**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Apr 03 02:59:57 2010 Apr 03 03:01:37 I managed to get alpha preware to execute arbitrary shell script Apr 03 03:02:39 in /media/cryptofs/apps/etc/ipkg I did touch \`ls\>sbromwichmarker\` Apr 03 03:02:51 palm-webos-device ipkg # cat /sbromwichmarker Apr 03 03:02:51 bin Apr 03 03:02:51 boot Apr 03 03:02:51 dev Apr 03 03:02:51 dspbridge Apr 03 03:02:53 etc. Apr 03 03:04:35 that's after I ran a feed update Apr 03 03:08:31 682 strcpy(command, "/bin/rm -f /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib/ipkg/cache/* 2>&1"); is another Apr 03 03:08:45 touch " .." in the cache dir for mirth and woe to ensue. Apr 03 03:08:57 well... I didn't, but I'm pretty sure it will. Apr 03 03:11:41 touch '\*' Apr 03 03:11:56 there's another nasty way to do it Apr 03 03:12:25 you can do that all from the preware alpha front end ? Apr 03 03:12:40 no, I'm sshing in Apr 03 03:12:48 doing it all from a bash prompt Apr 03 03:13:40 so what is the level of expectation that those things won't be in the ipkg directory ? Apr 03 03:15:28 depends on whether someone figures out an exploit for the pre and can rootkit your phone Apr 03 03:15:37 if they want to do the nasty that's the sort of thing they'd be doing Apr 03 03:16:03 realistically... it's a near zero chance of happening. That does not, though, mean it is a zero chance of happening. Apr 03 03:16:24 and as pterry himself wrote... "million to one chances happen nine times out of ten". Apr 03 03:18:56 I have a feeling that the snprintf could be exploited by someone with physical access to the device to leave a time bomb in the file created for the next time an update is run Apr 03 03:19:23 so I was looking for a cheap touchstone and came across this funny ad http://kansascity.craigslist.org/wan/1672971891.html Apr 03 03:19:35 i thought all bets were off once physical access was granted ? Apr 03 03:19:47 you still need to ssh in, right? Apr 03 03:20:48 all bets are off once physical access is granted, but that's no reason to make it easier Apr 03 03:21:26 to do this exploit I would need to add a feed like... hmmmm... http://`rm -rf /` or something Apr 03 03:22:19 bugger. is there a way to get a ` on the palm keyboard? Apr 03 03:22:29 sym button ? Apr 03 03:22:48 ah! Apr 03 03:22:49 good call Apr 03 03:25:09 yep... I can get shell scripts executed right off the device Apr 03 03:25:58 create a new feed called "Naughty" with a url of http://`touch sbromwichmarker2` and preware (a) goes slightly bonkers trying to process it, and (b) touches /sbromwichmarker2 Apr 03 03:27:13 anyone know the technical name for the little things things at the bottom of the app launcher that indicate the pages? i need to remove them Apr 03 03:27:31 comes back ok after disabling feed Naughty but I suspect a url of http://`rm -rf /` would be more irritating Apr 03 03:27:49 the pipe bar thingies? Apr 03 03:28:21 sbromwich: can you chain commands together with ;'s ? Apr 03 03:28:29 I can't get No Alert During Call to update. The patch hits some errors. Causing it to not update or remove itself. Apr 03 03:28:50 yes pipe bar thingies Apr 03 03:28:57 1100 "/bin/rm /media/cryptofs/apps/etc/ipkg/%s 2>&1", config); could lead to even greater mirth Apr 03 03:29:07 let me try and see... Apr 03 03:29:28 it is a bit silly those feeds are not qualified urls Apr 03 03:31:27 trying http://`touch sb1 && sb2 ; touch sb3` Apr 03 03:31:37 incidentally... any way to edit the url of a feed once it's added? Apr 03 03:31:54 no idea Apr 03 03:32:18 palm-webos-device / # ls -d sb* Apr 03 03:32:18 sb1 sb2 sb3 sbin Apr 03 03:32:18 palm-webos-device / # Apr 03 03:32:21 nope, swipe to delete and add again Apr 03 03:32:24 so && and ; both work Apr 03 03:32:31 ok, thanks Apr 03 03:32:55 but it seems that the backticks are the enablers here .. can you not use the backticks and just try ;'s and &'s ? Apr 03 03:33:32 oh, it's exactly backticks, because the code is executing a shell which interprets the backticks and executes them Apr 03 03:33:51 http://touch sb1 wouldn't do anything but bad URL Apr 03 03:33:53 right - but if you put in ;'s.. the shell should see that as the end of the command, right ? Apr 03 03:34:06 http://url;touch sb1 Apr 03 03:34:10 oh, I see what you mean Apr 03 03:34:21 let's find out! :-) Apr 03 03:34:26 Could anyone lend a hand? :p Apr 03 03:34:35 feel free ;-) Apr 03 03:35:58 interestingly http://www.fop.ns.ca;touch sb4 didn't work Apr 03 03:36:21 hmmm... maybe if I try escaping the space... Apr 03 03:37:45 nup Apr 03 03:38:06 backticks seem to be the magic bit there, http://www.fop.ns.ca;touch\ sb5 failed Apr 03 03:38:18 although maybe if I single quoted... Apr 03 03:39:57 nup Apr 03 03:41:25 1175 "/usr/bin/curl --create-dirs --insecure --location --fail --show-error --output /media/internal/.developer/%s %s 2>&1", filename, url); Apr 03 03:41:34 that looks like it might be more open to abuse Apr 03 03:42:42 so disallow or escape backtick and it seems like that should do it .. agreed ? Apr 03 03:43:03 that would be a good start Apr 03 03:43:35 maybe have an uber-anal charchecker for any strings that are put into a string that's executed by the shell Apr 03 03:44:17 probably a good idea Apr 03 03:44:29 A-Z, 0-9, :, / and - are I think the minimum that could be gotten away with Apr 03 03:45:52 1205 sprintf(prerm, "/media/cryptofs/apps/usr/lib/ipkg/info/%s.prerm", package); could be hit if someone uploaded a bogus package but I suspect if someone has got as far as getting the user to install your rootkit why bother being clever? Apr 03 03:46:05 could get hit through fuzz testing or similar Apr 03 03:47:30 or a corrupt index, now that I think further Apr 03 03:47:55 that has a remote chance of ending up as something nasty depending on exactly how it's corrupted Apr 03 03:49:19 dealing with user input is always such a horrendous thing .. Apr 03 03:49:37 *nod* Apr 03 03:50:10 I usually just regex out acceptable characters and if there's anything left at the end whinge back at the user, but that's not quite so easy here Apr 03 03:53:21 i usually just don't accept user input Apr 03 03:53:40 on a side note it looks like it might not be beyond the wit of man to do bindings for perl to enable back-end services to be written that way Apr 03 03:53:45 heh Apr 03 03:54:02 sometimes you just have to hold your nose and take it ;-) Apr 03 03:54:10 in the end, it's all just linux Apr 03 03:54:27 ok, on to luna_service.c Apr 03 03:54:45 yup Apr 03 03:55:18 looks clean Apr 03 03:55:35 ditto luna_service.h Apr 03 03:57:23 aaaaand the javascript, html and css I shall just nod and smile blankly at Apr 03 04:00:01 the js would be an easy place to check regex .. but since the service is exposed to everyone else Apr 03 04:00:08 you can't just expect to filter there Apr 03 04:00:44 that would be toooo easy Apr 03 04:01:19 has prerm been validated that none of the files being removed are being shared with the production version of preware? Apr 03 04:01:36 I would assume yes, but I thought I should ask anyway Apr 03 04:01:41 no idea Apr 03 04:02:40 well, hopefully rwhitby will catch it in his scrollback Apr 03 04:03:10 re Apr 03 04:03:38 how spooky is that. Apr 03 04:04:39 summary: filter out backticks, and maybe make an extra subroutine that's uber-anal about what characters are accepted Apr 03 04:04:48 when calling out to /bin/sh, that is Apr 03 04:06:01 sbromwich: sure. the current premise is that if you have ssh access, the game is over anyway, but you're right about feeds that can be added and then triggered Apr 03 04:06:08 ok I think I've gone through all the source I can read Apr 03 04:06:18 *nod* Apr 03 04:06:35 sbromwich: but the general case at the moment is that any root script can be put anywhere on the device by any mojo app as of webOS 1.4 Apr 03 04:06:43 rwhitby: if you go to add a feed, and do something like http://`touch /something` - it will execute Apr 03 04:07:11 webOS 1.4 killed all security for homebrew. Not only have the locks been taken off the doors, the outside walls have all been removed too. Apr 03 04:07:16 yeah, since it's running as root and all... not much that'll stop it Apr 03 04:07:17 oh ah? Apr 03 04:07:21 what security was there? Apr 03 04:07:31 jacques ping Apr 03 04:07:50 I only got my pre a couple of weeks ago so I came in at 1.4, I think Apr 03 04:08:03 it used to be the case that you had to have installed Preware and confirm scripts and all that stuff, but now any ipkg can have a pmPostInstal.script in it and game's over. Apr 03 04:08:36 of course Palm strips everything before it goes in the app catalog, so they maintain that bright line of security very tightly. Apr 03 04:08:39 that's forced to run with no user interaction? Apr 03 04:08:42 riiiiiiight Apr 03 04:09:15 I worked on the first beta units of the palm pilot in the UK, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one Apr 03 04:09:18 Ka6sox-mobile, howdy Apr 03 04:09:37 sorry to break it up Apr 03 04:09:37 but it's clear that whereas we were attempting do maintain homebrew security with signed scripts and all that stuff, Palm simply doesn't care about homebrew security, cause you've already given up any claim on Palm by installing the homebrew in the first place. Apr 03 04:09:50 *nod* Apr 03 04:10:15 oh, and another question: what's the difference between ipkg and ipkg-opt? Apr 03 04:10:23 so I personally have given up trying to be thorough about it, but will happily accept any patches that close holes. Apr 03 04:10:36 they seem to have different package lists but only CLI stuff when I do ipkg/ipkg-opt list from bash Apr 03 04:10:42 ipkg-opt is for optware packages from nslu2-linux.org which install totally under /opt Apr 03 04:10:46 fair enough :-) Apr 03 04:10:50 right Apr 03 04:11:09 ipkg without an argument is Palm rootfs, ipkg with -o /media/cryptofs/apps is app catalog and homebrew Apr 03 04:11:21 some optware packages have been packaged up for Preware Apr 03 04:11:32 (openssh, lighttpd, etc) Apr 03 04:11:52 how unhappy would things get if I were to install the same package from both ipkg and ipk-opt? would I get refused second time around as it being seen as already installed? Apr 03 04:11:53 others can be easily added to that list if anyone is interested in them Apr 03 04:12:11 heh Apr 03 04:12:16 nope, they use completely separate databases, and in general install in different locations Apr 03 04:12:24 I have gcc on there, I've been compiling my own stuff quite happily from CPAN :-) Apr 03 04:12:32 ah, excellent Apr 03 04:13:04 the only thing that can stuff you up is if you install the same optware package with preware and ipkg-opt, and then remove it using one and not the other and think that it's still installed Apr 03 04:13:33 and one last question... do you know if anyone has done a full kernel compile or was that 800MHz patch just a binary patch? Apr 03 04:13:58 Jacques, what are you suspecting the problem is with the build app you are having trouble with? Apr 03 04:14:00 JayCanuck: excellent post on the Preware Alpha thread. Let's have a good public stoush to liven things up and draw some clear boundaries ;-) Apr 03 04:14:47 I think I was actually quite good at qwelling things after your out-of-place "obsolete" comment Apr 03 04:15:47 :-) Apr 03 04:15:54 Ka6sox-mobile, I was building qemu in the VM and got a segfault in as, then I tried again and it continued Apr 03 04:16:27 Ka6sox-mobile, I was building qemu as a way of debugging qemu segfaults Apr 03 04:16:55 Ka6sox-mobile, to be more clear, I wanted to try a locally built qemu in case there was a problem with the distro qemu binaries Apr 03 04:17:21 Ka6sox-mobile, but after the as segfault, I started to suspect problems with the VM itself (or hardware) Apr 03 04:18:14 Ka6sox-mobile, so I am open to says of narrowing things down / troubleshooting further Apr 03 04:18:20 run memtest86? Apr 03 04:18:30 s/say/way/ Apr 03 04:18:30 jacques meant: Ka6sox-mobile, so I am open to ways of narrowing things down / troubleshooting further Apr 03 04:18:57 sbromwich, I thought of that but don't have that level of access Apr 03 04:19:10 shell access only? Apr 03 04:19:20 also, as this problem is in a VM, things are complicated Apr 03 04:20:00 cpuburn? Apr 03 04:20:13 that might stress the hardware enough to show any dicky components Apr 03 04:20:14 okay I missed all B4 the line abt being in a vm Apr 03 04:20:39 JayCanuck: BTW, did you see this thread? http://forums.precentral.net/webos-app-reviews/239653-i-think-im-gonna-dump-wosqi-use-palm.html - it hilarious the level of misunderstanding about WOSQI that exists Apr 03 04:21:06 Ka6sox-mobile, private msg? Apr 03 04:23:33 Now, to test that palm-install can install preware-alpha on a virgin device Apr 03 04:26:22 rwhitby, how do I identify the server/VM I had the segfault problem with? Apr 03 04:26:40 JayCanuck: karmic Apr 03 04:26:55 karmic? Apr 03 04:27:23 its karmic 32bit Apr 03 04:27:30 ok thanks Apr 03 04:28:08 jacques can you email this to dyoung? Apr 03 04:29:05 evening Apr 03 04:29:22 Ka6sox-mobile, writing the email now Apr 03 04:29:24 We currently just call it karmic on cheli Apr 03 04:29:49 Cc me please? Apr 03 04:30:05 possible to connect to my pre using WinSCP? Apr 03 04:30:33 internals site says that using SCP protocol is just as effective as going through all the hassle of installing SFTP Apr 03 04:30:58 But I'm not sure how to connect with SCP ... hostname, ports to use, etc Apr 03 04:31:09 Ka6sox-mobile, BTW, would there be any value in me being in corvallis between april 15-20 ? Apr 03 04:31:35 Monroe: install Preware, install OpenSSH, setup ssh keys, use root and port 22 over wifi. Apr 03 04:32:00 right, time for me to head off Apr 03 04:32:09 sbromwich: thanks for the review Apr 03 04:32:10 thanks rwhitby for the quick fix to the alpha :-) Apr 03 04:32:14 you're welcome :-) Apr 03 04:32:20 as are you :-) Apr 03 04:33:54 there's a new preware alpha? Apr 03 04:34:16 jacques: http://bit.ly/preware-alpha Apr 03 04:35:45 rwhitby, I'm running 0.9.53 - is there a newer one to try? Apr 03 04:36:05 jacques: preware alpha should tell you if there is ;) Apr 03 04:36:18 (assuming you have the testing feed loaded) Apr 03 04:36:32 hmm - I should put the testing feed in preware-alpha by default Apr 03 04:36:44 but that requires starting it, and I'm not running the 800MHz patch :-) Apr 03 04:37:17 jacques: 0.9.54 has a fix for initial install startup Apr 03 04:37:26 if it's already working, you don't need it Apr 03 04:37:32 ah great Apr 03 04:37:41 mine appears to be working fine Apr 03 04:39:05 mail sent, but it appears ka6sox has dropped off again Apr 03 04:42:32 this java irc client keeps messing up Apr 03 04:44:09 must. resist. obvious. joke. Apr 03 04:44:19 Ka6sox-mobile, mail sent Apr 03 04:45:44 awesome, preware-alpha installs on a virgin device using purely Palm tools and nothing else. Apr 03 04:45:54 nice rwhitby Apr 03 04:46:02 nice Apr 03 04:46:56 So the Palm SDK is now the "Software Deployment Kit" and the PDK is the "Preware Deployment Kit" ;) Apr 03 04:47:05 hahaha Apr 03 04:47:14 (either can install preware-alpha) Apr 03 04:47:57 you would't happen to have a link would you? Apr 03 04:48:12 jacques: http://bit.ly/preware-alpha Apr 03 04:48:22 s/jacques:/halfhalo_T400:/ Apr 03 04:48:23 rwhitby meant: halfhalo_T400: http://bit.ly/preware-alpha Apr 03 04:49:27 but...but.... download link? Apr 03 04:51:38 jacques: can you repeat the qemu experiment while ka6sox watches the logs? Apr 03 04:51:47 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 03 04:52:25 so who's still awake? Apr 03 04:52:42 rwhitby, can you msg me the info to login again? Apr 03 04:53:17 I'm not at home - hmm I wonder if this machine even has the key I need ... I might need to boot the othre laptop Apr 03 04:54:36 ah yeah this laptop sohuld have the right key Apr 03 04:54:42 phil_bw: g'day Apr 03 04:54:53 g'day rod Apr 03 04:55:00 what time is it down under? Apr 03 04:56:52 anywhere between 1pm Sat to 4pm Sat depending where you are. 3:30pm here Apr 03 04:57:04 yeah, I guess that was a dumb question Apr 03 04:57:24 ah right on, 10pm here (west coast, usa) Apr 03 04:57:39 almost midnight here Apr 03 04:57:40 I'm falling asleep watching a 1.5gb debian img file transfer to my pre Apr 03 04:58:07 jacques, hawaii or the aleutian islands? Apr 03 04:58:30 hmm ... downloaded and installed preware following instructions. Everything seemed to work. Rebooted phone, tapped launcher, I don't see a Preware app ... ?? Apr 03 04:58:56 phil_bw, I'm two timezones east of you :-) Apr 03 04:59:02 er Apr 03 04:59:07 it's 6:45pm Sat on the Chatham Islands, which are currently GMT+13:45 for another 7 hours or so Apr 03 04:59:11 blah I should just go to sleep Apr 03 04:59:15 :-) Apr 03 04:59:19 I'm bound to brick my pre at this rate Apr 03 05:00:17 I know bricking the pre is about impossible... but if I thought hawaii was later than me I could probably do it... Apr 03 05:08:58 * phil_bw wanders off Apr 03 05:25:08 I'm, for some reason, banned from #webos Apr 03 05:25:19 I haven't done anything to upset them :/ Apr 03 05:25:27 Is there something I'm missing? Apr 03 05:33:02 yoshiness: you need to be registered to talk in there Apr 03 05:33:13 they forgot to remove the spam protection from a while back Apr 03 05:33:21 it's nothing personal ;) Apr 03 05:42:58 jacques: do you still have that pixi? Apr 03 05:43:54 rwhitby, yes Apr 03 05:45:11 I want to develop a 3D game for the webOS devices, but openGL isn't so easy to use IMO. Do we have any libraries ported for coding 3D on webOS? Apr 03 05:45:45 jacques: did you ever work with PreGame to find how the LED functioned? Apr 03 05:46:40 rwhitby, no, I don't remember about that Apr 03 05:53:04 not jacques, i worked with nebula Apr 03 06:14:31 ok, Preware Alpha 0.9.55 is released, and is installable with palm-install on emulator and device Apr 03 06:33:56 does the iphone spoof work for 1.4.1.1 yet ? Apr 03 07:20:15 im assuming the preware bootstrap can install the Preware Alpha? Apr 03 07:26:28 FuMan: no Apr 03 07:32:37 * rwhitby bbl Apr 03 07:52:39 oh bummer Apr 03 07:52:46 so i have to go old-preware to install the new one? Apr 03 08:18:02 Hrm Apr 03 08:18:05 preware boostrap failing Apr 03 08:18:18 and WebOS Internals feeds not showing up in WOSQI Apr 03 08:18:21 tis a sad day Apr 03 08:20:24 rwhitby: saw the localization tweet. Check out: locale.js in the framework/javascripts directory. Usage in drPodder: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=applications/drpodder.git;a=blob;f=src/app/models/db.js;h=9f760c83633a616f9430702f2ef3277f0c62321c;hb=HEAD#l524 Apr 03 08:21:07 I handle the setting in preferences: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=applications/drpodder.git;a=blob;f=src/app/assistants/preferences-assistant.js;h=63502adef34710f93b2aa8dd2f3460509acf2eb0;hb=HEAD#l112 Apr 03 08:21:15 maybe not the cleanest, but I think it works. Apr 03 09:28:06 hi, sorry, I asked this question yesterday and had a connection loss afterwards, I've got a German O2 pre and I'm still waiting for the 1.4.1 update, hitting the Update button results in a nice "welcome to webos 1.4" message. I wouldn't care for 1.4.1, if my App Catalog hadn't gone down to 24 apps XD Apr 03 09:46:44 drnull: thx Apr 03 10:01:00 bsm: the non O2 users can already update to 1.4.1 Apr 03 10:01:40 airmack: I'm on german vodafone, thats why I don't get it.... Apr 03 10:10:54 autobuilder has died and corrupted the feed indexes in the process Apr 03 10:11:22 no changelog for Preware Alpha 0.9.55? Apr 03 10:11:43 mjkjr: nope Apr 03 10:12:01 alpha testers love surprises Apr 03 10:30:23 So with Preware and Preware Alpha set up exactly the same why would I see a different number of available packages in each? Apr 03 10:31:50 mjkjr: preferences? Apr 03 10:32:05 ok, feed indexes should be back to nromal Apr 03 10:33:40 all of the preferences seem exactly the same when I compare, taking screen shots Apr 03 10:41:44 All preferences are the same between the two Apr 03 10:42:17 http://bit.ly/9l7AFU Apr 03 10:50:47 almost seems like i may not be getting one of the webos-internals feeds in Preware Alpha or something. Comparing the two, in Alpha I have 23 less available packages, 2 less patches, and 40 less available other than I do in Preware, hmm Apr 03 10:56:36 updated the feeds 3 times and now everything is finally showing fine Apr 03 11:05:07 mjkjr: are you following @webosinternals on twitter? Apr 03 11:05:33 http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/11528149938 Apr 03 11:05:58 of course i am rwhitby (that's the only reason I made a twitter accout). I actually just opened twee and am catching up =) Apr 03 11:07:55 rwhitby, what is the "donation kitty..." Apr 03 11:08:42 mjkjr: the total amount of donations available for purchasing hardware Apr 03 11:09:57 mjkjr: we went close to zero when we bought the new server. Apr 03 11:11:47 interesting name "kitty". I assumed that with the new server and the smooth transition to 1.4.1.1 there would be some donations coming in to fill it back up Apr 03 11:12:20 is an autobuiler machine pretty pricey? Apr 03 11:14:52 mjkjr: ironically, donations usually come in when things are broken, rather than when things are running smoothly Apr 03 11:15:35 when the servers are working perfectly, no-one even thinks about them Apr 03 11:16:22 i guess that kind of makes sense, people don't realize how important something really is until they can't use it Apr 03 11:17:51 kind of like the saying "you never know what you have until it's gone" or something like that Apr 03 11:28:34 yep Apr 03 12:43:47 wonder if this is legit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcvyHObVlXc Apr 03 12:54:48 I would put money on no Apr 03 12:55:07 if the phone app had that sort of stuff in it I'm sure someone would have noticed and said something by now Apr 03 12:56:46 also, when he puts the numbers in, it says PIN Incorrect lol Apr 03 13:22:15 * mjkjr doesn't know what to think about the whole "unlocking" thing, did read someone claiming to accomplish it on p|c Apr 03 13:25:25 * mjkjr just saw the end of the video and realized that's the guy from p|c with the flash of webpage at the end Apr 03 14:00:01 VincentLaw: there is a CarrierAuthDialogAssistant in the phone app Apr 03 14:04:48 rwhitby: ah. well, whatever he did was the incorrect pin anyway :p Apr 03 14:05:29 also, I was watching engadget's review of the ipad... the browser isn't exactly fast. My pre when overclocked to 800mhz loads the same engadget front page in exactly the same time. Apr 03 14:05:39 I was highly amused by that Apr 03 14:05:39 * rwhitby bbt Apr 03 14:05:52 night :p Apr 03 14:22:24 hmpf why is the gui crashing every now and then after installing preware? Apr 03 14:53:14 airmack: that issue has nothing to do with preware, it's a luna bug that is triggered by many applications. People that have never even installed preware have the same issue Apr 03 15:06:11 mjkjr: i see. thanks Apr 03 15:19:52 mh, is it possible to enter '|' in the xterm-app? Apr 03 15:32:29 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 03 15:39:34 so I went and did the unthinkable... installed OpenOffice on my 500mhz Pre. It's surprisingly usable. Apr 03 15:40:30 hehe Apr 03 15:41:51 took all night to install... Apr 03 15:43:31 pic or it didn't happen Apr 03 15:44:43 I'm going to take vid tonight Apr 03 15:44:55 sweet Apr 03 15:44:56 a screen shot doesn't exactly prove much Apr 03 15:45:29 I'm honestly not screwin with ya, I was in here last night talking about the method Apr 03 15:48:21 haha, just installed Audacity too.. picks up the mic and records...crashed before I could test playback Apr 03 15:48:37 perhaps something more lightweight would be better for the job Apr 03 15:49:15 cool Apr 03 15:50:35 so you know a way to enter '|' in the xterm app? Apr 03 15:50:40 *do Apr 03 15:50:46 I'm really just doing this to see if it *can*. actual usability isn't expected. though OpenOffice really surprised me Apr 03 15:50:55 I dont Apr 03 15:51:10 I generally use the terminal app for all terminaling Apr 03 15:52:05 ok thanks Apr 03 15:52:20 and yeah, that would be a monster-app ;) Apr 03 15:52:26 openoffice via preware *g* Apr 03 15:52:38 I don't know how possible it'd be Apr 03 15:52:49 I'm using Debian for all of my programs Apr 03 15:53:15 then using the xorg package dtzWill put together Apr 03 15:53:24 whoever fixed terminal, if they are here, thank you. Apr 03 15:53:48 yes, I second that Apr 03 15:55:44 dreadchicken: egaudet, and dtzwill did it .. there is still a bug Apr 03 15:55:54 don't go into any of the preferences from the drop down menu Apr 03 15:56:01 it will crash luna Apr 03 15:56:04 yes, ran into it. prefs == luna restart Apr 03 15:56:06 that Apr 03 15:57:27 yeah, some strange memory management stuff going on with the FontInfo pointer Apr 03 15:57:31 not sure where it's getting borked Apr 03 16:15:59 wow phil, audacity recorded? Apr 03 16:16:16 cuz PDL nor SDK has recording functions Apr 03 16:16:18 not surprising, it's also Apr 03 16:16:37 keith: you can access the mic through gstreamer or alsa directly Apr 03 16:16:41 or pulseaudio Apr 03 16:16:59 ahh wow Apr 03 16:17:02 did not know that Apr 03 16:17:15 zsoc_wirc: I have an app, expect to see it in testing soon Apr 03 16:17:27 a voice memo app? Apr 03 16:17:29 or a voip? :D Apr 03 16:17:31 keith: but you're right, there's no official means to access the mic Apr 03 16:17:41 i really want to see a sip client for webos Apr 03 16:18:29 keith: you are not the only one Apr 03 16:18:46 PDL seems perfect for stuff like that, IMO Apr 03 16:19:25 I'm reading forums on pdl right now to try to figure out where all that stands. Sounds like "out of beta" is targeted some time "first half of 2010" which is good Apr 03 16:19:33 if it had official mic support Apr 03 16:20:03 like zsoc said - you can access it using unofficial means for now if you didn't want to wait Apr 03 16:20:20 ya i know Apr 03 16:22:21 ipkg-opt run bare these days or need a -o /media/cryptofs/opt ? wiki is not clear and i -think- it changed within the last couple of months. Apr 03 16:25:45 ^ you run it bare. Apr 03 16:26:33 bpadalino: what means is that? Apr 03 16:26:50 ah, that doesn't interfere with anything Apr 03 16:26:58 or you mean unofficial as in outside of pdk Apr 03 16:27:07 outside of pdk Apr 03 16:27:08 18:16 <+zsoc_wirc> or pulseaudio Apr 03 16:27:15 18:16 <+zsoc_wirc> keith: you can access the mic through gstreamer or alsa directly Apr 03 16:27:22 ah I missed that people were talking Apr 03 16:27:40 phil_bw: you running it on a remote X screen? Apr 03 16:27:42 yeah I use gstreamer to record voice memos already Apr 03 16:27:51 tmzt: no Apr 03 16:28:09 using dtzWill's SDL setup Apr 03 16:28:26 then directing to the display via debian (through chroot) Apr 03 16:29:01 20:10 <+rwhitby> Jeah: omadm is some sort of carrier update related thing Apr 03 16:29:14 related to OMA DRM spec or is this for communicating with baseband? Apr 03 16:33:25 what's dtzWill's SDL setup? Apr 03 16:33:32 it includes an X server? Apr 03 16:35:46 ya thats how xterm works Apr 03 16:35:47 tmzt_: it's in the preware testing feed Apr 03 16:35:58 it'll start an empty xorg server Apr 03 16:35:59 but what is it Apr 03 16:36:04 on sdl? Apr 03 16:36:08 using what codebase Apr 03 16:36:09 yes Apr 03 16:36:18 not entirely sure Apr 03 16:36:27 installed it and it worked, left it at that Apr 03 16:36:46 bound the /tmp dirctory to my debian setup Apr 03 16:36:58 ran icewm --display :0.0 Apr 03 16:37:05 (from debian) Apr 03 16:37:27 ps aux |grep X Apr 03 16:37:28 and ice loaded up in the server, was all apt-gets from there Apr 03 16:37:56 one sec Apr 03 16:39:15 oh way too much output to find anything useful Apr 03 16:40:00 looking for Xorg|Xsdl etc. Apr 03 16:40:17 Xsdl Apr 03 16:40:32 shoulda just looked at the bottom... Apr 03 16:40:36 so it's the old Xsdl which was just removed from git Apr 03 16:41:24 ah, didn't know that Apr 03 16:41:56 there's better? (because this is running great) Apr 03 16:42:47 no, I mean it was removed by x.org because it was old and nobody uses it Apr 03 16:43:39 I see Apr 03 16:57:38 Me, my son, and my Pre at the Phillies game last night http://imgur.com/5eBxB Apr 03 17:01:54 whoops Apr 03 17:02:20 I need to reboot the webos server...should be only about 3-5 minutes(RT) Apr 03 17:42:14 nt4cats|away: 15000 people in thatstadium and you're talking to us on wirc? lol. classic programmer Apr 03 17:45:42 where's rboatright? Apr 03 17:47:20 ok. I guess that was lost Apr 03 17:57:46 man, having those 2 prewares concurrently Apr 03 17:57:51 is jacking my feeds alll up Apr 03 17:58:36 hi Apr 03 17:59:41 I think I have found a bug in preware alpha 0.9.55; after adding and removing feeds so much last night my ipkg status file appears to have become corrupted. The emergency reconstruction utility just installs itself and doesn't actually do anything. Apr 03 18:00:00 Is there anything I can do from the CLI to regenerate the status listing for the GUI? Apr 03 18:04:28 sbromwich: probably, but only egaudet knows the workings Apr 03 18:04:49 ah, shutdown -r now appears to have done the trick Apr 03 18:05:09 restarting? Apr 03 18:05:24 if that's the case, you could have just restarted your java services Apr 03 18:05:25 restarted Apr 03 18:05:35 yeah, I don't trust java Apr 03 18:06:14 yeah, reboot and my installed packages are there, refresh feeds and it's still right Apr 03 18:10:02 the only oddity I can find now is NesEm is considered to be a browser app from an unknown feed Apr 03 18:10:15 I am sure it is not. Apr 03 18:21:42 feature request for preware alpha: I don't know if this is possible but hiding demo apps (particularly time limited ones) as well as paid ones would be nice. Apr 03 18:24:44 sbromwich: patches welcome Apr 03 18:25:12 if you want to write perl bindings I'm quite happy to write any backend services you need. Apr 03 18:34:28 lucky me, that the palm is already accesable short time after the bootup through ssh, i just spawned a shotload of openvpn processes during the bootup :/ Apr 03 18:44:51 that shouldn't be really surprising Apr 03 18:58:33 'mornin zsoc Apr 03 18:58:43 'ello Apr 03 18:58:45 er well for at least 2 more minutes on the west coast... Apr 03 18:59:26 hey does anybody know where doc files downloaded through email wind up? Apr 03 19:00:28 anybody knows where the email information are stored? Apr 03 19:01:23 it's stored.. somewhere Apr 03 19:01:33 maybe... /var ? Apr 03 19:01:51 find | grep something you downloaded Apr 03 19:02:14 /media/internal/downloads seemed to make sense but nope Apr 03 19:03:04 tryin to test out some doc editing in openoffice but getting to the docs has proven to be more challenging than the actual install openoffice on the pre endevor... Apr 03 19:05:51 why doesn't the emailwizard like 10.8.0.1 as a server 'name' during manual setup? Apr 03 19:06:24 because no reasonable person would use a name like that ;) Apr 03 19:06:46 perhaps try throwing a letter in front of it? Apr 03 19:07:14 hmpf but 192.168.178.* is fine :( Apr 03 19:07:29 palm is really getting on my nervs Apr 03 19:07:37 sounds like a bug then Apr 03 19:08:22 it's an ip address not a name Apr 03 19:08:54 email wizard is being correctly RFC compliant, I would say Apr 03 19:09:14 sbromwich: no Apr 03 19:09:31 no? Apr 03 19:09:36 as i can connect through the wizard to my local network Apr 03 19:09:40 just through ip Apr 03 19:10:01 ye-es? Apr 03 19:10:14 set up a dns server and give your smtp server a proper name then? Apr 03 19:10:36 /etc/hosts should be more than enough Apr 03 19:10:38 still not working Apr 03 19:11:07 /etc/hosts doesn't provide an MX record Apr 03 19:11:31 or any other information that is standard Apr 03 19:12:20 ... there is no need for that Apr 03 19:12:27 I will tell you as a mail admin my servers are set to RFC requirements and an IP with no forward and reverse will get its mail attempt refused Apr 03 19:12:50 it should just translate the name to ip , which is done exactly at that file Apr 03 19:13:27 sbromwich: i just want get my imap through openvpn Apr 03 19:13:35 it depends on how anal the email client is being Apr 03 19:13:36 so no need for any smtp Apr 03 19:13:41 very anal Apr 03 19:13:47 * drewp <3 openvpn on pre Apr 03 19:13:58 if it's reading /etc/resolv.conf and doing a dns resolution against the first DNS server it finds in there that would fail Apr 03 19:14:11 sbromwich: which it doesn't Apr 03 19:14:15 I run vpnc myself Apr 03 19:14:17 first it checks /etc/hosts Apr 03 19:14:30 ping $NAME works Apr 03 19:14:51 what does the client do second? Apr 03 19:17:21 perhaps try tcpdumping all the interfaces simultaneously to see if/where it's sending dns? Apr 03 19:18:04 sbromwich: there is no problem with the dns Apr 03 19:18:15 as stated i can even connect through telnet Apr 03 19:18:19 I can't see anything obviously email related on palm's open source listing so whatever they're doing with email it's closed source Apr 03 19:18:27 through a number, not a name? Apr 03 19:18:31 both Apr 03 19:19:32 I would still suggest tcpdumping the interfaces to see if it's even touching the interfaces before marking it as fail Apr 03 19:20:03 otherwise, I daresay you're in for an interesting afternoon disassembling binaries, or getting in touch with palm support ;-) Apr 03 19:22:19 and changing the /etc/hosts is definetly working, as i changed my current name to "computer.local" and it can easily access the imap service Apr 03 19:22:33 anyway i am going to run wireshark Apr 03 19:25:36 is your error "Unable to connect to the mail server. Please try again later" or "Unable to connect to the mail server. Try again later." (not lack of "Please")? Apr 03 19:27:00 I have to go, good luck with wireshark. Apr 03 19:28:02 hello Apr 03 19:28:53 is somebody there Apr 03 19:30:41 sbromwich: now i am sure, that the pre isn't even trying Apr 03 19:30:51 not a single package received Apr 03 19:31:59 "Error during authentication ... Couldn't autheticate the incoming mail server. Please check your settings" Apr 03 19:34:30 do you have a data connection? Apr 03 19:35:25 zsoc: as said, i can telnet ping 10.8.0.1 through the console Apr 03 19:36:21 anyway i'll be back in 30min Apr 03 20:05:58 found the email attachments... palm burried them deep Apr 03 20:06:27 down in /var/luna/data/attachments/bucket19/part_659126870117/file.doc Apr 03 20:06:38 dunno why they had to get a bucket involved Apr 03 20:08:19 oh wow, the attachments directory is a bloody mess Apr 03 20:08:43 phil_bw: that is not the only thing... Apr 03 20:09:58 i'm not surprised Apr 03 20:11:15 too bad there isn't a way to set a directory to automatically show symlinks of all *.doc files inside the attachments folder Apr 03 20:11:25 and if there actually is a way to do that, I'd be the last guy to ask... Apr 03 20:14:27 phil_bw: you could do something like that Apr 03 20:14:45 not sure how Apr 03 20:14:59 find /var/luna/data/attachments/ -name *.doc Apr 03 20:17:35 that's what i did to find them Apr 03 20:17:50 but if I'm using say "open" from a program Apr 03 20:18:15 I'd like to select one directory and see only the doc files across all of the subdirectories Apr 03 20:19:57 you could do that in the shell Apr 03 20:20:24 save the result from find and make a link with ln to one folder Apr 03 20:20:31 I asked the guys over in #linux and they said to do this: mkdir /newdir && find /olddir -type f -exec ln -s '{}' /newdir \; Apr 03 20:20:34 but that'll only do it once Apr 03 20:22:53 it's a cache Apr 03 20:22:59 that's why they're hashed like that Apr 03 20:23:45 geist, you know that makes sense Apr 03 20:28:53 phil_bw if you don't mind also softlinking subirs you can just do ln -s /source/dir/* /target/dir/ Apr 03 20:28:55 phil_bw: use lighttpd from Preware and an upstart script to periodically build a symlink farm somewhere in /var, and then serve it on localhost using lighttpd. Apr 03 20:29:15 note that symlinks won't work on /media/ - hence using /var Apr 03 20:29:26 * geist curses FAT Apr 03 20:29:40 rwhitby, that's an interesting idea too Apr 03 20:30:20 too bad there's no good way to have a script run when the directory contents change by a certain criteria Apr 03 20:30:34 phil_bw: sure there is - inotify Apr 03 20:31:12 hah, they just said that over in the other chan too Apr 03 20:31:17 * phil_bw fires up google Apr 03 20:33:56 Hey all Apr 03 20:34:03 quick question for you all Apr 03 20:34:56 If I wanted to copy everything from /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications to the USB portion I would do a cp -r *.* /media/internal correct? Apr 03 20:35:35 Major: no Apr 03 20:35:59 oops i forogt i have to add /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications in there lol Apr 03 20:36:12 and still *.* isn't correct Apr 03 20:36:41 cp -r /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications /media/internal that is the correct command Apr 03 20:37:07 yeah i know i realized that since i wasn't in ther correct direcotry Apr 03 20:37:17 *.* wouldn't work Apr 03 20:40:48 * nt4cats checks the optware feed for rsync ... Apr 03 20:41:26 what does that means? "feeds are now manual"? Apr 03 20:46:47 hucksy: it means that the autobuilder is broken, so I am the manual builder Apr 03 20:47:06 nt4cats: rsync is on the Pre rootfs stock Apr 03 20:47:13 oh ok Apr 03 20:48:46 so I'm curious, has anybody tired using NFS on their Pre to share files on a local network? Apr 03 20:49:16 rwhitby: good to know .. I took my Pre out of dev mode to see if that improved stability -- and I removed the added daemon processes (e.g. dropbear), so I don't have a super-quick way to check for myself Apr 03 20:50:53 I guess I could have fired up the Palm SDK Apr 03 20:53:25 phil_bw: yeah, I think NFS has been achieved early on Apr 03 20:53:46 phil_bw: I personally usually just use rsync over ssh Apr 03 20:54:19 rwhitby Hey i'm returning my phone today due to dead pixels discoloring and want to grab all my data off would this work? cp -r /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications/*.* /media/internal Apr 03 20:56:16 Major: rsync -r /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications /media/internal/applications Apr 03 21:00:05 rwhitby, any particular reason you go the rsync route over nfs (apart from security)? Apr 03 21:00:50 (I've never used rsync btw) Apr 03 21:02:28 phil_bw: just cause I pay for cellular data by the Kb, and wifi drops when I leave the house. rsync can happen automatically using BackupPC on a NAS box Apr 03 21:02:55 oh I see Apr 03 21:03:39 I'm going to be interfacing with some Win7 systems, how does rsync work in the windows world? Apr 03 21:04:23 phil_bw: works fine Apr 03 21:04:37 hm, I'll have to look into it Apr 03 21:04:45 (modulo unix permissions and symlinks of course) Apr 03 21:05:07 phil_bw: otherwise, WinSCP is good for windows boxen to access the Pre Apr 03 21:05:44 I'm thinking of a solution to automatically pull photos off of both my wifes pre and my pre automatically at night over wifi Apr 03 21:06:01 as well as having direct access from windows whenever I need it Apr 03 21:06:47 yep, check out BackupPC for that Apr 03 21:07:14 it'll ping your Pre hourly, and rsync the delta when it finds the pre on the network Apr 03 21:07:45 rwhitby, you're resourceful Apr 03 21:08:09 you can even tell it to try during certain timeperiods, and it will only use the day period if it hasn't backed up the device in the last 24 hours (i.e. it will backup within 1 hour of returning from a holiday) Apr 03 21:08:32 that's pretty nice Apr 03 21:08:35 phil_bw: we use BackupPC for an 80 person company Apr 03 21:08:54 ah, so two Pres should be pretty easy Apr 03 21:09:18 I already use the Win7 Pro backup tools to backup the laptop to the... Apr 03 21:09:23 don't know what to call it Apr 03 21:09:30 pc with a 1TB drive plugged in Apr 03 21:09:32 heck, BackupPC could even *run* on a Pre - all it needs is Perl Apr 03 21:09:34 but it doesn't serve anything Apr 03 21:09:48 nice Apr 03 21:10:04 so in theory it could swap photos from my wifes pre to mine and back huh Apr 03 21:10:31 are there ipks for perl? Apr 03 21:10:42 not that I really want her photos, but in theory Apr 03 21:11:53 I'd probably just let it operate from my debian setup Apr 03 21:12:38 I'm finding with the power of chroot I don't even try to get things working in the palm version of linux Apr 03 21:25:17 rwhitby thanks for the info Apr 03 21:25:40 phil_bw: BackupPC is a package in debian I think Apr 03 21:26:01 rwhitby, perfect :) Apr 03 21:26:35 phil_bw: you'll get a nice web interface on the debian box to browse the incremental backups of the Pre too Apr 03 21:27:03 nice again Apr 03 21:32:48 I tried to press ctrl+c while watching a stack of paper slowly about to fall over Apr 03 21:33:02 sometimes you just need an SIGINT Apr 03 21:34:30 8192 16384 32768 65536 Apr 03 21:34:32 * zsoc ponders Apr 03 21:34:58 octal factoring is actually interesting, in a number pattern sort of way Apr 03 21:42:37 hi Apr 03 21:42:45 my name is DrFunk Apr 03 21:44:29 indeed it is Apr 03 21:44:39 is this wIRCers anonymous? Apr 03 21:44:57 zsoc: sup yes I need help Apr 03 21:45:12 I concur Apr 03 21:45:17 DrFunk: at least you're not at a baseball game Apr 03 21:45:20 halfhalo_T400: are you a developer? Apr 03 21:45:32 a developer of... what? Apr 03 21:45:42 halfhalo_T400: er.. anything webos related Apr 03 21:45:47 yes Apr 03 21:45:53 zsoc: what are you telling me ur @ a game ? Apr 03 21:46:39 I can feel my desktop getting slower as itunes installs... Apr 03 21:47:01 I bet Apr 03 21:48:51 * rwhitby bbl (time for easter egg hunt with kids) Apr 03 21:49:10 I should install eclipse... Apr 03 21:49:16 but I need to install java first Apr 03 21:50:41 Pretty much all my computers are out of commision right now... Apr 03 21:50:53 take them apart Apr 03 21:50:57 and put them back together Apr 03 21:51:01 as one super computer Apr 03 21:51:08 heh Apr 03 21:51:44 T400 is runnign trim manually, Just reinstalled desktop, and mini is being reformatted now, and C90s is.... well, somewhere Apr 03 21:52:00 halfhalo_T400: you need parts @ all ? Apr 03 21:52:12 no Apr 03 21:52:16 its all software Apr 03 21:52:27 Install linux on all of them? Apr 03 21:52:30 except for the retarted router issues, thats hardware Apr 03 21:54:16 gotta wait for thunderbird to download all my emails as well so I can find a cd key Apr 03 21:56:40 wow ur having problems today halfhalo_T400 Apr 03 21:57:01 nah, most of them went away Apr 03 21:57:13 Desktop feels squeaky clean after reformat Apr 03 21:59:38 ok, there we go Apr 03 21:59:43 email has been indexed Apr 03 22:00:33 halfhalo_T400: my linux desktop always feels squeaky clean Apr 03 22:00:55 so does my laptop Apr 03 22:00:57 in entirely unrelated news, iDisplay is an amazing idea that doesn't function in any way. Apr 03 22:01:05 I know Apr 03 22:01:22 I just can't wait for /all/ electronics to incorporate some version of WiDi that are inter compatible Apr 03 22:01:31 like TVs, for instance. Apr 03 22:01:44 well, i want a better version Apr 03 22:01:51 "Oh I want to play this movie from my Pre on my tv.... select display.. and,.. play" Apr 03 22:01:52 720p doesn't cut it Apr 03 22:01:57 and neither does the lag Apr 03 22:02:03 720p isn't bad if there was no lag Apr 03 22:02:12 but there is lag... Apr 03 22:02:16 streaming is getting there tho, actually I think jpeg2000 is pretty scalable Apr 03 22:02:25 yeah Apr 03 22:02:30 and there's something new coming out in the security industry that is suppose to do 4k Apr 03 22:02:44 honestly, everything should support dnla or whatever it is Apr 03 22:03:20 I agree something /like/ dnla Apr 03 22:03:23 Its just nice to open the windows network window and see all my devices Apr 03 22:03:39 I mean there's multiple ways to look at it. There is an advantage to using common protocols vs common architectures Apr 03 22:03:41 only reason I say dnla is due to the amount of devices with it out there now Apr 03 22:03:58 If you're only forcing a company to commit to a single protocol, there's less pressure to fight a standard Apr 03 22:06:54 vs. joining an 'alliance' :p Apr 03 22:06:59 which then becomes political Apr 03 22:08:47 hmm? Apr 03 22:08:56 sorry, switched monitor to mini Apr 03 22:09:49 lol n/m Apr 03 22:09:56 i got to get crackin' on this mojo Apr 03 22:10:03 for what? Apr 03 22:10:08 ... my app Apr 03 22:10:18 which is Apr 03 22:10:28 ... Apr 03 22:10:30 none of your business Apr 03 22:10:33 xD Apr 03 22:10:36 precorder Apr 03 22:11:16 ewwww Apr 03 22:11:19 wewewew Apr 03 22:11:29 JUST KIDDING! Apr 03 22:12:02 hey, minis finally finished with setup Apr 03 22:12:20 now I can mirror the desktop to both the displays and use my main for my desktop Apr 03 22:21:33 oil: ping Apr 03 22:22:14 oil: so I'm thinking of a Preware cookie that saves the list of packages installed, and then save/restore can save and restore that cookie (as well as maybe the palm profile saving it) Apr 03 22:22:32 hmmmmm Apr 03 22:22:38 I don't know if that would work Apr 03 22:22:40 then we just need two menu commands - one to save current list of packages to the cookie, and one to install the list of packages from the cookie Apr 03 22:23:41 then we just need to be able to swipe to delete in the connected packages list Apr 03 22:23:44 I think that the size of the cookie < data with installed apps Apr 03 22:25:10 * rwhitby goes to read the webOS book for cookie stuff Apr 03 22:25:55 Hmmm Apr 03 22:26:02 They are limited to 4KB in size Apr 03 22:28:23 The question is, can you fit every installable package's data into one cookie? Apr 03 22:32:43 airmack: did you dump on lo on the pre as well? Apr 03 22:33:28 sbromwich: no i guess the email wizard is just not accepting any ip from a virtual network Apr 03 22:33:49 sucky :-/ Apr 03 23:11:14 so a Depot is what I want, rather than a cookie Apr 03 23:11:23 Yeah Apr 03 23:18:32 * oil hates depot Apr 03 23:27:14 oil: why? Apr 03 23:28:25 idk, i just do Apr 03 23:28:26 lol Apr 03 23:29:04 it seems to be the best choice to store the list of installed packages into a Depot, so that Save/Restore can save and restore that, and so that Preware can reinstall from that list Apr 03 23:35:52 oil: any idea why the "Later" option for LunaRestart pauses for so long Apr 03 23:37:37 rwhitby: I was literally about to propose that question as well Apr 03 23:42:03 it looks like it returns 'skip' to actionMessage() Apr 03 23:42:37 ok, I think I want a "Saved Package List" row in the main screen, with "Update" and "Install" buttons in it. It starts off disabled, and you go into it and hit "Update" to update the saved list from the list of currently installed packages. That saves the list in a Depot. If the Depot already has a saved list, that list is loaded when you enter that scene. The "Install" button then does an install all on that list. Apr 03 23:43:10 oil: er... if I see correctly, it doesn't look like 'Later' is actually handled... at all. Apr 03 23:43:33 Then there is a preference setting to automatically keep the saved list in sync when you install or remove a package. Apr 03 23:43:47 is there already a good xmpp/jabber client available? Apr 03 23:44:12 rwhitby, im pretty sure i said something about it Apr 03 23:44:18 i think its the rescan command Apr 03 23:44:27 since its done at the end no matter what Apr 03 23:44:34 oil: ah, ok. Apr 03 23:44:44 maybe rescan isn't needed anymore Apr 03 23:44:47 and should just be removed Apr 03 23:44:51 or replaced with the correcet action Apr 03 23:44:52 idk Apr 03 23:46:54 or don't wait for it to return Apr 03 23:47:37 i dont think it does Apr 03 23:47:46 it just calls it and moves on Apr 03 23:48:10 brb, breakfast Apr 03 23:49:17 so should a "Saved Package List" row go above or below the "List of Everything" ? Apr 04 00:03:09 rwhitby: below, after a separator of some sort Apr 04 00:04:33 why a separator? Apr 04 00:05:35 Well it doesn't really involve seeing installed packages or finding packages to install, while is classic Preware functionality Apr 04 00:06:03 s/while/which/ Apr 04 00:06:04 zsoc meant: Well it doesn't really involve seeing installed packages or finding packages to install, which is classic Preware functionality Apr 04 00:06:22 zsoc: sure it finds packages to install - the list of packages you saved Apr 04 00:06:36 which you can then install Apr 04 00:06:46 Ok, that's fair... but I don't think "Update" is the proper verbiage Apr 04 00:07:03 More like "Save currently installed" Apr 04 00:07:04 agreed - what's a better word Apr 04 00:07:08 "Export" Apr 04 00:07:11 if you need something short Apr 04 00:07:36 Import, Export, Install Apr 04 00:08:03 maybe that's backwards, Export would actually bring packages INTO that list, from the users point of view Apr 04 00:08:07 * zsoc ponders Apr 04 00:08:17 it's the "Saved Package List" - you update that list, or you install that list. Apr 04 00:08:28 Heya... anyone in .au here with TPG for mobile? Apr 04 00:08:32 "Save Current"? Apr 04 00:09:11 Maybe Update and Install, it's a tough call. Apr 04 00:09:16 We need to ask an old lady. Apr 04 00:15:11 so yay or nay 800mhz 1.4.1? Apr 04 00:16:00 rwhitby: I have a diff for configs-assistant.js that has a stab at implementing a proper URL filter Apr 04 00:16:04 yay 800mhz 1.4.1 Apr 04 00:16:19 rwhitby: would you like to take a look at it? Apr 04 00:17:28 no terrible repercussions? Apr 04 00:17:33 sorry, a diff for confgis-assistant.js for alpha preware Apr 04 00:17:40 no Apr 04 00:18:00 thank god... its like once you run that speed you never want to go back Apr 04 00:18:16 I've had a couple of crashes but they're reasonably replicable so I suspect I have a shonky patch installed Apr 04 00:18:33 oh, and ondemand CPU scheduler, not the stock palm one, I found Apr 04 00:19:13 So are we saying 800 is out for 1.4.1, and its all good so far? Apr 04 00:19:27 Got an issue with a patch post-upgrade. 'unreversed patch detected!' Apr 04 00:19:40 i see on the forums how to work ipkg to remove/upgrade it, but it says 'nothing to do' Apr 04 00:19:43 I am saying I am running the 800 mhz kernel on 1.4.1 without any problems Apr 04 00:19:53 I dont think its out.. but the old patch is okay from what I hear... Apr 04 00:20:04 can't remove it either. patch 'org.webosinternals.patches.screen-lock-no-auto-off-while-charging' Apr 04 00:20:08 Once its official I'll reinstall but I need 800mhz Apr 04 00:20:09 it's not so much a patch as a new kernel; 1.4.1 is not a kernel update. Apr 04 00:20:12 tried emergency patch installer, and emergency file verification Apr 04 00:20:22 What is the name of the patch that will warn you when its temp gets too high? Apr 04 00:20:51 dunno, I just wrote a perl script to throttle and it's never been an issue for me Apr 04 00:21:52 I'm not that cool :) Apr 04 00:22:19 http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/239159-huge-battery-improvement-after-800-mhz-patch-2.html has details on the sysfs settings I'm using if you want to try them out Apr 04 00:22:58 I'm not cool enough for gui programming, I do everything from bash Apr 04 00:24:40 Can anyone tell me where this patch lives? I tried 'ipkg -o /var remove org.webosinternals.patches.screen-lock-no-auto-off-while-charging' but this didn't help. I think i have '-o /var' wrong? Apr 04 00:24:42 so I dont know if its a bug but my menu doesnt come up for usb or just charge after doing 800mhz.. weird.. gonna restart one more time Apr 04 00:25:01 sbromwich: sure - what's the URL of your diff? Apr 04 00:25:27 file:///var/lib/svn/preware-test/ ;-) Apr 04 00:25:37 let me just find somewhere online Apr 04 00:26:06 sbromwich: actually, 1.4.1 included a kernel update, but the changes seem small enough not to stop the device booting Apr 04 00:26:11 whats good Apr 04 00:26:29 oc80z: "Saved Package List" in Preware for Save/Restore to use Apr 04 00:26:34 rwhitby: ping Apr 04 00:26:41 uNiXpSyChO: syn|ack Apr 04 00:26:42 nice!! Apr 04 00:27:01 oc80z: not ready yet, just working on it. Apr 04 00:27:04 :) Apr 04 00:27:05 http://www.fop.ns.ca/configs-assistant.js.diff Apr 04 00:27:18 rwhitby: is the autobuilder ready? I dont remember where we left off on that discussion Apr 04 00:27:18 it's still the same core kernel - the symbols don't appear to have changed Apr 04 00:27:21 how long can i delay the 1.4.1.1 installation Apr 04 00:27:31 http://www.fop.ns.ca/configs-assistant.js is the full thing Apr 04 00:27:46 I would also emphasis that's proof of concept and I don't know enough JS to actually test it out Apr 04 00:28:03 sbromwich: looks good - want commit access now? Apr 04 00:28:09 crossed fingers it should work but I just used grep style regexes and escaped the buggery out of it Apr 04 00:28:21 thanks but no thanks - after monday you probably won't see me for quite a while :-) Apr 04 00:28:46 what's monday? Apr 04 00:29:05 day after sunday? Apr 04 00:29:15 easter monday, then I'm back to work - I run the big iron that runs the local health authority so I get very little free time. Apr 04 00:29:25 ahhh okay Apr 04 00:30:23 Any way to get around unplugging the wire from my computer if I restart the pre while its connected to USB? Apr 04 00:30:53 dBsooner: ping Apr 04 00:31:57 sslow_: haven't see dBsooner for some time Apr 04 00:31:57 brb Apr 04 00:32:48 what do you want to unplug the wire for? Apr 04 00:32:48 rwhitby: maybe a dinosaur ate him. Apr 04 00:32:58 are you talking hard reset, pull the battery? Apr 04 00:33:02 rwhitby: me either ....i need to update 6 0r so patches and didnt want to wait 5 mins between Apr 04 00:34:04 rwhitby: did he give up on us? lol Apr 04 00:34:12 sslow_: no idea Apr 04 00:34:48 oh, I do hope GreedyB wasn't ircing off his phone there when he reset. Apr 04 00:35:06 rwhitby: can you disable the 5 min wait or do we just have to deal? Apr 04 00:35:33 sslow_: I don't have access to that server, unfortunately Apr 04 00:35:50 rwhitby: k thanks anyway Apr 04 00:36:23 rwhitby: anybody else? egaudet maybe? Apr 04 00:36:54 anyone know why the brightness in device menu has so many conflicts with other patches? it's really irking me that i need to choose between important patches. if this isn't the right place to ask, please let me know. Apr 04 00:37:28 seb_or_sam: JayCanuck would probably be the one who has done the most work in that area Apr 04 00:37:38 seb_or_sam: it's simply because none of the top-bar patch authors have taken the time to do it right and combine all those patches into a single patch with a preferences panel Apr 04 00:38:11 they are all MIT licensed, so any mojo developer could do it Apr 04 00:38:14 thanks rwhitby zsoc|food Apr 04 00:38:20 true Apr 04 00:38:45 just needs someone to step up and take the initiative Apr 04 00:38:50 rwhitby: thats an idea. a mojo gui that creates a custom top menu patch Apr 04 00:38:51 i can't write code though... i'm just a command line geek. guess i'll have to see what devs have done Apr 04 00:39:06 maybe it's time i learn :) Apr 04 00:39:16 the brightness in device menu patch was the first of my top bar patches. All subsiquent device menu patches were created for intercompatability after that Apr 04 00:39:47 JayCanuck: i literally can't live without brightness in device menu, it's pretty much the best. Apr 04 00:40:04 zsoc: I bet you could if you really tried. Apr 04 00:40:30 JayCanuck I love the patch, and it's one of my favorites, but it does cause some conflicts with other patches (flashlight, media volume...) Apr 04 00:40:38 the gps in device menu and flashlight in device menu are near-copies of eachother, which is why they're incompatible Apr 04 00:40:45 sbromwich: that's fairly existential Apr 04 00:41:10 i'll uninstall the GPS toggle then. it's not essential Apr 04 00:41:12 * sbromwich passes zsoc a towel for comfort Apr 04 00:41:13 thanks Apr 04 00:41:30 * zsoc hugs the towel Apr 04 00:41:34 bless. Apr 04 00:41:56 install brightness one first and the rest should apply fine (with the exception of media volume, as that patch wasn't done by me and the author may have been less trimmed than my others, overlapping in code, which is what causes the conflicts Apr 04 00:42:13 irc would be better if it included a mud like library for item handling and inventory Apr 04 00:42:25 *author may have made the patch less trimmed Apr 04 00:42:41 good grief, zsoc, you just brought back memories of far too many hours wasted on abermud. Apr 04 00:42:41 JayCanuck Ok then. sounds good. Apr 04 00:43:02 sbromwich: lol, discworld and looney here :) Apr 04 00:43:41 zsoc: I was led astray mere days after getting my 24 hour access card at swansea by alan cox into the world of irc and mud Apr 04 00:43:54 though, as rod said, I made my patches opensource, so any developers can integrate in in a control-panel style patch :) I tried to relieve such a need with my mixes Apr 04 00:44:21 btw, JayCanuck, just installed your temperature-with-battery-in-device-menu patch and love it Apr 04 00:45:01 yea, I had to be careful with that one to not conflict; between all the device menu patches, untouched space is getting sparcer and sparcer, lol Apr 04 00:45:08 i'm too picky for mixes ;) they're great for most people, but i'm far too OCD ;) Apr 04 00:45:41 i can imagine :) Apr 04 00:47:33 now i'm taking another look at the mixes... hmmm Apr 04 00:51:09 now it says the error is an md5sum mismatch... perplexing Apr 04 01:01:37 jacques : it turns out we have a bad mobo Apr 04 01:02:34 sbromwich: Wait, you got your first access from Alan Cox? Now that's impressive. Apr 04 01:03:19 dunno if that would be your segfaults Apr 04 01:04:27 sbromwich: i just realized what you said Apr 04 01:05:08 yeah, I went to swansea uni Apr 04 01:05:25 he looked much the same then as he does now, except his clothing was a little more... deshabille Apr 04 01:05:40 hm, wow Apr 04 01:06:11 and his personal grooming habits left something to be desired in the nasal area Apr 04 01:06:14 very sharp guy though Apr 04 01:06:31 you think? lol Apr 04 01:06:39 celebrities don't phase me, seeing that guy might Apr 04 01:06:51 * rwhitby has the UI for saved package list working, now for the functionality Apr 04 01:07:00 yeah, this was... oooh, 1991, just before he started looking at linux Apr 04 01:07:14 he was busy with abermud and running the SUCS server Apr 04 01:07:40 and I think he was employed by IT at swansea because he didn't want to go get a proper job and also knew more than them about the network Apr 04 01:08:13 lol Apr 04 01:08:16 after that I think he went off with justin and dick to go start cymru.net, then redhat after that Apr 04 01:08:32 long time ago now though. Apr 04 01:08:53 and it is sadly no longer possible to get a pint of beer for 60p. Apr 04 01:09:18 * rwhitby bbl - some real life gardening is requested Apr 04 01:09:27 good luck on that one Apr 04 01:10:33 Saved Package List UI is in git for anyone who is interested Apr 04 01:10:41 sbromwich: you missed sbromwich's alan cox story lol Apr 04 01:10:56 and if anyone wants to add the Depot code while I'm gardening, that'd be cool too ;-) Apr 04 01:11:07 good grief... I even remembered my old username there, cs9h1ssb Apr 04 01:16:27 wow I didn't know alan cox was involved with abermud Apr 04 01:16:40 He was /slightly/ involved, lol Apr 04 01:17:03 I actually played discworld on Terminal on my Pre was awhile Apr 04 01:17:06 good enough to run some macros Apr 04 01:17:21 * zsoc makes a webos-only mud, releases it in the catalog for free Apr 04 01:17:25 I used to work on the mudos driver Apr 04 01:17:50 zsoc: and I've often thought irc would be cooler with mud features :-) Apr 04 01:18:05 how could it not be? :D Apr 04 01:18:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AberMUD Apr 04 01:18:28 would be even more fun than tormenting the bots Apr 04 01:18:48 aberystwyth (aka aber) is just up the road from swansea, hence a lot of cross-polination Apr 04 01:20:26 oh good grief, michael lawrie, I remember getting horridly drunk with him at the annual swansea SUCS "let's have a fire on the beach and draw pentagrams to piss off the christians" party Apr 04 01:21:03 ha Apr 04 01:36:39 blimey, here's some history from swansea: http://twenty.sucs.org/History/Hardware Apr 04 01:36:51 I remember having to pull the string on galaxy myself a couple of times. Apr 04 01:46:20 hello everyone Apr 04 01:46:52 anyone there? Apr 04 01:47:12 wow Apr 04 01:47:23 that might be a new record Apr 04 01:48:51 ? Apr 04 01:49:27 Incredibly stupid question of the day: I know WebOS obviously has JavaScript... but can it do Java (on webpages)? Apr 04 01:52:29 *cricket noises* Apr 04 01:53:24 it appears it does? Apr 04 01:53:24 /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5-palm/bin/java -Xexact -m 10M -Djava.library.path=/usr/lib/jvm/ Apr 04 02:02:21 lingfish, on webpage, nope Apr 04 02:02:44 hmm. Ta. Apr 04 02:04:40 wow. Apr 04 02:04:51 1.4.1.1 just installed w/o my confirmation Apr 04 02:05:11 i even pulled the batt on it... great. Apr 04 02:05:31 wont be surprised if everything works perfectly Apr 04 02:06:19 -m 10M :) Apr 04 02:07:24 lingfish: who need's java when we have html5? ;) Apr 04 02:08:19 you think so zsoc? Apr 04 02:08:43 zsoc: heh. I do, cos I wanna view my uTorrent remotely ;) Apr 04 02:08:58 u know in the enterprise world, java is solid. Apr 04 02:09:21 ...meanwhile, youtube.com/html5 is alive. Apr 04 02:09:25 lingfish: Xsdl Apr 04 02:09:34 oc80z: sorry, the wink meant what i said was surreptitiously facetious Apr 04 02:09:56 tmzt_: huh?! Apr 04 02:10:16 hm... yes.. java in firefox Apr 04 02:10:20 no way, i read in to it... you saw the quake2 port in h5 right? Apr 04 02:10:30 what OS is uTorrent running on? Apr 04 02:10:37 win7 :/ Apr 04 02:10:44 well wait, it'll only run on doze Apr 04 02:10:46 check your firewall Apr 04 02:12:01 tmzt_: ?!?! :P Apr 04 02:12:28 oh, uTorrent is only for Windows? Apr 04 02:12:31 I didn't know that Apr 04 02:12:40 Last I checked it was.. linux via wine Apr 04 02:15:16 Just run transmission Apr 04 02:15:26 It can do most of what utorrent can and also has a web interface Apr 04 02:15:31 transmission++ Apr 04 02:16:11 "most" Apr 04 02:16:28 chrisa: I've been trying to get why Palm doesn't have temporary profiles for in store demos Apr 04 02:16:43 and how they can position Pre/Pixi as a facebook device without it Apr 04 02:20:33 I can't even begin to have any idea how that could be related to me :) Apr 04 02:20:58 nah, so when the other guys drop into irc I'll tell them :) Apr 04 02:21:18 since they don't read Engadget comments, Facebook or twitter Apr 04 02:21:42 but keeping open hardware is in my interest too and the street thinks you guys are toasty Apr 04 02:23:30 I don't think I've ever seen thestreet be right in respect to us Apr 04 02:23:44 chrisa: the street is unfortunately important to consumers Apr 04 02:24:32 I'm just a systems guy. Beyond checking the stock price I stick my head in the sand for all else Apr 04 02:24:55 I talk to carrier (store/retail) people all the time Apr 04 02:25:02 * zsoc changes zinge's nick to zinge_wirc Apr 04 02:25:07 evaluating devices, evaluating sales approaches Apr 04 02:25:20 tmzt_: you know, there are some channels that have no Pre's left... Apr 04 02:25:22 and you guys even are doing the ambassedor thing Apr 04 02:25:30 Pre's or Pre Plus's? Apr 04 02:25:34 Pre's Apr 04 02:25:41 some channels don't carry Pre Plus' Apr 04 02:25:47 they are selling Apr 04 02:25:55 I don't get why some people don't get that Apr 04 02:26:03 but they don't sell themselves and they should Apr 04 02:26:20 but they only usable apps are memo and calendar, which is the same lineup as the Palm Apr 04 02:26:20 Pre's are in 'groups'. Like I know 12 people with them, all my fault. Apr 04 02:27:00 so the connected device aspect is lost on potential customers who look at the Pre and then walk over to the Hero or the Blackberry Apr 04 02:27:07 or maybe the LG Touch Apr 04 02:27:19 (because it's good enough and data is cheap) Apr 04 02:27:27 the lg touch.. what? Apr 04 02:27:33 uh, forget the name Apr 04 02:27:41 there's Chocolate Touch and one other Apr 04 02:27:41 Verizon or Sprint? Apr 04 02:27:44 Verizon Apr 04 02:27:45 sorry Apr 04 02:27:45 ENV Apr 04 02:27:48 yeah Apr 04 02:27:51 Rumor Touch for sprint Apr 04 02:28:50 It's easy to attach certain devices to certain consumers. Apr 04 02:29:16 Many consumers are easily attachable to Blackberry OS and Android Apr 04 02:29:23 and people get iPhone's just because they are iPhone's Apr 04 02:29:45 sheep Apr 04 02:29:47 brainless sheep. Apr 04 02:29:51 neither Verizon or Sprint sell iPhones so I exclude those from my survey, at&t isn't in any of my malls etc. Apr 04 02:30:23 tmzt_: many channels sell 3 carriers, particularly one's that offer INSTANT REBATES instead of mail in Apr 04 02:30:24 sturgeon's law in full flow Apr 04 02:30:29 tmzt_: ie: Best Buy, Radio Shack, Walmart Apr 04 02:31:04 Would you rather pay $250 for 2 blackberries with $200 mail in rebates or $50 in store? Apr 04 02:31:30 It makes cross-carrier phones relevant Apr 04 02:31:33 BestBuy used to push how hands on their displays are Apr 04 02:31:42 then they kept the phones nonfunctional Apr 04 02:31:48 I there a way to manually remove the ipkg for a patch? Apr 04 02:31:50 also too low for me, but that's besides the point Apr 04 02:32:05 tmzt_: legally they have to be below 38" according to the ADA Apr 04 02:32:09 wheelchairs. Apr 04 02:32:15 yeah Apr 04 02:33:17 Walmart has the best upgrade pricing, Best Buy has the best selection and in store inventory, and Radio Shack has the best new commitment pricing. Apr 04 02:33:24 historically Apr 04 02:35:25 shit... every tech website is writing abput ipad i'm sick of it already... Apr 04 02:35:44 That's what I meant by some channels.. national retail. They are almost entirely out of Sprint Pre's. All the one's left are stuck up in Corporate and Private Dealer Sprint stores Apr 04 02:36:08 en0x: you have been officially invited to the unofficial official webos-internations wiki maintainers team Apr 04 02:36:51 lol Apr 04 02:36:56 what for? Apr 04 02:37:00 zsoc: I don't see serious smartphones at Wal-Mart Apr 04 02:37:07 but I might not be looking hard enough Apr 04 02:37:15 they also don't seem to know anything about the data plans Apr 04 02:37:21 tmzt_: it heavily depends on region, but for the most part you're right Apr 04 02:37:47 en0x: to maintain our wiki and be a useful part of the community. it's... old, and unmaintained by the busy developers Apr 04 02:38:07 zsoc, i get boring quickly :P Apr 04 02:38:18 s/boring/bored/ Apr 04 02:38:18 en0x meant: zsoc, i get bored quickly :P Apr 04 02:38:21 en0x: your primary job will be to recruit other non-developer webos-internals fans to help maintain it, by updating articles which are currently outdated Apr 04 02:38:33 lol Apr 04 02:38:39 will i make $$$? :> Apr 04 02:38:46 en0x: you will make pride in your work Apr 04 02:38:50 and self respect Apr 04 02:39:03 i got a lot of self respect Apr 04 02:39:05 :) Apr 04 02:39:06 more Apr 04 02:39:15 and beer, if you're ever down this way :p Apr 04 02:39:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siOHh0uzcuY Apr 04 02:39:48 html5, derishus Apr 04 02:39:50 buehehe Apr 04 02:40:07 quake 2 in html5 r00x Apr 04 02:40:18 en0x: compile it for the pre? Apr 04 02:40:19 yeah... Apr 04 02:40:29 compile it/ Apr 04 02:40:29 intresting is the geotagging api features in html5 Apr 04 02:40:40 zsoc, lol? u just need html5 compatible browser Apr 04 02:40:48 and webgl Apr 04 02:40:54 but Pre doesn't even have redirected gl Apr 04 02:40:54 i was referring to the google code Apr 04 02:41:03 hmm Apr 04 02:41:06 right, html5 Apr 04 02:41:08 it has multi context though so that could work but I don't think it's implemented Apr 04 02:41:09 define redirected gl Apr 04 02:41:36 oh right, the browser would have to have access to gl through webgl Apr 04 02:41:37 meaning something proxies the GL commands through the display server, supporting multiple applications simultaneously Apr 04 02:41:41 assuming there is even a webgles standard Apr 04 02:41:49 https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/doc/spec/WebGL-spec.html? Apr 04 02:41:56 http://people.mozilla.com/~vladimir/jsvec/TypedArray-spec.html? Apr 04 02:42:01 muzt be. Apr 04 02:42:38 oh, it does support ES 2.0 Apr 04 02:42:39 nice Apr 04 02:42:52 GL is finally becoming combined Apr 04 02:43:05 webgl is gles Apr 04 02:43:09 daddy + es + web are all coming back to the same method/api's in future versions, and some in current versions Apr 04 02:43:13 tmzt_: that makes sense then :p Apr 04 02:43:14 web workers Apr 04 02:43:15 daddy? Apr 04 02:43:21 running javascript in the background Apr 04 02:43:23 daddy gl.. you know. openGL Apr 04 02:43:28 ah Apr 04 02:43:40 just simplifying binary data Apr 04 02:43:44 i need a beer.. but the frige it.. so... far Apr 04 02:44:00 zsoc is sooo lazy :D Apr 04 02:44:15 xD Apr 04 02:44:33 wow Apr 04 02:44:52 scary to see where palm's web browser is headed. Apr 04 02:45:12 (firefox) Apr 04 02:46:03 * mjkjr is going to the fridge now Apr 04 02:46:39 * mjkjr grabs two beers and hands one to zsoc Apr 04 02:47:03 yay Apr 04 02:55:43 firefox? Apr 04 02:56:26 well Apr 04 02:56:54 im 3 or 5 years from now. Apr 04 02:57:17 we will see firefox hop on to mobile devices Apr 04 02:57:33 or will we see google chrome open source. Apr 04 02:58:55 if palm has 780 developers Apr 04 02:59:37 I'd like chrome for my Pre Apr 04 02:59:44 ;) Apr 04 02:59:49 or my iPad Apr 04 02:59:51 i'd like palm developers to develop webos **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 04 02:59:58 2010