**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Apr 12 02:59:56 2010 Apr 12 03:01:06 yeah, I got further with the FASTPATH_BATTERY disabled Apr 12 03:01:20 something in the fastpath may be hooky then Apr 12 03:22:20 prcm_check_power_domain_status in prcm_pwr.c with the udelay may have a race condition with cpufreq Apr 12 03:22:23 *maybe* Apr 12 03:34:21 Steve: sorry I missed your message ran off too quickly. Saw the log. The answer to your question I posted on the ipk thread. Hope it helps! Apr 12 03:36:11 similar possible race in prcm_set_domain_power_configuration with cpufreq... that looks like it might be suspiciously close to the hang Apr 12 03:36:13 thanks caj Apr 12 03:37:22 the omap chip isn't dual core, is it? Apr 12 03:38:53 also is it just me or is facebook beta a big battery suck? Apr 12 03:40:05 single ARM Core + Co-Processors. Apr 12 03:40:46 hmmm... I must be misreading this then. Apr 12 03:40:48 thanks Apr 12 03:41:00 UART3?! Apr 12 03:41:10 Least I can do so glad you are involved now. Iam excited to see what you come up with truly!!!!!!!! Apr 12 03:41:22 heh Apr 12 03:41:24 thanks :-) Apr 12 03:41:29 yw Apr 12 03:43:54 /### Do we really need to do this. When we get here the state params should be fine. Apr 12 03:43:58 *sigh* Apr 12 03:44:12 doesn't give me the warm fuzzies to see stuff like that :-/ Apr 12 03:44:29 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/11/bloomberg-palm-is-up-for-sale/ - interesting Apr 12 03:46:36 definitely should have kept my palm shares :-/ Apr 12 03:47:26 poor palm ;( Apr 12 03:47:52 sometimes Rumors are started to drive up the price. Apr 12 03:48:23 i hope webos' openness isn't killed by whoever buys themn Apr 12 03:48:44 me too Apr 12 03:48:48 HTC? Apr 12 03:48:58 M$ would be a poor fit. Apr 12 03:49:14 ms would kill its openness for sure Apr 12 03:49:15 * sbromwich wonders if novell would go for it Apr 12 03:49:24 ah-hah! Apr 12 03:49:32 I've found the source of most of the random reboots, I think Apr 12 03:49:34 i hope they don't get bought and ride it out .. i have faith they can pull ahead Apr 12 03:49:43 prcm_pwr.c line 1682 Apr 12 03:49:57 /* Errata 1.107: Apr 12 03:50:00 [cut] Apr 12 03:50:06 When verifying the EMU power domain status, the ROM Code loops Apr 12 03:50:08 * for eternity. Apr 12 03:50:13 bpadalino, convince every person you know to buy a Prē ;) Apr 12 03:50:21 +e Apr 12 03:50:32 i have 3 friends who bought pre's .. Apr 12 03:51:25 the funny thing is Apr 12 03:51:34 webos would be right up googles alley Apr 12 03:51:37 but they already ahve a mobile os Apr 12 03:52:09 I have an instinctive distrust of google, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about that Apr 12 03:52:15 anyone know what SmartIdle is? Apr 12 03:52:22 companies have had multiple products for years (even if some are competing) Apr 12 03:52:57 or SDRC Apr 12 03:53:02 sbromwich: arm version of ondemand/voltage scaling? Apr 12 03:53:15 I thought that was SmartReflex Apr 12 03:53:19 * sbromwich is suspicious Apr 12 03:53:27 just installed preware on 2 new pre, on both just sit at "loading package information - palm-catalog", tried restarting app, tried power off/on of pre, no go Apr 12 03:53:33 sbromwich: maybe related? Apr 12 03:53:53 I think arch/arm/mach-omap3pe/prcm_pwr.c could do with a fine toothcomb going over it Apr 12 03:54:28 there is some stuff that is just... odd Apr 12 03:54:36 /* We need to explicitely turn off the D2D clock here as it is being Apr 12 03:54:38 * turned on automatically after OFF mode by the ROM code. Apr 12 03:54:40 */ Apr 12 03:54:42 ??? Apr 12 03:55:03 would anyone like to have a stab at disambiguating that? Apr 12 03:55:40 i cant get my else of fix palm kernel stuff when there is omap3 code upstream already Apr 12 03:55:53 i wish palm would switch to the official omap3 codebase Apr 12 03:56:12 PuffTheMagic: maybe they did already, but it hasn't trickled out to the updates yet Apr 12 03:56:33 wkup_log_suspend_clocks(); /* log clocks before suspend */ Apr 12 03:56:50 so it's... waking up to log the fact it's suspending? Apr 12 03:56:54 i wouldn't doubt if consumers are 2 or 3 months off from developer tip Apr 12 03:58:09 newpreuser: sounds like you're uysing an old version of preware Apr 12 03:58:31 what is preware? Apr 12 03:58:55 newpreuser: my internet is terribly slow sotherwise I'd find you a link. but essentially you want to disable the palm-catalog feed, updated preware, and then you can re-enable Apr 12 03:59:08 * oil was wondering the same thing puff Apr 12 03:59:17 dtzwill ill double check, but im pretty sure it was the latest from the website Apr 12 03:59:52 ah! Apr 12 04:00:04 * Note from TI: Apr 12 04:00:05 * - When the USBHOST domain is woken up by a wakeup Apr 12 04:00:07 [....] Apr 12 04:00:11 * - This CLEAR_EVENT must be asserted for at least 2 system Apr 12 04:00:13 * clock cycles to be latched by the PRM state machine. Apr 12 04:00:24 I think that's the cause if a lot of hangs from power button press Apr 12 04:00:38 udelay(10)? Apr 12 04:00:43 newpreuser: what version are you using? you need v09.33 or later for issue I'm talking about Apr 12 04:00:47 * sbromwich starts counting on his fingers Apr 12 04:01:50 ah, the stand alone installer had .0.9.28, thought it would have had the latest, ill get 9.33 installed Apr 12 04:01:52 PuffTheMagic, oil: LOL for a second I thought I was in the wrong channel :D Apr 12 04:02:22 anyone know what HZ is off the top of their heads? Apr 12 04:02:42 lol Apr 12 04:02:47 lol Apr 12 04:02:49 sbromwich: r u serious? Apr 12 04:03:04 yeah Apr 12 04:03:30 has to do with the resolution of the cpu scheduler Apr 12 04:03:43 so 1000 is normal Apr 12 04:03:45 I'm way deep in the kernel tree in prcm_pwr.c, if HZ is < 250 then I think the udelay(1) might know what it is Apr 12 04:03:48 sorry Apr 12 04:03:50 some people run lower Apr 12 04:03:52 to save power Apr 12 04:03:52 what HZ is configured for by default Apr 12 04:03:56 but the kernel has NOHZ enabled Apr 12 04:04:08 christ Apr 12 04:04:12 so it basically skips cycles Apr 12 04:04:17 when not needed Apr 12 04:04:20 so 1000 is good Apr 12 04:04:53 so with nohz it could go below 250 Apr 12 04:05:29 100 Apr 12 04:06:59 and, lucky moi, udelay is arm assembler Apr 12 04:07:02 anyone read that? Apr 12 04:07:16 * loops = r0 * HZ * loops_per_jiffy / 1000000 Apr 12 04:07:18 errrrrrr Apr 12 04:07:46 what about it Apr 12 04:07:51 what about it? Apr 12 04:07:56 lol Apr 12 04:08:30 Hi Meep Apr 12 04:08:34 been looking for ya. Apr 12 04:09:23 "This CLEAR_EVENT must be asserted for at least 2 system clock cycles to be latched by the PRM state machine." Apr 12 04:09:43 implemented by udelay(25) Apr 12 04:10:00 quality Apr 12 04:10:04 I'm not sure but I think there's a chance that might not be enough in some corner cases Apr 12 04:10:11 sbromwich: yeah on a nohz system that udelay will not always work Apr 12 04:10:26 plus with cpufreq with its fingers in the mix... Apr 12 04:10:31 mirth and woe may well ensue. Apr 12 04:10:33 naaa Apr 12 04:10:37 cqpufreq dont matter here Apr 12 04:10:56 this issue is all caause with nohz, HZ is not constant Apr 12 04:10:57 its all clock ticks. Apr 12 04:10:59 not even when clocked down to 125MHz? Apr 12 04:11:09 sbromwich: nothing to do with it Apr 12 04:11:12 its NOHZ Apr 12 04:11:19 aka dynticks Apr 12 04:11:22 hmmm k, that's all come in since I last went deep into the kernel :-/ Apr 12 04:11:27 dtzwill tried out 0.9.56, fixed it, thanks Apr 12 04:11:31 * sbromwich has more reading to do it would appear Apr 12 04:11:40 I still think udelay(25) is iffy though. Apr 12 04:11:47 sbromwich: try this Apr 12 04:12:18 Yeah ka6sox? Apr 12 04:12:28 sbromwich: hmm Apr 12 04:12:32 let me think for a sec Apr 12 04:12:58 Meep, when I needed support for SCALE they sent me 4 phones and over 200 webos development books. Apr 12 04:12:59 hang on no... udelay 10 Apr 12 04:13:00 BTW, I usually lurk off-channel - /msg Meep to find me - I use adium (gaim for OSX) Apr 12 04:13:05 Yup. Apr 12 04:13:19 sbromwich: shorter udelay wont help Apr 12 04:13:36 no I misread... it's udelay(10) not udelay(25) Apr 12 04:13:45 Meep, so they *are* suppporting the project a lot more than you might think. Apr 12 04:13:51 sbromwich: well its the same issue Apr 12 04:13:59 soemtimes HZ can go down to 0 Apr 12 04:14:07 and that will mess this up Apr 12 04:14:28 and lead to random lockups when brought out of suspend, I suspect Apr 12 04:14:38 0/100000 is still 0 Apr 12 04:14:59 ka6sox: What's your concern? Apr 12 04:15:24 Meep, Apr 12 04:15:34 where in adium is irc listed as a protocol? Apr 12 04:15:40 can't seem to find it in the menus Apr 12 04:15:48 ka6sox: udelay is not based on HZ Apr 12 04:15:53 is there a recommended alternative to udelay that will give a fixed sleep? Apr 12 04:15:55 so maybe try usleep? Apr 12 04:16:02 Meep, you said that it was amazing what the project has done without support from Palm. Apr 12 04:16:10 sbromwich: usleep maybe Apr 12 04:16:39 mm WIDK not building Apr 12 04:16:39 FuMan2: it's the beta version 1.4b17. Apr 12 04:16:39 huzzah Apr 12 04:16:41 OK I'll try usleep for SNG Apr 12 04:16:44 cp: cannot stat `/srv/preware/cross-compile/rootfs/armv6/usr/lib/libpng12.so*': No such file or directory Apr 12 04:16:48 i never knew my adium was so old and busted O_o Apr 12 04:16:52 /srv/preware/cross-compile/rootfs/armv6/usr doesn't exist even Apr 12 04:17:21 oh lord, twitternow too Apr 12 04:18:01 ka6sox - the context is that Palm hasn't been providing direct formal engineering support to the work. Apr 12 04:18:49 sbromwich: do u know how to use git? Apr 12 04:19:28 PuffTheMagic: only as much as rwhitby has shown me, I usually use svn Apr 12 04:19:56 well i should get u get up so u can commit to the kernel repo Apr 12 04:20:02 Meep, Palm has been doing MORE than most mobile phone companies to *encourage* development...most try to LOCK out homebrew Apr 12 04:20:22 I'm doing this on mason ;-) Apr 12 04:20:34 sbromwich: huh? Apr 12 04:20:39 wow, irc on here is super weird. Apr 12 04:21:03 on where? Apr 12 04:21:04 but I guess now i don't have to use x-chat aqua Apr 12 04:21:11 Adium/pidgin/gaim Apr 12 04:21:19 yeah, i dont like it Apr 12 04:21:22 sbromwich@mason:~/build/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/build/src-1.4.1-1/linux-2.6.24/arch/arm/mach-omap3pe$ Apr 12 04:21:30 what do you use instead? Apr 12 04:21:36 xchat Apr 12 04:21:42 :P Apr 12 04:22:02 sbromwich: what are u saying Apr 12 04:22:10 too good to push to the git repo? Apr 12 04:22:24 sbromwich hates git Apr 12 04:22:46 yeah Apr 12 04:22:52 u have to use git to play with the kernel Apr 12 04:23:00 still haven't got my head wrapped around it Apr 12 04:23:08 no, I just pull down the tarball Apr 12 04:23:18 yeah that is terrible Apr 12 04:23:22 u need to track your work Apr 12 04:23:39 lol Apr 12 04:23:41 I... do? Apr 12 04:23:59 monolithic patches suck Apr 12 04:24:03 svn is what I use Apr 12 04:24:14 I have /etc on my pre under svn, for example Apr 12 04:24:29 *shrug* Apr 12 04:24:38 linus was always happy with my patches in the past Apr 12 04:24:50 I suppose things change. Apr 12 04:25:35 this aint for linus Apr 12 04:25:42 no, it's for rwhitby Apr 12 04:25:52 and me Apr 12 04:26:18 oh yeah... i keep forgetting this isnt for anyone else Apr 12 04:26:25 I'm doing this so I can get preempt working and then get rt Apr 12 04:26:36 lol rt Apr 12 04:26:44 rwhitby can then cherrypick what's of use to other people and then bundle it up in a real ipk Apr 12 04:27:04 u will never get RT patched in Apr 12 04:28:07 no, that's why I'm getting novell involved. Apr 12 04:28:46 not happening Apr 12 04:28:47 ka6sox: Sure, there have been some bones thrown here and there to help through hard bumps. Apr 12 04:29:28 ka6sox: That's also what I'm talking about tomorrow: Palm made efforts to keep the platform transparent and accessible. Apr 12 04:30:02 The side-effect is that by doing so, Palm has one of the most vibrant home-brew communities on the mobile side. Apr 12 04:30:09 *shrug* golem seemed interested Apr 12 04:30:19 I am too. Apr 12 04:30:23 cause he has never tried using the RT code obviously Apr 12 04:30:26 hello. I have a problem downloading patches from preware. Anyone else? Apr 12 04:30:29 errrrr Apr 12 04:30:39 I believe he has. Apr 12 04:31:03 compiled and ran maybe Apr 12 04:31:04 PuffTheMagic, I've been using RT kernels for 20yrs Apr 12 04:31:10 but u are talking about applying the palm patch Apr 12 04:31:14 to the RT branch Apr 12 04:31:21 not 1 hunk in that patch will apply Apr 12 04:31:28 there will be massive porting to do Apr 12 04:31:32 its not fun Apr 12 04:31:33 ye-es? Apr 12 04:32:02 latest RT is still like 2.6.2X i think Apr 12 04:32:08 not even in .3x Apr 12 04:32:15 i've tried porting it before Apr 12 04:32:17 same arch Apr 12 04:32:24 and that was a nightmare Apr 12 04:32:36 start messing with such a huge core change Apr 12 04:32:39 touch so many files Apr 12 04:32:46 very hard to debug Apr 12 04:33:03 i dont see it happening Apr 12 04:33:15 ok Apr 12 04:33:18 maybe if we were using the omap code form upstream Apr 12 04:33:24 there would be a fighting chance Apr 12 04:33:47 we are not doing any professional audio recording Apr 12 04:33:57 or mission critical RT tasks Apr 12 04:34:20 wouldnt gain anything over the preemption in the kernel Apr 12 04:34:31 what about the issue with the USB host and the WAN timer? Apr 12 04:34:41 idk about that issue Apr 12 04:34:56 that would be one area RT would be a win Apr 12 04:35:12 RT is a pipedream Apr 12 04:35:18 its not a solution to anything Apr 12 04:35:44 i can not get my preware to load past the catalog part. i can only load if i down load the alpha. any ideas? Apr 12 04:35:46 uh-huh Apr 12 04:37:18 johnny_: have you done a hard reboot since installing preware? that can wipe out any iffy files Apr 12 04:37:22 then update feeds again Apr 12 04:37:42 can both be run on the same pre? Apr 12 04:40:08 * oil has yet to install preware alpha Apr 12 04:40:14 hilarious, i know Apr 12 04:40:31 I have them both but I haven't run preware since installing alpha tbh Apr 12 04:40:38 alpha is far quicker Apr 12 04:40:50 rwhitby said they should both work fine, I thought Apr 12 04:41:04 preware old should just use the new backend Apr 12 04:41:08 ICBW though Apr 12 04:43:24 woohoo, buyout rumors again. Time to see the stock go up Apr 12 04:43:34 lol Apr 12 04:43:48 chrisa, excellent for 401k's Apr 12 04:43:51 :D Apr 12 04:44:27 chrisa, are you happy to hear buyout rumors? when i worked at a place that rumors went around, it kinda made the atmosphere way more tense Apr 12 04:44:34 i wasn't a fan Apr 12 04:44:42 brand new phone did all updates then installed preware my previous phones had no issues with pre ware. same problem with my daughters pixi. Apr 12 04:45:14 johnny_, you are on 1.4.1 now? Apr 12 04:45:23 No one I work with seems to bothered by it. We largely discuss who the next rumored suitor will be Apr 12 04:46:25 To put things into perspective, I joined when the stock was $1 Apr 12 04:46:30 By that account, everything is peachy! Apr 12 04:46:33 chrisa, would you care if they got bought by someone else? as long as its just rumors, it's ok with you ? Apr 12 04:47:42 I have no idea what would happen if the company was bought, so I can't really speculate Apr 12 04:47:50 Sure, if we were bought then all fired that would be a downer Apr 12 04:47:55 heh Apr 12 04:48:05 Wait no, "laid off" Apr 12 04:48:17 the worst type of "laid" there is Apr 12 04:48:20 yes im on 1.4 now.. and i believe so the latest update. Apr 12 04:49:14 chrisa: "surplused" Apr 12 04:49:43 "made redundant" Apr 12 04:50:00 heya jacques Apr 12 04:50:06 I try not to worry about that sort of thing, I'm a youngin. I can find a new job if I have to Apr 12 04:50:13 hi ka6sox Apr 12 04:50:27 so, surprising news about palm - I wonder if it's true Apr 12 04:50:44 we were just discussing the rumors Apr 12 04:50:45 HTC, HP, Lenovo and Dell are ALL buying us Apr 12 04:50:54 ha ha ha Apr 12 04:51:17 It will be a King Solomon "Cut it in pieces see who loves it more" situation Apr 12 04:51:25 :-( Apr 12 04:51:26 when 3com took over usr the main concern was how much higher/how it would affect the share price Apr 12 04:52:27 I think a buyer would only want the patent portfolio to use as a club against competitors Apr 12 04:52:40 which would mean the end of webos Apr 12 04:53:00 and a world with only iphone and androis Apr 12 04:53:02 d Apr 12 04:53:11 i can not get my preware to load past the catalog part. i can only load if i down load the alpha. any ideas? brand new phone did all updates then installed preware my previous phones had no issues with pre ware. same problem with my daughters pixi. i have all current updates Apr 12 04:54:57 johnny_: what version of preware? Apr 12 04:54:59 johnny_, why not use the alpha then? Apr 12 04:55:05 ditto Apr 12 04:56:09 oh Apr 12 04:56:14 So uh, I'm trying to chat at #webos but I'm being told "Cannot send to channel" Apr 12 04:56:27 what gives? Apr 12 04:56:40 * oil looks to see if this is #webos Apr 12 04:56:56 eh Apr 12 04:57:16 No, but it the closest thing I know of. I can't tell who the ops are in the other channel. Apr 12 04:58:14 jjore1: try registering your nick Apr 12 04:58:16 with the nickserv Apr 12 04:58:32 Did, didn't help/ Apr 12 04:58:53 works for me Apr 12 04:59:44 it doesn't seem like you're identified with nickserv currently ? Apr 12 05:00:30 Nickserv says I'm already logged in. Apr 12 05:01:24 ah, nm. "Please check your email for instructions to complete your registration" Apr 12 05:02:22 bpadalino++ Apr 12 05:02:49 lol Apr 12 05:03:54 fwiw, I've never needed registration and it's irksome because some feature of freenode means some ancient registration for my normal nick has locked me out of this semi-perpetually. :-/ Apr 12 05:04:03 but I digress... ;-) Apr 12 05:04:37 jjore1: there was a time when there were some pretty ridiculous spammers coming in Apr 12 05:04:39 on a daily basis Apr 12 05:04:51 which, unfortunately, made a lot of channels change to registered only Apr 12 05:04:52 Which is an excellent reason to use that kind of block. Apr 12 05:06:04 Guys. What would you say are webos-internal's "Pièce de résistance" apps? Apr 12 05:06:11 (And patches for that matter) Apr 12 05:07:11 gcc Apr 12 05:07:21 overclocking, doom, facebook chat (tho that's simple), open office Apr 12 05:08:34 is gcc self hosting? I bet it is Apr 12 05:08:50 It /better/ be. Apr 12 05:09:30 if you mount a disk over nfs, yeah Apr 12 05:09:58 lol Apr 12 05:10:09 it should always be noted that most of what webos-internals does is really standing on the shoulders of palm giants and their usage of (and compliance with) open source software Apr 12 05:10:54 yeah, it's much more linux-like under the hood than android Apr 12 05:12:36 webos is what android markets itself as Apr 12 05:12:42 linux underneath Apr 12 05:24:47 bpadalino: I'm positioning it as conscious decisions to ensure an accessible and transparent platfrom has enabled lots of really interesting things. Apr 12 05:25:16 good perspective Apr 12 05:25:50 Hence standard libraries like SDL have lowered the effort to do things like SDL doom. Apr 12 05:27:37 And QT and ... Apr 12 05:27:51 JS + CSS have allowed all sorts of UI tweaks. Apr 12 05:28:18 novacom and Linux give all the tools people are used to. Apr 12 05:28:55 Meep, working on your CELF conf talk? Apr 12 05:30:09 Meep: the fact they distributed an easy way to get a root shell on the device is really amazing when compared to every other mobile device out there Apr 12 05:30:58 yep...thats pretty "active" to me Apr 12 05:32:01 no "jailbreaking" required. Apr 12 05:33:02 these days, not actively obstructing homebrew is supporting, and palm has done much better than that Apr 12 05:38:09 jacques: yes. Apr 12 05:38:36 Minimal hoops are better. Apr 12 05:39:47 I have really appreciated the palm devs hanging out here Apr 12 05:41:12 it's a wet gray day/night in san francisco Apr 12 05:47:52 The page http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Next_steps says it is deprecated but doesn't point at whatever's replaced it. Suggestions? Apr 12 05:48:23 jjore1: http://install.preware.org ? Apr 12 05:48:38 i think just using preware is the currently accepted method Apr 12 05:49:01 Yes, I've /got/ preware but I wanted ssh and quilt which seem to not be available in preware Apr 12 05:49:48 openssh should be in there i thought Apr 12 05:50:09 Wasn't, when I searched earlier. Apr 12 05:50:51 it seems to be part of the optware feed Apr 12 05:51:00 http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/optware/armv7/ Apr 12 05:51:46 Ok, not visible from the very friendly package manager then. Apr 12 05:52:31 I peeked a little at `ipkg list` but the terminal is soooo itsy and I didn't think I noticed it in `ipkg list | grep ssh` Apr 12 05:54:45 jjore1: you need to go to Manage Feeds Apr 12 05:54:48 and enable Optware Apr 12 05:54:52 then Update Feeds Apr 12 05:54:54 thought I had. Apr 12 05:54:56 it's all in the gui Apr 12 05:55:06 I mean, really. I thought I had everything enabled. Apr 12 05:55:18 i just enabled it on mine to verify and it works Apr 12 05:55:22 let me know if something is bustd Apr 12 05:57:29 Yes, it's all enabled. Rechecking that ssh doesn't appear (but now I've altered state by folllowing Next_Steps and Applying_Patches) Apr 12 05:58:18 jjore1: what version of preware are you using ? Apr 12 05:58:29 probably latest. Apr 12 05:58:43 \ Apr 12 05:58:55 i am able to go to Available Packages .. choose Feeds .. and Optware Apr 12 05:59:28 0.9.33. The name Optware shows up in my feed list. Apr 12 05:59:56 so under Available Packages .. and Feeds .. and Optware .. what happens ? Apr 12 06:00:12 says its ipkg.preware.org/feeds/optware/all ipkg.preware.org/feeds/optware/armv7 Apr 12 06:01:13 let me reiterate .. so under Available Packages .. and Feeds .. and Optware .. what is available ? Apr 12 06:01:30 for giggles, disabling all other feeds and re-updating to see what things this thinks is available from optware. Apr 12 06:04:17 Oh, well hmm. There was nothing additional on the Package Updates, Available Applications, Available Patches, that wasn't already actually installed. Apr 12 06:04:34 What I did noticed was "List of Everything" did have the Optware stuff I thought was missing. Apr 12 06:05:11 I thought reading the /^Available / lists was the right place to go. Whoops. Apr 12 06:09:05 Oh drat. I've apparently broken /something/ by following Next_Steps and Applying_Patches. Apr 12 06:09:48 I've got some patch to auto-ok the PIN lock but now it locks but w/o the yellow dot to unlock. Apr 12 06:10:22 whoops Apr 12 06:10:23 jjore1: try a reboot? Apr 12 06:10:36 Yes, well, doing that. Apr 12 06:12:39 woo. I get to avoid Doktoring the phone. Apr 12 06:13:22 good old reboot! before anyone panics they need to reboot Apr 12 06:14:00 Panic? Why panic? I could always copy files off if there were a problem. Apr 12 06:14:47 does this thing actually work? Apr 12 06:15:11 Yes? Apr 12 06:15:39 jjore1: silly people panic.. Apr 12 06:15:41 I keep seeing people log on and off very quickly Apr 12 06:15:51 ka6sox-mountain: what? Apr 12 06:16:03 with this java client thingy Apr 12 06:16:25 ka6sox-mountain: never used it :) Apr 12 06:17:10 karokee night! ahh! Apr 12 06:19:00 what did I miss? Apr 12 06:19:26 * Jack87-wIRC just joined Apr 12 06:20:58 Meep, when is your talk? Apr 12 06:21:18 jjore1: why use pin lock then patch to bypass pin? Apr 12 06:21:45 *cough* Apr 12 06:22:07 jjore1: I really do not understand.. please explain Apr 12 06:22:43 Sorry, no. Apr 12 06:22:52 I apologise. Apr 12 06:22:54 jjore1: ? Apr 12 06:23:08 ok Apr 12 06:23:32 just wondering if you know something I dont Apr 12 06:30:52 dead here tonight Apr 12 06:31:19 * Jack87-wIRC watches tumbling bush pass by Apr 12 06:32:48 lol Apr 12 06:33:00 we get some big ones here Apr 12 06:33:07 have to dodge em on the freeway simetimes Apr 12 06:33:11 sometimes* Apr 12 06:34:41 haha where are you oil ? Apr 12 06:35:55 ka6sox: about 2:30 tomorrow. Apr 12 06:39:01 Jack87-wIRC, the desert Apr 12 06:40:32 Nevada? Apr 12 06:42:02 Lalala! Apr 12 06:42:53 California is one big desert... Apr 12 06:43:04 yakima washington Apr 12 06:44:04 oh, thats a desert too Apr 12 06:44:10 like Bend Oregon Apr 12 06:44:14 Good wine there. Apr 12 06:44:43 its the "palm springs of washington" Apr 12 06:44:52 Utah is a gian desert! Apr 12 06:44:52 oil, were you there when Mt. St. Helens went off? Apr 12 06:45:33 the big one was 4 years before i was born Apr 12 06:47:17 so.. no? Apr 12 06:47:22 lol Apr 12 06:49:09 :) Oil is my age Apr 12 06:49:16 um....that would be a NO... Apr 12 06:49:48 * ka6sox-mountain came up there to work about 6months after that went off...still a mess Apr 12 06:50:08 yeah Apr 12 06:50:21 if you dig in our yard, so far down is nothing but ash Apr 12 06:50:41 wow! Apr 12 06:50:48 well Apr 12 06:50:50 a layer of ash Apr 12 06:50:51 then more dirt Apr 12 06:52:29 nightmares Apr 12 06:53:19 that trip I had to install a never-stop *nix system with RT kernel and then go out to all the remote locations and upgrade from 300baud to 1200baud....wooo Apr 12 06:55:03 everyone thought that was pretty zippy. Apr 12 06:55:37 * Jack87-wIRC doesn't know what zippy means Apr 12 06:55:47 on another subject..what kind of data rates are you seeing with the Pre for browsing and other data work? Apr 12 06:56:23 Jack87-wIRC: zippy means quick. Apr 12 06:56:31 responsive Apr 12 06:56:38 ka6sox-mountain: like mobile speed tests? Apr 12 06:56:47 ka6sox-mountain: roger that Apr 12 06:57:03 yes. mobile tests. Apr 12 06:58:52 300 to 1200 is quite the speed increase :) Apr 12 06:58:54 about 1Mb-1.5Mb normally sometimes 2 Apr 12 07:00:44 .. THAT's EVDO Apr 12 07:01:03 we had to re-learn how to bring up the line without going overpressure or starving the pumps. the timing was all off. Apr 12 07:01:15 not super accurate considering it only tests the one sever and speed can very by location Apr 12 07:01:43 jack, so what I see with my EVD card. Apr 12 07:02:39 the Nextel Data network is much slower. Apr 12 07:02:59 what do you see? Apr 12 07:03:09 200k-350k\ Apr 12 07:04:49 Mobile speed test\n1112 kbit/sec\n\n0.166s latency\n7.531s d/l time.again. Apr 12 07:05:04 * oil lol's @ \n's Apr 12 07:05:30 haha battery is dying and no car touch stone sad Apr 12 07:06:13 going to head home soon. Apr 12 07:06:17 no spare batttery? Apr 12 07:06:26 haha I have it Apr 12 07:06:40 I am too lazy to swap Apr 12 07:07:10 w/ bike I can get home before it dies I'm sure Apr 12 07:07:35 unless you get blown over by a tumbleweed. Apr 12 07:09:42 haha ya! lets hope that doesn't happen Apr 12 07:10:03 did you see my helmet pics last night? Apr 12 07:10:14 1 more programme to upload then I can go home too. Apr 12 07:10:17 silly as it sounds I didn't even use it to see how it works in action Apr 12 07:10:55 jack, ya...kewl...2.1 sound Apr 12 07:15:36 I"m glad this is almost done...somebody did an rm -rf on the whole Programme directory and over the wireless from the studio to the transmitter would have taken too much time to re-upload. Apr 12 07:16:42 even @ 54mbps it would have taken several days. Apr 12 07:17:18 outta here...catch y'all laters. Apr 12 07:26:01 re Apr 12 07:26:11 or your not gone yet Apr 12 07:26:16 lol Apr 12 07:27:22 huh Apr 12 07:28:42 probably cat on his keyboard :) Apr 12 07:30:03 dtzWill: I'm so confused! anyway how are you? Apr 12 07:30:09 oil: do you ever sleep? Apr 12 07:30:15 yeah Apr 12 07:30:27 its only 12:30 Apr 12 07:30:59 and i woke up Apr 12 07:31:04 at like 3pm? Apr 12 07:32:55 oil: haha roger that. Apr 12 07:34:39 oil: nice additions to preware Apr 12 07:35:14 rwhitby: what did he do? Apr 12 07:35:19 hella shit Apr 12 07:38:00 dtzWill: for some reason the latest kernel builds don't work for modules. trying to track down why. may have to git bisect and see where I broke it. Apr 12 07:39:18 oil: are you working on the alpha Apr 12 07:39:51 Jack87-wIRC: oil works on the Preware front-end (he does all the hard or sexy stuff) Apr 12 07:40:19 Jack87-wIRC: then the latest of that gets released as Preware Alpha, and when it's reasonably alpha tested it comes out in Preware Classic Apr 12 07:40:50 ooo I like sexy. Apr 12 07:41:00 so much has changes since I been away Apr 12 07:41:55 I guess the user base has grown so large that even 'Mom's' are using preware :) Apr 12 07:42:45 btw. palm is up for sale: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/11/bloomberg-palm-is-up-for-sale/ Apr 12 07:44:35 booyah Apr 12 07:46:52 geist: is there there truth in that? Apr 12 07:47:17 as if he could comment in here, or even at all Apr 12 07:47:18 read the article Apr 12 07:47:27 as if i know anything anyway Apr 12 07:47:31 i'm just a lowly engineer Apr 12 07:47:35 i wrangle bits Apr 12 07:47:48 rwhitby: you never know Apr 12 07:47:59 nothing here is ever official Apr 12 07:48:20 Jack87-wIRC: acquisition transactions are the most tightly controlled company communication scenarios there are Apr 12 07:48:21 I'm on pre going to read in a bit Apr 12 07:49:02 haha question is shall I sell my palm stock or not Apr 12 07:49:14 Jack87-wIRC: that's exactly why Apr 12 07:49:28 rwhitby: I'm new to this stuff. when companies get bought out does stock go up or down? Apr 12 07:49:54 just general question Apr 12 07:50:04 if there're many companies interested in buying the company, it should go up Apr 12 07:50:07 else down Apr 12 07:50:46 uNiXpSyChO: I'm going to start bisecting from f5c6093c3ae7532b05370b65a6fc9fbfaf5a5705 where I think it worked last Apr 12 07:51:07 bah Apr 12 07:51:50 geist: if you work for Palm, they'll tell you nothing because of insider trading laws Apr 12 07:51:56 exactly Apr 12 07:52:01 playya: thanks! Apr 12 07:52:02 nor do i want to know, due to the same laws Apr 12 07:52:24 geist: shitty situation if that's the case. I simply won't buy an iPhone Apr 12 07:52:29 the OS sucks balls Apr 12 07:52:33 Rules against insider trading on material non-public information exist in most jurisdictions around the world, though the details and the efforts to enforce them vary considerably. The United States is generally viewed as having the strictest laws against illegal insider trading, and makes the most serious efforts to enforce them. Apr 12 07:52:39 I'm not buying it. I don't think palm will go up for sale Apr 12 07:52:59 It'll require a lot of money to avoid that Apr 12 07:53:13 IMO, 1000 folks is too many for a two devices Apr 12 07:53:19 given a company that size Apr 12 07:53:32 maybe a good company buys it Apr 12 07:53:40 doubt it Apr 12 07:53:51 what'll happen is a company will buy it and then shelve the OS Apr 12 07:53:56 i would sell my pre if apple buys palm Apr 12 07:54:13 playya: I like palm :( I don't really like any other company Apr 12 07:54:19 if it was open sourced, then it would have a chance for life, but they're lagging on new hardware and other things Apr 12 07:54:41 The out of memory GC errors are problematic to say the least and should have beeen fixed ages ago Apr 12 07:54:51 * Jack87-wIRC is anti apple Apr 12 07:55:00 I'll probably go with Android in the future Apr 12 07:55:25 Their OS X is very good, their mobile platform is horrible Apr 12 07:55:29 * Jack87-wIRC is spoiled by webos Apr 12 07:55:48 bhuey: osx is great as a netbook os Apr 12 07:56:06 as in MacBook Apr 12 07:56:11 it's great for that Apr 12 07:56:22 the problem is the iPhone Apr 12 07:56:24 it sucks Apr 12 07:56:43 and will keep sucking after they implement this multitasking BS Apr 12 07:57:53 I can't believe Palm burnt through all of that money and didn't produce more Apr 12 07:58:18 bhuey: just more rumors Apr 12 07:58:49 and I ment as a netbook (like my acer is running snow leopard) Apr 12 07:59:00 Jack87-wIRC: I dbout it. With the recent multitasking announcement from Apple, it's hard to justify Web OS now even if we know it's inferior Apr 12 07:59:21 sorry, not sure what you're talking about Apr 12 07:59:43 palm is using some strange firmware modifications in pre. maybe this leaks the documentation Apr 12 07:59:50 but i like the UI Apr 12 08:01:02 Palm won't sell out. they would be fools! they hold the future to smarphones in their hands Apr 12 08:01:25 they also created the idea os smart phones Apr 12 08:02:03 one mistake (at least for europe) was the US-only flag Apr 12 08:02:11 doubt it with Android being this popular even though it sucks Apr 12 08:02:35 i hope. motorola won't buy palm Apr 12 08:02:36 If Bloomberg writes about it, it's probably true Apr 12 08:02:42 that would be a nightmare Apr 12 08:03:02 geist: when BSDi was sold to WindRiver, it was similar Apr 12 08:03:25 we never knew anything until they made the announcement 2 hours before the stockholder meeting Apr 12 08:04:03 bhuey, it *has* to be that way...otherwise there are too many problems. Apr 12 08:04:15 eh ? Apr 12 08:04:34 ka6sox: sorry, lost you Apr 12 08:05:09 you wouldn't know until it was all over and done and the stockholders were being told. Apr 12 08:05:21 right, insider trading otherwise Apr 12 08:05:39 it's normal that the press knows such things before the engineers get informed Apr 12 08:05:51 so sad. I was in denial about the entire thing believing all the things that Rubenstein said Apr 12 08:05:54 that prevents it...its always a shock to the people most affected. Apr 12 08:06:04 They probably had a some board meeting and decided it this week Apr 12 08:06:26 we're only hearing about it now, but it's likely to all be true Apr 12 08:06:44 ka6sox: I would have preferred that they cut staffing first Apr 12 08:07:10 jon said those things right before apple's keynote so it makes sense Apr 12 08:07:13 sizable companies have horrible bureaucracies Apr 12 08:07:31 Jack87-wIRC: about Palm's long term goals ? Apr 12 08:08:25 bhuey, I worked for one of the largest concerns in the 80's...one day my whole company (subsidiary) was shut down...and we were out of work. Apr 12 08:08:33 bhuey: yes Apr 12 08:08:56 ka6sox: yeah, it happens like that. I was like that at BSDi. Novell was like that as well. I was a 'blue sky' engineer there Apr 12 08:09:24 nice to have that position, but it would be nicer if the job was stable Apr 12 08:09:49 personally, I blame Silicon Valley arrogance and management Apr 12 08:09:51 can i contat Jon Rubinstein via email ? Apr 12 08:11:37 they did fire their marketing Apr 12 08:11:49 perhaps they have no use for? Apr 12 08:13:54 the company is too large for producing so little Apr 12 08:14:20 it would suprise me if the management below Rubenstein was bad and he didn't clean it out in time Apr 12 08:14:27 would=wouldn't Apr 12 08:14:37 most of silicon valley is like that Apr 12 08:14:39 it's why I left Apr 12 08:17:37 i worked for nokia while they closed the site in bochum (practical semester) Apr 12 08:18:11 we read it in the newspaper and then they announced it to everyone Apr 12 08:18:27 we thought it was a joke by the newspapers Apr 12 08:19:09 probably not, neither is the Palm news as well Apr 12 08:19:18 we'll hear about it more later this week I'm sure Apr 12 08:19:28 sad sad sad Apr 12 08:19:33 it's depressing! Apr 12 08:19:35 makes me angry more than anything else Apr 12 08:19:49 because the iPhone and Android all really suck Apr 12 08:20:08 bhuey: agreeded. Apr 12 08:20:43 can't blame anybody but Palm though Apr 12 08:21:00 they fucked up two times with Sprint and Verizon Apr 12 08:21:07 i have a milestone. hardware is nice, but they're using a signed bootloader Apr 12 08:21:13 didn't make any of the needed changed to survive Apr 12 08:21:22 that really sucks Apr 12 08:21:39 1000 folks just for two products ? Apr 12 08:21:48 highly inefficient Apr 12 08:22:35 and android seems to close all bugs which leads to rooting the phone -> sucks Apr 12 08:22:45 1000 what? Apr 12 08:28:35 hey guys Apr 12 08:31:07 bhuey: ah, you were in the bsdi thing eh? Apr 12 08:31:14 beng Apr 12 08:31:44 moin raster Apr 12 08:32:41 geist: yes, started my career in that Apr 12 08:32:53 knew some folks there back in the day Apr 12 08:33:08 was a big BSD fan back then Apr 12 08:33:09 geist: ex-BSDi, ex-NetApp-WAFL, ex-Novell. Pretty much a JVM + kernel engineer through and through Apr 12 08:33:17 geist: I know the BSD community well Apr 12 08:33:35 geist: I was responsible for the original HotSpot JVM port to all of the BSDs Apr 12 08:33:37 though i haven't seen him in a while, used to be pretty good friends with wpaul Apr 12 08:33:48 i think he's still at windriver, actually Apr 12 08:33:48 right, know him Apr 12 08:33:54 Intel Apr 12 08:33:59 it's hard not to know him. :) Apr 12 08:34:01 still in tough with those folks Apr 12 08:34:10 touch Apr 12 08:34:26 paul anderson, etc... borman brothers Apr 12 08:34:32 yeah, and when i worked at apple I talked quite a bit with the bsd crew there Apr 12 08:34:41 seem to be pretty good guys Apr 12 08:34:42 geist: the Apple crew there is different Apr 12 08:34:56 yeah, freebsd crew more than anything else Apr 12 08:34:56 there was a lot of political infighting then Apr 12 08:35:03 oh yeah :) Apr 12 08:35:07 major Apr 12 08:35:08 yes Apr 12 08:35:12 I have a 'rap' Apr 12 08:35:22 is why i quit apple. didn't like the politics Apr 12 08:35:26 right Apr 12 08:35:28 it dominates everything Apr 12 08:35:31 geist: you at Palm now ? doing what ? Apr 12 08:35:37 that's apple for ya :p Apr 12 08:35:41 well, Apple is doing very well Apr 12 08:35:44 and yet I'm still pondering an iPad Apr 12 08:35:50 yeah. kernel + bootloader + novacom + whatever Apr 12 08:35:59 so there's benefit in those kind of politics Apr 12 08:36:11 playya: yo yo yo Apr 12 08:36:16 geist: yeah, did I chat with you the other day ? Apr 12 08:36:21 probably Apr 12 08:36:42 about how bad the driver code is in the Linux kernel tarball that was released ? Apr 12 08:37:09 it's terrible Apr 12 08:37:12 That's part of the problem, they should have gotten real Linux kernel folks to do it Apr 12 08:37:23 bhuey: too much like logic :P Apr 12 08:37:34 bhuey: you talking about the pre kernel? Apr 12 08:37:56 geist: when i started to see a mutex in an interrupt path is when I realize that their embedded folks are coming from another background other than Linux kernel Apr 12 08:38:01 geist: yeah Apr 12 08:38:14 kay, so that kernel has issues Apr 12 08:38:24 trouble is most of it came from TI, before omap was mature in mainline Apr 12 08:38:28 you can't use a mutex there since stock Linux kernel doesn't have interrupt threads Apr 12 08:38:41 right, ok Apr 12 08:38:45 didn't know that Apr 12 08:38:59 at the time, it was the easiest way to get omap working Apr 12 08:39:03 it's mature now and you should use BFS (Con's stuff) on top of it Apr 12 08:39:18 TI has since changed their tune and is very big on mainline Apr 12 08:39:19 geist: well, you folks are using much newer code now right ? Apr 12 08:39:39 trouble is we had to customize it a lot, and its *very* non trivial to move to mainline and bring the customization with us Apr 12 08:39:53 right Apr 12 08:39:54 its been an ongoing project, but not quite there yet Apr 12 08:40:03 for new hardware that we're never going to see ? Apr 12 08:40:14 * bhuey sad Apr 12 08:40:16 now come on, i can't answer that Apr 12 08:40:17 * bhuey bummed Apr 12 08:40:25 geist: rhetorical question :) Apr 12 08:40:26 dont even ask stuff like tat or i'll be forced to leave Apr 12 08:40:41 bhuey, be fair here...he can't answer that stuff. Apr 12 08:40:43 anyway, we've been trying to get omap rebased on a newer kernel, on mainline Apr 12 08:40:52 and then we'd get preempt and smartreflex, etc Apr 12 08:41:00 kewl stuff. Apr 12 08:41:04 trouble is all in all it's not really any *better* as much as it's just newer Apr 12 08:41:07 geist: wasn't really wanting an answer as much as making a bummed comment btw. Apr 12 08:41:15 not meant to show any disrespct Apr 12 08:41:19 disrespect Apr 12 08:41:29 geist: yeah, I work on -rt Apr 12 08:41:54 hopefully, that'll all work out in the future Apr 12 08:42:00 so i dunno what we're gonna do about pre and bumping the kernel. it's not without substantial risks, etc Apr 12 08:42:12 right, like the big 1.4 move Apr 12 08:42:26 1.4 was fairly intolerable, 1.4.1.1 is much better Apr 12 08:42:28 as far as preempt I dont think we've seen much of a big deal with it on or off Apr 12 08:42:36 still that memory leak issues is a bitch though Apr 12 08:42:47 geist: it's game related Apr 12 08:42:48 the media guys were the ones that had to worry about it the most, and they pretty much just dealt with it Apr 12 08:42:51 also, use another scheduler Apr 12 08:42:58 one that doesn't have sleeper wakes Apr 12 08:43:18 maybe samsung will buy palm and we get an enlightened phone ;) Apr 12 08:43:22 we fooled with a lot of stuff, and chose the simplest and most effective one Apr 12 08:43:29 the problems come when you have to do a lot of VM ops Apr 12 08:43:50 maybe we should reevaulate it, but that's a hard sell Apr 12 08:43:54 the data structure walks are done with spinlocks held which contributes ot a lot of latency Apr 12 08:44:07 geist: well, use a different scheduler first Apr 12 08:44:09 BFS Apr 12 08:44:13 see what happens there Apr 12 08:44:13 making consumer electronics is mostly about compromises Apr 12 08:44:23 you never get what you want, you get what works Apr 12 08:44:28 definatly Apr 12 08:44:30 yeah, use to be at 2Wire so I now Apr 12 08:44:35 BFS wasn't in good enough shape back then Apr 12 08:44:36 know Apr 12 08:44:41 and not sure it applies against .24 cleanly Apr 12 08:44:45 well, it wasn't ported to those kernels Apr 12 08:44:52 it won't Apr 12 08:44:58 but i remember some talk about it when we were getting ready to ship Apr 12 08:45:06 but BFS gets rid of that 'lag' Apr 12 08:45:10 clearly was too late to dick with it Apr 12 08:45:26 oh yeah? you tested it? Apr 12 08:45:35 geist: I know Con personally Apr 12 08:45:39 i can bring it up again internally if you really really think it can Apr 12 08:45:51 geist: Android folks went to it because it fixed all of their lag issues Apr 12 08:45:58 they use to lurk on our channel Apr 12 08:46:00 yeah, but webos != android Apr 12 08:46:11 specifically a lot of the ui tends to get piled up on one big thread in webos Apr 12 08:46:11 yeah, so ? Apr 12 08:46:22 in one big process, so some of the tweaks dont work Apr 12 08:46:25 geist: you know about the sleeper boosting ? Apr 12 08:46:31 it's fighting itself Apr 12 08:46:39 and the problems it creates ? Apr 12 08:46:50 basucally there are 2 main threads in the ui. one that draws and one that does everything else Apr 12 08:46:57 afair the default scheduler behaves like BFS if you disable new fair sleepers Apr 12 08:46:58 the more you boost, the more lag goes to all threads in the system Apr 12 08:47:08 pretty lame, and removes most of the ability for us to do much at the kernel level Apr 12 08:47:20 geist: in X with BFS, I run 4+ movies and don't get a hitch Apr 12 08:47:30 geist: try it Apr 12 08:47:40 of course. but again, we're laregely single threaded Apr 12 08:47:44 then ping me here to discuss it if you want Apr 12 08:48:08 when we get un single threaded it's worth evaulating to see if it's worth the risk of a back port to .24 Apr 12 08:48:11 geist: ok so stuff like that is going to have less of an impact then right ? Apr 12 08:48:19 here's the thread on the openmoko ML: http://n2.nabble.com/For-all-ya-BFS-brain-fuck-scheduler-lovers-out-there-td3641087.html Apr 12 08:48:23 exactly Apr 12 08:48:37 geist: well, what about app start up ? Apr 12 08:48:54 btw, single threaded, web os still kicks amazing ass Apr 12 08:49:10 what about it Apr 12 08:49:22 is that going to be effected by it ? Apr 12 08:49:27 beats me Apr 12 08:49:33 I'm assuming some kind of fork() Apr 12 08:49:39 you're assuming wrong Apr 12 08:49:42 ok Apr 12 08:49:43 apps all run in one big process Apr 12 08:50:11 well, most of the heavy lifting at least Apr 12 08:50:22 if the app has a service back end that can run in another process or java or whatnot Apr 12 08:50:25 well, it's going to matter less then, maybe you'll run into an IO starvation or something with that GUI Apr 12 08:50:29 don't know Apr 12 08:50:58 yeah. webos has a lot of opportunity for optimization, and the ui/framework guys/gals are hard at work on that Apr 12 08:51:12 good, assuming they'll have jobs in a few months Apr 12 08:51:21 later Apr 12 08:51:25 bhuey, be nice. Apr 12 08:51:25 fucking hate that idea Apr 12 08:51:33 ka6sox: sorry Apr 12 08:51:58 damn Apr 12 08:52:11 I know, rite? Apr 12 08:52:46 I've never seen geist open up so much bhuey Apr 12 08:53:03 I dunno how you did it. but wow one wrong word Apr 12 08:53:54 Jack87-wIRC: yeah, well, he's probably not suppose to talk about all of this stuff Apr 12 08:54:07 that's one thing, the other is that I don't translate well over IRC Apr 12 08:54:27 bhuey: normaly he only answers questions never actually says stuff Apr 12 08:54:38 Jack87-wIRC: yeah, it might have been too mcuh Apr 12 08:54:45 my bad Apr 12 08:55:11 Well most of what you guys were talking about is beyond me anyhoo Apr 12 08:55:15 it's alright. just a shame is all no biggie Apr 12 08:55:42 Marajin: but it sounded good didn't it :) Apr 12 08:56:15 I dunno, it's 10am the day /after/ I got up, not much sounds like much of anything to me too Apr 12 08:56:21 it is interesting to hear that its only 2 threads mostly...there are definately some optimizations that could be made in that regard. Apr 12 08:56:24 about the only things that sound good at caffeine and nicotine :P Apr 12 08:57:58 Anyone want to dumb down the jist of the revelations? :p Apr 12 08:58:07 so I can try to insert it into my squishy brain Apr 12 08:58:57 the things that we are concerned about technically they are too. and they are working on solutions. Apr 12 08:59:21 ok that's too generalized, I can handle a modicom of technical :P Apr 12 08:59:29 what are "we" concerned about? :p Apr 12 08:59:55 speed, ease of use, expanding what the pre can do. Apr 12 09:00:19 hmm, don't find it slow, or hard to use, coupla extra features would be nice :p Apr 12 09:00:55 the scheduler stuff is real important as it makes it work better or worse (and has a great effect on battery life) Apr 12 09:01:12 well yeah, I have a rough idea how schedulers work, no worries Apr 12 09:01:14 Marajin: memory leaks (too many card error too often) Apr 12 09:01:28 ah those are a pain in the arse I concede Apr 12 09:02:01 poorly written apps :P Apr 12 09:02:07 * bhuey crosses his fingers about Palm Apr 12 09:02:16 seems to particularily be the heavy 3D games that do it Apr 12 09:02:19 I wonder if pre plus has same issue Apr 12 09:02:34 well doubled up on the RAM in that didn't they? Apr 12 09:02:39 just more memory and a few other bells Apr 12 09:02:48 and no center button! Apr 12 09:02:55 I like my glowy center button.. Apr 12 09:02:57 Marajin: the games are ported from iphone not made for the pre. which makes sense since iphone doesn't multi task Apr 12 09:03:30 * Jack87-wIRC has always hated center button but does enjoy the glow Apr 12 09:03:32 yeah, the speed and similarity between the versions on my iPod Touch and my pre kinda explained that Apr 12 09:03:39 oddly enough I find them faster on the pre Apr 12 09:04:28 *the speed of them appearing on the pre Apr 12 09:04:29 I should say Apr 12 09:05:26 I don't think that most of the memory leaks are because of the core webOS. That should be pretty solid. Apr 12 09:06:03 if games can be ported why not other native apps? Apr 12 09:06:31 because games don't rely as heavily on the UI apis and such I'd guess Apr 12 09:06:32 like? Apr 12 09:09:08 games don't use widgets Apr 12 09:09:13 see Apr 12 09:12:22 isn't that doctoring? Apr 12 09:12:53 sorry, head <-> keyboard accident Apr 12 09:16:22 say what asmw ? Apr 12 09:19:48 nite all Apr 12 09:20:56 sleep good Apr 12 09:22:32 Marajin: that last message was no intentionally sent here, my head dropped on the keyboard and did it Apr 12 09:22:41 s/no/not/ Apr 12 09:22:42 asmw meant: Marajin: that last message was not intentionally sent here, my head dropped on the keyboard and did it Apr 12 09:26:09 asmw: time for an electric shock device with an accelerometer trigger :p Apr 12 09:33:08 Marajin: good idea... Apr 12 09:33:16 Marajin: or: more coffee Apr 12 10:33:15 hmm Apr 12 10:33:56 oh, Palm... Apr 12 11:20:53 uNiXpSyChO: the kernel packaging problem is modules.dep Apr 12 11:21:20 I'm installing a built modules.dep, and it has no tisgxgfx stuff in modules.dep of course Apr 12 11:28:20 lol @ precentral article about bloomberg Apr 12 11:29:10 it's bumming the poop out of me, which part is the funny part en0x? Apr 12 11:29:58 the whole part Apr 12 11:30:18 what john said to cnn =! what bloomberg is saying Apr 12 11:30:34 i'm very... well. curious... how that will go on... Apr 12 11:30:50 it's just a speculation Apr 12 11:31:02 maybe palm stock will go up to 20 bucks :D Apr 12 11:31:22 yeah it does counter so much of what jon said, i'm very confused by it all. Apr 12 11:32:12 will see what they will say when CA wake's up ;] Apr 12 11:32:44 yeah, haha, i'm in CA and i couldn't go to sleep cuz this bothered me so much. yeah i'm a fanboy. Apr 12 11:32:57 i just read it before work today Apr 12 11:34:02 en0x: THAT's a thought i also had... palm stock could rise... Apr 12 11:37:51 * rwhitby keeps working on kernel packaging, irrespective of Palm owners Apr 12 11:38:11 rwhitby: sounds as it would make sense... Apr 12 11:38:37 i suspect webos would survive for a limited time just by community work, even when palm would stop all efforts... Apr 12 11:38:44 the phone that I have, and the OS that runs on it, is not going to change overnight Apr 12 11:39:19 right. it'll make a difference in 1 to 2 years, when i might want a new phone... Apr 12 11:39:28 rwhitby: so my pre won't turn into a pumpkin the second a sale of palm goes final? Apr 12 11:39:49 idontwan2know: nobody knows for sure... Apr 12 11:41:29 idontwan2know: depends if you're running a modified kernel or not ;) Apr 12 11:43:13 FWIW, if Palm is initiating this move itself, it's not necessarily a terrible thing, nor the end of the company as we know it. Apr 12 11:43:49 The practical upshot might simply be a big infusion of cash. Apr 12 11:46:03 It certainly doesn't seem like a firesale kind of situation where somebody buys the company simply for IP and then puts it all on a shelf. Apr 12 11:46:10 right. palm has cash to continue, which means that it can put conditions on the sale. Apr 12 11:46:39 yup Apr 12 11:48:21 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (v1.4.1-1@webos-internals.org) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #2 Sun Apr 11 11:55:42 CST 2010 Apr 12 11:49:16 sbromwich: kernel build works again. it was the overwriting of the modules.* which was causing the graphics modules not to load Apr 12 12:08:45 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (v1.4.1-1@org.webosinternals.kernels.palm-kernel-pre) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #4 Sun Apr 11 12:29:17 CST 2010 Apr 12 12:30:24 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (v1.4.1-2@org.webosinternals.kernels.uber-kernel-pre) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #3 Sun Apr 11 12:39:48 CST 2010 Apr 12 12:54:31 is there a way to get a text listing of all installed applications? Apr 12 12:57:39 djk: ipkg -o /media/internal/cryptofs list_installed Apr 12 13:01:02 djk: sorry, got that one wrong. It should have been ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps/ list_installed Apr 12 13:13:38 That doesn't seem to be working Apr 12 13:13:47 djk: the 2nd one? Apr 12 13:13:52 right Apr 12 13:13:53 djk: the 1st one won't work Apr 12 13:14:07 djk: you don't have your phone in USB mode, do you? Apr 12 13:14:20 no Apr 12 13:15:23 djk: http://webos.pastebin.com/0tWEB5kX Apr 12 13:15:23 my problem got the listing Apr 12 13:15:26 thankyou Apr 12 13:17:27 hello world. Apr 12 13:17:31 djk: there is also a palm service on the private bus that you can call, if you just want the list of mojo applications that webOS is aware of. Apr 12 13:17:57 webos quick search is not pulling down google/twitter/wiki or contacts/programs Apr 12 13:18:00 box: while I don't claim to represent the world, I will respond with 'hello' Apr 12 13:18:20 nt4cats the message was sent over many segments of the internet. Apr 12 13:18:21 I'm about to Doctor and want to get a listing of what I have installed Apr 12 13:18:40 djk: Preware can help you with that ... Apr 12 13:18:43 djk use the preware backup util eh? i think rwhitby is doing that Apr 12 13:18:56 salut Apr 12 13:19:43 I want to start fresh don't to pull anything I corrupted from the a backup Apr 12 13:19:59 djk: Use Preware's "Saved Package List" and Save/Restore. See http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew Apr 12 13:22:45 well. Apr 12 13:22:46 Thanks I'll give that a try Apr 12 13:22:58 rwhitby: I hand-installed optware on my Pre last year before it was available as a Preware feed. I doctored before 1.4.x and subsequently used Preware to install openssh et. al. from optware. Apr 12 13:23:03 quicksearch wont search.... u know, universal search Apr 12 13:23:16 rwhitby: I want to install some packages directly from the optware feed .. Apr 12 13:23:31 rwhitby: do I sill do ipkg-opt -o /opt install {package} ? Apr 12 13:23:40 s/sill/still/ Apr 12 13:23:40 nt4cats meant: rwhitby: do I still do ipkg-opt -o /opt install {package} ? Apr 12 13:24:45 when I looked yesterday I was surprised (maybe I shouldn't have been) to see that the optware packages I installed via Preware weren't managed by ipkg-opt ... Apr 12 13:24:54 i have bad patches? Apr 12 13:25:30 I will update the webos-internals.org wiki with this information once I have it confirmed ... Apr 12 13:25:34 nt4cats: ipkg-opt requires no -o option Apr 12 13:26:10 nt4cats: correct, the Preware packages in the Optware section are installed in /media/cryptofs/apps, and are not managed by ipkg-opt Apr 12 13:26:11 okay, so the 'correct' way to use the optware feed as packaged by Preware is "ipkg-opt install {package}" ... that seems quite straightforward Apr 12 13:26:42 nt4cats: no, that is the correct way to use "raw" optware packages, not packages that are in Preware Apr 12 13:26:53 good clarification -- that is what I meant Apr 12 13:27:12 (e.g. I want to toy around with Python on my Pre) Apr 12 13:27:25 for packages that are in Preware (mobi.optware.*) as opposed to "raw" Optware packages (no "mobi.optware" prefix), you should use Preware Apr 12 13:28:06 I will make sure to state the difference between raw and available-in-Preware Optware packages Apr 12 13:32:04 yelp Apr 12 13:33:20 ... Apr 12 13:33:27 what have i done Apr 12 13:36:45 nt4cats: I realise that it is confusing terminology, and am open to suggestions on how to rename something to make it easier to understand. Apr 12 13:37:37 * rwhitby posts http://bit.ly/next-gen-kernels Apr 12 13:38:16 rwhitby: I think the terminology makes sense and isn't hard to understand. A wiki page that lays it out (which I'm typing up in another window at this moment) will make this easy for the next person(s) Apr 12 13:38:33 nt4cats: awesome, thanks for doing that. Apr 12 13:38:51 * rwhitby notes that nt4cats has just gone to the top of his list of helpful people Apr 12 13:46:06 actually in writing this page it would be helpful to have a term that means "not raw". How about raw packages and feed packages (as in 'from the optware feed')? Apr 12 13:47:20 other option: raw and mobi.optware.* packages Apr 12 13:48:53 nslu2-linux.org optware packages and mobi.optware.* packages Apr 12 13:49:04 * rwhitby bbt Apr 12 13:49:56 hey, im trying to enable SSH via http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:OpenSSH#Enabling_non-root_Password_logins_via_SSH_using_the_command_line . I've followed all directions to the letter, but when i connect it says "server refused our key" Apr 12 13:50:19 oops, its just http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:OpenSSH, sorry Apr 12 14:13:55 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Optware -- first draft posted Apr 12 14:15:07 I can probably flesh it out a bit more, but the essential information is there. I welcome feedback at {myfirstname}@{mylastname}.com. Apr 12 14:15:15 ... and my name is Drew DeNardo Apr 12 14:15:52 (of course you're welcome to edit the page yourselves, too) Apr 12 14:16:31 i also do that Apr 12 14:16:35 first@last.com Apr 12 14:16:51 if they can remember your name.. they can remember your email address Apr 12 14:16:58 loot: exactly Apr 12 14:17:42 loot-: Did you register your own last name, or are you paying an evil we-went-out-and-registered-all-the-last-names-so-we-can-rape-people-for-money companies? Apr 12 14:17:56 i registered it myself Apr 12 14:18:11 luckily i have a unique last name Apr 12 14:18:13 loot: either your name is Snickelfartenberg, or you did it early Apr 12 14:18:22 both Apr 12 14:18:23 lol Apr 12 14:18:25 :) Apr 12 14:18:26 nt4cats: that's why you go register a country code domain (and if you're lucky there's something like us at the end ;)) Apr 12 14:18:35 hmm gmail is acting up Apr 12 14:18:52 hmmm what is .do? Apr 12 14:19:26 ( 07:19 Irssi: do is Dominican Republic Apr 12 14:19:33 /country XX Apr 12 14:19:38 or in bitchx Apr 12 14:19:39 do Apr 12 14:19:44 /eval echo $country(do) Apr 12 14:19:53 country is a script Apr 12 14:19:56 it isn't in my irssi Apr 12 14:20:00 hmmm denar.do, interesting Apr 12 14:20:56 that has geek appeal, but "{mylastname}.com" is easier for non-geeks to remember Apr 12 14:21:36 hah ok so i guess Apr 12 14:21:42 there is a country.pl for irssi Apr 12 14:21:46 while.do Apr 12 14:21:53 but im pretty sure its a stock item Apr 12 14:21:54 useful for when using reverse dns in package names :D Apr 12 14:21:57 do.while :p Apr 12 14:22:03 because i only added a few scripts to mine and that definitely wasnt one of them Apr 12 14:23:24 Whois -- No match for domain "SNICKELFARTENBERG.COM". Apr 12 14:23:35 lol Apr 12 14:25:24 dtzWill You around? Apr 12 14:26:56 Man I wish i would have though of that! I would have SO go my name Apr 12 14:27:07 go = got Apr 12 14:48:01 * PuffTheMagic tries not to post something dickish on the new kernel thread Apr 12 14:54:24 try all you might - resistance is futile! Apr 12 15:02:45 PuffTheMagic: url to the thread? Apr 12 15:02:51 i just wanna read it ;) Apr 12 15:07:09 its 2 posts long Apr 12 15:07:45 rod says, this new post is for uber kernel development... for all the cool new code we are going to add the to the kernel and all the super performance opitimzations Apr 12 15:08:03 and the secod post says "such asssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss?" Apr 12 15:21:57 lol Apr 12 15:25:51 wow the red on that post makes my eyes bleed, so I skipped it. didn't contain anything important, right? :) Apr 12 15:26:35 Major: I'm here :) Apr 12 15:27:11 dtzWill Welcome lol Apr 12 15:28:07 dtzWill You were gone last week when I came up with an idea to fix the problem you are running into with geature+? Apr 12 15:28:16 rwhitby: did it compile with preempt enabled to? I found a pile of preempt unsafe code Apr 12 15:28:52 rwhitby: I also found some great dodginess in... uhh... prcm_pwr.c? that I think might make me wipe and start afresh and fix that before I do anything else Apr 12 15:41:49 rwhitby: good work fixing the module dep stuff. I'll test that later, but your explanation sounds good :) Apr 12 15:42:33 Major: I'm not sure, sorry. Solutions are good. You mean the gesture+{x,c,v} issue? Apr 12 15:43:01 Yes Apr 12 15:43:59 dtzWill Yes i was thinking of using u,i,o,p it allows you easy access to the letters still follows the 4 letters in a row and your other fingers will not get i the way Apr 12 15:49:22 Major: but do we want to give up control+{u,i,o,p}? It's a possible solution, but I was hoping we wouldn't have to give up anything :( Apr 12 15:49:37 stupid non-full keyboard... :) Apr 12 15:51:42 dtzwill I do not see a command for abiword for control+U or the others. Are these ones you already made? Apr 12 15:53:06 Major: what about abiword? the bindings for X are for general purpose, at least presently Apr 12 15:53:15 OH Apr 12 15:53:36 Major: so if you can imagine any app ever, including terminal (and anything people chose to run in it) perhaps those keys have uses Apr 12 15:54:05 dtzWill are you are right on that.. I wasn't thinking big picture Apr 12 15:54:12 Major: they're probably LESS used than x,c,v, and so maybe we'll end up going your way--although it's messy to have normal keyboard, and then rearrange things with modifiers :). Apr 12 15:54:40 Major: I think i might be able to just switch sym/gesture lol :). sym+ being control, and gesture+ for the extra symbols, etc. since sym+{x,c,v} is nothing for now Apr 12 15:54:54 dtzWill: issues with option/shift/sym bindings? Apr 12 15:55:27 dtzWill I agree but unless we can force WebOS to accept the keyboard binding changes when in X we don't have much of a choice Apr 12 15:55:48 zsoc_wirc: well the issue we're discussing is that webos grabs gesture+{x,c,v} for cut,copy,paste functionality Apr 12 15:56:10 dtzWill that is just to easy Apr 12 15:56:14 lol Apr 12 15:56:26 zsoc_wirc: and I have gesture area be the 'control' modifier, so that means control+{x,c,v} don't work, control c of course being the most painful Apr 12 15:56:56 dtzWill: ... I don't follow. what's wrong with usin gesture as ctrl? Apr 12 15:57:12 oh, webos steals them? Apr 12 15:57:16 zsoc_wirc: webos steals them...yeppers Apr 12 15:57:23 hmm.. Apr 12 15:57:25 zsoc_wirc: so we never get those keys :( Apr 12 15:57:29 cccccombo breaker Apr 12 15:57:38 zsoc_wirc Yes Webos steals it and locks it down Apr 12 15:57:48 dtzWill: what about using pdl to turn off webos bindings Apr 12 15:58:00 pdl = pdk? Apr 12 15:58:11 zsoc_wirc: I haven't looked into it at /all/. so if there's pdl call for that then wonderful :) Apr 12 15:58:20 Major: libpdl is used in the pdk, yes, official api stuff Apr 12 15:58:49 dtzWill: there has to be. because while in 'official pdk' games, webos bindings seem to not work. I'll check into it Apr 12 15:59:49 zsoc_wirc: sounds good :). :D. that would be the best fix Apr 12 16:00:27 I bought gobs of PALM at 4.86 ... thinkin' about dumping today, as I don't wanna own any htc Apr 12 16:02:30 dtzWill: sorry, luna restart, didn't get anything for the last few mins Apr 12 16:02:41 dtzWill: PDLK_GESTURE_AREA Apr 12 16:02:49 as an SDL key event Apr 12 16:03:08 , /may/ work Apr 12 16:03:18 ghost_of_zsoc: yeah, although I'm known the value of that event from quake days :) Apr 12 16:03:22 s/I'm/I've/ Apr 12 16:03:22 dtzWill meant: ghost_of_zsoc: yeah, although I've known the value of that event from quake days :) Apr 12 16:03:37 ghost_of_zsoc: thank you though, I just double checked and yeah it's the same 231 I've been using Apr 12 16:04:05 dtzWill: so then it doesn't work? or is still overwritten by webos? Apr 12 16:04:55 ghost_of_zsoc: I can get gesture just fine--control+ various things works great. the x,c,v keys work fine by themselves, but the even gesture+x, c, v, etc all get eaten by webos Apr 12 16:05:03 morning guys Apr 12 16:05:03 ghost_of_zsoc: and I never see them, which is the deal breaker Apr 12 16:05:27 dtzWill: well that's garbage. make beelzabub1 fix it ;) Apr 12 16:05:31 beelzabub1: mornin Apr 12 16:05:37 make me fix what? Apr 12 16:05:59 ghost_of_zsoc: it's possible that I can hack a solution, but I haven't had chance to trace the events more than not getting them Apr 12 16:06:13 ghost_of_zsoc: well it's clearly for cut/copy/paste--hopefully we can disable that, idk Apr 12 16:06:28 well today wasn't a pleasant day reading the news - just got back from camping Apr 12 16:06:56 beelzabub1: apparently gesture+c,x,v are completely eaten by webos and never make it to sdl apps... I doubt it's in your control, more of a joke :) Apr 12 16:07:11 beelzabub1: yeah :/ well, it's good news for stock holders, heh Apr 12 16:07:17 i'm a stock holder too Apr 12 16:07:29 i like the price - that was nice Apr 12 16:07:34 well, good news for stock holders who don't also work for palm. Apr 12 16:07:36 just a shame if the sale rumours are true Apr 12 16:07:45 I tried to buy some under 6 this morning.. couldn't. Apr 12 16:07:49 i think it might be a shame for customers Apr 12 16:07:56 I agree. Apr 12 16:08:07 I hate to see webos get fragmented like android is. Apr 12 16:08:33 I hope that the rumors are not true Apr 12 16:08:58 I'm afraid that whoever buys it will just be buying it for the patents Apr 12 16:09:35 Has anyone figured out what triggers luna restarts? I can reproduce it with almost 100 percent repeatability by running a C service/app with lots of json parsing and a mediaserver app (ie, wirc and pandora) Apr 12 16:09:40 i think that's the rumour and from a certain aspect i guess that may be true. i don't think that'll happen in reality, but it really depends on who buys us i guess Apr 12 16:10:14 ghost_of_zsoc: what kind of C service? & what json library? Apr 12 16:10:33 ghost_of_zsoc: udelay in prcm_pwr.c is my current hunch Apr 12 16:11:06 uh, well wirc uses the LS on the public bus, I think, and lib mjson Apr 12 16:11:07 see my burblings in the irc logs from ~12 hours ago Apr 12 16:11:26 sbromwich: that's possible. I don't think it happens if I use nodoze with 'screen always on' Apr 12 16:11:35 will read logs, ty Apr 12 16:11:59 also I found disabling audiod does not help for voice functionality *cough* Apr 12 16:12:10 ha Apr 12 16:12:19 lol - i found that out a while back as well Apr 12 16:12:31 i was trying to make a phone call & I was like - why can't I hear anyone Apr 12 16:13:37 beelzabub1: afaict, phone call audio is handled outside of pulse/alsa Apr 12 16:13:58 i think i disabled pulse & mediaserver too Apr 12 16:14:00 it seems there are address assignments being handed directly to the driver somewhere Apr 12 16:14:22 i have only a 5000ft view of the audio path & even then it's kinda foggy Apr 12 16:14:29 I can make phone calls with pulse and mediaserver disabled... but audiod seems to be necessary Apr 12 16:15:30 you were certainly know better than me tho Apr 12 16:16:33 zsoc_wirc: hmm maybe PDL_GesturesEnable would do it? but I don't wanna nuke wave bar/etc :(. Apr 12 16:17:07 zsoc: wouldn't be too sure Apr 12 16:17:08 I'm still trying to figure out if phone call audio is handled in such a 'native' manner to make it harder to record/capture, or if it's simply just to give it higher priority (which is likely I suppose) Apr 12 16:17:25 dtzWill: well what do we lose really? Apr 12 16:17:49 zsoc_wirc: .....the wave bar and advanced gestures. it doesn't say if it enables/disables copy/paste etc Apr 12 16:18:07 zsoc_wirc: i suspect it's actually neither. it may be that the HW is simply wired where the phone must have a direct path to the audio device Apr 12 16:18:07 zsoc_wirc: but if it doesn't support those events in ANY capacity on sdl apps, then why capture them at all :( Apr 12 16:18:23 but i don't really know either way Apr 12 16:18:40 fwiw audiod.141 is somehow triggering a non-preempt-safe bug that audiod.140 doesn't Apr 12 16:18:56 argh. first session at celf, guy is presenting using a windows machine Apr 12 16:19:11 in powerpoint Apr 12 16:19:53 powerpoint is the shit - best presentation software ever. Apr 12 16:20:54 I am forced to agree with you beelzabub1 Apr 12 16:21:23 I'm still thinking about setting up a pulse Sink and Sink.monitor and rerouting the phone audio to the proxy, all the hw calls are all in plain text files Apr 12 16:21:37 powerpoint? eh... never really impressed me. Apr 12 16:21:39 actually i can't even tell if i'm being sarcastic or not - i grew up on that stuff & after about office 2003 they made it a lot easier to work with. i think it's just what happens when stupid people make ugly ass presentations & the software makes it easy to add effects that look "snazzy" without adding anything to the presentation Apr 12 16:22:11 jacques: have you used Impress? Apr 12 16:22:28 zsoc_wirc, yeah I used it to make the lightning talk presentation for scale Apr 12 16:22:35 I really like impress. maybe I force myself tho. Apr 12 16:22:47 zsoc_wirc, I likes it just fine. no complaints Apr 12 16:23:13 jacques: keep us up to date on celf ^_^ is mousey there? Apr 12 16:23:40 zsoc_wirc, it would rock if he was, but I haven't heard anything about him being here - have you? Apr 12 16:24:03 Meep is giving a talk later today Apr 12 16:24:06 I haven't seen him in a few weeks actually. Apr 12 16:24:16 * zsoc_wirc doesn't know meep past the name... Apr 12 16:24:33 unfortunately it's at same time as "Measuring Responsiveness of Linux Kernel on Embedded System" which I really need to see Apr 12 16:24:46 jacques: any Enlightment stuff on the schedule? Apr 12 16:25:07 zsoc_wirc, let me look - BTW, it's here: http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_2010/program.html Apr 12 16:25:14 there is an intro to QT Apr 12 16:25:34 not remotely same thing I know - but slightly relevant to me Apr 12 16:26:12 this talk should be ... interesting: "Keynote: Android: A Case Study of an Embedded Linux Project Apr 12 16:26:12 Greg Kroah-Hartman" Apr 12 16:27:16 would be awesome if I knew someone here - would have someone to eat dinner with Apr 12 16:27:32 make friends :D Apr 12 16:27:41 there are tons of good sushi restaurants in walking distance - in japantown Apr 12 16:28:04 zsoc_wirc, I am a serious introvert and don't make friends easily Apr 12 16:28:17 "effective use of RT, preempt" heh Apr 12 16:28:26 jacques: most linux guys are Apr 12 16:28:39 zsoc_wirc, I'm going to that one Apr 12 16:28:42 geist: mornin, sorry about the news Apr 12 16:28:53 howdy geist Apr 12 16:29:00 sup Apr 12 16:29:22 just talking about the CELF embedded linux conf going on now Apr 12 16:29:52 jacques: there's gotta be some palm guys there no? go to dinner with them :) Apr 12 16:30:16 zsoc_wirc, only palm guy here I know of is meep Apr 12 16:30:32 so find meep, tell him you're lonely lol Apr 12 16:30:36 not i, i'm sitting at lake tahoe in the snow Apr 12 16:30:46 geist: that sounds divine Apr 12 16:31:07 geist: did they have a huge dumping this weekend? Apr 12 16:31:18 I think I might type faster on a palm keyboard than an ipad. that's sad. Apr 12 16:31:29 not huge, but it snowed a few inches last night Apr 12 16:32:00 hmmm - it really sucks that the lease ends half-way through april Apr 12 16:32:05 i know Apr 12 16:32:05 i thought we had it until the end of the month Apr 12 16:32:21 yeah, totally shitty Apr 12 16:32:26 zsoc_wirc, lol that might be taken the wrong way Apr 12 16:32:34 Palm leases a vacation spot? Apr 12 16:32:35 though really, despire the snow most of kirkwood is closed at this point Apr 12 16:32:45 oh - well that sucks even more Apr 12 16:32:52 just 5 or 6 of the front bowl runs Apr 12 16:32:53 zsoc_wirc - no. we have our own ski lease Apr 12 16:32:57 jacques: maybe not in those exact words :) Apr 12 16:33:03 beelzabub1: ah, sexy Apr 12 16:33:06 apparently powerpoint can animate text Apr 12 16:34:05 oh well, there's still a hot tub Apr 12 16:34:14 time machine? Apr 12 16:34:25 alas no, just a snowed in hot tub Apr 12 16:35:10 i wish - then we could take our current releases and jump back a year :) Apr 12 16:35:21 *Dramatic Cactus* Apr 12 16:40:24 This is frustrating I have turned backup off and said delete all security run doctor yet apps are still showing up Apr 12 16:41:03 djk1: are you sure you deleted the .palm folder in /media/internal? those survive regular wipe Apr 12 16:41:24 if you do a full wipe you'll lose everything on the device if i recall correctly Apr 12 16:41:53 Grrr Apr 12 16:42:03 the zune hd needs to go on sale right now Apr 12 16:44:54 The full wipe didn't seem to do it. Apr 12 16:45:18 I will see about the /media/internal. 3rd time lucky Apr 12 16:45:22 i hope Apr 12 16:45:38 are you sure you did a full wipe? Apr 12 16:45:42 that takes about 20 minutes Apr 12 16:45:44 if not more Apr 12 16:47:11 full full wipe takes a long time Apr 12 16:47:17 rassin frassin MMC Apr 12 16:47:55 yeah - i don't remember what the actual times were. thinking about it more, i believe it was a couple of hours or more Apr 12 16:49:32 yeah, depends on the size and vendor of the part Apr 12 16:49:41 though we aren't using the erase command, just writing zeros Apr 12 16:49:58 what does the mmc erase command do? Apr 12 16:50:16 doesn't that just clear the mappings the flash has? Apr 12 16:51:37 that's the problem. depends on the vendor Apr 12 16:51:43 some do, some dont Apr 12 16:51:52 and then it only erases on vendor-specific erase boundaries Apr 12 16:52:03 i hate flash Apr 12 16:52:06 which are usually pretty high, in the multi-MB range Apr 12 16:52:31 dont be a hater Apr 12 16:52:48 geist, writing zeroes? not 0xff's ? Apr 12 16:52:57 yes did the full wipe. Looks like it just the Palm Apps that are restoring so I might just move forward once those complete and not try to remove all of them Apr 12 16:52:59 Thanks Apr 12 16:53:17 jacques: doesn't matter, goes through the translation layer Apr 12 16:53:18 what do you mean by palm apps? Apr 12 16:53:51 and modern MLC nand flash isn't all 0xff for the erased state Apr 12 16:53:57 tends to depend on which side of the page you get Apr 12 16:54:28 the ones from the Palm App site not precenteral etc Apr 12 16:54:39 geist, wow, I had no idea Apr 12 16:54:49 MLC flash changes a lot of things Apr 12 16:54:54 makes the wear levelling much harder Apr 12 16:55:01 if you sign in to an existing profile the apps from that profile get restored Apr 12 16:55:03 we use tons of SLC Apr 12 16:55:09 not that we have anything to do with it, since MMC handles the translation for you Apr 12 16:55:10 so even if you turned off backup, at some point it must have run Apr 12 16:55:17 but I have little experience with MLC Apr 12 16:55:22 but i had at least one sit down with the flash vendor to get them to describe the internals Apr 12 16:55:25 that's my guess Apr 12 16:55:34 you know those MMC flash parts have an ARM7 and a rtos on em? Apr 12 16:55:39 i'm still not clear on what you are seeing vs what you expect Apr 12 16:55:46 i knew they had a controller, i just didn't know they were that sophisticated Apr 12 16:55:51 lol no I didn't know that Apr 12 16:56:18 didn't think they needed nearly that much processing power Apr 12 16:56:20 we once got a firmware upgrade from one of the vendors and i took a look at the dissassembly. ARM code for sure Apr 12 16:56:39 beelzabub1: yes I think I recalling having to manually delete all apps the last time I went for the fully clean Doctoring Apr 12 16:56:59 once they described the algorithm to do the wear levelling, it was petty clear you needed something bigger than a PIC or 8051 Apr 12 16:57:04 geist, will you be at the palm dev days? Apr 12 16:57:19 i dunno. i've never heard of em Apr 12 16:57:28 :- Apr 12 16:57:31 :-( Apr 12 16:57:42 i'm sure i can stop by though Apr 12 16:57:50 when is it? Apr 12 16:57:54 https://secure1.regsvc.com/registration/index.aspx?TYPE=E&ID=2&LC=&PIN=&REF=&dbGUID=9A3C79FD-7BAA-4866-BFBD-E1385AA7935C& Apr 12 16:58:07 Friday, April 23rd & Saturday, April 24th Apr 12 16:58:21 at sunnyvale i guess? Apr 12 16:58:26 yup Apr 12 16:58:28 ah yeah Apr 12 16:58:29 geist, yep Apr 12 16:58:41 probably in the auditorim in SV1 Apr 12 16:58:43 * jacques will be there Apr 12 16:58:46 probably Apr 12 16:59:11 it says building 1 lobby level FWIW Apr 12 16:59:17 yep Apr 12 16:59:25 what time? Apr 12 16:59:36 bottom floor of SV1 is the usual meeting place. it's largely unlocked and has the cafeteria and auditorium, etc Apr 12 16:59:50 ahh - there's an agenda on that site Apr 12 17:00:07 beelzabub1, yeah, that's everything I know about it Apr 12 17:00:43 Urg Apr 12 17:00:57 i dunno how much i can contribute since i'm not on the mojo side of things, but i'll try to stop by at some point Apr 12 17:01:00 Want my zune to get here before I leave to drive up for dev days Apr 12 17:01:05 geist, stop by on friday - I am not too interested in the intro stuff, but saturday sounds good Apr 12 17:01:08 :-D Apr 12 17:01:15 yeah, the agenda is to get all the good devs out there, freeze dry them and bring them on the great spaceship with us to alpha centauri Apr 12 17:01:27 shhhhh - don't spook them Apr 12 17:01:43 oh and sorry beelzabub1, you're canadian Apr 12 17:01:45 can't come Apr 12 17:01:57 ouch :-) Apr 12 17:01:59 pffft - didn't wanna come on your stupid spaceship anyways Apr 12 17:02:00 H Apr 12 17:02:01 A Apr 12 17:02:20 wait - didn't texas secede anyways? don't think you can go either Apr 12 17:02:55 :-| Apr 12 17:03:16 wawaWAAAA Apr 12 17:04:50 if palm asked, I would be happy to do my webos-internals presentation at the dev days :-D Apr 12 17:05:05 i really hope lenovo doesnt buy palm Apr 12 17:05:08 they'll ruin it Apr 12 17:05:09 :( Apr 12 17:05:10 I still have the slides pdf on my pre Apr 12 17:05:17 loot-, sadly, I must agree Apr 12 17:05:33 HTC would probably not ruin it entirely Apr 12 17:05:36 sadly, because I was a thinkpad fan from way back Apr 12 17:05:43 i suspect htc would only buy us for the patents Apr 12 17:05:55 beelzabub1: and the name Apr 12 17:05:56 my guess would be that under htc webos would be on its deathbed Apr 12 17:06:11 loot-, real question in my mind is, who would keep webos ? Apr 12 17:06:12 palm was the iconic mobile computing device Apr 12 17:06:17 i dont see them selling off the name Apr 12 17:06:53 I love webos compared to the competitors, but it takes a company with dedication to keep at it in the face of android and WM7 Apr 12 17:06:56 HTC will do one of 2 things Apr 12 17:07:11 they're either strip palm bare and dust bin it Apr 12 17:07:19 esp with google paying companies to use android (I always suspected that) Apr 12 17:07:31 or they'll splice palm into their big business machine Apr 12 17:07:40 and leverage the name and having their own OS Apr 12 17:07:52 lenovo would sell out in a millisecond - they already did wrt windows and even admitted it Apr 12 17:08:52 lenovo will use 5 year old workers Apr 12 17:08:58 and the case will contain 90% lead Apr 12 17:09:03 hmm, wonder if there are any decent DVI -> display port connectors Apr 12 17:09:04 AFAICT lenovo currently has no principles other than maximizing short term profit Apr 12 17:09:24 i know someone that just got a new lenovo laptop Apr 12 17:09:27 and its craptastic Apr 12 17:09:34 geist: Displayport to dvi or dvi to displayport? Apr 12 17:09:35 loot-, what model? Apr 12 17:09:37 one of those new dual screen core i7 lappys Apr 12 17:09:41 i think its a 701ds? Apr 12 17:09:44 the latter Apr 12 17:09:48 that bitch is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE Apr 12 17:09:50 why.... Apr 12 17:09:53 biggest laptop ive ever seen in my life Apr 12 17:09:55 loot-, ouch that's like a $3600 machine Apr 12 17:10:04 its bigger than dell small form factors! Apr 12 17:10:11 thinking of getting an imac, and i might want to also use the screen for the times when i cant avoid windows Apr 12 17:10:14 jacques: $5500 with all the bells and whistles Apr 12 17:10:18 geist, I think those are $$$ because they have to do active processing Apr 12 17:10:19 hence, dvi to displayport Apr 12 17:10:20 he slapped an intel x25-e in it after too Apr 12 17:10:26 that's what i was assuming too Apr 12 17:10:37 since displayport is not particularly simple Apr 12 17:10:37 Hmmmm Apr 12 17:11:12 i only have 1 case where i cant avoid windows Apr 12 17:11:15 geist, ppl were looking for them to drive apple monitors (displayport only) from DVI ports, and there was no inexpensive answer last I saw Apr 12 17:11:17 freaking itunes Apr 12 17:11:18 POS Apr 12 17:11:31 jacques: yeah, that's what i was assuming Apr 12 17:11:34 its so god awful slow with virtualbox usb Apr 12 17:11:37 and half the time crashes etc Apr 12 17:11:54 so you pretty much just have to use windows and itunes if you plan on using an ipod or iphone Apr 12 17:12:04 loot-, so what's crappy about the 701ds? we currently spec thinkpads and I like to keep up Apr 12 17:12:04 but on a mac... thats not an issue Apr 12 17:12:15 jacques: its freaking huge? Apr 12 17:12:24 its the biggest laptop ive ever seen in my entire life Apr 12 17:12:32 loot-, size alone != crap tho Apr 12 17:12:42 uh Apr 12 17:12:45 when it weighs like 20 pounds Apr 12 17:12:53 it's meant to be huge - what is the quality of the main display? Apr 12 17:12:54 and is so huge it doesnt fit on a regular desk? Apr 12 17:12:57 ya thats a pretty big negative Apr 12 17:13:03 I think it has RGB LED backlighing Apr 12 17:13:13 the displays are alright Apr 12 17:13:13 but Apr 12 17:13:20 the dual screen that slides out of the main screen Apr 12 17:13:24 is slightly off color Apr 12 17:13:29 thinkpads no have RGB LED's Apr 12 17:13:32 nit/contrast are about the same Apr 12 17:13:51 plus Apr 12 17:13:56 it wont boot esata devices Apr 12 17:13:58 which is also stupid Apr 12 17:14:22 i think i'd rather buy a desktop before i bought one of those gigantic laptops Apr 12 17:14:35 probably just as difficult to move around :P Apr 12 17:14:56 i thought alienware made giant laptops... until i saw that thing Apr 12 17:15:13 well, its got a specific target audience Apr 12 17:15:21 whats the point? Apr 12 17:15:25 targetted at idiots? Apr 12 17:15:35 why buy a giant laptop? that defeats the purpose entirely Apr 12 17:15:35 Naw Apr 12 17:15:42 For mobile graphics people Apr 12 17:15:49 the entire point of it being a laptop is mobility Apr 12 17:15:50 dude Apr 12 17:15:51 its NOT mobile Apr 12 17:16:00 the battery lasts like an hour in windows Apr 12 17:16:03 and it weighs 20 fucking pounds Apr 12 17:16:05 halfhalo_T400, I read the W701 has it as an option for main display Apr 12 17:16:05 trying lenovo's site now, but network here at conf is kinda slow Apr 12 17:16:05 infobot, status Apr 12 17:16:06 Since Thu Apr 8 23:11:50 2010, there have been 0 modifications, 114 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 89 commands. I have been awake for 3d 18h 4m 16s this session, and currently reference 116950 factoids. I'm using about 21540 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 8681.53/240.73 child 0.09/0.06 Apr 12 17:16:08 hrm, it'd actually be cheaper to buy a new graphis card for the PC that supports displayport directly Apr 12 17:16:20 and its the size of like 4 normal laptops Apr 12 17:16:24 is it possible to change the cmdline bootie passes to the kernel? Apr 12 17:16:30 Well, let me put it this way Apr 12 17:16:48 which is easier to carry: a sff pc and two screens or a 17" laptop Apr 12 17:16:53 playya: yep, but only easily one time Apr 12 17:17:03 to say, clients office's and whatnot Apr 12 17:17:08 though with some hackery of the nvram section you can modify the env section Apr 12 17:17:09 that's enough for testing Apr 12 17:17:09 halfhalo_T400: if its the 701ds you dont get 2 full screens Apr 12 17:17:12 the second screen Apr 12 17:17:15 is a giant waste of money Apr 12 17:17:18 I know Apr 12 17:17:19 its useless Apr 12 17:17:27 but people use it for PS stuff Apr 12 17:17:27 atm I'm using novaterm to boot my kernel over USB Apr 12 17:17:34 halfhalo_T400, option for W701: 17" WUXGA RGB-LED-BL [add $175.00] Apr 12 17:17:37 honestly? Apr 12 17:17:44 playya: if you novaterm in you can setenv the commandline Apr 12 17:17:52 an imac with a cinema display would be easier to move around than the 701ds Apr 12 17:17:57 i dont think you understand Apr 12 17:18:00 how gigantic it really is Apr 12 17:18:08 I do Apr 12 17:18:15 I have played with one before Apr 12 17:18:21 a 701ds? Apr 12 17:18:24 they just came out.. Apr 12 17:18:33 they arent even in stores Apr 12 17:18:34 The model before it Apr 12 17:18:36 you have to special order it Apr 12 17:18:37 700 Apr 12 17:18:40 ya dude Apr 12 17:18:42 its WAY Apr 12 17:18:44 WAAAAAAAAAY bigger Apr 12 17:19:09 the screen part is 2" thick on the 701ds Apr 12 17:19:35 yeah Apr 12 17:19:51 i should have taken a picture for comparison sake Apr 12 17:19:56 like Apr 12 17:19:58 put my pre on it Apr 12 17:20:11 in comparison its like Apr 12 17:20:29 the lenovo w701ds is like an aircraft carrier Apr 12 17:20:34 geist, if i use setenv bootconsole ttySAC0 i can just quit novaterm and use boot mem:// to start the kernel? Apr 12 17:20:34 and the pre is like an inflatable dingy Apr 12 17:20:35 haha Apr 12 17:20:48 playya: yep Apr 12 17:20:58 you dont really need to quit novaterm, it'll quit when it starts the kernel Apr 12 17:21:21 plus i never liked bleeding edge high end laptops Apr 12 17:21:28 they always die quickly because of heat problems and what not Apr 12 17:21:41 consumer laptops, yes Apr 12 17:21:45 buisness laptops, not so much Apr 12 17:21:57 they dont really make high end business laptops though Apr 12 17:22:10 I beg to differ Apr 12 17:22:30 Dell's Latitude; HP Elitebook; Lenovo's W/T/X series Apr 12 17:22:33 I need a good modern laptop and I have no idea what to get - everything sucks Apr 12 17:22:40 latitude is not business Apr 12 17:22:44 er wait Apr 12 17:22:47 thinking of the other Apr 12 17:22:55 i have a latitude d630... its far from high end Apr 12 17:22:59 any latitude is not really high end Apr 12 17:23:05 I need high res screen, good fast graphics that work under linux, fast proc and lots of RAM Apr 12 17:23:11 they make core i7 latitudes? no :P Apr 12 17:23:15 middle mouse button would also be nice ;-) Apr 12 17:23:26 The D630 is a workhorse, and a middle of the road model Apr 12 17:23:30 biab - changing rooms Apr 12 17:24:00 point being they dont make those high end Apr 12 17:24:14 * geist pats his macbook pro Apr 12 17:24:20 you need a "precision" to get high end Apr 12 17:24:30 hmm Apr 12 17:24:30 and thats where you start getting away from business and going to consumer Apr 12 17:24:32 I carried toshiba for years and years, but about 15 months ago, my toshiba died dead all at once and I -had- to have a new laptop that day, so ended up at Bestbuy and grabed a Dell Inspiron 1525. Apr 12 17:24:47 Which ws cheap, and has worked find for my for 15 months, but I'm ready for a faster CPU. Apr 12 17:25:14 Consumer laptops seem to do what I need to do, but then, i don't do video, I don't do audio much.... Apr 12 17:25:23 and you know, pretty much ANYTHING runs a text-editor. Apr 12 17:26:00 back Apr 12 17:26:13 The e series latitudes are considered high end buisness laptops. Assuming you dont get hte lowest spec Apr 12 17:26:33 they're tanks, i think Apr 12 17:26:40 in a good way, if you dont mind the weight Apr 12 17:26:58 Weight has become an issue for me. Apr 12 17:27:04 I think 14" is the sweet spot Apr 12 17:27:06 am considering either lenovo thinkpad or apple macbook pro Apr 12 17:27:18 halfhalo_T400, yeah t410/s Apr 12 17:27:33 I just with they had an IPS panel option, and faster graphics Apr 12 17:27:43 Look at the HP buisness line Apr 12 17:27:45 well Apr 12 17:27:45 I have decided that I just can't handle weight, that 14" is my sweet spot, and I plug in a big secondary monitor when I'm at home or work... Apr 12 17:27:51 normally i would never suggest dell Apr 12 17:27:54 i hate their servers Apr 12 17:27:55 but Apr 12 17:28:01 I'm not too big on dell Apr 12 17:28:04 dell just makes good durable work horse laptops Apr 12 17:28:09 compared to most others Apr 12 17:28:14 ive had every brand laptop known to man Apr 12 17:28:18 including toshiba sparc based laptops Apr 12 17:28:27 none of them stand the test of time like a dell business laptop Apr 12 17:28:57 And I've quit buying "business" laptops. I get the cheapest major brand I can find with the processor and ram I want, and then, I expect to recycle it and get another. life cycle is 12 to 18 months. Apr 12 17:29:03 panasonic tough books are good but specifically for tough applications and ive never seen one run more than a few years Apr 12 17:29:04 (don't forget their warrenties cover just about anything) Apr 12 17:29:08 I also like the specs of the sony vaio Z Apr 12 17:29:36 i had a sony vaio Apr 12 17:29:42 2 of them in fact Apr 12 17:29:49 Vaio's are nice, but SOOOOOO pricy Apr 12 17:29:50 one way back with it was a p3 650mhz Apr 12 17:29:57 pricey and for nothing Apr 12 17:30:03 plus they have crap video cards usually Apr 12 17:30:04 and Apr 12 17:30:05 Although NOTHING touches their screens right now Apr 12 17:30:21 vaio has a high build quality with poor quality boards Apr 12 17:30:23 totally pointless Apr 12 17:30:33 like the case and most of the components are tough as nails Apr 12 17:30:38 but the mobo will die within a year Apr 12 17:30:43 :-( Apr 12 17:30:51 same reason i wont buy HP laptops Apr 12 17:30:59 had 4 different HPs over several years Apr 12 17:31:04 EVERY SINGLE ONE died from same thing Apr 12 17:31:07 Never heard of that happening more than any other brand Apr 12 17:31:09 it seems anything I get now will be a stopgap Apr 12 17:31:15 video card on the board took a poop Apr 12 17:31:19 and thats the end of the laptop Apr 12 17:31:25 more expensive to replace the board than it is to just buy a new one Apr 12 17:31:26 nothing like my 2004 vintage T42 with flexview Apr 12 17:31:28 Oh, thats the stupid nVidia thing Apr 12 17:31:50 halfhalo_T400: nah all but one of them were ATI Apr 12 17:32:00 and I gotta say, I am liking this X61t I got on clearance last year Apr 12 17:32:06 the one that wasnt just had an nvidia quadro mobility something in it Apr 12 17:32:16 jacques: Look at the x200's Apr 12 17:32:31 AFFS screens Apr 12 17:32:41 halfhalo_T400, yeah, I am considering one - multitouch Apr 12 17:32:43 * sbromwich has a cheap netbook because *nothing* lasts long being bounced around in a bicycle frame bag on logging trails. Apr 12 17:32:50 laptops are a losing investment Apr 12 17:33:03 you never get your moneys worth out of them unless its the only computer you use and you dont have a home Apr 12 17:33:06 :P Apr 12 17:33:40 I must have portability, and enough power to build big things like openembedded in reasonable time Apr 12 17:33:51 heh Apr 12 17:33:56 jacques: http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=5546&review=lenovo+thinkpad+x201+x201s+tablet Apr 12 17:34:03 im building a linux distro on a little dell d630 Apr 12 17:34:08 with a t7500 2.2ghz cpu Apr 12 17:34:10 4gigs of ram etc Apr 12 17:34:13 but Apr 12 17:34:20 i have a 9 cell primary and a 6 cell bay battery Apr 12 17:34:36 so i get like 7 hours of battery life during normal usage (like compiling or watching dvds) Apr 12 17:34:59 and im upgrading it and slapping a 160gig intel x25-m gen2 SSD in it Apr 12 17:35:04 plenty fast Apr 12 17:35:13 why..... Apr 12 17:35:22 Wait, i though the D630 was IDE... Apr 12 17:35:23 hmmmmm Apr 12 17:35:27 no Apr 12 17:35:29 all sata Apr 12 17:35:31 d600's were ide Apr 12 17:35:38 its ICH8 chipset Apr 12 17:35:49 full AHCI AFAIK Apr 12 17:36:36 thing i like most? Apr 12 17:36:46 i have power, speed, mobility, and massive battery life Apr 12 17:36:54 i get netbook battery life out of a full on dual core Apr 12 17:36:56 So do I wit my T400 Apr 12 17:37:13 halfhalo_T400, thanks for the link Apr 12 17:37:40 Heh Apr 12 17:37:41 halfhalo_T400: i liked thinkpads for smaller laptops Apr 12 17:37:42 Its what I do Apr 12 17:37:49 i dont know about now that lenovo bought them though Apr 12 17:37:58 i dont like chinese made computers/components Apr 12 17:38:02 lol Apr 12 17:38:09 hard to entirely avoid it but if i can... i will Apr 12 17:38:11 question? why noy invest in netbooks for portability and spend your big bucks on a nice desktop (which are upgradeable meaning can last you longer more for the money) Apr 12 17:38:45 Because some people don't have the money, or don't have the space, or want to work on the go Apr 12 17:38:55 Jack87-wIRC: i do that but its not always possible to do things on a desktop remotely Apr 12 17:39:18 try moving 20gig virtual box appliance images over EVDO at 100k/s Apr 12 17:39:19 hehe Apr 12 17:39:52 hell even doing GUI anything remotely is painful on EVDO Apr 12 17:39:59 loot: for whay? Apr 12 17:40:17 Jack87-wIRC: lots of stuff Apr 12 17:40:48 like my hardened browser appliance Apr 12 17:41:04 thats not 20gigs... but its big enough that its not trivial Apr 12 17:41:14 and you cant just run that remotely really either with slow internet Apr 12 17:41:47 so instead Apr 12 17:41:54 i just copy the appliance Apr 12 17:42:18 and do it locally on my laptop Apr 12 17:42:36 then copy any modifications and what not when i get home Apr 12 17:42:38 loot-: running remotely (via gui) is bassicaly screen refreshes and mouse/keyboard strokes should even work fine via evdo Apr 12 17:42:47 haha Apr 12 17:42:53 you've never tried it apparently Apr 12 17:43:02 100k/s for one is rare Apr 12 17:43:09 latency is massive on EVDO for two Apr 12 17:43:29 and in a moving vehicle, in a building, etc Apr 12 17:43:32 you're lucky to see 20k/s Apr 12 17:44:08 its better than nothing but its far from suitable for remote GUI Apr 12 17:44:56 i dont live in the sticks either... i live right in washington DC where most of these providers headquarters are :P Apr 12 17:45:27 or if not hq their main datacenters becuase this is where all the peering is Apr 12 17:46:09 so you want to do your projects on the go? Apr 12 17:46:18 i HAVE to do projects on the go Apr 12 17:46:30 otherwise i'd never work on them Apr 12 17:46:44 and carrying a 20 pound bowling ball of a laptop isnt much of an option Apr 12 17:46:44 lol Apr 12 17:47:00 why even consider a macbook? they are over priced for the hardware? Apr 12 17:47:25 price Apr 12 17:47:30 and i hate steve jobs and apple Apr 12 17:47:45 i refuse to pay someone to tell me what i can and cannot do with what i just purchased Apr 12 17:48:00 and i dont want to support them either Apr 12 17:48:08 sorry I thought you said you wanted one Apr 12 17:48:22 oh no definitely not Apr 12 17:48:35 ya very much agreeded Apr 12 17:48:35 ibooks were pretty sturdy and well priced back when the g4s came out Apr 12 17:48:42 I have no idea if macbooks are competitive Apr 12 17:48:43 I like my xps Apr 12 17:48:55 chrisa: yea i support dell for laptops Apr 12 17:49:01 their desktops are kinda crappy Apr 12 17:49:02 but Apr 12 17:49:09 I dislike their latitude / etc lines Apr 12 17:49:14 all my dell laptops just run forever with constant abuse Apr 12 17:49:15 i dunno - my mom has a dell & it's shit Apr 12 17:49:19 plus dell is an american company Apr 12 17:49:21 chrisa: dell makes good stuff for the highend machines not so much anything bellow 1500 Apr 12 17:49:23 and builds your laptop in america Apr 12 17:49:23 haha Apr 12 17:49:33 constantly get support calls from her & we've had to send it in for repairs Apr 12 17:49:39 & it was about 6 months old Apr 12 17:49:54 it's a cheapy though Apr 12 17:50:05 my dads had a cheapy Apr 12 17:50:08 m something Apr 12 17:50:11 little TINY laptop Apr 12 17:50:13 for a decade Apr 12 17:50:19 and he's never had anything break on it Apr 12 17:50:21 not even the hd Apr 12 17:50:36 i dont generally ahve problems ever with dells laptops Apr 12 17:50:51 my buddy at west point has a dell and it's not like any other dell I've seen. the computers they make for the military are so different Apr 12 17:50:51 i have had problems with every other single manufacturers laptops though Apr 12 17:50:54 especially HP Apr 12 17:51:10 Jack87-wIRC: its an XFR i bet Apr 12 17:51:13 a laptop for a decade with nothing breaking Apr 12 17:51:18 must have never turned it on Apr 12 17:51:30 oil: he just uses it for email and web browsing Apr 12 17:51:35 ive formatted it several times for him Apr 12 17:51:37 because windows sucks Apr 12 17:51:43 what about batteries Apr 12 17:51:44 but NO hardware problems with it period Apr 12 17:51:47 ah Apr 12 17:51:50 he never runs it on battery Apr 12 17:51:54 so tahts probably why it never died Apr 12 17:51:54 lol Apr 12 17:52:06 after that long the battery would probably only last like 10 mins Apr 12 17:52:07 lol Apr 12 17:52:16 ya i never asked him to try that Apr 12 17:52:21 it just sits on his desk plugged in Apr 12 17:52:22 lol Apr 12 17:52:40 its TINY though Apr 12 17:52:44 netbook sized and its super old Apr 12 17:52:49 my HP died :(.. video chip issue (i tried reflowin it worked! then I shorted it by keeping it plugged in) Apr 12 17:53:11 haha Apr 12 17:53:17 inspiron 300m Apr 12 17:53:19 thats what it is Apr 12 17:53:30 Jack87-wIRC: same issue ive had with every HP ive ever owned Apr 12 17:53:37 the video card always dies on the board Apr 12 17:53:38 lol Apr 12 17:53:44 the hp i have was in 2 pieces at one point Apr 12 17:54:03 but amex gave me back the 1400 bucks I spent to buy it every penny (keep in mind I didn't cheat anyone it ligitly screwed up got my money back then tried to save it) Apr 12 17:54:04 guy at work managed to break the screen completely off Apr 12 17:54:21 lol Apr 12 17:54:26 it was going to be pitched, so iw as like "ill take it" Apr 12 17:54:39 oil: i did that with one of mine at video game developer school long time ago Apr 12 17:54:42 and replaced the cables/case parts for like $30 off ebay Apr 12 17:54:42 video card died Apr 12 17:54:44 and i ran it headless Apr 12 17:54:45 haha Apr 12 17:55:01 its never given me any problems Apr 12 17:55:15 i never had any other problems with HPs other than video card problems Apr 12 17:55:28 ati or nvidia doesnt seem to matter either Apr 12 17:56:37 i think this one has intel Apr 12 17:56:41 lol Apr 12 17:57:23 loot-: the card issue really has more to do with nvidia and the mobo manufacuter using crappy solder that melts and video chip losses it's contacts the problem lies with hp failing to admit their computers have such an issue and not fixing it from warenty (although nvidia gave a huge chunk of money to manufacturers that used their chip for that very reason in warrenty repairs) Apr 12 17:58:00 Jack87-wIRC: no 3 of mine that died were ATI Apr 12 17:58:05 only 1 was nvidia Apr 12 17:58:20 it wasnt a ribbon cable problem either Apr 12 17:58:23 the cards die Apr 12 17:58:24 like Apr 12 17:58:30 odd bands of colors start showing up Apr 12 17:58:35 torn pages Apr 12 17:58:36 etc Apr 12 17:58:47 then eventually screen will just fail to turn on entirely Apr 12 17:59:02 and the only fix is to entirely replace the motherboard which is not a cheap venture usually Apr 12 17:59:03 lol ya mine the screen black period (the chip got loose from solder getting too hot) Apr 12 17:59:36 loot-: you can reflow the chip it's cheap. haha just don't short the board ;-) Apr 12 17:59:52 ya at that point Apr 12 18:00:06 its cheaper for me to just buy a new one Apr 12 18:00:08 time is money :P Apr 12 18:00:35 i do have to say though Apr 12 18:00:42 old school toshiba's were pretty solid Apr 12 18:00:50 i had a toshiba tecra that lasted for over a decade once Apr 12 18:01:05 and i beat the absolute crap out of that thing Apr 12 18:01:11 mine 6 years ago went in for repair issues once every few months Apr 12 18:01:24 ya i havent used a toshiba since my sparc lappy Apr 12 18:01:42 which was awesome but sucked down juice like a fat toddler Apr 12 18:01:58 then toshiba got a class action placed on them luckily it was about the time it stopped working again and toshiba extended the warenty and after that it's ran awesome Apr 12 18:03:36 * Jack87-wIRC watches palm stock soar Apr 12 18:07:15 Jack87-wIRC: not for good reasons Apr 12 18:07:49 zsoc_wirc: I don't believe it Apr 12 18:08:12 wall street believes it, that's all that matters Apr 12 18:08:47 zsoc_wirc: true Apr 12 18:14:54 they haven't even given it a year there is no way Apr 12 18:15:48 here we go.. http://www.itproportal.com/portal/news/article/2010/4/12/palm-ceo-stands-company-despite-sale-rumour/ Apr 12 18:27:05 I have a laptop bag that has lasted for 12 years now Apr 12 18:27:12 it's lasted through 4 laptops Apr 12 18:27:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbpAiPQ-cck - any parents here? :) Apr 12 18:27:27 lol Apr 12 18:47:47 hahaha Apr 12 18:47:59 in the unfortunate event I ever have children, I am so doing that Apr 12 18:48:14 I wouldn't call having children unfortunate Apr 12 18:48:14 and I'm using aplay to play a song too Apr 12 18:48:18 I actually never wanted to be a dad Apr 12 18:48:25 and man I love my kid to death, he's the coolest thing ever Apr 12 18:48:27 psykoz: it would be unfortunate for me :D Apr 12 18:48:33 Nah it wouldn't be Apr 12 18:48:42 well, we'll see I guess, hh Apr 12 18:48:44 heh Apr 12 18:48:56 The weirdest thing about being a developer dad is watching your kid grow up is almost like watching code revision itself Apr 12 18:49:09 first you start off with a sleep function, but it exceptions ever 2 hours ;) Apr 12 18:49:18 kids are just so... stupid. I have a problem getting over it Apr 12 18:49:21 then eventually you polish it up some more and it only exceptions ever 5 hours Apr 12 18:49:32 http://store.sysbuilder.com/sunmiulmome11.html Apr 12 18:49:48 psykoz: I see... hmm.. maybe I'll have to view it that way Apr 12 18:49:58 if someone could go ahead and buy that for me, that would be greeeat... mmmyeah Apr 12 18:50:02 eventually the sleep function is bullet proof, but then you have to start with other functions ;) potty training, eating, etc *grins*, You never have an instant fix, and everything you do is buggy Apr 12 18:50:16 I'm going to keep a programming log lol. Apr 12 18:50:28 best you can do is treat everythign like engineering, get from point a -> b as fast as you can and then clean out the kinks afterwards Apr 12 18:50:54 it's totally fun, it's stressful too, and it's a lot of hard work and mental drain, but in the end, totally worth it. Apr 12 18:51:36 and the first time your kid headshots some noob in a first person shooter, you're like "fuck yeah, was really worth it!" ;) Apr 12 18:51:40 i honestly think most advances in engineering are accomplished like that Apr 12 18:51:55 nobody makes any progress avoiding egg shells Apr 12 18:52:07 real engineers just smash through the problem and clean up the mess later Apr 12 18:53:03 unfortunately with children... smashing might not be the appropriate approach Apr 12 18:53:07 :P Apr 12 18:53:17 Oh I smash my kid like a gong sometimes ;) Apr 12 18:54:09 like the guy who slapped his 2 year old so hard he left a hand print bruise on her face Apr 12 18:54:14 because she ate his bbq pringles Apr 12 18:54:17 haha Apr 12 18:55:06 * oil was smacked as a kid Apr 12 18:55:11 and im better for it Apr 12 18:55:26 * sbromwich was caned as a kid and learnt Latin all the better for it Apr 12 18:55:43 corporal punishment ftw, etc. Apr 12 18:55:46 *grins* Apr 12 18:56:00 svn revert kid would be nice on occasion. Apr 12 18:56:05 kids need to learn what pain is, so yah, too many parents these days try to over-coddle their kids Apr 12 18:57:54 leading to the current generation of insufferable self-centred spoilt numpties Apr 12 18:57:58 * sbromwich overgeneralises wildly Apr 12 19:10:19 flicking the side of the eye socket Apr 12 19:11:47 psykoz: i agree Apr 12 19:24:00 re rwhitby Apr 12 19:35:48 * Lumiere kicks sbromwich Apr 12 19:35:54 I take that personally :) Apr 12 19:36:15 being one of those "insufferable self..." wait... nm ;) Apr 12 19:52:54 How would you go about putting the verizon webosdoctor on the sprint one? And would it do anything important Apr 12 19:54:03 Fuddbob: I bet there is an easier way to do what you're trying to achieve Apr 12 19:55:27 I'm just playing around with the doctors... What would be the outcone Apr 12 19:55:30 Outcome Apr 12 19:58:08 Would it be any big thing or would anything happen at all Apr 12 20:23:37 http://www.precentral.net/palm-tout-patent-portfolio-next-month :-| Apr 12 20:39:20 whoah, this talk is turning out somewhat different than I expected: http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_2010/sessions.html#KroahHartman Apr 12 20:40:07 he's already said (several times) that tho google did things wrong, palm is much worse - he hasn't justified it yet tho Apr 12 20:47:32 uNiXpSyChO: autobuild kernels work now, including uber-kernel with stock defaults Apr 12 20:48:16 rwhitby! i looked through that kernel thread all over but couldn't find a download link!!!111 :p Apr 12 20:48:21 * VincentLaw runs Apr 12 20:48:29 VincentLaw: heh Apr 12 20:50:55 jacques: Well, Google is the big known one who really screwed it up. Apr 12 20:54:39 uNiXpSyChO: hi Apr 12 20:55:06 rwhitby: hi. Apr 12 20:55:24 rwhitby: i meant to mention the other day i saw some kernel params missing from the build Apr 12 20:56:24 uNiXpSyChO: oh? what are they? Apr 12 20:56:59 uNiXpSyChO: I fixed the autobuild problem - it was because I was installing modules.dep and therefore overwriting the deps for the 3D driver Apr 12 20:57:34 * rwhitby doctors expendable-pre again to verify kernel install/remove/install/remove going back to stock Apr 12 20:57:54 CONFIG_WAKE_SOURCES CONFIG_TCP_FASTPATH CONFIG_INTSOCK_NETFILTER CONFIG_VIDEO_VX6852_I2C_LOG Apr 12 20:58:10 those were the ones missing in 1.4.0 kernel source from palm Apr 12 20:58:24 are they in 1.4.1 source? Apr 12 20:58:49 (or are you referring to the 1.4.0 kernel build?) Apr 12 20:58:51 yes. which is why i am puzzled on why they wasnt in the autobuild. Apr 12 20:59:06 i tried the uber 1.4.1-2 ipkg Apr 12 20:59:25 the 1.4.0 build needed the shim Apr 12 20:59:39 did the uber 1.4.1-2 work as expected? Apr 12 20:59:59 uNiXpSyChO: I think for the 1.4.0 build I'll just extract the binaries from the doctor Apr 12 21:00:17 no. that was the one where no modules loaded except for the wifi driver.. and didnt uninstall Apr 12 21:00:28 (since we'll only ever use that for testing upgrade paths) Apr 12 21:01:41 uNiXpSyChO: oh, try the latest 1.4.1-2 ipkg - it's now updated not to clobber modules.dep and should uninstall properly Apr 12 21:02:24 the only problem with not clobbering modules.dep is for the super-duper-uber kernel where it include everything as modules... then you would need to clobber it or depmod. Apr 12 21:02:36 i'll try the new ipkg now Apr 12 21:02:46 uNiXpSyChO: yeah, we'd depmod in the postinst for that I think Apr 12 21:02:56 cool Apr 12 21:03:15 (probably should do that anyway if it works well) Apr 12 21:14:10 I have a problem with my Pre, for PDK apps the screen doesn't update. Quake, Doom, and regular WebOS apps work fine. Apr 12 21:14:34 I'm running the 800MHz kernel, but in the past was not. Apr 12 21:15:54 EdLin: webOS doctor, see if it goes away, reinstall kernel, see if it comes back. Apr 12 21:16:21 change nothing else at the same time Apr 12 21:16:30 ok Apr 12 21:20:56 yeah, it shouldn't be the kernel, as I run 800mhz, and Monopoly works just fine for instance Apr 12 21:21:59 several times, greg-kh said palm violated the linux kernel license, but he did not elaborate Apr 12 21:23:32 hey jacques Apr 12 21:23:39 howdy rwhitby Apr 12 21:25:25 fun fact - iphone hardware bring-up was done on linux Apr 12 21:26:16 sooo, what you're saying is... webOS on iPhone? Apr 12 21:26:21 ^_^ Apr 12 21:26:46 Mousey, !!! we missed you Apr 12 21:26:51 hi Apr 12 21:30:31 this conf is full Apr 12 21:43:50 hello? Apr 12 21:44:05 g'day Apr 12 21:50:33 jacques: yell "wooo" when he says webos-internals? lol Apr 12 21:52:13 zsoc, :-) Apr 12 21:53:20 thats your only job Apr 12 21:53:22 is to yell woo Apr 12 21:54:32 "WOOO!!!" Apr 12 21:54:36 oil: you bring the fruit Apr 12 21:55:10 what, a box of apples? Apr 12 21:55:10 lol Apr 12 21:55:17 * zsoc shrugs Apr 12 21:55:20 everyone loves apples Apr 12 21:55:36 the meep talk is in < 50 minutes Apr 12 21:55:55 they have some real nice pears here Apr 12 21:56:00 i love me a pear Apr 12 21:56:21 * oil is not a pear fan Apr 12 21:56:34 mmmm pears Apr 12 21:56:42 plums and peaches though Apr 12 21:56:48 and cherries Apr 12 21:57:03 silly to keep PMing >.> Apr 12 21:57:44 anyway, on the uberkernel rwhitby, I'm getting that flickering I think you guys mentioned earlier Apr 12 21:58:13 anyone know what kboot is? Apr 12 21:58:48 oh, it's a bootloader Apr 12 21:59:11 (getting the flickering in 3D with the governer on that is) Apr 12 22:00:31 hmm, I wonder how changing the ARM core frequencies affects the GPU code Apr 12 22:00:39 s/de/re/ Apr 12 22:00:39 jacques meant: hmm, I wonrer how changing the ARM core frequencies affects the GPU code Apr 12 22:00:43 sigh. Apr 12 22:00:53 VincentLaw: which governor? Apr 12 22:00:57 VincentLaw: what's /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/up_threshold set to? Apr 12 22:01:29 lots of ppl here are into android Apr 12 22:01:39 jacques: I think it affects the power saving, theyre using udelay which (if 'm reading itrigh) is a busywait loop based on bogomips Apr 12 22:01:40 sbromwich: FYI: VincentLaw is running the latest uber-kernel with all settings defaulted, all governors compiled in, and I believe he's using the cpuscaler app to control it Apr 12 22:01:41 sbromwich: default, just turned it to the 11 setting, seemed to make it stop Apr 12 22:01:41 meh, proprietary java sandboxes Apr 12 22:01:54 just turning it to 11 Apr 12 22:01:56 not using cpuscaler, I'm using his settings via ssh Apr 12 22:01:58 ALWAYS a good solution Apr 12 22:02:03 VincentLaw: ah, cool. Apr 12 22:02:05 rwhitby: I could tell from him mentioning flicker ;-) Apr 12 22:02:41 VincentLaw: see if you can up it a bit more, the higher you can get that the better your battery life Apr 12 22:03:06 orly Apr 12 22:03:14 * VincentLaw plays with numbers for a few hours Apr 12 22:03:35 powersave_bias is the other one but only increment that by one or two Apr 12 22:03:54 yeah I'm checking the defaults before putting the recommended settings Apr 12 22:03:59 I'm dumb, but I'm not stupid Apr 12 22:04:04 up_threshold is what % busy cpu the frequency will be switched up at... default is 95. Apr 12 22:04:13 *grin* Apr 12 22:04:21 inst default 80? Apr 12 22:04:23 powersave_bias is an odd one Apr 12 22:04:26 default is 80, yes Apr 12 22:04:31 for threshold Apr 12 22:04:34 kerel default is 95 Apr 12 22:04:35 VincentLaw: we believe you matty Apr 12 22:04:53 dunno what it is in the palm code though (if it's touched at al) Apr 12 22:05:14 I really wish SSH wouldn't just go unresponsive after not being touched >.> Apr 12 22:05:28 VincentLaw: ping the pre to keep it alive Apr 12 22:05:39 or plug it into usb Apr 12 22:05:49 yeah I think putty has an option to ping it Apr 12 22:05:51 * rwhitby bbl - beach time Apr 12 22:05:52 just havent bothered Apr 12 22:05:58 or reduce tcp keepalives Apr 12 22:06:05 i love how "engadget -- seriously" is in 2nd place in the poll Apr 12 22:06:05 rwhitby: enjoy ;-) Apr 12 22:06:05 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/12/who-should-buy-palm/ Apr 12 22:06:19 ... yeah, way to diversify Apr 12 22:06:33 up to 30 so far on threshold, no problems Apr 12 22:06:49 * jacques votes for "nobody" Apr 12 22:07:00 * VincentLaw votes for me Apr 12 22:07:01 >.> Apr 12 22:07:18 Templarian: we've got kernel packages now - they just need a cool icon ;) Apr 12 22:08:02 has anyone ever used http://phoronix-test-suite.com/ ? Apr 12 22:08:06 huh that's odd Apr 12 22:08:26 threshold of 70? no flicker on monopoly main menu. threshold of 80? flicker like crazy. is it really that small of a range? :p Apr 12 22:09:06 VincentLaw: It will probably be slightly different for each app, but yeah Apr 12 22:09:09 apparently so Apr 12 22:09:12 yea Apr 12 22:09:17 I will test in other apps after this Apr 12 22:09:18 I thought this talk was going to be about porting, but it's about source code management Apr 12 22:09:20 useful informationto know VincentLaw :-) Apr 12 22:09:29 the lower the better Apr 12 22:09:46 then again i dont like ondemand sched Apr 12 22:09:51 71 seems mostly safe Apr 12 22:10:07 althoguh I'd probably stick with 70 since round numbers make the world go round Apr 12 22:10:29 anything above 71 causes noticible flickers Apr 12 22:11:43 vairy interesting... Apr 12 22:12:09 I'd be interested to knowhow youtube works for you as well if you get the chance Apr 12 22:12:27 sure thing Apr 12 22:12:33 just youtube or also test videos? Apr 12 22:13:01 (testing youtube with an iphone video >.>) Apr 12 22:13:09 youtube flickers at 70 Apr 12 22:13:11 just youtube generaly Apr 12 22:13:52 the other test case is the camera... I think ther's a timing loop bug there that throws the power management for a loop Apr 12 22:14:08 50 and still flickering in youtube Apr 12 22:14:14 brb, my laptop seems deeply unhappy I made it hibernate Apr 12 22:14:24 kay Apr 12 22:14:50 woh, that's weird, the youtube video flickers even when it is /isn't playing/, that is, the video ended. Apr 12 22:15:19 s/it is/it/ Apr 12 22:15:20 VincentLaw meant: woh, that's weird, the youtube video flickers even when it /isn't playing/, that is, the video ended. Apr 12 22:16:43 intel is hedging their bets - meego and android Apr 12 22:17:35 BTW, did everyone see http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/241355-next-generation-kernel-development-packaging.html ? Apr 12 22:18:23 reading now Apr 12 22:19:10 VincentLaw: that's rather odd Apr 12 22:19:23 VincentLaw: if you fire up the camera do you just get grey screen? Apr 12 22:19:39 btw it flickered all the way down to 1 Apr 12 22:19:49 also no I do not get a grey screen on camera Apr 12 22:20:00 * rwhitby bbl Apr 12 22:20:01 huh. Apr 12 22:20:15 what've you got powersave_bias set to at the moment? Apr 12 22:20:29 1 Apr 12 22:20:31 You can debug where mediaserver is failing by restarting it with debug mode on 3 or higher Apr 12 22:21:26 rwhitby: some people are frowning at that post ;) Apr 12 22:21:42 rwhitby: completely forgot... :( Apr 12 22:21:59 powersave bias of 0 doesnt give a grey screen on camera either. camera seems fine Apr 12 22:22:18 interesting... Apr 12 22:22:40 in my testing youtube flicker and camera fail seemed to be linked Apr 12 22:22:43 I am running at 800mhz if that matters Apr 12 22:22:58 shouldn't do Apr 12 22:23:03 sbromwich: you still running preempt? Apr 12 22:23:16 uNiXpSyChO: from 1.4.0 Apr 12 22:24:08 can't get it going with 1.4.1 but I'm feeling tempted to flonk with prcm_pwr.c as I have a gut feeling that's a source of issues Apr 12 22:24:35 they're using udelay which I think might not give desired results if freq changes Apr 12 22:25:01 whaaat the heeeck Apr 12 22:25:12 also I think they're not delaying long enough in wake from suspend so there's a bit of a race condition so the device can hork and crash lunasysmgr on coming out of suspend Apr 12 22:25:16 now it isn't flickering in youtube Apr 12 22:25:22 sbromwich: not too sure about that. my scaling kernel doesnt even flicker and camera works fine. except when i get stripping happy. Apr 12 22:25:54 preempt is a diff beast Apr 12 22:26:11 *nod* Apr 12 22:26:35 I only came across it because I was sprinkling preempt_dis/enable fairy dust through the drivers Apr 12 22:26:41 You can debug where mediaserver (cam or media player/youtube) is failing by restarting it with debug mode on 3 or higher... Apr 12 22:26:50 okay seriously now I can't get youtube to flicker. Apr 12 22:26:56 I'm guessing it's dumping frames tho Apr 12 22:26:57 I've done powersave of 0 and 1, threshold of 1 and 80 Apr 12 22:27:06 I attended some good talks about rt-preempt today Apr 12 22:27:14 does it flicker with a threshold of 99? Apr 12 22:27:21 jacques: Ingo and Greg KH? Apr 12 22:27:30 no, it isn't flickering at 99 Apr 12 22:27:36 wow. Apr 12 22:27:39 <-- bepuzzled. Apr 12 22:27:50 yeah I have no idea what happened Apr 12 22:27:58 sbromwich, not big names I recognized, but great talks Apr 12 22:28:14 all I did was close youtube, open up Video, play a video (it didn't flicker), closed it, and went back to youtube. Apr 12 22:28:16 VincentLaw: how does the monopoly game fare now? Apr 12 22:28:29 jacques: novell guys? Apr 12 22:28:36 opening monopoly now Apr 12 22:28:40 sbromwich, http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_2010/sessions.html#Dankwardt and http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_2010/sessions.html#Anderson1 Apr 12 22:28:41 brb, the boy's after me Apr 12 22:28:50 oh yeah I did open camera after I closed youtube as well Apr 12 22:29:17 okay monopoly now isn't flickering at 99 Apr 12 22:30:05 CELF ELC is sold out this year for the first time ever Apr 12 22:30:22 heh, I just saw a slide with duke nukem on pre on it Apr 12 22:30:27 meep is setting up Apr 12 22:31:33 sbromwich Apr 12 22:31:37 I think something happened to the governor Apr 12 22:31:43 it's only going between 500mhz and 800mhz now Apr 12 22:31:48 I think you're right VincentLaw Apr 12 22:31:54 oh-hoh Apr 12 22:32:00 even when sitting completely idle it sits at 500mhz Apr 12 22:32:06 what's scaling_min_frequency at? Apr 12 22:32:15 note that it WAS running at 125 earlier Apr 12 22:32:29 125000 Apr 12 22:32:41 I saw that when I had anticipatory scheduler but I thought that was from the scheduler... maybe there's another artifact driving the cpu to keep the freq up and keep things going Apr 12 22:32:56 good catch. Apr 12 22:33:05 it happened sometime after I: Apr 12 22:33:18 Closed youtube, opened camera, closed camera, played a video, and went back to youtube :p Apr 12 22:34:34 hmmmm... maybe a custom scheduler is needed that knows when it's safe to clock down to 125MHz. Apr 12 22:34:36 I just turned off and turned back on the governor, no change, stuck at 500mhz+ Apr 12 22:35:11 can you try setting scaling_min_freq to 800, then drop it back to 125 and see if that changes anything? Apr 12 22:35:28 sure Apr 12 22:35:35 ta Apr 12 22:36:15 went up to 800mhz as commanded, when changed back to 125000, it went back to 500mhz Apr 12 22:37:22 should I reboot, or do you want me to redo some commands to test? Apr 12 22:37:25 *do some more Apr 12 22:37:44 hmmm. Apr 12 22:38:15 yeah do a reboot, I'd be curious to see if you can replicate the youtube/camera/youtube thing Apr 12 22:38:18 rwhitby: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3188/chipicon.png Apr 12 22:38:56 Templarian: haha nice Apr 12 22:39:00 yeah I have no idea if it was actually the apps, or maybe it was just my continuous changing of threshold that borked it Apr 12 22:39:55 I don't think so, I saw something similar with one of my kernels Apr 12 22:40:13 ok Apr 12 22:40:19 turn-out for this talk (at three minutes til start) is very light Apr 12 22:40:22 Thanks, now back to typing this 10 page paper due tomorrow. bleh. Apr 12 22:40:22 I'll see if I can reproduce it reliably Apr 12 22:40:44 the android talk was SRO :-( Apr 12 22:40:56 sro? Apr 12 22:41:22 no more seats :p Apr 12 22:42:09 standing room only Apr 12 22:42:35 jacques: mine was more descriptive ;) Apr 12 22:42:44 not sure why it's called that, but it means all seats are taken and some ppl have to stand Apr 12 22:42:47 Oh look, now the rumors say we're not being bought but we're being licensed! I love the internet Apr 12 22:42:59 and yes, zsoc's reply was better Apr 12 22:43:48 chrisa: what does that even mean? how do you license a public ally traded corporation Apr 12 22:44:34 webOS, patents, etc Apr 12 22:44:39 At bootup the kernel measures the delay loop speed of Apr 12 22:44:41 each CPU. CPU frequency scaling might make the loop Apr 12 22:44:43 run slower at times, but that is okay because udelay Apr 12 22:44:45 simply specifies a *minimum* delay. Apr 12 22:44:46 Whatever. Dance puppets dance. Increase my stock price Apr 12 22:44:47 hmmm. Apr 12 22:44:55 makes me speculate on the effect of booting at 800 vs 500. Apr 12 22:45:22 yea Apr 12 22:45:36 http://forums.precentral.net/2377529-post7.html Apr 12 22:45:37 made me lol Apr 12 22:45:50 especially "Flash is less of a cpu hog on pcs than html." Apr 12 22:46:12 *blink* Apr 12 22:46:50 when do we switch from html browsers to flash browsers? Apr 12 22:46:57 bet the advertisers would *love* that. Apr 12 22:47:00 lol Apr 12 22:47:18 people with epilepsy, not so much. Apr 12 22:47:53 I hope palm licenses webos to dozens of manufacturers Apr 12 22:48:44 but palm doesn't have the $$$ to pay them to use it like google Apr 12 22:50:18 * Using udelay() for intervals greater than a few milliseconds can Apr 12 22:50:20 * risk overflow for high loops_per_jiffy (high bogomips) machines. Apr 12 22:50:22 hmmm. Apr 12 22:50:24 I talked to a guy with a Pixi today who doesnt even /own/ a computer. We were talking about the OS and he was moving around it just fine. He'd had it like 3 weeks. Apr 12 22:50:31 would be nice to know how high "high" is. Apr 12 22:50:36 WebOS just 'makes sense' Apr 12 22:52:28 We could improve the introduction to it a lot Apr 12 22:52:40 A surprising number of users do not know they can use universal search for apps/contacts Apr 12 22:52:45 I never use the launcher, personally Apr 12 22:58:48 sbromwich: okay, I think this can pretty much be confirmed Apr 12 22:58:54 here's what I did: Apr 12 22:59:41 turned on governor, set threshold to 1 (to give youtube the best chance). launched youtube. it flickered like usual. closed it, opened camera. camera opens fine. closed camera, opened youtube, no flicker, stuck at 500mhz Apr 12 23:00:44 makes me wonder if the camera forces it into 500mhz Apr 12 23:00:51 VincentLaw: camd might do it Apr 12 23:00:57 i believe it's closed source also Apr 12 23:02:47 I think zsoc has it nailed Apr 12 23:03:29 I'm flonking with prcm_pwr to see what happens when I use nanosleep with slacker times Apr 12 23:04:06 sbromwich: you can probably patch the upstart script to start camd with custom options, although those options may be limited Apr 12 23:05:01 zsoc: still twiddling about compiling the kernel, not got that far yet ;-) Apr 12 23:05:32 okay when the camera app opens, it locks the cpu at 600mhz Apr 12 23:05:55 when it closes it hits a bottom of 500mhz Apr 12 23:05:56 VincentLaw: they probably did that in 1.4 for the video recorder Apr 12 23:06:10 possibly Apr 12 23:06:28 Ive never gotten that grey screen though sbromwich Apr 12 23:06:56 I've seen it when I'm pushing the limits Apr 12 23:07:13 I also have a "bad" cpu that locks when run at 800 too long, which may be related Apr 12 23:09:49 ah Apr 12 23:12:48 is there a way to force the current speed to a specific setting? just adjust the max? Apr 12 23:13:58 bleh Apr 12 23:14:07 I was seeing if there was any way to force it into something lower than 500mhz Apr 12 23:14:18 but either my method doesn't work or it won't do it even with max set below 500 Apr 12 23:16:15 what is the current gov? Apr 12 23:19:46 uNiXpSyChO: doesn't matter. userspace or ondemand Apr 12 23:20:21 when the camera app starts, it makes the cpu run at 600mhz, and when it closes, it somehow breaks the min frequency, causing it to go no lower than 500mhz. Apr 12 23:20:38 changing the governor, the min frequency, the max frequency, nothing will make it go below 500mhz Apr 12 23:21:07 only way to "fix" it is to reboot and redo the governor again Apr 12 23:21:33 VincentLaw: that might be by design of the OPP programming i did for this kernel Apr 12 23:22:06 changing the gov might confuse it. not sure why. most of that code is very messy. Apr 12 23:23:54 *shrug* Apr 12 23:25:14 can you can /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor for me? Apr 12 23:25:24 I just noticed something has reset mine back to userspace, rather oddly... Apr 12 23:25:35 brb, boy is after me Apr 12 23:27:51 ok Apr 12 23:27:57 I'll redo the test and check Apr 12 23:30:28 Templarian: awesome Apr 12 23:31:49 Okay now in return you can write a paper on "Google operating in Communist China" Apr 12 23:35:34 anyone else have a problem where the phone will randomly lock/restart luna on hitting the power button to bring it out of suspend? Apr 12 23:35:56 yes Apr 12 23:36:07 with 1.4.0 Apr 12 23:36:09 yup Apr 12 23:36:13 what sort of %age do you see it? Apr 12 23:36:18 ~5-10%? Apr 12 23:36:36 Less than that, I'd say, but I'd just be guessing. Apr 12 23:36:51 k Apr 12 23:36:59 Maybe one out of every 25-30 times I try to wake it up with the power button. Apr 12 23:37:11 I think I *might* have fixed it by going caveman on the code and doubling all the udelays I can find Apr 12 23:37:16 havent seen it since 1.4.1 Apr 12 23:37:28 I've had it on 1.4.1 Apr 12 23:37:58 me too Apr 12 23:38:02 ah-hah! Apr 12 23:38:03 hm ok latest WIDK is not make stage'ing for me Apr 12 23:38:12 yes, it fixes it Apr 12 23:38:19 grep: /srv/preware/cross-compile/rootfs/armv6/usr/lib/ipkg/info/zlib.list: No such file or directory Apr 12 23:38:38 I can see it pause a little longer coming out of suspend when not on usb power but it seems pretty solid Apr 12 23:38:46 along with many similar errors.. /srv/preware/cross-compile/rootfs/armv6/usr in fact doesn't exist Apr 12 23:39:03 actually seems to add in a rather nice fade effect too Apr 12 23:39:34 jacques: how is the talk? Apr 12 23:39:36 any volunteers want to try my kernel? Apr 12 23:39:55 I think my pre has had enough for one night :p Apr 12 23:40:00 *grin* Apr 12 23:40:49 any insight as to why WIDK isn't compilinga anyone? Apr 12 23:40:49 Tman: Making stage the last time is rather unnecessary and needs to be reworked. Basically it just trys to build all the crap in packages/, which is mostly unkept these days. Apr 12 23:40:58 rwhitby: I think this might be a dog simple change worth pushing upstream, do you want to take a look at my code? Apr 12 23:41:03 zsoc: oh Apr 12 23:41:24 zsoc: so I should be good with just a make toolchain? Apr 12 23:41:24 rwhitby: /home/sbromwich/build/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/build/src-1.4.1-2/linux-2.6.24/arch/arm/mach-omap3pe Apr 12 23:41:26 sbromwich: sure Apr 12 23:41:45 *sigh* brb boy requires the attention of the entertainments committee again Apr 12 23:42:01 Tman: more or less yes. If you want, try navigating to a specific directory in pacakges (like packages/bison) and 'make stage' there, just building that one package to verify your toolchain is functioning Apr 12 23:43:00 rwhitby, talk went well - tons of webos-internals content Apr 12 23:43:19 rwhitby, sorry was talking to some TI guys - they are pushing palm to update to a modern OMAP kernel Apr 12 23:43:33 oh oh Apr 12 23:43:33 meep said they are working on it Apr 12 23:43:55 oh do tell more Apr 12 23:44:09 I wish more ppl had been there tho - only about 30 ppl, but show of hands showed 90% of them were in the mobile industry Apr 12 23:44:10 jacques: oh, the delicious irony! Apr 12 23:44:11 jacques: tell someone to opensource camd and mediaserver, lol Apr 12 23:44:34 I was avoiding being a pest - there were a few times where I could have said something Apr 12 23:44:46 but the TI guy asked the question about the kernel :-) Apr 12 23:45:03 also ppl asked about new devices and it was an official "no comment" Apr 12 23:45:30 then re: new OMAP kernel "we are looking at which version to use to bring to multiple devices at the same time" Apr 12 23:46:07 jacques: nice Apr 12 23:46:25 in news which may be good or bad, the TI guy said they are moving away from OE and to Ubuntu ARM Apr 12 23:46:36 jacques: i'm ok with that Apr 12 23:46:50 it's not like we use OE anyway, heh Apr 12 23:46:56 there is a BOF on ubuntu ARM tonight, just announced, I was going to the elinux one but I think I'll go to that one instead Apr 12 23:47:34 canonical guy said he had just come from presenting at texaslinuxfest (heh) Apr 12 23:48:32 talk was really positive toward webos internals, I just with more ppl had been there to hear how great we are :-) Apr 12 23:49:16 jacques: we can publicise the recording which I hope was made Apr 12 23:49:20 BTW, this guy http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_2010/sessions.html#Scholz wants to talk to use about bringing his app up on webos Apr 12 23:49:37 I asked him to come here and talk to ppl Apr 12 23:50:00 do we have python on webos ? in optware on webos? Apr 12 23:50:05 jacques: feel free to give people my email in private Apr 12 23:50:11 jacques: yes, multiple versions Apr 12 23:50:18 (in optware) Apr 12 23:50:23 cool, he just needs python - the app sounds interesting Apr 12 23:50:56 rwhitby, they said slides in about two weeks, recordings probably after that Apr 12 23:51:11 jacques: nt4cats is a python pusher, so i think he got some of that set up.. he was looking to package it as a dep for preware the other day Apr 12 23:51:47 cool Apr 12 23:58:52 christefano, howdy! Apr 12 23:59:47 * rwhitby bbl Apr 13 00:33:42 I think I just fixed preempt not working on 1.4.1 kernels. Apr 13 00:33:56 also, probably a shedload of other bugs. Apr 13 00:34:06 * sbromwich is slightly surprised Apr 13 00:34:13 shedload? Apr 13 00:34:18 *nod* Apr 13 00:34:25 that's a new one Apr 13 00:34:31 a wodge? Apr 13 00:34:34 bundle? Apr 13 00:34:49 a waffair theen meent more? Apr 13 00:35:12 I was having the kernel hork constantly with preempt Apr 13 00:35:26 doubling (or more) the udelays in prcm_power.c seems to have fixed them all. Apr 13 00:35:42 so it was just a timing thing ? Apr 13 00:35:44 anybody seen this http://www.everythingpre.com/blog/firefox-ported-to-webos-using-pdk/2010/04/12/ Apr 13 00:35:44 palm-webos-device / # uname -a Apr 13 00:35:45 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Tue Apr 13 00:27:48 UTC 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 13 00:35:48 would appear so Apr 13 00:35:58 it actually states in the source that there's a timing problem Apr 13 00:36:25 fixes the hang on unsuspend problem, fixes preempt not working Apr 13 00:36:31 experimenting now with my test cases Apr 13 00:36:54 hrm. camera fail. Apr 13 00:37:46 Do you have to be in Developer Mode to run Preware and install packages? Apr 13 00:37:57 .. or to run Terminal? Apr 13 00:39:20 mischko: you don't have to be in developer mode to /run/ anything Apr 13 00:39:25 can't seem to get youtube videos to stream... just getting the spinner Apr 13 00:39:43 sbromwich: again, mediaserver in debug mode will tell you why, very verbosely Apr 13 00:39:46 zsoc, what does developer mode give you? I haven't found a summary of this yet. Apr 13 00:40:08 mischko: the ability to access the phone with novacom or similar communication protocol utility Apr 13 00:40:10 zsoc: yeah, that's my next step, I'm just running through test cases at the moment to see what's working and what isn't Apr 13 00:40:15 sbromwich: ah ok Apr 13 00:41:34 OpenSSH or Dropbear recommended? Apr 13 00:41:43 has anybody seen this ?http://www.everythingpre.com/blog/firefox-ported-to-webos-using-pdk/2010/04/12/ Apr 13 00:41:53 mischko: I use openssh myself Apr 13 00:42:14 Is there a default password that I need to change for security purposes? Or just create a new user and grant sudo privs? Apr 13 00:43:05 mischko: there is no root password by default, and by default you can not access OpenSSH with root Apr 13 00:43:55 mp3 playing fails but incidental sounds work... weirderer and weirderer Apr 13 00:46:02 sslow_wirc: i wonder why there was more info on it. like at all lol Apr 13 00:46:07 wasnt* Apr 13 00:46:26 How to do special keys like up-arrow in Terminal? Where's docs for the app? Apr 13 00:46:30 aaaand wifi is dead. Apr 13 00:46:47 mischko: hold gesture, press 2,4,6,8 Apr 13 00:46:47 maybe I was a little... excessive in my incrementing of udelay. Apr 13 00:46:51 mischko: there's a page on the wiki Apr 13 00:48:15 sbromwich, rip/tear/slash/burn....its ALL good :D Apr 13 00:52:05 Hmm. I was in Terminal and took a phone call. Tried to do stuff in terminal and "palm" shows up - reset the phone. Apr 13 00:52:23 mischko: that's what I'm fiddling with at the moment Apr 13 00:53:00 sbromwich, are u the author of Terminal? Apr 13 00:53:41 mischko, you just can't go back...ever Apr 13 00:53:48 (at least for now) Apr 13 00:54:23 mischko: no, I'm working on the kernel Apr 13 00:54:25 forward is fine with me! These Non-obvious keys in terminal mention "Gesture area - 3" What's this mean? I can't seem to get it done. Apr 13 00:57:30 * bhuey crosses his fingers about Palm's survival Apr 13 00:59:45 sigh Apr 13 01:02:21 ka6sox, why the long face? Apr 13 01:03:00 too much gloom and doom... Apr 13 01:04:01 Yah. I hope the smoke clears and Palm comes out shining. Apr 13 01:05:57 No, keep debating sales this week Apr 13 01:06:06 Hmm. The rounded corners in the bottom of Terminal are wierd. Apr 13 01:06:39 chrisa: hm? Apr 13 01:06:53 I wonder if there's a stty setting you can put in to make the terminal a few lines shorter at the top and bottom. Apr 13 01:07:12 zsoc: every time someone starts a rumor my portfolio is worth more Apr 13 01:07:25 chrisa: ah, right. Apr 13 01:07:35 lets hear it for rumors! Apr 13 01:08:00 hey, do external USB or bluetooth keyboards work with the Pre? Apr 13 01:08:03 novell is going to buy palm. Apr 13 01:08:04 Pre Plus Apr 13 01:08:23 I don't think it has a USB host... Apr 13 01:08:34 what about bluetooth? Apr 13 01:08:35 * ka6sox could be wrong. Apr 13 01:08:48 they're going to put suse on it and integrate synergy into NDS for an end to end enterprise groupware solution. Apr 13 01:08:53 it would have to be described in the bluetooth driver. Apr 13 01:08:54 that do it for you, chrisa? Apr 13 01:09:25 rumors are soo much fun. Apr 13 01:09:28 no, suse is a deathtrap Apr 13 01:09:32 Why do you hate me? Apr 13 01:09:53 *grin* Apr 13 01:09:59 its probably not any more true than any of the other rumors. Apr 13 01:10:49 Funny. When you rotate the screen, Terminal no longer has rounded corners. Apr 13 01:10:59 nothing has rounded corners when rotated Apr 13 01:11:02 if the app rotates Apr 13 01:11:07 do u know if pretty much everyone at palm is using their devices? or everyone is using what he wants? Apr 13 01:11:24 /. is going to buy palm in order to ensure that the default homepage in the browser is /. Apr 13 01:11:38 noooooo... Apr 13 01:12:09 playboy is going to buy palm in order to... extend the use of the vibration function into other markets. Apr 13 01:12:23 battery life is too short for that. Apr 13 01:12:51 that's why the pre++ is going to be 12 inches long. Apr 13 01:13:32 plenty of extra space for more battery then. Apr 13 01:14:36 pre's battery life is not so bad anyway Apr 13 01:14:56 ive seen worst Apr 13 01:17:33 hi all Apr 13 01:17:39 How to exit drive mode? Apr 13 01:17:45 * scoutcamper just got a pre plus! Apr 13 01:17:51 scoutcamper, me too! Apr 13 01:18:01 lol Apr 13 01:18:06 i had my pre since day 1 Apr 13 01:18:06 :P Apr 13 01:18:14 * scoutcamper just upgraded from a pixi plus, wich was an upgrade from my pre Apr 13 01:18:34 pixi plus is hot Apr 13 01:18:35 i had my pre since day 1 as well, then went to pixi plus, then pre plus Apr 13 01:18:35 I waited for my New Every 2 to kick in. cost: $0. They enabled wife hot spot for free, too! Apr 13 01:19:11 im thinking about overclocking Apr 13 01:27:40 * swishy just wishes they were easier to obtain in NZ Apr 13 01:30:17 wifi.mrvl: Serious error: failed to load wifi driver. Apr 13 01:30:19 ? Apr 13 01:30:48 scoutcamper: what did you do with your pixi plus ? Apr 13 01:31:22 bpadalino i am keeping it as a backup/something to give to my mom Apr 13 01:31:27 nice Apr 13 01:31:59 i feel pixis are really underrated, everybody talks about pre, but pixi is badass too. Apr 13 01:32:41 huh... well that explains the youtube issue, at least Apr 13 01:35:23 oh... I wonder how MODVERSIONS got disabled. Apr 13 01:35:25 *cough* Apr 13 01:54:22 * sbromwich really must remember to come up with a patch for vermagic.h for preempt for rwhitby Apr 13 01:54:53 though I suspect it will become ought rather than must... *sigh* Apr 13 01:54:54 I installed openssh but it appears that sshd is not auto-starting. How to make it auto? Apr 13 01:55:19 there should be a mobi.something.openssh in /etc/event.d Apr 13 01:55:24 it should Apr 13 01:55:30 IIRC Apr 13 01:55:57 mobi.optware.openssh Apr 13 01:56:07 thought there was more to it than that, but there you go Apr 13 01:56:32 in case it makes a difference I just did ipkg-opt install openssh from novaterm Apr 13 01:56:50 terminal just reset it again! :( Apr 13 01:57:09 * sbromwich admits it took several days before realising there was a GUI component to preware. Apr 13 01:57:18 define "it"? Apr 13 01:57:25 palm pre plus Apr 13 01:57:32 that's... odd. Apr 13 01:57:39 are you overclocking or anything? Apr 13 01:57:44 no. stock phone. Apr 13 01:57:49 ++odd. Apr 13 01:58:01 upgraded os. Apr 13 01:58:02 have you tried terminus? Apr 13 01:58:08 not yet. Apr 13 01:58:16 might be worth it for SNG Apr 13 01:58:30 SNG? Apr 13 01:58:53 SsssshI'mnotallowedtosayrudewords N Giggles Apr 13 01:59:19 lol Apr 13 01:59:30 ahh. Apr 13 01:59:40 * sbromwich got a little bit of stick for getting drunk and sweary the other night. Apr 13 01:59:54 Ok. sshd is starting auto. My bad. Apr 13 02:00:00 sweet Apr 13 02:00:30 resource usage difference between dropbear and openssh on webos? Apr 13 02:00:50 marginal Apr 13 02:01:14 worth it for the extra features in openssh Apr 13 02:02:04 Can I uninstall stuff like VZNavigator that I won't use? Apr 13 02:02:52 I think it'll just get reinstalled in the next OTA update Apr 13 02:03:01 and if not, the updater might get rather confused Apr 13 02:03:11 there's patches to hide stuff though Apr 13 02:03:18 how do I find those patches? Apr 13 02:03:25 have you found preware yet? Apr 13 02:03:36 yes Apr 13 02:04:02 ok, install them from there... go into, I think, Types and there's a section for Patches Apr 13 02:04:18 k. thanks. Apr 13 02:04:22 np Apr 13 02:04:37 there's also preware alpha which is a lot faster but with the obvious drawback of being alpha Apr 13 02:05:25 just need to add the webos... um, I can't remember the feed precisely, there's some dev or testing feed thats listed on the webos-internals.org wiki somewhere Apr 13 02:05:40 I think I'll stick with non-alpha for now. Apr 13 02:05:45 or just hit the repo address directly, then browse through the directory tree Apr 13 02:05:49 probably a wise move ;-) Apr 13 02:06:36 These patches, are they OS version specific? Apr 13 02:06:53 not usually Apr 13 02:06:57 mischko: yes they are Apr 13 02:07:13 well... preware picks out the right bits for you Apr 13 02:07:19 mischko: but it will only show patches that are relevant to your current OS Apr 13 02:07:25 nice. Apr 13 02:07:53 So I need to reinstall patches when I upgrade OS? Apr 13 02:08:00 there's some that are just placeholders until the patch itself is available on your version Apr 13 02:08:26 Anyone doing app development on the phone? Apr 13 02:08:29 shouldn't do Apr 13 02:08:34 mischko: it will automagically pull the necessary upgrades Apr 13 02:08:35 see http://forums.precentral.net/webos-patches/227163-aupt-auto-update-patch-technology.html for details Apr 13 02:08:45 mischko: i think we're all doing app development? and probably #webos too ... Apr 13 02:08:59 I mean doing it _on_ the phone, rather than on a PC. Apr 13 02:09:11 yeah, I've got gcc on there Apr 13 02:09:11 oh, yeah well Apr 13 02:09:14 it's kinda bad Apr 13 02:09:16 i mean slow as heck Apr 13 02:09:17 but sure Apr 13 02:09:22 uNiXpSyChO: modules are sucking on me but seems good otherwise Apr 13 02:09:25 no IDE! Apr 13 02:09:33 the binary mods? Apr 13 02:09:43 * sbromwich offers zsoc his PIII instead Apr 13 02:09:44 aye Apr 13 02:09:55 [ 370.630000] uap8xxx: disagrees about version of symbol struct_module Apr 13 02:10:00 I've cocked up something in .config Apr 13 02:10:06 yeah... those suck. Apr 13 02:10:23 uap8xxx? odd? i have a sd8xxx. Apr 13 02:10:31 that fails too Apr 13 02:10:36 you have the version magic disabled? Apr 13 02:10:46 ~5 seconds later Apr 13 02:10:53 the preempt removal? Apr 13 02:11:07 no under module loading Apr 13 02:11:09 I have it just as "" in vermagic.h Apr 13 02:11:13 ah, sec Apr 13 02:11:49 CONFIG_MODVERSIONS? Apr 13 02:12:33 # CONFIG_MODVERSIONS is not set Apr 13 02:12:33 # CONFIG_MODULE_SRCVERSION_ALL is not set Apr 13 02:13:19 I tried with and without MODVERSION, CONFIG_MODULE_SRCVERSION_ALL is off Apr 13 02:13:32 palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 # uname -a Apr 13 02:13:33 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #1 PREEMPT Tue Apr 13 01:57:29 UTC 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 13 02:13:36 that look right to you? Apr 13 02:14:04 if you cant load the module then those are enabled. Apr 13 02:14:22 hrm Apr 13 02:14:30 OK, I'll try make mrproper once more with feeling Apr 13 02:14:38 thats the only way i get to load modules with all the hacking going on Apr 13 02:14:51 check your /proc/config.gz to check Apr 13 02:14:57 *nod* Apr 13 02:16:14 did you seem my email re udelay btw? Apr 13 02:16:50 yep. nice work Apr 13 02:17:18 well... I think there's a bit more to be done but it's a big step being able to boot the damn thing preempt Apr 13 02:17:31 got a WAN IP too Apr 13 02:17:48 yep. but those binary blobs are going to be trouble Apr 13 02:18:10 yeah, don't see how we can get around those without them being opened :-/ Apr 13 02:18:22 my phone worked mostly in preempt. mostly. i can surf and all but camera and such didnt work. Apr 13 02:18:48 with my kernels or ones you rolled yourself? Apr 13 02:19:13 with one of my many br0k3n kernels... lots of panicing kernels Apr 13 02:19:18 some of mine worked but my theory now is cache overflow making it pull from memory slowing the system down lost enough Apr 13 02:19:20 *grin* Apr 13 02:19:31 I hit over 200 battery pulls yesterday. Apr 13 02:19:43 ^lost enough^just enough Apr 13 02:19:48 if i had more time i would have just as much batttery pulls ;) Apr 13 02:19:51 sbromwich, that's a lot Apr 13 02:20:14 jacques: would you like to try some of my kernels? ;-) Apr 13 02:20:30 * sbromwich toys with putting one of the really broken ones up on PC... Apr 13 02:20:47 "hey, didn't I tell you it was alpha?" Apr 13 02:20:49 etc. Apr 13 02:21:04 sbromwich, I'm not sure yet :-) Apr 13 02:21:15 wuss ;-) Apr 13 02:21:26 its his *only* phone Apr 13 02:21:40 I'm willing to make mine a guinea pig. Apr 13 02:22:04 booting the latest now Apr 13 02:22:10 work phone, ka6sox Apr 13 02:22:20 I wouldn't buy one myself Apr 13 02:22:35 * sbromwich hasn't owned a cellphone since 1997 Apr 13 02:22:37 oh right. Apr 13 02:22:50 you never had a bag phone??? Apr 13 02:22:50 I'm on call, too Apr 13 02:22:55 nup Apr 13 02:23:11 I had a nokia something or other I twiddled about with the ESN and what not on Apr 13 02:23:16 you missed out on life Apr 13 02:23:40 carphone warehouse didn't take too well to me returning it trashed with solder marks. Apr 13 02:23:57 ooh, sounds Apr 13 02:24:14 eth0! Apr 13 02:24:21 worked? Apr 13 02:24:29 just about to find out Apr 13 02:24:40 yup Apr 13 02:24:49 I think I might have been a little excessive on some of the udelays Apr 13 02:24:59 that's also the reason for jerkiness in scrolling, I think Apr 13 02:25:01 oh. Apr 13 02:25:06 * sbromwich just realised something amusing Apr 13 02:25:33 udelay=busywait loop. all the fanboys and their youtube videos are just showing their cpu run a busywait loop faster. Apr 13 02:26:06 cam++ Apr 13 02:27:06 youtube++ Apr 13 02:27:27 what was the other thing that kept bombing? Apr 13 02:27:36 oh, I suppose I'd better check the phone works Apr 13 02:27:40 bineg on call and all Apr 13 02:27:41 brb Apr 13 02:28:34 phone++ Apr 13 02:28:38 oh yeah, mp3 Apr 13 02:28:48 bt? Apr 13 02:29:06 hey i was thinking - instead of screwing around with cryptofs for the X11 stuff, why not use an ext3 loopback file that is dynamically sized? might be tricky though to shrink it Apr 13 02:29:19 mp3++ Apr 13 02:29:31 don't think I've got any bt devices Apr 13 02:29:34 Following instructions on http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Tutorials_Linux_DDNS_Update_Client_ez-ipupdate. When I remount root, I get broadcast messages continuously. Apr 13 02:29:51 3d games? Apr 13 02:29:51 iptables messages? Apr 13 02:30:03 powerd messages. Apr 13 02:30:12 oh yeah... I think a 3d game popped up today so I don't have to try warezing Apr 13 02:30:19 ah yeah, that's annoying Apr 13 02:30:21 sbromwich: yey Apr 13 02:30:22 plug in the usb cable Apr 13 02:30:42 Is there a better way to go about making changes to the file system? Should I make it mount rw by default? Apr 13 02:30:51 beelzabub1, the problem with resizes of ext3 is they require fscks Apr 13 02:31:00 mischko: it gets turned off by default Apr 13 02:31:15 How do you operate in this environment? Apr 13 02:31:24 i.e what's best practices? Apr 13 02:31:44 mischko: you sound like you know what you're doing, my recommendation would be to comment out /media/internal in fstab, reboot, blow it away, recreate smaller, mkdosfs, add back in fstab, reboot Apr 13 02:31:52 that's what I did Apr 13 02:31:52 ka6sox: can you explain why that's a problem? if you carefully pick the size you resize to, you can minimize how frequently you do them Apr 13 02:32:17 for instance, if you are installing 600MB worth of data on something with less than 300 MB free, increase the size by 400-500 MB before-hand Apr 13 02:32:19 is glyder 2 3d? Apr 13 02:32:21 Currently wondering if I bricked it? It's not rebooting. Apr 13 02:32:32 takes a while. Apr 13 02:32:35 beelzabub1, its just an extra step to "dynamically" resize them....takes much more time. Apr 13 02:32:37 how did you reboot? Apr 13 02:32:42 i know glyder2 has problem on some kernel builds Apr 13 02:32:51 how much more time? Apr 13 02:32:57 sbromwich, typed reboot. Apr 13 02:33:13 after remounting back to mount -o remount,ro / Apr 13 02:33:14 beelzabub1, probably double...(thats what my resizes on the Xen machines take) Apr 13 02:33:15 mischko: that should do it, check /var/log/messages on the host pc Apr 13 02:33:32 Host PC is windows box. Apr 13 02:33:37 not using dev mode. Apr 13 02:33:38 what does that mean double? you need absolute numbers Apr 13 02:33:48 then you need to think about how often this operation happens Apr 13 02:33:59 mischko: oh, and /var is mounted writeback rather than /var/log, if you don't care about logs but do care about data corruption on /var you might want to change that Apr 13 02:34:05 if this is an extra 5 seconds every time you install a large package, it's probably not bad at all Apr 13 02:34:12 ahhh... I haven't used windows in over a decade, sorry Apr 13 02:34:14 since the download time will eclipse the resize Apr 13 02:34:27 No reboot. How to reset it? Apr 13 02:34:33 pull the battery Apr 13 02:34:41 power-wiggle is more recommended Apr 13 02:34:44 there's a little button to press on the bottom Apr 13 02:34:51 beelzabub1: that's never worked for me Apr 13 02:35:03 beelzabub1: but I might be DIR... details? Apr 13 02:35:11 really? press power-button & wiggle the mute back and forth Apr 13 02:35:21 beelzabub1, I haven't tried a resize on a Pre of an loopback mounted ext3 partition so I don't know...a test would need to be done. Apr 13 02:35:24 sbromwich: dir? Apr 13 02:35:32 Doing It Rong Apr 13 02:35:34 ka6sox - my point exactly Apr 13 02:35:37 ah Apr 13 02:35:41 so press & hold the power button Apr 13 02:35:59 I pulled off most of the buttons as they were annoying me, which might be half my problem Apr 13 02:36:01 beelzabub1, but...in general it doubles the time of the acutal "resize" by being forced to do an fsck every time. Apr 13 02:36:06 flip the ringer switch back and forth a few times (i think it only needs one, but do 3 flips back & forth just in case) Apr 13 02:36:07 back doesn't want to come off. Which way to pull it when little button is pushed? Apr 13 02:36:23 away from the phone, gently Apr 13 02:36:32 it'll feel like it's about to break Apr 13 02:36:38 mischko: try the power-wiggle first Apr 13 02:36:50 I'd recommend following beelzabub1's advice first though Apr 13 02:37:31 Someone might be interested in this: http://www.oxymoronical.com/blog/2010/04/Firefox-running-on-the-Palm-Pre-mostly Apr 13 02:37:35 beelzabub1, already pulled battery and replaced. Screen is still dark. Apr 13 02:37:38 actually - it might have changed Apr 13 02:37:47 it's button press & volume key Apr 13 02:38:03 now it wakes up. Apr 13 02:38:10 yeah, I ripped off the volume control Apr 13 02:38:26 lol - you don't have any way of triggering the button at all? Apr 13 02:38:27 kept accidentally changing the volume so now I just use the microswitches instead Apr 13 02:38:46 elegantly shaped thumbnail. Apr 13 02:38:53 it doesn't matter - as long as you trigger the same hw switch Apr 13 02:39:12 k, thanks for the info :-) Apr 13 02:39:24 beelzabub1: did you see I appear to have got preempt working? Apr 13 02:39:29 Can we change the boot splash screen so I can see what's going on? Apr 13 02:39:44 heh Apr 13 02:39:46 if only :-) Apr 13 02:39:48 sbromwich: to what extent? have you tried 3d games? Apr 13 02:40:16 what 3d games are available in canada? Apr 13 02:40:23 i had problems doing it internally, but i didn't spend any effort - just flipped the config & manually hacked around with the build system Apr 13 02:40:42 beelzabub1: ramp up the udelays prcm_pwr.c Apr 13 02:41:03 that doesn't sound good - it just sounds like it's delaying pre-emption bugs Apr 13 02:41:15 isn't NFS available for free? Apr 13 02:41:37 if not, aren't there some pre-ware SDL apps? Apr 13 02:41:41 beelzabub1: it also stops the phone hanging on wake from suspend Apr 13 02:41:55 no nfs Apr 13 02:42:16 gllyder2? Apr 13 02:42:42 just installed it but apparently with preware alpha + palm catalog there are too many cards running and memory is "critically low" Apr 13 02:42:50 asphalt demo? assassins creed demo? Apr 13 02:43:00 so low I can switch cards to kill, waiting on killall -KILL LunaSysMgr Apr 13 02:43:05 sbromwich: that does not sound right Apr 13 02:43:06 ^can^can't Apr 13 02:43:10 zsoc: nup Apr 13 02:43:22 I think I can pay for NFS but that's it Apr 13 02:43:24 interesting - so i don't know the details of the phone hanging. is this affecting everyone or just some people? Apr 13 02:43:26 sounds like an inflated feed bug all over again Apr 13 02:43:46 beelzabub1: what are you talking about? the luna resets on wakeup? Apr 13 02:43:58 beelzabub1: I've had a few people report it, ~5% of the time hitting the power button results in either a hard lock + black screen, or luna restart Apr 13 02:44:06 ... /how do you not know about that/ Apr 13 02:44:16 mine hardlocks when UNLOCKING Apr 13 02:44:18 not when locking Apr 13 02:44:21 zsoc: is it a common problem? Apr 13 02:44:30 it starts to turn on, then goes black and reboots Apr 13 02:44:34 VincentLaw: unlocking with PIN? Apr 13 02:44:37 i wouldn't outside of talking to you guys unless i encounter it myself since i'm not on any team that would be responsible for fixing it Apr 13 02:44:41 sbromwich: extremely. every single pre on 1.4 i was able to repeat it on Apr 13 02:44:43 VincentLaw: yeah, that's it Apr 13 02:44:45 i got few times black screen Apr 13 02:44:48 no PIN lock but yea Apr 13 02:44:50 while unlocking Apr 13 02:44:53 is this pre or pre plus? Apr 13 02:44:57 mine's a pre Apr 13 02:44:59 oh... well yeah, this kernel seems to fix it Apr 13 02:45:00 & is this with or without preware Apr 13 02:45:01 pre Apr 13 02:45:02 1.4.1 fixed it some, which is why i initially thought it was a json parser thing Apr 13 02:45:03 with Apr 13 02:45:18 my pre also tends to lock up when rebooting (circle stops and it never finishes shutting down) Apr 13 02:45:38 I think someone tried to be cute with power saving and at the same time make sure scrolling in the menu didn't get laggy Apr 13 02:45:48 I've sacrificed a little lagginess in return for stability Apr 13 02:45:50 damn - with preware it's kinda hard to diagnose if it's the patches you guys make or not Apr 13 02:45:57 beelzabub1: does pretty much everyone at palm uses palm's phones? or no? (im just curious) Apr 13 02:46:06 oh, this is with my own kernel :-) Apr 13 02:46:24 ok, trying glyder again Apr 13 02:46:44 mine's crashed without the custom kernel :p Apr 13 02:46:52 beelzabub1: in all fairness, Preware is just an installer :) we don't make patches. although we tend to facilitate their distribution... Apr 13 02:47:23 en0x - i can't speak to that since i don't actually know. people can use whatever phone they want. i can only say that I live on my device Apr 13 02:47:50 besides, 3x3 is ugly. I couldn't own a webOS phone with a 3x3 launcher ;) Apr 13 02:48:01 i know - but sbromwich says that he has his own custom kernel. so to determine whether or not this is a bug, we would need to have a stock webos release that has this problem Apr 13 02:48:05 beelzabub1: kk thx Apr 13 02:48:09 zsoc: 4x4 ftw! Apr 13 02:48:31 which issue are you talking about beelzabub1, the lock screen crash? Apr 13 02:48:35 because I've had it on a stock pre Apr 13 02:48:45 beelzabub1, when in the installation would we resize? Apr 13 02:48:54 beelzabub1: I'm fixing it because I found it to be a bug in the stock kernel Apr 13 02:49:07 is glyder 3d? Apr 13 02:49:13 ka6sox: when you install an app in preware, part of the process would be to fix the size of the partition Apr 13 02:49:18 beelzabub1: there's a thread somewhere on the official forums, hold on i'll find it Apr 13 02:49:18 glyder is Apr 13 02:49:19 monopoly is 3D :D Apr 13 02:49:27 sorry - i don't have time to read the forum Apr 13 02:49:27 There doesn't seem to be a quick dial pad where your speed-dial'd people are all in a quck list, like there was in the Palm Centro. Any app/patch for that? Apr 13 02:49:42 3d works Apr 13 02:49:43 mischko: there's about 10 apps that do that Apr 13 02:49:46 also I am crap at glyder Apr 13 02:49:55 glyder is awesome Apr 13 02:50:04 beelzabub1, kk Apr 13 02:50:05 VincentLaw - is that a different issue? sbromwich was talking about some kind of freeze on wake from suspend Apr 13 02:50:17 right Apr 13 02:50:18 zsoc,Ok. I'll find 'em. Apr 13 02:50:30 you go to unlock it, as the screen turns on, it goes black again and reboots Apr 13 02:50:32 sbromwich - how'd you get the 3d driver loaded on a pre-empt kernel? Apr 13 02:50:32 palm logo, etc Apr 13 02:50:50 VincentLaw - does that happen often enough you can reproduce? Apr 13 02:51:03 uNiXpSyChO noted that it works if on makes "preempt " in vermagic.h "" instead it works Apr 13 02:51:08 it's not often enough, only happens every other day for me Apr 13 02:51:35 beelzabub1: i have seen, that it generally happens when one has notifications waiting for them Apr 13 02:51:37 VincentLaw: ok - can you do a collect logs next time it happens & email it to me? Apr 13 02:51:50 if I remember yeah :p Apr 13 02:52:09 idw2k|wirc: aren't you one of the people with the crash on wake bug? Apr 13 02:52:10 i got the black screen sometimes without reboot Apr 13 02:52:12 do you guys know about collect logs? Apr 13 02:52:17 it looked like pre would not wake up Apr 13 02:52:30 i had to wait a minute and press a power button again Apr 13 02:52:39 happened to m like 3 times since 1.4.1 Apr 13 02:52:49 so there's a difference between luna crashing & kernel crashing Apr 13 02:53:24 what you'll typically see is that if luna crashes is that novacom doesn't die & the flashing palm logo happens much earlier than it would on a real reboot Apr 13 02:53:34 sbromwich: yes, I've had that bug Apr 13 02:54:03 you'll also see the screen doesn't go dark - it stays at whatever the last screen was IIRC & then shows a flashing palm logo Apr 13 02:54:04 beelzabub1, you the precentral palm "my responses are a stock pre" guy? Apr 13 02:54:23 beelzabub1: yes, we understand what a luna crash is :) please explain this 'collect logs'... Apr 13 02:54:38 ##logs# right? Apr 13 02:54:55 i believe so Apr 13 02:55:09 ok - otherwise i'd have to check if i could tell you guys about it Apr 13 02:55:20 idw2k|wirc: are you running a stock kernel or overclocked? Apr 13 02:55:22 FuMan: can you clarify what you mean? Apr 13 02:56:07 beelzabub1, there was a guy on precentral Apr 13 02:56:17 asking for the wakeup reset logs Apr 13 02:56:27 no - i don't hang out on the forums Apr 13 02:56:30 im assuming he works for palm, has a signature that references the way he answers Apr 13 02:56:39 oh, well then if thats the case, open wide and i can load you with logs :P Apr 13 02:56:44 i get a reset at least 4-5 times a day Apr 13 02:57:10 sbromwich: overclocked Apr 13 02:57:13 careful though - time i spend looking at your logs is less time i'm doing useful work Apr 13 02:57:17 hm.. FuMan offering his load of logs... Apr 13 02:57:24 FuMan, be nice... Help is here. Apr 13 02:57:37 anyone got the hang on boot problem that is *not* running overclocked? Apr 13 02:57:56 it would be nice if someone here could collate logs vs bugs Apr 13 02:57:56 * sbromwich bears in mind that delay is on a busywait loop that is bogomips dependent Apr 13 02:58:06 that would at least save me a lot of time Apr 13 02:58:20 I tried reporting a problem on the palm forums. Apr 13 02:58:24 beelzabub1, when I hear of this I'll as for logs. Apr 13 02:58:26 it would still be stuff i'm doing on my own time though, so be mindful Apr 13 02:58:38 beelzabub1, thanks. Apr 13 02:58:44 indeed, danke Apr 13 02:58:45 I had someone bitch at me that I was wrong, I explained further what the bug was, when I checked back again today the thread had been deleted. Apr 13 02:58:46 logs + configuration would be useful Apr 13 02:58:57 in that preferabbly no pre-ware stuff Apr 13 02:59:04 or at least marked as such so i can give it a lower priority Apr 13 02:59:09 kk Apr 13 02:59:13 beelzabub1: http://forums.palmone.com/t5/webOS-Software/Random-restarts-WebOS-1-4/td-p/262256;jsessionid=49628F50C9A3491EE2589203365BF541 Apr 13 02:59:15 are you volunteering? Apr 13 02:59:23 I am reasonably (though not 100%) sure that I saw it with the stock kernel too **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 13 02:59:56 2010