**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 09 02:59:56 2010 Apr 09 03:00:29 that's sh? Apr 09 03:00:46 I was talking about your postinst scripts Apr 09 03:01:54 get the user to do ls -ld /media/cryptofs/apps/800kernel Apr 09 03:04:12 shes already gone to 500, shoot, I will send you the link Apr 09 03:05:56 http://www.mediafire.com/?zmmzooyjl0i Apr 09 03:06:11 link to ipk, I didnt put the scripts on the server Apr 09 03:06:14 get a user to install and do ls -ld /media/cryptofs/apps/800kernel Apr 09 03:06:30 OK Apr 09 03:10:50 also put in set -e Apr 09 03:10:54 int he scripts Apr 09 03:10:57 up near the top Apr 09 03:11:08 then if something *is* erroring you should get an abort message Apr 09 03:11:14 although the script will terminate Apr 09 03:11:28 http://www.mediafire.com/?mizvi5ttmgn Apr 09 03:11:46 postinst script Apr 09 03:12:46 download ok for ya? Apr 09 03:13:13 yeah Apr 09 03:13:22 want the other too? Apr 09 03:13:31 I would recommend you put something like ">> /tmp/800.log" at the end of every command line Apr 09 03:13:36 no Apr 09 03:13:45 "2>&1 >> /tmp/800.log" Apr 09 03:14:21 and also get the user to do ls -ld /media/cryptofs/apps/800kernel to make sure the directory is being created Apr 09 03:14:35 and underneat #!/bin/sh add in set -e Apr 09 03:14:37 I am doing that just give me a moment Apr 09 03:15:10 two lines of code? Apr 09 03:15:25 or just the ls Apr 09 03:16:09 on every mv, cp, rm, cd Apr 09 03:16:23 basically log everything the script is doing and if there's an error that'll catch it Apr 09 03:16:51 the way the script is written if anything at all doesn't work it'll default back to the built in kernel Apr 09 03:17:31 so I would say there's something not working and without logging into the pre yourself and watching what's happening all I can recommend is trying to log everything Apr 09 03:17:45 possibly look into using script as well to log everything Apr 09 03:18:38 could you check out the ipk on your device and see if you catch anything in the meantime Apr 09 03:19:22 I would have thought it that was true it would go back to 500 MHz Apr 09 03:19:48 it worked fine for me Apr 09 03:20:41 anyway, I must go take my pills and head off to bed Apr 09 03:20:52 Why would it be device specific too weird Apr 09 03:20:52 good luck, and night :-) Apr 09 03:21:09 Thanks for all the help it was appreciated Apr 09 03:22:17 drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 32768 Apr 5 12:09 Apr 09 03:22:45 that is waht ls does Apr 09 03:24:08 * rwhitby bbl Apr 09 03:37:23 ok Apr 09 03:37:56 now that we've got that cleared up Apr 09 03:38:29 anyone here that can help me out. Had my pre screen die, have preware installed but thought there was something about turning development mode on/off that could be installed? Apr 09 03:39:09 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 09 03:40:16 sbromwich, you around? Apr 09 03:40:40 * ka6sox gets ready to flash kernels for testing on his Pre. Apr 09 03:47:53 nobody around... Apr 09 03:58:23 indeed Apr 09 03:58:53 er Apr 09 03:59:27 so hows it goin geist? Apr 09 04:00:00 really getting upset over this terminal crash .. seems to apparently crash in a delete[] and je_free() .. however that works Apr 09 04:06:26 not too bad Apr 09 04:06:35 thinkin if i should hack or play wow this evening Apr 09 04:06:44 ah Apr 09 04:06:45 O Apr 09 04:06:50 I'm doing neither Apr 09 04:06:50 level up Apr 09 04:06:51 tough choice Apr 09 04:06:59 sitting at my desk with a neck massager on my neck Apr 09 04:07:01 yeah, totally Apr 09 04:07:06 ooh that sounds good Apr 09 04:07:10 just cooked a pizza on the grill on my pizza stone Apr 09 04:07:30 which massager do you got? Apr 09 04:07:30 tasty Apr 09 04:08:07 I just have a cheap homedics one, it doesn't get much use, but I was stiff today Apr 09 04:08:23 and yes, the pizza was awesome, takes some skill to get it on the hot stone but it is sure worth it Apr 09 04:08:48 yeah, i bet Apr 09 04:09:51 $20 for the whole kit at costco, stone, giant spatula, grill brush, etc Apr 09 04:15:46 well time for bed Apr 09 04:15:49 * phil_bw wanders off Apr 09 04:19:39 geist, what did you decide? Apr 09 04:28:55 ANyone run up against the trsuted server certificate issue for SSL email? Apr 09 04:30:51 dtzWill: http://www.youtube.com/webosinternals Apr 09 04:30:59 ka6sox: well so far i just went into the other room and watched some tv Apr 09 04:31:42 thats a good plan...I'm watching "Life" now. Apr 09 04:33:13 now i'm making a baked potato Apr 09 04:33:16 and then i dunno Apr 09 04:33:19 i dont think that far ahead Apr 09 04:34:10 geist: you sound like http://twitter.com/twelvetwo :-) Apr 09 04:34:50 in the evenings I prefer to relax too...during the day I do Project Management. Apr 09 04:34:57 rwhitby: nice! Apr 09 04:34:59 oh phil_bw left Apr 09 04:36:18 yeah, that's why i dont tweet all the time Apr 09 04:36:23 no one wants to hear my day Apr 09 04:36:29 rwhitby: do you know if there's a p|c thread yet then? Apr 09 04:37:02 dtzWill: I don't believe so Apr 09 04:37:36 rwhitby: okay, thanks for working with phil_bw on that then Apr 09 04:37:46 dtzWill: you could just drop a post in the existing X11 thread ;) Apr 09 04:38:23 rwhitby: I think I might :) Apr 09 04:44:28 Does anyone know if there is a patch that will allow the Pre to accept a "non-trusted" ssl certificate? Apr 09 04:44:44 I cannot get access to my email via SSL Apr 09 04:46:51 phil_bw: there you are! :) Apr 09 04:46:57 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 09 04:47:03 I can't bloody sleep Apr 09 04:47:03 phil_bw: thanks for the video, and thanks for uploading it :) Apr 09 04:47:10 phil_bw: oh :(, sorry to hear that Apr 09 04:47:13 I'm going to go make a posting now... Apr 09 04:47:27 phil_bw: oh I was writing up a thread myself haha. Apr 09 04:47:33 I'm paranoid someone else will first and won't clarify things Apr 09 04:47:37 i will figure this out .. one of these days damnit Apr 09 04:47:50 phil_bw: that's why I was going to post--I wish that we could post and have it so we both could edit, etc Apr 09 04:47:57 yeah I agree Apr 09 04:48:08 phil_bw: only reason I was going to do it was so as news on X comes out I could update it--don't mean to cut you out at all Apr 09 04:48:11 bah Apr 09 04:48:13 it's your hard work, my video, dunno who should post it Apr 09 04:48:38 since you did the hard work, go ahead and post it Apr 09 04:48:55 I'll do a follow up post right after with some comments and anything you may have left out Apr 09 04:49:02 phil_bw: okay, but I'll be sure to give you credit for your work, especially the video. and feel free to follow up Apr 09 04:49:05 phil_bw: haha exactly Apr 09 04:49:29 rwhitby: found that changing directory from /var/home/root to /temp fixes issue Apr 09 04:49:41 problem solved Apr 09 04:50:09 ipk now works unikversally Apr 09 04:50:51 dtzWill, my biggest fear with this video has honestly been me getting any credit for the real work, I'll take all the credit for running apt-get install and spending hours screwing with fvwm, but none of it would be possible without your Xorg package Apr 09 04:51:23 just paste the forum link when it's done Apr 09 04:51:40 then I'll tweet that and the video Apr 09 04:51:49 sounds good Apr 09 04:51:50 phil_bw: that's very thoughtful of you, and yes I'll of course link you up. you think you'll be here for the next 20-30? Apr 09 04:52:00 I already have plans for a followup video of abiword :) Apr 09 04:52:05 phil_bw: I don't suppose sometime.. YES! :) Apr 09 04:52:28 dtzWill, maybe... I should be sleeping, it's almost 10pm here Apr 09 04:53:06 phil_bw: ..oh. Haha, I'm a student so I 10pm is nothing haha :) Apr 09 04:53:06 I need a better camera setup, some way of mounting it so I can use two hands on the pre, that vid was just taken on a couch cushion because it had the best lighting Apr 09 04:53:25 ah Apr 09 04:53:59 some days I feel old around you guys, other days I feel like the young one... Apr 09 04:55:12 phil_bw: :):). good group then I'd say Apr 09 04:55:59 hm, I'm watching the actual video on youtube, appears the quality dropped quite a bit Apr 09 04:56:15 phil_bw: it takes a while to process for high quality Apr 09 04:56:24 they put up a low q one first Apr 09 04:56:29 which isn't a totally bad thing, can't tell as much that I miss the menu a couple times Apr 09 04:56:38 I also used windows live movie maker Apr 09 04:56:46 do you have a link to You Tube video? Apr 09 04:56:46 which is about as dumbed down as it getes Apr 09 04:56:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JsulCV4nEQ Apr 09 04:56:58 caj2008, you're going to cringe Apr 09 04:57:00 Thanks Phil Apr 09 04:57:03 I'm running at 500mhz Apr 09 04:57:20 could have probably typed a 10 page essay on the thing at 800mhz Apr 09 04:57:31 dont worry I made lots of people cringe today...lol bad day Apr 09 04:57:38 ah Apr 09 04:57:45 ipk problem solved!!! Apr 09 04:58:56 I have a new one that will install/unistall eiter frequency (720 and 800) either as a single package as well...day turned out good after all Apr 09 04:59:31 caj2008, I could probably install your 800mhz patch and remake the video... bet everyone would overclock after that Apr 09 05:00:28 phil_bw: you got a twitter handle? Apr 09 05:00:40 rwhitby, I've never twittered in my life.... Apr 09 05:01:02 shall I use your precentral handle then? how would you like to be referred to in the tweet? Apr 09 05:01:13 I've considered it though... was thinking of getting one going when my WebOS software development gets off the ground... since that hasn't really happened I've failed to make one Apr 09 05:01:36 simply "phil from boraware" is fine, maybe reference my precentral boraware handle if you'd like Apr 09 05:01:53 "phil@boraware"? Apr 09 05:02:00 don't need to go that far Apr 09 05:02:05 get enough email as it is :P Apr 09 05:02:14 just saving chars Apr 09 05:02:18 true Apr 09 05:02:18 not making an email address Apr 09 05:02:26 ah, true Apr 09 05:02:28 missed that Apr 09 05:03:20 rwhitby, I'm making a twitter account now... figured why not Apr 09 05:03:26 ok Apr 09 05:03:41 name is phil_bw Apr 09 05:04:13 Wow I like that app Apr 09 05:04:24 I'll figure the rest of it out tomorrow Apr 09 05:04:29 caj2008, which app? Apr 09 05:04:42 office You Tube ...nice Apr 09 05:05:09 wasn't sure if you were refering to openoffice running in x on the pre, or x itself running on the pre Apr 09 05:05:19 open office Apr 09 05:05:37 I want it Apr 09 05:05:57 Nice!! Apr 09 05:06:23 Thanks for sharing that with me...exciting stuff Apr 09 05:06:25 caj2008, I'm sure you're technically savvy enough to set it up Apr 09 05:06:40 I will, aawesome!!!!!! Apr 09 05:06:57 who knows, maybe dtzWill and I will one day collaborate on a wiki for the technical users (until we can package it up for everyone else) Apr 09 05:07:05 Today turned out OK. Apr 09 05:07:09 phil_bw: I would love that. :) Apr 09 05:07:15 actually it is tommorrow here Apr 09 05:07:23 phil_bw: I'm presently debating how much of a HOWTO I should include Apr 09 05:07:58 Good night everyone! ttyl Apr 09 05:08:05 caj2008: 'night :) Apr 09 05:08:32 dtzWill, I see linking to the debian chroot wiki page for one, maybe tweaking a few things on that page to clarify what is needed if you plan on running X Apr 09 05:12:12 dtzWill: do you want to post the article, and then continue editing it so you can give me the link for the tweet? Apr 09 05:13:54 * phil_bw has a feeling this is going to be a long precentral post... Apr 09 05:13:57 rwhitby: oh okay. sorry this is taking so long I'm not good at writing these things haha Apr 09 05:14:48 nothin like the power of a German, and Aussie, and an American all working together Apr 09 05:15:03 phil_bw: :D go go diversity...or something Apr 09 05:15:19 and my thought is, if even one person watches this video, realizes the *true* potential of the Pre, and decides to buy one, then mission accomplished Apr 09 05:15:37 dtzWill: just post a short post, then expand it after Apr 09 05:20:58 grumble p|c is being slow. hope I didn't hit their reboot time again Apr 09 05:21:10 haha Apr 09 05:21:16 wonder where they are located Apr 09 05:22:09 dtzWill: it is coming up close to that time, yes. Apr 09 05:22:23 rwhitby: I think it _is_ that time. sorry I suck at posting :( Apr 09 05:22:25 looks to be florida, it's 1:22 am there Apr 09 05:23:00 dtzWill, did you quickly copy the text you just entered incase it is lost? Apr 09 05:23:18 phil_bw: yep, and it's in my browser history as well, so all is well, just have to wait until the forums are back up. Apr 09 05:23:25 yeah, that's happened to me before Apr 09 05:24:14 guess there isn't really a good time to do a reboot, being a global community and all Apr 09 05:25:43 * phil_bw is going to be tired tomorrow Apr 09 05:25:56 * dtzWill yells at forum to reboot faster Apr 09 05:26:11 * dtzWill presses the turbo button Apr 09 05:26:17 haha Apr 09 05:26:27 watch points in gdb cause the UI to become responsive .. btw Apr 09 05:26:46 bpadalino: you mean unresponsive right? :) Apr 09 05:26:52 yes i do Apr 09 05:26:54 sorry Apr 09 05:26:58 :( Apr 09 05:27:14 oh look, it's time for windows updates on my computer Apr 09 05:27:21 forums up Apr 09 05:30:48 so uh, how's the weather down there in Australia...? Apr 09 05:33:26 phil_bw: actually, it's rainy today in Adelaide. But I'm going on holidays on Monday to the Gold Coast, so hopefully it will be fine there. Apr 09 05:33:42 ah nice Apr 09 05:34:11 it's generally pretty wet and miserable here in Oregon, USA... got a semi decent day today though Apr 09 05:35:30 80F here today...no rain (finally) in site. Apr 09 05:35:30 er sight. Apr 09 05:35:44 dtzWill: you around ? Apr 09 05:36:17 bpadalino: yep, sorry trying to write something up. :) Apr 09 05:36:24 dtzWill: no problem - check it out: http://pastie.textmate.org/private/gf736ofk0nzkwhxlfwpukw Apr 09 05:36:46 that Object_Deallocate comes after you click into the menu Apr 09 05:36:57 when you look at the Deallocate method, we never re-set the pointer to null .. Apr 09 05:37:25 i also have break on Object_Allocate, which apparently is not called before NPP_SetWindow Apr 09 05:37:33 so we're futzing around with a dealloc'd object Apr 09 05:37:53 check here: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=plugins/termplugin.git;a=blob;f=termplugin.cpp;h=575f5092b63006a12843622268e3043d4fcd38e1;hb=02ef012035c7fe2f439e66c5f29f2cb826c35bc4#l679 Apr 09 05:38:02 oh ffs still timing out on me x.x damn p|c forums haha Apr 09 05:38:17 sorry guys! :( Apr 09 05:38:20 we delete npobj, but never make it null again Apr 09 05:38:25 there it goes again Apr 09 05:38:34 your post so long it keeps crashing their server dtzWill? Apr 09 05:38:52 phil_bw: probably :( Apr 09 05:39:00 ah, they're back Apr 09 05:39:09 * dtzWill previews his post........ Apr 09 05:39:18 and going sloe again Apr 09 05:39:24 haha grumble Apr 09 05:39:25 sloe with an e even... Apr 09 05:39:37 i am going to go to bed, but i have a feeling if you nullify that pointer after you delete it .. Apr 09 05:39:39 the crash will go away Apr 09 05:40:11 and a 504 Apr 09 05:40:32 night Apr 09 05:40:40 'night dude Apr 09 05:40:44 bpadalino: 'night :). good find, I'll look more into it when I get a chance Apr 09 05:40:51 bpadalino: maybe try your theory :). Apr 09 05:41:12 and it's back... don't breathe on it Apr 09 05:42:37 and there's your post Apr 09 05:42:46 I just clicked new posts to occupy my time Apr 09 05:43:09 oh ffs it posted? hahaha Apr 09 05:43:33 indeed, apparently I am the only view Apr 09 05:44:45 shall i wait for you to update something before I do a follow up post? Apr 09 05:44:52 rwhitby: http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=2370693#post2370693 I suppose Apr 09 05:45:11 or :http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/240926-x-server-pre.html Apr 09 05:45:16 phil_bw: um, I think you can go ahead. if you think it should go in the first post, or I said something stupid, let me know. Apr 09 05:45:17 er http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/240926-x-server-pre.html Apr 09 05:45:20 phil_bw: i like your url better Apr 09 05:45:34 http://bit.ly/x-server-pre Apr 09 05:45:36 dtzWill, yeah me too Apr 09 05:45:57 and rod lops it off even more... Apr 09 05:46:25 http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/11866076516 Apr 09 05:47:09 doh, comma fail Apr 09 05:47:44 rwhitby: also my handle is wdtz, not dtzWill. Apr 09 05:47:49 http://twitter.com/dtzWill lol Apr 09 05:48:44 http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/11866158895 Apr 09 05:55:32 rwhitby: looks good, and ty :) Apr 09 05:56:48 phil_bw: sorry for keeping you up, and thanks for your work. posting your followup? and/or anything you want me to change? Apr 09 05:57:00 I'm just about to click post Apr 09 05:57:56 looks like I'm post #3, seems "Joseph" beat me to #2 Apr 09 05:59:24 phil_bw: good post, thanks for the brief tutorial.. it's probably the right amount of information at this point. Apr 09 05:59:43 yeah, a linux native will read and and go "oh, ok" Apr 09 05:59:56 anyone else will probably stop at "chroot" Apr 09 06:00:30 btw, I have officially named my fvwm theme... Apr 09 06:00:38 I'm going to call it F3 Apr 09 06:00:47 for "Fat Finger Friendly" Apr 09 06:01:08 because moving those tiny scroll bars around is really a nightmare Apr 09 06:01:13 phil_bw: love it haha Apr 09 06:01:40 most people will probably just assume "fvwm 3" or somethin Apr 09 06:02:04 59 clicks already Apr 09 06:02:06 will probably package it as "fvwm-pre" but code name will be F3 Apr 09 06:02:09 wow Apr 09 06:02:24 haha maybe I should really move those images to the webosinternals wiki......haha Apr 09 06:02:25 wanna take bets on how long it takes to make it to the front page? Apr 09 06:02:27 (the other advantage of using a bit.ly link) Apr 09 06:02:34 i get my hosting for free from a friend.. don't want to abuse it xD Apr 09 06:02:44 dtzWill: it may be a good idea Apr 09 06:02:57 we get a lot of traffic Apr 09 06:02:58 if I wasn't going to bed I'd just move them to the boraware server Apr 09 06:03:16 I rarely use a sliver of my bandwidth per month Apr 09 06:03:39 phil_bw: me either, but like I said I get it for free piggybacking his hosting business' excess bandwidth :) Apr 09 06:03:46 mostly comes from my uncles site.... man hasn't learned how to down size his images... all sorts of high res subarus with lift kits Apr 09 06:04:06 phil_bw: but my understanding is webos-internals has LOTS of bandwidth being part of a bigger collection of projects Apr 09 06:04:22 yeah, they'd need it Apr 09 06:05:10 * phil_bw pats my pre on the head Apr 09 06:05:14 you're a start little buddy Apr 09 06:05:15 er Apr 09 06:05:17 star* Apr 09 06:05:45 phil_bw, whats your commmercial project Apr 09 06:06:23 it's kind of underwraps at the moment Apr 09 06:06:29 namely since no one else has written one yet Apr 09 06:06:30 bonerkill Apr 09 06:06:47 it's no where near as exciting as an X server though Apr 09 06:07:05 my app is the notepad to openoffice (not literally of course) Apr 09 06:07:32 http://bit.ly/info/x-server-pre if you want to watch people clicking through Apr 09 06:08:13 and it's 11pm here on the west coast in the US Apr 09 06:08:16 dtzWill: yeah, our hosting at OSUOSL basically gives us unlimited bandwidth Apr 09 06:08:26 OSUOSL... I love it Apr 09 06:08:34 they're physically located about an hour or two from here Apr 09 06:08:55 Oregon State University, go Beavers! Apr 09 06:09:23 lol timeout on forums again x.x Apr 09 06:09:26 ironically m y OSU hat was almost in the video, I moved it though Apr 09 06:09:41 all this overwhelming new traffic :P Apr 09 06:10:59 ugh Apr 09 06:11:05 why do random apps repopulate in the app catalog O_o Apr 09 06:11:52 ok, it's 11pm, I'm going to bed Apr 09 06:12:18 phil_bw: 'night! Apr 09 06:12:20 dtzWill, rwhitby, good work guys, I'll catch up with you when you're about to go to sleep :P Apr 09 06:12:35 phil_bw: ciao Apr 09 06:12:49 * phil_bw very sleepily wanders off Apr 09 06:13:16 rwhitby: ty for the click-through info link :) Apr 09 06:15:41 ok, so I clicked the youtube link on your twitter post rod Apr 09 06:15:50 http://youtube.com/webosinternal Apr 09 06:15:58 missed a very critical "s" Apr 09 06:17:08 ok, now I'm leaving Apr 09 06:17:26 http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/240926-x-server-pre.html#post2370735 haha Apr 09 06:21:02 well...thats one way to use your x-server...remote X stuff. Apr 09 06:21:19 there you go - if you build it, they will come. Apr 09 06:21:49 ka6sox: absolutely a good use for it :). it's how I tested the bugger before I had all the client stuff up :) Apr 09 06:22:10 * dtzWill wonders @ "uiucryan"'s nick--can't help but see 'uiuc' in it, the univ I attend... :) Apr 09 06:22:47 University of Illinois- Urbana-Champaign? Apr 09 06:22:54 ka6sox: yeppers Apr 09 08:25:57 It seems that the latest overclocking ipkg files from caj2008's PreCentral threads are a shell script containing a self-extracting appended binary tarball, wrapped up in an ipkg file in the java service directory for some reason. Apr 09 08:38:26 where does LunaSysMgr keep its logs? Apr 09 08:38:45 it keeps crashing on me Apr 09 08:39:02 and I didn't do anything Apr 09 08:39:29 (yeah I know, if my users tell me that I wouldn't believe 'em either) Apr 09 08:40:55 ok, I lack coffe it's there in /var/log Apr 09 08:54:49 is there a 'orange-sym-' key combo to restart lunasysmgr? Apr 09 08:57:01 any one have pre plus Apr 09 08:57:40 ? Apr 09 09:11:10 probably Apr 09 09:11:15 but you didnt stick around... Apr 09 09:11:38 he was on his itouch Apr 09 09:11:53 prob opened up something else Apr 09 09:12:28 :P Apr 09 09:15:18 heh, not for long Apr 09 10:37:46 hi Apr 09 10:37:57 ahm... Apr 09 10:38:12 why isn't preware in the app-catalog? Apr 09 10:38:30 cause it uses unofficial APIs Apr 09 10:38:40 aha Apr 09 10:39:17 kk Apr 09 10:43:07 karotte_exe: preware does not comply with the content requirements, since it is able to install an application which is not in the app catalog Apr 09 10:43:21 karotte_exe: thereby breaking all security in the app catalog if it was allowed Apr 09 10:43:33 aha... Apr 09 10:43:42 now i understand Apr 09 10:43:49 it was just a idear Apr 09 10:43:55 please go and write it on the Preware wiki page for the next person to read Apr 09 10:44:17 because its difficult for noobs to install preware Apr 09 10:44:19 hi guys. got a brand new palm pre. is updating from 1.2 to 1.4.1 at the moment. for 60 minutes it shows only the palm logo. is this normal? Apr 09 10:44:35 asyn: 60 minutes is a bit excessive Apr 09 10:44:41 i think not Apr 09 10:44:45 what was it doing immediately before that Apr 09 10:45:01 it shows an install screen with "Do not remove the battery" Apr 09 10:45:06 showed* Apr 09 10:45:07 try to update your palm with the webos doctor... Apr 09 10:45:18 asyn: do you have any data on it that you wish to keep? Apr 09 10:45:22 no Apr 09 10:45:25 its brand new Apr 09 10:45:34 asyn: go to www.palm.com/rom and follow the instructions Apr 09 10:45:51 you can install the latest OS directly using a host computer Apr 09 10:46:01 (via the USB connection) Apr 09 10:46:02 @rwhitby: thank you Apr 09 10:46:16 asyn: once you've done that, go to http://install.preware.org/ Apr 09 10:46:51 k thanks Apr 09 10:47:23 i'm taking out the battery now Apr 09 11:16:51 who invented mornings, and could someone please take them back? Apr 09 11:23:09 lol Apr 09 11:23:40 So in order to ssh/SFTP into the pre, i need to create a user for myself on the pre, correct? Apr 09 11:23:49 what time is it be where you are? Apr 09 11:24:15 luwangui: you could use the root user Apr 09 11:24:24 luwangui: but you probably shouldn't Apr 09 11:24:40 hmm i'm just trying to install my hello world app Apr 09 11:25:00 is it an ipkg already? Apr 09 11:25:04 or just a binary Apr 09 11:25:37 binary Apr 09 11:26:23 luwangui: I just use root all the time, the only access is through ssh keys Apr 09 11:26:34 are you using dropbear or openssh? Apr 09 11:26:38 openssh Apr 09 11:26:40 openssh Apr 09 11:26:44 meh Apr 09 11:26:47 dropbear :) Apr 09 11:26:53 sorry... it's morning. Apr 09 11:27:04 dropbear seemed to be easier for setting up sftp Apr 09 11:27:09 i mean openssh Apr 09 11:27:11 lol Apr 09 11:27:19 good to know it's not just me ;-) Apr 09 11:28:01 hehe Apr 09 11:30:58 luwangui: so what's the status? you cann ssh into the device but not use sftp? Apr 09 11:31:04 neither Apr 09 11:31:06 s/cann/can/ Apr 09 11:31:06 asmw meant: luwangui: so what's the status? you can ssh into the device but not use sftp? Apr 09 11:31:17 uh, nice Apr 09 11:31:22 yeah Apr 09 11:31:25 i think i need some keys Apr 09 11:31:29 i suppose Apr 09 11:31:29 l,ol Apr 09 11:31:53 luwangui: are you on windows or *nix? Apr 09 11:31:55 as far as i can understand, i need to set up some sort of authentication Apr 09 11:31:58 windows Apr 09 11:32:02 meh Apr 09 11:32:09 get a rela operating system first :) Apr 09 11:32:10 yah Apr 09 11:32:17 s/rela/real Apr 09 11:32:28 lol Apr 09 11:32:43 you can make the keys with putty-keygen i guess Apr 09 11:32:52 i guess i'm too lasy to switch to ubuntu Apr 09 11:33:06 ok putty i have Apr 09 11:33:10 luwangui: you might want to look at installing cygwin, that has openssh Apr 09 11:33:22 i believe i have cygwin Apr 09 11:33:44 poblem silved Apr 09 11:33:47 er Apr 09 11:33:50 or something. Apr 09 11:33:55 lol Apr 09 11:34:16 no idea how to use it tho, it was required for a programming class i had Apr 09 11:34:43 IIRC there's a giu interface and you just go through and check off openssh and then click install Apr 09 11:34:51 jeez Apr 09 11:34:55 :) Apr 09 11:35:02 the apllication:openssh page in the webos-internals wiki covers all of this i think Apr 09 11:35:08 I'll stop typnng and just nang my head on the keyboard, that'll get better results Apr 09 11:35:30 sbromwich: are you typing with your elbows perhaps? Apr 09 11:35:31 :p Apr 09 11:35:51 ok, i need coffee again Apr 09 11:35:55 it's morning, I haven't fnished my coffee, and my wakeup pills have yet to kick in Apr 09 11:36:06 you got wakeup pills? Apr 09 11:36:12 lucky b*stard Apr 09 11:36:15 yeah Apr 09 11:36:20 yes, i found instructions for generating the keys Apr 09 11:36:33 they have a wonderful side effect of squirting adrenaline through me every 15 minutes or so Apr 09 11:36:34 thanks asmw Apr 09 11:36:43 no problem Apr 09 11:36:59 that sounds completely healthy sbromwich Apr 09 11:37:01 time-release happy pills Apr 09 11:37:09 asmw: you too could have them, all it takes is having a viral infection for a year and having most of your guts ripped apart ;-) Apr 09 11:37:22 i never liked my guts anyway... Apr 09 11:37:45 you'll like them less covered with ulcers, believe me Apr 09 11:37:45 ...but the viral part, nah kepp 'em Apr 09 11:37:57 s/kepp/keep/ Apr 09 11:37:57 asmw meant: ...but the viral part, nah keep 'em Apr 09 11:38:53 i need to write an irssi plugin which delays sending for 2 seconds an if i input 's/', cancels and let's me regex what i just typed Apr 09 11:39:16 I hope they kick in soon, I really should make it outside my front door at least *once* this week... Apr 09 11:39:48 not seen sunlight in a week? a pillar of geekdom you are! Apr 09 11:39:50 :) Apr 09 11:39:56 lol Apr 09 11:40:09 or at least get some sunshine pills Apr 09 11:40:11 ! Apr 09 11:40:43 kidding aside, i hope you get better. Apr 09 11:42:26 well, that's the downside of being able to work from home, I quite often don't get out that much Apr 09 11:42:40 I need to go see my boss to warn her she's going to get a complaint about me Apr 09 11:43:37 some of the project manglers are a bit "let me just tell you what I need now" and don't take well to my refusing to do anything without requirements docs Apr 09 11:45:10 sbromwich: refusing the suit?!? Apr 09 11:45:15 aaaanyway that's irrelevant, my latest alpha kernel made it through the night Apr 09 11:45:21 heh Apr 09 11:45:23 no suits Apr 09 11:45:48 what new tricks did you teach the pony? Apr 09 11:45:58 I just say "no, please follow documented CDHA procedure and document your requirements" Apr 09 11:46:07 lol Apr 09 11:46:15 sbromwich: I have one of those... Apr 09 11:46:25 and my boss usually has no problem with that Apr 09 11:46:35 Lumiere: they're irritating, eh? Apr 09 11:46:44 sbromwich: biggest pain in my ass in the organization Apr 09 11:47:13 doesn't help that his title starts with C and ends with O Apr 09 11:47:33 I had one PM yesterday send me a "document" where his disk space requirements were completely blank, and then when I said I had configured his system per his request complained that he had no disk space. Apr 09 11:47:51 heh Apr 09 11:47:57 someone is taking a page from BOFH land Apr 09 11:48:01 indeed, BOFH style Apr 09 11:48:25 is that a verb too? bofhing? Apr 09 11:48:29 mmmm Apr 09 11:48:34 i bofhed him something good Apr 09 11:48:38 you'd have to ask the BOFH people Apr 09 11:48:44 stop bofhering me! Apr 09 11:49:30 I make sure people get *exactly* what they ask for, and where relevant it's documented in my wiki, and all changes are logged in the change management app Apr 09 11:50:11 no-one likes doing change management requests so I find that's a great way to cut down on my workload... "If you didn't submit a work order and change request then there is no work to be done", etc Apr 09 11:50:41 lol Apr 09 11:51:18 sbromwich: when I came on board Apr 09 11:51:32 my org was doing development via ticketing system <_< Apr 09 11:51:36 no requirements at all Apr 09 11:51:36 oh, and the project managers aren't too keen on my insistence that they come up with a project plan with assigned responsibilities Apr 09 11:51:40 ouch Apr 09 11:51:56 so I'd love to require a change management form Apr 09 11:51:58 for now Apr 09 11:52:10 we are using SDE which is fine but the implementation done by our programmers sucks Apr 09 11:52:11 I'm just happy to be seeing requirements documents Apr 09 11:52:28 so I'm doing an RT install as proof of concept so my boss can decide whether to change Apr 09 11:52:37 RT is so nice Apr 09 11:52:41 *nod* Apr 09 11:53:04 I had set it up for drugstore.com for their customer service and it ran for *years* without a problem Apr 09 11:53:06 especially since you can use it to track more then just software bugs :) Apr 09 11:53:40 the only reason they replaced it was because some mandate for M$ sw came down Apr 09 11:54:01 * Lumiere slams head into desk repeatedly Apr 09 11:54:03 guess who owns a lot of drugstore.com stock? Apr 09 11:54:21 name starts with "B" and ends with "ill Gates" if you need a hint. Apr 09 11:54:34 lol Apr 09 11:55:20 I still see the IT manager for CS every now and then, and he's always talking about "the good old days when things didn't crash" Apr 09 11:55:51 lol Apr 09 11:56:32 one of these days large companies and the government will figure out that paying money does not mean better product Apr 09 11:57:19 they're starting to click in at my DHA since I started implemented a "real" environment Apr 09 11:57:27 unfortunately we're stuck on the medical side Apr 09 11:58:00 I have to say, if people knew how crappy the med software industry is, they wouldn't be trusting their lives to this stuff Apr 09 11:58:13 I did some work for medsphere Apr 09 11:58:24 god it's all pretty crappy Apr 09 11:58:40 vista was semi-ok... but the setup on that software still scares me Apr 09 11:58:52 my junior was on call a few weeks back and got a call from a surgeon who had someone on the table sliced open and the windows portal sw that showed him where the [whatever] was to remove horked Apr 09 11:59:07 surgeon said the patient had 30 minutes before he'd die Apr 09 11:59:09 oh god Apr 09 11:59:19 how's that for a bit of pressure? ;-) Apr 09 11:59:30 sucky Apr 09 11:59:37 brings new meaning to SLA :) Apr 09 11:59:52 yeah, couldn't reboot the client since that was running the anaesth feed for the patient Apr 09 12:00:23 wait Apr 09 12:00:26 dunno quite what he did in the end but got it working... whatever the equivalent of kill -9 is in the windows world Apr 09 12:00:30 windows running anathesia? Apr 09 12:00:34 ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Apr 09 12:00:35 mmm Apr 09 12:00:37 worried yet? Apr 09 12:00:43 my life in gates hands Apr 09 12:00:46 *nod* Apr 09 12:01:22 there was an ask slashdot thread a few years ago about writing med software and cerner and mckesson (the 2 main vendors) got absolutely slammed for their incompetence Apr 09 12:01:35 gaaaah, my lunasysmgr keeps dying Apr 09 12:01:38 my randomart key image looks like a penis! Apr 09 12:01:47 sorry, just thought i'd share Apr 09 12:02:03 ge is the only one I've seen that has their shit together... I'd trust their software (they run our pharmacy end) but noone else Apr 09 12:02:06 heh Apr 09 12:02:18 there was a podcast from sflc covering medical devices and open source... Apr 09 12:02:39 sbromwich: how about the va's stuff Apr 09 12:02:53 that seemed old but half decent when I saw it Apr 09 12:02:53 meditech? Apr 09 12:03:07 VISTA was what it was called 4-5 years ago Apr 09 12:03:23 don't think I've seen that Apr 09 12:03:32 and if it's windows that's not on my side of the house Apr 09 12:03:38 it was open source Apr 09 12:03:55 and ran on unix or windows Apr 09 12:04:13 it's mildly amusing to go into the DC... there's 8 rows of windows racks, then I have 4 racks of unix boxes that run most of the hospital. Apr 09 12:05:05 well, from what I can tell a lot of the purchasing decisions involve (and I suspect this is just a scurrilous rumour) things like trips to florida and a bj in a hottub while the deal is signed Apr 09 12:07:10 sftp psapp@sfts1.gov.ns.ca Apr 09 12:07:22 well that worked well, let me try the right window Apr 09 12:07:23 *sigh* Apr 09 12:08:28 I am so not worried Apr 09 12:08:39 I bet my life theres a password protected key Apr 09 12:08:43 on that account Apr 09 12:08:55 not to mention you probably have to be behind a firewall to see it :) Apr 09 12:09:12 key only Apr 09 12:09:13 yeah Apr 09 12:10:01 this was supposed to be ready for the SAP go-live april 1 Apr 09 12:10:19 unfortunately I can't do any development until my key is auth'd which happened.... about 15 minutes ago. Apr 09 12:10:22 Apr 09 12:12:01 time for a shower... Apr 09 12:16:53 argh Apr 09 12:16:59 connection refused Apr 09 12:17:15 with openssh? Apr 09 12:18:12 yeah and putty Apr 09 12:18:28 sec trying one more time Apr 09 12:19:16 novaterm in and do lsof -NI TCP | grep LISTEN Apr 09 12:19:22 see if the ssh daemon is actually running Apr 09 12:19:44 ISTR it didn't get started after install, only after reboot, BICBW Apr 09 12:19:44 hmm still no dice Apr 09 12:19:47 trying novaterm Apr 09 12:20:00 i restarted plenty of time since Apr 09 12:20:12 * sbromwich continues his celebration of the spring Festival of Cheap Chocolate Apr 09 12:20:58 let me have a shufti at mine to double check Apr 09 12:21:51 luwangui: ps ax | grep -i ssh shows the openssh server? Apr 09 12:22:19 /etc/event.d/mobi.optware.openssh is what should be starting it on reboot Apr 09 12:22:43 palm-webos-device event.d # uptime Apr 09 12:22:44 09:22:34 up 12:40, 0 users, load average: 19.19, 36.97, 42.60 Apr 09 12:22:44 asmw: yes Apr 09 12:22:56 guess that explains why my batteries drained 25% in 2 hours Apr 09 12:23:00 lol Apr 09 12:23:05 iptables -L -n shows the port 22 is open? Apr 09 12:23:29 uff wall of text Apr 09 12:23:38 use the lsof command to check something's actually listening Apr 09 12:23:42 or telnet localhost 22 Apr 09 12:23:57 it said not found Apr 09 12:23:58 to slof Apr 09 12:24:01 lsof* Apr 09 12:24:02 lsof Apr 09 12:24:17 not found Apr 09 12:24:19 oh, sorry, that's one of the things I install by default Apr 09 12:24:25 ipkg-opt install lsof first then Apr 09 12:24:38 iptables -L -n | grep dpt:22 Apr 09 12:25:01 netstat -anp | grep ssh Apr 09 12:25:32 ls -l ~/.ssh/, permissions are importannt Apr 09 12:25:52 BTW, the reason we recommend openssh over dropbear is that dropbear has this silly idea that root needs a password, even when you've turned off password authentication and are using ssh keys for everything. Apr 09 12:26:08 rwhitby: i know, tripped me up Apr 09 12:26:09 i can imagine Apr 09 12:26:28 i used to use dropbear on openwrt a lot... Apr 09 12:26:33 unfortunately, on webOS devices, root doesn't have a password, and if you set one, you can be sure that the next OTA update will remove it again for you, thereby locking you out of ssh access if you are using dropbear. Apr 09 12:26:40 err what am i setting permissions on? Apr 09 12:27:22 every other embedded device in my house (and there are a few, since I run nslu2-linux.org and am also an openwrt.org developer) runs dropbear. but not the Pres. Apr 09 12:27:38 OTA updates wipe the root password? Apr 09 12:27:40 right now you're checking if the port is even open luwangui :-) Apr 09 12:27:42 *sigh* Apr 09 12:27:47 should've thought of that Apr 09 12:27:55 yeah i was trying to read the ports Apr 09 12:28:06 but i'm not sure what is what Apr 09 12:28:11 netstat -anp | grep ssh should work off a base system Apr 09 12:28:22 yeah its working Apr 09 12:28:26 but i don't know what i'm looking for Apr 09 12:28:36 pastebin the output and post the url here Apr 09 12:28:40 i needed netstat -anp | grep :22 Apr 09 12:28:53 it doesn't list service names on my pre Apr 09 12:29:05 asmw: that doesn't do anything Apr 09 12:29:21 one sec Apr 09 12:29:21 does netstat -anp | grep ssh do anything? Apr 09 12:29:23 luwangui: but the | grep ssh did? Apr 09 12:29:35 this sounds... interestingly weird Apr 09 12:29:40 iptables did Apr 09 12:30:25 paste your output in the pastebin (see irc topic) Apr 09 12:30:30 oh christ I'm a numpty sometimes, iptables -L just showed me why disabling half the iptables modules made the kernel hork Apr 09 12:31:15 btw. is there anything besides uploadd which 'phones home' on my pre? Apr 09 12:31:40 don't think so Apr 09 12:31:50 asmw: meta-doctor has a disable uploadd option Apr 09 12:31:56 disabling syslogs gives a nice speed boost if you don't need them Apr 09 12:32:06 rwhitby: since when does the OTA wipe root passwords Apr 09 12:32:19 it seems to stop most things. of course if you run the app catalog or update app then it phones home. Apr 09 12:32:22 I think palm might be deeply confused by the reports from my device ;-) Apr 09 12:32:22 i know, I have a doctored image but I already have data on the phone... Apr 09 12:32:43 Then again Apr 09 12:32:49 PuffTheMagic: every time there is a version change to the base-files openembedded package which contains /etc/passwd, that's since when Apr 09 12:33:00 it's friday and i'm a nerd... Apr 09 12:33:13 rwhitby: right so not necessarily every update Apr 09 12:33:29 PuffTheMagic: it's been better than even odds up till now Apr 09 12:33:31 i know its survived updates a few times Apr 09 12:34:08 Does the requirement make any sense? Apr 09 12:34:15 i can't seem to copy or paste anything from novaterm Apr 09 12:34:18 asmw: what requirement? Apr 09 12:34:19 but i took a ss Apr 09 12:34:21 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/802998/iptables.jpg Apr 09 12:34:30 I mean requireing a password if key-only auth is used Apr 09 12:34:39 asmw: yeah its still required Apr 09 12:34:47 asmw: in my opinion it does not Apr 09 12:35:03 rwhitby: what did u recommend i missed that Apr 09 12:35:08 PuffTheMagic: i know it's _needed_ i want to know if it's usefull for something i cannot yet see Apr 09 12:35:28 luwangui: can you do the same with netstat -anp | grep LISTEN for me? Apr 09 12:35:39 asmw: its generally a good thing to know your systems root password Apr 09 12:35:41 PuffTheMagic: using openssh rather than dropbear if you're going keys-only on a Pre Apr 09 12:35:47 oh Apr 09 12:35:53 thats only a dropbear issue? Apr 09 12:35:55 didnt realize Apr 09 12:35:57 tep Apr 09 12:35:59 yep Apr 09 12:36:05 time for a dropbear patch Apr 09 12:36:06 :D Apr 09 12:36:11 openssh has survived every OTA so far Apr 09 12:36:18 well volunteered, PuffTheMagic ;-) Apr 09 12:36:24 luwangui: your port 22 seems to be open Apr 09 12:36:29 PuffTheMagic: that's what a certain Debian developer said about openssh .... Apr 09 12:36:38 ok thanks asmw Apr 09 12:36:42 asmw: that's just showing it will accept packets on port 22 Apr 09 12:36:52 i thought it would, since i'm getting an acces denied error Apr 09 12:36:54 sbromwich: i know Apr 09 12:36:57 the trick now is to see if anything is actually listening ;-) Apr 09 12:37:02 luwangui: now the netstat -anp output Apr 09 12:37:04 i'm guessing something's wrong with my key :/ Apr 09 12:37:14 zomg Apr 09 12:37:15 ah, where is openssh loggin? Apr 09 12:37:18 my suspicion is sshd isn't getting started for some reason Apr 09 12:37:32 pages upon pages of output lol Apr 09 12:37:47 yeah, do netstat -anp | grep LISTEN Apr 09 12:37:55 that should filter out most of the junk Apr 09 12:38:02 why Apr 09 12:38:07 ps -A | grep sshd Apr 09 12:38:13 will show u if its running Apr 09 12:38:38 won't show what port and interface it's listening on Apr 09 12:38:51 that dont matter Apr 09 12:38:52 haven't got as far as ps yet Apr 09 12:39:06 * sbromwich is applying the scientific method with occam's razor Apr 09 12:39:14 it's exclusion, if it's _not_ running, there's your problem :) Apr 09 12:39:40 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/802998/netstat.jpg Apr 09 12:40:17 nothing listening on port 22 Apr 09 12:40:24 luwangui: no ssh server Apr 09 12:40:25 so all you guys exclusively run command line linux all day? :p Apr 09 12:40:37 luwangui: mostly Apr 09 12:40:46 hehe i can hardly remember a handful of commands Apr 09 12:40:48 luwangui: no one does that Apr 09 12:40:52 luwangui: run this and see what happens: Apr 09 12:40:57 /opt/sbin/sshd -D -p 22 -o "PasswordAuthentication no" -o "PermitRootLogin without-password" Apr 09 12:41:21 you guys are pretty impressive :) Apr 09 12:41:47 luwangui: this is basics for a linux user Apr 09 12:42:11 and they say linux is hard Apr 09 12:42:12 pff Apr 09 12:42:25 :p Apr 09 12:42:27 luwangui: sorta like removing malware is something windows people do all the time Apr 09 12:42:33 windows is hardware Apr 09 12:42:33 command line is what linux people do Apr 09 12:42:33 haha true Apr 09 12:42:39 to make windows users feel better Apr 09 12:42:40 PuffTheMagic you took the words right out of my mouth Apr 09 12:42:46 luwangui: remebering where the windows event logs are is much harder than remebering /var/log Apr 09 12:43:20 heh yeah you might be right, i don't administrate many windows pc's tho Apr 09 12:43:25 just my media center :p Apr 09 12:43:44 luwangui: I've been using linux exclusively for 10 years now... I use the CLI oftent, but is moslly for moving/copying files or editing a simple text file Apr 09 12:43:52 luwangui: any other time I am normal gui apps like u Apr 09 12:44:01 just some things are quicker from cli Apr 09 12:44:12 yeah Apr 09 12:44:23 like photo editing Apr 09 12:44:24 :p Apr 09 12:44:31 X is just a way to get lots of xterms running Apr 09 12:44:32 PuffTheMagic: what gui apps do you prefer over cli apps? this is genuine interest Apr 09 12:44:41 sbromwich: exactly Apr 09 12:44:53 sbromwich:tried the voodoo Apr 09 12:44:59 now what lol Apr 09 12:45:01 although *cough* some of us have issues getting focus on the right xterm. Apr 09 12:45:19 luwangui: did you get an error message at all? Apr 09 12:45:26 i might as well have bricked my phone, i have no idea what i'm doing xD Apr 09 12:45:30 no i don't think so Apr 09 12:45:37 excellent, see if you can ssh in now Apr 09 12:45:39 asmw: I use guis for anything there is a good one for, web, IRC, cd burnings, latex editor, pdf views, gimp for photo editing.... Apr 09 12:45:41 "extra argument passwordauthentication no" Apr 09 12:45:49 asmw: only cli tool i use often is R for my stats Apr 09 12:45:59 and git Apr 09 12:46:00 and ssh Apr 09 12:46:06 i use cli Apr 09 12:46:46 "Connection Refused" :/ Apr 09 12:47:10 PuffTheMagic: ok, so we're just diffrent, image viewing, browsing, pdf, these _require_ a gui (though i have dumped pdfs as text before) but chatting, reading news and burning cd's that i do on the cli Apr 09 12:47:15 luwangui: are your eventd files configured? Apr 09 12:47:45 asmw: thats crazy, this is 21st century Apr 09 12:47:48 use your graphics card Apr 09 12:47:56 luwangui: do netstat -anp | grep LISTEN again for me? Apr 09 12:48:10 nothing l33t about doing things the hardway on purpose ;) Apr 09 12:48:21 PuffTheMagic: Hell yeah, without acceleration all those xterms would lag like hell :) Apr 09 12:48:32 asmw: naaa Apr 09 12:48:37 unless u are on a 386 Apr 09 12:48:41 16Mhz cpu Apr 09 12:48:58 sbromwich: did it Apr 09 12:49:00 PuffTheMagic: I _really_ like my CLI programs Apr 09 12:49:04 don't see ssh Apr 09 12:49:21 luwangui: are your event.d files setup? Apr 09 12:49:33 try this: grep ssh /var/log/messages Apr 09 12:49:39 see if it's reporting any errors Apr 09 12:49:51 luwangui: i would recommend just restarting your phone Apr 09 12:50:00 if it works you'll get something like this: Apr 09 12:50:01 2010-04-02T21:24:15.850280Z [24] palm-webos-device auth.info sshd[1384]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22. Apr 09 12:50:11 PuffTheMagic he's already done that repeatedly Apr 09 12:50:26 then his event.d files are not right Apr 09 12:50:30 how do wou run sshd in the foreground? Apr 09 12:50:36 sshd -dD? Apr 09 12:50:41 and with debug output Apr 09 12:50:48 good call, asmq Apr 09 12:50:56 ^q^w Apr 09 12:51:09 you lost me Apr 09 12:51:10 lol Apr 09 12:51:20 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/802998/netstat.jpg Apr 09 12:51:28 i'm just gonna try a restart for the sake of it Apr 09 12:51:38 luwangui: are u doing dropbear or openssh? Apr 09 12:51:40 but i installed openssh days ago, Apr 09 12:51:44 luwangui: spoken like a true windows user ;) Apr 09 12:51:51 luwangui: dont restart yet Apr 09 12:51:52 hehe Apr 09 12:51:56 that passwordauthentication no thing looks iffy Apr 09 12:52:01 do a few things for me Apr 09 12:52:45 luwangui: or ignore me w/e Apr 09 12:52:59 i'm not Apr 09 12:53:01 lol Apr 09 12:53:10 what do you want me to do? Apr 09 12:53:34 luwangui: try /opt/sbin/sshd -Dd -p 22 Apr 09 12:53:40 1st) make sure u dont have stray event.d files Apr 09 12:54:02 "server listening on port 22" Apr 09 12:54:05 that's good right? :) Apr 09 12:54:09 luwangui: remove any file in /etc/event.d/ that is dropbear Apr 09 12:54:12 yeah, try sshing in now Apr 09 12:54:50 * rwhitby wonders whether he should give luwangui a third set of instructions to deal with in parallel ... Apr 09 12:54:56 *grin* Apr 09 12:54:57 got in :O Apr 09 12:54:58 lol Apr 09 12:55:03 forgot the key! Apr 09 12:55:03 rwhitby: try it, it's fun :) Apr 09 12:55:15 luwangui: forgot the what? Apr 09 12:55:30 why is PasswordAuthentication no failing on it then I wonder? Apr 09 12:55:39 authentication key Apr 09 12:55:40 sec Apr 09 12:55:58 sbromwich: passwordauthentication no requires a valid public and private key setup Apr 09 12:56:00 config file is overriding it Apr 09 12:56:08 set it in opensshd.conf Apr 09 12:56:09 I know, but it's giving an error Apr 09 12:56:18 cf http://dl.dropbox.com/u/802998/netstat.jpg Apr 09 12:56:18 prob wrong syntax Apr 09 12:56:22 oh great Apr 09 12:56:28 unable to use key file Apr 09 12:56:32 wth Apr 09 12:56:35 I cut and pasted it from my event.d script so it shouldn't Apr 09 12:56:40 luwangui: ok, i want to know now: what was the error? Apr 09 12:56:55 couldn't use the key file.. just a sec Apr 09 12:57:13 "Extra argument PasswordAuthentication no", asmw Apr 09 12:57:19 sbromwich: that screen shot has a -i where it should have a -o Apr 09 12:57:20 but i need to type that command every time Apr 09 12:57:30 oh good catch Apr 09 12:57:43 no luwangui this is just to isolate the problenm Apr 09 12:57:48 ok Apr 09 12:58:03 luwangui: so the command terminates? Apr 09 12:58:04 cak the lab server just hit a load of 45 bbiab Apr 09 12:58:06 i guess i should consider it linux training lol Apr 09 12:58:12 luwangui: it doesn't keep running? Apr 09 12:58:15 it terminates when i close the connection Apr 09 12:58:19 from putty Apr 09 13:00:11 ok, how exactly did you generate your key pairs? Apr 09 13:00:15 server refused our key Apr 09 13:00:26 * luwangui bangs head on keyboard Apr 09 13:00:45 i just created it! Apr 09 13:01:16 luwangui: how? Apr 09 13:01:28 and where did you put the public key on the device? Apr 09 13:01:38 using /opt/bin/ssh-keygen Apr 09 13:01:41 ok, let's do this anyway Apr 09 13:01:47 luwangui: ls -l ~/.ssh/ Apr 09 13:01:51 put it on the usb drive Apr 09 13:02:00 erm Apr 09 13:02:02 then copied over and imported into putty Apr 09 13:02:35 which file was copied where? Apr 09 13:02:54 you copied id_rsa to your windows machine for usage with putty? Apr 09 13:03:09 id_rsa was made on the phone via terminal Apr 09 13:03:16 alternatively, one could just point luwangui to the wiki page where all this is explained ... Apr 09 13:03:18 somehow that procedure feels backwards Apr 09 13:03:23 I did that Apr 09 13:03:25 i followed the procedure Apr 09 13:04:16 from here http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:OpenSSH Apr 09 13:04:37 following the link to this page, right? http://unixwiz.net/techtips/putty-openssh.html Apr 09 13:04:38 can't get ls -l ~/.ssh to work Apr 09 13:05:08 rwhitby: yeah initially, but then i found out i had to do it the other way around Apr 09 13:05:16 if you look further down Apr 09 13:05:17 and ignoring all the other conflicting information that other people wrote below that most important link on the page Apr 09 13:05:59 i'm not sure i understand Apr 09 13:06:07 i used the "generate keys from webos method" Apr 09 13:06:12 luwangui: do ls -ld /var/home/root/.ssh Apr 09 13:06:13 Preware has no problem rebooting my phone -- but if I go to "device info" -> "reset options" -> and click "restart" .. the phone hangs apparently while shutting down. Apr 09 13:06:38 I don't see anything scary in /var/log/messages Apr 09 13:07:45 ooh -- maybe this lunasysmgr.log with a crash report is the culprit Apr 09 13:09:36 sbromwich: what am i looking for? Apr 09 13:09:39 i get one line Apr 09 13:10:23 argh Apr 09 13:10:30 wish i had copy/paste Apr 09 13:10:34 sec brb Apr 09 13:10:52 making sure there is actually a /var/home/root/.ssh dir Apr 09 13:12:49 there is Apr 09 13:13:57 there is an id_rsa.pub file Apr 09 13:14:54 maybe i copied the wrong file? Apr 09 13:15:56 is there an authroized_keys file? Apr 09 13:16:48 no just the one file Apr 09 13:17:06 ah-hah! Apr 09 13:17:11 :O Apr 09 13:17:37 cd /var/home/root/.ssh && rm id_rsa.pub && ssh-keygen -t rsa Apr 09 13:18:30 hit "enter" for the password, as long as you trust your own PC Apr 09 13:18:38 hmm so i'm deleting? Apr 09 13:18:47 deleting and recreating the ssh key Apr 09 13:18:54 ok Apr 09 13:19:00 "generating" Apr 09 13:19:02 you have a public key but not private key so sshd can't decrypt the connection Apr 09 13:19:33 ok so i need to copy it over again i'm guessing Apr 09 13:19:38 you should end up with id_rsa and id_rsa.pub Apr 09 13:19:40 to my pc that is Apr 09 13:19:51 now there are 2 files Apr 09 13:19:53 then copy the id_rsa.pub from your pc to authorized_keys in the .ssh dir Apr 09 13:20:12 authorized_keys is a filename not directory just to clarify Apr 09 13:21:47 wait, copy from the pc? Apr 09 13:21:52 not to it? Apr 09 13:22:32 yeah, the idea is you have a public key on your pc that you give you, that gets copied to authorized_keys to say that that key is permitted to authorised with key based authentication Apr 09 13:23:05 I have no idea what I meant to type with "you give you" but hopefully you get the idea Apr 09 13:23:28 kick in wakeup pills, kick in Apr 09 13:23:30 ok but there is no authorized_keys folder in the .ssh dir Apr 09 13:23:33 nup Apr 09 13:23:41 lol Apr 09 13:23:43 that means no-one is authorised to connect Apr 09 13:23:48 ah Apr 09 13:24:01 so i'll generate new keys on the pc Apr 09 13:24:07 which is exactly what you want - you don't want some random script kiddie getting into your pre playing silly buggers Apr 09 13:24:16 yeah, might be an idea to start from scratch on the pc side too Apr 09 13:24:24 roger Apr 09 13:24:34 we don't like script kiddies.. Apr 09 13:24:46 we hates them, my precious, we does so hates them. Apr 09 13:25:01 xD Apr 09 13:25:36 there's an autistic guy at the province who does nothing but watch the firewall logs all day long and fire off complaints about script kiddies Apr 09 13:26:22 haha Apr 09 13:28:02 nt4cats: https://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=5527&start=0 Apr 09 13:28:06 that problem? Apr 09 13:28:11 ok copying the generated pc key onto the usb drive Apr 09 13:29:52 luwangui: that is the public key you're copying, yes? Apr 09 13:30:00 yea Apr 09 13:30:24 bear with my slowness lol Apr 09 13:31:10 i can't ls on the internal drive? Apr 09 13:31:37 ls /media/internal errors? Apr 09 13:31:47 doesn't do anything Apr 09 13:31:49 asmw: doesn't look the same. http://webos.pastebin.com/tU3w4gpc Apr 09 13:32:16 luwangui: maybe you should doctor your phone, it seems to do strange things Apr 09 13:32:47 but all my apps :?( Apr 09 13:33:08 :'( Apr 09 13:33:34 maybe because its mounted Apr 09 13:33:40 luwangui: i don't know, but not being able to access /media/internal, dunno what's broken Apr 09 13:33:49 in usb mode? Apr 09 13:34:02 take it out of usb mode Apr 09 13:34:10 no usb mode while you're trying CLI access Apr 09 13:34:20 my bad Apr 09 13:34:29 "just charge" is the option of choice Apr 09 13:34:52 yeah but i was copying the keys over Apr 09 13:35:06 *nod* Apr 09 13:35:13 pull it out of usb once you're done Apr 09 13:35:13 luwangui: i thought you had already done that Apr 09 13:35:27 like i said, bear with my slowness lol Apr 09 13:35:32 luwangui: usb mode for copying is fine, just turn of usb mode when you're done the copy. that's all Apr 09 13:35:50 yeah it got it Apr 09 13:35:56 nt4cats: i don't like luna any more... Apr 09 13:35:59 luwangui: don't apologize, we see you're trying Apr 09 13:36:08 asmw: you run your Pre headless, then :) Apr 09 13:36:52 nt4cats: TUI ftw Apr 09 13:37:25 there Apr 09 13:37:30 nt4cats: I had a really hard look at SHR from the openmoko project Apr 09 13:37:31 public key file is on the pre Apr 09 13:37:40 or something like that Apr 09 13:37:42 in the authorized_keys fodler Apr 09 13:37:46 folder lol Apr 09 13:37:57 asmw: other than the fact that I cannot reboot using this specific technique (but other reboots work), I've been quite stable since getting 1.4.1.1 *and* upgrading the Facebook beta from 1.1.4 to 1.1.6 Apr 09 13:37:58 luwangui: try cp /media/internal/id_rsa.pub /var/home/root/.ssh/authorized_keys Apr 09 13:37:59 authorized_keys can be a folder? Apr 09 13:38:14 sbromwich: yeah i did that Apr 09 13:38:17 or wherever you stored it ont he usb folder Apr 09 13:38:29 asmw: no it has to be a flat file Apr 09 13:38:31 now do i ssh with the public key from the pc? Apr 09 13:38:37 nt4cats: im in europe and have 1.4.1, several crashes daily, mostly when unlocking the phone Apr 09 13:38:41 "authorized_keys" is the file name Apr 09 13:38:57 oooh Apr 09 13:38:58 en0x: ok, then luwangui has a new problem to solve :) Apr 09 13:39:05 1.4.1 had 1-2 crashes a day for me when unlocking. Apr 09 13:39:10 err 1.4 did Apr 09 13:39:11 ok try running the sshd -Dd -p 22 command and see if you can get in Apr 09 13:39:24 i'll just rename it to "authorized_keys" then Apr 09 13:39:27 luwangui: just copy the public key into the .ssh folder and rename it authorized_keus Apr 09 13:39:39 don't copy it over the id_rsa.pub you just generated on the pre! Apr 09 13:39:49 any quick way to copy a file one folder down Apr 09 13:39:51 well no Apr 09 13:39:53 don;t Apr 09 13:39:55 don't Apr 09 13:40:04 they don't have the same file names anyway Apr 09 13:40:08 1.4.1.1 (US Sprint) was better, but still crashed some -- but the crashes went away the day I upgraded the Facebook beta app. An app shouldn't be able to destabilize your UI, but the 1.1.4 beta did leave many orphaned background threads, so maybe that was the problem Apr 09 13:40:22 ah ok Apr 09 13:40:28 nt4cats: hmm, i don't use facebook Apr 09 13:40:33 yeah just cp the file in to your .ssh dir Apr 09 13:40:53 and once that's done run sshd and see if you get any further Apr 09 13:41:14 sigh Apr 09 13:41:15 one sec Apr 09 13:41:21 can't delete folder, not empty Apr 09 13:41:21 gah Apr 09 13:41:42 asmw: I felt a bit crazy thinking that the FB app effected my stability, but I've reviewed everything I did on the phone and there is really no other option to explain how I suddenly stopped crashing. Maybe you use an app that does the same sort of thing that FB beta 1.1.4 was doing Apr 09 13:41:44 hang on what? Apr 09 13:41:47 delete folder? Apr 09 13:41:51 which one? Apr 09 13:42:05 no i'm not hangin, i'm just a noob at linux commands lol Apr 09 13:42:16 *it's not hanging Apr 09 13:42:19 nt4cats: besides drpodder and the palm apps i don't yet use that many apps Apr 09 13:43:13 luwangui: just rename the folder Apr 09 13:43:31 mv authorized_keys authorized_keys.folder Apr 09 13:43:58 you can delete it later with rm -rf if you're sure you didn't accidently stash something valuable in there Apr 09 13:44:26 yeah nm i think i got it Apr 09 13:44:38 now Apr 09 13:45:13 so now you have a file called authorized_keys with the contents of your public key in it in the .ssh subfolder of your home directory? Apr 09 13:45:39 yes Apr 09 13:45:49 chmod 600 authorized_keys Apr 09 13:46:03 that makes it readable for root only Apr 09 13:46:08 ah yes Apr 09 13:46:11 the dreaded permissions Apr 09 13:46:16 done Apr 09 13:46:37 now for "sshd -Dd -p 22" ? Apr 09 13:46:53 yup Apr 09 13:47:13 "sshd re-exec requires execution with an absolute patch" Apr 09 13:47:45 path* Apr 09 13:47:46 sorry Apr 09 13:48:13 kill the existing server instance first Apr 09 13:48:34 killall sshd Apr 09 13:48:54 or killall -KILL sshd if you want to be really sure Apr 09 13:49:14 "no processes killed" Apr 09 13:49:23 the plot thickens... Apr 09 13:49:52 same error Apr 09 13:50:19 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 09 13:50:54 luwangui: try a chmod 700 .ssh too Apr 09 13:50:57 for good measure Apr 09 13:51:06 chmod 700 ~/.ssh/ Apr 09 13:51:10 chmod 700 ~/.ssh Apr 09 13:51:12 well that didn't take long... posted that video in a sleepy haze before I went to bed... woke up in a sleepy haze and it's on the front page of precentral... Apr 09 13:52:19 nice work :-) Apr 09 13:52:28 run sshd -Dd -p 22 luwangui Apr 09 13:52:41 phil_bw: you're a PR genius - doing things in your sleep ;) Apr 09 13:52:55 sbromwich: can't Apr 09 13:52:57 rwhitby: haha Apr 09 13:53:13 luwangui: try it with an absolute path Apr 09 13:53:34 luwangui: maybe /usr/sbin/sshd -dD -p 22 Apr 09 13:54:03 i'm gonna look for it Apr 09 13:54:13 luwangui: but i'm not sure where the openssh binary is on the pre Apr 09 13:54:26 try: which sshd Apr 09 13:54:35 though it would have been nice if Jason would have maybe *mentioned* me somewhere. I completely give all the hard work credit to others, but I did waste the time (and space) installing openoffice, taking the vid, editing the vid, uploading it, etc.. Apr 09 13:54:37 should give you the path Apr 09 13:54:41 opt folder Apr 09 13:55:01 luwangui: d'oh... it's _OPT_ware Apr 09 13:55:08 herp derop Apr 09 13:55:10 derp* Apr 09 13:55:14 :p Apr 09 13:55:14 I guess I could use a nap Apr 09 13:55:35 luwangui: try /opt/sbin/sshd -Dd -p 22 Apr 09 13:55:46 up and running :) Apr 09 13:55:55 now for the moment of truth Apr 09 13:56:01 phil_bw: yeah, I agree. Apr 09 13:56:18 spent 4 hours now getting it to work Apr 09 13:56:35 the day started out with me wanting to try getting "hello world" to work Apr 09 13:56:38 4 hours later... Apr 09 13:57:11 so which key file do i use? Apr 09 13:57:20 the one i generated for the pc, right? Apr 09 13:58:00 luwangui: yes Apr 09 13:58:16 luwangui: if this try fails, get virtualbox and an ubuntu iso Apr 09 13:58:29 or skip virtualbox and use wubi Apr 09 13:58:51 ch2175a:~# uptime Apr 09 13:58:51 10:57AM up 155 days, 14:39, 4 users, load average: 60.35, 41.81, 30.56 Apr 09 13:58:53 ouch. Apr 09 13:59:02 there's only 5 processors in there too Apr 09 13:59:08 sbromwich: that's a 80-core box, right? Apr 09 13:59:13 sbromwich: mine also seems to have constant loads > 10 Apr 09 13:59:13 I wish Apr 09 13:59:24 sbromwich: that's on the pre, right? Apr 09 13:59:37 10:59:05 root@h9328n1:~ # uptime Apr 09 13:59:37 10:59AM up 110 days, 1:48, 504 users, load average: 0.73, 0.47, 0.38 Apr 09 13:59:40 oh the delicious irony :-/ Apr 09 14:00:07 sbromwich: I just logged in and fixed it for you. Check now. Apr 09 14:01:19 * luwangui sighs Apr 09 14:01:37 luwangui: out of relief or is it still not working? Apr 09 14:01:41 phil_bw: I've added a comment: http://www.precentral.net/x-server-coming-webos-bringing-along-openoffice#comment-82734 Apr 09 14:01:47 won't accept my key :S Apr 09 14:03:02 nt4cats only down to 47 Apr 09 14:03:45 luwangui: get cygwin with openssh Apr 09 14:03:50 just had the on-call dba paged to give oracle a kick in the nadgers Apr 09 14:04:07 sbromwich: no you misunderstand. I ran the load of the other box up to 60 Apr 09 14:04:30 bast. Apr 09 14:04:40 my head hurts Apr 09 14:05:25 phil_bw: also: http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/11882100071 Apr 09 14:06:33 rwhitby: thanks :) Apr 09 14:06:53 now up to 72 wtf? Apr 09 14:06:55 * rwhitby is a stickler for correct credit Apr 09 14:07:31 phil_bw: there's usually enough credit in the stuff we do for everyone involved to get half each ;-) Apr 09 14:07:32 thank heavens my pre keeps me updated with the current status :-) Apr 09 14:08:53 why didn't I buy Palm at 3.45 Apr 09 14:09:24 rwhitby: and thanks again. as I said I don't want credit for the things I didn't do (such as the X server itself). but this was still a rather time consuming venture, especially cleaning up fvwm to make a decent video Apr 09 14:09:42 phil_bw: absolutely Apr 09 14:09:56 phil_bw: nice vid btw Apr 09 14:10:26 zsoc_wirc: thanks Apr 09 14:10:58 phil_bw: I bet you didn't realise you'd be the competitor for DataViz ... Apr 09 14:11:58 * nt4cats considers taking up a collection to buy phil_bw a mini-tripod ... Apr 09 14:12:01 ;) Apr 09 14:12:18 morning Apr 09 14:12:27 hey Rick_work. abiword is close. Apr 09 14:12:37 you're kidding me?!?!?!?! Apr 09 14:12:44 is that phil_bw ???? Apr 09 14:12:54 Rick_work: would we kid about a thing like that? Apr 09 14:13:06 phil_bw is there anything I can do to help? Not that I would know how to help... but hey, one must ask. Apr 09 14:13:44 Rick_work: you saw http://www.precentral.net/x-server-coming-webos-bringing-along-openoffice right? Apr 09 14:13:51 hey Rick Apr 09 14:13:52 I can sacrifice small animals.... Chant in long-forgotten languages, propiate gods you've never heard of..... Apr 09 14:14:09 abiword is done, on my Pre anyway Apr 09 14:14:16 phil_bw: Rick_work has been asking for abiword since 20090606 Apr 09 14:14:19 works nice :) Apr 09 14:14:24 wow. Apr 09 14:14:37 you BEAT DATAVIZ to the punch!!! WOW Apr 09 14:14:51 DataViz, schmartaviz Apr 09 14:14:51 Have we asked what the chances of getting into the app cat are? Apr 09 14:15:49 phil_bw: abiword is considerably faster than openoffice I suppose? Apr 09 14:16:02 I'm flaberghastes. phil_bw who do I have to have injured to have you send me an IPK? Apr 09 14:16:10 open office is massive bloatware. Apr 09 14:16:35 they tried to include everything that microsoft office can do. It's Sun's "we're smarter than you are" piece. Apr 09 14:16:42 true Apr 09 14:17:02 sorry guys, feedin the kid before I go to work, responses might be slow Apr 09 14:17:25 If it's not packaged by tonight, I'll donate some time to it. Apr 09 14:17:32 i think that suffices as a good enough excuse Apr 09 14:17:49 Rick_work: if it'll help you can injure me Apr 09 14:18:16 * luwangui is going to get some aspirin Apr 09 14:18:24 Rick: there is a lot of work required to make it all happen. but if I do recall you spent quite a bit of time helping me with an issue over in #webos when I was about to shoot myself (stupid ares) so if you want a step by step tutorial and some help just email me :) Apr 09 14:19:04 I -like- helping. Solving other people's problems is the way I learn fastest. Apr 09 14:19:19 and zsoc_wirc, yes abiword is quite a bit faster than openoffice Apr 09 14:19:24 phil_bw: can you give us a quick rundown of what needs to happen to make it packagable? we have X. what do we need? which WM are you using Apr 09 14:19:44 icewm? Apr 09 14:20:07 I'm using a stripped down version of fvwm Apr 09 14:20:20 for the sole reason that it has virtual desktops Apr 09 14:20:50 so I can use the "desker" module to move around and get to windows that are off the screen Apr 09 14:20:58 how long to load ??? Apr 09 14:20:59 hmm.. interesting. is it software compositing? Apr 09 14:21:18 abiword? lemme time it, brb Apr 09 14:21:30 (im in wirc atm) Apr 09 14:23:16 26 sec to editing a doc Apr 09 14:23:24 that's at 500mhz with wirc running Apr 09 14:23:40 I bet it opens faster the second time Apr 09 14:23:51 lemme try Apr 09 14:24:19 5 sec Apr 09 14:24:25 :o Apr 09 14:24:48 so not bad Apr 09 14:25:00 phil_bw: and the ui is usable? Apr 09 14:25:02 wow Apr 09 14:25:56 asmw, it would be a bit better if the "web view" option wrapped text like in openoffice. I'm going to dig around the prefs and see if it's possible Apr 09 14:26:26 so, after first use, after a reboot, 5 seconds, or after first use, first load 30 sec, subsiquent 5.... ??? Apr 09 14:27:09 Rick_work: the main impediment to packaging at the moment is working out how best to store a huge Debian chroot image on the Pre. It requires symlinks, and it's too big for /var Apr 09 14:27:17 dear lord how much i love this phone... Apr 09 14:27:40 * sbromwich wants a lasergun addon for his pre. Apr 09 14:27:51 or perhaps taser. Apr 09 14:28:08 rick: first use about 30 sec, subsequint launches 5 sec Apr 09 14:28:19 woo broken Apr 09 14:28:33 phil_bw: see told ya ;) Apr 09 14:28:43 Rick_work: so we're considering writing a modified version of cryptofs (but still keeping the executable called cryptofs, so that the pkill -USR1 calls in /usr/sbin/storaged notify it of USB mode) that has no encryption overhead, but does support symlinks on a vfat partition Apr 09 14:28:44 anyhow, I need to go to work, if ya need anything I'll leave wirc running and catch ya in an hour Apr 09 14:29:14 Rick_work: so we need a linux developer who has used FUSE before Apr 09 14:29:28 rwhitby: how about a script to delete /media/internal and recreate it smaller to have a dedicated LV for /opt? Apr 09 14:30:03 sbromwich: "I installed OpenOffice, and it deleted the single copy of my wedding photos" Apr 09 14:30:42 rwhitby: yeah, this would be an initial script plastered with warnings that all data on the usb drive will be deleted, clean first, use at own risk, etc Apr 09 14:31:02 * sbromwich might possibly be too anal about performance. Apr 09 14:31:15 sbromwich: you'd still need to choose a size - we can do a loopback today if we're happy to choose a size Apr 09 14:31:32 that'd be something to offer the user Apr 09 14:31:45 I think I left mine at 4 gig so I could shuttle copies of QI off to friends Apr 09 14:31:53 choices for a user. a recipe for disaster Apr 09 14:31:57 that's about the only reason I need it as a usb drive ;-) Apr 09 14:31:58 heh Apr 09 14:32:23 oh, if only webos had perl bindings. Apr 09 14:32:42 sbromwich: a pass-through FUSE driver should be fairly quick Apr 09 14:33:00 we'd only touch directory lookups for symlink handling Apr 09 14:33:01 not as quick as direct ext3 with noatime ;-) Apr 09 14:33:12 imagine how many microseconds you could save! Apr 09 14:33:32 sbromwich: well, those concerned with performance that much will know how to edit /etc/fstab to get that :-) Apr 09 14:33:44 why is there no stand alone preware installer using precom? Apr 09 14:33:47 fair point ;-) Apr 09 14:34:08 ghost_of_zsoc: cause a windows user hasn't written it yet Apr 09 14:34:33 but it would be so small Apr 09 14:34:36 and sexy Apr 09 14:36:15 what's precom? Apr 09 14:36:28 windows' novacomd? Apr 09 14:36:49 sbromwich: it's an opensource novacom clone written by bpal Apr 09 14:36:57 ahhh, nice Apr 09 14:37:21 sbromwich: it works on linux/mac, and in theory works on windows, statically compiled with the libusb-win32 lib Apr 09 14:37:47 ghost_of_zsoc: did we ever get that distributed Apr 09 14:37:49 does it fix the novaterm cr/lf bug? Apr 09 14:37:49 sbromwich: it would remove the prereq of downloading a 200mb doctor to install preware, like you have to with wosqi Apr 09 14:37:50 on all platforms Apr 09 14:37:54 heh Apr 09 14:37:59 PuffTheMagic: no, because we're all lazy asshats Apr 09 14:38:05 asshats++ Apr 09 14:38:32 isn't oil a windows developer? make him do it Apr 09 14:38:41 * PuffTheMagic hates waiting for Fedex Apr 09 14:39:17 Sbromwich: you around? Apr 09 14:39:35 ish Apr 09 14:39:43 lab servers are having problems Apr 09 14:39:45 problem solved Apr 09 14:39:49 sweet Apr 09 14:39:51 what was it? Apr 09 14:41:07 ... Apr 09 14:41:22 mmmmmmkay Apr 09 14:41:27 the suspense killed me Apr 09 14:41:47 what was it caj? Apr 09 14:41:58 fd Apr 09 14:42:05 having Apr 09 14:42:09 trouble Apr 09 14:42:19 ~enter Apr 09 14:42:22 the enter key is not a substitute for punctuation. Use a period '.', exclamation mark '!', question mark '?', comma ',', colon ':', semi-colon ';' emdash '--', or ellipsis '...' instead. Apr 09 14:42:46 .!?,:;--... Apr 09 14:42:48 var/home/root Apr 09 14:42:56 ah-hah Apr 09 14:43:04 not /var/home/root? Apr 09 14:43:08 that would explain it Apr 09 14:43:08 changed to temp Apr 09 14:43:26 I was up to 4aM Apr 09 14:43:42 go back to bed! Apr 09 14:43:46 I issues an apology on your old thread Apr 09 14:43:57 I saw it, thanks :-) Apr 09 14:44:22 I really couldnt see straight yesterday Apr 09 14:44:50 All of these activities too much Apr 09 14:45:06 caj2008: the new ipkgs - who created those? Apr 09 14:45:29 The ipk solution was a combination of Jason and Number1Pete\ Apr 09 14:45:59 caj2008: they seem to be a java service directory structure, containing an embedded kernel & modules tarball shell script, embedded and executed inside an ipkg Apr 09 14:46:31 it seems to work on all people. It is not the final ipk, that will be an app Apr 09 14:47:01 protoype already built Apr 09 14:47:02 oh, who's developing the app? Apr 09 14:47:35 how will the app handle OTA ? Apr 09 14:47:43 sveral people including myself, isnt finished yet so I will let you know as you dont have much confidence in me Apr 09 14:47:59 I don't know where you got that idea Apr 09 14:48:18 I am working on the OTA end at the end Apr 09 14:49:03 I am doing this in stages, my goal is completely depart PC by mid May Apr 09 14:49:04 you've given yourself a pretty short runway to get an OTA-safe solution developed. Apr 09 14:49:31 I will get it as close as possible before handoff to whomever Apr 09 14:50:19 This is not my real job and has occupied far too much time...cutting loose in May Apr 09 14:50:53 ok, just so you know, we're still working on the original plan of the webos-internals autobuilder transparently and openly building kernels from public patches, and packaging those kernels using AUPT-4 for delivery via a webOS-versioned hardware-patches custom feed for Preware Apr 09 14:51:29 I haven't yet seen open technical discussion of how an app will handle OTA issues. Apr 09 14:52:04 Is the app a closed development project? Apr 09 14:52:16 Keep me infomred as I still have a month before I go Apr 09 14:52:46 well, let's get some things straight first. this app - is it an open or closed development project? Apr 09 14:53:04 The app will be made vailable to all. I have never charge money and never will. When I exit this project I will have spent over 1500 in my own money after donations Apr 09 14:53:30 caj2008: I haven't mentioned money at all. I'm asking about the development process. Is it open or closed? Apr 09 14:53:33 I am ssuming there will be 500 given in a month Apr 09 14:53:40 open Apr 09 14:53:55 thought I was clear on tha Apr 09 14:53:56 ok, where is the technical discussion happening, so that we can participate? Apr 09 14:55:03 This is my baby and I want to get it working on all frequencies then I will get imput (learning project for me) Apr 09 14:55:21 so closed for a week or so then I willopen up Apr 09 14:55:26 ok, so it's not an open development project then. that's fine. just want to know up front. Apr 09 14:55:45 In a week it will be opne thats what I mean Apr 09 14:55:52 follow? Apr 09 14:55:52 why wait until then? Apr 09 14:56:16 I want to see what I can do without help, that is the way I learn best Apr 09 14:56:39 I will then collaborate to make a polished product Apr 09 14:56:46 interesting. I personally work the opposite way. Apr 09 14:57:32 My learning curve is different. This is not my main field so I have to dig down and learn where this is your field and its opld hat Apr 09 14:58:11 I'm learning heaps from the open discussion between the kernel devs here that know the most about power management on the OMAP Apr 09 14:58:19 Ask me about quantum mechanics, pharmacodynamics and I work the oposite (my fileds) Apr 09 14:58:29 follow? Apr 09 14:59:10 sometimes in order to learn you have to force yourself Apr 09 14:59:26 sure. just interested in understanding where other people are coming from, to avoid misunderstandings based on assumptions of the viewpoints that others have Apr 09 14:59:32 I have learned alot from your group Apr 09 14:59:51 and continue to do so Apr 09 15:00:36 it's not actually "my group" - everyone here is here by their own free will, and I have no formal authority over anyone here. Apr 09 15:00:41 I will make sure everytime I reach a milestone you will be copied on the results Apr 09 15:00:55 regardless Apr 09 15:01:09 your input will always be valued Apr 09 15:01:34 I'd be more interested in the underlying techniques and OTA-safe algorithm, rather than results. Apr 09 15:02:03 * oil wonders about this free will, and when the handcuffs chaining me to the desk willl be removed Apr 09 15:02:12 caj2008: I'd prefer to see the design before implementation, rather than after. But it's your development process, so it's your call. Apr 09 15:02:29 oil: when you start behaving yourself Apr 09 15:02:29 I need to get evrything to work and then I will send it to you for thought Apr 09 15:02:33 lol Apr 09 15:03:21 * asmw wonders if something like ksplice would be an option Apr 09 15:03:52 caj2008: don't send it to me, publish the design somewhere for many to review. Apr 09 15:04:16 my one set of eyes are poor compared to the many eyes of open source development Apr 09 15:04:19 publish where I dont have any time for any more documentation' Apr 09 15:04:58 I will send it to many including yourself, webOSInternal, and Jason to start Apr 09 15:05:13 ok? Apr 09 15:05:18 you don't need documentation to put the source code somewhere early and often as it develops Apr 09 15:05:37 lol this convo is going to go in circles Apr 09 15:05:50 caj get done what you can, then release it all to publkic domain for everyone to hack at Apr 09 15:05:56 I will put it on the thread then Apr 09 15:05:57 caj2008: Note that I'm not trying to tell you what to do - it's your development Apr 09 15:06:14 caj2008: I'm just telling you my opinion on what will get the best results from an open development process Apr 09 15:06:28 caj2008: my opinion is just one amongst many Apr 09 15:06:30 thread is ok? Apr 09 15:06:46 outside does a thread work? Apr 09 15:07:04 Anoutside: does a thread work? Apr 09 15:07:32 A git repo would be ideal, but any downloadable code location will suffice. Apr 09 15:08:33 ok no problem. For the past four months I havent seen much of my family and son so after this is done I wont be back Apr 09 15:09:18 caj2008: yeah, family should always come before ungrateful people on PreCentral who just want an ipkg Apr 09 15:09:24 Will work on new hobby professional video editing Apr 09 15:09:41 n family Apr 09 15:09:58 They make great subjects Apr 09 15:10:49 I have learned to translationally merge sound and video with a new editing program I am working on Apr 09 15:11:04 very easy to use Apr 09 15:12:07 I created the soundtrack from the last video using a synthesizer...to me that is more fun than this Apr 09 15:15:05 Rwhitby: did you see how people still dont recognize flag/source error on thread Apr 09 15:15:20 How many times was this explained? Apr 09 15:16:14 cfgmgr -v && powermt config Apr 09 15:16:20 lps -aef | grep ssrd Apr 09 15:16:24 er bugger Apr 09 15:18:03 caj2008: any solution that requires users to read and understand something will always require too much support to be sustainable Apr 09 15:31:02 hey guys Apr 09 15:32:30 hey beelzabub1 Apr 09 15:32:58 so the FUSE comment in the X-on-pre announcement is kind of vague - anyone know the reason? Apr 09 15:35:08 beelzabub1: vfat doesn't allow symlinks. Apr 09 15:35:31 beelzabub1: we need a non-crypto cryptofs which fakes symlinks when used on an underlying vfat backing store Apr 09 15:36:21 beelzabub1: the executable needs to be called 'cryptofs' so that the 'pkill -SIGUSR1 cryptofs' in /usr/sbin/storaged will also tell our FUSE driver to stop accessing /media/internal during USB mode Apr 09 15:36:36 if you guys write a cryptofs patch that adds symlinks support, i might be able to get it into an official release Apr 09 15:37:04 beelzabub1: that was my hope too Apr 09 15:37:43 beelzabub1: although we'll be hoping to elide the encryption overhead for a debian chroot mount as well Apr 09 15:38:01 (and then users can edit config files directly on the usb drive) Apr 09 15:38:07 i understand, although i've been looking at - the overhead isn't that big Apr 09 15:39:04 what's the latest public release? Apr 09 15:39:22 beelzabub1: of the X server? Apr 09 15:39:28 of cryptofs Apr 09 15:39:46 oh, dunno. I've only looked at the version palm is using Apr 09 15:41:30 http://freshmeat.net/projects/cryptofs/ says 0.6.0 which is what palm is using too Apr 09 15:43:41 morphis: hey, long time no see Apr 09 15:49:33 ghost_of_zsoc: heyho Apr 09 15:49:35 jupp Apr 09 15:49:41 was busy a for a long time Apr 09 15:51:00 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 09 15:51:34 any problems reported updating preware? Apr 09 15:51:59 i updated preware which rebooted my phone and now i have no apps other than the default ones.. like I just doctored but patches are still active Apr 09 15:52:09 refresh feeds? Apr 09 15:52:17 there IS no preware Apr 09 15:52:33 ohhhh Apr 09 15:52:43 that's a novelty Apr 09 15:52:57 only app that sohws is iWorldAtlas and it keeps failing to upgrade Apr 09 15:54:03 did you try reinstalling preware? Apr 09 15:55:21 morphis: any news on the fsp org front? Apr 09 15:56:00 no, it's already installed along with 100 other apps Apr 09 15:56:15 rwhitby: I'm looking at the cryptofs source -- it does support symlinks already, the trick is to make it support symlinks on an underlying FS that doesn't, right? (want to make sure we're on the same page here) Apr 09 15:56:56 Darkmagister: ciao Apr 09 15:57:08 ciao :D Apr 09 15:57:09 ghost_of_zsoc: we're quite close to a release of a kernel with an initramfs which contains everything you need to drive the Pre with FSO Apr 09 15:57:21 nt4cats: yes Apr 09 15:57:27 can you novaterm in Robi_? Apr 09 15:57:34 ghost_of_zsoc: aim is that you can make a call with the zhon2-interface together with the FSO framework Apr 09 15:57:47 ghost_of_zsoc: anything else will come later Apr 09 15:57:59 morphis: wow. that's pretty big news. open source stack that makes phone calls :) Apr 09 15:58:20 oooh, nice Apr 09 15:58:37 ghost_of_zsoc: jepp Apr 09 15:59:10 ghost_of_zsoc: we hope that, after we released this we will get more support from the community Apr 09 15:59:18 ghost_of_zsoc: there is a lot to work on Apr 09 15:59:43 ghost_of_zsoc: only a question of time :) Apr 09 16:01:28 morphis: everyone seems to be in full blast dev mode lately. we need more hands :) so many projects Apr 09 16:01:39 webOS is just so flexable :D Apr 09 16:02:02 ghost_of_zsoc: jepp, but our aim is not to use webOS anymore Apr 09 16:02:16 ghost_of_zsoc: or to replace most parts of it Apr 09 16:02:25 with open source equivalents Apr 09 16:02:55 maybe we can write later support for the webOS apps Apr 09 16:03:14 so you can run most webOS apps with an X-Server Apr 09 16:03:40 that's just grat, my cryptofs is empty Apr 09 16:03:40 oops, my new alpha kernel would appear to have killed my ringtones Apr 09 16:03:48 guess ext3 labels *are* required Apr 09 16:04:02 sbromwich: you do kernel development on the Pre? Apr 09 16:04:14 sbromwich: who needs ringtones? ;) Apr 09 16:04:25 Robi_: try a reboot with a battery pull? That helped someone with a similar problem a couple of days ago Apr 09 16:04:44 morphis: "development" might be overstating the case, I'm just trying to strip it down to barebones at the moment Apr 09 16:04:45 morphis: sbrom has some pretty amazing optimizations going on, which he would never admit to himself :D Apr 09 16:05:16 'some pretty amazing optimizations' ? Apr 09 16:05:21 speed? Apr 09 16:05:30 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html has working sound Apr 09 16:05:46 Robi_: Is it empty, or is it not mounted? Apr 09 16:05:51 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240874-read-thread-if-you-want-try-destroy-your-phone-new-kernel.html doesn't Apr 09 16:06:10 oh its mounted, just empty Apr 09 16:06:12 morphis: clocked to 800MHz with frequency scaling, amongst other things Apr 09 16:06:36 Robi_: I think your key failed, hence the battery pull Apr 09 16:06:36 ah ok Apr 09 16:06:45 just some speed relevant stuff Apr 09 16:06:51 yeah Apr 09 16:06:56 sbromwich: where do have your work? some git-repository? Apr 09 16:07:28 yeah... rwhitby can give you the exact address if he's still around? Apr 09 16:07:30 we'll see , rebooting now Apr 09 16:07:44 morphis: git.webos-internals.org Apr 09 16:07:46 it's whatever the default webos-internals tree is Apr 09 16:07:54 morphis: kernels/patches.git Apr 09 16:07:56 rwhitby: ah, ok Apr 09 16:08:08 sbromwich: morphis has commit access, just like you ;-) Apr 09 16:08:18 rwhitby: on fso.org we even setup up an git-repository Apr 09 16:08:22 oh yeah rub it in rwhitby why don't you ;-) Apr 09 16:08:51 will pull your stuff and take a look Apr 09 16:09:05 it's mainly just a .config Apr 09 16:09:11 the threads explain what I'm doing Apr 09 16:09:26 the biggest performance boost I got other than overclocking was disabling syslogging Apr 09 16:09:30 sbromwich: still no change Apr 09 16:09:37 sbromwich: hehe Apr 09 16:09:49 I am still of the opinion it is interfering with pulseaudio and the root cause of a lot of crashes I saw Apr 09 16:10:10 Robi_: I'm afraid I'm stuck then, that's not a problem I've seen :-( Apr 09 16:10:14 is there an app to record audio only? Apr 09 16:11:01 gang's all here now lol Apr 09 16:11:06 uNiXpSyChO is the guy doing all the heavy lifting ;-) Apr 09 16:11:24 urr? did i just volunteer for something? :) Apr 09 16:11:26 Robi_: yes, but it's not out yet. if you like, you can alpha test it for me Apr 09 16:11:49 ghost_of_zsoc: sure as soon as I get my pre back in working order Apr 09 16:12:10 Robi_: I would reinstall preware and ipkgservice first Apr 09 16:12:24 uNiXpSyChO: something about writing a new kernel for the phone? ;-) Apr 09 16:12:37 no, i think sbromwich is right, my cryptofs is failing to mount , need to figure out why and correct it Apr 09 16:12:58 the only thing that i can think of is that I changed perms on su Apr 09 16:13:13 Robi_: it shouldn't ever fail to mount. if a cold reboot doesn't work, it's beyond my ... oh.. that could do it Apr 09 16:13:15 i know nothing about kernels, or unix. Apr 09 16:13:15 Robi_: I've seen a couple of instances of that now Apr 09 16:13:30 uNiXpSyChO: did you push your patch update? Apr 09 16:13:49 rwhitby: yes. at least i thought i pushed it. Apr 09 16:13:56 isn't there something in palm's bootup that runs su -l to execute from a login shell? Apr 09 16:14:00 hi to all ... Apr 09 16:14:06 rwhitby: of what exactly? cryptofs coming up empty? Apr 09 16:14:11 uNiXpSyChO: what is this unix of which you talk? Apr 09 16:14:21 Robi_: of cryptofs not being mounted Apr 09 16:14:26 how to verify it's mouting with the correct key? Apr 09 16:14:53 my df says /media/internal is the same as /media/cryptofs Apr 09 16:15:09 2.6M used and 6.7G free Apr 09 16:15:32 sbromwich: i think unix is something without a mouse. who wants to use that? Apr 09 16:16:08 HTC is buying Palm... hmm Apr 09 16:16:20 uNiXpSyChO: that just sounds wrong. Does it crash on a regular basis so I at least have time to go for coffee? Apr 09 16:16:24 as here we go -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 445640 Feb 14 11:30 /bin/busybox Apr 09 16:17:14 dammit I should have kept my palm shares after all Apr 09 16:17:15 sbromwich: does it leave me with a BSOD? GPF? or Dr. Watson? Apr 09 16:17:40 sbromwich: i should have too. i sold it a while back when it peaked up at $12ish Apr 09 16:17:46 uNiXpSyChO: I'm sure we could add them in, it doesn't sound like this unix thing has advanced utilities like that Apr 09 16:17:54 sbromwich: btw. why not pushing your changes in a separte branch in the linux-2.6.git repo? Apr 09 16:18:09 i have some question ... about translation ... i had see some differences and i can't find all the string Apr 09 16:18:22 sbromwich: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=summary - no updates from you Apr 09 16:18:26 morphis: I'm only doing .config changes, my aim is to see what's actually required by the phone just to work vs what palm enabled for debugging, etc Apr 09 16:18:39 rwhitby: mmm, no Apr 09 16:18:43 ah ok I understand Apr 09 16:18:49 I haven't compiled a kernel on mason yet either Apr 09 16:18:50 oops Apr 09 16:18:56 uNiXpSyChO: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=summary - no updates from you Apr 09 16:19:05 damn. where the hell did i push it too Apr 09 16:19:19 uNiXpSyChO: pushed it off the table onto the floor? Apr 09 16:20:01 uNiXpSyChO: buyout is still a rumor, unless you know something we dont Apr 09 16:21:15 uNiXpSyChO: did you commit but not push ? Apr 09 16:23:55 fell off the table I guess Apr 09 16:24:05 ok reset /bin/busybox to 755, reboot, no change Apr 09 16:24:09 sbromwich: have faith in palm Apr 09 16:24:11 damn. i think i did do commit 1st. Apr 09 16:24:28 uNiXpSyChO: add? Apr 09 16:25:08 hmm during reboot, 4755 busybox probably created files that can't be read by non-privileged services Apr 09 16:25:20 hence things are coming up empty Apr 09 16:25:40 rwhitby: its still queued up. let me start over; delete 1st, then add. Apr 09 16:25:56 beelzabub1: I do, I used to work for USR when the palm first came out, the pre is very close to what I dreamed of when we get the first beta units :-) Apr 09 16:26:37 sbromwich - we'll get there Apr 09 16:26:58 beelzabub1: thanks but I'm getting pretty close all by myself ;-) Apr 09 16:32:05 now its there... although there is some garbage i pushed before hand Apr 09 16:34:37 someone just pointed out the umsdos filesystem driver Apr 09 16:35:47 are there any 3d apps available on the palm catalog in canada? Apr 09 16:41:48 So where is dbsooner? the masses are complaining about the landscape msging app not working in 1.4.1(.1) Apr 09 16:42:04 dBsooner: hey! HEY! Apr 09 16:42:49 ghost_of_zsoc: not as many as are complaining about SMS Tone per Contact not uninstalling Apr 09 16:43:18 rwhitby: yeah was looking at the umsdos driver--that could be rather useful. they mention some performance hits, I wonder how they compare to our cryptofs-without-crypto idea Apr 09 16:50:06 can someone tell me what the saved packages list is all about? The wiki doesn't mention it Apr 09 16:51:15 dtzWill - what kind of performance hits Apr 09 16:51:34 if there's no overhead as compared to regular fat, there's not really an issue (aside from disk space usage) Apr 09 16:52:47 beelzabub1: I'll absolutely take your word on that--my source is the wikipedia article I read about it 20 minutes ago. filesystems are not my forte :) Apr 09 16:53:41 i didn't see a mention of any performance issues on wikipedia Apr 09 16:53:51 Does anyone know when Flash is coming out for the pre? Beta ir Official Apr 09 16:54:02 only at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/UMSDOS-HOWTO-9.html#ss9.3 Apr 09 16:54:42 Guest43461: we're all waiting, just like you Apr 09 16:55:08 I was just wondering, thanks Apr 09 16:56:56 beelzabub1: all it mentions is that ext2 is faster on wiki, which isn't entirely unexpected given the extra layer. I think I misread the later sentence indicating vfat didn't have the same issue, anyway I'm wrong and happily so since umsdos looks promising Apr 09 16:57:31 beelzabub1: thanks for the link though Apr 09 16:57:36 yeah - that ext2 comparison is misleading since it's a non-issue. we're comparing regular fat vs umdos Apr 09 16:57:50 2nd link on google - sometimes i don't feel lucky Apr 09 16:57:54 beelzabub1: agreed Apr 09 16:57:55 heh Apr 09 17:08:21 ok, I've been following the filesystem conversation in bits and pieces now. so why is it we can't just extract the img into a directory in /media/cryptofs as it already sits and chroot to it there? Apr 09 17:08:36 phil_bw: symlinks Apr 09 17:08:53 thank you Apr 09 17:09:16 and maybe +x on vfat too Apr 09 17:09:42 * rwhitby bbt - night all Apr 09 17:09:58 'night rwhitby Apr 09 17:10:00 i still think symlinks in a shadow directory on var might be best if we can get you pre-wipe hooks so you can back it up Apr 09 17:10:27 night, rod. sweet dreams Apr 09 17:10:29 * sbromwich has to reboot back to stock stable 800mhz kernel due to on call starting in 2 hours Apr 09 17:10:31 *sorrow* Apr 09 17:10:52 beelzabub1: we'd still need a post-boot hook to untar the shadow tree again Apr 09 17:11:03 not really Apr 09 17:11:12 you already need some kind of restore process Apr 09 17:11:18 ah, put it in the driver itself Apr 09 17:11:29 before a wipe, you back up the shadow directory into a tarball Apr 09 17:11:33 somewhere on media/internal Apr 09 17:11:39 when you restore, you extract it Apr 09 17:11:53 true, the existing needed re-bootstrap can do it Apr 09 17:11:57 it won't be automatic, but then that's the purpose of a wipe in many ways - it's a dangerous operation Apr 09 17:12:35 i'll talk about it with the guys here today to see what i can do Apr 09 17:12:43 beelzabub1: do you know if any testing has been done on how small /media/internal can get before it starts causing problems? Apr 09 17:12:52 i suspect none Apr 09 17:12:57 fair enough :-) Apr 09 17:13:02 wait Apr 09 17:13:10 what do you mean - in terms of how full it is? Apr 09 17:13:18 or how small you can repartition Apr 09 17:13:32 app catalog will check how full it is Apr 09 17:13:37 in terms of I don't use the usb drive functionality so I want to shrink it down and dedicate more space to other stuff Apr 09 17:13:37 i suspect the answer in both cases is that things will still just work since those two scenarios from an app perspective are pretty much the same Apr 09 17:14:03 is there a minimum free space level I should keep to? Apr 09 17:14:36 i don't know of any official one - i would leave at least 1 or 2 gigs free Apr 09 17:14:54 sounds reasonable, thanks :-) Apr 09 17:14:57 * rwhitby staggers off Apr 09 17:15:03 it shouldn't cause problems though - if it does, let me know Apr 09 17:15:24 well, I have to keep my phone stable for the next 7 days as I'm on call ;-) Apr 09 17:15:58 * sbromwich is missing PREEMPT already :-( Apr 09 17:23:04 does preempt make a difference? Apr 09 17:23:17 also, we've figured out the wipe-problem Apr 09 17:24:08 if you check the mountall scripts, there's a tokens it checks to determine whether or not to perform a wipe & what kind Apr 09 17:24:27 if you install a shutdown hook, you can check to see if there's an erase-var hook & then just do a back up Apr 09 17:25:47 pre-empt makes a very big difference Apr 09 17:26:18 pre-empt + no syslog + 800MHz + cpufreq ondemand + cpufreq tuning +noop io scheduler +... um some other stuff I don't recall Apr 09 17:26:42 I can dig out the threads on precentral linking to my .config and uImage if you want? Apr 09 17:27:41 or just search for my posts on there and you can see me slowly fiddling about and getting stuff set up more and more cleanly ;-) Apr 09 17:27:44 no - i've seen them Apr 09 17:28:13 i'm curious if preempt does what you think it does - in theory some of the drivers on pre aren't pre-empt safe Apr 09 17:28:54 pre-empt does exactly what I think it does, there's a perceptible difference Apr 09 17:29:16 disabling syslogging reduces disk traffic sufficiently I don't hit the bug (I'm guess the closed source SD driver?) Apr 09 17:29:27 this might be suboptimal for palm's requirements though ;-) Apr 09 17:29:37 SD driver? Apr 09 17:29:56 is the flash disk driver closed source? Apr 09 17:29:56 does everything work including all media & stuff (media playback, camera, etc)? Apr 09 17:30:01 no clue Apr 09 17:30:06 heh Apr 09 17:30:09 I thought that was one of them Apr 09 17:30:20 it does media, I havne't tested camera Apr 09 17:30:37 I have an hour and a half till on call, I can do a quick boot to check camera Apr 09 17:33:34 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Thu Apr 8 20:40:22 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown booting Apr 09 17:35:22 * Mousey puts on his camera botos Apr 09 17:35:23 boots, even Apr 09 17:35:47 wow. Apr 09 17:35:53 that's... different. Apr 09 17:35:57 yeah, camera is AFU Apr 09 17:36:16 and none-maximised the whole screen flickers once every 2 seconds Apr 09 17:36:29 yup :) Apr 09 17:36:29 is this the... what was it, IVA2? bug? Apr 09 17:36:44 no clue Apr 09 17:36:51 screen still flickers after closing camera which is interesting Apr 09 17:37:37 oh yeah, not a happy camper at all Apr 09 17:37:46 yeah - i wouldn't be surprised that if once you f-up the kernel it stays that way Apr 09 17:37:49 let me try the other less stripped kernel for SNG Apr 09 17:38:28 oh hello... Apr 09 17:38:43 I think it might be the accelerometer Apr 09 17:38:54 if the phone is static no flicker Apr 09 17:39:08 let me see if I can manage to start the camera without triggering the accelerometer Apr 09 17:40:01 it's flickering fairly closely in sync with the fan of the computer it's sat on Apr 09 17:40:12 still grey screen though Apr 09 17:41:27 and flickers on touchscreen press too Apr 09 17:41:47 ok, I'm going to boot the other kernel Apr 09 17:43:36 yeah, i wouldn't spend too much time on it Apr 09 17:44:12 I'm waiting on oracle to get its collective s*** together on the lab server so I have a little time to kill ;-) Apr 09 17:44:21 :) Apr 09 17:45:35 tada Apr 09 17:45:36 works. Apr 09 17:45:45 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Wed Apr 7 22:12:00 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 09 17:46:03 did you reboot or actually fix the flicker? Apr 09 17:46:28 rebooted to my other alpha kernel Apr 09 17:46:34 no flicker, camera works Apr 09 17:47:57 nice - how'd you fix it? Apr 09 17:48:49 beats me ;-) Apr 09 17:48:58 lol - those are the best :0 Apr 09 17:49:29 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html is the kernel, I linked to the config in the thread later Apr 09 17:50:08 btw - i believe the recommendation is to use cfq Apr 09 17:50:15 it should be faster Apr 09 17:50:36 and for the "pics or it didn't happen" crew: Apr 09 17:50:38 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/PRE_2010-04-09-144642.jpg Apr 09 17:50:56 have you benched cfq beelzabub1? Apr 09 17:51:16 eeeeeeveryone says it "should" be faster but no-one I have talked to has yet benched ;-) Apr 09 17:51:31 I know cfq is great for platters but I'm dubious about seeks on flash Apr 09 17:51:44 not personally - but people here have Apr 09 17:51:50 it's not about seeks Apr 09 17:51:54 it's about write performance Apr 09 17:52:20 sorry, yes Apr 09 17:52:26 cfq apparently is about the same as noop for reads on flash & much faster writes Apr 09 17:52:44 if you find that this isn't the case, let me know because we'll need to revisit that then Apr 09 17:52:54 I compiled my second kernel with all the schedulers so the people who were muttering (PuffTheMagic that would be you) can bench Apr 09 17:54:23 yeah - i read that forum thread yesterday. it really devolved from the technical discussion i was hoping for Apr 09 17:54:41 *snigger* Apr 09 17:54:42 just a tad Apr 09 17:55:02 users whingeing on a forum for dev and hackers that alpha code was being posted Apr 09 17:55:04 *roll eyes* Apr 09 17:55:34 sometimes I think sturgeon was too much of an optimist Apr 09 17:55:47 who's that? Apr 09 17:55:51 brb Apr 09 17:56:06 sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap Apr 09 17:57:45 lol Apr 09 17:58:52 ok, just compiling bonnie++ now Apr 09 18:00:07 rebooting... Apr 09 18:00:50 sbromwich - are you getting my private IM? Apr 09 18:00:53 do you want any special settings, freq locked to 500, etc? Apr 09 18:01:06 shouldn't matter Apr 09 18:02:26 I think I'll lock it to 500 ffor consistency's sake Apr 09 18:03:01 ok pause for a minute guys Apr 09 18:03:07 today is a good day Apr 09 18:03:23 Apr 09 18:03:36 while the iphone is getting attention for it's "multitasking" our xorg video is now up on engadget Apr 09 18:03:45 to take a little light from it Apr 09 18:04:18 thanks for the great work guys Apr 09 18:05:50 yeah I really don't see how they can call it "multitasking"... from what I read multitasking only works if you're... Apple. Apr 09 18:08:10 yeah, it multitasks the way my old treo 650 did Apr 09 18:08:20 whatever - the unfortunate thing is that I think it'll be good enough for now. they might add it eventually & at every point the fanboys will agree that yes, Apple is coming to it late, but they're doing it right and no one can do better Apr 09 18:08:39 notifications still suck Apr 09 18:08:56 yes they do - that's actually something i don't get for iphone Apr 09 18:09:01 IMO that's no better than what they has in system 8/9 Apr 09 18:09:05 we do notifications better than anyone i'm aware of Apr 09 18:09:18 that's what is keeping me off iphone Apr 09 18:09:44 beelzabub1: android is second imho... 1. webOS 2. android Apr 09 18:10:07 maybe - i've only played around with it in passing. Apr 09 18:10:29 well, actually not maybe Apr 09 18:10:49 ok, benching Apr 09 18:11:04 palm-webos-device /test # bonnie\+\+ -d /test -s 500M -r 128 -x 2 -u nobody | tee /var/home/root/bonnie.cfq Apr 09 18:11:32 btw - if anyone gets a phoronix set up running, i'd be really interested in talking to you Apr 09 18:12:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy-YcGNyJds not bad not bad Apr 09 18:12:27 android notifications ^ Apr 09 18:13:27 i just don't like the intrusivenss Apr 09 18:13:42 non-transient notifications still take over the UI Apr 09 18:13:51 beelzabub1: but it's better than iphone :P Apr 09 18:14:13 that looks awfully fiddly Apr 09 18:14:56 yup Apr 09 18:15:26 hmm... I think 500 meg might have been a touch too much Apr 09 18:15:42 i'm actually not convinced that iphone is the best phone out there right now, but i'm biased obviously Apr 09 18:16:17 I find them annoyingly sluggish Apr 09 18:16:39 I think we're now in a world of both "smartphones" and "dumb-smartphones" Apr 09 18:16:45 *grin* Apr 09 18:17:01 I think the iPhone started out as a smartphone, but has kind of fallen back Apr 09 18:17:23 it looks nice Apr 09 18:17:32 so long as all you want to do is press the power button Apr 09 18:17:33 iphone is a gaming machine ;D Apr 09 18:17:36 beyond that... nuh. Apr 09 18:17:45 hrm .. RIM just bought QNX Apr 09 18:17:47 that is interesting Apr 09 18:17:50 beelzabub1: I'm sorry, I believe I saw you mentioned you were disappointed because a P|C thread did not contain technical conversation.. in the future, I suggest you have no expectations. Apr 09 18:18:40 bpadalino: RIM needs QNX. it's a perfect fit. Apr 09 18:18:42 ghost_of_zsoc: I found SHOUTING and randomizing bold/italic/underline did the trick for keeping the numpties away Apr 09 18:19:08 we use QNX a lot here .. so i am just wondering how that will change things for us Apr 09 18:19:39 my ex went to work for RIM tech support here in halifax... she went through all the training, got promoted to higher levels of training because she was technical, then when she got on the phones she managed 3 days before quitting Apr 09 18:19:55 ouch Apr 09 18:20:27 i never used RIM Apr 09 18:20:30 apparently the managers march up and down the rows and are very strict about making sure the workers are constantly on the phone... very nasty atmosphere to work in Apr 09 18:21:03 sbromwich: oh that sucks Apr 09 18:21:13 sbromwich: i wanna work at palm so I can irc while working ;D Apr 09 18:21:20 *grin* Apr 09 18:21:22 oh I already do that... :D Apr 09 18:21:38 ditto Apr 09 18:21:41 sbromwich: I just stay away from PC as much as possible. Unfortunately it's necessary for certain user-forward tasks/annoucements Apr 09 18:21:46 plus I run the irc server at work Apr 09 18:22:21 ghost_of_zsoc: I'm finding that out, I was under the misimpression that a developer/hacker forum was for developers/hackers. Apr 09 18:22:42 now I'm at the point where I'm just feeding the trolls tempting dishes spiked with broken glass Apr 09 18:28:59 is there any info on how to fix stucked power button on pre? Apr 09 18:29:15 Ok who killed forums.precentral.net for me. Anyone Else getting database error? Apr 09 18:29:46 spectre686: in a cases like that you should always make a copy of precentral forum on a floppy Apr 09 18:30:03 HAHA Touche Apr 09 18:30:31 [; Apr 09 18:31:07 sbromwich - what do you work as? Apr 09 18:31:53 spectre686: http://twitter.com/precentral/statuses/11894637782 here Apr 09 18:32:23 Well that answers my question. Thanks. Apr 09 18:33:02 anyway just in case u should still make backups to floppy Apr 09 18:33:12 beelzabub1: currently? Apr 09 18:33:18 yeah Apr 09 18:33:28 I'm senior unix sysadmin running the big iron for the local health authority Apr 09 18:33:36 in a prior life I was sbromwich@usr.co.uk Apr 09 18:34:07 on the off chance that there's anyone from palm from 1996 or so ;-) Apr 09 18:34:34 lemketron might have been around that long Apr 09 18:34:47 I was one of the R&D guys working on validation for localistion for the original palm 5000 for the UK Apr 09 18:35:06 dave widdup would probably be the guy everyone remembers Apr 09 18:35:21 I was the guy who bitched about the calculator not working right Apr 09 18:35:27 [; Apr 09 18:35:59 and in yet another life I was sbromwich@novell.com but I doubt if there's many flanders here Apr 09 18:37:10 other than that I'm one of those people who have bummed around in the tech industry for 25 years trying to decide what to do when they grow up ;-) Apr 09 18:39:38 growing up is overrated Apr 09 18:40:31 yeah Apr 09 18:40:43 I finally decided late last year what I wanted to be when I grow up Apr 09 18:40:48 retired. Apr 09 18:41:06 where is ur post about disabling syslogging? i can't find it Apr 09 18:41:07 that's the dream isn't it Apr 09 18:41:26 sec, let me take a shufti Apr 09 18:41:31 kk Apr 09 18:41:36 i would love some confirmation about the impact turning of syslog might have Apr 09 18:41:48 sbromwich: so basically u just shut down syslogd? Apr 09 18:41:52 there might be something we can improve there if it's worth spending the effort Apr 09 18:42:32 sbromwich: or u were talking about modifing your fstab for /var and /var/log ? :> Apr 09 18:42:47 syslog and fstab Apr 09 18:43:02 I bodged a perl script but it's flaky on fstab so that's best done by hand Apr 09 18:43:08 let me check where I put that Apr 09 18:43:37 perl.... Apr 09 18:43:41 http://www.fop.ns.ca/pre/tnb.pl Apr 09 18:44:00 * en0x does: lynx --dump http://www.fop.ns.ca/pre/tnb.pl Apr 09 18:44:04 it's all relatively straightforward and you can see what I'm doing just by reading what I tell the user Apr 09 18:45:07 would it be copyright infringment if an app went and scraped stories from a website, as long as the story is not hosted on MY server? Apr 09 18:45:26 don't see why Apr 09 18:45:31 you're basically just being a browser Apr 09 18:45:39 ok Apr 09 18:45:48 and as long as you don't claim copyright yourself it's fine Apr 09 18:46:00 $pler = `grep ^File= /etc/PmLog.conf | grep -v /dev/null`; Apr 09 18:46:03 i love this line ;D Apr 09 18:46:28 I mean... if they didn't want the story on the web they wouldn't have put it up there ;-) Apr 09 18:46:48 yeah, that's to catch if someone only enables one or two File=/dev/null and then decides to do the whole lot later Apr 09 18:47:15 and it also means the entry can be "saved" by adding # /dev/null to the end of the line Apr 09 18:47:23 i never was perl fan anyway Apr 09 18:47:25 my code tends to be a bit belt and braces ;-) Apr 09 18:47:38 I like it for quick and dirty apps Apr 09 18:47:51 wouldn't want to write a full web app or something in it though Apr 09 18:48:02 python > perl Apr 09 18:48:02 ;D Apr 09 18:48:06 "duct tape of the internet" is definitely the best description for it Apr 09 18:48:08 let the flame begin :D Apr 09 18:48:30 I don't like languages that use whitespace as part of the coding, that's what turned me off about python Apr 09 18:48:45 I code to *my* standards TYVM Apr 09 18:49:17 well you can put a cat on your keyboard and write the output as a file then do: perl yourfile Apr 09 18:49:20 and it will run :D Apr 09 18:49:33 *grin* Apr 09 18:49:43 I like to think my code is relatively legible Apr 09 18:50:08 although I will admit to being lazy in that script and just backticking all over the place Apr 09 18:50:23 cool with me Apr 09 18:50:33 i just want to see what it does so I will do by hand Apr 09 18:50:56 yeah, I'd recommend doing it by hand tbh... it's not really a well tested script ;-) Apr 09 18:51:59 [; Apr 09 18:52:23 * en0x is running browser in browser Apr 09 18:52:47 * sbromwich is running bonnie++ Apr 09 18:53:04 which equals to: "i'm browsing web on my palm pre" Apr 09 18:53:05 :D Apr 09 18:53:14 heh Apr 09 18:53:43 hehehe Apr 09 18:57:09 ok Apr 09 18:57:35 so have the cfq vs noop bonnie++ results finished yet? Apr 09 19:03:10 nup Apr 09 19:03:17 cfq is done, deadline is running Apr 09 19:03:51 awesome - thanks for putting in the work Apr 09 19:04:09 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/bonnie.txt Apr 09 19:04:11 so far Apr 09 19:04:44 well, I was irritated by certain other people handwaving without having actually benched, so I'd like to have numbers to prove it myself either way Apr 09 19:04:55 and since I compiled a kernel with them all in... may as well use it Apr 09 19:05:10 there is of course a margin of error since this is a live system, lunasysmgr running, etc Apr 09 19:06:41 just updated with deadline output Apr 09 19:07:14 anticipatory running now Apr 09 19:07:21 dtzWill: did phil ever upload video Apr 09 19:09:29 sbromwich: I've been here since '96 and did the (EFIGS localizations for Palm OS 2.0) Apr 09 19:09:47 oops, dropped a paren in the wrong spot but you get the idea. Apr 09 19:10:03 ahhh... did you talk to the USR R&D folks much? Apr 09 19:10:28 my US contact was... jeez I can't remember her name but we called her the jewish princess Apr 09 19:10:35 We were all USR at the time. :-) Apr 09 19:10:38 *nod* Apr 09 19:10:44 heh hi steve, ltns Apr 09 19:11:03 then 3Com... man, talk about opening up old wounds... Apr 09 19:11:16 you worked at USR, mikewx? Apr 09 19:11:39 yeah, I left and emigrated to canada about 2 weeks before the 3com deal finalised Apr 09 19:11:41 no, i worked for handera, did contracting for palm (and handspring and ti, etc) Apr 09 19:11:49 oh, hey! Apr 09 19:11:49 ahhhh Apr 09 19:11:53 I was mostly modems Apr 09 19:11:55 bonnie is shit@ Apr 09 19:12:09 worked with jean francois and those guys Apr 09 19:12:38 PuffTheMagic: put up or shut up then, I have compiled the kernel with all schedulers so *you* can test with what *you* think as a valid benchmark. Apr 09 19:12:49 hey PuffTheMagic, you do the work then Apr 09 19:13:02 and i'm seriously thinkin I need to get an aceeca. can't give up the old :) Apr 09 19:13:28 hmm Apr 09 19:13:47 beelzabub1: i've done this on like many platforms/cpu archs over the years Apr 09 19:13:52 the results are always the same Apr 09 19:14:07 PuffTheMagic: you *do* realise the kernel is changing over time? Apr 09 19:14:20 yeah i do Apr 09 19:14:58 PuffTheMagic: so, when you bench it with whatever benchmarks you deem appropriate, I will be fascinated to know your results. Apr 09 19:15:20 too bad i am not facinated enough to redo that work Apr 09 19:15:20 Jack87: yep, check p|c front page :) Apr 09 19:15:28 PuffTheMagic: As I told you yesterday, I am trying to optimise the phone for *my* workload, which may not necessarily (and probably does not) match anyone else's. Apr 09 19:15:55 PuffTheMagic: then don't bitch at people who are willing to do the work. Apr 09 19:16:23 i havent bitched Apr 09 19:16:28 nor told u not do anything Apr 09 19:16:48 "+PuffTheMagic | bonnie is shit@" looks like a bitch to me. Apr 09 19:16:50 dtzWill: oh shit there it is.. i dunno how i missed it Apr 09 19:16:57 im just stating that there is no benchmark or group of benchmarks that capture what u are trying to measure Apr 09 19:16:59 completely lacking in any supporting facts. Apr 09 19:17:04 so any conclusions u make are not valid Apr 09 19:17:28 so... you are saying I shoudln't use a scheduler at all because they can't be tested? Apr 09 19:17:50 u can test is for 1 category.... Apr 09 19:17:56 thoughrough put Apr 09 19:17:59 or context switches Apr 09 19:18:08 but u cant combine them in a way that is no subjective Apr 09 19:18:15 so... Apr 09 19:18:22 it lacks external validity Apr 09 19:18:22 off to lunch - be back later Apr 09 19:18:50 wow - what a terrible statement Apr 09 19:19:00 of course there can be benchmarks that capture what you want Apr 09 19:19:08 if there aren't, then you're not doing engineering Apr 09 19:19:09 no they dont Apr 09 19:19:19 PuffTheMagic: I don't believe you understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Apr 09 19:19:28 what does it mean for there to be X throughput and Y latency Apr 09 19:19:34 sbromwich: hahaha Apr 09 19:19:44 i dont think u understand threats to validity Apr 09 19:19:49 dtzWill: when xserver is runnong on a stock pre wont it run at 600MHz Apr 09 19:20:17 PuffTheMagic: I don't think you read what I wrote mere minute ago about the validity. Apr 09 19:20:21 +sa Apr 09 19:21:27 sbromwich: just cause u measure throughput, context switches, mem usage, etc... all thse quantitative measures, so what.... what do all those measures mean together? Apr 09 19:21:30 rwhitby: you should add youtube channel to the topic of this IRC channel Apr 09 19:21:37 what how do u define what is "best" Apr 09 19:21:48 quanititatively Apr 09 19:22:02 u just cant Apr 09 19:22:31 i bet you cant even explain to me what you are using for you judgements on why what u pick is better Apr 09 19:23:28 hey mikewx: thinking about one of these? http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/6511/aceeca-pda32-pictured-and-detailed/ Apr 09 19:23:42 PuffTheMagic: you definitely don't understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Apr 09 19:23:49 I am not trying to define "best". Apr 09 19:24:16 hey guys, is it correct to say that there is no xterm build for the emulator? Apr 09 19:24:24 sbromwich: yeah... i suppose that I couldnt have gottent a masters or into a phd program with out knowing the scientific method Apr 09 19:24:31 what I am doing is defined by the phrase "trial and error", and the word "experimentation". Apr 09 19:25:02 sbromwich: sure u are doing trial and error, but u wont me able to draw any conclusions from your experiment Apr 09 19:25:08 Knowing the scientific method is not a pre-requisite to masters or phd programs. Apr 09 19:25:17 sbromwich: yeah pretty much it is Apr 09 19:25:29 point of amasters is to show u can do research Apr 09 19:25:42 Why would someone doing a phd in english lit be required to know the scientific method? Apr 09 19:25:55 to give an example. Apr 09 19:26:22 ok... phd in a science Apr 09 19:26:38 well, that is not what you said. Apr 09 19:26:39 Jack87: yeah I think it should be at 600mhz, never checked though Apr 09 19:26:51 PuffTheMagic: Are you starting to get my point about how you are handwaving yet? Apr 09 19:27:01 lemketron: yes Apr 09 19:27:07 sbromwich: im not handwaving Apr 09 19:27:15 dtzWill: thanks Apr 09 19:27:19 i've done the leg work on this Apr 09 19:27:21 lemketron: it doesn't hurt that they have one of my apps in the promo shot :) Apr 09 19:27:22 PuffTheMagic: show me your test results then.\ Apr 09 19:27:23 i just havent proved it do you Apr 09 19:27:26 shawalli: there is no xterm build (or x server) for the emulator, that is correct. Although neither is arm-dependent so I believe there could be Apr 09 19:27:28 * oil waves Apr 09 19:27:29 and i dont care to Apr 09 19:27:39 watching u waste your time is more fun Apr 09 19:27:46 in that case it is irrelevant Apr 09 19:27:55 OK, fine, I shall let you watch along Apr 09 19:28:37 * ghost_of_zsoc handwaves to oil Apr 09 19:28:52 dtzWill: ok good, i thought i was going crazy. I developed for the pre (apps-wise) last summer but havent really touched the development side since then. I was dusting off the cobwebs by trying to get X11 running on an emulator and it wasnt working. now i know why lol Apr 09 19:29:18 i love how when i asked bk for no tomatoes or onions on my whopper i got both Apr 09 19:29:20 thats awesome Apr 09 19:30:47 drive through? Apr 09 19:31:06 shawalli: depending how much time you have you could build the source for i686, I'd be happy to help if taht's something you feel like. absolutely no worries if not :) Apr 09 19:32:21 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/bonnie.txt updated with anticipatory scheduler Apr 09 19:33:44 dtzWill: what kind of background/experience/coding skills(languages, etc) would be necessary to work on something like that? Apr 09 19:35:01 shawalli: errr idk. hopefully not too much, but I'm not sure, and I' especially unsure how to capture the skills required :) Apr 09 19:36:49 shawalli: you shouldn't have to CODE anything, but building things would be required. familiarity with the WIDK+ or at least some linux stuff (make, etC) probably useful Apr 09 19:37:01 sorry I hadn't thought about an emulator build until right now :) Apr 09 19:37:15 oh the X build presently uses GLES for faster blitting, which wouldn't work on the emulator afaik Apr 09 19:39:10 dtzWill: i'm tempted to ask you how to install x on the pre and if it be worth starting a how-to (via command line only for now) or is it not quit ready for that yet Apr 09 19:40:02 Jack87: installing X is easy :D. it's on the testing feed, just click it :D Apr 09 19:40:07 Jack87: but running useful things inside it is another matter Apr 09 19:40:30 dtzWill: Right :-) Apr 09 19:41:14 dtzWill: is there a reason we can't use your existing X Server package for further development? WMs/apps? Apr 09 19:41:47 ghost_of_zsoc: absolutely not. in fact I already staged a numbed of relatively high-profile applications in the WIDK, just haven't gotten around to packaging them. Apr 09 19:41:50 ghost_of_zsoc: pidgin, rdesktop, etc Apr 09 19:41:53 ghost_of_zsoc: icewm, matchbox Apr 09 19:41:58 ..I don't remember what else Apr 09 19:42:11 ghost_of_zsoc: aren't you restructuring the WIDK? finish that :D Apr 09 19:43:39 dtzWill: high-profile ;) Apr 09 19:43:40 haha Apr 09 19:43:49 dtzWill: yeah right after I finish my service. and my app. and fix the 1.4.1.1 patches that everyone complains about Apr 09 19:43:57 ghost_of_zsoc: ummm Apr 09 19:43:58 ecls Apr 09 19:44:04 right ecls Apr 09 19:44:25 when do I get your patches and that cross_config file? :p Apr 09 19:44:32 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 09 19:44:46 walk on by Apr 09 19:44:52 the place you used to live Apr 09 19:44:57 phil_bw: just got around to viewing your video... awesomeness Apr 09 19:44:57 welcome phil_bw! Apr 09 19:45:05 so dtzWill: you see your handywork all over the internet..? Apr 09 19:45:18 PuffTheMagic: sorry by high-profile i clearly meant "ooooooo"-factor and "Zomg"-ness Apr 09 19:45:38 even if, for example, pidgin isn't particularly useful given.. we already have a libpurple based setup, other than supporting misc other protocols Apr 09 19:45:55 dtzWill: i know what u mean Apr 09 19:45:56 dtzWill: were you ever able to try setting that pointer to null to see if it stopped that issue ? Apr 09 19:45:59 but the usability cost may or may not be worth it. but it is surprisingly responsive and usable Apr 09 19:46:03 bpadalino|work: I was not, no Apr 09 19:46:10 alrighty - just checking :) Apr 09 19:46:40 null pointer errs ftw Apr 09 19:46:48 wirc is nice Apr 09 19:47:01 asmw: we know Apr 09 19:47:10 as in shiny nice Apr 09 19:48:07 phil_bw: I haven't checked recently, mostly woke up, went to class, came home and have been talking here. Apr 09 19:48:13 * dtzWill starts looking at the internet Apr 09 19:48:24 the only thing I miss is tapping nicks for whois/query Apr 09 19:48:47 dtzWill: start with engadget Apr 09 19:48:50 dtzWil, try engadget, gizmodo, etc, shouldn't be hard to find Apr 09 19:49:07 asmw: why can't you do that? Apr 09 19:49:22 should that work? Apr 09 19:49:34 asmw: click the symbol at the top that shows how many people are in the chan, click the name you want Apr 09 19:49:53 well sure :) Apr 09 19:50:00 that I know Apr 09 19:50:19 tapping of nicks in the chat window is already on the feature list Apr 09 19:50:37 ... Apr 09 19:50:43 right underneath the spiderwebs Apr 09 19:51:02 spiderwebs? Apr 09 19:51:37 it was a joke about how long its been since i wrote code for wirc Apr 09 19:51:45 Wow congrats to all the people working on X11 Apr 09 19:52:04 I find it ironic that webos-internals wiki doesn't play nice with the webos browser... Apr 09 19:52:30 phil_bw: we need to get an abiword video :D Apr 09 19:52:35 phil_bw: but that's not a priority, news already broke Apr 09 19:52:48 asmw_wirc could that be because of the wiki software? Apr 09 19:52:51 phil_bw: btw I definitely checked my logs and definitely told you to try abiword back when you were using OO haha. mabye you missed it though xD Apr 09 19:52:58 (I was reading logs for other reasons) Apr 09 19:52:59 dtzWill: I want to polish up fvwm first Apr 09 19:53:01 oli: thanks anyway, wirc still rocks the way it is now Apr 09 19:53:05 phil_bw: sounds good Apr 09 19:53:19 phil_bw: you see your PRE all over the internet? :) Apr 09 19:53:31 dtzWill, no I remember now, I just didn't realize abiword was an actual doc editor, I thought it used it's own format Apr 09 19:53:35 dtzWill great job on x11 Apr 09 19:53:44 major: probably. it's not unusable, only... non optimal Apr 09 19:53:56 dtzWill, my Pre with your fine software on it :) Apr 09 19:54:26 Major: ty Apr 09 19:54:32 phil_bw: heh. well even contributes something :) Apr 09 19:54:45 asmw_wirc Yeah i wonder if they have the mobile module added? Apr 09 19:55:19 is the webos browser easily identified with it's browser string? Apr 09 19:55:48 if any of you use abiword regularly do you know if there's any way to enable some sort of word wrap instead of horiz scroll bars? Apr 09 19:56:17 asmw_wirc should be but of course Mediawiki has issues with the Iphoney and most other mobile browsers Apr 09 19:57:04 I am just reading about mobileskin for mediawiki Apr 09 19:57:50 they should release a new pre with 'fat-finger-keyboard'... I'd buy one Apr 09 19:58:39 phil_bw is it using GD? Apr 09 19:58:40 * Jack87 likes xterm a lot! Apr 09 19:59:21 phil_bw: we might want to look into modifying gtk settings to make buttons/etc higher Apr 09 19:59:30 Major I honestly am not sure Apr 09 19:59:31 phil_bw: I wonder if just hacking the DPI would do enough for us Apr 09 19:59:40 good night webos people Apr 09 19:59:54 why is xterm still in testing feed? what more is being done on it (not asking to remove from testing feed just wondering what further work is going to go in) Apr 09 19:59:58 asmw_wirc Yeah I was looking at that also. Wouldn't be hard to add a couple of things to ident webos and route it to the mobile skin Apr 09 20:00:14 dtzWill, openoffice has a "webview" feature which word wraps but keeps formatting. Abiwords does not word wrap Apr 09 20:00:29 dtwill: i just google the wor wrapping and the general online consensus is that is does word wrap Apr 09 20:00:43 "If you are looking for a more graphical editor, I believe Abiword has some decent word wrap features as well." Apr 09 20:01:10 phil_bw: ^^^ what shawalli said :) Apr 09 20:01:23 Jack87: uh it's in the testing feed.... because I never moved it to the main feed. Apr 09 20:01:23 It looks like it still throws in a horiz scrol bar when it's that small though Apr 09 20:01:33 Shawalli it does word wrap but I think they are trying to force the Hoz bar to go away Apr 09 20:01:41 oooh gotcha Apr 09 20:01:49 dtzWill: that explains it... does it have a wiki page? Apr 09 20:02:09 Jack87: although there's a recent bug that was discovered--control works, but not control+x/c/v.. haven't figured out why yet Apr 09 20:02:18 Jack87: so after I fix that I might push it to main, idk Apr 09 20:03:00 dtzwill could it be that WebOS locks those command to the OS ? Apr 09 20:03:06 dtzWill: i dunno any of the not so obvious things but id like to see a wiki if one is and maybe provide some control input ideas? Apr 09 20:03:13 I really like gizmodo's write-up haha Apr 09 20:03:23 engagdet seems to really not like the pre :) Apr 09 20:03:32 raw data for all 4 schedulers on a live system at www.fop.ns.ca/pre/bonnie.txt Apr 09 20:03:59 dtzwill i really do think that engadget is more pro Apple Apr 09 20:04:16 sbromwich: executive summary? :D Apr 09 20:04:36 executive summary: I haven't done any analysis on it yet. Apr 09 20:04:38 no idea. Apr 09 20:04:48 (I could go figure out what those mean, but you seem to have a better idea of the related pieces, not trying to be lazy :)) Apr 09 20:04:52 ah okay Apr 09 20:05:06 Major: ....oh. that is a very interesting idea that I did not consider. Apr 09 20:05:17 Major: what's gesture+x? Apr 09 20:06:02 Jack87: sorry I'm having too many conversations :D didn't mean to ignore. wiki is here: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:X Apr 09 20:06:09 major: i actually turned apple off in my news feeds for engadg and giz because 80% of my feed was clogged with ipad glorification crap Apr 09 20:06:27 dtzwill honestly I'm not down with ALL the hotkeys Apr 09 20:06:35 dtzWill: thanks :) i am looking for xterm wiki Apr 09 20:07:04 Shawalli that is a great idea that i need to implement. This is one family that does not own ANY apple products.. not even ipods Apr 09 20:07:16 Jack87: there is none. xterm just runs inside the X, keybindings for X are keybindings for xterm Apr 09 20:07:27 roger that Apr 09 20:07:47 Major: In all seriousness, zero percent mocking or attidue at all, if you can help design a better set of bindings I'm all ears Apr 09 20:07:48 dtzWill: how about control modes... just like on quake... one for keybindings such as arrow keys and junk and the other for text input Apr 09 20:08:06 Major: it's hard :( Apr 09 20:08:32 dtzwill I found what gesture + x is Cut text. Apr 09 20:09:12 dtzWill: copy/paste/cut single press keys within one mode (i would imagine since its sdl it shouldnt be too different then what you did in quake?) Apr 09 20:09:20 dtzwill I would attempt to but I Left *nix back in 98 when i was using freebsd like 3 and i'm just getting back into it using ubuntu Apr 09 20:09:22 Major: well then that really sounds like that's it. bugger, gesture as a modifier was a very nice hack Apr 09 20:09:33 Jack87: unfortunately the keybinding is done.... it's difficult Apr 09 20:09:42 major: i have a macbook and an ipod touch, but my policy on apple is to only buy a product if a) i can justify its usefulness and b) if its up to my quality standards...i had an iriver for years before i thought the ipod was "up to par" Apr 09 20:09:58 major: although with os 4.0 it might have fallen back below par Apr 09 20:10:02 hey all..sorry to be a pain, but do I install my window manager inside the debian chroot? my x still loads to a grey screen w. just the cursor Apr 09 20:10:02 Major: well I'm not saying implementing it necessarily I mean even just designing the control scheme. Apr 09 20:10:32 Major: we don't have a full keyboard on the device and we.. need to pretend we do, with design decisions made towards usability for the common case Apr 09 20:10:49 shawalli yeah i nderstand what you mean but I'm more open source and what most everyone else uses LOL Apr 09 20:11:29 dtzwill BTW since it's using debian would this work for a ubuntu system? Apr 09 20:11:30 dtzWill: i am a little confused. there is room for new control scheme and bindings or not? Apr 09 20:11:40 and if so how do I connect x server to it Apr 09 20:11:53 Hi all. Is there anyway to either delete and start clean, or force an error check or rebuild the messaging database? I have one contact that has 19 blank messages that I can't delete and always are at the bottom of the list. It also has problems displaying my outgoing messages. Apr 09 20:12:00 Major: it's just X. ANY app you can run would work just fine Apr 09 20:12:27 Major: I don't see why you couldn't build an ubuntu chroot, or any linux distro chroot really Apr 09 20:12:33 dtzwill so let me get this strtaight you want me to try to come up with a key scheme... like gesture+? = this Apr 09 20:12:50 Major: or x-forward your apps from your linux (ubuntu or whichever), all that works just dandy Apr 09 20:13:11 Major: I'm not requesting YOU do anything, but that would be useful for someone to do certainly, if you're feeling that's something you can/would like to do Apr 09 20:13:20 dtzwill x-forward is something i have never attempted to do as i'm just getting back into it Apr 09 20:13:54 gelato: it's not that I/we are ignoring you as much as we don't have a good tutorial put in place, because we're busy working on something that you can click and install and not have to worry about a complicated tutorial Apr 09 20:14:05 dtzwill but it does sound like i could darn well try this weekend. (x-forward) Apr 09 20:14:36 gelato: http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/240926-x-server-pre.html#post2370957 explains what I mean Apr 09 20:14:41 dtzwill Yes I will look into key bindings at least get ideas that I can throw your way. Apr 09 20:14:49 Major: have it it, it definitely works :) Apr 09 20:15:04 dtzwill and Sorry I shouldn't have used the words "you want me" Apr 09 20:15:25 Major: oh no worries at all, just I don't want anyone to think I'm the leader of anything haha :) Apr 09 20:15:35 * dtzWill delegates that role to rwhitby :) Apr 09 20:15:57 dtzwill you might not want someone to think it but I can bet you many have Apr 09 20:15:58 dtzwill: nah I know that I just figured I'd ask in case anyone was bored..ive already read the forum thanks though Apr 09 20:17:01 seems precentral forums are having a bad hair day Apr 09 20:17:20 shave it off Apr 09 20:17:32 The internals patch feed is 404ing too Apr 09 20:17:36 idontwan2know yes they are Apr 09 20:17:54 dtzWill: are you able to utilize multiple keyboard modes or not? I have a few ideas i can throw your way but i dont want to map out sets of keys just to find out its not possible Apr 09 20:18:02 the tubes are under attack!! Apr 09 20:18:18 idontwan2know. I think it started happening around the time the x11 news started Apr 09 20:18:36 Jack87: I don't know. I haven't poked at enough of xkb enough to decide, I think so? But I simply don't know. WORST case we can hardcode it, but using xkbcomp was a lot cleaner and more transparent Apr 09 20:19:02 dtzwill no offense but here is some good info on Pre cheatsheet wise http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/palm-pre-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html Apr 09 20:19:10 god...watching the creepy lady ads on youtube Apr 09 20:19:33 The monks one was quite good, then it just went downhill so fast. Apr 09 20:19:40 dtzWill: if the chance is there or you dont know then its fine ill come up with stuff.. but i didnt want to throw out stuff you had already tested :) Apr 09 20:19:42 idontwan2know RUN Apr 09 20:19:51 Major: heh, ty. I know all of those.. except for the copy/patse ones. guess I'm a bad pre owner :) Apr 09 20:19:54 RTFM and whatnot :D Apr 09 20:19:59 LOL Apr 09 20:20:03 Jack87: yeah, sorry. at this point not sure Apr 09 20:20:16 alright I got to scurry off to a meeting, glhf all Apr 09 20:20:19 The reincarnation and deja vu ones are totally "WTF?" Apr 09 20:20:45 idontwan2know just drop the mouse and run. Save yourself Apr 09 20:21:12 Alright...enough of that Apr 09 20:21:28 lol Apr 09 20:22:09 dont be sorry not sure is cool.. i just didnt want to bug you with stuff you have done is all.... we do have a touch screen! perhaps a modifier key that can turn overlays on/off for keys such as arrows esc and maybe a few other handy stuff might be nice to have around with visual refrence Apr 09 20:23:40 dtzWill: Hope you saw that message haha i know your busy.. anyway like you said we need to pretend to have a full keyboard and if we can use the screen to help us pretend :) Apr 09 20:24:03 idontwan2know but you are right "glow" was awesome Apr 09 20:24:44 idontwan2know and the one that whats his name made for the pre Apr 09 20:25:04 that every tech blog picked up and then it blew up Apr 09 20:25:13 glow = flow Apr 09 20:25:14 and made it all the way to rubinsteins inbox Apr 09 20:25:22 I don't think that one is all that amazing, honestly Apr 09 20:25:42 It's impressive from a production quality standpoint, for an amateur Apr 09 20:25:44 but the artistice elements are so much better than crazy lady Apr 09 20:25:58 right, thats all i meant Apr 09 20:26:00 LOL we could: use xrandr to support multipple resolutions, say, not just 320x480 (and 480x320) but also.. 320x400, and put a virt keyboard or the likes there... and like a game (GLES, etC) (and unliked the js exisitng virtual keyboard) that could work well xD Apr 09 20:26:09 although running a virtual keyboard x app might be easier :P Apr 09 20:26:23 shawalli It had some great ideas and implementation but I think it fell a little flat. to me it showed what webOS could do but made it seem more like a magazine Apr 09 20:26:32 I just started reading the TamsPalm article on xorg on the Pre "webOS is based on a linux core - this means porting things like the X Server to the device is rather simple" Apr 09 20:26:48 I wonder of dtzWill would agree... Apr 09 20:26:53 I think the latest "Life moves fast. Don't miss a thing." one with the hot chick is a fantastic commercial. Apr 09 20:27:19 phil_bw everything is easy in theory Apr 09 20:27:29 i feel that if they demoed half of the stuff internals does in a commercial palm would get more sales Apr 09 20:27:35 phil_bw: simple in comparison to porting Xorg to iPhone Apr 09 20:27:39 heh Apr 09 20:28:10 shawalli to a geek and tech heads I agree but to the average user I think it would fly over there heads Apr 09 20:28:32 idontwan2know lol Apr 09 20:28:34 oh I didn't think of it as compared to the iphone. too bad the iphone isn't *nix based or it might be easy for them too /sarcasm Apr 09 20:28:56 it's all a matter of perspective Apr 09 20:30:34 The framework you guys are building could eventually make it so that porting linux apps really is simple in practice. Apr 09 20:31:23 oh getting them is already easy with the debain setup, it's using them that'll be the challenge Apr 09 20:32:04 Phil_bw basically a rework of the button would need to be done correct? Apr 09 20:32:14 button = buttons Apr 09 20:32:57 Right...developing a fairly standard way of interacting with the applications would be the big issue. Apr 09 20:33:10 Major, yes, I'm in the process of reworking the window elements such as task bars, scroll bars, etc. Anything hard coded would need to be modified at the source and released in it's own package. Apr 09 20:33:20 Since they obviously aren't designed to be used on a 3.1 inch touchscreen Apr 09 20:34:52 phil_bw sounds like mostly work that would need to be done from the dev's perspective Apr 09 20:36:24 Major: that depends. some apps would work just fine with no source changes just window element changes Apr 09 20:36:48 phil_bw so mostly a app by app basis Apr 09 20:37:00 wow engadget is at it again http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/palms-jon-rubinstein-i-think-we-have-a-better-product-than-dr/ Apr 09 20:37:26 Major: yes Apr 09 20:37:28 what's that? Apr 09 20:37:39 hey so how is plam responding to multitasking os 4.0? Apr 09 20:37:46 (for the iFale) Apr 09 20:38:12 The JR interview that he did with Fortune but by my readings it's got a slant to it... maybe i'm just jaded Apr 09 20:38:31 shades what multitasking? Apr 09 20:38:49 shades I don't see it as actually multitasking Apr 09 20:38:50 ShadeS: mass confusion and panic. engineers are roaming the halls tearing their hair out and the executives are lining up to jump off the roof Apr 09 20:38:53 * oil doesn't think it needs a response Apr 09 20:39:04 beyond: 'welcome to 1990' Apr 09 20:39:38 folders and multitasking? Apr 09 20:39:40 no way! Apr 09 20:39:42 lol Apr 09 20:40:10 I find it ironic that Apple's multitasking solution is essentially the same way Windows 3.1 did it. Apr 09 20:40:25 and folders! Apr 09 20:40:29 and ads! Apr 09 20:40:35 Days of future past. Apr 09 20:40:38 lol Apr 09 20:40:40 i love how they touted folders as an advancement Apr 09 20:40:48 idontwan2know: lol really Apr 09 20:40:51 when the iphone model is supposed to be anti-folder organization Apr 09 20:40:52 * oil waits for patch that does it for webos Apr 09 20:41:04 dtzWill: For geastures+? how about using u,i,o,p, Apr 09 20:41:05 engadget just posted on the cnn money interview. i'm reading the android fanboy posts. Apr 09 20:41:05 i mean really, how hard can it be Apr 09 20:41:28 oil: not hard at all, I'm guessing...it's just such a non-idea that nobody ever tried Apr 09 20:41:30 well guys, im out, later Apr 09 20:42:48 dtzWill: if you think about it z,x,c,v are standard but while z,x,c,v and under where you would kinda have your finger on the geasture u,i,o,p are out to the opposite side and thumb accessible Apr 09 20:43:09 idontwan2know: exactly. nobody tried it, because they've been offering unlimited service/per month for since the begining of the internet and are now realizing they're fucked becaues people are actually using a large chunk of that promised (but not truely available) unlimited pipe Apr 09 20:50:05 phil_bw since it seems that dtzwill is not around can you forward my suggestion? Apr 09 20:50:45 Major: I shall try to remember, though he'll probably see what you wrote anyway Apr 09 20:50:57 oh ok if not i'll be back monday Apr 09 20:51:15 later man Apr 09 20:51:23 I'm actually off myself Apr 09 20:51:30 * phil_bw wanders off Apr 09 20:51:32 jeez, everyone is leaving Apr 09 20:51:48 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/bonnie_palmos.ods Apr 09 20:51:56 some *very* surprising results to me in there. Apr 09 20:52:08 I will not, of course, spoil the surprise. Apr 09 20:52:38 * oil doesn't fall for sbromwich's redirect to goatse Apr 09 20:53:21 damn Apr 09 20:53:28 and I was getting so hopeful Apr 09 20:53:42 (tubgirl, ackcheloi) Apr 09 20:55:35 what file format is ods ? Apr 09 20:55:39 openoffice Apr 09 20:55:48 spreadsheet Apr 09 20:57:20 local machine is too busy computing silly bits to apparently care about talking to me Apr 09 20:57:23 :( Apr 09 20:57:42 your local machine or my local machine? Apr 09 20:57:49 mine Apr 09 20:57:53 ah ok Apr 09 20:57:55 too many FPGA's building :( Apr 09 20:58:02 that's pretty much the ultimate in rejection, isn't it? Apr 09 20:58:14 please accept my commiserations then, I can lend you a PIII 600 if it would help? ;-) Apr 09 20:59:33 when did 2GB of memory become too small to run stuff ? Apr 09 20:59:42 about 3 years ago Apr 09 20:59:51 i believe it was 4 pm on a wednesday Apr 09 21:00:47 sigh :( Apr 09 21:04:19 apparently i have enough memory and cycles for this ssh session .. but not much else Apr 09 21:04:32 sbromwich: so what does the spreadsheet tell us? (sorry for asking to spoil the goods) Apr 09 21:06:35 heh Apr 09 21:06:39 I am doing some analysis now Apr 09 21:07:11 big surprise I found was anticipatory has seeks an order of magnitude faster than the worst scheduler Apr 09 21:08:19 very interesting Apr 09 21:10:51 Can anyone help me? I'm having some database problems with messaging. Apr 09 21:13:58 is there any word on when restore might be supported in Save/Restore? Apr 09 21:15:05 message restoration is not a simple process Apr 09 21:15:41 Its incorporated into the full .db file isn't it? Apr 09 21:16:41 www.fop.ns.ca/bonnie_palmos.ods Apr 09 21:16:55 somewhat arbitrary, but a rather surprising result Apr 09 21:17:21 if you're willing to burn CPU, anticipatory appears to be the best scheduler based on the bonnie++ synthetic benchmarks. Apr 09 21:17:44 (updated with more analysis, too) Apr 09 21:24:05 hahahahahaha Apr 09 21:24:08 AIO ftw Apr 09 21:24:28 http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=applications/preware.git;a=commit;h=10e6901b12c2791b447e544deba9d9616747cc81 Apr 09 21:24:29 :) Apr 09 21:27:58 oil: nice Apr 09 21:28:02 lol Apr 09 22:11:25 sbromwich: ping Apr 09 22:12:45 pong Apr 09 22:13:28 did i read something that anticipatory sched was faster? Apr 09 22:13:54 sometimes Apr 09 22:14:02 www.fop.ns.ca/bonnie_palmos.ods Apr 09 22:14:35 take it with a pinch of salt, but it looks like anticipatory might be better for overclocked phones with cpu to spare. Apr 09 22:15:11 i played with a long time ago setting the block size for the flash... sometime I would get better results. Apr 09 22:15:30 rwhitby frowned at me for that change :) Apr 09 22:15:35 *grin* Apr 09 22:15:50 this was just straightforward bonnie runs Apr 09 22:16:08 not in single user mode though so not entirely valid, but interesting results nevertheless Apr 09 22:16:12 Android uses anticipatroy Apr 09 22:16:58 interesting... what sort of clock speeds do they run at, do you know? Apr 09 22:17:52 which device? I have a Hero and it only runs 528 max. Droid is overclocked to 1.1gig Apr 09 22:18:22 just as a random selection Apr 09 22:18:42 is anticipatory the default across the board or do manufacturers get to set it themselves? Apr 09 22:19:48 for the HTC devices they seem to be anticipatory. havent noticed the droid. i guess i can look at google's AOSP code on their site to see what their default is. Apr 09 22:20:29 oh, don't worry, I was just vaguely curious, as is my wont ;-) Apr 09 22:22:16 hello? Apr 09 22:22:34 anyone here? Apr 09 22:23:05 nup Apr 09 22:24:14 would you be able to answer a question? Apr 09 22:24:39 i can answer that one question: yes Apr 09 22:24:47 yes Apr 09 22:24:48 there Apr 09 22:24:52 ask the question - don't ask if you can ask a question :) Apr 09 22:25:03 you got 2 answers for the price of 1! Apr 09 22:25:13 & commentary Apr 09 22:25:13 can i ask a question about asking questions? Apr 09 22:25:25 no Apr 09 22:25:28 oh Apr 09 22:25:30 * Mousey stfu's Apr 09 22:25:34 meta questions cause recursive loops. Apr 09 22:25:46 not the way i answer them Apr 09 22:25:56 *grin* Apr 09 22:26:04 I am trying to download an app from Palms app catalog and it is telling me that I don't have enough room when I don't have anything loaded. Apr 09 22:26:51 what is the exact error message? Apr 09 22:27:33 sbromwich are you talking to me? Apr 09 22:27:40 dan94darling: yes Apr 09 22:28:30 it's bringing up an error that there is not enough memory and to delete files before downloading. Apr 09 22:28:37 dan94darling: I have read through most of the source for the palm apps and there are certain errors that give apparently identical messages that can be distinguished only by, for example, whether the word "please" is used. Apr 09 22:30:02 how do I use please in a question? Apr 09 22:31:11 dan94darling: the error message itself may use the word "please" Apr 09 22:31:26 dan94darling: which in itself might indicate which error it is Apr 09 22:32:12 are you being serious? Apr 09 22:32:47 yes. Apr 09 22:33:09 it says must delete Apr 09 22:33:37 ok, can you novaterm in? Apr 09 22:33:47 do a df and see if it lies or not. Apr 09 22:34:17 how do I novaterm in? Apr 09 22:34:30 with novaterm Apr 09 22:34:52 I think you might want to try #webos, this channel is for people working on the innards of the palm pre Apr 09 22:34:52 ok, how do I do that? Apr 09 22:35:23 install the sdk software from palm's site, if I recall correctly Apr 09 22:36:17 *blink* Apr 09 22:36:44 you scared him away Apr 09 22:36:45 sbromwich: that happens quite often, it's worse most of the time Apr 09 22:37:26 i like the ones when they come in, ask if anyone is here, say they have a problem that they can't solve, then immediately /quit Apr 09 22:38:03 *grin* Apr 09 22:38:40 I just answer the question I'm asked, it's up to the asker to work on google for explication IMO Apr 09 22:39:48 http://lmgtfy.com/ Apr 09 22:40:29 hah! Apr 09 22:40:34 nice, I hadn't seen that one before Apr 09 22:41:01 a little smack in the face for the user but it must be done :) Apr 09 22:41:12 *nod* Apr 09 22:41:59 oh with tinyurl for subtlety too, nice! Apr 09 22:42:04 hehe Apr 09 22:42:30 I might just make use of that once or twice Apr 09 22:42:36 or thrice Apr 09 22:42:40 or several hundred Apr 09 22:43:07 at least 100's Apr 09 22:43:22 *nod* Apr 09 22:43:48 oil's favourite Apr 09 22:44:00 I might possibly have mentioned this once or twice before but... I have little sympathy for users asking questions in a dev forum and complaining they get dev standard answers/postings. Apr 09 22:44:47 after a user says that they deserve a flame. Apr 09 22:45:26 I just start answering the exact question they asked, no matter how obviously it's not what they want to know. Apr 09 22:45:35 that always goes down well. Apr 09 22:45:55 lots of whining Apr 09 22:46:20 nothing like a whiny l-user Apr 09 22:46:22 * sbromwich is nobody's mother. Apr 09 22:50:21 * oil doesn't believe you Apr 09 22:50:57 * sbromwich exposes his genitalia in oil's general direction to demonstrate his lack of appropriate wibbly parts. Apr 09 22:51:28 * oil is instantly blinded Apr 09 22:52:00 * sbromwich smirks Apr 09 22:52:16 hi Apr 09 22:52:30 and to move vaguely back on topic... can I run X apps rootless on the pre? Apr 09 22:52:32 hi Apr 09 22:52:37 helluo Apr 09 22:52:39 i have there a problem Apr 09 22:52:39 what's a wibbly part Apr 09 22:52:45 me too. Apr 09 22:52:52 ^^ Apr 09 22:52:52 oil is being nasty to me. Apr 09 22:53:10 wibbly part = girly bits. Apr 09 22:53:12 oil should buy us all fruit Apr 09 22:53:20 no, i not really have a "problem" Apr 09 22:53:29 possibly suggestively shaped, at that Apr 09 22:53:35 sbromwich: i guess they do sort of wibble Apr 09 22:53:56 * zsoc sings, "when the wibble wills.. wibber in the wind.. the wind can wibble back.. " Apr 09 22:54:09 anyone know of good software for Windows to create/edit/copy a sqlite table? Apr 09 22:54:10 *grin* Apr 09 22:54:28 I'm not sure I know any good software for windows. Apr 09 22:54:28 oooh, guinness... that's what I could do with round about now. Apr 09 22:54:30 ahm... existing a pacht, that is disable the vibrationsby the clock? Apr 09 22:55:04 karotte_exe: just checking, am I correct english is not your first language? Apr 09 22:55:07 justinput's dev is tasking me to add a character database table to his Japanese input system Apr 09 22:55:09 I'm drinking a Smuttynose Porter, actually Apr 09 22:55:21 oh Guinness you are making me jealous. Apr 09 22:55:36 zsoc: ok, then what about Linux? Apr 09 22:55:41 a local microbrewery here has imperial stout to die for Apr 09 22:55:48 Kyusaku: sqliteman is ok Apr 09 22:55:52 a bit of a learning curve Apr 09 22:56:46 zsoc: I basically want to just clone a table, rename the clone and change the entries in the clone Apr 09 22:56:53 sbromwich: jep, english is not my nativ languange Apr 09 22:57:09 it should work Apr 09 22:57:15 because he needs a character database for katakana and gonna use the hiragana table as a primer Apr 09 22:57:33 karotte_exe: ok, just checking... you want a patch that will vibration depending on time of day? Apr 09 22:57:40 let me try that again Apr 09 22:57:46 karotte_exe: ok, just checking... you want a patch that will disable vibration depending on time of day? Apr 09 22:57:53 ahm... Apr 09 22:58:03 yes Apr 09 22:58:07 and no Apr 09 22:58:36 i have a rally god song to wake up, but the vibrations dertroy it! Apr 09 22:59:14 karotte_exe: are you using the palm clock for this? Apr 09 22:59:29 yes Apr 09 23:00:15 sorry for my english, and mistakes Apr 09 23:00:29 karotte_exe: I don't think there is a patch to do that, but if you try posting on the precentral.net forums someone will probably take you up on that as it sounds like a good idea Apr 09 23:00:37 karotte_exe: no problem Apr 09 23:00:41 ok Apr 09 23:00:47 i will do that Apr 09 23:01:09 ahm... a other question: Apr 09 23:01:23 my palm pre... Apr 09 23:01:25 karotte_exe: alternatively I think there are other clock applications in either preware or the palm catalogue that may be worth trying Apr 09 23:01:28 uh-huh? Apr 09 23:01:43 it have a manual defect Apr 09 23:01:49 how so? Apr 09 23:02:15 wait, i thinkt to find the english word for that Apr 09 23:02:25 sure, take your time Apr 09 23:02:42 karotte_exe: if you need help with specific words, try google.com/translate Apr 09 23:02:53 i try to describe it Apr 09 23:04:17 all was normal, i slide on my palm Apr 09 23:04:25 do somthing on it Apr 09 23:05:01 and the i tried to slide it back Apr 09 23:05:13 but that doesn't work :o Apr 09 23:05:28 the pre's slider will not close? Apr 09 23:05:36 yep Apr 09 23:05:48 karotte_exe: you're stuck with the keyboard open? Apr 09 23:05:49 it tried it in the hard and soft way Apr 09 23:05:53 *on Apr 09 23:06:11 karotte_exe: get a replacement? Apr 09 23:06:12 get configs error in preware? Apr 09 23:06:13 no, i had aproblemto close Apr 09 23:06:25 ? Apr 09 23:06:28 karotte_exe: is it not closing? Apr 09 23:06:32 replacemnt? Apr 09 23:06:36 yes Apr 09 23:06:36 a new pre Apr 09 23:06:45 karotte_exe: yes, I think you have a warranty replacement there Apr 09 23:06:56 but then (like magic) it is closing Apr 09 23:07:02 BUT!!!! Apr 09 23:07:15 now i hear somthing by every closing Apr 09 23:07:27 had someone this problem too? Apr 09 23:07:35 karotte_exe: does it sound like something scraping? Apr 09 23:08:01 ahm... Apr 09 23:08:09 anyone know about a get configs error in preware Apr 09 23:08:18 es schleift Apr 09 23:08:26 karotte_exe: it sounds like one of the plastic tabs broke off when you closed it. When you close it the noise may be the piece of plastic scraping on the inside of the pre. Apr 09 23:08:40 es schleift= sound like scrtching Apr 09 23:08:45 es schleift= sound like scartching Apr 09 23:08:50 thx Apr 09 23:08:54 karotte_exe: I would recommend taking it back to the dealer and ask for a warranty replacement Apr 09 23:09:00 thanks hape_ :-) Apr 09 23:09:03 ok Apr 09 23:09:14 how long will that take? Apr 09 23:09:22 karotte_exe: would do the dame. Contact you local O2 store Apr 09 23:09:32 kk Apr 09 23:09:40 las I heard in the gramn forum was abour 4 weeks :-( Apr 09 23:09:53 soory, to much wine... Apr 09 23:09:55 karotte_exe: if they have them in the store I would expect them to just give you a new phone for the old if it is a brand new phone Apr 09 23:09:57 but, are im the first with that problem? Apr 09 23:10:15 that would be nice! Apr 09 23:10:27 karotte_exe: there is a problem you can find on google with "palm pre oreo effect video" that is similar Apr 09 23:10:45 karotte_exe: but it sounds like you might have even worse problems than that Apr 09 23:10:57 aha Apr 09 23:11:20 i will go to my carier Apr 09 23:11:40 karotte_exe: that would be the quickest way to get it fixed :-) Apr 09 23:11:56 karotte_exe: check teh german pre froum at http://www.nexave.de/forum/ Apr 09 23:12:19 thx Apr 09 23:12:36 they are active and have a good contact to O2/Palm germany Apr 09 23:12:53 but i haven't a problem with english form Apr 09 23:12:58 oh! Apr 09 23:13:03 nice Apr 09 23:13:40 karotte_exe: But in the german forum you can find the information on how O2/Palm handeld other hardware problem Apr 09 23:13:53 kk, saved it to my favorites, thanks for your help Apr 09 23:14:03 im tired, bb Apr 09 23:16:06 me too, bed ia waiting .... Apr 09 23:16:19 enjoy :-) Apr 09 23:17:16 sbromwich: will do, zzzzzzzzzzzz Apr 09 23:17:24 heh Apr 09 23:18:15 does "opengl es2 demo for the qt framework" count as a "3d game"? Apr 09 23:19:22 sbromwich: I guess there's no category for "3d demo" :) Apr 09 23:19:48 I'm looking for a "3d game" to test my preempt kernel but it doesn't look like there's any available in canada Apr 09 23:21:08 sbromwich: look for an Asphalt 5 Demo? Apr 09 23:21:13 there's on in other territories Apr 09 23:21:49 ah-hah, thanks zsoc :-) Apr 09 23:22:05 s/on/one/ Apr 09 23:22:05 zsoc meant: there's one in other territories Apr 09 23:22:09 oh ffs Apr 09 23:22:21 "This application is not available in your country." Apr 09 23:22:26 I think there was an Assassin's Creed Demo as well Apr 09 23:22:26 bast. Apr 09 23:22:32 sbromwich: load an american profile Apr 09 23:23:05 ehhhh... I'm on call this week, I'm a bit iffy about twiddling too deep ;-) Apr 09 23:23:28 ah Apr 09 23:24:01 duke3d is software rendering, isn't it? Apr 09 23:24:20 sbromwich: quake is the most straight forward, single download Apr 09 23:24:42 is that using 3d or is it software rendering too? Apr 09 23:24:57 software rendering Apr 09 23:24:59 apparently I need something that is explicity using 3d, whatever that may mean Apr 09 23:25:44 I have a config with preempt where the camera is working, next trick that palm haven't been able to figure is to run 3d games Apr 09 23:25:56 alas without access to the damn things in my country I'm a bit shafted ;-) Apr 09 23:27:47 I shall consider something of more personal interest... will the X server run apps rootless? Apr 09 23:27:57 a la cygwin Apr 09 23:35:28 sbromwich: did you check if need for speed is available in your country Apr 09 23:35:46 thanks, I'll check now Apr 09 23:37:47 It was my understanding that NFS and a couple others were free in countries that didn't have access to the paid versions yet. Apr 09 23:38:35 yeah there was but loading the feeds in Preware I see full pay versions in Spain, Germany, Mexico, Canada etc Apr 09 23:40:18 only for $10 :-( Apr 09 23:40:46 so they might have taken down NFSUFree Apr 09 23:40:47 someone else has generously offered to send me a 3d demo ipk they downloaded to try Apr 09 23:40:52 seems so :-/ Apr 10 00:36:02 sbromwich: you there? Apr 10 00:36:58 rwhitby: you there? Apr 10 00:37:05 morning Apr 10 00:37:10 morning Apr 10 00:37:20 I have a question Apr 10 00:37:59 do you see any issue with current ipk on server on your end Apr 10 00:38:36 720 and 800 ones Apr 10 00:39:27 sbromwich, did you get what you needed? Apr 10 00:39:30 ?? Apr 10 00:40:10 dont htink hes around Apr 10 00:40:59 RWhitby: did you understand my question? Apr 10 00:42:03 caj2008: the current ipk is unfortunately not up to scratch for an ipkg.preware.org feed Apr 10 00:42:26 That is what I thought. Java issue? Apr 10 00:42:34 for a start, it is not OTA-safe Apr 10 00:42:47 What do you recommend? Apr 10 00:42:50 secondly, it writes all over the filesystem in places where it doesn't need to Apr 10 00:43:11 caj2008: same thing I've recommended for the last month, and what we're working on Apr 10 00:43:46 I know it isnt a piece of art but can it be fixed, ther earlier ipks had serious file catloging issues Apr 10 00:43:50 it's in the hardware subdir of the preware/build.git repository, pulling the latest kernel and patches that uNiXpSyChO has uploaded Apr 10 00:44:24 I am confused Apr 10 00:44:58 could you clarify nowthat I have had some sleep Apr 10 00:46:04 All of the existing ipk's had a 20% probability of reaching 600MHz, this one does not Apr 10 00:46:11 my stated plan for the last month or more has been to openly and transparently build kernel ipkgs from public git repositories, to package that using AUPT-4, and deliver it in a webOS-version-specific custom hardware-patches feed Apr 10 00:46:40 fine Apr 10 00:47:00 can you clarify this position with me on gtalj Apr 10 00:47:05 gtalk Apr 10 00:47:26 I dont completely understand Apr 10 00:47:48 what I need to do here Apr 10 00:47:54 no, this is an open development, discussion happens here where the other participants can see it in real-time and read it in the logs if they are not online now Apr 10 00:48:17 I am just confused?? what are you talking about Apr 10 00:48:52 nothing, it will all be completely automated from a kernel developer checking in a new version of a patch to an ipkg being ready in an alpha testing feed Apr 10 00:49:06 would you like that oipk to ber sent to your git repository? Apr 10 00:49:33 hey caj2008, sorry I have a new irc client I'm still getting the hang of Apr 10 00:49:42 * zsoc facepalms very slowly Apr 10 00:49:44 the git repository already has the kernel patch which is in that ipkg (well, actually an updated version from uNiXpSyChO from 1.4.1 sources) Apr 10 00:50:00 that ipk has the 600 issue Apr 10 00:50:08 we don't store finished ipkgs in git repositories, we build them on an autobuilder Apr 10 00:50:11 I checked it out Apr 10 00:50:22 caj2008: I'm not talking about an ipkg, I'm talking about the underlying patch Apr 10 00:50:46 Is this really a patch? Apr 10 00:50:52 (which is exactly the same in absolutely everything that has been released so far, but won't be now that uNiXpSyChO has forward-ported it to 1.4.1) Apr 10 00:50:53 I think not Apr 10 00:50:57 Kernel's are important. People need to see what the source is AND that it built /from/ that source. I wouldn't trust it any other way. Apr 10 00:51:40 caj2008: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=blob;f=overclocking/opp6-720-opp7-800-min-opp5.patch;hb=7fc21adbe6be1ff00c4ab61bd6b0bdedc9af98f9 is the patch Apr 10 00:51:57 I think you're referring to a Type:Patch ipkg or a script. Apr 10 00:52:08 why wasnt I involved? Apr 10 00:52:47 you are involved right now Apr 10 00:53:02 you can take the patch and build a kernel and test it just like anyone else Apr 10 00:53:39 OK I have no problem I just want to be proactive on my end now that I have had some sleep. What would you like on my end at this point Apr 10 00:54:16 I just want to help Apr 10 00:54:26 caj2008: the stage of development right now is kernel developers taking uNiXpSyChO's latest patch from the git repo, build a kernel from it, and characterising the new kernel Apr 10 00:55:06 the patch is in the repo I linked (you'll want the latest version). There is a Makefile in preware/build.git/hardware which will build it (I think that's what sbromwich is using) Apr 10 00:55:40 when I finish eating I'll be hassling you rwhitby don't worry ;-) Apr 10 00:56:01 Ok all I want to do is fix the directory error in the ipk in a version acceptable to you Apr 10 00:56:29 That was s erious error which effected 20% in people Apr 10 00:56:45 I called them the 600 club Apr 10 00:56:48 caj2008: that's in the packaging, not the kernel Apr 10 00:57:11 we're only working on the kernel at the moment. the packaging will come later when aupt-4 has been better tested Apr 10 00:57:27 The packaging, what requiremnts do you have for that as well? Apr 10 00:57:47 rwhitby, what major changing are taking place in the kernel now vs whats being worked on? Apr 10 00:58:16 did you figure that out caj2008? Apr 10 00:58:21 So are you saying the present kernel will not be used in any form? Apr 10 00:59:00 I am still confused here Apr 10 00:59:05 mkdir -p? Apr 10 00:59:20 FuMan: uNiXpSyChO has simply forward-ported the existing general release patch to the new 1.4.1 source from Palm Apr 10 00:59:43 caj2008: the present kernel is for 1.4.0, we're working on 1.4.1 now Apr 10 00:59:58 or did the >> /tmp/logfile thing work out for you in the end? Apr 10 01:00:00 indeed Apr 10 01:00:20 and the sbromwich scaling nuts crazy kernel is independent? Apr 10 01:00:39 FuMan: yep Apr 10 01:01:00 FuMan: no packaging for that, but you should be able to use the same infrastructure to build it yourself Apr 10 01:01:01 I just make up random shit and see how many phones I can break in one go Apr 10 01:01:23 Due to lack of sleep I didnt check over Palms release carefully, so you are saying what you heard from Palm that the kernel for 1.4.0is not the same as 1.4.1 and is dangerous? Apr 10 01:01:42 caj2008: so the packaging fix was taking Jason's packaging, throwing it away, and using packaging of the script instead? Apr 10 01:02:04 yes Apr 10 01:02:17 no, we haven't heard that. But the source is different. For a start, the extra dev node creation is not required Apr 10 01:02:29 secondly, there are changes in the VM subsystem I believe Apr 10 01:03:03 backport from 2.6.33 Apr 10 01:03:17 according to the scuttlebutt I heard Apr 10 01:03:20 So we shoudl clarify the eralier remarks that were made that the source was not different and pull all versions right now? Apr 10 01:03:37 it'll work fine, it's just a kernel Apr 10 01:03:41 caj2008: dunno. your testing seems to show it's not damaging anyone Apr 10 01:03:42 RWhitby: is that right? Apr 10 01:03:55 of course, I say that as the guy who runs alpha kernels on his phone as a matter of course Apr 10 01:03:58 people can just update when the new one is ready Apr 10 01:04:13 sorry, that was a little redundantly tautological Apr 10 01:04:41 All my testers are very happy and the 600 club has disappeared with the change of thecatloging /var/home/root to a temp directory (Umber1Pete helped with that) Apr 10 01:05:36 catlog? Apr 10 01:05:37 Sbromowich: you a re a radical like me....lol Apr 10 01:06:14 just a term I use to indicate the problem occurred to misdirection of the file by some unlnown cause in the OS Apr 10 01:06:55 We still dont understand why there was a 600 club? Any thoughts on that? Apr 10 01:07:02 did you try the >> /tmp/logfile trick I showed you last night? Apr 10 01:07:37 yeah, there's no error checking in the script so it'll failsafe and leave them with stock kernel or (depending on the error) new kernel stuck at max of 600 Apr 10 01:07:49 just rewrote /var/home/root/file placemnt with plcing in a temp file. That fixed problems using the script Apr 10 01:07:58 Jason helped too Apr 10 01:08:00 caj2008: sorry, but I haven't even attempted to look at the script or ipkg any further than seeing that it diverges far enough from our normal conventions that I don't want to install it on my production device until the autobuilder has packaged it in a repeatable and OTA-safe manner Apr 10 01:08:18 I'd be iffy about using /tmp Apr 10 01:08:30 it's tmpfs so if the system's short on ram... Apr 10 01:09:02 sbromwich: yeah, we moved ipkg processing in ipkgservice out of /tmp for that reason. we now use a dir in cryptofs Apr 10 01:09:04 It worked on N>15 cases in the 600 club as well as many not in 600 club Apr 10 01:09:14 christ don't use /tmp Apr 10 01:09:19 it's as bad as /media/ramdisk Apr 10 01:09:32 plus it has the same risk when you reboot... 1 way Apr 10 01:09:54 No issues..jbeen testing it for a long time Apr 10 01:09:57 caj2008: my stated plan all along has been to use the aupt-4 scripts, so that if any bug is found in the scripts through their use in patches, the same fix will apply to the kernels automatically Apr 10 01:10:12 can you uninstall it ok on low memory systems? Apr 10 01:10:16 just ddidnt want to release until all other options had failed Apr 10 01:10:24 (and there is a known bug in the aupt-3 scripts it seems) Apr 10 01:10:33 zsoc: thought about the sound recorder, patch the video rec, to add a button to just make audio instead and drop the video.. ? Apr 10 01:10:44 Robi_: zsoc has a cunning plan Apr 10 01:10:53 Several devices were packed to the hilt (100 patches, 250 programs) and it worked just fine Apr 10 01:11:10 caj2008: neither of those things affect /tmp usage Apr 10 01:11:16 rwhitby: cool, i'd love to hear it Apr 10 01:11:20 no, not patches, I'm talking about free(1) Apr 10 01:11:30 Robi_: it's so cunning even I haven't heard what it is yet ;) Apr 10 01:11:50 rwhitby: now that's cunning vapor :P Apr 10 01:12:08 Rwhitby I am new at this could you clarify? Apr 10 01:12:12 rwhitby: git pull in /home/sbromwich/build/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/build on mason? Apr 10 01:12:12 my apologies for my lack of knowledge on this Apr 10 01:12:18 Robi_: great, please make that patch. The second you figure out how to use an API that doesn't exist, please inform me. Apr 10 01:12:28 caj2008: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmpfs Apr 10 01:13:07 that should explain a bit more about what's so bad about using /tmp Apr 10 01:13:09 rwhitby: you mentioned seeing others having the problem with cryptofs being empty.. were there any solutions or troubleshooting to guage damage? Apr 10 01:13:45 thanks steve I will look so far there hasnt been a single reported issue Apr 10 01:13:48 Robi_: we checked 'mount' and it wasn't mounted. so I recommended doctoring, and they did that. Apr 10 01:13:59 zsoc: so you cant record the chatter between the video rec app and the service ? Apr 10 01:14:02 yeah it's not *massively* common but it's certainly possible Apr 10 01:14:18 sbromwich: change version in that Makefile to 1.4.1-1 and it should build Apr 10 01:14:23 and if stuff goes wonky the user will be left with a trashed kernel and no way to revert Apr 10 01:14:28 sbromwich: I just tagged the patch to match Apr 10 01:14:29 rwhitby: ta :-) Apr 10 01:14:40 Robi_: /can/ i? Yes, but to do it I'd need to write a service that could just as well record the audio, and with less cpu usage.. so.. i won't bother Apr 10 01:15:02 in /home/sbromwich/build/hardware/uber-kernel-pre? Apr 10 01:15:07 sbromwich: yep Apr 10 01:15:10 k Apr 10 01:15:13 I knmow of this from unix, we should be ok since the file is only alittle over 2Mb Apr 10 01:15:25 rwhitby: interestingly my sshd service isn't working either now.. stuff not starting correctly.. what other impact would 4755 permissions have on busybox? Apr 10 01:15:37 rwhitby: any chance joe could be installed on there? Apr 10 01:15:50 Robi_: OTA update will clear root password which will stop dropbear working Apr 10 01:15:57 Robi_: but openssh should have persisted Apr 10 01:16:16 zsoc: ah, so nothing to patch to log that chatter Apr 10 01:17:13 sbromwich: hold one, need to push the updated kernel.mk Apr 10 01:17:17 rwhitby: off to the races :-) Apr 10 01:17:19 oh. Apr 10 01:17:32 yeah patch fail ;-) Apr 10 01:17:36 Robi_: the camera app just requests that mediaserver does something. I can't control anything that a binary does, or ask it to do something it isn't programmed to do. Apr 10 01:18:02 sbromwich: try now - it will download the new kernel source Apr 10 01:18:11 make clean first or anything? Apr 10 01:18:12 sbromwich: git pull in build.git Apr 10 01:18:27 sbromwich: make clobber if desired Apr 10 01:18:39 zsoc: does the cam app request enough parameters to differentiate video and audio? Apr 10 01:19:06 sbromwich: 1.4.1-1 patch applied and is building Apr 10 01:19:41 Robi_: I haven't looked into it much, but I would guess the cam app requests that the video "go" and uh.. with no parameters. I know what parameters are used, by dumping a capture of mediaserver while it's taking video, but there's no way to control them or where they go. Apr 10 01:20:07 Robi_: I'm rewriting my own "mediaserver" you might say, using Puff's original service that he wrote for the first precorder (albeit never implemented) Apr 10 01:20:27 rwhitby: ok I think it's going again now... got the hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile updated and running make now Apr 10 01:20:41 You can can call it prevoicerecorder Apr 10 01:20:54 zsoc: ah, hopefuly the palm mediaserver wont fight over hw access Apr 10 01:21:15 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 10 01:21:36 Robi_: I mean, you could make an app that calls that 'go' request with no videosink (so nothing is on the screen), and then after it is written use ffmpeg to strip the audio out and transcode it, but that's just stupid. Apr 10 01:21:55 zsoc: call it prereccer, they'll love that on the forums :-) Apr 10 01:22:02 rwhitby: i believe i was using openssh it's also not running Apr 10 01:22:18 Robi_: if cryptofs is not mounted, all bets are off Apr 10 01:22:22 it is Apr 10 01:22:27 Robi_: why would it fight over hw access? mediaserver doesn't do anything unless it's asked... and even if you tried to record something while using my service, it should still work (albeit your cpu would explode) because pulse audio provides threads Apr 10 01:22:59 ;] OCing wouldn't help Apr 10 01:23:05 It does, actually. Apr 10 01:23:16 It helps quite a bit, with both stream rate and bit rate Apr 10 01:23:37 caj2008: the current ipkg violates package id naming conventions: unixpsyxho.l1337techmod.800kernel is the appid of the latest kernel, which is not a valid reverse DNS identifier Apr 10 01:23:40 more time i suppose Apr 10 01:24:19 reverse DNS identifiers are just silly Apr 10 01:24:24 my appid will be 'it.is.silly' Apr 10 01:24:26 * sbromwich wants sbromwich@unixpsycho Apr 10 01:24:56 that would be an awesome TLD. Apr 10 01:25:12 zsoc: they are an important disambiguation mechanism Apr 10 01:25:12 i love the comments in the ps output Apr 10 01:25:56 rwhitby: i guess if you think about it /really hard/ it makes sense, but i try not to think about anything that hard Apr 10 01:26:54 zsoc: just think of it as a place for vanity names ;] Apr 10 01:27:30 Ok didnt knw that and I will fix that Apr 10 01:27:43 boots.army.wears.momma.your.uberkernel Apr 10 01:28:08 or insults.. Apr 10 01:28:16 sbromwich: i think you fail at the idea of reverse dns Apr 10 01:28:16 *nod* Apr 10 01:28:29 zsoc: not when I run my own dns server I don't ;-) Apr 10 01:28:37 ha Apr 10 01:28:43 Rwhitbt: I am new at this and will try to make every thing compatible with your sustem Apr 10 01:28:50 * sbromwich is the proud operator of the internal domain fakesubzone.cdha.nshealth.ca (sic) Apr 10 01:29:12 the things that vendors make us do. Apr 10 01:30:25 RWhitby: I am learning much of this as I go and I hope you will bear with me until I get it all right. I will make the effort Apr 10 01:30:40 I usually get about halfway through setting up dns for a network then just give up and use direct ip addresses Apr 10 01:30:49 /bin/sh: /home/sbromwich/build/toolchain/cs08q1armel/build/arm-2008q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc: No such file or directory Apr 10 01:30:51 ? Apr 10 01:31:07 have I missed building something? Apr 10 01:31:14 caj2008: the autobuilder builds in the conventions, so it's no issue for the future autobuilt packages Apr 10 01:31:33 sbromwich: make toolchain at the top-level Apr 10 01:31:36 ta Apr 10 01:31:37 OK I feel better Apr 10 01:31:41 ok why are most of my /etc/event.d bits not executable? is mobi.optware.openssh supposed to be +x ? Apr 10 01:32:16 Over the past four days I had 12 h of sleep and just goy my first real sleep! Apr 10 01:32:42 I am happy today because I also caught up on my real job stuff Apr 10 01:33:30 oh of course optware stuff is on cryptofs Apr 10 01:33:43 rwhitby: did you see my benching post for io schedulers btw? Apr 10 01:33:48 anyone else who wants to build uNiXpSyChO's latest kernel, preware/build.git/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile is up to date Apr 10 01:33:53 sbromwich: nope Apr 10 01:33:56 *grin* Apr 10 01:34:35 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/bonnie_palmos.ods Apr 10 01:34:46 hmm how else to recover cryptofs.. Apr 10 01:34:46 anticipatory may be a better choice, oddly Apr 10 01:35:42 sbromwich: I like the statistics disclaimer Apr 10 01:36:00 mmm Apr 10 01:36:07 sbromowich: hows the new kernel coming: what is the power savings you see? Apr 10 01:37:02 it sucks Apr 10 01:37:07 camera fails Apr 10 01:37:14 old alpha kernel is better, camera works with that Apr 10 01:38:05 surprisingly the camera doesn't work for palm with preempt Apr 10 01:38:20 sbromwich: i'm sure it's a driver bug Apr 10 01:38:56 I dunno... I had some other weird issues with sounds not getting notifications Apr 10 01:39:15 and yet sounds made by apps (eg closing an app) worked fine Apr 10 01:39:27 ok ondemand scheduler back on Apr 10 01:39:29 there is of course the issue that pulseaudio sucks, but that's life Apr 10 01:39:52 it's as if inotify were disabled but it wasn't, all I disabled were ext3 labels Apr 10 01:40:09 I *do* hope there's nothing constantly polling for changes. Apr 10 01:40:53 Are you sure this isnt OS1.41 related, the great OS from Palm? Apr 10 01:41:12 SBromowich:that was for you Apr 10 01:41:33 oh, and I enabled CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_STAT_DETAILS as well which somehow got disabled along the way Apr 10 01:41:46 no it isn't Apr 10 01:41:51 it's a kernel thing Apr 10 01:41:52 ok Apr 10 01:42:04 I spent a lot of last night reading through the first bit of palm's patch Apr 10 01:42:14 you are certainly doing yourhome work, your momma would be proud Apr 10 01:42:52 I am going to look over the new source this wekend when I have some time Apr 10 01:43:15 yeah, there's some interesting stuff in there Apr 10 01:43:34 I found kgdboe so if that will work that'd be great Apr 10 01:44:01 Sbromowich: I really appreciated all the time you spent with me last night Apr 10 01:44:08 Thank you sir Apr 10 01:44:24 np, you're welcome :-) Apr 10 01:44:48 you are a good guy!! Apr 10 01:45:02 tell that to my ex ;-> Apr 10 01:45:07 lol Apr 10 01:45:36 This is why I am deprting in 30 days, I am afraid my wife thinks I am having an affair with my POre Apr 10 01:45:58 *grin* Apr 10 01:46:40 like the goals you are working on in the kernel, removing the redundancies as well Apr 10 01:47:03 hmm messages log is not very useful Apr 10 01:47:26 well I got preempt working with the camera which is apparently a bit of a milestone Apr 10 01:47:37 great! Apr 10 01:47:51 * zsoc waves at destinal-wirc Apr 10 01:48:09 little steps are required to walk the long mile Apr 10 01:48:31 mmm Apr 10 01:51:52 sbromwich: add overclocking/defconfig.patch to the end of KERNEL_PATCHES I think Apr 10 01:52:14 ok Apr 10 01:52:19 ~~~~ Apr 10 01:52:20 ARGH!!! STOP IT destinal-wirc!!! Apr 10 01:52:31 zsoc: heya Apr 10 01:52:35 I forgot that we split the source and config patches out again Apr 10 01:59:32 * sbromwich is booting an alpha kernel again Apr 10 01:59:46 hopefully this time it works when someone calls me. Apr 10 01:59:49 * rwhitby bbl Apr 10 02:00:22 so what's the plan for the FUSE? and why do we need it again? Apr 10 02:00:35 for cryptofs Apr 10 02:00:47 which is giving me a headache right now Apr 10 02:00:58 I think it's for a chroot of some sort Apr 10 02:01:19 I just whacked /media/internal and recreated it as 5 gig and created a dedicated /opt Apr 10 02:01:32 destinal-wirc: to have a debian chroot without a fixed size but with symlinks and usb mode support Apr 10 02:01:47 oh Robi_ just for SNG can you cat /proc/cmdline ? Apr 10 02:02:12 has a unionfs / aufs been considered? Apr 10 02:02:31 sbromwich: yes root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 Apr 10 02:02:39 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #3 PREEMPT Fri Apr 9 22:51:48 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 10 02:02:44 ah-hah Apr 10 02:02:52 or is var too small Apr 10 02:03:02 can someone else try cat /proc/cmdline for me? Apr 10 02:03:26 sbromwich: i can't paste it as i'm stuck in novaterm Apr 10 02:03:31 I can't give a valid result with my kernel Apr 10 02:03:34 oh, there's more? Apr 10 02:03:52 root@palm-webos-device:/# cat /proc/cmdline Apr 10 02:03:52 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootwait ro fb=0x8f600000 fbcon=disable console=tty1 nduid=c6d4281ae4cddcc895329042b660e2605c881f90 klog=0x8ff00000 klog_len=0x100000 boardtype=castle-dvt3 dsp_base=0x8f900000 dsp_len=0x600000 lastboot=panic Apr 10 02:03:52 ok can someone else post /proc/cmdline to compare for robi? Apr 10 02:03:56 ta Apr 10 02:04:05 course you could just chroot directly to var if it's not .. don't know where I was goibg with that Apr 10 02:04:07 Robi_: what's different there for you? Apr 10 02:04:15 (if anything) Apr 10 02:04:19 uNiXpSyChO: LOL Apr 10 02:04:24 look at your last argument ;) Apr 10 02:04:36 hah! Apr 10 02:04:37 bad kernel ;) Apr 10 02:04:40 nduid is diff and i cant see more than klog Apr 10 02:04:40 nice one :-) Apr 10 02:04:59 ok let me get mine for comparison Apr 10 02:05:08 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootwait ro fb=0x8f600000 fbcon=disable console=tty1 nduid=24d6bfe1ac62ae233391eaa1772c3d89f4da79f1 klog=0x8ff00000 klog_len=0x100000 boardtype=castle-dvt3 dsp_base=0x8f900000 dsp_len=0x600000 lastboot=recover Apr 10 02:05:35 my lastboot is a reboot Apr 10 02:06:06 sbromwich: so what version kernel are you playing with? Apr 10 02:06:12 if I read it right the only diff between uNiXpSyChO and myself apart from lastboot is nduid, you don't get boardtype or dospbase? Apr 10 02:06:34 1.3.setomhing + uNiXpSyChO patch + preempt + anticipatory io + cpufreq + debug stripped Apr 10 02:06:42 i have boardtype Apr 10 02:06:46 castle-dvt3 Apr 10 02:06:47 holy crap I've drunk too much tonight Apr 10 02:06:53 1.3.something Apr 10 02:07:31 Robi_: do you have dsp? Apr 10 02:08:14 base and len yes Apr 10 02:08:29 hacking your phone while drinking? Apr 10 02:09:24 wow. Apr 10 02:09:28 man this sucks, everything useful on the phone is in cryptofs which is now empty Apr 10 02:09:37 anticipatory makes a big diff in preware alpha Apr 10 02:09:41 RagingMind: yeah Apr 10 02:09:52 Robi_: well i think i just broke mine, so you might have a partner trying to fix it Apr 10 02:10:04 I remember the actual 1.3 kernel, good times Apr 10 02:10:24 sbromwich, that sounds like it'll just fade out slowly or become very interesting Apr 10 02:10:26 dating myself I know Apr 10 02:10:55 this might be me coming off a dog-ass slow kernel but this feels tres fast Apr 10 02:10:57 destinal-wirc, not quite as bad... but I remember gnome 1.4 coming out Apr 10 02:11:07 zsoc: what did you do? also lost cryptofs? i'm in after some food Apr 10 02:11:41 Robi_: i didn't lose it, but everything in it is 0 sized Apr 10 02:11:43 hah the nduid is showing in the novaterm window Apr 10 02:11:46 trying a reboot first Apr 10 02:12:00 df -h Apr 10 02:12:06 Robi_: did you just try undo'ing your permission modding ? Apr 10 02:12:42 i did, no change, but i fear busybox at 4755 changed things elsewhere Apr 10 02:14:21 so i think i may need to do a ls -laR and send the output to you for a diff Apr 10 02:14:31 jaysus 6 tries to scp one file. Apr 10 02:14:33 feck. Apr 10 02:14:52 sbromwich: ya welcome to embeded Apr 10 02:15:09 no, 7, because I cocked that last one up Apr 10 02:15:17 Robi_: I just can't type for shit for some reason tonight Apr 10 02:15:27 do you want to try my new kernel btw? Apr 10 02:16:01 i would if i weren't in a pickle with my cryptofs Apr 10 02:16:23 heh Apr 10 02:16:27 ok, i really messed my phone Apr 10 02:16:28 i've been happy with the 800MHz patch with ondemand governor tho Apr 10 02:16:30 brave Apr 10 02:16:52 sbromwich: 6 tries? why.. Apr 10 02:17:01 kernel passes the "scroll up and down in the launcher fast" benchmark Apr 10 02:17:05 destinal-wirc: liquor Apr 10 02:17:09 destinal-wirc: I think maybe 12 shots of whiskey Apr 10 02:17:23 ouch, hard stuff Apr 10 02:17:28 ahhh Apr 10 02:17:29 good stuff Apr 10 02:17:35 $150/bottle whiskey Apr 10 02:17:38 nomnomnom, wtc Apr 10 02:18:28 camera doesn't work with new kernel Apr 10 02:18:29 longest hostmask Apr 10 02:18:29 wtf? Apr 10 02:18:31 alignment? Apr 10 02:18:32 ever Apr 10 02:18:41 heh Apr 10 02:19:08 sbromwich: then i dont wanna try the kernel later if cam no work Apr 10 02:19:14 I'd probably ferment distill and age it myself for years instead of paying $150 a bottle.. :) Apr 10 02:19:34 EFnet boys are quiet Apr 10 02:20:11 keith idle Apr 10 02:20:27 oh wait, can't distill.. I live in "the land of the free" Apr 10 02:20:34 don't tell me it's the fucking io scheduler Apr 10 02:20:37 nfw Apr 10 02:21:09 zsoc: find a useful log to look at? Apr 10 02:22:34 Robi_: my issue runs deep it seems Apr 10 02:23:44 i still haven't found where mine stems from Apr 10 02:25:04 Sbromowich: no one like the camera anyway.....lol Apr 10 02:25:34 well I'm going to revert and try with just one scheduler Apr 10 02:25:52 sbromowich: did the config help the build? Apr 10 02:27:08 rwhitby-pre: just waiting for ka6sox to get the time to install some stuff for me Apr 10 02:27:16 then I'll migrate up to 1.4.1 Apr 10 02:27:36 ok Apr 10 02:27:36 I suspect it probably wouldn't be good for me to be running much one someone else's machine at the moment anyway ;-) Apr 10 02:28:36 sbrowmich: mason is bored - load it up Apr 10 02:28:54 * rwhitby-pre bbiab Apr 10 02:29:07 Robi_: have you tried doctor on your phone? Apr 10 02:32:01 sbromwich: no i didn't wanna loose stuff just yet Apr 10 02:32:24 Robi_: I think you already have TBH :-( Apr 10 02:32:34 trying to avoid the MCSE approach Apr 10 02:32:39 *grin* Apr 10 02:33:00 sturgeon's law... I think you're in the 10% tonight Apr 10 02:33:30 i need to know what happened before i can try to fix it even if it means doctoring Apr 10 02:33:37 not erase all evidence Apr 10 02:34:12 Robi_: IIRC you were doing an update? Apr 10 02:34:25 of preware Apr 10 02:34:39 ahhh Apr 10 02:34:51 zsoc hit the same bug and believes it is a buffer overflow Apr 10 02:35:01 I found in my kernel compiles that ext3 labels are compiled Apr 10 02:35:05 sorry Apr 10 02:35:06 *required* Apr 10 02:35:26 so whats the evidence Apr 10 02:35:54 so my speculation is they're keeping some sort of info in the dentries that got trashed by (a) your preware update going awry and (b) zsoc being a developer and having his code wedge Apr 10 02:36:09 evidence for ext3 labels being required are the fact the kernel won't boot without them Apr 10 02:37:06 trash the dentries and I *think* the trnsaform for the key from the nduid gets brokewn and cryptifs won't get loaded Apr 10 02:37:26 this is guess work but I think that's it Apr 10 02:38:50 and fwiw for any palm developer reading I think the reason preempt isn't working is an issue with the io scheduler which is why I could get the camera working with preempt today with noop scheduler Apr 10 02:39:58 but pulseaudio is my problem with preempt. lots of BUG()'s Apr 10 02:40:19 have I mentioned before that pulseaudio sucks? Apr 10 02:40:22 pulseaudio sucks. Apr 10 02:40:35 confirmed by audiophile friend most vehemently. Apr 10 02:40:46 it might be the Palm ALSA drivers tho. they patches their own drivers Apr 10 02:40:55 s/patches/patched Apr 10 02:41:22 disabling syslog and reducing dis io traffic helps bevcause pulseaudio gets interrupted and out of sync from the disk io traffic so you have to disable syslog and what not Apr 10 02:41:37 sorry that sentence made no sense at all. Apr 10 02:42:00 !syslog && !diskio == pulseaudio :-) Apr 10 02:42:13 syslog || diskio == pulseadio :-( Apr 10 02:42:29 sums it up. Apr 10 02:42:56 somewhat. at least with my tests there was no disk io... just lots of kernel msgs about BGUG()'s pointing to pulse Apr 10 02:43:10 s/BGUG.BUGS/g Apr 10 02:43:14 pluse audio is one big bug() Apr 10 02:43:20 massive bug Apr 10 02:43:24 s/mistakes/no makstakes/ Apr 10 02:43:28 arse. Apr 10 02:43:39 too much Highland Park tonight Apr 10 02:43:46 I think not enough brb Apr 10 02:47:54 benromach origins this time, nomnomnom Apr 10 02:52:19 i think i should recompile the bridge driver. my kernel is frowning at me. Apr 10 02:52:38 that's an excellent visual Apr 10 02:52:41 how so? Apr 10 02:53:03 [ 875.100000] Last IRQ: 26 Apr 10 02:53:03 [ 875.100000] irq -33, desc: a03ca308, depth: 0, count: 0, unhandled: 0 Apr 10 02:53:03 [ 875.100000] ->handle_irq(): a00868b4, ->chip(): 00000000, ->action(): 00000000 Apr 10 02:53:03 [ 885.100000] Waited 5000 ms for DSP hibernation Apr 10 02:53:03 [ 885.100000] Timed out Waiting for DSP Off mode Apr 10 02:53:14 phone hangs for 5 seconds Apr 10 02:53:16 uNiXpSyChO: I can't remember did I tell you the acid test with the camera? Apr 10 02:53:24 yeah Apr 10 02:53:31 yeah, that doesn't look too cheery Apr 10 02:53:42 it would concur with the palm speculation it would cause WAN issues Apr 10 02:53:54 the bridge driver compiles against the kernel... so maybe i need to match it. Apr 10 02:54:03 are you using preempt now? Apr 10 02:54:24 i was... just panic'd :) Apr 10 02:54:28 oh. Apr 10 02:54:31 oh well ;-) Apr 10 02:54:38 I'm just about to make uimage anyway Apr 10 02:54:47 pling plong. Apr 10 02:55:55 I wonder what it means that I'm the last post on almost every thread I post to? Am I posting too much, a thread killer, or just one of the few people posting actual real information instead of penis extension desires? Apr 10 02:56:07 Image arch/arm/boot/uImage is ready Apr 10 02:56:09 here goes Apr 10 02:56:21 what about the BFS scheduler? Apr 10 02:56:35 sbromwich: I've pushed the defconfig patch addition to the Makefile Apr 10 02:57:15 okies Apr 10 02:57:29 i need some more Scotch Apr 10 02:57:30 * sbromwich suspects he will be spending some time reading irc logs come tomorrow Apr 10 02:57:58 I have 2 x benromach, 1 c glenfarclas, and 1 x speyside Apr 10 02:58:02 all nomnom Apr 10 02:58:27 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Fri Apr 9 23:55:12 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 10 02:58:30 ftw, etc Apr 10 02:58:42 i dont see -rt there ;) Apr 10 02:59:05 details, details Apr 10 02:59:16 still working on getting preempt it work gud Apr 10 02:59:34 arse. Apr 10 02:59:42 I defaulted to anticipatoory instead of nooop **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 10 02:59:57 2010