:34 is that just testicles? Jan 28 17:21:37 that makes no sense! Jan 28 17:22:10 iSmite: yes they demo'd video camera at CES Jan 28 17:22:34 oh wow wicked Jan 28 17:22:34 I hope so! It's my biggest grip that there is no video camera. I mean, the Treo had it in 2004 ya know? Jan 28 17:22:41 whens the eta for that then? Jan 28 17:23:38 oh wait though. iphone 2g and 3g can have video but its done through the camera app and only about 6-10fps its as laggy as hell because the hardware isnt in the phone i hope this isnt just going to be a workaround like that one is Jan 28 17:25:04 Nah, the demo we had 2 mos ago wasn't laggy, just was limited to 2 minutes. Was just a raw test, so not sure how the official Palm one is going to be though Jan 28 17:25:19 egaudet_work, destinal: libpdl research updated a bit, figured out what the ints are for :-p Jan 28 17:25:31 keep in mind the pre is much faster than the 2g/3g. it's the same speed as the 3gs Jan 28 17:25:52 m Jan 28 17:25:53 so the videocam hardware is in the phone. which means they are doing an apple and holding bog standard features back thats odd Jan 28 17:26:17 I don't think it was so much holding it back Jan 28 17:26:22 as much as it needed to be developed Jan 28 17:26:44 but videocameras have been on phones since 2001 or so Jan 28 17:26:48 m Jan 28 17:27:42 but they're not all the same Jan 28 17:27:45 and you need software Jan 28 17:27:49 mdklein_: nice Jan 28 17:28:34 dBsooner, http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/10030/full-video-of-palms-ces-2010-presentation-up-now/ 47:52 Jan 28 17:28:38 yeah, it was really just a brain fart on my part... anyway, need to grab some lunch Jan 28 17:29:02 dBsooner, exactly he says in 47:58 webOS 1.4 Jan 28 17:29:13 makes so much sense now :p Jan 28 17:29:38 I know this is off topic but does anyone know if that cortex a9 cpu in the ipad is faster than atom in netbooks Jan 28 17:29:39 I was certainly hoping they weren't just strcpy'ing Jan 28 17:30:16 firestrider: it's not a cortex a9 in the ipad in the first place, but it's likely slower than atom Jan 28 17:30:21 iSmite: I do not think lack of videocamera was holding features back Jan 28 17:30:23 firestrider, it is Jan 28 17:30:34 it's just not as easy as it seems Jan 28 17:30:51 but surely if you are going to release a product it should be finished Jan 28 17:31:03 also the appstore being held back in uk is bad Jan 28 17:31:15 we dont even get it until march Jan 28 17:31:16 iSmite: waiting for a product to be perfect would mean you never release anything Jan 28 17:31:16 dBsooner, u r pwnd!!!!! Jan 28 17:31:22 vincentlaw: you know what is the cpu in the ipad? Jan 28 17:31:28 iSmite: it's not that easy. you'd have infinite development time Jan 28 17:31:41 ive never used a perfect product but videocamera is a standard feature on ant cheap phone these days Jan 28 17:31:41 firestrider: it's a custom arm CPU chip made by some fab Apple bought Jan 28 17:31:46 firestrider, it's some arm processor at 1ghz speed Jan 28 17:31:46 It was better to have the Pre for a few months without GPU than it was to have no pre at all IMO Jan 28 17:32:00 i agree Jan 28 17:32:03 and the pre is an expensive phone Jan 28 17:32:18 not a £50 samsung Jan 28 17:32:21 all smartphones are "Expensive" Jan 28 17:32:22 which has a videocamera lol Jan 28 17:32:30 there's difference between a smartphone having video camera and a camera having a phone :p Jan 28 17:32:50 samsung didn't need to create an entirely new os platform on top of linux for their phone :p Jan 28 17:33:02 and samsung is a much larger company Jan 28 17:33:32 imo if you pay 3-4 times as much for a smartphone than a normal phone it should have the standard features a cheap phone has, on top of that all the extras. Apple did it too with the 2g and 3g I havent had bloody video for 3 years nearly lol Jan 28 17:33:42 apart from workarounds that aren't worth using Jan 28 17:34:23 it's just not that simple Jan 28 17:34:26 unfortunately Jan 28 17:34:39 video camera on a smart phone is not a standard trivial task Jan 28 17:34:49 especially on a brand new OS Jan 28 17:34:57 iSmite: you also have to keep in mind that those featurephones are actually god awfully small on features. a lot less programming required. it's not just about money. it's time and developers Jan 28 17:36:02 the pre only came out here in october and already its practically obsolete now the pre+ is out, except we wont get that for 6 months i bet Jan 28 17:36:12 obsolete? Jan 28 17:36:20 pre+ does not make the pre obsolete Jan 28 17:36:52 and the pre+ is vzw exclusive so yes that won't be going anywhere else for probably 6 months at least Jan 28 17:36:59 yeah its an old model isnt it...the minute the pre+ comes out here the value of my pre 1st gen will depreciate enormously, they could at least have left it a year Jan 28 17:37:01 brb fone Jan 28 17:39:14 prtvtoc /dev/rdsk/c1t0d0s2 | fmthard -s - /dev/rdsk/c1t1d0s2 Jan 28 17:39:19 whoops misfire Jan 28 17:43:13 have a 4x4 icon patch that can't seem to be removed or updated Jan 28 17:43:22 and isn't applied (have 3x icons) Jan 28 17:43:30 any ideas how to fix? Jan 28 17:43:46 EPR says no patches are applied Jan 28 17:44:11 but I guess the ipk for the 4x4 icon patch is still there, but removal fails as nothing to undo Jan 28 17:46:32 spotter: I don't know much about the mechanics of EPR, so I am not sure if getting that status from it really means the 4x4 patch has been backed out successfully ... Jan 28 17:46:51 spotter: ... but if we take your statement "the 4x4 patch is not applied" I can help you get rid of the .ipk Jan 28 17:46:59 s/statement/statement as a given/ Jan 28 17:46:59 nt4cats meant: spotter: ... but if we take your statement as a given "the 4x4 patch is not applied" I can help you get rid of the .ipk Jan 28 17:47:48 spotter: there is a small part of me that is worried (mostly due to my ignorance of EPR and related patch mechanics) that you have bits of the 4x4 hanging around ... Jan 28 17:49:05 its not applied Jan 28 17:49:10 I only have 3x3 icons Jan 28 17:49:45 spotter: do you have shell access to your Pre? Jan 28 17:49:45 however, its in preware Jan 28 17:49:45 therefor ipk probably installed Jan 28 17:49:45 but when I try ot update it (to new vresion) update fails Jan 28 17:49:45 and when I try to remove it, update fails Jan 28 17:49:45 yes Jan 28 17:49:52 temrinal Jan 28 17:49:58 if i had ssh I could figure it out Jan 28 17:50:04 terminal is just too painful to explore :) Jan 28 17:50:21 I figure there's a prerm/postrm script that I just want to rm Jan 28 17:50:25 awesome! a mute icon! Jan 28 17:50:27 * Mousey installs Jan 28 17:52:20 en0x: I'm not pwnd.. I was just too lazy to watch the entire keynote again. I have been wanting to have the 100% confirmation that Ruby said that. Jan 28 17:53:15 OK, so that means the existence of 1.4 can be talkeda bout. Jan 28 17:53:21 But what 1.4 will do, cannot. Jan 28 17:54:30 chuqui: comment? Jan 28 17:54:39 Will 1.4 make me breakfast? Jan 28 17:55:08 yes, 1.4 -- the release number, not the details -- isn't under NDA. Jan 28 17:55:12 count me amused.... Jan 28 17:55:24 (and congrats. I like initiative) Jan 28 17:55:48 egaudet_work: IN the long run, yes it will.. Because you can place an order for food on it. Jan 28 17:56:02 but we still can't talk about 1.5 publically right? the number that is Jan 28 17:56:24 spotter: ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps list_installed | grep "4x4" Jan 28 17:57:08 spotter: that'll show us which package you have (there are several '4x4' patches) -- at the same time confirming that the .ipk is there Jan 28 17:57:38 spotter: if you're using terminal you press "ORANGE+{period}" to get the pipe character Jan 28 17:59:17 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:17 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:17 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:18 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:20 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:22 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:23 spam Jan 28 17:59:24 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:26 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:28 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:30 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:32 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:34 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:36 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:38 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:40 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:42 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:44 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:46 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:48 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:50 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:50 dangit Jan 28 17:59:52 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:53 ~smack uhrib Jan 28 17:59:53 I still don't have ops Jan 28 17:59:54 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:54 * infobot smacks uhrib upside the head. Jan 28 17:59:55 ! Jan 28 17:59:56 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 17:59:58 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 18:00:00 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 18:00:02 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 18:00:04 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 18:00:06 VERSION Learn more at http://free.sweettits.net/ Jan 28 18:00:19 gay spam =[ Jan 28 18:00:23 morning all Jan 28 18:05:18 nt4cats, 1.3.5-3 v2 Jan 28 18:05:20 en0x: how much do you think that shirt Ruby's wearing cost? Jan 28 18:06:29 spotter: ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps remove org.webosinternals.patches.app-launcher-4x4-icons-v2 Jan 28 18:06:49 dBsooner, idk maybe 300 bucks? :P Jan 28 18:07:05 probabyl Jan 28 18:07:10 looks like silk or something Jan 28 18:07:16 to me too Jan 28 18:07:19 * nt4cats 's shirt cost in the University of Illinois student store Jan 28 18:07:25 err eleven dollars Jan 28 18:08:05 Is it my IRC client -- or all IRC clients -- that eat numbers that follow a dollar sign? Is it trying to do some sort of shell-type positional replacement? Jan 28 18:08:19 $$ Jan 28 18:08:24 $$ Jan 28 18:08:25 $ Jan 28 18:08:26 that worked Jan 28 18:08:28 $1 Jan 28 18:08:28 $5 Jan 28 18:08:36 hello this is $5 worth of text Jan 28 18:08:43 five dollars ?!?! Jan 28 18:08:50 * nt4cats charges for this one Jan 28 18:08:59 okay -- it only eats the dollar-signs when I start with "/me" Jan 28 18:09:02 looks like it tries a replacement in actions Jan 28 18:09:59 these internets are ineffable. Jan 28 18:10:32 argh Jan 28 18:10:35 must have typed it wrong Jan 28 18:10:41 no packaged removed Jan 28 18:11:03 argh Jan 28 18:11:04 icoons Jan 28 18:11:11 how does one do up arrow in terminalo Jan 28 18:11:38 gesture 2 Jan 28 18:11:53 figured it out Jan 28 18:11:55 now removed Jan 28 18:12:37 now installed patch again and waiting for luna to restart Jan 28 18:12:43 also, how does one install aupt? Jan 28 18:13:01 you dont Jan 28 18:13:08 aupt is the magic behind patches Jan 28 18:13:13 ok Jan 28 18:13:41 btw Jan 28 18:13:51 the crack at my usb has no evolved into a hole Jan 28 18:13:51 sspeaking of which.. egaudet_work you need to get back to dealing with AM's in YOUR thread. Jan 28 18:14:00 ? Jan 28 18:14:01 I can see screws Jan 28 18:14:04 I already dealt with everyone Jan 28 18:14:25 AFTER i did? Jan 28 18:14:37 and anyone who doesn't follow instructions or asks repetitive questions well go doctor or full erase Jan 28 18:14:42 nt4cats, thanks figured it was something like that Jan 28 18:14:50 AUPT is protection not hand holding Jan 28 18:15:10 so AUPT will atuomatically uninstall patches on upgrade? Jan 28 18:15:15 no Jan 28 18:15:17 so no more epr? Jan 28 18:15:21 so how does it avoid epr? Jan 28 18:15:21 yes Jan 28 18:15:31 GOOD GOD Jan 28 18:15:33 go read the thread Jan 28 18:15:34 :) Jan 28 18:15:46 all 3 of those questions have been answered Jan 28 18:15:47 use only preware and you'll "never" have a problem :D Jan 28 18:15:54 link? Jan 28 18:16:04 ~aupt Jan 28 18:16:05 all I've seen is in referenced here Jan 28 18:16:05 it has been said that aupt is the best thing for patching webos since .. well.. patching: http://forums.precentral.net/webos-patches/227163-aupt-auto-update-patch-technology.html Jan 28 18:16:36 spotter, I think what I gathered from the forum posting was that AUPT basically will just keep a dummy package on your phone so after an upgrade you hit "update all" and it reapplies all the patches (that are capable of being applied) Jan 28 18:16:51 not exactly Jan 28 18:17:11 dummy package is sort of a coinciding idea but not directly linked to aupt Jan 28 18:17:17 the forum post wasn't exactly clear on what all it does (unless it got more descriptived a few pages in ?) Jan 28 18:17:31 the bottom line is follow preware and you never have to EPR :P Jan 28 18:17:43 all patches are in webos-version specific feeds Jan 28 18:17:54 Yay no EPR. Jan 28 18:17:55 I've only used preware anyway all those other "installers" feel shady ;) Jan 28 18:17:59 so when you OTA update webos, all the versions of the patches are obviously higher than the ones you had installed Jan 28 18:18:12 so they will all show as updates Jan 28 18:18:14 So, will APUT make my 3d games run faster? Jan 28 18:18:44 the "magic" is that the prerm script now can say "ooh you OTA I see what you did, fine don't try to unapply the patch because webos already changed the file" Jan 28 18:19:18 ah Jan 28 18:19:27 I see Jan 28 18:19:29 but it can also be forgiving when you doctor for instance and the ipkg's are still installed on media Jan 28 18:19:45 so it will say "ohh the patch is completely reversed, I'll let you remove the ipkg data without failing like I used to in APT" Jan 28 18:21:33 so its basically just a smarter prerm script Jan 28 18:21:35 or postrm Jan 28 18:21:38 whichever one you are using Jan 28 18:22:56 yea smarter postinst/prerm scripts Jan 28 18:23:25 and then I absolutely love the -0 dummy package idea we came up with :) Jan 28 18:23:36 which is? Jan 28 18:23:53 -0 packages are all empty ipk's, every single patch for each webos version builds a -0 packge first. Jan 28 18:23:59 ok Jan 28 18:24:12 so even if patch isn't available yet, doesn't get uninstalled? Jan 28 18:24:19 so after an update even if all the patches aren't ported yet you still see an update to -0 pacakge (allowing you to remove the old maybe outdated patch) Jan 28 18:24:25 :) Jan 28 18:24:30 what I said Jan 28 18:24:31 but the -0 package is empty and is installed Jan 28 18:24:39 brilliant! Jan 28 18:24:50 people on my irc fail: Jan 28 18:24:52 pumpa: and savant, its funny how u r homophobic about men who aren't even gay, I mean wtff lol ''savant: men kissing affectionately like that should not be allowed as sigs being as we are a family site '' Jan 28 18:24:57 but as soon as it's ported you'll see the update available in preware, so you don't have to monitor 10 threads waiting for patches to be ported :) Jan 28 18:25:08 egaudet, what I figured in my statement Jan 28 18:25:15 egaudet_work: I just thought of something Jan 28 18:25:29 yes Jan 28 18:25:40 oh and for any VKB usesrs, 1.3.5-3 fixes memos problem Jan 28 18:25:43 egaudet_work: we'll have to make sure to obsolete a -0 package if it doesn't need to be ported. Jan 28 18:25:46 just built to preware Jan 28 18:25:46 I've been using debian for close to 15 years now, I understand :) Jan 28 18:26:00 dBsooner: why? Jan 28 18:26:16 egaudet_work: otherwsie they will always have a -0 installed for no reason. Jan 28 18:26:19 so what Jan 28 18:26:21 it's empty Jan 28 18:26:23 and does no harm Jan 28 18:26:30 and they can remove it whenever they want Jan 28 18:26:38 except when they move on to a new version Jan 28 18:26:40 they will carry it again Jan 28 18:26:42 so what Jan 28 18:26:50 * nt4cats just bought his first 3d game for his Pre (downloading brothers in arms now) Jan 28 18:26:50 they update all and get another -0 (if they had it installed) Jan 28 18:26:52 and over time it could lead to them having a ton of useless packages installed. Jan 28 18:26:58 um no Jan 28 18:27:03 and who cares Jan 28 18:27:11 does preware have the ability to have "conflict" and autoremove packages that conflict? Jan 28 18:27:18 can be used for patches that are no longer needed Jan 28 18:27:19 no Jan 28 18:27:51 anyways, thanks again for the patch problem, back to work Jan 28 18:27:59 you wouldn't want to auto remove conflict, you want to prevent installation for conflicts Jan 28 18:28:18 I started to work on a tool to detect conflicting patches, I had *zero* time to work on it. A job at a startup plus two young kids doesn't leave me much time for hacking on the side ... Jan 28 18:28:34 yes, but for patches I was treating it as a special case Jan 28 18:28:40 albiet patches may want to conflict in general too Jan 28 18:28:50 so perhaps "unknown" patches might be treated special Jan 28 18:28:57 if unknown and only -0 is installed Jan 28 18:29:05 or unknown and not for current webos version Jan 28 18:31:02 -0 is harmless Jan 28 18:31:12 if it bugs the user having a -0 show up as installed in preware, they remove it Jan 28 18:31:24 otherwise it is empty and harmless Jan 28 18:34:37 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 18:34:37 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 18:34:37 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 18:35:19 huh Jan 28 18:37:22 I love the interwebs Jan 28 18:37:31 all of them Jan 28 18:38:58 gnaa, fun Jan 28 18:41:22 Wow, getting actual GNAA spam Jan 28 18:41:40 spam has been pretty hearty lately Jan 28 18:41:44 the've outgrown slashdot Jan 28 18:41:48 what is gnaa anyway? Jan 28 18:41:53 gnaa? Jan 28 18:42:01 now there's a blast from the past Jan 28 18:42:01 oh, i see it Jan 28 18:42:03 don't ask Jan 28 18:42:10 yeah, googled it. now i know Jan 28 18:42:20 and knowing is half the battle Jan 28 18:42:21 random q: how can you be homophobic when the subject you are talking about is not gay. Because I'm arguing this now with someone. Jan 28 18:42:22 go joe! Jan 28 18:42:41 round(0.5) = full battle Jan 28 18:42:46 how apropos Jan 28 18:43:07 iSmite: you're arguing with a GNAA spammer? Jan 28 18:43:18 lol no, a macho idiot Jan 28 18:43:44 wannabe gangsta with his bros and hos Jan 28 18:43:49 iSmite: http://tinyurl.com/mfbwav Jan 28 18:43:58 i doubt you want to click on that Jan 28 18:44:23 damn. well that would have worked if hed won. no i wish i hadnt Jan 28 18:44:28 *now Jan 28 18:44:46 we're all winnars now Jan 28 18:45:09 everyone on our forum has women with boobs out avatars. Jan 28 18:45:18 im female so i put a sexy pic of bloke... Jan 28 18:45:20 they freak. Jan 28 18:45:28 hah Jan 28 18:45:44 that's amusing. Jan 28 18:45:45 except im admin so they can suck it rofl Jan 28 18:45:49 sigh Jan 28 18:46:02 they r saying its gay. Jan 28 18:46:09 makes no sense Jan 28 18:47:00 * geist kills this thread dead Jan 28 18:47:03 thats because there's no such thing as women on the internet, duh Jan 28 18:47:33 Mousey: lol Jan 28 18:47:45 lol the amount of times ive heard that Jan 28 18:47:55 not in irc anyway and def not computers Jan 28 18:48:08 geist: the spam link makes your browser an irc spam drone too Jan 28 18:48:26 which is why i didn't click Jan 28 18:48:28 and often gets you Klined automagically Jan 28 18:48:47 * Mousey would post no such url's Jan 28 18:48:54 * Mousey is an upstanding member of the internets Jan 28 18:49:14 you could post them back a link of lemonparty Jan 28 18:49:15 .. Jan 28 18:49:20 works for me Jan 28 18:49:22 or meatspin Jan 28 18:49:25 yeah Jan 28 18:49:35 or poobutton Jan 28 18:49:42 don't know that one Jan 28 18:49:42 they need to fix/replace irc daemon asap to stop http posts from working for this Jan 28 18:49:51 and the one with the 3 old blokes in a shower Jan 28 18:49:55 or goatse Jan 28 18:49:59 or tubgirl Jan 28 18:50:09 tubgirl everyones seen it though Jan 28 18:50:14 same with goatse Jan 28 18:50:18 my tubgirl radar just went off... did someone say tubgirl?? Jan 28 18:50:19 yeah Jan 28 18:50:20 we need new shock sites Jan 28 18:50:29 ok enough associative imagery Jan 28 18:50:33 lemme find the one with the old blokes its better than lemonparty Jan 28 18:50:47 iSmite: you know, you have a choice.. you don't actually -have- to Jan 28 18:50:53 ^_^ Jan 28 18:51:04 lol no its bugging me i cant remember its name Jan 28 18:51:08 ah Jan 28 18:51:21 ah i remember Jan 28 18:51:23 moldymen Jan 28 18:51:28 nice Jan 28 18:51:28 better than all of them Jan 28 18:51:43 2girls1cup, too Jan 28 18:51:48 but that takes longer Jan 28 18:51:48 seen it Jan 28 18:51:53 i need new ones Jan 28 18:51:56 same here Jan 28 18:51:58 lets ask 4chan! Jan 28 18:52:14 yeah i already tried there moldmen was the best i could find Jan 28 18:52:26 dammit, they're losing their edge Jan 28 18:53:06 geist: so does tellbootie let you change bootie env or is there any way to do it from linux on the device? Jan 28 18:53:27 no. it's disabled on retail Jan 28 18:53:34 aw Jan 28 18:53:34 however.... the env is stored in the nvram partition Jan 28 18:53:45 it's just a list of name value seperated by NULL Jan 28 18:54:02 ah, cool Jan 28 18:54:11 like uboot Jan 28 18:54:15 but you had better be incredibly careful if you go mucking around in there Jan 28 18:54:22 yep. just like uboot Jan 28 18:54:36 and crc on the env? Jan 28 18:54:57 * Mousey restarts Luna Jan 28 18:55:04 no crc on the env. the env is intended to just be stupid data, easy to parse Jan 28 18:55:09 yes I'll backup p1. it's very bad to break Jan 28 18:55:13 the tokens have crc on them, since they're systemwide data Jan 28 18:55:29 but the tokens are packed inside the nvram partition Jan 28 18:55:40 if you look at the start of nvram there's a table of contents, i think it's pretty easy to sort out Jan 28 18:56:01 name, offset, length, etc Jan 28 18:56:24 that's where tokens, env, boot logos are stored Jan 28 18:56:29 why was it called nvram btw if it's on flash, is it loaded into nv somewhere or just historical reasons Jan 28 18:57:08 yeah, for historical reasons. on future devices we may not put it there Jan 28 18:57:27 i actually hate the fact that we have to put it on the same flash zone that people can write to Jan 28 18:57:34 but it's all the storage we got on pre/pixi Jan 28 18:57:49 future devices we may stuff it somewhere else, like the boot partition on newer mmc 4.3+ parts Jan 28 18:58:10 i did a similar thing for iphone, but the first couple gens at least had a NOR flash in addition to nand Jan 28 18:58:17 so all the nvramy stuff went there Jan 28 18:58:53 but i called it nvram for the intent, not the implementation, really Jan 28 19:00:19 *nods* that's what I figured but it makes sense. seems like p1 is the only thing you can't doctor back so I understand the downside of having it on flash Jan 28 19:01:57 right Jan 28 19:02:17 at palm we have a somewhat lower level tool than the doctor that can restore it froms cratch Jan 28 19:02:39 uses basically the same mechanism as the doctor but has to talk to the mothership/etc so it's not really shippable Jan 28 19:03:13 key is it uses the omap's low level recovery mechanism to shoot up a bootie that runs out of ram to then load the ramdisk which then can lay down a complete file system, including nvram Jan 28 19:03:38 but that low level recovery is a pain to ship to customers, mostly because it's a big nightmare for windows support Jan 28 19:04:10 yeah,I've usb booted bootie and then sent bootie the installer image, and novaterm'd in Jan 28 19:04:39 seems like with a p1 backup. I could recover scratch, Jan 28 19:04:52 yep, absolutely Jan 28 19:05:06 if you want to muck around with that i'd recommend dding off say the first 8MB of the device Jan 28 19:05:15 geist: ship it and say "microsoft support? get a man's OS girls..." Jan 28 19:05:18 that'll get the partition table, bootie, and all of nvram Jan 28 19:05:42 and if you can omap load bootie back and start the ramdisk, then you are set to put it back Jan 28 19:05:49 *nods* good idea Jan 28 19:06:01 you know how to transfer files with novacom right? Jan 28 19:06:06 novacom get/put file:// ? Jan 28 19:06:15 I use it all the time :) Jan 28 19:06:21 excellent Jan 28 19:06:30 yeah although it doesn't have corruption protection Jan 28 19:06:41 well, it's checksummed all the way through it Jan 28 19:06:43 I guess md5sum fte Jan 28 19:06:43 ftw Jan 28 19:06:49 but yeah md5sum it if you want Jan 28 19:07:04 or pipe it through tar/gz or something Jan 28 19:07:07 ah I guess I had a crc collision Jan 28 19:07:08 that adds a checksum Jan 28 19:07:19 I have corrupted data before on get and put Jan 28 19:07:42 well, we just fixed a pretty big bug in novacomd yesterday, took us forever to find it Jan 28 19:08:06 but it only showed up if you were spawning processes simultaneously. race condition that would cause it to close newly recycled fds inside Jan 28 19:08:18 which generally meant it would prematurely close stdin/stderr on a process Jan 28 19:08:31 but occasionally meant it'd stuff a byte into one of the other processes's stdin/stdout Jan 28 19:08:32 ah, that could have been it Jan 28 19:08:38 but it is extremely rare Jan 28 19:08:57 and since the installer is crced it would always catch it Jan 28 19:09:33 it'll be in the next update i think Jan 28 19:10:16 novaterm seems pretty flaky at times on my ubuntu desktop Jan 28 19:10:23 have to often unplug/replug USB cord Jan 28 19:10:28 oh yeah? Jan 28 19:10:39 against what? pre or pixi? Jan 28 19:10:43 oh is novacomd losing you? Jan 28 19:10:54 geist: are you guys planning on adding vpnc soon? Jan 28 19:11:01 pre Jan 28 19:11:19 hmm, if there's any flakyness i'd expect it against a pixi. we had to fight a lot to get usb stable on that one Jan 28 19:11:26 i'll novaterm and either get "no device found" or get in for 2 seconds and get disconnected quickly Jan 28 19:11:35 the QC phy is built into the chip and just not as good as the one on the twl4030 in the pre Jan 28 19:11:37 you guys know how to check the nsid and phone number on a pixi? the spring tech sup wanted me to type ##563951#, but that just searched google for it Jan 28 19:11:41 but after replugging USB it usually stable Jan 28 19:12:29 loot_: vpnc has been in the opensource repo forever, seems like palm has intended to use it for corporate vpn's Jan 28 19:12:33 dunno. that's pretty high level, could be a lot of stuff inside it Jan 28 19:12:39 destinal: yes thats why i asked Jan 28 19:12:41 loot_: yeah, cant comment on that kind of thing Jan 28 19:12:46 ok np Jan 28 19:12:55 im using it now i was just hoping for a sexy integrated implementation Jan 28 19:13:07 btw, i'm trying to get them to fix the pixi kernel source thing Jan 28 19:13:17 it looks like just a big booboo Jan 28 19:13:33 we would appriciate it. Jan 28 19:13:35 we have some open source guys that try to take a snapshot of the code and auto generate the patches, but they dont know how to use git apparently Jan 28 19:13:35 hmm aonic got a beta mytether out for "donors" Jan 28 19:13:38 jettero: did you type it into the phone dialer? Jan 28 19:13:47 and the kernel and a few other projects are hosted internally in git Jan 28 19:14:49 i think previously they wer egetting one of us kernel guys to generate the patch for them, but we were bitching that it was taking a long time so they tried to do it themselves Jan 28 19:14:58 making a patch via git should be extremely easy Jan 28 19:15:04 but i suspect they screwed up and actually pulled an ancient patch from svn, back when we had the kernel hosted there Jan 28 19:15:12 destinal: I also typed it there, nothing useful happened... perhaps I typed it poorly Jan 28 19:15:13 it is, they just dont understand it Jan 28 19:15:28 there is an email thread going around now about how they could automate it Jan 28 19:15:31 well, good luck Jan 28 19:15:51 git is really scary to a lot of folks Jan 28 19:16:01 it's VERY different Jan 28 19:16:04 yeah Jan 28 19:16:23 git is great once you get used to it IMO Jan 28 19:16:25 i love it and pretty much want to marry it, but it takes a while to drag people to my viewpoint Jan 28 19:16:27 yea Jan 28 19:16:41 i have to agree Jan 28 19:16:43 I didn't know git before here Jan 28 19:16:43 usually there's an ah ha moment when people realise how badass it is Jan 28 19:16:43 the new way is always like that. Jan 28 19:16:46 now I love it Jan 28 19:16:49 after using every version control system ever Jan 28 19:16:55 there's tons of things like git, none quite as good in my opinion, but there are others Jan 28 19:16:58 cvs, svn, perforce... etc Jan 28 19:17:00 the cvs/svn way is dying I think Jan 28 19:17:02 git is just awesome Jan 28 19:17:19 yep. same here. i always end up being the 'svn guy' or the 'perforce guy' at every company i work for Jan 28 19:17:32 spent 2 days rebuiligna perforce server at SEGA a couple years back Jan 28 19:17:34 perforce is awesome for large projects Jan 28 19:17:36 its just damn expensive Jan 28 19:17:40 cvs will haunt humanity for all time like a curse Jan 28 19:17:43 and helped push apple away from cvs to svn before that Jan 28 19:17:51 I never tried perforce, ... Jan 28 19:18:03 I seem to mostly hear good things though Jan 28 19:18:06 git is awesome if you have responsible people handling merging, at least that has been our experience here and that we don't have responsible individuals for that, nor can someone focus on that task just by themselves so we still live by HEAD/svn model Jan 28 19:18:13 it works pretty good for what we were doing at SEGA: windows based, large blobs of binaries in the source tree Jan 28 19:18:16 jettero: its great its just very expensive Jan 28 19:18:24 git collapses under GB of binaries, svn doesn't do much better Jan 28 19:18:28 p4 is great for that Jan 28 19:18:51 these are meant for managing code... I suspect none of them handle GB blobs well Jan 28 19:19:00 p4 does actually quite well Jan 28 19:19:05 ya perforce does fine Jan 28 19:19:06 hrm Jan 28 19:19:18 i use to maintain video game visual studio solutions in perforce Jan 28 19:19:23 doesn't let you merge or anything, but it doesn't break a sweat when moving around chunks of data like that Jan 28 19:19:23 ahh Jan 28 19:19:30 we even had our "assets" in the tree Jan 28 19:19:34 heh,guess you can't just say "you're doing it wrong" Jan 28 19:19:35 yep. same as sega Jan 28 19:19:39 It still seems like a poor place to store that, but I get the motivation Jan 28 19:19:45 check out game and you get 100GB of source and assets Jan 28 19:19:50 lol ya Jan 28 19:19:56 its great at that Jan 28 19:19:56 plus Jan 28 19:20:03 their visual studio integration is just perfect Jan 28 19:20:04 downside is it takes forever to check it out Jan 28 19:20:07 but ya Jan 28 19:20:19 i helped it a bit by setting up my own linux based p4 proxy Jan 28 19:20:26 so ok. perforce rocks at things... how does it stack up to git overall? Jan 28 19:20:31 since it also ended up being merge bitch Jan 28 19:20:42 jetter: if it was an all windows world... it would be better Jan 28 19:20:55 like i said Jan 28 19:20:57 git seems to be getting better at windows Jan 28 19:21:00 theres a tool for every job Jan 28 19:21:04 it's too snobby for windows atm Jan 28 19:21:06 the way i figure it is git is less designed for the committer and much more for the maintainer Jan 28 19:21:07 its hard to compare git to anything else at all really Jan 28 19:21:26 heh Jan 28 19:21:30 wasnt git designed specifically to maintain the linux kernel source tree? Jan 28 19:21:31 it does a pretty damn good job at maintaining the largest and most distributed project in the world (probably) Jan 28 19:21:36 absolutely Jan 28 19:21:37 loot_: indirectly Jan 28 19:21:45 no, pretty much directly Jan 28 19:21:54 and you can tell it was written by an OS guy Jan 28 19:21:55 loot_: I mean, that's clearly what his goal was, but it evolved from there to be a general solution Jan 28 19:22:02 ya i thought like 3 kernel devs decided to reinvent the wheel for the linux kernels needs Jan 28 19:22:05 geist: any luck with getting onto mainline kernel? Jan 28 19:22:05 he writes a content addressible file system, makes it very efficient Jan 28 19:22:07 and it ended up just being awesome Jan 28 19:22:14 and then you built a scm on top of that Jan 28 19:22:22 LT has a long google video thing about it where he explains his motiviations Jan 28 19:22:29 ah Jan 28 19:22:31 destinal: getting what in? Jan 28 19:22:33 it wasn't just for kernel dev. The fully distributed part and the merging was the real goal Jan 28 19:23:10 geist: I mean switching from ti omap code to the new mainline model Jan 28 19:23:21 ah, well, i think we have a new one working on 2.6.29, mostly mainline Jan 28 19:23:26 I envision Linus "damn you stupid source control tools, I'm writing my own!" Jan 28 19:23:37 got to work out the kinks, and essentially reimplement most of power management. it's a huge project Jan 28 19:23:42 he really liked bk. I suspect there's a lotta bk ideas in git Jan 28 19:23:51 I use bk at work Jan 28 19:24:25 pixi is much easier to move to 2.6.29, since the .24 based thing we're shipping is essentially just the android code + support for 7227 Jan 28 19:24:35 torvalds vs bk was more of a license thing than a features thing iirc Jan 28 19:24:39 finding the next release to drop it in is going to be a bit harder Jan 28 19:24:49 we have to really stabilize it and make sure it doesn't regress anywhere Jan 28 19:25:09 after .29 i suspect we'll follow android and jump to .32 or so Jan 28 19:25:34 code from QC for msm cpus tend to follow android by about a month, and i know they're in the middle of going to .32 Jan 28 19:27:33 cool, I knew you guys were looking to move up to a newish kernel but that actually doing so was a huge amount of work. good to hear that it's coming along Jan 28 19:27:33 if you want to know what evil personified as a version control system is, just try using ClearCase Jan 28 19:27:41 I don't envy you :) Jan 28 19:27:55 curse you, ClearCase. Cursed be the day you were born Jan 28 19:28:02 destinal: yeah, as usual we dont have enough people to do what we need, so priorities tend to take over Jan 28 19:28:17 any kernel people that want to jump in please send your resumes! Jan 28 19:28:21 no xcomp - visual source safe..... Jan 28 19:28:21 hmm Jan 28 19:28:40 hmm Jan 28 19:28:48 what version of gcc does palm compile with? Jan 28 19:28:52 probably gcc3 right? Jan 28 19:29:08 some preware admin here, btw? Jan 28 19:29:09 we have used codesourcery 2007q3, and we just moved up to a current one Jan 28 19:29:14 but they're all 4.3+ based Jan 28 19:29:19 ahhh ok Jan 28 19:29:27 i think the enxt release is compiled with the new one Jan 28 19:29:29 so its capable of -fstack-protector Jan 28 19:29:32 lord knows how many times I've wanted to defy company policy and just install my own git repo Jan 28 19:29:38 do you guys -fPIC? Jan 28 19:29:43 loot_: where? Jan 28 19:29:53 just in general Jan 28 19:29:58 depends on what we're compiling. you pic compile libs, usually not the app Jan 28 19:30:09 im piecing together a hardening doc for the pre Jan 28 19:30:14 though PIC doesn't really help you nearly as much on arm as it does on x86 Jan 28 19:30:21 yea Jan 28 19:30:24 since the instruction set mostly has you do PIC code already Jan 28 19:30:27 it does help for some things though Jan 28 19:30:33 geist: doesn't moving to current cs give you a lot more hardware floating point support? Jan 28 19:30:41 if so,very cool Jan 28 19:30:45 less so and more bugfixes in glibc Jan 28 19:30:46 if you have a hardened kernel Jan 28 19:30:51 certain things will not run without PIC Jan 28 19:31:03 well... they will but you have to severally soften the kernel to do it Jan 28 19:31:08 and better support for thumb2 Jan 28 19:31:21 though we kind of looked at it and i dont think we're going to turn on thumb2 quite yet Jan 28 19:31:33 it doesn't seem to be as big of a win on these relatively 'massive' arms as it used to Jan 28 19:32:08 hmm,bigger caches now Jan 28 19:32:23 in general since we dont have a consistent fpu across all the cpus we're shipping we just try to avoid fp as much as possible Jan 28 19:32:34 though i'm pretty sure we'll always at least have vfpv2 Jan 28 19:33:50 anyone know how to get in touch with that cykiller guy? Jan 28 19:35:26 hmm Jan 28 19:36:30 thumb-2 has 130 new instructions Jan 28 19:36:38 and doesnt require thumb mode to access all registers Jan 28 19:37:01 * loot_ reads up Jan 28 19:38:18 hmm Jan 28 19:38:30 thumb2 extends thumb1 to be general purpose Jan 28 19:38:37 so that there's essentially no reason not to use it Jan 28 19:38:48 geist: is palm using truztzone's for anything non-DRM related yet? Jan 28 19:38:55 trouble is compiler and linux support has been shoddy Jan 28 19:39:03 nope. no intention of using trustzone ever Jan 28 19:39:10 awww how come? Jan 28 19:39:14 too much low level work? Jan 28 19:39:20 doesn't solve anything Jan 28 19:39:24 linux doesn't support it, etc Jan 28 19:39:31 ya Jan 28 19:39:40 it can be done without linux support Jan 28 19:39:43 but its a lot of work Jan 28 19:40:07 i think a ot of us have been burned by iphone and all the hacking that goes on it to root it Jan 28 19:40:15 so our strategy was just make it wide open, dont bother Jan 28 19:40:23 yea.. Jan 28 19:40:23 in the end its a waste of time Jan 28 19:40:28 we appreciate it Jan 28 19:40:42 and its inline with the old palm openness Jan 28 19:40:49 after apple changed all ipods to hfs and started locking you out of the devices Jan 28 19:40:50 We love you guys.... Jan 28 19:40:52 as long as it doesn't burn us too bad its mostly a win win for us Jan 28 19:40:58 i decided to never buy another one of their products again Jan 28 19:41:01 lol, too bad Jan 28 19:41:15 this is the only second palm device ive ever owned Jan 28 19:41:31 but the open-ness and the open arms welcome from the developer community Jan 28 19:41:37 i will be a repeat customer :P Jan 28 19:42:06 and we definitely do watch what you guys are doing and thinking about Jan 28 19:42:29 not from a big brother point of view, but to see what the community wants Jan 28 19:42:39 yea... you guys are actually worried about the quality of the end product and what the users think about the things you do Jan 28 19:42:54 instead of just telling us to f-off and locking us out of something we just paid for Jan 28 19:42:55 we have some stumbles but it's getting better all the time Jan 28 19:43:51 It was funny Tues night. A UK iphone forum mod was setting up ssh to her pre, and she had never used a public-private key pair, Jan 28 19:43:53 well kudos for bringing SDL over Jan 28 19:43:55 Just get Shazam the PDK, and I'm in forever. Jan 28 19:43:57 that was the one thing i was waiting for Jan 28 19:44:18 ye Jan 28 19:44:26 yep. believe me i think we want to get it out asap Jan 28 19:44:30 We pointed out that that was how the iphone worm ate europe recently. Jan 28 19:44:41 and that we CARE about security..... Jan 28 19:44:41 there's just some work to be done Jan 28 19:45:07 rick_work: iphone worm was dumb Jan 28 19:45:14 for the most part if we delay something or give you frusterating dates, its simply because we're busy and have to finish it :) Jan 28 19:45:24 they should have just prompted for pw Jan 28 19:45:50 * loot_ claims to be working on a duke nukem 3d port Jan 28 19:45:54 * loot_ delays indefinitely Jan 28 19:45:57 haha Jan 28 19:46:02 * loot_ continues to bait the audience and delay Jan 28 19:46:14 loot_ receives bacon Jan 28 19:46:20 lol Jan 28 19:46:34 loot_: I'm all out of gum... Jan 28 19:46:49 loot_: I trying duke3d too Jan 28 19:46:50 my favorite quote from that game Jan 28 19:47:02 is him stuffing money in the strippers g string saying "shake it, baby" Jan 28 19:47:24 I'm partial to.. "eat shit and die" Jan 28 19:47:25 :p Jan 28 19:47:31 for some reason pixelated strippers are extremely hilarious to me Jan 28 19:47:33 I like the bluntness.. Jan 28 19:47:49 i would rather have old school duke nukem Jan 28 19:47:54 those were more fun Jan 28 19:47:57 Duke64 was the first Duke I played.. Jan 28 19:48:00 the side scroller? Jan 28 19:48:03 yeah Jan 28 19:48:07 geist: delays because your busy like for example the delay on GPU for the pixi? ((( THAT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO GET INFORMATION. It's a snarkey remark. ))) Jan 28 19:48:09 the side scrollers kicked ass Jan 28 19:48:13 those were 16bit Jan 28 19:48:14 :( Jan 28 19:48:15 http://i.imgur.com/5vREa.png Jan 28 19:48:18 loot_: so what Jan 28 19:48:22 they were mad fun Jan 28 19:48:36 did they ever release the source to those like they did duke3d? Jan 28 19:48:39 and the controls are easy Jan 28 19:48:48 So does the GBA emulator run any games at a decent speed? :( Jan 28 19:48:49 nope Jan 28 19:48:55 thats unfortunate Jan 28 19:48:55 ird_: full speed Jan 28 19:49:09 ird_: for non gameboy advance i believe Jan 28 19:49:19 Rick_work: exactly Jan 28 19:49:26 So GBA roms are pointless to play on it then? Just GB? Jan 28 19:49:29 ird_ it runs Gameboy at full speed, GBA at reduced speed. Jan 28 19:49:33 ah Jan 28 19:49:39 some GBA are ok, if they're simple enough Jan 28 19:49:48 What's causing it to be so slow? Jan 28 19:49:57 ird_: its an emulator Jan 28 19:50:04 emulators "are slow"! Jan 28 19:50:07 But still.. Jan 28 19:50:12 no but still Jan 28 19:50:12 It's GBA :p Jan 28 19:50:14 that is what Jan 28 19:50:17 so what Jan 28 19:50:25 depeds on the quality of the emulator Jan 28 19:50:32 iSmite: funneh Jan 28 19:50:33 GBA is a couple 10 mhz arm7 iirc Jan 28 19:50:43 i've written an arm emulator before, it's not totally trivial Jan 28 19:51:02 unless you did a binary translator, then it's a different story Jan 28 19:51:18 geist: has anyone tried paravirtualizing arm? modify and run native on host arm? Jan 28 19:51:22 right Jan 28 19:51:39 PuffTheMagic: So this is as good as it's going to get then? Jan 28 19:51:45 i thought about fooling with it and i may do so if i get the time Jan 28 19:51:54 but i have a huge list of things i like to hack on in my free time Jan 28 19:51:54 ird_: unless someone ports some of the code to arm probably yes Jan 28 19:52:07 i mean Jan 28 19:52:09 At least I can play Pokemon! Jan 28 19:52:10 :p Jan 28 19:52:11 ird_: asm Jan 28 19:52:18 is what i meant Jan 28 19:52:27 What about making the screen bigger? Jan 28 19:52:30 hmmmmmm Jan 28 19:52:37 i just had an excellent idea for a new app Jan 28 19:52:40 ird_: thats up to the skin Jan 28 19:52:48 just got done checking out an omap4 dev kit .. looks very nice, but 0.4mm ball pitch is crazy for manufacturing and many many layers Jan 28 19:52:52 there is an app for iphone/ipod and i believe windows mobile called "signal" Jan 28 19:53:18 that allows you to control winamp/mediaplayer/audacious/etc running on another machine Jan 28 19:53:25 PuffTheMagic: I only ask because I have low vision (20/80 and no vision in the other eye) so it's kind of hard to see for me :p Jan 28 19:53:41 ird_: yeah use a different skin Jan 28 19:54:06 PuffTheMagic: is the default the only one included? Jan 28 19:54:17 idk Jan 28 19:54:26 ask zsoc and dtzWill Jan 28 19:54:48 PuffTheMagic: thanks. Jan 28 19:57:49 They should release a Katamari Damacy style game for WebOS.. now that would be cool. Jan 28 19:57:54 speaking of... Jan 28 19:58:13 I never played it on a console, but the idea seems perfect for mobile devices. Jan 28 20:00:11 destinal: ..? Jan 28 20:00:36 yeah i was gonna say Jan 28 20:00:39 kinda left us hangin Jan 28 20:01:15 just saying zsoc exists now Jan 28 20:01:29 you could ask him your question Jan 28 20:01:31 :) Jan 28 20:01:40 ah Jan 28 20:01:46 I thought you were talking about what I said before.. Jan 28 20:01:53 about Katamari Damacy.. Jan 28 20:01:54 :p Jan 28 20:02:09 zsocwerkin: are there any other skins of the vboy emulator? Jan 28 20:02:13 That have a bigger screen size. Jan 28 20:03:06 ah, that actually came after I sent my reply (for me anyway) Jan 28 20:03:16 evdo / wirc latency Jan 28 20:04:08 I remember playing that blog thing that was in Preware, and it gave me the thought. Jan 28 20:08:49 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:49 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:49 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:50 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:52 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:54 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:56 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:08:58 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:09:00 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 20:10:43 * lt83850 tips hat to #w-i Jan 28 20:12:01 looks like from the freenode blog we only have a couple more days to have to put up with this spam. Jan 28 20:12:48 freenode blog? spam? Jan 28 20:12:54 ircd-seven should stop at least the javascript stuff Jan 28 20:14:31 PuffTheMagic: the GNAA stuff. javascript-based clients sending HTTP POST's to ircd with the random names sending links to sites embedding shock images and pornography and the same javascript malware causing the person who clicked it to spread it further, etc Jan 28 20:14:58 lol Jan 28 20:15:23 From what I'm reading the migration from hyperion to ircd-seven is scheduled for Saturday and irc-seven will reject HTTP requests Jan 28 20:16:10 egaudet_work: !!!! Jan 28 20:21:26 what Jan 28 20:21:37 egaudet_work: Why the hell don't people READ. Jan 28 20:22:09 "will this update patches installed with WOSQI after a webos update?" Jan 28 20:22:14 how many times have we answered that? Jan 28 20:22:58 what's WQSQI? Jan 28 20:23:03 just kidding.. :) Jan 28 20:23:09 dBsooner: we answer once and let the users handle future repetitive questions Jan 28 20:23:47 egaudet_work: no.. we have answered that question at least 4 times in the thread so far. Jan 28 20:24:10 well I'm done Jan 28 20:24:23 lol Jan 28 20:24:23 I have a 2-3 day limit for new release repeat questions Jan 28 20:24:27 you can't be Jan 28 20:24:30 then I hand off back to user support Jan 28 20:24:32 its your thread Jan 28 20:24:48 and I will make sure post #1 contains relevant data Jan 28 20:24:56 and that's that Jan 28 20:25:05 AKA, if you're using WOSQI, get a real client Jan 28 20:25:29 easy there Jan 28 20:25:42 Don't go bashing Jason. ;) Jan 28 20:25:42 Sorry, I'm bitter over lack of deps support :P Jan 28 20:25:49 I'm not bashing him Jan 28 20:25:52 It doesn't support deps? Jan 28 20:25:55 just his client Jan 28 20:26:17 dBsooner: right Jan 28 20:26:23 tisk tisk tisk Jan 28 20:26:36 I suppose I should dl WOSQI for once. Jan 28 20:26:40 and actually look at it. Jan 28 20:26:42 it doesn't support deps and it removes packages when prerm fails Jan 28 20:26:42 I have never seen it. Jan 28 20:27:03 but yet THEMES are higher priority Jan 28 20:27:04 egaudet_work: I thought he turnd that off? Jan 28 20:27:06 his words Jan 28 20:27:17 he turned off ASKING whether to run postinst/prerm Jan 28 20:27:25 oh lord Jan 28 20:27:32 but users keep reporting prerm errors and package being removed... it's their workaround for old APT errors on remove Jan 28 20:27:52 I guess I could dl it. Jan 28 20:28:20 Why can't people realize Preware is far superior? Jan 28 20:29:44 Jason does a lot for the users, and takes on a lot of tasks. Just sometimes he prioritizes in a way that I disagree with Jan 28 20:31:05 Themes FTW. Jan 28 20:31:20 WHy people spend so much time themeing an OS that is not designed to be themed is beyond me. Jan 28 20:31:47 dBsooner: I don't understand why some people install ground effects on Honda Civics either Jan 28 20:31:57 Or hood scoops? Jan 28 20:32:05 or rear spoilers Jan 28 20:32:36 rear spoiler = creates down force to keep rear end firmly gripping the road at high speeds. Jan 28 20:33:01 dBsooner: it is designed to be themed Jan 28 20:33:08 PuffTheMagic: How? Jan 28 20:33:10 but everyone is doing it wrong Jan 28 20:33:21 PuffTheMagic: If it were designed, there would be docs on it. Jan 28 20:33:28 no Jan 28 20:33:31 dBsooner: not necessarily true Jan 28 20:33:32 Just like every other OS imaginable. Jan 28 20:33:35 their docs are so behind Jan 28 20:33:46 there "should" not would. Jan 28 20:33:48 My bad. Jan 28 20:33:53 dBsooner: it already has a light/dark theme Jan 28 20:33:56 which is css Jan 28 20:33:59 palm designs a lot of things that they don't document Jan 28 20:34:07 that could be extended Jan 28 20:34:15 to use css to modify everything Jan 28 20:34:21 exactly Jan 28 20:34:24 and keep their OWN images Jan 28 20:34:33 in their OWN themes/images dir Jan 28 20:34:36 PuffTheMagic: exactly Jan 28 20:34:38 yeah, CSS was always the way to go Jan 28 20:34:44 I've touted this from day one Jan 28 20:34:45 replacing stock images = dumb Jan 28 20:34:46 we should make a spec for this Jan 28 20:35:07 I love the folk, "How do I get back to the stock theme" Jan 28 20:35:12 lol.. Suckers. Jan 28 20:35:14 but CSS requires patches, and we need to come up with a security blanket for themes to patch Jan 28 20:35:17 destinal: this needs to go on the "Programming wile intoxicated" wiki ;) Jan 28 20:35:25 aye Jan 28 20:35:27 PWI projects Jan 28 20:35:39 PWI is definitely the way to do themes. Jan 28 20:36:47 hi Jan 28 20:37:20 egaudet_work: i have an idea for that Jan 28 20:38:30 how can i access system files on my pre? i edited /etc/passwd and now i don't have a login shell for my terminal any more. is ist possible to restore it anyhow? Jan 28 20:38:55 dBsooner: it's a little silly to keep the rear jammed to the ground when the car is front wheel drive Jan 28 20:39:00 it aint gonna oversteer Jan 28 20:39:17 PuffTheMagic: what's your idea? Putting themes and patching into AUPT will be easy. The worry is the security layer from user to preware Jan 28 20:39:47 i themed mine manually, if we are talking about the pre, backed each icon up indivudually Jan 28 20:39:49 nm Jan 28 20:40:04 egaudet_work: i wasnt thinking about patches Jan 28 20:40:32 PuffTheMagic: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/PWI_Projects :P Jan 28 20:41:21 egaudet_work: well only 1 "patch", which adds the "theme framework", and i imagine a helper C service, and i was thinking themes could be installed from usb or preware Jan 28 20:42:01 geist: You know.. it's so the rear wheels follow properly. Jan 28 20:42:31 PuffTheMagic: what would that solve? Jan 28 20:42:39 I REALLY think the images should NOT replace the stock ones. Jan 28 20:42:51 They should be kept in their own directories with css reference to them. Jan 28 20:42:57 The "theme framework" is the compilation of all global Palm css that needs to be patched/ovewritten at the framework level Jan 28 20:42:58 if at all possible., Jan 28 20:43:06 dBsooner: thats what im saying Jan 28 20:43:09 along with js and html Jan 28 20:43:14 with css it should be easy Jan 28 20:43:19 egaudet_work: right Jan 28 20:43:31 So a service that patches, when we already have patches makes no sense to me Jan 28 20:43:47 egaudet_work: no the service isnt to patch Jan 28 20:43:49 PuffTheMagic: I know. I just wonder about any palm code for palm apps that don't use CSS for the image location. Where the image location is hard coded in the app code. Jan 28 20:44:00 * loot_ shakes fist at this crappy raid controller Jan 28 20:44:00 Make your CSS modifications, create the patch and get it into AUPT all very easy with current stuff Jan 28 20:44:08 ugh Jan 28 20:44:17 intel's ich10 integrated raid controller is worthless Jan 28 20:44:25 dbsooner i think that is how winterboard works for iphone, icons are kept in different dir and link to the originals, so with iphone we can theme by whacking one folder in /library/themes Jan 28 20:44:31 egaudet_work: i was thinking of a way "themes" didnt do any patching Jan 28 20:44:46 PuffTheMagic: how exactly? Jan 28 20:45:05 To do that wouldn't you have to close off the creativity of all CSS modifications? Jan 28 20:45:18 no Jan 28 20:45:30 or just make one patch that includes a known theme CSS file that can overwite all stock css Jan 28 20:46:04 almost like i did with vkb css (i patched global.css to include my custom css file, although I don't overwrite anything) Jan 28 20:46:23 the new themes should not have to patch anything Jan 28 20:47:31 We need someone willing to manage this Jan 28 20:48:04 well thats why this is on the PWI list Jan 28 20:48:09 libpdl updates, pretty much everything is mapped out at least at a basic level now Jan 28 20:48:20 patch the framework to look in THEMES_DIR/ for icon.png before defaulting to the real app path... although is that handled from somewhere we can patch or is it in luna Jan 28 20:48:34 yes that is how iphone themes work Jan 28 20:48:37 exactly Jan 28 20:49:02 egaudet_work: patch Jan 28 20:49:15 mostlikely Jan 28 20:49:47 egaudet_work: i was thinking of a service that managed that "THEMES_DIR" Jan 28 20:50:02 so that apps could be installed from usb or preware Jan 28 20:50:18 and maybe do signature stuff Jan 28 20:50:25 signing Jan 28 20:50:27 i mean Jan 28 20:51:29 the service would just basically be moving things around in that dir Jan 28 20:51:31 mdklein_: nice progress Jan 28 20:51:47 egaudet_work i was thinkg symlinking Jan 28 20:52:02 egaudet_work: it could use inotify to monitor for new themes Jan 28 20:52:06 i love inotify Jan 28 20:52:07 :D Jan 28 20:52:09 active_theme -> some_theme Jan 28 20:52:11 mdklein_: did you already say what you were using for this? nm? trial and error? Jan 28 20:52:22 no need for inotify Jan 28 20:52:42 egaudet_work: yeah we do Jan 28 20:52:46 Present PuffTheMagic with any problem and the solution probably involves a service and inotify though :P Jan 28 20:52:58 lol Jan 28 20:53:01 :D Jan 28 20:53:05 PuffTheMagic: inotify solves what/ Jan 28 20:53:26 destinal: I was just curious what it all did, now that I'm done, I'll move on to another undocumented library :-p Jan 28 20:53:28 the service would read the THEMES_DIR for existing themes each time the "theme app" was opened/requested it Jan 28 20:53:39 unless you want the themes app to dynamically refresh Jan 28 20:53:39 mdklein_: napp Jan 28 20:54:12 mdklein_: /usr/lib/libnapp.so Jan 28 20:54:15 and I used a combination of strings, objdump, and trial/error w/gdb Jan 28 20:54:34 egaudet_work: that wasnt exactly what i was thinking Jan 28 20:54:35 mdklein_: should be the next I think Jan 28 20:55:07 PuffTheMagic: you mean to rescan when theme was changed/installed? Jan 28 20:55:49 mdklein_: you did this on the ARM versions? I'm a lot more familiar with x86 ASM and will probably look at the emulator versions Jan 28 20:55:59 yeah, I did arm Jan 28 20:56:49 PuffTheMagic: let's come up with a hypothetical interface of sorts. /media/internal/THEMES_DIR/active_theme -> some_theme Jan 28 20:57:00 some_theme/theme.css Jan 28 20:57:09 no hold on Jan 28 20:57:16 im like 5 questons behind Jan 28 20:57:29 some_theme//icon.png, some_theme//icon.png etc... Jan 28 20:57:39 ctrl-S me Jan 28 20:59:20 i assume that you agree we would have to make a mojo app that is able to change the theme Jan 28 20:59:30 yep Jan 28 20:59:32 and it should be aware of all possible themes Jan 28 20:59:38 yep Jan 28 21:00:11 so to keep the mojo app simple it would make sense that all themes were subdirectories of some directory Jan 28 21:00:19 yep Jan 28 21:00:27 ird: your question is odd. did you read the thread/wiki? Jan 28 21:01:47 so 1 think that i imagined this service doing is using maintaining symlinks of theme directories in that main theme dir Jan 28 21:02:00 remove using Jan 28 21:03:05 the "active" theme could be a symlink in that main dir to a them dir Jan 28 21:03:10 and could be "default" Jan 28 21:03:12 or something Jan 28 21:03:13 right Jan 28 21:03:15 or active Jan 28 21:03:32 we are on the same page so far completely Jan 28 21:04:00 mdklein_: pardon my ignorance, is there a wiki or a doc outlining your libpdl discoveries? I've only seen set orientation in action Jan 28 21:04:16 zsocwerkin: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/LibPDL_Research Jan 28 21:04:46 so if we have themes in /media/cryptofs/..../ and/or in /media/internal/themes/ Jan 28 21:04:55 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/LibPDL_Research Jan 28 21:05:01 and new ones could possible appear at any time Jan 28 21:05:15 tyvm Jan 28 21:05:17 inotify could detect when new themes are installed Jan 28 21:05:32 so that it does not have to poll them or manually refresh Jan 28 21:05:52 the services looks manually once when it starts Jan 28 21:06:02 and then updates only on an inotify event Jan 28 21:06:09 very efficient Jan 28 21:06:14 PuffTheMagic: very not efficient Jan 28 21:06:18 in all cases Jan 28 21:06:23 it's also very unecessary Jan 28 21:06:34 there aren't going to be hundreds of themes installed Jan 28 21:06:47 inotify would notify when you add, remove, add, remove and never change Jan 28 21:06:49 etc... Jan 28 21:06:58 what? Jan 28 21:07:03 I can see the benefits but also think it's probably unncessary Jan 28 21:07:17 manually reading when the "theme app" is opened or refreshed is fine Jan 28 21:07:25 ird: ping Jan 28 21:07:43 I add theme A, theme B, remove theme A, remove theme B and then open theme app PuffTheMagic Jan 28 21:07:48 its dead simple and this way the gui never has to tell the service to update Jan 28 21:08:04 cause the service is always just uptodate Jan 28 21:08:06 ird: see wiki for changing skins, including disabling touch screens, and going back to portrait orientation. http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:VBA Jan 28 21:08:33 btw no cryptofs Jan 28 21:08:44 dtzWill: I just found that, I should know by now that everything that ever comes from this place is in the wiki. Jan 28 21:08:45 :D Jan 28 21:08:52 ird: additionally, almost all the emulated instructions are done with arm assembler--it's still emulating not any dynarec/etc Jan 28 21:08:55 users need/want to be able to copy a theme over from USB mode Jan 28 21:09:22 PuffTheMagic: I think we got a foolproof OTA theme capabilities IN THEORY. Now we have to figure out the logistics Jan 28 21:09:36 ird: so regarding improving performance, it's a WIP for sure, but a good chunk is already optimized given the current design decisions i've inherited from VBA's x86 version Jan 28 21:09:53 is it somehow possible to access systemfiles in usb mode? do i need palms sdk? Jan 28 21:09:56 and if you theme an app cat app for instance, you can remove, install and update it as much as you want and never effect your theme icon :P Jan 28 21:10:25 im not following Jan 28 21:10:42 mdklein_: excellent stuff re: libpdl research, ty for the work :D Jan 28 21:10:51 sui: FTP Jan 28 21:10:54 FOLLOW THIS: THEMES ARE THE DEVIL! Jan 28 21:10:58 not following what PuffTheMagic ? Jan 28 21:11:00 sui: SFTP* Jan 28 21:11:00 i need to get that into git if its not already Jan 28 21:11:06 dBsooner: hush we just solved the crisis Jan 28 21:11:08 THEMES = BAD Jan 28 21:11:11 egaudet_work: that last thing u said Jan 28 21:11:12 No Jan 28 21:11:15 themes can go away Jan 28 21:11:21 palm's UI is snazzy Jan 28 21:11:35 chuqui Jan 28 21:11:47 PuffTheMagic: currently themeing an app's icon that is from the app catalog (overwiting an app's icon.png) will break when you remove/reinstall or update the app Jan 28 21:12:06 ird: i don't have a login shell on my pre any more. i thought i can set bash as login shell as i like it on any other linux box ... Jan 28 21:12:07 ewwww Jan 28 21:12:10 dBsooner: this is going to quadruplize our servers Jan 28 21:12:14 you would allow themeing other apps icons Jan 28 21:12:18 load on server Jan 28 21:12:19 that is such a bad idea Jan 28 21:12:19 sui: I missed that part :p my bad. Jan 28 21:12:29 sui: is developer mode on? Jan 28 21:12:33 PuffTheMagic: how is that a bad idea lol Jan 28 21:12:35 egaudet_work: PRECISELY why I say THEMES GO AWAY. Jan 28 21:12:36 ird: yes, it is Jan 28 21:12:45 sui: WebOS Quick Install can send/recieve files. Jan 28 21:12:56 er Jan 28 21:13:01 receive Jan 28 21:13:02 SFTP = better than WOSQI send/receive Jan 28 21:13:06 ird: also system files like /etc/passwd? Jan 28 21:13:12 sui: yes Jan 28 21:13:13 novacom command line = better than you Jan 28 21:13:19 s/= better than/>/ Jan 28 21:13:20 dBsooner meant: SFTP > WOSQI send/receive Jan 28 21:13:21 dBsooner: i can't log on my pre any more Jan 28 21:13:25 git diff -b | novacom put file:///var/my.patch :D Jan 28 21:13:47 PuffTheMagic: what's so bad about themeing an apps icons? Jan 28 21:14:00 sui: does novaterm not work either? Jan 28 21:14:08 destinal: most of the libpdl stuff just gets passed along to libnapp calls eventually, I'm not sure if there's much to be gained by accessing the library directly... hrm Jan 28 21:14:16 i did not try novaterm. Jan 28 21:14:23 i'll have a look Jan 28 21:14:30 * zsocwerkin has used novacom get/put over scp out of pure lazyness too many times Jan 28 21:14:57 mdklein_: I don't know, I think there's a lot more in napp Jan 28 21:15:25 (that pdl doesn't wrap / provide) Jan 28 21:15:47 egaudet_work: cause u have the issues u just described, i think themes shoudl only be touching the main interface and leave "other apps" alone Jan 28 21:16:09 PuffTheMagic: the issue I just described only exists in the CURRENT scheme, in this new scheme it doesn't Jan 28 21:16:15 i fire up my VM Jan 28 21:16:24 currently they REPLACE the apps icon.png, obviously on reinstall the apps icon.png is back Jan 28 21:16:50 in this scheme we just discussed, the icon.png would be taken from /media/internal/themes//icon.png first, so reinstalling the app would not effect that at all Jan 28 21:17:06 We solve 99% of all theming problems if we can do this Jan 28 21:18:31 PuffTheMagic: I'm starting this investigation tonight! Jan 28 21:18:44 lol Jan 28 21:20:27 Hey all, quick question. I remember reading a while back about a project to get the pre to work on wifi only (IE not to need a cell phone plan) did that ever happen? Jan 28 21:21:13 well, you can use metadoctor to not need activation with a cell network. of course, it's not a phone at that point Jan 28 21:21:20 if you don't use a carrier Jan 28 21:22:02 It can be a good PDA or developer device Jan 28 21:22:14 Right, I have an old SERO plan ($30) that can't use the pre. But I want to dev for it. Jan 28 21:22:42 I assume I can access the net / apps / everything except phone via wifi? Or is that tired into the data service plan at some point? Jan 28 21:23:07 nope Jan 28 21:23:11 you guys are great! file transfer in WOSQI did it Jan 28 21:23:14 (2nd question) Jan 28 21:23:41 tacroy: yeah it works fine as a mobile device on wifi Jan 28 21:23:49 you can use usbnet also Jan 28 21:24:13 So apps and what not are billed to a seperate palm based credit card and not to a phone plan or anything (like the old vcast style stuff) Jan 28 21:24:20 gasp.. rwhitby's here Jan 28 21:24:21 shh Jan 28 21:24:28 usbnet? Jan 28 21:24:47 tacroy: palm apps are billed to paypal account Jan 28 21:24:57 or card you give to palm in teh app catalog Jan 28 21:25:15 basically you can do everything on the device except phone Jan 28 21:25:53 isn't the palm catalog inaccessible though? Jan 28 21:26:30 not that a developer should need that so much Jan 28 21:26:36 no, its accessible Jan 28 21:26:38 just fine. Jan 28 21:26:40 I know it has a aGPS. Typically those require a data connection. Would I be able to start gps in WIFI then drive around and keep GPS as long as I don't stop GPS? Jan 28 21:26:46 It has nothing to do with your phone being active. Jan 28 21:27:05 ask rwhitby.. he used a CDMA pre for a long time in AU. He had AC access. Jan 28 21:27:06 It uses assisted GPS, though it may work (just slower) without a carrier? Jan 28 21:27:13 At least I thought he did. I KNOW updates worked. Jan 28 21:27:23 dBsooner: he had to make changes though Jan 28 21:27:29 aGPS won't work without a carrier Jan 28 21:27:35 aGPS uses data Jan 28 21:27:47 I mean will it fall back to plain GPS? Jan 28 21:27:51 yes Jan 28 21:28:00 GPS is GPS.. aGPS is just assisted Jan 28 21:28:03 I don't think app catalog will work Jan 28 21:28:09 the pre's GPS chip is /capable/ of all the typical modes of GPS, including completely independent tracking. However, I think Palm set it to only use aGPS as the default. Jan 28 21:28:10 without a palm profile created on a real device Jan 28 21:28:17 if the assitant isn't there, it just uses GPS.. though on cloudy days and such, good luck. Jan 28 21:28:19 there was a thread on precentral on how to enable full-blown GPS on the Pre Jan 28 21:28:58 VincentLaw: that would be dumb if Palm did that. Jan 28 21:29:14 VincentLaw: because aGPS requires an active cellular connection for data. Jan 28 21:29:21 what if I am roaming? Jan 28 21:29:25 Yeah, I was reading that thread the other day. Linked to a larger thread where they appeared to argue for 20 pages Jan 28 21:29:37 it works on roaming, but I don't think it works without cell coverage, dBsooner Jan 28 21:29:53 I can almost assure you they would stricken their GPS chip to aGPS only. Jan 28 21:30:06 That's like buying a ferrari and not taking the keys. Jan 28 21:30:16 I can't get a GPS fix right now with phone and wifi off Jan 28 21:30:27 VincentLaw: outside? Jan 28 21:30:36 clear sky day, doesn't matter. Jan 28 21:30:51 works fine with only wifi, no cell data Jan 28 21:31:15 I bet its not the chip then. I bet its how the OS reports the chips data. Jan 28 21:31:29 if you enable direct talking to the chip I bet you can read the gps coords. Jan 28 21:31:29 no, they set the chip's firmware to just do aGPS Jan 28 21:31:38 I am pretty sure I read that the Pre is standalone-GPS capable (a device capable of standalone GPS can identify and download the ephemeris data necessary for computing GPS locations). aGPS means that (in the case of phones) the network sends some/all of the current ephemeris data to the phone Jan 28 21:32:13 aGPS allows for much faster location fixes -- and it can be done with less hardware, too. Jan 28 21:32:37 the chip on the pre is capable, and it works if you change the firmware settings, but it's not set my default for anything other than agps Jan 28 21:32:40 ... but that the Pre is configured for aGPS-only Jan 28 21:33:05 yeah Jan 28 21:33:12 there's a guide on precentral someone made Jan 28 21:33:13 on how to change that Jan 28 21:33:23 you can make it use just about any mode you want, really, including standalone Jan 28 21:33:24 Could someone point me to the guide on using the pre without a phone plan? Jan 28 21:33:30 so looks like cryptofs can be disabled with; mv /usr/bin/mountcfs /usr/bin/mountcfs.disabled; reboot -- obviously you'll want to do this on a clean / newly wiped device or back up your cryptofs and restore after reboot or unmount Jan 28 21:33:35 Well that just proves I shouldn't assume things. Because that is aboslutely insane they would restrict it. Jan 28 21:33:55 Granted standalone wouldn't be able to pull maps right? Jan 28 21:34:10 unless over wifi, does it cache maps for travel? Jan 28 21:34:14 okay I'm going to save face here, but it seems it will do standalone Jan 28 21:34:19 also on a pre / pixi you'll probably want a bindmount to put /media/cryptofs into /media/internal/cryptofs or whatever Jan 28 21:34:22 by default, actually Jan 28 21:34:28 cause I have phone and wifi off and finally got a signal Jan 28 21:34:32 it got a fix Jan 28 21:34:44 :) Jan 28 21:34:45 of course now all you need is an app that has downloaded maps :p Jan 28 21:34:54 yeah, that's the trickier part. Jan 28 21:35:09 Great, you can get the fix.. But where's it going to give that fix. Jan 28 21:35:10 heh, nice. Jan 28 21:35:19 you can get most of the gps data by dialing ##GPS# btw Jan 28 21:35:21 dBsooner: to an SDL ported linux GPS app Jan 28 21:35:23 or something Jan 28 21:35:33 Aye. Jan 28 21:35:42 google maps where you follow the path to pre-cache maps? Jan 28 21:36:04 maps don't stay cached very well in google maps Jan 28 21:36:11 and god help you if you accidentally zoom in/out Jan 28 21:36:19 heh, this is true. Jan 28 21:36:59 I think there's an app on preware already that uses openstreetmap or something, with the ability to use downloaded maps Jan 28 21:38:25 Could someone point me to the guide to use the phone without a cell plan, im not finding it in the wiki Jan 28 21:38:55 tacroy: search for metadoctor Jan 28 21:39:09 to bypass activation and enable firstuse app is what you as minimum i think Jan 28 21:39:28 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:MetaDoctor Jan 28 21:40:31 Ah, thanks. Jan 28 21:40:57 http://lmgtfy.com/?=metadoctor Jan 28 21:41:06 Hm....very end of that guide says that some have been able to get it to work on no-supported networks. Any chance of getting connection to non-compatable sprint plans? Jan 28 21:41:06 Just sayin. Jan 28 21:41:32 tacroy: Doubtful. You would have to have the ESN active on your account in the billing system. Jan 28 21:41:44 otherwise the Sprint network would deny you access for voice. Jan 28 21:41:45 Heh, I didn't know that "metadoctor" was what I was looking for. I searched "Pre no Service plan" "Pre without contract" "pre wifi only" Jan 28 21:42:02 just saying :) Jan 28 21:42:08 I just wanted to share my link Jan 28 21:42:14 I love lmgtfy :) Jan 28 21:42:19 I love lmgtfy Jan 28 21:42:29 Use it at work all the time. It's great. Jan 28 21:42:52 tacroy: if you had searched "bypass activation" you would have gotten an old page but it has a link to metadoctor on the top Jan 28 21:43:10 gotcha. Thanks. Jan 28 21:43:39 So do we have any inside if once flash 10.1 is released if they will allow flash apps in the store? Jan 28 21:44:40 tacroy: no idea. I would imagine it's intended mostly for web apps to embed flash but local would be possible I suppose. coupled with a second socket listening plugin it might even be useful I guess Jan 28 21:44:53 I'm guessing not catalog approved but who knows Jan 28 21:45:26 Seems like it would be a good counter to apples flash cs5 -> oC compiler Jan 28 21:46:31 Well its a browser plugin Jan 28 21:46:34 and Luna is a browser. Jan 28 21:46:44 so I wonder if it would just flash natively? Jan 28 21:46:51 in a Luna Crad. Jan 28 21:46:59 that would be cool Jan 28 21:47:25 dBsooner: maybe, but would it be useful without another plugin to talk to, to do native stuff. Jan 28 21:47:28 Thats what I was hoping. Specifically if they open the device API's to the flash plugin. Jan 28 21:47:33 more useful than a web app without it, I mean Jan 28 21:47:36 flash apps are 99% possible. up to palm if they want to go there Jan 28 21:48:02 Flash can use external interface to call native javascript (in html) i assume it could do as much here. Jan 28 21:48:14 i agree with zsocwerkin... It's one of those areas it will probably take a while to open up an API system for it. Jan 28 21:48:20 in fact, I believe when embedded flash is 'double clicked' it goes 'fullscreen', which I think dumps the rest of the page Jan 28 21:48:29 Because it would be relying on 3rd party software, something not native to webOS. Jan 28 21:48:45 zsocwerkin: sure but how is it better than a web-based flash plugin? Jan 28 21:49:00 err putting your app on a web page and using native flash plugin to run it Jan 28 21:49:01 It would be an instant solution to the "not enough apps" problem, though Jan 28 21:49:29 if it can write to the DOM, then maybe that would be the answer Jan 28 21:49:29 idontwan2know: there already is an instant solution Jan 28 21:49:32 its called BHL Jan 28 21:49:34 it's not? vector apps are fun lol Jan 28 21:49:39 Exactly. Also, the ability to monitize would be a huge encourager to the hundreds of thousands of flash developers Jan 28 21:50:11 BHL? Jan 28 21:50:13 dBsooner: LOL Jan 28 21:50:17 Bright House Labs Jan 28 21:50:18 BrightHouse Labs Jan 28 21:50:23 or is it brighthouse Jan 28 21:51:00 heh Jan 28 21:52:09 the only way you are going to get a pre on a non supported sprint plan is by commiting a federal felony Jan 28 21:52:20 i.e. changing the esn to the esn of a phone that is not a pre Jan 28 21:52:36 even if its an esn of a phone you own, its still a felony :) Jan 28 21:52:37 hm....not quite into felony's Jan 28 21:53:08 what I did was get them to give me a ED3000 3 line plan for a little over $100 :) Jan 28 21:53:11 there's 2 classes of plugins too, browserplugins and browserserverplugins... browserserverplugins are plugins for the browser "application"... Jan 28 21:53:50 spotter- oh yeah? Jan 28 21:54:09 they messed up my plan Jan 28 21:54:18 htey fixed it by giving me a close to ED plan for the same price Jan 28 21:56:20 Ah. Well, I can hope. Jan 28 22:09:52 spotter: really, even to a phone you own? that sucks. Jan 28 22:10:27 this is why SIM cards do a lot for user freedom Jan 28 22:10:40 to some extent Jan 28 22:10:50 hi Jan 28 22:10:51 but service plans are also more expensive Jan 28 22:11:06 also, I know of no case of sprint cancelling a persons service for a legit grandfathered plan Jan 28 22:11:13 I know AT&T has done it on numerous occasions Jan 28 22:12:10 could someone help me with java? I've got a .jar which contains a commandline application I'd like to test on the palm (if it runs) but the java binary on the palm doesn't understand the -jar commandline option Jan 28 22:13:47 debilater: look at the javahy shell script .. Jan 28 22:13:55 you can add jar files to the classpath Jan 28 22:14:09 and then call out the thing you want to run Jan 28 22:15:55 ah, so I need to know the concrete class name Jan 28 22:17:56 you can get that from the manifest file in the jar Jan 28 22:18:56 ok Jan 28 22:19:25 * rwong still has grandfathered AT&T from 2002 ;) Jan 28 22:20:03 the flexibility of SIM cards is nice, but I used my first phone for 6 years and never broke it Jan 28 22:20:20 so being stuck to 1 phone on Sprint shouldn't be a problem Jan 28 22:20:38 rwong: it's not about that, it's about the ability of the carrier to tell you what device you can or cannot use Jan 28 22:20:44 which IMO seems wrong Jan 28 22:21:12 yeah, that is wrong to me as well. Jan 28 22:22:58 how is it wrong? it's clearly a datacentric device Jan 28 22:23:26 it would be wrong to let a consumer use a webos device on a plan with pay per use data and have a zillion dollae bill Jan 28 22:25:38 that is wrong as well Jan 28 22:26:00 rwong: let me guess, as are contracts and device subsidation? Jan 28 22:26:07 lol Jan 28 22:26:14 hey, i'm not the one that started this ;) Jan 28 22:29:13 zsocwerkin: I disagree with you the moment you say it is wrong to LET someone Jan 28 22:29:27 if I want to pay and have a bill, maybe I have my own reason Jan 28 22:29:40 maybe I want to blow a zillion dollars :P Jan 28 22:30:09 I got an original model iphone on a pay as you go plan (of course it had unlimited data) Jan 28 22:30:33 destinal: the point is people are stupid. part of sprints bad rap is their overage issues in the past Jan 28 22:31:16 zsocwerkin: sure but that's no reason not to let your customer (I hate the word "consumer" based on what it implies) decide what device they connect to your network on the plan they pay for Jan 28 22:32:15 destinal: do you want sprint to gain or lose business? they have an obligation to their shareholders to make 'capitolismistic' decisions Jan 28 22:32:36 america != the rest of the world Jan 28 22:32:36 bpadalino|work: Jan 28 22:32:51 zsocwerkin: it's clearly in their interest to lock me down, but it's clearly in my interest not to be locked down. I think more power should be in the hands of the customer Jan 28 22:33:27 bpadalino|work: ok, that works so far, but now it complains about missing javax stuff: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax/xml/parsers/SAXParserFactory, do I have to install the javax jars from a jre manually then? Jan 28 22:34:00 destinal: right, but you live in a socialist nation, you should be surprised by the amount of freedom you have already Jan 28 22:34:15 rwhitby for instance has no official carrier of the pre near Adelaide, Australia where he lives. With GSM and SIM cards, no problem. I bought an Android Developer Phone 1 (unlocked G1 for developers) and used my iPhone SIM in it and continued on that pay as you go plan Jan 28 22:34:39 if I had to rely on my carrier to approve my phone, I never could have used the device of my choice Jan 28 22:35:38 destinal: att forces you into the same data requirements with smartphones Jan 28 22:35:57 zsocwerkin: ? Jan 28 22:36:47 destinal: you seem to be arguing the necessity of having unlimited data? every american carrier is the same. smartphone = unlimited data plan or feature Jan 28 22:37:18 zsocwerkin: I'm arguing the necessity of the user being able to switch their plan to whatever phone they want without needing to get approval from carrier Jan 28 22:37:30 like I did with iphone -> adp1 (which they'd never heard of) Jan 28 22:37:42 destinal but the cdma/gsm/band variations/ problems don't go away.... Jan 28 22:38:11 Rick_work: what problems do you mean? Jan 28 22:38:41 I have a cdma pre. I -can't- use it outside the US and a few small pockets elsewhere. Jan 28 22:39:02 att data bands are different than Euro data bands for 3g Jan 28 22:39:05 etc etc etc Jan 28 22:39:07 true Jan 28 22:39:26 destinal: the only difference there is they _cant stop you_, they could if they would Jan 28 22:39:28 unlocked phone doesn't help Jan 28 22:39:59 destinal: they can lock the network to approved phones only. Jan 28 22:40:00 Rick_work: if someone makes an unlocked phone that uses the bands you have though, you should at least be able to buy it and plug in and keep going without the carrier having to care that you use a different phone Jan 28 22:40:11 kk Jan 28 22:40:18 AT&T seems to be ok that way Jan 28 22:40:40 att cares what sim you have not what phone. CDMA carriers don't HAVE sims. Jan 28 22:40:50 right, which is unfortunate Jan 28 22:41:07 get a time-travel machine. Nothing to be done now. Jan 28 22:41:37 well, until we go all-IP Jan 28 22:41:40 destinal: cdma is a dead technology. most telcos world-wide that did use it have moved to wcdma (3g) now Jan 28 22:42:38 a pure IP network that ran everything on open standards would be the ultimate non-lock-in system Jan 28 22:42:48 which is why I'm sure sprint / verizon will fight it Jan 28 22:43:56 yes Jan 28 22:44:00 damn Jan 28 22:44:10 but for interoperability most telcos have gone for 3g now Jan 28 22:44:19 very few stuck with other techs like evdo Jan 28 22:44:39 korea is cdma for "2g" but 3g is.. wcdma Jan 28 22:44:44 japan - similar Jan 28 22:44:58 all 3g tech is wcdma (except for au) Jan 28 22:45:42 * Rick_work off to home. Jan 28 22:45:43 australia had a cmda network oncce upon a time... it's been dismantled now Jan 28 22:45:44 bbl Jan 28 22:45:50 etc. etc. Jan 28 23:07:09 Hello Jan 28 23:07:31 I'm having a slight issue with my Pre Jan 28 23:07:40 Anyone willing to help me troubleshoot? Jan 28 23:07:48 LTE has promise Jan 28 23:07:57 ~ask Jan 28 23:07:58 Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. Jan 28 23:08:18 what the bot said ;) Jan 28 23:08:23 Got it haha Jan 28 23:08:28 Gimmie a sec Jan 28 23:11:13 So I was messing around attempting to get the Virtual Keyboard to work on my Pre... and after a routine reboot of my Pre WOSQI and Preware both show that I have no applications nor patches installed, which I obviously do because they are all there and working properly. If I go to device info and look at my software list it shows all my apps there. Jan 28 23:12:06 The Pre is working just fine other than the fact that Preware and WOSQI can't see that anything is installed except for Lsdiff GNU patch, and Package manager service Jan 28 23:13:15 TheInvsbleMan: I'm not the expert, but sounds like you were using 2 programs that access ipkg at once (ie: preware and wosqi, or app catalog and wosqi) Jan 28 23:13:25 question for the room, what would you recommend for a good password keeper on my pre Jan 28 23:14:30 text file with rot26 encoded data Jan 28 23:14:34 * dBsooner got off work early because of the weather. Jan 28 23:14:42 zsocwerkin: I have done that before and had no issues, I don't believe I was doing that at the time. Could this have caused the probelm? If so, how could I fix it? Jan 28 23:18:17 what's the weather like there ? Jan 28 23:19:03 bad Jan 28 23:19:09 expecting an inch of ice Jan 28 23:19:17 then another 4-8 inches of snow tomorrow Jan 28 23:19:19 heh, Its pretty bad here already Jan 28 23:19:36 My electricity has already flickered a couple times. Jan 28 23:19:40 the highway with the snow and the wind was fun, like the twilight zone Jan 28 23:19:40 And we are underground electric. Jan 28 23:19:49 This isn't snow. Jan 28 23:19:50 This is ice. Jan 28 23:19:53 MUCH worse. Jan 28 23:19:58 You can drive on snow. Jan 28 23:20:06 And snow doesn't weigh down power lines. Jan 28 23:20:32 TheInvsbleMan, you can try ERU Jan 28 23:20:35 we had a sweet ice storm last week, I had to chisel out my car, it was like I had a batmobile shield on it... Jan 28 23:20:49 it's actually snice Jan 28 23:21:11 snice = not fun Jan 28 23:21:20 but better than freezing rain which is what we have. Jan 28 23:21:53 egaudet, that's the emergency reconstruction utility, right? Jan 28 23:21:55 when the wind blows heavy snow towards you on the highway it creates an optical illusion :P Jan 28 23:21:57 yea Jan 28 23:22:33 they closed the lab in december purely for a huuuge snowstorm... they almost never do that.. aaannyway time to start my 3 day weekend... later Jan 28 23:23:06 Do I just install that via WOSQI? Jan 28 23:23:34 preware Jan 28 23:23:41 why don't people like preware Jan 28 23:23:53 I do like Preware... I use both Jan 28 23:23:53 http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=OKZ060&warncounty=OKC143&firewxzone=OKZ060&local_place1=Broken+Arrow+OK&product1=Winter+Storm+Warning Jan 28 23:24:23 WOSQI = for those that like computers Jan 28 23:24:57 yea there was a nice icestorm around here last year, knocked people's power out for over a week in many cases Jan 28 23:24:58 I use both WOSQI and Preware, depends what I'm doing Jan 28 23:25:11 What does WOSQI do that Preware can't? Jan 28 23:25:13 Just wondering. Jan 28 23:25:20 * dBsooner has never used WOSQI. Jan 28 23:25:30 easily installs ipks that aren't in preware feeds Jan 28 23:25:41 They do the same things. It's just sometimes easier when I am multi-tasking on my laptop to use WOSQI Jan 28 23:25:43 does a few patches Jan 28 23:26:02 There is a reason why those patches aren't in Preware btw. Jan 28 23:26:29 and as far as installs ipk's easily, I can do that via command line just as fast. Jan 28 23:26:31 uh, why Jan 28 23:26:37 Of course just as I was about to run ERU my gf called haha now I have to wait to fix my phone grrr Jan 28 23:27:13 The main ones that are in WOSQI but not Preware are the binary patches. And binary patching is not secure/safe for the end user. Jan 28 23:27:20 So we decided to not allow binary patching at this time. Jan 28 23:27:29 Because you can't tell what exactly is being done to your phone. Jan 28 23:27:33 my left glute hurts so bad Jan 28 23:27:50 dBsooner: which binary patches? Jan 28 23:28:03 destinal: iPhone user agent Jan 28 23:28:06 that's one of them Jan 28 23:28:12 there are a couple more, I just don't remember. Jan 28 23:28:14 oh, well, that one doesn't have to be binary Jan 28 23:28:18 Because I don't use WOSQI. never have. Jan 28 23:28:44 destinal: so make it an ascii patch and submit it. Jan 28 23:28:45 :) Jan 28 23:28:52 that'd be nice :p Jan 28 23:28:54 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 23:28:54 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 23:28:54 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 23:28:55 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 23:28:57 VERSION GNAA > j00 Jan 28 23:29:25 ugh, someone +R this channel Jan 28 23:29:35 ugh, it was. it's too limiting Jan 28 23:29:47 I usually only use WOSQI when I freshly doctor my device. I find it slightly easier for me to put all my patches back on. I apply patches via the repository tab though not the check boxes. Also if I am multi-tasking on my computer and messing with my Pre I will use WOSQI but usually I stick to Preware Jan 28 23:29:51 it gives a nice error message with any reasonable client Jan 28 23:29:55 sigh Jan 28 23:29:56 I HATE people sometimes. Jan 28 23:30:00 destinal won't let me be op Jan 28 23:30:02 PuffTheMagic: got Sierra Nevada Bigfoor for $8/six pack Jan 28 23:30:09 *Bigfoot Jan 28 23:30:15 nice Jan 28 23:30:23 I do everything through an SSH shell on my Pre. Jan 28 23:30:36 seems like a mistake.... Jan 28 23:31:34 Just got off the phone with the gf I'll try running the ERU now Jan 28 23:36:16 TheInvsbleMan: hey sorry, got caught up at work :) ERU should take care of you :) Jan 28 23:36:44 hmagoo: bigfoot is one of the most amazing beers of all time. age it in a dark place for a few years, even better Jan 28 23:36:46 ERU just finished installing via Preware actually do I need to do anything else or is it done? Jan 28 23:37:30 Who made the decision to revoke +R? Jan 28 23:37:48 TheInvsbleMan: er.. maybe restart preware at the most? Jan 28 23:38:12 Ok give me a sec Jan 28 23:39:09 Thanks that worked Jan 28 23:45:40 hmagoo: good choice Jan 28 23:46:27 dBsooner: should be possible to do user agent patching in a very open way with a simple postinst and sed script Jan 28 23:46:49 or maybe a service that does that sed and a gui for flipping it around Jan 28 23:46:49 destinal: I was just saying that is what WOSQI does that Preware doesn't. Jan 28 23:47:50 binary doesn't mean closed if what is done to make it is there too and it's clear Jan 28 23:47:57 I have never used the iPhone user agent patch, is it any good? Websites seem to work fine for me Jan 28 23:48:27 destinal: I just mean if its compiled binary replacement, it's not plain text so it can't be read. Jan 28 23:49:01 =/ Jan 28 23:50:22 dBsooner: if it's like sed -i s/'Mozilla\/5.0...pre..'/'Mozilla\/5.0..iphone...'/ browser-plugin it's not closed Jan 28 23:50:24 Looks like the load on the preware.org feeds is back to normal. Jan 28 23:50:26 and it's clear what it's doing Jan 28 23:50:35 destinal: agreed. Jan 28 23:50:48 destinal: But what about compiled code replacement? Jan 28 23:51:42 dBsooner: that's trickier, I'd prefer to avoid it. if we have to, I think we could do it if it's really well documented and the user is able to read it and decide. Jan 28 23:51:47 OH NOOOO Jan 28 23:51:51 after all, we already distribute bianries Jan 28 23:51:53 binaries Jan 28 23:51:57 AUPT fatal flaw, patches come crumbling down, egaudet never seen from again Jan 28 23:51:59 the user has to trust ius Jan 28 23:52:01 I just made egaudet cry. Jan 28 23:52:29 egaudet: did something break? Jan 28 23:52:36 Kind of. Jan 28 23:52:51 we are doomed Jan 28 23:53:00 we didn't account for if the patch being applied had already been applied. Jan 28 23:53:10 in other words.. stock file includes what's being patched. Jan 28 23:53:20 your words are very confusing Jan 28 23:53:26 im still tired. Jan 28 23:53:47 so, if we're going to patch but it's already patched, we can't detect this? Jan 28 23:53:53 doesn't patch have the ability to? Jan 28 23:54:04 no, it tries to -R Jan 28 23:54:09 ackqwr Jan 28 23:54:26 why? Jan 28 23:54:31 destinal, current logic says "ooh already installed, nice" Jan 28 23:54:52 but it's the REMOVAL that is the problem Jan 28 23:54:59 so I just have to fix it Jan 28 23:55:03 egaudet: we can't -R ourselves when we go? Jan 28 23:55:09 oh Jan 28 23:55:11 destinal, that's the thing we -R when we go Jan 28 23:55:12 but we dont want to Jan 28 23:55:26 you mean someone would want to stay patched even after removing the patch? Jan 28 23:55:32 that's confusing Jan 28 23:55:35 destinal, picture this Jan 28 23:55:48 its because the PATCH was already installed in stock file Jan 28 23:55:57 why would that ever be? Jan 28 23:56:07 MIT and Palm includes exact code. Jan 28 23:56:22 ok but that would be a different version of webos Jan 28 23:56:22 the stock file from Palm includes something that a patch patches, and on removal it removes it but that's not what we want Jan 28 23:56:46 ? Jan 29 00:11:09 anyone know if we'll have access to the camera from PDK ? Jan 29 00:11:36 I tried to get images via gstreamer access in the passed, but it never worked Jan 29 00:12:26 err past Jan 29 00:14:11 hi! I have a Pre (with the Spanish Company: Movistar), but I change the firmware to Sprint 1.3.5.1 (because in Spain the 1.3.5.2 arrives very later), but now I have problems to install some apps, for example: http://developer.palm.com/webChannel/index.php?packageid=com.forwebos.rtycoonpac It isn't unavailable to my country... can I install it via ipk or remove my appcatalog restriction? Jan 29 00:23:17 i found a cute bug in the lock screen .. Jan 29 00:24:00 if you have the web browser open and full card under neath ... lock the phone, then power it back up and toggle the mute switch .. depending on orientation, you can get the volume icon to move back and forth Jan 29 00:24:02 kind of amusing Jan 29 00:25:51 I think I've seen that but thought the theme I had did that Jan 29 00:27:10 no themes here .. Jan 29 00:28:36 figured, just saying Jan 29 00:30:10 :) Jan 29 00:33:51 alex____: if you have the ipk you can install it by hand, but I don't know how you get the ipk if you don't Jan 29 00:35:37 destinal: I can't understand the restriction, because the package is free... I can understand it if I need pay for it, because the billing could be complex, but a free app... it have no sense (I think) Jan 29 00:37:17 alex____: I agree, this region locking is silly. does your phone still let you install spain-only apps but not north america only ones? Jan 29 00:37:58 I suspect you'd need someone to create you a palm profile on a north american pre to fix it, but then you'd lose the ability to install any spain apps Jan 29 00:38:01 from the catalog Jan 29 00:41:55 destinal: to be or not to be... that's the question :) Jan 29 00:42:16 I need sleep, here is 1.41am and I wake up at 8am see u! and thanks Jan 29 00:44:14 Enable LED notifications is winning the precentral poll on which patch they want palm to integrate into webos, at 2050 votes Jan 29 00:46:47 the phone app sucks so bad Jan 29 00:59:22 * xcomp attempts to build the evas gl_sdl engine for the first time ... Jan 29 01:01:15 xcomp: gl_sdl, as in on your pc or have you hacked it for gles? Jan 29 01:01:43 dtzWill: testing on my pc first, but it already has gles support Jan 29 01:04:53 hmm..forgot to set up a couple of m4 macros Jan 29 01:31:05 xcomp: how do you have gl-es on pc? Jan 29 01:31:21 destinal-wirc: i'm testing with regular gl first Jan 29 01:31:26 engine has to work with both Jan 29 01:32:38 destinal-wirc: pvr has gles emulator, fwiw Jan 29 01:33:29 i also need to stage gles headers in cross-compile Jan 29 01:33:34 i don't think they're there yet Jan 29 01:33:57 and tbh, that's a tricky proposition Jan 29 01:34:09 xcomp: no i don't think they are--since everything thus far uses sdl_opengles.h Jan 29 01:34:22 as I think those headers have platform-dependent stuff Jan 29 01:34:37 xcomp: although actually--why wouldn't gl-sdl driver in evas not be using sdl_opengl(es).h ? Jan 29 01:35:00 Erm is it weird that I have 18 cards open right now? I didn't know I could have that many Jan 29 01:35:15 TheInvsbleMan: i think the word you're looking for is "AWESOME" Jan 29 01:35:27 haha that could be it Jan 29 01:35:29 dtzWill: you're right ... but I need to make sure that all the symbols evas uses are actually present in that header file Jan 29 01:35:37 it does use SDL_opengl.h Jan 29 01:35:55 I was trying to cause a too many cards error but can't seem to open enough cards haha Jan 29 01:36:05 AMD seems to have gles2 emu Jan 29 01:37:48 xcomp: of course, no good if they don't expose things. i'd be surprised if they didn't expose things that were in libGLESv2 or GLES_CM, but shrug. Jan 29 01:38:16 yeah, egl symbols nowhere to be found in those headers... Jan 29 01:38:33 dtzWill: the 23rd card just gave me the error haha Jan 29 01:39:04 well...it's not an insurmountable problem Jan 29 01:39:14 let me try and see if the generic GL stuff works first Jan 29 01:40:08 xcomp: oh yeah egl stuff is a different issue Jan 29 01:40:24 xcomp: egl stuff does have platform-dependent issues; i didn't see any easy way to fix them at the time Jan 29 01:41:02 xcomp: might be my ignorance, but the egl headers need to typedef things like "EGlnativewindow".. and the normal linux ones do that to x11 objects. clearly not what webos does... Jan 29 01:41:40 yep...that's exactly what i mean Jan 29 01:42:20 i assume there is only one window and that is the SDL current surface Jan 29 01:42:49 but would it be right to typedef EGLNativeWindow as SDL_Surface? Jan 29 01:42:53 i don't know Jan 29 01:44:02 xcomp: yeah, i absolutely have no idea. Jan 29 01:45:54 howdy Jan 29 01:46:20 xcomp: but their sdl code uses egl too. was hoping for some insights there but i don't see any. just fyi i suppose Jan 29 01:46:52 jacques: hiya :) Jan 29 01:47:05 the palm patch? Jan 29 01:47:20 egl == opengl es ? Jan 29 01:47:24 xcomp: if you figure out egl headers lemme know i'm interested in staged gles/egl headers stuff Jan 29 01:47:37 jacques: http://www.khronos.org/egl/ Jan 29 01:47:47 jacques: egl is basically the native part of the whole deal Jan 29 01:48:08 * jacques goes to read that page. Jan 29 01:48:25 destinal-wirc: well i was looking at the patched libsdl, didn't check if the egl stuff came from the patch or not. Jan 29 01:48:43 I have a lot of reading to do - I just bought the opengl es 2.0 programming guide last night Jan 29 01:48:49 jacques: didn't mean to be a jerk "READ THIS"--just....that was written by people who arguably can explain it significantly better than i can :D Jan 29 01:50:27 jacques: oh nice. the opengles-book.com book? Jan 29 01:50:43 jacques: sorry i checked the website and it looks like it :) Jan 29 01:51:03 dtzWill: yep, all $60 of it Jan 29 01:51:15 hey has anyone tried porting qt? :) Jan 29 01:51:33 or building/running it, not sure what "porting" would be required. Jan 29 01:52:03 * jacques wonders why weechat is showing a lag of 12.9 seconds Jan 29 01:54:04 hiya dtzWill :p Jan 29 01:54:11 VincentLaw: hey :D Jan 29 01:54:32 so there are many libs in /usr/lib with EGL in their names Jan 29 01:55:00 along with /usr/lib/egl/libeglsubdrv.so Jan 29 01:55:49 jacques: right--and the method headers are relatively easy to get (provided by khronos). afaict that isn't an issue--that is to say headers that define the symbols exported in the egl libs shouldn't be difficult to get Jan 29 01:55:58 jacques: but to make them usable, their types .. i think that's the sticker. Jan 29 01:56:24 jacques: and i'm not sure if that information is something that can be extracted from a lib Jan 29 01:56:37 jacques: maybe? if it does it's a more than objdump and nm :D Jan 29 01:57:10 no, I don;t think that can be extracted :-\ Jan 29 01:57:21 EGLWindow, EGLSurface, etc, are all native. i guess they're some luna type?!? lol o_O Jan 29 01:57:53 does luna use egl at all? Jan 29 01:57:55 jacques: yeah, typedefs don't get exported :P. but it might be possible with some introspection on the implementation of the methods... but that's... crazy, and possibly impossible :) Jan 29 01:58:19 jacques: no idea. but sdl talks to luna, and sdl uses egl. frankly i'm not sure of who uses who, just that they are all in it together :) Jan 29 01:58:34 jacques: i am interested in clearing that up; just i don't know Jan 29 01:58:40 maybe I should take another look at the SDL patches Jan 29 01:58:40 if you're using SDL, you should never need to worry about a native luna type Jan 29 01:58:54 it has to be something defined in SDL Jan 29 01:58:59 that's why I believe it is SDL_Surface Jan 29 01:59:33 just call IMGeglGetCurrentSurface (*ducks*) Jan 29 02:00:08 xcomp: maybe? i'm not sure then the role egl plays in sdl (why does sdl include egl headers if egl is defined with respect to sdl types?) Jan 29 02:00:28 xcomp: but quite possibly, and you seem to have a good idea of the things :) Jan 29 02:00:33 maybe we could do something with preloaded lib stubs ? Jan 29 02:00:34 dtzWill: the idea is that if you're using SDL for opengl, then the native display system should be completely abstracted to you Jan 29 02:00:53 and anything you're doing natively is handled by SDL Jan 29 02:01:02 xcomp: oh, that's what you're saying. Jan 29 02:01:18 xcomp: absolutely, and completely agreed. that's a big part of the utility of sdl, etc. Jan 29 02:01:21 so unless palm is inexplicably violating that framework, i don't see how it could be anything not in SDL_*.h Jan 29 02:01:31 I read about that a couple of years ago - create stub libs with same symbols and preload them, passing the call through to the real lib Jan 29 02:02:02 jacques: yeah some proxy lib. what would we do that for? to try to see what the types are? Jan 29 02:02:17 dtzWill: that was my thought Jan 29 02:02:31 xcomp: well but sdl uses egl, which is why it seems odd for sdl (which defines SDL_Surface) to include egl (which defines EGLSurface (or whatever) to SDL_Surface). Jan 29 02:02:42 jacques: doesn't ltrace do it for you? Jan 29 02:02:46 xcomp: that kinda circular dependency might be going on i suppose, but wasn't my first thought Jan 29 02:03:09 destinal-wirc: maybe. I don't know the full capabilities of ltrace Jan 29 02:03:33 dtzWill: yeah i don't know the details of that Jan 29 02:03:34 * jacques does "ipkg-opt install ltrace" Jan 29 02:03:43 i just thought sdl_surface would be the most obvious candidate Jan 29 02:04:00 but I'm an SDL newb myself so there might be something I don't know Jan 29 02:05:07 xcomp: okay. so we both don't know hehe :). Jan 29 02:05:14 xcomp: add to the long list of things to figure out, heh Jan 29 02:06:08 yeah Jan 29 02:06:24 the good news is that if it is in fact something defined in SDL then it's only a matter of time before we find out Jan 29 02:06:58 I wonder if it would be instructive to look at SDL 1.3 as it has GLES support Jan 29 02:07:19 though I think I know why palm did not use SDL 1.3 Jan 29 02:07:44 jacques: why? :) Jan 29 02:07:48 apart from it being unreleased, apparently it's much slower than 1.2 in some operations Jan 29 02:08:17 if app code is re-written to use what they call the "new API" apparently it can be massively faster Jan 29 02:08:38 but compiling "old API" code for SDL 1.3 can result in much slower performance Jan 29 02:09:01 segv! woohoo Jan 29 02:09:05 apparently someone was looking at that issue Jan 29 02:09:48 yeah,i think that's precisely why Jan 29 02:10:07 howdy geist Jan 29 02:10:25 hiya Jan 29 02:17:38 sslow: ping Jan 29 02:17:49 bahahaha it works Jan 29 02:18:05 first step on the way to world domination Jan 29 02:20:15 xcomp: did you push anywhere> Jan 29 02:20:26 what works? Jan 29 02:21:29 destinal-wirc: gl_sdl evas engine Jan 29 02:21:52 * zsoc wants to run expedite with gl engine on his pre... Jan 29 02:22:44 only sdl_gl on X11 now Jan 29 02:22:51 i still need to test gles Jan 29 02:23:03 but I have to commit this to svn first Jan 29 02:23:08 cool Jan 29 02:23:24 xcomp: backwards :p gl_sdl xD, and gl_common is 100% gles 2.0 compatible Jan 29 02:23:56 xcomp: also, you must commit to svn before i publicly explain how awesome you are ;) Jan 29 02:27:38 :D Jan 29 02:28:00 PuffTheMagic: we need a bigger smiley Jan 29 02:28:17 ? Jan 29 02:28:21 (c:< Jan 29 02:28:27 nice Jan 29 02:31:01 anyone else having trouble updating feeds? mine keeps stalling Jan 29 02:31:36 can someone help me with this virtual keyboard im seeing delete media/internal/virtual-keyboard i do that and then install obsolete and then restart then install vk and i get ipkg error Jan 29 02:31:49 VincentLaw: nope. What if you "ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps update" Jan 29 02:31:50 ive looked all over and only soltuion i havent tried is partial reset Jan 29 02:31:56 but i did not want to do that if it was avoidable Jan 29 02:32:18 Smubeht: ask egaudet Jan 29 02:32:46 does any1 know how to create a webos app repo (feed) Jan 29 02:33:02 dBsooner: works fine doing that, apparently. but in preware, it stalls? Jan 29 02:33:15 zsoc: committed Jan 29 02:33:16 which one is it stalling on? Jan 29 02:33:23 now to tackle gles Jan 29 02:33:53 dBsooner: it changes. before it was webos itnernals arm7, now it's precentral's Jan 29 02:34:02 it's stalling on download, btw Jan 29 02:34:11 xcomp: tackle what gles? Jan 29 02:34:23 zsoc: i mean try to build it against gles Jan 29 02:34:30 VincentLaw: download is, effectively "update" Jan 29 02:34:31 VincentLaw: try tapping the screen repeatedly while its updating Jan 29 02:34:47 xcomp: it's gles compatible already, unless you missed some glx snippets? Jan 29 02:34:54 zsoc: he means "downloading the gz's".. not the loading them Jan 29 02:35:05 dBsooner: right, the "download" part is the update part ;) Jan 29 02:35:09 zsoc: yeah I just haven't compiled in that environment yet :) Jan 29 02:35:13 nah Jan 29 02:35:16 i just tested in x11 Jan 29 02:35:17 update is update Jan 29 02:35:18 ;) Jan 29 02:35:24 xcomp: ah, well you did the hard part mate Jan 29 02:35:38 yeah at this point i know my SDL stuff is good Jan 29 02:35:56 wow, odd dBsooner, that did seem to make it go. wtf? Jan 29 02:36:11 is that a known bug now? Jan 29 02:36:14 I am getting that too. Jan 29 02:36:18 I have no idea what is causing it. Jan 29 02:36:30 i already added some autoconf checks for Palm GLES defines that are not present in stock SDL_video.h Jan 29 02:36:36 egaudet and destinal thought they knew.. but now they aren't so sure. Jan 29 02:37:40 knew what? Jan 29 02:38:12 what's causing the Preware to get stuck during download of Packages.gz's Jan 29 02:38:13 xcomp: er.. committed where? i don't see it on the trac.. Jan 29 02:38:20 egaudet: ^^ Jan 29 02:38:33 zsoc: i just made two commits to evas and expedite Jan 29 02:38:55 who is having it get stuck? Jan 29 02:39:20 me Jan 29 02:39:24 and now VincentLaw Jan 29 02:39:44 dbus-util --capture org.webosinternals.ipkgservice Jan 29 02:39:52 I haven't heard of anything getting stuck before Jan 29 02:40:46 it happens during download of the .gz Jan 29 02:40:52 and not always the same one Jan 29 02:41:16 xcomp: oh... was it not trunk? Jan 29 02:41:28 zsoc: it is in trunk Jan 29 02:41:37 http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/browser/trunk/evas Jan 29 02:41:37 what does the dbus capture say Jan 29 02:41:43 and what happens when it "freezes" Jan 29 02:41:50 and what version of webos are you on Jan 29 02:41:53 and what version of ipkgservice Jan 29 02:41:55 and preware Jan 29 02:42:29 egltypes.h -- that's the file we don't have :) Jan 29 02:43:03 bingo Jan 29 02:43:05 found the problem Jan 29 02:43:07 I'll pm you Jan 29 02:43:09 and I think I'm just going to define everything as void* Jan 29 02:43:12 latest version that's on preware of ipkg and preware, running 1.3.5.1 (latest sprint), and it doesn't "freeze" merely will not continue downloading the next patch. spinner keeps spinning, but nothing happens Jan 29 02:44:20 xcomp: uh.. i have that header if you need? not sure where i got it ho Jan 29 02:44:51 zsoc: i'd certainly like to see it Jan 29 02:44:53 VincentLaw: do you have command line access? Jan 29 02:45:12 yes I do Jan 29 02:45:19 fire up command line Jan 29 02:45:20 although it doesn't seem to stall now that I did that tapping thing >.> Jan 29 02:45:25 already up Jan 29 02:45:31 turn off wifi Jan 29 02:45:37 xcomp: yeah, let me track down where i got it from and find out the correct distribution method Jan 29 02:45:40 so you are using cellular data Jan 29 02:45:53 wifi off Jan 29 02:46:31 VincentLaw: in command prompt: dbus-util --capture org.webosinternals.ipkgservice Jan 29 02:46:41 then fire up Preware Jan 29 02:46:50 oh doh Jan 29 02:46:56 lost command line when I turned off wifi :p Jan 29 02:46:59 lemme usb it Jan 29 02:47:03 lol Jan 29 02:47:25 http://i.imgur.com/oRffH.jpg Jan 29 02:48:18 okay dBsooner what now Jan 29 02:48:30 did Preware load fully? Jan 29 02:48:40 yeah, but it was before after doing your tapping trick :/ Jan 29 02:49:05 ahh. Ok. Probably just a fluke then. Go ahead and "ctrl+c" your dbus-util command Jan 29 02:49:21 what did you find, anyway? :p Jan 29 02:49:41 a permissions issue Jan 29 02:49:49 talking with com.palm.luna Jan 29 02:50:05 But I think I am just 'special' Jan 29 02:50:06 ah Jan 29 02:50:13 if it does it again, I'll log it Jan 29 02:50:27 please. Jan 29 02:50:49 does any1 know how to create a webos app feed Jan 29 02:51:05 diov6: do you mean actually creating the FEED with the packages and everything? Jan 29 02:51:10 or do you mean adding a feed into preware? Jan 29 02:51:13 yea Jan 29 02:51:33 PuffTheMagic, what was that easy way to call another private service from a C service? Jan 29 02:51:39 dBsooner: im looking into making one Jan 29 02:51:51 diov6: That's something that isn't easy to explain. Jan 29 02:52:47 ipkg-utils Jan 29 02:53:25 exactly.. Look into ipkg-utils Jan 29 02:53:31 dBsooner: i've been checking out ipkg.preware.org/feeds and ive noticed all the feeds have Packages.txt and Packages.gz but, some also have packages.stamps what is that Jan 29 02:53:42 where can i find ipkg-utils Jan 29 02:53:53 egaudet: i dont recall off hand but its there in the header Jan 29 02:53:53 the .stamps is for keys Jan 29 02:54:30 http://lmgtfy.com/?=ipkg-utils Jan 29 02:54:31 PuffTheMagic, I found com.palm.applicationManager/updateLaunchPointIcon Jan 29 02:54:35 ^^i love that site. :) Jan 29 02:54:35 but it doesn't work with luna-send Jan 29 02:54:46 doesn't like the "calling app" Jan 29 02:54:50 dBsooner: thanks for your help! Jan 29 02:54:59 Hehehe.. no problem. Jan 29 02:55:26 egaudet: what do u think it does? Jan 29 02:55:34 I think rwhitby is going to scold me for using lmgtfy so much. Jan 29 02:55:37 sounds like the same thing as rescan in lunamanger Jan 29 02:56:13 no it takes launchPointId: and icon: Jan 29 02:56:19 icon = path to icon.png Jan 29 02:56:25 launchPointId = app id Jan 29 02:56:27 lol. its just a url shortener :P Jan 29 02:56:44 egaudet: are you working on themes again? Jan 29 02:57:10 rescan is applicationManager/rescan **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 29 02:59:56 2010