**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Apr 05 02:59:56 2010 Apr 05 03:00:08 there's also the fact they're using sodding insulating material on top of the cpu Apr 05 03:00:20 someone deserves a kick up the jacksie for that one Apr 05 03:01:01 Why does this anger you? Apr 05 03:01:56 I used to work for palm so I know what they should be capable of Apr 05 03:01:58 well... usr Apr 05 03:02:01 or 3com Apr 05 03:02:06 or whoever the hell they are these days Apr 05 03:02:27 I would have thought *someone* would have learnt the less from spiral death syndrome Apr 05 03:02:32 ^less^lesson Apr 05 03:02:37 Apr 05 03:03:25 But wouldn't the insulation be acting as a heat dissipator? Apr 05 03:03:46 or heatsink Apr 05 03:04:33 ish Apr 05 03:04:36 *very* ish Apr 05 03:04:55 but for all the good it does it might as well be a few sheets of paper Apr 05 03:05:08 So what would you have done? Apr 05 03:05:48 first batch I would have buggered about with trying to overheat and then supercool with freeze spray to stress the buggery out of them Apr 05 03:06:06 that would have shown which chips were most voonerable to thermal stresses Apr 05 03:06:26 there's a ddr chip sitting on top of the omap .. not much you can really do to help dissipate that heat other than a heat slug on the bottom of the pcb which they left bare anyway Apr 05 03:06:30 then I would have looked into putting a static insulated heatsink over the relvant chips (my guess is CPU and/or voltage regulator) Apr 05 03:07:32 Right. Nice. Apr 05 03:08:53 and I'm not tempted to disassemble my phone to make sure but looking at the photos on the rapidrepair.com disassembly it looks like there's plenty of space Apr 05 03:09:33 plenty of space on the pcb ? Apr 05 03:09:45 Yeah. I love my phone. Have always loved Palm. I just get this.. itchy feeling... like, "Shit shit shit, cmon guys, just do this this way, and that that way and you'll KILL it..." Apr 05 03:09:55 Kinda like a "sooooooo close!" Apr 05 03:09:57 http://www.rapidrepair.com/guides/Palm-Pre/palm-pre-dissasembly-repair-guide.html Apr 05 03:10:30 yeah, the pre is *very* close to what I dreamt of when the first beta palm pilot arrived in the uk Apr 05 03:11:09 For me its pretty much spot on what I've always wanted from a smartphone. I meant more for them to survive. Apr 05 03:12:16 sbromwich: you really think that pcb is not cramped beyond belief ? Apr 05 03:12:23 yeah, I hope so too... They had an absolute pile in their warchest last time I was talking to anyone over there but that was a while ago now Apr 05 03:12:24 nup Apr 05 03:12:31 I used to work on pcmcia modems though Apr 05 03:12:52 sbromwich: pile in their warchest? Meaning a lot of work? Apr 05 03:13:06 so you do realize those are 0201 or 01005 resistors ? Apr 05 03:13:06 $$$ Apr 05 03:13:15 ah. Apr 05 03:13:29 which "those"? Apr 05 03:13:45 choose any resistor .. heh Apr 05 03:14:06 no, I left the embedded systems world in 1996 Apr 05 03:14:48 I can recognise the SMT as SMT stuff but I would have to go reference the relevant bits to see what their capabilities and restrictions were Apr 05 03:15:50 See, I've just had to grab the epitome of evil, my work Samsung f'ing Winmo phone... my GOD what an example of evil. Apr 05 03:16:06 my last phone was a windows phone. Apr 05 03:16:07 it sucked. Apr 05 03:16:29 voice services at my DHA tried to force me to get a blackberry but I refused Apr 05 03:16:30 oh I hate this phone soooooooooo so much Apr 05 03:17:06 mine was an htc... I had to press the sym key so hard to make it work it ended up cracking in half Apr 05 03:18:22 oh, and the registry (or whatever it was) would corrupt itself on a near-monthly basis, forcing a wipe and reinstall Apr 05 03:18:41 and not to mention broken event notifications Apr 05 03:18:47 fortunately I have a funambol server at home so I could at least sync all my stuff up Apr 05 03:18:51 oh my god yes. Apr 05 03:18:59 my pre is the closest thing to "it" since my psion 3 and 3a. Apr 05 03:19:07 it just could not cope with the fact I'm UTV-4 Apr 05 03:19:13 UTC, rather Apr 05 03:19:27 psion... that's going back a while Apr 05 03:19:28 have they fixed alarms on winmo yet? was a wtf ~10 years ago that you couldn't trust the alarm clock. Apr 05 03:19:49 they *usually* worked. Apr 05 03:19:50 my psions were wonderful devices, well the 3 series. Apr 05 03:20:07 heh Apr 05 03:20:15 I remember some of the later models being a little... odd Apr 05 03:20:22 the... 5, was it? Apr 05 03:21:35 the 5 was big, i had one. the 3 could run 40 hours on 2xaa, built in apps were good, could multi-task (only one process could have the display at a time though) and came with a simple programming language built-in. Apr 05 03:21:44 and there was another one from hp around the same time with a weird slide-out mouse that was quite good, too Apr 05 03:22:17 for me, anyway - it had a built in serial port so I could go on site to test (say) a courier modem on an as/400 in leased line mode Apr 05 03:22:18 the 40 hours was usage time, so it could go weeks. Apr 05 03:22:36 yeah, I remember several devices like that Apr 05 03:22:42 didn't tandy make one way back when too? Apr 05 03:22:45 i used the psion to boot big sgi boxen. Apr 05 03:22:57 ISTR one with a 4 or 5 line display Apr 05 03:23:13 and it had an acoustic coupler. Apr 05 03:23:23 there's 2 words I haven't had to use in a hell of a long time. Apr 05 03:23:26 cause they never booted cleanly and the terminals were always off somewhere. Apr 05 03:23:36 heh Apr 05 03:23:46 yeah, that sounds like SGI ;-) Apr 05 03:24:23 I remember them being ever so proud about having SGIs at Pipex until I asked them to reboot their dev box Apr 05 03:24:33 things suddenly got a little... negative ;-) Apr 05 03:26:10 they were nice boxes, but i never understood using them as shell account boxes. doing multi-pipe graphics or crunching, now that i was a good use. r8k and r10k were beasts for fp in the day. Apr 05 03:26:31 could anyone help me get preware working? Apr 05 03:26:37 i've tried every type of install Apr 05 03:26:50 mmm... I always found sun to be the best for lots of shell users Apr 05 03:27:32 * dreadchicken agrees with sbromwich Apr 05 03:27:37 hOoLiGaN`: are you in dev mode ok? Apr 05 03:28:03 SGI certainly did some nice graphics though Apr 05 03:28:23 and their cases were really nice pieces of design work, if a little gaudy on occasion Apr 05 03:29:10 * sbromwich wonders if he's turned this place into an old sysadmin's retirement home or something ;-) Apr 05 03:29:30 Ah man, don't even get me started on all the oldschool kit ;) Apr 05 03:30:25 well, I just managed to pawn off my apollo workstation, and the random collection of sparc classics, but I've still got the HP D370 downstairs Apr 05 03:31:14 and the HP... 710? workstation Apr 05 03:31:19 Someone help hOoLiGaN` :P Apr 05 03:31:34 however, if someone wants to come to halifax to pick up more old crap... ;-) Apr 05 03:31:39 And stop pining over HP9000's ;) Apr 05 03:31:53 lingfish: I already asked him if he was in dev mode OK without an answer that I can see Apr 05 03:32:11 oh heh Apr 05 03:32:14 I'm not pining so much as looking for a way to get rid of the crap in my basement without having to pay the recycling fee ;-) Apr 05 03:32:21 yes sbrowmich i am Apr 05 03:32:42 unless it is possible to reset itself Apr 05 03:32:44 hOoLiGaN`: can you run novaterm and get to the root prompt ok? Apr 05 03:32:57 yes 1 sec Apr 05 03:32:58 sbromwich: instead of pulling the battery, hold down power and toggle the mute switch three times Apr 05 03:33:26 ok i am in root Apr 05 03:33:49 with great power comes great responsibility. Apr 05 03:34:09 rwhitby: does that override the fact I've hung the kernel? Apr 05 03:34:31 i dont have preware installed atm Apr 05 03:34:36 i did the 1.4.1.1 update Apr 05 03:34:37 hOoLiGaN`: Read all of http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Preware#Installing_Preware_from_Terminal.2C_Novaterm_or_WebOS_Quick_Install_.22Linux_Commandline.22 Apr 05 03:34:39 and haven't tried again Apr 05 03:34:53 sbromwich: it's the next step up from orange+sym+r, but may not fix a badly hung kernel Apr 05 03:34:55 and then run the shell script it tells you Apr 05 03:34:57 i've used bootstrap Apr 05 03:34:58 twice Apr 05 03:35:03 with no success Apr 05 03:35:05 oh, this is hung hard enough to kill ssh and novaterm Apr 05 03:35:36 hOoLiGaN`: please try reading http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html instead Apr 05 03:36:06 :/ Apr 05 03:36:28 ? Apr 05 03:37:12 hOoLiGaN`: what's in /tmp/preware-bootstrap.log ? paste it on webos.pastebin.com Apr 05 03:37:36 ok let me re-install it Apr 05 03:37:40 preware that is Apr 05 03:39:25 Apr 4 22:42:09 itssab-aspire novacomd: error reading packet, shutting down, rc: -1, errno 19 Apr 05 03:39:35 that looks like a typical error that tells me it's time for a battery pull Apr 05 03:40:19 itssab@itssab-aspire:/var/log$ grep -c "novacomd: error reading packet, shutting down" messages Apr 05 03:40:19 91 Apr 05 03:40:19 itssab@itssab-aspire:/var/log$ Apr 05 03:41:01 as you can see, it's happened a few times. Apr 05 03:41:39 when installing via novaterm Apr 05 03:41:45 and it asks: Apr 05 03:42:02 Would you like to include any alpha Preware/IPKGService releases for this install/update Y/N? Apr 05 03:42:30 which... should i choose Apr 05 03:42:36 i've tried both with no success previously Apr 05 03:43:21 how do you know it did not succeed? Apr 05 03:43:43 the first time when i ran preware i was getting an ipkg undefined blah blah blah error Apr 05 03:43:50 the second time i chose no Apr 05 03:43:54 and preware would start Apr 05 03:43:58 but wouldn't isntall apps Apr 05 03:44:03 I bet you a beer it didn't say "blah blah". Apr 05 03:44:17 yeah i know Apr 05 03:44:26 my memory isn't exact though Apr 05 03:44:28 ok Apr 05 03:44:28 i sincerely apologize Apr 05 03:44:31 np Apr 05 03:44:45 did you try again selecting "Y"? Apr 05 03:45:02 yes that was when i selected Y Apr 05 03:45:06 i was given that error Apr 05 03:45:40 see if you can replicate and get the exact error message? Apr 05 03:45:54 ok one second i just finished re-installing Apr 05 03:45:59 ok Apr 05 03:46:12 give your phone a full reboot just for fun. Apr 05 03:46:28 oh i just restarted luna Apr 05 03:46:57 ok, reboot the full system when it comes back, the reboot includes some scripts that clean up the filesystem Apr 05 03:47:09 alright Apr 05 03:47:53 don't be afraid of rebooting the phone Apr 05 03:48:08 I've done it 91 times since Mar 28 19:18:57 Apr 05 03:48:20 lol i've probably done it 8 times since yesterday Apr 05 03:48:23 possibly more Apr 05 03:48:32 *nod* Apr 05 03:48:46 I like experimenting with mine, so I frequently crash it when I hit a bug Apr 05 03:48:52 hehe Apr 05 03:48:59 just picked mine up yesterday Apr 05 03:49:08 I got mine a couple of weeks ago Apr 05 03:49:19 having a working linux box in my pocket is *very* useful. Apr 05 03:49:42 especially with wifi Apr 05 03:50:07 oh yeah Apr 05 03:50:34 I can vpnc into work then ssh from my netbook into the phone on to the server and be done in 15 minutes Apr 05 03:50:50 instead of looking at a 45 minute trip down to the DC Apr 05 03:51:18 which also means I can drink more beer, which can only be a good thing. Apr 05 03:51:22 hmmm one bug is fixed already Apr 05 03:51:27 oh? Apr 05 03:51:28 maybe the patch fixed my problems Apr 05 03:51:48 on previous install only two feeds were available Apr 05 03:51:51 now they are all updating Apr 05 03:51:52 worth a try Apr 05 03:51:56 hurrah! Apr 05 03:52:48 * hOoLiGaN` *crosses fingers Apr 05 03:53:20 if you've got *all* the feeds loaded it'll... take a while ;-) Apr 05 03:53:32 the new alpha version is a but faster, but it's still alpha. Apr 05 03:53:33 :D Apr 05 03:53:45 now i hope it installssss Apr 05 03:54:02 awesome Apr 05 03:54:05 if the feeds come in you should be good to go Apr 05 03:54:08 ? Apr 05 03:54:18 installing :D Apr 05 03:54:20 up and running already? Apr 05 03:54:20 ahhh Apr 05 03:54:37 well, watch the pretty update screen I guess :-) Apr 05 03:54:45 oh i meant Apr 05 03:54:48 instlaling an app :D Apr 05 03:54:54 i'm good to go Apr 05 03:55:02 yay! Apr 05 03:55:16 dude this is so sick Apr 05 03:55:31 i can fuckin write C programs on my phone Apr 05 03:55:37 something makes me feel you're going to investigate overclocking next. Apr 05 03:55:47 lolllllllll i am now ;) Apr 05 03:55:54 yeah, you can install joe and vi and stuff Apr 05 03:55:54 heh Apr 05 03:56:06 are you running the ondemand cpu governor too? Apr 05 03:56:13 ?? Apr 05 03:56:18 guess not Apr 05 03:56:34 let me see if I can find the forum post I made... sec Apr 05 03:56:59 http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/239159-huge-battery-improvement-after-800-mhz-patch-2.html Apr 05 03:57:02 third post down Apr 05 03:57:19 those are fairly conservative settings but they work well for me Apr 05 03:57:49 ahhh wow thx for link Apr 05 03:57:55 i was noticing bit of cpu hang-up Apr 05 03:58:00 also note jhoff's experiences later down Apr 05 03:58:06 <3 Apr 05 03:58:09 how well do you know linux? Apr 05 03:58:17 you must have a clue if you're doing c programming on the phone Apr 05 03:58:55 the cpu hang-ups are, I think, mostly due to disk flushing Apr 05 03:59:28 /etc/PmLog.conf is the file to disable logs (but note that this will not really help Palm if your phone loses its magic smoke) Apr 05 03:59:52 pmsyslogd is the thread to -KILL to get it to reload Apr 05 04:00:10 edit /etc/fstab and make /var/log mount data=writeback not /var Apr 05 04:00:15 then reboot Apr 05 04:00:23 and I think you'll find the phone less laggy Apr 05 04:01:47 alright cool thx for the tips Apr 05 04:01:53 yeah im decent at linux Apr 05 04:02:30 ok, that should give you enough information then Apr 05 04:02:51 the only other think I can think of is / keeps getting mount ro, so you'll have to remount that rw before you can edit fstab Apr 05 04:03:45 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 05 04:07:55 i can't ever copy or paste into or out of novaerm :/ Apr 05 04:08:19 I never really tried Apr 05 04:08:24 rwhitby: you might want to ask if the people with the "freezing" problem are overclocking, as that was one of my acid tests playing with overclocking, whether I could make preware freeze processing freeds or not Apr 05 04:08:38 use novaterm to ping the machine you're on; ssh into the phone. Apr 05 04:08:59 it's also nice if you have control of the local dhcp server to set the ip static on there Apr 05 04:13:09 sbromwich: I occasionally get a freeze during processing unknowns, with no overclocking Apr 05 04:13:49 if I run at 800MHz fixed I can reliably lock my phone when I check/uncompress feeds on my phone Apr 05 04:14:08 * rwhitby is working on the uber-kernel-pre package right now ... Apr 05 04:14:16 *grin* Apr 05 04:14:31 is it newer than 2.6.24? ;-) Apr 05 04:14:43 does it have the rt patch? ;-> Apr 05 04:14:50 no, no. stock Pre kernel, just with some small mods. Apr 05 04:14:58 dash it all, man! ;-) Apr 05 04:15:17 we can have a 'hardcore-kernel-pre' package too ... Apr 05 04:15:29 I don't suppose anyone did a writeup on what's necessary to get a new kernel to compile? Apr 05 04:15:30 but this one is the safe one for the average joe Apr 05 04:15:39 I can probalby hack the diffs to get something more recent Apr 05 04:15:49 I'm curious to see what frigging with HZ would do too Apr 05 04:15:57 sbromwich: sure you don't want commit access? ;-) Apr 05 04:16:02 ohhhhh yes Apr 05 04:16:20 let me find the last time I made that mistake... Apr 05 04:16:36 you know that I'll get you - I'll just release something that you just can't stand to look at and you just have to fix it, and that will be it - game over. Apr 05 04:17:14 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.6578&lon=-63.6118&zoom=12&layers=B000FTF Apr 05 04:17:34 no, I have a perfectly good webserver I can keep throwing diffs up on ;-) Apr 05 04:17:54 that works too, the autobuilder can grab them from there Apr 05 04:18:25 sbromwich: FYI: http://unixpsycho.com/palm-pre/ Apr 05 04:18:38 unless, off course, it's just some random diff against, say, a file called "config-assistant.js" or some such ;-) Apr 05 04:18:46 ah, thanks Apr 05 04:19:00 I need an icon for the kernel package too .... Apr 05 04:19:25 The kernels are built from Palm source available from http://opensource.palm.com/packages.html. Apr 05 04:19:28 *heart* Apr 05 04:21:00 sbromwich: and http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=summary Apr 05 04:21:06 need to get the .config in there too Apr 05 04:21:33 must... resist... Apr 05 04:22:35 oh, is there a recovery method should one happen to, oh... trash ones /boot? Apr 05 04:22:44 just, y'know... wondering. Apr 05 04:23:33 sbromwich: yep, look at the bottom of our wiki recovery page. Apr 05 04:23:48 bootie can be told to boot a kernel and initramfs from memory Apr 05 04:24:05 hahahaaha Apr 05 04:24:09 we can even handle a bootloader deletion, using the OMAP usb boot mode Apr 05 04:24:11 so I might be the first person to try this in anger? Apr 05 04:24:19 no, the bootie mem: is well tested Apr 05 04:24:23 ah, ok Apr 05 04:24:29 the usb boot mode has only been done a couple of times Apr 05 04:24:41 the bootie mem: is what the webOS Doctor uses Apr 05 04:25:09 sbromwich: just sent you the .config to go with that patch Apr 05 04:25:40 got it, ta :-) Apr 05 04:26:25 * phil_bw sighs Apr 05 04:26:33 sbromwich: was just reading the thread on improved battery life with overclocking and have a question Apr 05 04:26:42 mmm? Apr 05 04:26:53 finding the perfect window manager for X on the Pre is tough... Apr 05 04:27:08 sbromwich: also forwarded you some other discussion Apr 05 04:27:14 I was speculating on opie and gpe myself earlier, phil_bw Apr 05 04:27:28 does the uberCPU Scaling app do the same thing as your script, or is it using a different governor? Apr 05 04:27:29 reading it now Apr 05 04:27:34 I have no idea Apr 05 04:27:34 phil_bw: how about what they use for SHR in OpenMoko ? Apr 05 04:27:57 or what raster uses for e17 on OpenMoko Apr 05 04:28:01 I'm not very good with scripts and packages and graphical stuff, I log in directly to my phone over ssh and do it directly from an event.d script Apr 05 04:28:10 sbromwich: I havnt tried either Apr 05 04:28:38 sbromwich: I can do that, but before I use something I always package it for Preware, so that I can install the same thing later when I reflash my device. Apr 05 04:28:47 fvwm ftw Apr 05 04:29:00 * dreadchicken realizes he is getting old. Apr 05 04:29:11 dreadchicken: +1 fvwm or gwm Apr 05 04:29:13 rwhitby: I really wanted to go with e 17 but I'm using Debian and I can't find a working package Apr 05 04:29:16 wmaker myself Apr 05 04:29:37 I want somewith with a virtual desktop/pager Apr 05 04:29:41 *some* day development will restart. Apr 05 04:29:54 * rwhitby bbiab Apr 05 04:29:54 wmaker does multiple desktops Apr 05 04:30:01 I'm not sure it'd be suited to the pre though Apr 05 04:30:15 not multiple desktops, virtual desktop Apr 05 04:30:17 s Apr 05 04:30:27 hmm. overclocking to 800 is killing my battery and the cpu scaling app doesn't seem to have much effect. Apr 05 04:30:38 so when my windows keep going off screen I could page over Apr 05 04:30:45 I'll have to try your method. Apr 05 04:31:02 ah, to scroll around? Apr 05 04:31:03 x itself can do that Apr 05 04:31:27 dreadchicken: not when you don't have a mouse Apr 05 04:31:45 also the package I am using is locked to Pre resolution Apr 05 04:31:51 idw2k|wirc: run the following in novaterm: cd /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/stats/ && watch -n 1 cat * Apr 05 04:32:10 that will show you if you're stuck at 800MHz (in which case yes, you are indeed wasting power) or if it's trying to step Apr 05 04:32:19 obviously, you need to spend time making a bt mouse work with the pre =p Apr 05 04:32:34 haha Apr 05 04:32:50 the palm userspace daemon will try doing some stepping but it's interested more in dicking about with the radio stuff, so it doesn't do a stellar job with the cpu Apr 05 04:33:24 so far e 16 works well for paging on the desktop, but most functionality requires right click... again a no go on a touch screen Apr 05 04:34:33 some way to map sym+tap to right, orange+tap to center? Apr 05 04:35:21 I should probably come around when dtzWill is here and ask him... his package after all Apr 05 04:35:30 anyway, time for bed... Apr 05 04:35:43 * phil_bw wanders off Apr 05 04:35:55 sbromwich: I will try that when I get home. at work at the moment Apr 05 04:36:20 ok Apr 05 04:36:58 only 272 patch failures from the 2.6.25 kernel... this might be doable Apr 05 04:38:42 and interestingly, 22 failures from patches already applied... Apr 05 04:41:46 ohhhhh kay, this is not something I'm going to be able to do tonight, I think... laters :-) Apr 05 04:42:05 the droid community seems really interested in running 2.6.32 Apr 05 04:42:16 didn't catch why they were so fond of 2.6.32 Apr 05 04:44:46 sbromwich: nice command... should I expect to see mine step down having just done the 600mhz patch? Apr 05 04:46:04 idw2k|wirc: also, add -d to your watch command, even better. Apr 05 04:47:01 rwhitby: illume is used on shr, illume2 is a cleanup and modularisation of it. its expected that you provide your own "indicator", "softkey", "home" and "quickpanel" app windows. even your own vkbd (tho if u have qwerty kdb's u dont need this) Apr 05 04:47:15 the demo home/indicator/softkey etc. are not meant to be brilliant Apr 05 04:47:18 just demo placeholder Apr 05 04:47:24 need to do really good replacements some time Apr 05 04:47:36 tho that will likely wait for e18 and when elementary gets sucked into e's core Apr 05 04:47:44 can I run that from terminal on the pre? Apr 05 04:48:14 sbromwich: mine isn't stepping down :( Apr 05 04:48:43 idw2k|wirc: dunno.. I'd use ssh to it. Apr 05 04:49:13 although.. there's a chance that the watch/cat commands themselves would make it never step down.. Apr 05 04:49:20 just stopping by on my way to bed... that command I cut and pasted only shows you the stats, it doesn't change anything Apr 05 04:49:23 yeah, don't have access to a pc at the moment Apr 05 04:50:10 http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/239159-huge-battery-improvement-after-800-mhz-patch-2.html has my settings, change the 8 to a 6 if you are running a stock kernel. Apr 05 04:50:17 sbromwich: realise that... but yeah, mine isn't stepping :( Apr 05 04:50:46 cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor Apr 05 04:51:01 if it comes back userspace you're using the palm power daemon Apr 05 04:51:17 if it comes back ondemand you're using the ondemand power scheduler Apr 05 04:51:41 and in which case double check /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq to make sure that's not set too high Apr 05 04:51:48 sbromwich: yep, userspace. Apr 05 04:51:56 there's your problem. Apr 05 04:52:08 I'm going to have to try it. After three hours of browsing and texting I'm down to 30% battery. which is unacceptable Apr 05 04:52:15 So the ipk patch for 600mhz simply ramps it up full time to 600... and doesn't step the CPU Apr 05 04:52:17 echo ondemand > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor Apr 05 04:52:25 bummer Apr 05 04:52:26 This is very bad, no? Apr 05 04:52:32 it's not brilliant Apr 05 04:52:47 and that's with the cpu scaling app on Apr 05 04:52:58 I forgot to plug my phone in last night... went from 96% charge to 89% charge over about 8 hours sat by my bed Apr 05 04:53:04 yep, straight away, even with -n 1, I'm seeing it step down Apr 05 04:53:20 the -n 1 just means update once a second Apr 05 04:53:35 watch -n 5 will update every 5 seconds Apr 05 04:53:50 I know what it means :P Apr 05 04:53:56 ok Apr 05 04:54:05 What I was saying was that running the cat every sec may stop it from stepping down... but it doesn't. Apr 05 04:54:12 no Apr 05 04:54:16 I just woke my Pre up and blam, 600 counters started ticking Apr 05 04:54:24 so awesome, best of both worlds Apr 05 04:54:36 if /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/sampling_rate is set too high it will burn too much cpu (and battery) power Apr 05 04:54:48 20000 works for me Apr 05 04:54:50 so in reality, even without the 600 patch or others, ondemand should stupidly improve batt life Apr 05 04:54:58 the rest of my settings are in the thread anyway Apr 05 04:55:10 200000 Apr 05 04:55:14 that's my default Apr 05 04:55:19 yes, with the caveat you will probably be tempted to use the phone more now and will therefore burn through battery just as much (but get more done) Apr 05 04:55:33 heh Apr 05 04:55:41 I'm just surprised the 600 patch doesn't turn ondemand on... Apr 05 04:55:45 bizarre choice there. Apr 05 04:56:10 I would recommend looking at a fusion add-on battery... usb output on a tiny 500mAh lithium battery of some flavour Apr 05 04:56:17 Any recommended way to presist that across reboots? ie is there an rc script already that does proc related settings? Apr 05 04:56:35 or the iGo plug-in green battery doobrie, but that's more of a brick Apr 05 04:56:53 yeah, read down that page and it has another cut and paste dealie Apr 05 04:57:09 k Apr 05 04:57:22 I don't know that I'd recommend it, but It Works For Me. Apr 05 04:57:41 Don't see why not.. if the ceiling is 600, why the hell wouldn't you wanna scale your CPU... Apr 05 04:57:48 dunno Apr 05 04:57:54 Can only do good, not harm (with the right ceiling) Apr 05 04:58:03 also install powertop and see what that says Apr 05 04:58:17 increate the writeback flush time and what not Apr 05 04:58:23 anyway... I am headed off to bed Apr 05 04:58:31 and hopefully this time I will remember to plug in my phone Apr 05 04:58:35 k Apr 05 04:58:35 night :-) Apr 05 05:00:29 yeah.. that fucks up video :( Apr 05 05:00:52 bummer. Apr 05 05:03:03 big bummer. Apr 05 05:09:53 SO the tradeoff is.. use ondemand with almost whatever values, and get better batt life & suckier overall "highspeed app" perf, or leave ondemand alone and get suckier batt life. Apr 05 05:11:45 I'm just boggled at this.. I can't beleieve Palm don't do scaling out of the box! Apr 05 05:12:04 s/boggled/perplexed Apr 05 05:17:56 i forget the details Apr 05 05:17:59 but there was some reason for it Apr 05 05:18:05 totally flabbergasted. Apr 05 05:18:11 ?!?! Apr 05 05:18:24 SpeedStep is well and truly proven in the laptop area... Apr 05 05:18:44 So it's safe to assume it does no scaling out of the box? Apr 05 05:19:24 it's not so simple Apr 05 05:20:00 Well to me, it really is. You scale, and when more grunt is needed, you scale up. When an app like Video loads, it makes a call to say "basically I'm gonna need all the grunt I can get" Apr 05 05:20:10 My friend just knocked my Pre off of a table... Cracked screen. Sad day. Apr 05 05:20:20 frequency scaling without the corresponding voltage scaling at more modern (leaky) technologies doesn't do anywhere nearly as much as you think Apr 05 05:20:20 and then there are a lot of frequencies (600 may be included) that severly desense the radio performance in certain bands Apr 05 05:20:21 TheInvsbleMan: ouch Apr 05 05:20:45 Yea... I'm going to the Sprint store tomorrow. I have TEP but it's gonna be $100 Apr 05 05:21:10 TheInvsbleMan: hey, at least you're covered... if it happens to me (in .au) I'm basically stuffed, or have to mail it back to Hong Kong/Expansys Apr 05 05:21:38 geist: hrm. fair enough. Still doesn't compute to me. Guess I'll go back to userspace for now :( Apr 05 05:21:59 Ahh I see. A lot of times Sprint will actually just replace it free, it just depends if they are feeling nice. Apr 05 05:22:14 geist: do you know if there were any kernel changes from 1.4.0 to 1.4.1 ? Apr 05 05:22:22 (the 1.4.1 patch is not up yet) Apr 05 05:22:22 not that i know of Apr 05 05:22:46 Oh and by the way... when is the SMS tone per contact patch going to be ported to 1.4.1.1? Apr 05 05:22:53 geist: the kernel was in the update package, but that could have been just an OE version bump or some ancilliary file Apr 05 05:22:54 for the omap we've been almost exclusively working towards getting it rebased on a newer code base Apr 05 05:23:08 then we can actually kick up TI's version of speedstep Apr 05 05:23:11 with the actual voltage scaling Apr 05 05:23:22 argh! I'm stuck at 125000 now.. wtf? Apr 05 05:23:25 TheInvsbleMan: when the author of the patch, or some other interested party, ports it. Apr 05 05:23:30 trouble is the old .24 code base is severly broken with regards to that, so that it's not particuarly easy to use Apr 05 05:23:41 and thus since it's running at a single voltage, frequency scaling doesn't really get you anything Apr 05 05:23:59 rwhitby: fair enough. It was actually the only one of my patches that didn't work. So I'm happy :) Apr 05 05:24:23 geist: I've set echo userspace > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor, and am stuck at 125mhz Apr 05 05:24:33 lingfish: nice job Apr 05 05:24:34 should I have done the echo while it was at 600? Apr 05 05:24:42 probably Apr 05 05:24:50 userspace means 'stop trying to set it' Apr 05 05:24:57 heh, the Pre really sucks at 125 Apr 05 05:24:58 because userspace will set the speed Apr 05 05:25:28 ahhh, that's better. Apr 05 05:25:32 for some reason i remember that 600 wasn't good to run at. i'm thinking some sort of radio desense thing Apr 05 05:25:32 Am I in the middle of you geniuses pushing the Pre past 800? :) Apr 05 05:25:38 geist: but the stock image sets the clock to 600 when playing games.. Apr 05 05:25:42 and 550 was i think actually slower than 500 at certain thins Apr 05 05:25:57 destinal: i think the idea is if you're playing games you're probably not pulling a lot of data over the radio Apr 05 05:26:00 geist: overall, I've had zero issues at 600. Apr 05 05:26:01 and/or talking on the phone Apr 05 05:26:07 geist: ok, fair enough Apr 05 05:27:00 problem with 600 is it has certain harmonics in interesting bands Apr 05 05:27:04 1800/1900/2400, etc Apr 05 05:27:27 500 straddles most of them Apr 05 05:27:56 that would explain people maybe getting better battery life with 800 than 600 actually, since only the 2400 has a harmonic there Apr 05 05:28:17 nah, it wont affect battery life Apr 05 05:28:21 it'd be a radio performance thing Apr 05 05:28:27 well, unless the radio has to work a lot harder Apr 05 05:28:32 I want so bad to try 800... but if TI say that's above rating, I'm not going there. Apr 05 05:28:33 right, that's what I was thinking Apr 05 05:28:42 retransmits or power boosts Apr 05 05:28:46 but in general running faster with a leaky cpu that can gate itself down to zero (like the omap is) Apr 05 05:28:56 is better, because you in theory get the same amount of work done in less time Apr 05 05:29:13 with dbsooner mia? is it still ok to push patch updates to his portal? Apr 05 05:29:19 that was not really the case in the 'old days' (like 5 years ago) when the dynamic current of an arm7 or arm9 would dominate the power Apr 05 05:29:30 or shouldwe send them somewhere else? Apr 05 05:29:33 and as such you could slew the clock rate aound and get a proportional amount of current draw Apr 05 05:29:46 idw2k|wirc: are you there Apr 05 05:29:50 nowdays the newer arms are very leaky, esp as they get into 45 nm Apr 05 05:30:03 so you want to run them hard at any given voltage and then power gate them hard Apr 05 05:30:19 so scaling the frequency doesn't really do a lot except keep the cpu on longer Apr 05 05:30:35 *unless* you can scale the frequency such that you drop to lower voltages, which then changes the base current draw Apr 05 05:30:46 yeah, 50% of the execution time at power X is better than 100% of the execution time at 80% of X Apr 05 05:31:00 idw2k|wirc: I saw you telling someone they cant get more battery with increased clock speed. but i to have experienced improvements in battery life and i will explain why Apr 05 05:31:04 right Apr 05 05:31:10 phil_bw: yep adding that mouse support is on my list. and... shouldn't be a big deal. maybe in the next week i'll have a chance. no promises :) Apr 05 05:31:13 Jack87: take most of that with a grain of salt Apr 05 05:31:28 you'd have to do a real full experimental setup with multiple devices and very controlled experimets to really say so Apr 05 05:32:05 thats just the thing geist a controlled experiment will make battery life suffer on faster Apr 05 05:32:07 phil_bw: but don't you think gesture+tap should be in there somewhere? (just wondering). anyway, the biggest reason it's not in there is a)time but b)i haven't sat down and worked out a reasonable system. like maybe there should be a way to move the mouse and not click/drag, etc. Apr 05 05:32:23 well uncontrolled experiments are even worse Apr 05 05:32:33 because you can't really draw any real conclusions from it, except what you feel Apr 05 05:32:41 Jack87: well you could have a benchmark that ran it like "real world" usage, but it would have to be consistent and reproducable Apr 05 05:32:43 which is nice in all, but does not a proof make Apr 05 05:32:46 which real everyday use is not Apr 05 05:33:01 right, you have to pick a certain set of use cases and go with that Apr 05 05:33:10 and hope you cover most of the good ones Apr 05 05:33:14 sbromwich: you trying to run a later kernel on the pre? :) Apr 05 05:33:15 idw2k|wirc geist The everyday tasks you do throughout the day are done much faster and smoother now.. meaning less waiting while pre screen is on. as much of a hit the speed is taking on battery the longer the screen is on the bigger the hit the battery takes Apr 05 05:33:52 bloody hell, wirc chimed at me Apr 05 05:33:52 so if your tasks are done quick and that means the quicker you can hit the power button to shut off screen or whatever method you use the longer the battery lasts with the less wait time for tasks to complete Apr 05 05:34:01 i seriously doubt the bump from 500->600 makes any substantial delay time go down Apr 05 05:34:07 destinal: yes! exactly... so its totally hard to reporduce. Apr 05 05:34:19 dtzWill: I just realized gesture tap gets me to the menu I needed Apr 05 05:34:19 like, you probably wont put the device back in your pocket that much faster Apr 05 05:34:34 phil_bw: does it? gesture is 'control' for what it's worth, so perhaps that works :) Apr 05 05:34:50 geist: sorry i am talking about 720MHz Kernel maybe even 800MHz but 720 is fine so no reason to sacrifice battery with 800MHz Apr 05 05:34:51 ah, this is in e 16 Apr 05 05:34:59 Jack87: i wont even talk about 720 or 800 Apr 05 05:35:05 at that point you are just buying time with your device Apr 05 05:35:09 you *will* burn it out faster Apr 05 05:35:12 just takes time Apr 05 05:35:14 what would be *nice* would simply be a way to pan around Apr 05 05:35:17 ergo, do what you want Apr 05 05:35:29 with dbsooner mia? is it still ok to push patch updates to his portal? Apr 05 05:35:31 V Apr 05 05:35:37 or shouldwe send them somewhere else? Apr 05 05:35:44 phil_bw: well glad that gets you by for now. improved mouse support is definitely on the TODO, as I mentioned mostly held up by sitting down and working out a reasonable system that works for most use cases. Apr 05 05:35:44 so say set the res higher then gesture + drag to move around (kind of like sdlvnc) Apr 05 05:35:49 sslow: still send them there - I can work with them from there Apr 05 05:36:00 rwh Apr 05 05:36:00 geist: yup, going above the datasheet specfications is bound to shorten the lifespan, and you're just gambling at that point as to how much Apr 05 05:36:22 yep, 100K hours to 50K hours just by running at 600MHz continuously Apr 05 05:36:24 rwhitby: ok thanks.. Ihave about10 to send Apr 05 05:36:34 dtzWill, I'd love to help if I can, I too am kinda pressed for time though Apr 05 05:36:37 phil_bw: it's not clear to me that higher resolution is absolutely the best, but i'm open to the idea. i suppose it would make applications that don't play nice at small resolutions more usable Apr 05 05:36:45 right. and it'll vary depending on the particular part Apr 05 05:36:57 could be you lucked out and got a die that was actually binned for a higher freq Apr 05 05:36:58 phil_bw: understood, aren't we all :D. but all the ideas you feel like throwing at me the better, so feel free to keep them coming :) Apr 05 05:37:03 but you can't assert that it's safe across the board Apr 05 05:37:08 usual overclocker stuff Apr 05 05:37:24 down again to 44K hours for a 720 binned part (which you might be lucky to have based on inventory that day at TI), and who knows how much lower for 800MHz Apr 05 05:37:45 So y'all are basically saying, don't OC. Apr 05 05:37:48 right. i would generally assume that newer cpus are probably 'better' Apr 05 05:37:53 dtzWill: my biggest issue is a window going off the screen then having to basically wrangle it over into viewing space so I can say... close it Apr 05 05:38:01 Even though I'd heard here that the proc the Pre is using is rated to 600mhz by TI Apr 05 05:38:07 but who knows, they could have used an old set of dies sitting in a warehouse Apr 05 05:38:13 one would assume that the 3440 and 3430 are the same die, with just binning involved Apr 05 05:38:21 but yeah, inventory rules. Apr 05 05:38:26 yeah, same with 3530 Apr 05 05:38:37 lingfish: 600 is "overdrive" Apr 05 05:38:38 it's pretty much the same as 3430, just marketed differently Apr 05 05:38:40 lingfish: 600 is rated by TI and supported by palm for games, it may or may not cause radio interference while you're doing it Apr 05 05:38:57 I've not experienced any issues call wise... Apr 05 05:39:00 and it pushes the envelope of those particular cpus Apr 05 05:39:03 I mean the longevity of the device Apr 05 05:39:06 phil_bw: window managers like icewm, and particularly matchbox (matchbox seems to do a better job for whatever reason) can help with that Apr 05 05:39:16 right, you wont. you'll hit it in n months or whatnot Apr 05 05:39:23 and yeah, if you run at 500, your device will live longer :) Apr 05 05:39:26 dtzWill: I've been trying to find a decent window manager with a pager to fix that problem but so far no luck. e 16 is as close as I can get but the pager won't stay on top Apr 05 05:39:30 I didn't say better battery life wasn't possible. I said "vastly" improved battery life wasn't credible *solely* from a 40% clock speed boost. Apr 05 05:39:33 I to was very skeptical at first but figgured id bite the bullet. Not going to do 800MHz but I feel as though at 720 i am fairly safe. with the screen not being on as long the phone also runs much cooler. Apr 05 05:39:42 in this day and time whos going to keep a device more than 1 yr? Apr 05 05:39:45 lingfish: yeah, longevity is a topic that that us Australians are concerned about - those on Sprint just get a new device every couple of months it seems. Apr 05 05:39:46 and I stand by that. Apr 05 05:40:02 sslow: my last phone was a Treo 650 which I used for 6 years straight Apr 05 05:40:05 Jack87: it's not really the overall device temperature, it's the temp inside the die Apr 05 05:40:06 dtzWill: I use IceWM primarily but it has no virtual desktop functionality Apr 05 05:40:11 rwhitby: yeah exactly... hence... my confusion. Should I just rip out my 600mhz patch or no? Apr 05 05:40:31 lingfish: 600MHz is guaranteed 50K hours by TI Apr 05 05:40:32 phil_bw: sure it does. mine did anyway? Apr 05 05:40:32 rwhitby: very much true its a lot easier here to take the risk and get a new device if needed Apr 05 05:40:53 overclocking *plus* scaling might produce slightly better battery life for *some* users. Apr 05 05:41:02 so 2,083 days constant use Apr 05 05:41:11 geist: you work for palm right? if i recall correctly? Apr 05 05:41:13 5 years Apr 05 05:41:16 phil_bw: http://wdtz.org/pre_x/xchat1.png you can see the pager in the bottom--just two, but sitll Apr 05 05:41:19 s/sitll/still/ Apr 05 05:41:19 dtzWill meant: phil_bw: http://wdtz.org/pre_x/xchat1.png you can see the pager in the bottom--just two, but still Apr 05 05:41:26 ~botsnack Apr 05 05:41:27 thanks, dtzWill Apr 05 05:41:36 rwhitby: I can live with 5 years, constant Apr 05 05:41:41 rwhitby: thats 52k hrs if you never turned it off Apr 05 05:41:42 * rwhitby doubts that anyone here is making an official palm statement about anything Apr 05 05:41:45 but also that's a good demonstration of it not working well with cutting it off the edge. Apr 05 05:41:59 phil_bw: if you didn't poke at the scripts related already, you might prefer the landscape orientation, it depends on the app. Apr 05 05:41:59 are we saying w oc we wont get 50k hrs Apr 05 05:42:16 phil_bw: randr support for rotating on the fly is also on the TODO Apr 05 05:42:18 sslow: they seem to be saying at 600mhz, you'll get 50K Apr 05 05:42:25 FWIW, the 800MHz kernel absolutely kills my battery life. to the point that if I can't find a solution I'll remove it despite the performance gains. Apr 05 05:42:28 * dtzWill wishes more people were working on this, so many cool things to be done Apr 05 05:42:37 sslow: depends on your device. you might have got lucky and got a rebadged 800MHz-binned 3440 Apr 05 05:42:46 rwhitby: haha ya. but person's personal creditability on such subjects does make a difference. there is never official palm statements here thats i already known and very clear Apr 05 05:42:51 i can live w/ those #s Apr 05 05:43:06 sslow: or you might have got a low-end 600MHz device which just made the 600MHz bin Apr 05 05:43:17 youcan buy a used pre for 175.00 usd Apr 05 05:43:36 dtzWill: what are you working on? Apr 05 05:43:36 dtzWill: one step ahead on that, I copied the package and modified the second one so I've got two separate icons now, one for portrait, one for landscape, btw I don't see a pager in that screenshot Apr 05 05:43:39 sslow: all depends on what TI had in inventory on the day that Palm's manufacturing house got shipped the chips Apr 05 05:44:02 phil_bw: on the bottom next to the terminal icon. the two rectangles. Apr 05 05:44:23 dtzWill: by the wanting more people hacking on it, you mean X? Apr 05 05:44:27 phil_bw: next to the minimized terminal i mean Apr 05 05:44:31 destinal: haha yeah :) Apr 05 05:44:36 See, back to my rant of all time (on my blog, forums etc). Palm just really need to fully use the GPU and I personally would be happy. I don't think the Pre is slow at "doing" stuff... I just think the GUI is laggy and crap. You goto a iCrap phone and the smoothmess of all the graphical work just shits all over the Pre, and its the same CPU/GPU (from what I know) Apr 05 05:44:44 destinal: and related packages, etc, that build upon it :D :P Apr 05 05:44:56 I still maintain that the Pre simply looks like Windows when you disable DirectX. Apr 05 05:44:56 phil_bw: heh, two icons is a nice idea. Apr 05 05:44:59 Jack87: I think credibility on this subject would be based on your job description, not just on whether you work at Palm. I doubt a high-level mojo software engineer at Palm will know more than an experienced ASIC developer here who does not work at Palm for the matter at hand. Apr 05 05:45:35 dtzWill: it would be cool to be able to transparently run the N900's hildon binaries :) Apr 05 05:45:40 * rwhitby notes that some of present company are experienced kernel engineers and ASIC developers Apr 05 05:45:56 dtzWill: aren't those just separate desktops? not actual virtual ones where one extends on the other? Apr 05 05:45:57 * Jack87 still wonders of geist works for palm :) Apr 05 05:46:18 * lingfish is tempted to just privmsg and ask ;) Apr 05 05:46:24 ... and then beg for what I just said above Apr 05 05:46:26 heh. Apr 05 05:46:37 * rwhitby knows the answer, but finds it polite not to ask in public Apr 05 05:46:58 noted. Apr 05 05:47:00 :P Apr 05 05:47:04 yes Apr 05 05:47:06 i do Apr 05 05:47:07 utilizing the gpu isn't simply a matter of changing "useGPU n" to "useGPU y" Apr 05 05:47:13 haha ok :) Apr 05 05:47:34 geist: ya i thought we talked about stuff in the past wasnt sure. Apr 05 05:47:49 idw2k|wirc: I know that too -- but it is the BIGGEST improvement they could make...surely less power drain, and speedier than doing it all through CPU Apr 05 05:48:16 idw2k|wirc: that would be awesome if it was though! :) Apr 05 05:48:17 And a good time investment for the userbase. Apr 05 05:48:19 phil_bw: ! yes, i'm unfamiliar with what you mean then, unfortunately. Apr 05 05:48:20 and their impressions Apr 05 05:48:33 geist has castle-building experience :) Apr 05 05:48:49 phil_bw: oh you mean viewing area >> view? Apr 05 05:48:56 * rwhitby notes that our autobuilder is called 'mason' Apr 05 05:49:03 phil_bw: errr the virtual desktop so X has it bigger than the viewport Apr 05 05:49:25 lol clever rwhitby Apr 05 05:49:34 destinal: so any other kernel patches or config changes you think should go in our uber-kernel? Apr 05 05:49:49 (all must be disabled by default) Apr 05 05:49:52 dtzWill: if you check out enlightenment (e16) the desktop space is doubled and a pager lets you switch "sides" and see your overhanging windows... IceWM with that feature would be perfect Apr 05 05:50:22 phil_bw: that's interesting abstraction for a window manager to provide. never played with that :). Apr 05 05:50:29 rwhitby: well, I want to get to the bottom of why I can't get USB OTG to enumerate on castle, if it takes kernel mods, then they should go in our kernel Apr 05 05:50:31 also abiword works rather well xD Apr 05 05:50:33 Alas... I don't get why there's zero noise about my GPU rant, over time. Perhaps it's near to impossible due to current codebase design. Apr 05 05:50:34 dtzWill: basically Apr 05 05:50:41 rwhitby: I haven't played with it in a while though Apr 05 05:50:53 * dtzWill should package up abiword for rick_home lol Apr 05 05:51:08 err i think he was the one that REALLY wanted a word processor Apr 05 05:51:12 dtzWill: virtual desktops "intereasting abstraction" ? that's like been the most fundamental thing x11 wm's have done for the past 2 decades Apr 05 05:51:20 * destinal looks around for his microUSB A adapter Apr 05 05:51:40 lingfish: As much as I dislike feeding the trolls; What gpu rant? Apr 05 05:52:17 chrisa: scrollback. Apr 05 05:52:18 abiword, heh, I'm rockin the OpenOffice ;) Apr 05 05:52:38 phil_bw: /me *shudders* Apr 05 05:52:47 haha Apr 05 05:53:06 I installed it as an experiment then it proved to work rather well Apr 05 05:53:13 shocked the hell out of me.. Apr 05 05:53:15 you also have to consider that in future devices, u Apr 05 05:53:20 phil_bw: it works well on the pre? Apr 05 05:53:25 keep in mind the gpu is not trivial to utilize Apr 05 05:53:32 raster: errr i think i misunderstood? the "Abstraction" i was commenting on wasn't virtual desktops per se, but taking the fact that yuo can extend one window onto another and provide a ui that shows it as multiple 'views' into the same thing. Apr 05 05:53:34 and has its own power consumption issues Apr 05 05:53:35 Oh, just a feature request Apr 05 05:53:36 meh Apr 05 05:53:46 destinal: it does, I'm going to post a video of it running tomorrow Apr 05 05:53:53 processor speed increases will overtake the UI lag Apr 05 05:54:02 geist: sure... but hey, that's the great thing about an abstraction layer like DirectX (not suggesting DX should be implemented, but still...) Apr 05 05:54:12 lingfish: opengl Apr 05 05:54:13 800MHz=no UI lag :) Apr 05 05:54:14 raster: with more thought that does seem to be exactly what many wm's do, but I didn't view it that way I suppose, particularly because I'm generally more a fan of having distinct workspaces, and so my mindset and usage reflects that Apr 05 05:54:16 but that's the easy part Apr 05 05:54:19 geist: indeed. Apr 05 05:54:29 the hard part is plugging the entire rendering engine into the gpu Apr 05 05:54:31 raster: didn't mean to be judgemental :) Apr 05 05:54:33 geist: so you're basically saying it'll never happen? Apr 05 05:54:34 cause with gpus it tends to be all or nothing Apr 05 05:54:40 lingfish: i'm not saying anything of the sort Apr 05 05:54:46 heh. Apr 05 05:54:50 do not read more into what i say than the pure technical details Apr 05 05:54:52 "anytime soon" Apr 05 05:54:59 dtzWill: thats a bi-produce of desktops ebing a grid and thus a window half on one and half on another.. literally will do just that - when u flip :) Apr 05 05:55:00 yeah ok. Apr 05 05:55:02 phil_bw: you using jdk too then? or jdk-free? Apr 05 05:55:04 if you start talking like that i'll have to go away Apr 05 05:55:20 so please stick to technical details if you want to fish Apr 05 05:55:24 geist: have you ever played with USB OTG on the pre? By echo otg > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/mode or whichever device it was, I could get it to power up devices that were plugged in, but not enumerate them Apr 05 05:55:26 dtzWill: jdk for what? Apr 05 05:55:35 that is - of course, if u look at them as a grid of virtual screens glued together in a 2d array Apr 05 05:55:42 as opposed to - as u say, distinct workareas Apr 05 05:55:43 destinal: doesn't have the requisite voltage regulator to be a host Apr 05 05:55:49 e16 has both of these concepts Apr 05 05:55:54 multiple and virtual desktops Apr 05 05:56:07 raster: yeah, it seems silly when i think of it that way, thanks for making sure things were clear :). sorry to suggest enlightenment did anything something odd, not my intention Apr 05 05:56:10 geist: understood, apologies. So, the rendering engine would need a complete rewrite, in order to talk opengl Apr 05 05:56:12 geist: ah so that could result in powering them up but not signalling? Apr 05 05:56:13 multiple == the workspaces u talk about, virtual == grid of screens within 1 multiple desktop Apr 05 05:56:19 destinal: perhaps Apr 05 05:56:28 raster: ah, I do got those terms mixed up unfortunately. Apr 05 05:56:39 dtzWill: oh no - dont apologize. i just thought it was odd u found virtual desktops ... odd :) Apr 05 05:56:43 if the bloody pager in e 16 would stay on top it'd be a winner Apr 05 05:56:44 i know Apr 05 05:56:46 peole mix them up Apr 05 05:56:54 e17 doesnt have "virtual desktops" Apr 05 05:56:58 its just workspaces in a grid Apr 05 05:57:01 i simplified it Apr 05 05:57:10 raster: thanks for the explanation. is that terminology used across different wm's and general X work? Apr 05 05:57:56 there are very *few* wms that use virtual desktops, most are archaic and ugggly Apr 05 05:58:06 chrisa: heh, I wouldn't call it that, but anyway. Apr 05 05:58:26 phil_bw: to be clear you do mean virtual desktops as raster is meaning, as well as what you meant earlier? Apr 05 05:59:19 dtzWill: yes, an extended desktop with a pager to access it, so when a large window goes off the screen you can go get it Apr 05 05:59:29 chrisa: geist: I would have assumed that utilising a specialist chip (ie. the GPU) for that type of work would result in less net power draw? Apr 05 06:00:11 dtzWill: that i'm not sure of. there's quite a variation, multiple desktops, virtualdesktops and workspaces are all terms used by various wm's Apr 05 06:01:01 hum. raster i feel like each one of those terms are completely different meanings Apr 05 06:01:16 raster: Apr 05 06:01:58 raster: yeah, and I suppose that makes sense. the things used internally aren't necessarily the same ideas/concepts/etc that you want to provide to the user as part of what you're going for. anyway, just wondering so I can get my terminology straight :) Apr 05 06:02:12 geist: plugging your whole rendering ui into the gpu isn't too hard... if u designed your rendering layer right :) Apr 05 06:02:35 I suppose the power draw matters to what GPU .... eg. PC GPUs are super power hungry... but they get driven stupidly hard Apr 05 06:02:40 Jack87: workspaces and multiple desktops - to me are the same thing. virtual i look at as being " a big screen i pan around" Apr 05 06:03:00 as such xf8t6 uses to support virtual fb resolutiosn - thus why i see virtual as meing big thing u pan around Apr 05 06:03:13 multiple/workspace == "several ov them with no geometry relative to eachother" Apr 05 06:03:18 but thats me Apr 05 06:03:30 raster, you have it 100% right Apr 05 06:03:44 phil_bw: by jdk i meant jre, which is an optional depndency that i think many distros make required, not 100% sure of what features it drives Apr 05 06:03:58 raster: Makes sense and indeed now that you mention it those are very much known that way Apr 05 06:03:59 though most people don't use a virtual desktop so they think workspaces Apr 05 06:04:03 i'm biased by decades of my head being buried into graphics :) Apr 05 06:04:07 phil_bw: by 100% i mean not sure at all, just that i find it exactly as usable and starts faster if i disable it using a jre Apr 05 06:05:17 dtzWill: I really don't know... installed OpenOffice via apt-get and let it go all night. Not sure what it installed Apr 05 06:08:55 phil_bw: try disabling the jre in the menu (tools->options- Apr 05 06:09:07 phil_bw: * options, java, 'use a java runtime environment' Apr 05 06:09:23 ah Apr 05 06:09:27 phil_bw: errr do what you want but might be worth looking into since that's a lot of stuff you probably don't need. Apr 05 06:09:46 I'll check it out Apr 05 06:09:59 will fire it up right now Apr 05 06:10:07 phil_bw: as you decide to, didn't mean to be pushy :D. also super glad you're enjoying it and finding it useful :) Apr 05 06:11:13 dtzWill: it felt like christmas when I discovered the native x server, until then I was using vnc and a local tight server Apr 05 06:11:54 just wish the startup script could start my window manager Apr 05 06:12:05 phil_bw: why can't it? chroot, etc? Apr 05 06:12:20 it just wont Apr 05 06:12:52 end up just firing off a script from the terminal that does the job then close it Apr 05 06:12:52 phil_bw: also icewm is already ported, it just needs packaging. so it could have a launcher icon too :) Apr 05 06:13:24 nice, though I kind of like having all of my apps on the debian side Apr 05 06:13:29 easier to manage Apr 05 06:13:37 phil_bw: i'm curious why not, that doesn't seem right. which script are you adding it to, and how'd it fail? Apr 05 06:14:13 phil_bw: I agree, but also that's not something that is probably super usable for users, particularly if they just want an app or two. I'm not sure of the best way to do it--I also rather enjoy just having a large debian image and apt-get'ing away Apr 05 06:14:22 it's just doing the regular chroot command with icewm --display :0:0 tacked on it Apr 05 06:14:55 phil_bw: from the chroot you'll want DISPLAY=localhost:0.0 not just :0.0. although the fact that it works from the xterm is .. curious Apr 05 06:15:13 dtzWill: yeah for regular users it's a dif story, but for me I like it Apr 05 06:15:33 phil_bw: i'm not familiar with icewm's --display argument, but I'd assume it's the same as setting the DISPLAY env var, in which case what I said is required. Apr 05 06:16:01 phil_bw: also i'm not excited at porting everything over myself.... I'm not ready to launch effectively my own distro.... lol Apr 05 06:16:04 dtzWill: I tried the env var in a chroot command, didn't like it Apr 05 06:16:48 phil_bw: works great for m----oh you mean in the command. i haven't tried scripting it, no Apr 05 06:17:04 dtzWill: don't blame ya, I've thought about just packaging a clean img file with the basics and configuring it to make with your server, then distributing that Apr 05 06:17:49 * rwhitby considers an org.webosinternals.debian-chroot package ... Apr 05 06:18:28 just install the ipk, drop the img on the pre via usb, click the icon Apr 05 06:18:45 let the users apt-get to their hearts content Apr 05 06:19:13 phil_bw, rwhitby: that would be great. although might be nice if we shipped the img via preware, shrug. compressed the image wouldn't be TOO large, although i understand that maybe even so that's a bit rough. Apr 05 06:19:35 a minimal debian image should be small Apr 05 06:19:46 no reason why we couldn't do it Apr 05 06:20:07 dtzWill, rwhitby, that's all that's stopped me, don't want a huge image being sucked down using up my bandwidth Apr 05 06:20:08 Preware Alpha now has download progress meters ;) Apr 05 06:20:14 we probably would want to include some graphical front-end to apt-get as well Apr 05 06:20:27 phil_bw: OSUOSL has plenty of bandwidth Apr 05 06:20:43 I mean a 500mb img is about as minimal as you can get Apr 05 06:20:56 rwhitby, true... Apr 05 06:21:39 rwhitby: how is preware alpha coming along? I'm a little ashamed i haven't given it a try myself :[ Apr 05 06:21:58 dtzWill: no logic bugs found yet in a couple of days of public alpha testing Apr 05 06:22:19 man I should go to sleep Apr 05 06:22:35 dtzWill: I presume you've seen http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew Apr 05 06:23:06 dtzWill: if you need some X related beta testing just drop me a line at phil@boraware.com Apr 05 06:23:56 phil_bw: fwiw, "DISPLAY=localhost:0.0 chroot /media/cf matchbox-session &" at the end of start.sh for the xorg-server package works great here Apr 05 06:24:19 phil_bw: and i'm glad you suggested that, I'm rather fond of having that start automagically, not sure why I didn't scrit it earlier :) Apr 05 06:24:50 phil_bw: thanks for offering, i'll definitely keep you in the loop. and you already ARE participating in the beta testing :D Apr 05 06:25:42 rwhitby: yes i have! and thanks for giving X a bit of exposure ;). Apr 05 06:25:43 * phil_bw goes and modifies the start script real quick before going to bed Apr 05 06:25:55 dtzWill: cross-marketing FTW Apr 05 06:26:11 rwhitby: :D Apr 05 06:26:33 rwhitby: I had a question though: the merging of them seems like it could potentially be even better? Apr 05 06:27:00 dtzWill: shame on you for espousing the windows way instead of the unix way Apr 05 06:27:06 -) Apr 05 06:27:08 ;-) Apr 05 06:27:10 rwhitby: save/restore saving the fact that app X (heh) is installed, but distinctly saving the state of X itself Apr 05 06:27:59 dtzWill: save/restore is just saving the application data for Preware. just add a script to make it save the application data for X too Apr 05 06:28:09 rwhitby: I resent your comment, I'm not necessarily suggesting the apps are merged, but.. well just that it did seem oddly cyclical Apr 05 06:28:29 rwhitby: well it can't restore X until X is installed, so after a doctor you restore preware, install all, then restore the app's state Apr 05 06:29:24 rwhitby: let me take a few steps back and make sure it's completely clear that that this whole setup is wonderful and I'm very excited about it. my discussions/suggestions are very distinct from that sentiment :) Apr 05 06:29:55 dtzWill: yeah, there is a bit of interdependency going on. but I do need to keep up the pretence that there is no plan for preware to rule the universe Apr 05 06:30:07 dtzWill: you did see the smiley after my windows comment, right? Apr 05 06:30:09 rwhitby: maybe what you have setup is in fact the best way to do it cleanly, keeping separation of functionality which I assume you were referring to as unix/windows philosophy. Apr 05 06:30:28 rwhitby: I suppose I did not :D which is odd because I love me my emoticons Apr 05 06:30:48 EEMOTFAIL Apr 05 06:31:14 rwhitby: regardless I'm not sure I see a better way necessarily, just commenting that the restore process was unnecessarily extra steps, I suppose is all I was trying to say :) Apr 05 06:31:19 dtzWill: what I have set up now is just a glorified proof of concept :-) Apr 05 06:32:10 rwhitby: yes and I don't mean to start bitching about every little thing while it's still early and a WIP. and I do rather like the ability to individually backup/restore/etc, and have that all in my control. certainly better to err on that side than have some automagic thing do it all for you. Apr 05 06:32:42 I'm sure Jason will do the PC-based automagic solution ;-) Apr 05 06:33:25 rwhitby: I understand this might be a hard question to answer, but is preware-alpha ready for day-to-day usage? reports do seem rather positive Apr 05 06:33:43 dtzWill: still not loading... I'll screw with it in the morning Apr 05 06:33:48 * phil_bw wamders off Apr 05 06:33:59 dtzWill: I believe it is. worst that can happen is that an install or remove fails. Apr 05 06:34:02 phil_bw: okay, have a good one :). you using icewm? I'll see if that works.......... Apr 05 06:34:37 dtzWill: of course it doesn't go on my production device until it gets into the public feed Apr 05 06:34:46 rwhitby: okay, a description of estimated damage is indeed useful :). I love playing with my device but preware has become pretty critical part of my phone :) Apr 05 06:34:57 rwhitby: hahaha :D. look at you with multiple phones, mr fancy :) Apr 05 06:35:13 * dtzWill continues his work hacking on his device and playing with the kernel on his primary phone Apr 05 06:35:16 xD Apr 05 06:35:53 dtzWill: see /msg Apr 05 06:56:24 hey i was trying to follow the convo Apr 05 06:58:54 * rwhitby continues work on the kernel packaging Makefile Apr 05 10:59:28 * rwhitby does some patches processing Apr 05 11:39:59 rwhitby: ez-ipupdate + lighty = pretty cool Apr 05 11:40:35 cal__: + save/restore and you can browse your IM and SMS archives as HTML files Apr 05 11:42:51 rwhitby: wow! pretty cool. I made a script/html file to make all my photos browsable on the phones web server as soon as i take them. But then I decided it's pretty useless, even as thumbnails and only 6 at a time, the photos are *very* slow to load. Apr 05 11:45:52 your saying browse IM and SMS through lighty? I feel a full fledged 'control panel and browser' coming soon to control the phone through lighty lol. Apr 05 12:32:02 http://gizmodo.com/5509384/sorry-your-ipad-is-low-on-memory lol Apr 05 12:43:04 hide nascar app not hiding nascar app. have removed and reinstalled patch through preware. all latest versions of webos and preware. thoughts? Apr 05 12:43:22 same for hide amazon. Apr 05 12:44:59 Davide-NYC: no idea - the patch author just updated it - you'll need to talk to them Apr 05 12:46:45 OK. Any news on the overclocked kernels for webos 1.4.1.1? Apr 05 13:03:52 Davide-NYC: plenty of news in the forum thread on that subject Apr 05 13:06:44 rwhitby: I added the 'sleep 5' you mentioned in the forums about ezipudate. sometimes i still find it doesnt update the new IP though.. not sure if it's when it goes from wireless-to-evdo or when it loses cell signal and then finds it again, or what. Apr 05 13:17:21 mornin Apr 05 13:18:20 (or evenin' to those of us on other continents as appropriate) Apr 05 13:21:19 many moons ago (before there was an optware feed in Preware, I'm 98% sure), I hand-installed dropbear. I think the recommended way to get ssh on one's Pre today is to use the packages in the optware feed in Preware. Any recommends regarding dropbear vs. openssh? Apr 05 13:21:32 (I doctored my Pre before 1.4) Apr 05 13:22:20 nt4cats: I use openssh Apr 05 13:22:56 mainly cause dropbear requires root to have a password, even if passwords are disabled. that means an OTA update can stop dropbear from working, whereas openssh will soldier on Apr 05 13:23:46 rwhitby: good to know. I'll setup openssh, then. Thanks Apr 05 13:24:21 * nt4cats is RT F'ing M Apr 05 13:56:39 I suspect the ApplicationOpenSSH page on the wiki was copied from the dropbear page -- there are still dropbear-specific instructions at the bottom. I'll update them to match the OpenSSH package Apr 05 13:58:15 nt4cats: we were having a discussioon about what your nick represented, and decided it would be easier just to ask you Apr 05 13:58:33 heh, it is actually an irc thing from the early 90's :) Apr 05 13:58:54 we assumed it was old, I just wondered if it had any meaning :) Apr 05 13:59:22 My first irc nick (from 1990-ish thru 1995) was jhoffa. I was an os2 guy and spent a lot of time on the #os/2 channel. Apr 05 13:59:25 you can say no, lol. I'm curious to a fault Apr 05 14:00:37 One day I couldn't use it anymore. I sent a message to the admins to fix the problem, but signed on as "os2cat" in the meantime. I thought it sounded kinda hipster and I had just gotten my first cat. Apr 05 14:00:43 nt4cats: are you jhoffa on PreCentral? Apr 05 14:01:03 nt4cats: nope, I haven't used jhoffa online since the early 1990's Apr 05 14:01:09 hahaha 'cat' being hipster, that's excellent. Apr 05 14:01:27 we should exclusively speak jive. Apr 05 14:02:34 a while later I got a job doing 32-bit windoze development, so I installed NT4. I thought that chatting with windows fanboys with a nickname of "os2cat" wouldn't be very popular, so I started typing /nick nt4 ... and "cats" seemed to be the perfect way to finish it Apr 05 14:03:13 well I'm amused. I like storytime. Apr 05 14:03:50 I started using nt4cats as my online 'handle' everywhere -- and even though I haven't run a Microsoft OS on my box in 6+ years, it has stuck. Apr 05 14:04:02 too much of a PITA to change at this point Apr 05 14:04:16 I like it. it's unique and mysterious Apr 05 14:04:39 zsoc_wirc: and it is rarely already taken when I sign up for something new :) Apr 05 14:07:04 I just spent 3 minutes wondering why I cant edit /etc/event.d/mobi.optware.openssh using vi in terminal. Maybe I should try mount -o rw,remount / Apr 05 14:07:39 nt4cats: i've never spent quite that long... maybe 2 minutes. but we've all done it ;) Apr 05 14:08:03 zsoc_wirc: it was 3 minutes because I was telling you a story at the same time -- split attention Apr 05 14:08:15 ah. forgiven Apr 05 14:08:52 also, I've probably put in considerably more hours playing with webos in general.. and I've done it recently Apr 05 14:08:57 so that's probably worse Apr 05 14:10:22 zsoc_wirc: and in terminal the "error/message" line at the bottom of vi is not visibile on my Pre's screen Apr 05 14:11:04 ah. even better Apr 05 14:11:59 i've become so used to vim, I instinctively go for the colon when I want to do anything in any editor Apr 05 14:13:23 * nt4cats is quite happy to see ez-ipupdate in the optware feed. Apr 05 14:13:45 this is much easier than when I set this all up by hand using the command line back in July/August of last year Apr 05 14:14:24 nt4cats: that's cause I hate typing things manually just as much as anyone else ... Apr 05 14:14:35 nt4cats: ez-ipupdate is quite a time saver. Apr 05 14:14:49 having a dns directly to my pre blows my friends minds Apr 05 14:15:21 I had it from August until I doctored my Pre right before 1.4 came out :) Apr 05 14:20:56 openssh running on non-standard port + ez-ipupdate all setup and working with a minimum of fuss. Handy! Apr 05 14:27:10 nt4cats: it's less surprising once people realize how standard the stack is Apr 05 14:27:14 how to get { } in vi? Apr 05 14:27:24 i tried copying/pasting it in Apr 05 14:27:29 no luck Apr 05 14:30:18 zsoc_wirc: it wasn't hard to do by hand, either way back when ... but the integration of optware into preware made it even easier Apr 05 14:34:34 argh. mail seems to be wonky again Apr 05 14:34:43 I get notifications yet my inbox shows zero Apr 05 14:47:03 jhojho: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=preware/build.git;a=blob;f=hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile Apr 05 14:47:46 enh? Apr 05 14:47:52 taking a look Apr 05 14:47:54 jhojho: completely untested Apr 05 14:48:11 just a packaging proof of concept Apr 05 14:48:27 is there a .config? Apr 05 14:48:38 jhojho: the patch patches the defconfig Apr 05 14:49:14 jhojho: it needs to be adjusted with regards to the discussions over the last week or so. Apr 05 14:49:23 okay. Apr 05 14:49:41 but that can now all be done in the repo, and the repackaging will be automatica Apr 05 14:49:50 personally, I would rather see a .config in git Apr 05 14:50:14 so that we are clear on what is being changed. the kernel patch should be the absolute minimum Apr 05 14:50:17 jhojho: it's easier to move forward a patch to Palm's defconfig Apr 05 14:50:31 jhojho: see the first lines of the patch Apr 05 14:51:09 oops, looks like I forgot to commit that Apr 05 14:51:39 also. not really a fan of the "uber" name.. I like the greased weasel series of kernels =) Apr 05 14:52:07 jhojho: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=blob;f=overclocking/opp6-720-opp7-800-min-opp5.patch Apr 05 14:53:02 see line 34 in that patch Apr 05 14:53:11 the default governor should be userspace Apr 05 14:53:14 not conservative Apr 05 14:53:28 all of that should be changed via command-line/script Apr 05 14:53:56 jhojho: right - as I said it needs to be adjusted with regards to the discussions Apr 05 14:54:04 point taken Apr 05 14:54:06 jhojho: feel free to go in and edit please Apr 05 14:54:35 that's interesting. I didn't realize that unixpsycho had opted for noop instead of cfq Apr 05 14:54:52 I wonder what testing was done with that Apr 05 14:55:41 rwhitby: does number1pete show up here? we should probably try to get him to extend his program to account for these options Apr 05 14:56:38 jhojho: there's also some good discussion in this channel about 10 hours ago and in #webos about 7.5 hours ago with certain knowledgeable folk regarding these subjects Apr 05 14:57:00 jhojho: you should read the logs Apr 05 14:58:14 jhojho: ok, I'm off to bed - there's the stable build platform on which we can not negotiate the best outcome Apr 05 14:58:21 s/not/now/ Apr 05 14:58:21 rwhitby meant: jhojho: ok, I'm off to bed - there's the stable build platform on which we can now negotiate the best outcome Apr 05 14:58:30 * rwhitby bbt - night all Apr 05 14:58:35 rwhitby: cool. laterz Apr 05 15:04:51 rwhitby: reading the logs now. I had been experimenting with the powersave_bias so this is all good information. hopefully sbromwich will show up on irc when I'm on sometime Apr 05 15:46:12 dtzWill: if I can get it done tonight, yes, otherwise my next free time will be in august Apr 05 15:48:45 sbromwich: hey.. what are we talking about? Apr 05 15:50:34 seeing if I can resolve all the patch conflicts to upgrade the kernel Apr 05 15:50:54 adding the -rt patch would be nice too Apr 05 15:51:33 sbromwich: out of curiosity, why 2.6.25 in particular? or just going for one version at a time? :) Apr 05 15:52:23 because 2.6.32 will not apply to 2.6.24 without all the intervening patches Apr 05 15:53:11 sbromwich: haha okay that's what I was guessing :):). good luck sir :D Apr 05 15:53:35 thanks Apr 05 15:53:49 I think there's only a few hundred biggies Apr 05 15:53:59 sbromwich: I haven't poked at it much, but doesn't the device ship with binary modules tied to a particular kernel version? (and wouldn't those break on newer versions conceivably?) Apr 05 15:54:22 yes Apr 05 15:55:08 I would note that if I break my phone I just tell the phone guy at work to buy me another Apr 05 15:55:29 so I'm not *too* concerned about blowing it up Apr 05 15:56:28 have him buy me one, too? Apr 05 15:58:23 only if you want to help me admin a fleet of mission critical aix boxes that run the local health authority Apr 05 15:59:36 sure, if you don't mind that I'm grossly underqualified and would be good mostly for fetching you coffee and such Apr 05 16:01:09 eeewwww aix Apr 05 16:01:09 :S Apr 05 16:01:22 mmm... you probably wouldn't pass the entrance exam then ;-) Apr 05 16:01:36 aix is just another flavour of unix Apr 05 16:01:49 is it still being developed? :> Apr 05 16:01:53 it's nice playing on a box with 80 processors though Apr 05 16:01:56 or ibm abandoned it long time ago? :> Apr 05 16:01:57 oh yes. Apr 05 16:02:16 it's very much being developed and is used a lot more than you think Apr 05 16:02:34 we mostly use solaris here at work Apr 05 16:02:39 aix 7 beta is out in summer, power 7 chips should be out around then Apr 05 16:02:46 *nod* Apr 05 16:02:47 IBM never abandons anything. Apr 05 16:03:02 idw2k-irc: not true Apr 05 16:03:10 I just put the gnu tools on any system I use to get a consistent environment Apr 05 16:03:17 they abandoned their entire hard drive line Apr 05 16:03:25 they abandoned their entire laptop and desktop line Apr 05 16:03:43 i can see ibm abandoning their entire server line sooner or later Apr 05 16:03:48 I think "sold" might be more appropriate Apr 05 16:04:10 they want to concentrate on servers and services as that's where the margin is Apr 05 16:04:23 actually what i read Apr 05 16:04:30 said they were turning away from ALL hardware Apr 05 16:04:37 and just focusing on services and software Apr 05 16:04:38 we just dropped $80k to enable 4 CPUs, for example Apr 05 16:04:44 well yes, I meant in terms of architecture...they're still supporting and even selling new AS/400s Apr 05 16:04:48 they aren't turning away from ppc Apr 05 16:05:04 they're making too much money off it Apr 05 16:05:23 maybe off of you :P Apr 05 16:05:32 i only know of a handful of places using it anymore Apr 05 16:05:34 and the banks, and the government, yes Apr 05 16:05:41 government? no Apr 05 16:05:46 it's very much a back-end os these days Apr 05 16:05:47 gov is rapidly moving away from IBM Apr 05 16:05:47 yes. Apr 05 16:06:06 gov here in NS is all AIX for mission critical stuff Apr 05 16:06:16 federal gov is all sun Apr 05 16:06:17 :P Apr 05 16:06:34 quite possibly Apr 05 16:06:38 nobody uses ibm anymore unless they're supporting some old legacy stuff Apr 05 16:06:46 at least in government Apr 05 16:07:06 yap like we Apr 05 16:07:07 as I said... not here in NS Apr 05 16:07:11 we moved from aix to solaris Apr 05 16:07:24 and not in healthcare as I talk to my counterparts all he way across the country to calgary Apr 05 16:08:02 my servers are the only ones in the DC that habitually hit 100% uptime year after year Apr 05 16:08:15 which is actually bad Apr 05 16:08:24 sorry sir but that is a horrible practice Apr 05 16:08:25 10in+ to vpenis Apr 05 16:08:25 :D Apr 05 16:08:26 and i would fire you Apr 05 16:08:30 :( Apr 05 16:08:55 for why? Apr 05 16:09:07 having HA is good, having 100% uptime and never patching and power cycling hardware is horrible administrative practice Apr 05 16:09:19 you're jumping to conclusions there Apr 05 16:09:25 google partition mobility Apr 05 16:09:32 i dont need to Apr 05 16:09:41 you must mistake me for some luser Apr 05 16:09:41 if I want to work on the hardware I just move the lpar to another machine Apr 05 16:09:42 heh Apr 05 16:10:06 and in the healthcare world we have to hew to vendor standards very precisely Apr 05 16:10:28 http://www.explosm.net/comics/2002/ lol hahahahahahaahah Apr 05 16:10:37 I still have a 4.3 box running in the back because the vendor for DI has only had their new product out for a year Apr 05 16:12:55 and that box has been running long enough to expose a bug that makes uptime show negative values Apr 05 16:13:22 always nice to see a box up for -95 days. Apr 05 16:14:18 that's the new model with the flux capacitor, right? Apr 05 16:14:46 it's a... B80, I think Apr 05 16:14:52 or possibly F50 Apr 05 16:15:11 bought in... 2001? Apr 05 16:15:25 sorry, bad 80s reference joke Apr 05 16:23:32 sbromwich: did you say 80 processors? Apr 05 16:24:39 yeah Apr 05 16:25:14 fancy Apr 05 16:25:29 we have a couple of p570's that are fairly well loaded with extra CECs Apr 05 16:25:44 idw2k-irc: MvFly!!!! Apr 05 16:25:55 s/MvFly/McFly/ Apr 05 16:25:56 nt4cats|away meant: idw2k-irc: McFly!!!! Apr 05 16:26:09 my M9000 crushes your inferior IBM! Apr 05 16:26:10 :P Apr 05 16:26:22 oh thank god somebody got it Apr 05 16:26:30 nt4cats|away: back to your meeting :D Apr 05 16:27:39 idw2k-irc: At 38 years old (39 in June) -- those films are right in my wheelhouse. Apr 05 16:27:57 64 quad core cpus with quad threads per core Apr 05 16:28:01 256 gigs of ram Apr 05 16:28:03 BWAHAHAHA Apr 05 16:28:29 congrats Apr 05 16:29:45 using minimum memory phase right now Apr 05 16:29:49 could upgrade to 4 terabyte Apr 05 16:30:04 I have 65 quad core cpus with penta threads per core and 257 gigs of RAM on mine. Apr 05 16:30:45 nt4cats: but you run windows on it... Apr 05 16:31:06 loot-: but it is Windows ME, so it is faster. Apr 05 16:32:14 * loot- syndrop.c's you Apr 05 16:34:40 * zsoc_wirc nukes you on port 139 Apr 05 16:35:03 haha Apr 05 16:35:10 bust out click.exe and go to town Apr 05 16:35:45 speaking of port 139, i'm working on a trouble ticket for samba shares Apr 05 16:35:46 hah Apr 05 17:07:37 hi Apr 05 17:08:42 getting my pre from ebay. back to palm Apr 05 17:11:17 interesting Apr 05 17:12:35 bpadalino: hm? Apr 05 17:13:17 over the past couple of weeks i've noticed the irc usage go up and down .. we're at a medium level now .. 141 people .. i think 160 or 170 is where we kinda top out Apr 05 17:13:46 bpadalino: yep. I've seen lows under 100 too Apr 05 17:13:54 oh interesting .. Apr 05 17:14:05 in other news, my left cheek is still numb from the dentist Apr 05 17:14:11 and i'm hungry for lunch :( Apr 05 17:14:33 bpadalino: do you have a palm developer forum nick? Apr 05 17:15:06 i don't think so Apr 05 17:15:25 if i signed up, it would be the same as this tho Apr 05 17:15:29 i am apparently not very original Apr 05 17:17:12 but you are consistent Apr 05 17:19:17 indeed Apr 05 17:25:37 sms contact per tone still doesnt install Apr 05 17:25:50 wow i fuggeled that patch name Apr 05 17:37:41 it has yet to be updated Apr 05 17:41:12 no one has come out and said it, but I think it's been orphaned and needs a developer to pick up the ball and run with it Apr 05 17:41:30 isn't its entire functionality duplicated in another patch now? Apr 05 17:41:44 that does other things Apr 05 17:43:10 not sure Apr 05 17:43:16 I don't use it Apr 05 17:47:43 it says it was updated last night Apr 05 18:03:40 Is the App Catalog down for anybody else or is it just me? Apr 05 18:06:49 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ Apr 05 18:07:24 I mean the App Catalog on the phone itself Apr 05 18:12:25 oh Apr 05 18:12:33 its a url tho, that should work ^_^ Apr 05 18:13:22 Mitalis: "could not be completed ... try again later" Apr 05 18:13:34 Mitalis: works for me Apr 05 18:13:56 oh waaait Apr 05 18:14:05 if you go into an app it errors Apr 05 18:14:28 I get the main scene, but if I click anywhere I get the error Apr 05 18:15:55 same here Apr 05 18:16:26 i can do the browse parts Apr 05 18:16:29 but clicking on apps errors Apr 05 18:16:51 I did "what's new" and got the error ... "what's new" just worked now Apr 05 18:17:05 now an app worked Apr 05 18:17:09 maybe they fixed it Apr 05 18:18:36 yeah, it's working again for me Apr 05 18:20:09 someone tripped on the cords Apr 05 18:41:28 blah... why is it I can get a perfectly good x window setup working quite nicely on the Pre but can't get a stupid SSH connection established.... Apr 05 18:44:07 I love that the headphones jack is a standard 1/8" plug. But about half the time I use it, the sensor that detects whether it has a plug in it or not gets "stuck", and I spend the next 20-30 minutes plugging and unplugging the 1/8" head phones plug into the slot until I can by chance get the friggin' sensor to reset. Apr 05 18:44:19 http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2010/04/palm-pre-rant.html Apr 05 18:44:26 this is a load sensor in the codec right? Apr 05 18:44:41 that blog calls for a recall but I think this could be software Apr 05 18:44:57 and it's pre not pixi so it should be an apps software fix (omap3) Apr 05 18:53:52 tmzt_: I'm 75% sure it's a software problem Apr 05 18:55:00 has anybody took apart a dead pre and inspected the mechanical side of things real well yet? Apr 05 19:01:05 btw... the treo 700p Apr 05 19:01:11 also had the stuck thing going on Apr 05 19:01:29 err 755p Apr 05 19:01:40 cause I had a 2.5mm jack that had the problem too Apr 05 19:03:49 tmzt_: http://forums.palm.com/t5/webOS-Software/Speaker-not-working-after-unplugging-headphone/m-p/206541 (you should be able to exchange the hardware if necessary) Apr 05 19:10:19 lemketron: although I agree it happens more with some hardware than others, I can get it to happen on any hardware. it's a bug in the 'mediaserver' gstreamer application imo Apr 05 19:11:07 hmmm. I haven't heard that, but would be interested to hear if you can come up with a reliable way to reproduce it!! Apr 05 19:11:08 are sip voip apps possible yet? Apr 05 19:11:40 does sprint recognize the "oreo" effect as a hardware problem and do replacements Apr 05 19:12:15 lemketron: sure I can Apr 05 19:15:04 lemketron: the reason I've postulated this Apr 05 19:15:06 btw Apr 05 19:15:31 sampson, my sprint store said that "oreo was added intentionally by palm, otherwise it wouldn't slide, this is normal" Apr 05 19:15:31 is because the easiest way to fix it is reinsterting a plug while streaming music, with something like pandora Apr 05 19:15:54 the rep then pulled out his own pre and showed me it's oreo, worst case I had ever seen Apr 05 19:16:30 when you are streaming music, the application is sinked directly to mediaserver, and mediaserver becomes your 'Source', which is connected to your pcm_out Sink, viewable with pcm_out.monitor Apr 05 19:16:39 pulse audio descriptions, of course. Apr 05 19:19:49 i never saw the oreo crap until i got my third pre Apr 05 19:19:57 they're sending a fourth now Apr 05 19:20:06 mine rotates like half an inch Apr 05 19:20:45 wth are there still audio lags in 1.4 Apr 05 19:20:46 :( Apr 05 19:21:25 nebula: explain your environment, i'll tell you how to get me a log Apr 05 19:21:42 lemketron: the replacement might be the easiest way but I'm still not sure why there's no software fix Apr 05 19:21:48 or what they fix in the replacements Apr 05 19:22:33 zsoc_wirc: as in the input device is not feeding the plug events to gstreamer/pulse quickly enough? Apr 05 19:22:36 or it's missing some Apr 05 19:23:00 why is gstreamer directing output anyway, isn't that pulse's job? Apr 05 19:23:11 ... Apr 05 19:23:16 zsoc_wirc: i think it's just a global issue, i've noticed it in a bunch of apps Apr 05 19:23:36 seems to be lack of playing simultaneous sounds Apr 05 19:23:36 mediasever is a gstreamer application that handles EVERYTHING between the application layer and pulseaudio Apr 05 19:23:53 nebula: that's a mojo api limitation. Apr 05 19:23:55 yeah Apr 05 19:24:09 boo. Apr 05 19:24:11 ;) Apr 05 19:24:17 er, everything except phone calls Apr 05 19:24:31 phone calls directly access the audio through asm to the driver Apr 05 19:24:35 exactly, hence using # and * for a metronome :( Apr 05 19:24:41 from what I can gather Apr 05 19:24:53 yup, weird they haven't addressed that yet Apr 05 19:25:14 well the media team is 'newish' Apr 05 19:25:31 but maybe one day I'll email chris M and give him my suggestions Apr 05 19:25:41 i could tell, my bugs were never "looked at" Apr 05 19:25:51 they just.. went somewhere and died Apr 05 19:28:10 tmzt_: my bother is is on Pre #6 Apr 05 19:28:19 and htye have "fixed" his headphone jack 3 times Apr 05 19:30:14 lemketron: if Palm will opensource mediaserver, I will fix the bug :D Apr 05 19:33:26 do you guys know if the Pre closes ports by default? Apr 05 19:34:23 phil_bw: ports aren't a magical thing sitting open like a door Apr 05 19:34:37 i've got ssh setup in my debian environment and it *was* working (while having a broken dropbear server installed) it's now deleted and ssh quit working Apr 05 19:35:56 Do we know if Verizon Blocks port 80 for lightyhttp? Apr 05 19:44:28 phil_bw: I hit a similar problem with an upgrade somewhere along the line and had to, I think, ipkg-opt install -force-reinstall openssh Apr 05 19:44:46 I just reinstalled dropbear Apr 05 19:44:53 that works too :-) Apr 05 19:44:56 although it stays broken Apr 05 19:45:01 the debian sshd works Apr 05 19:45:11 *nod* Apr 05 19:45:22 I've only used openssh Apr 05 19:45:39 I believe that's what I am actually using Apr 05 19:46:07 now if it weren't so bloody slow Apr 05 19:48:00 keep pinging the pre in another window Apr 05 19:48:14 I also use novaterm to ping the pc I'm coming in from Apr 05 19:48:29 helps stop the radio turning off Apr 05 19:48:32 i use novaproxy all the time :) Apr 05 19:49:26 I have problems with novaterm and linefeeds editing file, dunno if it's my term or not but it's easier to ssh in and be a "real" vt100 Apr 05 19:49:49 did terminal ever get rereleased/ Apr 05 19:49:50 ? Apr 05 19:50:04 Mousey: yes Apr 05 19:50:05 sbromwich, I'm in the same boat Apr 05 19:50:12 yay Apr 05 19:50:15 nano doesn't work right in novaterm Apr 05 19:50:18 Mousey: the service was updated to fix the 1.4 crash Apr 05 19:50:27 ah, good to know it's not just me phil_bw ;-) Apr 05 19:50:29 phil_bw: don't use nano (ever). Apr 05 19:50:39 * Mousey cheers, installs Apr 05 19:50:44 joe fails in some particularly amusing ways Apr 05 19:50:51 vi also, but not quite so bad Apr 05 19:50:58 emacs? Apr 05 19:51:05 nt4cats, and what's wrong with nano? it's quick and simple Apr 05 19:51:11 I don't use emacs Apr 05 19:51:19 nano: it's like an editor with training wheels Apr 05 19:51:22 if joe is good enough for alan cox it's good enough for me Apr 05 19:51:23 nano: and clown shoes Apr 05 19:51:51 vi seems to work well enough on the Pre (small quirks, but it is workable for me) Apr 05 19:51:58 I'm not writing source code in the thing Apr 05 19:52:08 just making a few quick changes to config files here and there Apr 05 19:52:16 phil_bw: well, those clown shoes are very becoming on you, then ;) Apr 05 19:52:51 nt4cats, if in the end we both wind up with the same file, what's the problem? Apr 05 19:53:14 I'm trying to write code... lf that has a combo del character is noy helpful ;-) Apr 05 19:54:41 phil_bw: "which editor do you use" is sorta like "which religion do you like" or "what politician do you vote for" Apr 05 19:54:52 phil_bw: only more passionate for me ;) Apr 05 19:55:18 well alright Apr 05 19:55:43 should have probably just said I use echo for everything Apr 05 19:56:30 cat > file.c Apr 05 19:57:02 theres a tool for every job Apr 05 19:57:11 and sometimes there are multiple tools for a job Apr 05 19:57:28 cat to create new files .. and sed for when you make a mistake Apr 05 19:57:34 saying something as vague as an editor, browser, or operating system is the "best" is clear zealotry Apr 05 19:57:37 :P Apr 05 19:57:46 indeed Apr 05 19:57:48 i <3 Apr 05 19:57:58 I prefer "least worst" Apr 05 19:58:12 i use what works best for the situation Apr 05 19:58:13 :P Apr 05 19:58:15 if it works for you then use it Apr 05 19:58:22 exactly Apr 05 19:59:02 VIM IS CLEARLY THE BEST EDITOR Apr 05 19:59:18 duh Apr 05 20:00:46 zsoc_wirc: prove it! there are japanese sex robots running emacs... now what! huh? what! Apr 05 20:00:49 * loot- puffs chest out Apr 05 20:00:50 haha Apr 05 20:01:27 do they write pr0n in emacs? Apr 05 20:01:36 do-sexy-time.el Apr 05 20:01:46 heh Apr 05 20:43:35 so I've decided I really like the pixi Apr 05 20:43:52 lol Apr 05 20:44:04 pixi or pixi plus ? Apr 05 20:45:14 my first conference paper got accepted Apr 05 20:45:16 :D Apr 05 20:46:19 congrats Apr 05 20:57:35 thanks Apr 05 21:09:12 PuffTheMagic: I'm not sure what that means Apr 05 21:10:32 conference paper ? Apr 05 21:10:59 he wrote a paper that will be published and he gets to present it to a big audience interested in the subject Apr 05 21:14:10 hi Apr 05 21:14:35 ahm... why can't i download quake? Apr 05 21:15:14 "Saved Package List" in the bottom of the main scene? Apr 05 21:16:39 hä? Apr 05 21:17:36 what do you mean? Apr 05 21:19:28 is quake not avaible for 1.4.1 ? Apr 05 21:20:42 oilsworkn: yes, what about saved package list? Apr 05 21:20:46 PuffTheMagic: oh, that sounds fun. good job. Apr 05 21:21:30 i was just questioning its place on the main scene Apr 05 21:22:15 PuffTheMagic: congrats on paper. what conference? Apr 05 21:28:24 where did my home pc just go Apr 05 21:42:27 oilsworkn: we had a discussion about it here, rod convinced me it was the right place for it Apr 05 21:42:54 hippies Apr 05 21:42:57 * oilsworkn thinks its wicked ugly Apr 05 21:43:31 oilsworkn: so give a suggestion on where it should go Apr 05 21:43:37 i suggested a separator, originally Apr 05 21:45:35 i dont understand why they're being connected so Apr 05 21:47:36 oilsworkn: the idea is it is a functionality of preware. Preware installs and uninstalls software. Save/Restore is actually doing the backup Apr 05 21:48:05 But that is a scene in Preware to save the current state of installed software, and to reinstall/restore a saved state (which is the installing part) Apr 05 21:50:59 that doesn't make any sense Apr 05 21:51:16 oilsworkn: ask rod, it's all his idea Apr 05 21:52:28 i thought the idea was to save the list of packages, and to simply have the restore function open preware with the list Apr 05 21:52:37 i dont understand why it is its own section in preware now Apr 05 21:56:17 and its using a html5 db? Apr 05 21:56:48 eww Apr 05 21:58:03 oilsworkn: cookie is too small, has to use depot Apr 05 21:59:42 too small for what? a list of package id's? Apr 05 21:59:58 STOP ASKING ME I DIDN'T DO ANY OF IT Apr 05 21:59:59 :p Apr 05 22:00:13 and i've now screwed up pushing this tag twice lol Apr 05 22:00:38 you're the only one to reply Apr 05 22:03:32 i'm just telling you where it sounded like he was coming from Apr 05 22:05:50 well you're probably doing a terrible job at it Apr 05 22:05:53 :) Apr 05 22:13:21 morning Apr 05 22:13:47 mornin' Apr 05 22:14:38 evening Apr 05 22:14:53 later afternoon Apr 05 22:14:53 oil: 4K was too small for the saved package list, cause it has to include the source json data in case someone doesn't have the feed enabled. Apr 05 22:15:07 uNiXpSyChO: so the kernel build infrastructure is in place Apr 05 22:15:18 ohhhh? Apr 05 22:15:19 rwhitby: i just noticed Apr 05 22:15:28 rwhitby: is jauder online here? Apr 05 22:15:46 I'm hand patching to see if I can get the -rt patch installed... if I have a test kernel tree can I throw it somewhere for a valid compile? Apr 05 22:15:53 I was just going to compile directly on my pre Apr 05 22:16:35 uNiXpSyChO: he is often here, yes. Apr 05 22:16:38 ew, compile on the pre, hehe Apr 05 22:16:49 what's wrong with that? Apr 05 22:16:50 why would you ant to do that? Apr 05 22:17:08 uNiXpSyChO: preware/build.git in the hardware/uber-kernel-pre directory Apr 05 22:17:09 to see if I can get a kernel running with the rt patches Apr 05 22:17:17 rwhitby: he had some questions and i'd figure i'll answer them here Apr 05 22:17:49 sbromwich: cross-compile dont work? Apr 05 22:17:59 ~seen jhojho Apr 05 22:18:01 jhojho <~jh@122-116-26-44.HINET-IP.hinet.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #webos-internals, 7h 13m 10s ago, saying: 'rwhitby: reading the logs now. I had been experimenting with the powersave_bias so this is all good information. hopefully sbromwich will show up on irc when I'm on sometime'. Apr 05 22:18:17 the pre is faster than the computer I'm running on at the moment Apr 05 22:18:27 sbromwich: OMG! Apr 05 22:18:32 I think. Apr 05 22:18:33 hahaha\ Apr 05 22:18:36 PIII 600 Apr 05 22:18:42 ... Apr 05 22:18:51 yes, the pre is much faster Apr 05 22:19:01 my machine lost its magic smoke and until the new hardware arrives I'm stuck with something from the basement Apr 05 22:19:23 although I suppose I could do distcc or something Apr 05 22:21:16 rwhitby: very well written disclaimer :) Apr 05 22:21:23 also the -rt patch only got 11 rejects versus a few thousand for 2.6.25 Apr 05 22:21:37 uNiXpSyChO: it's the GPL license text :) Apr 05 22:22:33 sbromwich: i'd doubt the binary-only modules will load but i'll be curious to see how you make out. Apr 05 22:23:01 oh, there's binary only modules? Apr 05 22:23:02 sod. Apr 05 22:23:09 I thought the whole thing was open source :-/ Apr 05 22:23:14 sbromwich: yep... wifi, bridgedriver, etc... Apr 05 22:23:18 I'll give it a bash anyway and see how far I can get Apr 05 22:23:21 *sigh* Apr 05 22:23:26 sbromwich: oops. bridgedriver is open Apr 05 22:23:30 not quite the open source phone of my dreams then :-( Apr 05 22:23:43 woo, think a transformer just blew up outside Apr 05 22:23:46 sbromwich: i had trouble twaeking my kernels because of those modules Apr 05 22:23:52 still winner of "least worst phone" though Apr 05 22:24:00 I don't suppose you have a list of them anywhere? Apr 05 22:24:10 or a pointer to said list? Apr 05 22:24:24 sbromwich: if you build with not using Source module version magic the modules *might* load. Apr 05 22:24:44 k Apr 05 22:25:00 oh... I hear talk of an emulator... did you get your kernel booting under that? Apr 05 22:25:28 sd8xxx bridgedriver bc_example omaplfb pvrsrvkm Apr 05 22:25:38 danke Apr 05 22:25:57 bridgedriver is open now and compiles, the others are missing and are not GPL from modinfo Apr 05 22:26:34 bum. Apr 05 22:26:41 well, this might be useful as a proof of concept Apr 05 22:27:22 yep. let us know how you make out. I tired Preempt but fails... i knew it would but thought i'd humor myself. Apr 05 22:27:44 working on getting the 3rd of 11 failed patches integrated Apr 05 22:27:50 so far it's been pretty straightforward Apr 05 22:28:27 I think I'm about to hit a bit of a sod with include/asm-arm/futex.h as there's arm assembler and I haven't touched that before Apr 05 22:29:01 i havent touched assumbler since 6502C Apr 05 22:30:08 80186 and some TI DSP chip were my last encounters Apr 05 22:30:13 TMS320C52? Apr 05 22:30:29 neither of which will really get me anywhere here ;-) Apr 05 22:30:53 i would have to restore backup tapes for my brain from the mid 80's to remember which exact chip :) Apr 05 22:31:32 I stopped in 97 Apr 05 22:33:02 rwhitby: I assume we have to make/add the patch to PmNetConfigManager in that package Apr 05 22:36:00 uNiXpSyChO: yeah, I need to update AUPT to support custom bits of code in the postinst and prerm scripts. Apr 05 22:38:31 sbromwich: i asked you about binary modules last night, and your reply had me thinking you had some gameplan to handle that Apr 05 22:38:38 sbromwich: was curious/excited to see that hehe Apr 05 22:39:15 try it and see Apr 05 22:39:25 worst case scenario it's a failed experiment Apr 05 22:40:30 I just wish someone hadn't had the desire to reformat the code to make it look "pretty" and thus breaking patches Apr 05 22:40:49 i cant say i blame them Apr 05 22:41:00 i cant stand looking at fugly code Apr 05 22:41:17 why cant people just write like dennis richie? Apr 05 22:41:18 this isn't fugly code though Apr 05 22:41:22 make it easy on all of us, for the love of god Apr 05 22:41:37 __futex_atomic_op("mov %0, %3", ret, oldval, uaddr, oparg); Apr 05 22:41:39 to: Apr 05 22:41:40 __futex_atomic_op(" mov %0, %3\n", Apr 05 22:41:41 ret, oldval, uaddr, oparg); Apr 05 22:41:47 sbromwich: understood re: experiment. good luck :) Apr 05 22:41:58 thanks :-) Apr 05 22:42:49 i still dont understand peoples obssession with removing white space from code Apr 05 22:43:01 instead of doing things proper like Apr 05 22:43:04 if (blah) Apr 05 22:43:05 { Apr 05 22:43:11 yourcodehere; Apr 05 22:43:12 } Apr 05 22:43:15 turned into Apr 05 22:43:45 if(blah){OmGl4570FuNc710N();} Apr 05 22:43:58 job security, usually Apr 05 22:44:12 job security? Apr 05 22:44:30 mmm interesting Apr 05 22:44:32 http://forums.precentral.net/2356081-post23.html Apr 05 22:44:35 if you're the only one who can understand the code and it's mission critical... job for life. Apr 05 22:44:40 every time ive done professional code... its always exceptionally frowned upon to cut corners and kill white space Apr 05 22:44:45 I see that a lot in healthcare Apr 05 22:44:49 oh yeah Apr 05 22:45:04 my code is as spread out as it can get, and I assure you, I'm the only one who can read it... Apr 05 22:45:24 why does everyone always think that too? Apr 05 22:45:25 its CODE Apr 05 22:45:32 I insist that my team document all their code, check it into svn, do proper test runs, etc... The unix dept is the only dept at our HA that is so stringent. Apr 05 22:45:36 i dont care how you format it... in the end i will figure it out either way Apr 05 22:45:50 the patient registration people did a rollout of new code to the desktops without testing it in the field first. Apr 05 22:45:56 developmestruction at its finest. Apr 05 22:45:56 oh I don Apr 05 22:46:01 't do it so people cant read it Apr 05 22:46:06 I just don't comment worth a crap Apr 05 22:46:22 ya im not a comment nazi either tbh Apr 05 22:46:32 comments are for people that probably shouldnt be coding in the first place Apr 05 22:46:35 lol Apr 05 22:46:39 if the code is reasonably legible comments are laregely unnecessary Apr 05 22:46:41 like... ok comment your function header Apr 05 22:46:48 but comments after every 2 lines of code? Apr 05 22:46:52 I prefer to have debug printfs that double as comments Apr 05 22:47:02 that's a sign of a consultant being paid by the line Apr 05 22:47:20 I tend to think of the comment as a replacement for delete when I don't want to use a piece of code anymore... Apr 05 22:47:46 not i... i love deleting crap code Apr 05 22:47:53 i keep revs of everything anyways Apr 05 22:47:58 so who needs garbage code Apr 05 22:48:01 nuke and move on Apr 05 22:48:03 I always think "I'll need that code later" Apr 05 22:48:14 that's what cvs/svn/git are for Apr 05 22:48:19 exactly Apr 05 22:48:21 then two years later I see it and think "why is this still here" Apr 05 22:48:24 svn diff -rnnnn file.pl Apr 05 22:48:36 This channel officially moves too fast for me to keep up. Apr 05 22:48:43 *grin* Apr 05 22:49:03 er, well _while_ i'm debugging compiler errors Apr 05 23:05:30 hello? Apr 05 23:06:08 hi? Apr 05 23:07:48 hey would you happen to know how to read NV_items. Apr 05 23:08:37 I'm SSH'd into my pre and I want to read certain NV_items but I'm not having any luck Apr 05 23:09:30 NV_items ? Apr 05 23:10:50 * rwhitby bbl Apr 05 23:11:53 yes ummm thats what they're called I wrote to them like this: sudo PmModemFactory –n write 9047 Apr 05 23:13:10 ah, screwing with the modem ? Apr 05 23:15:13 wouldnt QPST do the same thing? Apr 05 23:20:11 yes i am Apr 05 23:20:33 it should but I dont know how to read NV_items in OPST Apr 05 23:21:05 there is a menu option to read NV_Items IIRC. i have used it before to hack radio firmware Apr 05 23:22:43 hmm taking a look now Apr 05 23:24:54 RF NV manager looks like it Apr 05 23:25:02 cool Apr 05 23:25:53 morphis would know more, iirc he completely reverse engineered all functions of the radio in the Pre Apr 05 23:28:33 why did he do that Apr 05 23:29:55 to get rid of all the palm bits .. Apr 05 23:30:01 fsp.org i believe Apr 05 23:30:02 and make it a fully open source phone Apr 05 23:30:10 lol Apr 05 23:30:11 at least i think he's will the freesmartphone people Apr 05 23:30:37 s/will/with/ Apr 05 23:30:37 zsoc meant: at least i think he's with the freesmartphone people Apr 05 23:31:07 is he working on gnu/pre Apr 05 23:31:37 tpift - this pre is free tpift Apr 05 23:32:10 actually it should be tpif - tpif is free Apr 05 23:32:20 oh i fail back to eating Apr 05 23:32:33 recursive acronym failure galore right here Apr 05 23:33:51 that's as bad as i've scene Apr 05 23:33:55 s/scene/seen/ Apr 05 23:33:56 zsoc meant: that's as bad as i've seen Apr 05 23:33:58 ok i'll stop talking Apr 05 23:34:16 I don't suppose I'm inordinately lucky and someone has a chroot for compiling kernels for the pre? Apr 05 23:34:29 I think I have the pre patch and -rt integrated together... maybe Apr 05 23:34:37 sbromwich: there's a general debian chroot for a standard build environment? Apr 05 23:34:49 yeah, something I can download and leave running overnight Apr 05 23:34:52 zsoc: lol Apr 05 23:34:57 I don't have enough space on my pre for a kernel compile Apr 05 23:35:14 sbromwich: otherwise the widk, and it's easy to do in gentoo with crossdev Apr 05 23:35:28 widk? Apr 05 23:35:34 ... are you serious? Apr 05 23:35:36 zsoc: did you use the 800mhz patch? Apr 05 23:35:52 about compiling? Apr 05 23:35:53 yes Apr 05 23:36:12 sbromwich: it's our standard sb2-driven cross compile environment geared towards ub9.10 server -> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_Internals_PDK Apr 05 23:36:15 however I have to do it on a rather elderly machine so it will probably run overnight Apr 05 23:36:26 ub9.10 server is perfect for old machines Apr 05 23:36:27 ah-hah, handy, seeing as I have ubuntu on here Apr 05 23:36:38 i mean, it'll run on desktop _probably_ Apr 05 23:36:39 it is, isn't it? ;-) Apr 05 23:36:55 well, I installed from the alternate disk Apr 05 23:36:56 sbromwich: it's a LOT of downloading tho.. there's toolchains and a doctor image... etc etc Apr 05 23:37:02 that should work then Apr 05 23:37:43 sbromwich: skip the last "make stage" command, you'll be there all day and it's just building things you aren't using for this. You can try make stage'ing a single package in packages/ somewhere to test the toolchain Apr 05 23:37:55 don't forget to have your first born ready to sacrifice Apr 05 23:38:01 and if you don't have that a cat will do Apr 05 23:38:21 thanks for the info Apr 05 23:39:03 sbromwich: np, and i don't mind troubleshooting it, it's a pretty well thought-out environment Apr 05 23:39:24 well, I suppose step one is to get the palm sdk installed... ;-) Apr 05 23:39:34 step 1 is to follow those steps Apr 05 23:39:37 what do you need the palm sdk for? Apr 05 23:39:57 The webOS Internals team strongly suggest apt-get install into that environment only for this purpose. The same installation of Sun Virtualbox which hosts the Palm SDK emulator can host an Ubuntu 9.10 server with very little effort. Apr 05 23:40:03 it's only the virutalbox it needs? Apr 05 23:40:25 I'm confused by your question. Apr 05 23:40:37 You don't need anything from the SDK to run this cross-compiling environment. Apr 05 23:40:39 sbromwich: if you push the source somewhere others could build it for ya :). you really deserve a build machine faster than yuor pre Apr 05 23:40:42 it seems to imply that the palm sdk emulator needs to be installed Apr 05 23:41:05 sbromwich: what it's saying is, if you ALREADY HAVE the SDK installed, you can use that same virtualbox version that it comes with Apr 05 23:41:15 ah, ok Apr 05 23:41:34 I have ubuntu installed with the novaterm client Apr 05 23:41:36 i'd let you ssh into one of my boxes, but right now i have a terminal window open with 6 tabs going to various places and some are chroots are some are ssh's and i have no idea where i am half the time Apr 05 23:41:41 that's pretty much about it Apr 05 23:42:01 sbromwich: if you follow the instructions exactly on that wiki, it'll work. or take dtzWill's advice and let someone else build them Apr 05 23:42:03 let me have a skim through the *whole* document before I start trying to implement what I think should be on there then ;-) Apr 05 23:42:34 if it's a virtualbox I can chuck it on a usb stick and run it off a machine at work next time I bother going to the office Apr 05 23:42:42 sbromwich: good idea Apr 05 23:43:08 sbromwich: I run mine in a headless virtualbox, and SSH to it (using a virtualbox foward from 2222 host to 22 guest), makes life easy Apr 05 23:49:38 hmmm, with a 92 meg bz2 for the toolchain maybe the usb stick option is a little... optimistic Apr 05 23:49:45 Oh, awesome... I seem to have a timezone bug :( Apr 05 23:50:52 and out of curiosity... did anyone else try making /var/log mount with data=writeback instead of /var? Apr 06 00:02:53 rwhitby, why doesnt the backup script copy the feeds out and back in? Apr 06 00:03:33 Anyone else have the issue? And in .au by any chance? rwhitby ? Apr 06 00:04:05 what's the timezone bug? Apr 06 00:04:35 Well, my time rolled back fine at end of our daylight saving here a few days ago... Apr 06 00:04:42 and its gone back another hour now :/ Apr 06 00:04:52 oops Apr 06 00:04:53 and there's no zdump installed on the phone Apr 06 00:04:58 that sucks :-/ Apr 06 00:05:14 sbromwich: 8GB sticks are pretty cheap here. Even 16GBs on sale. Apr 06 00:05:34 oh, the whole shooting match will fit on an 8 gig stick? Apr 06 00:05:45 I can't imagine it won't Apr 06 00:05:50 maybe i'm being stupid tho Apr 06 00:06:09 651 meg for the cross compile directory ;-) Apr 06 00:06:19 how big is 4347676 ? Apr 06 00:06:30 4.2GB Apr 06 00:06:32 bytes? Apr 06 00:06:39 that's how much my entire vbox is so far Apr 06 00:06:47 ah ok Apr 06 00:06:47 and i have all sorts of crazy stuff installed/staged Apr 06 00:07:44 git checkout -b doctor_14 origin/doctor_14 in the toolchain directory? Apr 06 00:08:11 i'm not sure what that comment is exactly Apr 06 00:08:15 i think it's for specific doctor versions Apr 06 00:08:19 i suppose _14 is 1.4 Apr 06 00:08:20 so sure Apr 06 00:08:26 ok Apr 06 00:08:30 I suppose I should try _141 Apr 06 00:09:00 sbromwich: and it would be in /srv/preware Apr 06 00:09:04 ah, no _141, not what I thought it was Apr 06 00:09:05 *nod* Apr 06 00:09:23 doctor version shouldn't matter in this case anyhow Apr 06 00:10:39 Can someone give me a build of the zdump binary, that'll run on a Pre? Apr 06 00:11:18 Seems to be a different arch to i386 ;) Apr 06 00:11:34 how odd ;-) Apr 06 00:11:42 lol Apr 06 00:13:23 anyone here Apr 06 00:13:36 i think we're alone now Apr 06 00:13:46 i got i question about the WebOS QI program Apr 06 00:13:56 maybe you could help me Apr 06 00:14:02 oh, i've never used it before Apr 06 00:14:04 :( Apr 06 00:14:15 make stage fails with 404 on http://palm.cdnetworks.net/rom/pre/p14r0d02252010/sr1ntp140rod/webosdoctorp100ewwsprint.jar Apr 06 00:14:16 do you know about the WEbOs QI Prog? Apr 06 00:14:21 oh Apr 06 00:14:24 i know about it Apr 06 00:14:28 sbromwich: does your box have an internet connection? Apr 06 00:14:36 yup Apr 06 00:14:40 link is broken Apr 06 00:14:43 oh, that link is bad Apr 06 00:14:45 it downloaded the rest of the toolchain ok Apr 06 00:14:59 you can download the doctor and just put it in that folder Apr 06 00:15:00 1 sec Apr 06 00:15:01 should be http://palm.cdnetworks.net/rom/pre/p1411r0d03312010/sr1ntp1411rod/webosdoctorp100ewwsprint.jar Apr 06 00:15:12 thanks bpadalino Apr 06 00:15:24 sbromwich: navigate to /cross-compile/doctors/ and wget that link Apr 06 00:16:04 soea anyone know why when i try and use the themer on WEbOsQI and i clikc load them it says that it is disabled until the Theming Specifications are put in place? Apr 06 00:16:37 probably because theming was causing all sortsa issues beforehand Apr 06 00:16:46 and there was no standard way to put them together ? Apr 06 00:17:00 oh Apr 06 00:17:06 i have no idea lol Apr 06 00:17:13 bpadalino: do you have an alternative for http://palm.cdnetworks.net/rom/pixi/px14r0d02252010/sr1ntp140rod/webosdoctorp200ewwsprint.jar too? Apr 06 00:17:16 i mean i can use the Preware to put themes on it Apr 06 00:17:31 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Webos_Doctor_Versions Apr 06 00:17:37 but after i put a theme on it i have to goback to the default theme befor i can load another one Apr 06 00:17:38 ah, thanks Apr 06 00:17:55 no problemo Apr 06 00:19:33 weird... a reboot has fixed my time issue, so far... Apr 06 00:19:56 burrp Apr 06 00:20:01 lingfish: yo Apr 06 00:20:10 raaaaassssstaaaaaaaaaaa Apr 06 00:20:51 im viewing my palm using a folder on my comp all my music is in the main folder if i make a sub foder named Music and transfer all my music to it will they still be in my playlist? Apr 06 00:21:16 lingfish: ntpdate running on startup? I would have thought it would have stropped out on too much clock skew though Apr 06 00:22:00 anyone? Apr 06 00:22:22 festa: yes Apr 06 00:22:23 Try it with just one album's worth of files and see what happens? Apr 06 00:22:54 ok thanks Apr 06 00:23:24 i figure the phone just searches for .wma and .mp3s in the folder anyway Apr 06 00:23:26 in all folders Apr 06 00:25:00 festa: it searches for many filetypes anywhere in /media/internal, and then checks their metadata to sort them properly Apr 06 00:25:00 sod... bombed out trying to compile openssl Apr 06 00:25:13 define bombed Apr 06 00:25:32 nukes? Apr 06 00:25:36 :] Apr 06 00:25:47 I'm trying to figure out quite where but it failed to compile with errors on libcrypto.so.* and libssl.,so.* Apr 06 00:26:02 sbromwich: try a different package.. something known to build with no DEPs.. like uh.. Apr 06 00:26:15 this is trying to do make stage Apr 06 00:26:20 lingfish: my time is correct on the Pre Apr 06 00:26:31 sbromwich: bison Apr 06 00:26:36 oil: good point - it probably should save the feeds config too Apr 06 00:26:40 zsoc: zs! Apr 06 00:26:42 thanks z Apr 06 00:26:44 anyone know what the mountcfs text doc is? Apr 06 00:26:47 2010-04-05 21:24:21.793 (ERROR) bash[20665] Unidentified executable detected (/srv/preware/cross-compile/packages/openssl/build/src/Configure) Apr 06 00:26:49 sbromwich: cd to packages/bison and 'make stage' Apr 06 00:27:08 root@itssab-aspire:/srv/preware/cross-compile# head -n 3 /srv/preware/cross-compile/packages/openssl/build/src/Configure Apr 06 00:27:09 : Apr 06 00:27:09 eval 'exec perl -S $0 ${1+"$@"}' Apr 06 00:27:09 if $running_under_some_shell; Apr 06 00:27:20 no hash bang? Apr 06 00:27:32 ok Apr 06 00:27:34 sbromwich: I have no idea what you are doing, but please stop :D cd to packages/bison and 'make stage' Apr 06 00:27:40 rwhitby: very, very strange. Apr 06 00:27:44 Dunno what it was Apr 06 00:28:09 it would not be beyond the bounds of possibility that this machine has a dicky ram chip in it too though Apr 06 00:28:39 configure seems to be running happily for bison now Apr 06 00:28:55 sbromwich: note that the WIDK is in no way represented to be a mature cross-compilation environment. I would have preferred to go with an OpenEmbedded setup using palm's config, but they haven't published such. Apr 06 00:29:18 sbromwich: unfortunately ram seems to be a major issue with running cpu emulators in a virtual box Apr 06 00:29:20 So you should not expect polish and should expect problems :-) Apr 06 00:29:21 rwhitby: understood... I'm just happy to get my hands on whatever I can :-) Apr 06 00:29:36 sbromwich: for what you're trying to compile, this should be perfect. and hell, it sets up really fast ;) Apr 06 00:29:40 sbromwich: no worries, with that understanding it should work pretty well Apr 06 00:29:58 how vital is openssl to getting things going? Apr 06 00:30:26 and now bison is compiling Apr 06 00:30:50 make[1]: Leaving directory `/srv/preware/cross-compile/packages/bison/build/src' Apr 06 00:30:50 touch build/armv7.built Apr 06 00:30:54 tada Apr 06 00:31:08 congratulations, you have a working cross compile environment Apr 06 00:31:24 oh, that's it? Apr 06 00:31:36 I was under the misimpression I was building it right now ;-) Apr 06 00:31:37 sbromwich: check Makefile 's for an example of how to use it Apr 06 00:31:44 * sbromwich feels rather cheery now Apr 06 00:31:51 ok Apr 06 00:31:54 sbromwich: nope, you already built it :D ie, vim packages/bison/Makefile Apr 06 00:32:21 basically, you should make a new folder/Makefile for each thing you wan't to build, but you don't _have_ to. Those makefile's will show examples of how to use the ${SB2} env var to your liking Apr 06 00:32:45 ${PANTS} Apr 06 00:33:42 I don't see anything obvious there I need for kernel compilation Apr 06 00:34:07 sbromwich: oh, the kernel compilation stuff is not in there :) Apr 06 00:34:26 sbromwich: it's in preware/build.git/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile Apr 06 00:34:37 no, I have my own kernel tree with -rt applied then the preware patch Apr 06 00:34:48 ta Apr 06 00:35:15 in /srv/preware? Apr 06 00:35:19 sbromwich: it's a basic normal kernel compile - we just set up the toolchain for CROSS_COMPILE to use Apr 06 00:35:48 And that's where I can no longer help. I know nothing about kernels. Apr 06 00:35:50 I need to git-clone from somewhere? Apr 06 00:35:52 *grin* Apr 06 00:35:59 you have been very helpful zsoc, thanks :-) Apr 06 00:36:21 sbromwich: well, build.git is another makefile used for the autobuilder... if what you need rod is saying is in there, you'll welcome to grab it :) Apr 06 00:36:51 I only have /srv/preware/cross-compile, nothing else in there Apr 06 00:37:06 * sbromwich suspects he's missing something obvious (again) Apr 06 00:39:54 sbromwich: git clone git://git.webos-internals.org/preware/build.git in /srv/preware Apr 06 00:40:33 thanks Apr 06 00:45:27 ok I think I've got it... now to see if it compiles :-) Apr 06 00:57:08 did I miss a step? When I try to compile it bombs with: /bin/sh: /srv/preware/build/toolchain/cs08q1armel/build/arm-2008q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc: not found Apr 06 00:57:23 Sounds like the CROSS_COMPILE var is wrong Apr 06 00:58:06 sbromwich: you built your toolchain in /srv/preware/cross-compile Apr 06 00:58:22 and that's where scratchbox should be expecting things Apr 06 00:58:32 if you want to use build.git, you can't use scratchbox Apr 06 00:58:41 ahhhhh Apr 06 00:58:45 sbromwich: from the /srv/preware/build , you can 'make toolchain' Apr 06 00:58:55 I'm getting closer :-) Apr 06 01:07:49 rwhitby....are you here? Apr 06 01:08:45 and palm said bye bye to ad agency Apr 06 01:08:50 modernista sux! Apr 06 01:10:30 They got better (after a while) Apr 06 01:10:45 yeah, the latest ones aren't too terrible .. Apr 06 01:10:49 But the reaction to the early commercials was akin to the advertising agency in the Mr Plow episode of Simpsons Apr 06 01:10:51 they picked up in pixi commercial Apr 06 01:11:11 creepy lady... Apr 06 01:11:59 chrisa, how goes things ? Apr 06 01:12:15 NiteTrek: do you need something? Apr 06 01:12:50 Things go Apr 06 01:13:13 how is spring time out there? Apr 06 01:13:31 Just had a question zsoc...I'm private chatting with him now...thanks. Apr 06 01:13:47 chrisa, got any summer time trip plans for this year ? Apr 06 01:13:50 Spring here is about the same as Winter Apr 06 01:13:56 Don't be fooled, we have no seasons Apr 06 01:14:27 NiteTrek: kk Apr 06 01:14:27 ah, i didn't know .. we're starting to get some nicer weather .. Apr 06 01:14:28 Hmm, debating a tahoe weekend and perhaps Santorini Apr 06 01:14:35 i want to move to cali Apr 06 01:14:35 :) Apr 06 01:14:42 chrisa, Santorini, eh ? never heard of it Apr 06 01:14:57 Island in Greece Apr 06 01:15:07 I want to move to the mountains in Ecuador. 65 degrees 365 days a year. Apr 06 01:15:25 summer in the Mediterranean on an island .. sounds pretty nice Apr 06 01:15:45 Not to mention the exchange rate in greece right now is hilarious Apr 06 01:15:52 (poor greece) Apr 06 01:15:54 ok time for me... first I will watch "fight club" and then sleep Apr 06 01:16:01 en0x: fun dreams :) Apr 06 01:16:02 night en0x Apr 06 01:16:10 nite all Apr 06 01:16:11 en0x: i will keep that information in your log Apr 06 01:16:13 poor greece indeed Apr 06 01:16:16 in so many ways Apr 06 01:16:23 * bhuey dreads the day that iPhone multitasking is announced Apr 06 01:16:41 looks like it'll be April 8th for the announcement Apr 06 01:16:54 * zsoc shrugs Apr 06 01:16:59 i still don't want one Apr 06 01:17:20 i've gotten so used to being able to novaterm and see # Apr 06 01:17:21 dont care it wont be full multitasking Apr 06 01:17:32 now you can do all 3 things apple lets you do on your device at once! Apr 06 01:17:37 I just want to see whose ui paradigm they steal for it Apr 06 01:17:49 deadsix: it won't ? Apr 06 01:18:03 chrisa: well as it is, safari on iphone OS already handles tabs similar to webOS Apr 06 01:18:17 Who knows, but Apple has made it clear in the past they don't think it's a good idea Apr 06 01:18:27 yeah, a lot of security risks, lol Apr 06 01:18:57 @ bhuey it probably wont Apr 06 01:19:34 greetings Apr 06 01:20:20 Apple also probably does not want to risk a user ever encountering a low memory situation Apr 06 01:20:31 So I imagine they'll limit it in some way, if only by process counts or something Apr 06 01:20:38 kernel is compiling, hurrah! Apr 06 01:20:55 * sbromwich crosses his fingers Apr 06 01:21:00 this is so cool.....IRC on webOS...MOBILE!! Apr 06 01:21:10 *grin* Apr 06 01:21:26 chrisa, interesting notion Apr 06 01:21:38 or you can install bitchx in terminal and use that Apr 06 01:21:42 though sad if they choose that route Apr 06 01:23:23 3 tasks unless you buy an app from apple's appstore which will let you raise the app limit by 1 every time you buy it Apr 06 01:25:23 sbromwich: it was a silly jab at the closed nature of the platform. probably in not the best of taste. not meant to be taken seriously, and you're right. Apr 06 01:25:51 Mountaineer: welcome to linux Apr 06 01:26:10 I can't stand iphones myself, I have no great liking for them Apr 06 01:26:37 the mention of multitasking on an iphone made me think of the multitasking in system 9 (or whatever the pre-osx was) Apr 06 01:26:42 Some of the GLES apps on the Pre have really impressed me. I've just now gotten to playing a few. Apr 06 01:27:31 GLES? Apr 06 01:27:44 opengl es Apr 06 01:27:46 3d stuff Apr 06 01:27:49 ahhh Apr 06 01:27:49 the scrolling on the iphone is a bit more fluid .. the email app in iphone os seems to be a bit 'smoother' as well versus email on the pre .. Apr 06 01:28:07 my pre still thinks a google calendar i have is off by a day .. Apr 06 01:28:10 i like the webos email app Apr 06 01:28:13 I would like to think I have tweaked my pre to be more fluid than an iphone Apr 06 01:28:15 and my fb timezone is off as well Apr 06 01:28:44 I'm waiting until the next time I see a friend who owns an iphone to see how her's compares Apr 06 01:29:01 I mean, think of the stock differences between webos 1.0.3 and webos 1.4.1.1 Apr 06 01:29:04 it's night and day imo Apr 06 01:29:35 oh there is absolutely no doubt the performance has gotten significantly better Apr 06 01:29:59 actually... I don't suppose there is anyone from palm here? Apr 06 01:29:59 the omap3 under the hood is underappreciated ..and the guys on those forums saying 'snapdragon' for new hardware are kinda silly .. Apr 06 01:30:32 sbromwich: meet chrisa and geist .. but don't be surprised if you don't get full answers Apr 06 01:30:58 in /etc/fstab /var is mounted data=writeback but surely it should be /var/log that is mounted data=writeback? performance is much smoother that way Apr 06 01:31:05 thanks bpadalino :-) Apr 06 01:31:22 also I care less if /var/log gets corrupted than if /var does Apr 06 01:32:30 sbromwich: you might want to consider sending that directly to the engineering department Apr 06 01:32:48 I might, but tomorrow I start back at work and will have no free time until august Apr 06 01:32:56 although i believe chrisa and geist are both involved in lower level / kernel stuff Apr 06 01:33:08 sbromwich: bah, cut down your sleep by 2 hours a night Apr 06 01:33:25 my doctor put me on pills to stop me doing that Apr 06 01:33:28 i still can't believe how many late nights i had putzing around with this silly phone :( Apr 06 01:33:49 he also prescribed me to have lunch down the pub every day so it's not all bad Apr 06 01:33:51 bpadalino: how can you frown at that? i love my tiny linux box ^_^ Apr 06 01:33:57 heh Apr 06 01:34:15 :( Apr 06 01:34:50 :) Apr 06 01:35:01 kernel/futex.c: In function 'do_futex': Apr 06 01:35:01 include/asm/futex.h:59: error: invalid 'asm': operand number out of range Apr 06 01:35:03 bugger. Apr 06 01:35:18 I know it would end up with me having to frig with assembler again. Apr 06 01:35:26 ^know^knew Apr 06 01:35:33 ouch :/ Apr 06 01:36:35 include/asm/futex.h:59: error: invalid 'asm': operand number out of range Apr 06 01:36:38 __futex_atomic_op("mov %0, %3", ret, oldval, uaddr, oparg); Apr 06 01:36:41 YFW? Apr 06 01:36:56 that's the file that had the whitespace fiddled with Apr 06 01:37:01 maybe it *was* significant Apr 06 01:37:18 time to fiddle the diffs again Apr 06 01:38:17 ah-hah Apr 06 01:38:21 bet it needs a newline. Apr 06 01:39:11 oh christ I hope it's not going to build the whole lot again Apr 06 01:39:31 phew Apr 06 01:39:38 no, and it was newlines after all Apr 06 01:41:01 hooray Apr 06 01:41:09 hooray for \n Apr 06 01:41:36 would have been nicer if someone hadn't tried to be cute with the whitespace Apr 06 01:42:15 what's so wrong with being c u t e with whit e sp ac e? Apr 06 01:43:14 bpadalino: cute Apr 06 01:43:28 I just had a brain explosion Apr 06 01:43:32 when it's done just Apr 06 01:43:32 because someone likes it laid out that way Apr 06 01:43:32 without pointing out to the hard of thinking Apr 06 01:43:32 that they're doing it Apr 06 01:43:39 what is a function/feature called that is no longer used? Apr 06 01:43:42 b(^_^)d Apr 06 01:43:46 deletable? Apr 06 01:43:47 deprecated ? Apr 06 01:43:51 yes thank you Apr 06 01:44:05 what's the opposite of depreciated? Apr 06 01:44:12 appreciated Apr 06 01:44:23 appreciated seems present, i'm looking more for future tense Apr 06 01:44:35 will appreciate Apr 06 01:44:40 anticipated ? Apr 06 01:44:54 maybe. Apr 06 01:45:07 do you perhaps mean the opposite of deprecated? Apr 06 01:45:18 also maybe. Apr 06 01:45:33 "recommended" or if you're being quite firm "requisite" Apr 06 01:45:58 or required on this side of the ocean, possibly Apr 06 02:10:08 I think I must be missing something obvious again... if I run palm-emulator and click on "Start Emulator" how long is it supposed to take before I can ssh in? Apr 06 02:10:45 I have a java process running the emulator but it doesn't seem to be using any cpu time Apr 06 02:14:51 im getting a ipkg update error from WOSQI. Any ideas? Is it because of the servers being faulty? Apr 06 02:16:16 why do so many people ask for wosqi support in here Apr 06 02:16:40 beats me Apr 06 02:16:47 Because it deals with patches feeds? Apr 06 02:16:58 Abyssul: does it update in preware Apr 06 02:17:49 In file included from drivers/misc/vibetonz/vtmdrv.c:53: Apr 06 02:17:49 drivers/misc/vibetonz/VibeOSKernelLinuxTime.c:57: error: expected identifier or '(' before '{' token Apr 06 02:17:55 request permission to say "cock" Apr 06 02:18:13 lol Apr 06 02:19:02 go for it Apr 06 02:19:08 cock. Apr 06 02:19:45 I enjoy Anglo-Saxon profanities. Apr 06 02:20:59 it's a reference to james may off of top gear Apr 06 02:23:22 ok this makes no sense. Apr 06 02:23:27 static inline int fastcall sem_is_locked(struct semaphore *lock) Apr 06 02:23:32 there is an identifier right there. Apr 06 02:23:35 * sbromwich points at it. Apr 06 02:23:36 see? Apr 06 02:23:58 and I can't see sem_is_locked being a reserved word somehow Apr 06 02:28:20 sem_is_locked Apr 06 02:28:20 Defined as a preprocessor macro in: Apr 06 02:28:21 * linux/include/linux/rt_lock.h, line 191 Apr 06 02:28:22 sod. Apr 06 02:28:31 ok fair enough Apr 06 02:31:50 renaming sem_is_locked to palm_sem_is_locked worked, hopefully nothing else palm is using sem_is_locked or it might be in for a nasty surprise... Apr 06 02:44:21 Kernel: arch/arm/boot/Image is ready Apr 06 02:44:25 ftw. Apr 06 02:44:35 "mkimage" command not found - U-Boot images will not be built Apr 06 02:44:40 nftw. Apr 06 02:45:36 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Custom_Kernels Apr 06 02:45:41 *heart* whoever wrote that. Apr 06 02:46:59 sbromwich: we're pretty much the best community ever Apr 06 02:47:19 don't forget to mention the modesty, too. Apr 06 02:47:55 he he Apr 06 02:48:54 * sbromwich doesn't remember kernel compiles being this slow back in the day on PIII's Apr 06 02:51:50 looks like the ipkg build fails Apr 06 02:52:00 ../../scripts/timestamp.py Makefile >> build/armv7/CONTROL/control Apr 06 02:52:00 Could not find platform independent libraries Apr 06 02:52:00 Could not find platform dependent libraries Apr 06 02:52:00 Consider setting $PYTHONHOME to [:] Apr 06 02:52:43 sbromwich: looks like python is not installed well Apr 06 02:52:54 it would appear so Apr 06 02:52:54 sbromwich: you building from cross-compile.git? try adding 'python' to your DEP, I added it to fix that Apr 06 02:53:03 or something is awry with my $PATH Apr 06 02:53:17 oh if it's not installed at all that might be useful, but for some things you want/need python within sb2 Apr 06 02:53:36 [SB2 mapping-armv7 armv7] root@itssab-aspire uber-kernel-pre $ which python Apr 06 02:53:41 /usr/bin/python Apr 06 02:54:31 sbromwich: you might have luck another way, but when I/we poked hat/hit those bugs earlier the clean fix was to just build python within sb2 and stage it Apr 06 02:55:01 ok Apr 06 02:55:04 so it'll end up in /usr/local/bin/python and I think you might want to make sure your path has /usr/local/bin before /usr/bin etc Apr 06 02:55:24 good call Apr 06 02:55:24 sbromwich: python is already in cross-compile so you should be able to just add 'python' to your DEPENDS list Apr 06 02:55:37 sbromwich: also you'll need to build python Apr 06 02:55:49 oh right, he just said that Apr 06 02:55:54 Jack87: haven't seen you in a year and a day Apr 06 02:55:56 all I'm doing is following http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Custom_Kernels Apr 06 02:56:03 Jack87: agreed haven't seen you in some time Apr 06 02:56:32 sbromwich: the host python does seem to work for some things, but the only way that seems to work across platfors/envs is to build python within. Apr 06 02:56:57 hello zsoc and dtzWill i did a bit of traveling lastt few month Apr 06 02:57:02 also getting ready to start school again Apr 06 02:57:07 so this is to build python for both the host and the target system if I understand? Apr 06 02:57:27 does Caj2008 hang out here ata l? Apr 06 02:57:32 sbromwich: errr does that use sb2 at all? Apr 06 02:57:47 I believe I am running sb2 Apr 06 02:57:50 sbromwich: you actually just need python within the guest/target env Apr 06 02:57:55 Caj2008 aka overclock kernel dev Jeff Apr 06 02:57:55 [SB2 mapping-armv7 armv7] root@itssab-aspire python $ make Apr 06 02:57:56 dtzWill: the autobuilder cross compiles fine without sb2, it's just inconvenient Apr 06 02:57:58 would hint so Apr 06 02:58:45 zsoc: I understand that, and I understand how sb2 works to understand that's the case--but it gets really really messy when you do it all by hand Apr 06 02:59:02 dtzWill: then i will stop talking again Apr 06 02:59:31 sbromwich: yeah your prmopt suggests so, but that guide has you set all kinds of env vars that wouldn't be required if you had sb2 to alias them for you Apr 06 02:59:36 zsoc: :( sorry Apr 06 02:59:42 good point **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 06 02:59:56 2010