**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 13 02:59:56 2010 Apr 13 03:00:04 http://www.unixpsycho.com/uImage.141.preempt Apr 13 03:00:08 it would be nice if in that forum the tech support person had mentioned the bug report # Apr 13 03:00:10 http://www.unixpsycho.com/config.141.preempt Apr 13 03:00:13 imo a lot of this was fixed by rolling back the json parser in 1.4.1(.1) Apr 13 03:00:23 beelzabub1, I'm willing to collect information to forward to you if I hear of these kinds things happening. Apr 13 03:00:26 beelzabub1: rarely do things work that smoothly inter-company :) Apr 13 03:00:37 I just got told "well you want to keep /var/log in case there's errors" - it's not /var/log that's the problem, it's /var Apr 13 03:00:52 geist knows the error and he thinks much the same as me Apr 13 03:00:59 /var should not be mounted writeback Apr 13 03:01:04 Hardbeatz Apr 13 03:01:09 thats the guy I was talking about earlier Apr 13 03:01:15 why do you think that? Apr 13 03:01:30 risk of data corruption Apr 13 03:01:41 which I have seen myself Apr 13 03:02:09 we already went over this fire drill a while back - the performance benefits are significant. there's a kernel bug open which i need to generate some noise on which exacerbates the problem Apr 13 03:02:28 this is why we don't recommend ever just pulling the battery Apr 13 03:02:37 performance benefits are not that significant if anticipatory scheduler is used instead Apr 13 03:02:45 well, yes, it's pulling the power Apr 13 03:03:49 not recommended for FS integrity Apr 13 03:03:55 but it means if there's any sort of crash /var is at risk for corruption Apr 13 03:03:59 * writeback mode Apr 13 03:04:00 In data=writeback mode, ext3 does not journal data at all. This mode provides Apr 13 03:04:02 a similar level of journaling as that of XFS, JFS, and ReiserFS in its default Apr 13 03:04:04 mode - metadata journaling. A crash+recovery can cause incorrect data to Apr 13 03:04:06 appear in files which were written shortly before the crash. This mode will Apr 13 03:04:08 typically provide the best ext3 performance. Apr 13 03:04:09 we know Apr 13 03:04:15 From Documentation/filesystems/ext3.txt Apr 13 03:04:18 there was a lot of debate going back & forth Apr 13 03:04:42 *nod* Apr 13 03:04:52 I found anticipatory to give a bigger performance boost anyway Apr 13 03:05:07 http://tinyurl.com/yag7xlo Apr 13 03:05:27 i can bring it up again, but geist is really the person to talk to about the io scheduler Apr 13 03:05:27 openoffice spreadsheet of benchmark results is attached to that Apr 13 03:05:48 *nod* Apr 13 03:06:19 the comment i got from another co-worker was that bonnie wasn't representative & that dbench is better Apr 13 03:06:42 bonnie is good enough to give a rough idea, and it compiled cleanly on my pre Apr 13 03:07:00 next conference call I'm on with time to burn, I'll try dbench instead Apr 13 03:07:31 the argument was that bonnie doesn't generate simultaneous workloads which is what we need. bonnie is definitely a useful metric to have - more data is always good Apr 13 03:08:39 *nod* Apr 13 03:08:55 that was more to settle a discussion with someone who was handwaving and couldn't produce numbers Apr 13 03:09:05 i understand Apr 13 03:09:07 I was surprised myself by some of the numbers - seeks in particular Apr 13 03:11:33 yeah, well the advantage of any IO scheduler over noop isn't completely surprising. what you find, even on desktop, is that the NAND is so fast that the controller/DMA is the slow part & it just reverses the problem so that re-ordering IO still gives you a performance boost Apr 13 03:12:16 the only time it won't is if you're IO subsystem is so fast it can supply data to the CPU faster than it can reschedule IO requests Apr 13 03:12:16 that was the point I was trying to prove ;-) Apr 13 03:12:36 i don't think that'll be the case for quite a while (especially on embedded) Apr 13 03:12:41 *nod* Apr 13 03:13:17 that being said, real performance numbers always outweigh theoretical discussions Apr 13 03:13:18 I believe anticipatory puts more work in, more cpu is burnt as the cost for the seeks Apr 13 03:13:23 *grin* Apr 13 03:13:31 that again was the point I was trying to prove ;-) Apr 13 03:13:41 :) Apr 13 03:14:05 just saying that my theoretical discussion above about why noop will always be slower can be disproved quite easily Apr 13 03:14:29 & it very well could be - it's a gross oversimplification of computer systems which these days are insanely complex and interdependant Apr 13 03:16:04 oh exactly Apr 13 03:16:20 anyone else find d-pad controls on a touch-screen to be obnoxious? Apr 13 03:16:34 yes Apr 13 03:16:36 I went in with the theory that noop would be faster across the board, testing proved that I was wrong on certain points Apr 13 03:16:50 dial pad? Apr 13 03:17:26 D-pad - as in old school nintendo controller Apr 13 03:17:31 up/down/left/right Apr 13 03:17:35 ahhhhh Apr 13 03:17:36 directional, methinks Apr 13 03:17:39 * sbromwich is not a gamer :-) Apr 13 03:17:49 heh Apr 13 03:17:54 i find even those suck - i'm not, but i gotta "test" living on the pre somehow, right :) Apr 13 03:18:12 *grin* Apr 13 03:18:20 kernel is out there for the numpties. Apr 13 03:18:40 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/241483-1-4-1-kernel-destroy-your-phone.html Apr 13 03:18:50 the QSWA layout for dpad on the pre is awesome Apr 13 03:18:55 use it on visualboy advance Apr 13 03:19:49 the what layout? Apr 13 03:19:57 * sbromwich suddenly feels a complete newbie again Apr 13 03:20:42 sbromwich, the 4 buttons in the corner of the keyboard Apr 13 03:20:49 to use in replacement of a + style d-pad Apr 13 03:20:50 oh. Apr 13 03:20:56 use it at an angle Apr 13 03:20:59 now *I* feel like the numpty :-) Apr 13 03:21:00 it's comfortable on the thumb that way Apr 13 03:21:01 sbromwich, im assuming those are the same links as earlier? Apr 13 03:21:09 FuMan: you assume correctly Apr 13 03:21:25 now, to learn how to install them or no Apr 13 03:21:26 t Apr 13 03:21:29 that, is the big question Apr 13 03:21:40 * VincentLaw thinks sbromwich should release a standard default palm kernel and tell people it's the uber-fast kernel and see if people realize it Apr 13 03:21:45 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Research_Pre_Boot_Process Apr 13 03:21:50 *grin* Apr 13 03:21:55 * sbromwich thinks VincentLaw has a point Apr 13 03:22:11 I have $20 that it takes 10 pages before someone actually says there was no performance improvement Apr 13 03:22:12 *then* we'll find out if there's a crash on boot problem ;-) Apr 13 03:22:26 * sbromwich might be a numpty but he ain't stupid Apr 13 03:22:32 no thanks, VincentLaw Apr 13 03:23:11 whats the default clockspeed on this one sbromwich? Apr 13 03:23:45 good question Apr 13 03:24:55 hrm Apr 13 03:25:13 after i finish my mergers reading, I'm so going to brick my phone in the name of science O_o Apr 13 03:25:17 jeez it's in the config somewhere, just hidden deep in the menus Apr 13 03:26:06 800MHz Apr 13 03:26:35 FuMan, with the development RAM method no bricking required :D Apr 13 03:26:53 FuMan: what ka6sox said Apr 13 03:27:05 that's how I boot all my test kernels Apr 13 03:27:18 uggh - ok. i've stopped doing any useful work so i'm going to go home for the day Apr 13 03:27:22 see you tomorrow guys Apr 13 03:27:30 laters beelzabub1 Apr 13 03:27:33 laters beelzabub1 :-) Apr 13 03:27:40 well, hopefully I can get it all running Apr 13 03:27:49 hmmm... VincentLaw my phone is stuck at 500 too after glyder Apr 13 03:27:59 oh yeah, ka6sox - you probably need my email addr for those logs Apr 13 03:29:00 palm-webos-device cpufreq # for i in scaling_*freq ; do echo $i : `cat $i` ; done Apr 13 03:29:02 scaling_cur_freq : 500000 Apr 13 03:29:04 scaling_max_freq : 125000 Apr 13 03:29:06 scaling_min_freq : 125000 Apr 13 03:29:08 AFU. Apr 13 03:29:08 please try to be mindful that i only have so much spare time & i do want to wind down from work every once in a while Apr 13 03:30:49 how in the hell is it stuck at 500? Apr 13 03:31:24 anyone know how to set away mode in pidgin for irc? Apr 13 03:31:30 alt-f4? Apr 13 03:31:36 lol - nice try Apr 13 03:31:42 beelzabub1, I will try the ext3 resizes and see how that goes. (timing them) Apr 13 03:31:42 * phil_bw wanders by Apr 13 03:31:45 always works for me ;-) Apr 13 03:31:51 aww:-) Apr 13 03:32:49 alright, so what do you guys think of this "firefox port using the PDK"? Apr 13 03:33:16 * swishy 's forst thought was why not fennec Apr 13 03:33:20 ok - i think i've been using adium for far too long. it took me forever to find the status change option that is 0-clicks away on pidgin Apr 13 03:33:27 I think "was it?" Apr 13 03:33:44 I think it looks a lot like firefox in X Apr 13 03:34:09 * sbromwich pines for rootless Apr 13 03:34:18 i think it's awesome regardless of how it was done (although i believe it was using the pdk if that's what they say unless a journalist misunderstood the engineer) Apr 13 03:34:40 I'm just curious as to *how* Apr 13 03:34:56 looks like they took the android code & ported it Apr 13 03:35:10 irony... that's like coppery, right? Apr 13 03:35:10 http://www.oxymoronical.com/blog/2010/04/Firefox-running-on-the-Palm-Pre-mostly Apr 13 03:35:25 almost, but less dangerous than leady Apr 13 03:36:07 ok - now i'm gone for reals Apr 13 03:36:31 beelzabub1, thank you, lot more details there Apr 13 03:36:40 appears he utilizes opengl for graphics Apr 13 03:38:27 weird - he didn't realize gdb came on the device ? Apr 13 03:40:57 TI brought a blaze platform - OMAP4 dev device Apr 13 03:41:57 jacques: dual screens ? Apr 13 03:42:29 bpadalino, there are two screens on it, but it looks like only one is displaying right now Apr 13 03:42:39 it's hard to get close to it :-) ppl like it Apr 13 03:42:40 I just gave him the link to my kernel Apr 13 03:42:44 nice - we have that one at work . it's nice .. Apr 13 03:42:51 (cue collective groan from my banging on about udelay) Apr 13 03:43:01 can output 720p on those 2 screens .. and another video out HDMI all at the same time Apr 13 03:43:08 relatively impressive Apr 13 03:43:10 it's running ubuntu 10.04 beta-something Apr 13 03:43:38 it's a pretty nice chip .. 4430 i believe Apr 13 03:43:54 ask when they will be shipping that chip in production volumes tho .. :( Apr 13 03:44:20 heh, they aren't answering too many of those questions Apr 13 03:44:39 tho apparently one will be able to order the OMAP4 dev board on august 1s Apr 13 03:44:40 t Apr 13 03:44:50 dunno when they will actually get it Apr 13 03:44:59 bet they'll put windows on it too :-/ Apr 13 03:45:06 that sounds promising .. you mean - normal people, or large volume guys ? Apr 13 03:45:24 bpadalino, normal hobbyists is my understanding Apr 13 03:45:37 that omap will run windows, android, symbian, and linux .. hell, i bet they'll put a bootloader on there that can boot whichever one you want Apr 13 03:45:49 bpadalino, and if you can convince them, they will send you one early Apr 13 03:45:50 (they said) Apr 13 03:46:16 very interesting Apr 13 03:46:28 any idea on prices or if they will have something like the beagleboard for omap4 ? Apr 13 03:46:36 according to christopher pearson, product marketing manager Apr 13 03:47:22 bpadalino, the thing available for order on aug 1st _is_ the OMAP4 "beagle board" (they say it won't be called that) Apr 13 03:47:30 ah very cool! Apr 13 03:47:36 will have 1GiB RAM Apr 13 03:47:58 you'll just need to "plug in a keyboard, mouse, and monitor" Apr 13 03:48:03 oh that isn't as much as i had hoped for Apr 13 03:48:45 I think 1GiB sounds pretty good Apr 13 03:49:41 OH! GiB is gibibyte? Apr 13 03:49:46 meaning 8 gigabits ? Apr 13 03:49:48 yep Apr 13 03:49:51 oh then yeah wow Apr 13 03:49:56 as in 4x 256MiB Apr 13 03:50:00 that is much better than i anticipated! Apr 13 03:50:04 excuse me! Apr 13 03:50:07 :-D Apr 13 03:50:29 so many cool chips coming out .. Apr 13 03:50:33 heh, he said give him a card to get on the early access list, and lots of ppl are doing it Apr 13 03:50:39 very nice Apr 13 03:50:50 i wonder how well those omaps are selling for TI Apr 13 03:50:51 I didn't bring any cards, but he gave me one of his and said to email him Apr 13 03:51:09 embracing the hobbyist market has probably helped them Apr 13 03:51:30 bedtime, laters :-) Apr 13 03:51:33 later Apr 13 03:51:40 laters. Apr 13 03:51:42 this looks like it's going to go on for quite a while longer, but I need to eat before things close Apr 13 03:51:43 later bpadalino Apr 13 03:51:52 oops, later sbromwich Apr 13 03:52:14 heh Apr 13 03:55:19 Hey all, anyone have some time to help me with a networking issue with my pre? Apr 13 04:09:31 * Jack87 doesnt know how to view user list on xchat for windows Apr 13 04:15:14 hola Apr 13 04:16:48 hey Jack87 Apr 13 04:18:54 hey Apr 13 04:19:08 i told you firefox/opera will come to webos soon Apr 13 04:19:11 :P Apr 13 04:19:22 oc80z, :) Apr 13 04:19:27 I think I should have the Palm feeds disabled by default when Preware is installed for the first time. Apr 13 04:19:27 pretty exciting stuff Apr 13 04:19:38 rwhitby, agreeded Apr 13 04:19:49 i am so psyched i dumped a thousand bucks in to palm stock Apr 13 04:19:54 oc80z: is that person doing with with native PDK only, or using X11 ? Apr 13 04:19:58 months and months ago Apr 13 04:20:09 rwhitby from what i read so far pdk. Apr 13 04:20:14 but.... Apr 13 04:20:20 rwhitby, i believe its just pdk Apr 13 04:20:36 its got issues, no javascript etc... Apr 13 04:20:37 where is the actual details? Apr 13 04:21:00 rwhitby, here is his personal blog http://www.oxymoronical.com/blog/2010/04/Firefox-running-on-the-Palm-Pre-mostly Apr 13 04:22:06 thx Apr 13 04:22:07 ....its interesting, but overkill. Apr 13 04:22:22 oc80z, i got my hands on 500 shares a week ago and its been promising wish i had made it 1000 Apr 13 04:23:27 i know Apr 13 04:24:29 oc80z, wallstreet doesnt see firefox on the phone sadly haha not unless the media anounces it Apr 13 04:24:55 oc80z: I dont understand why firefox and not fennec Apr 13 04:25:22 fennec? Apr 13 04:25:59 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fennec Apr 13 04:26:55 hmm Apr 13 04:27:10 swishy, i think he works for mozila. and the code for andriod firefox port was already there Apr 13 04:27:34 Jack87: N900 port of fennec runs fine and underlying architecture is similar enough Apr 13 04:27:49 aside I guess the X issue Apr 13 04:28:31 Jack87: and even more of a reason to push fennec over full blown firefox Apr 13 04:28:38 if he works for mozilla Apr 13 04:29:43 oh sorry, Apr 13 04:29:47 javascript works on it. Apr 13 04:29:48 but fennec seems to be getting treated as the irrelevant secondary build which is odd considering the increase in smartphone adoption etc Apr 13 04:29:50 @_@ Apr 13 04:30:07 and like products Apr 13 04:30:35 this is somthing special, eh? Apr 13 04:30:53 swishy, have you used it? Apr 13 04:31:02 webos tablet, where are you? Apr 13 04:31:08 Jack87: fennec? Apr 13 04:31:25 ya Apr 13 04:31:33 nah havent got anything to run it on Apr 13 04:31:56 oc80z, webos tablet will go a long ways... i wonder if its possible to port webos to a netbook to get the ball running Apr 13 04:32:06 but it doesnt seem to make sense to port firefox and fennec exists and is aimed at mobile Apr 13 04:32:08 throw on a touch screen interface Apr 13 04:32:49 swishy, perhaps fennec is just another mobile browser where as firefox is a full blown browser Apr 13 04:33:09 Jack87: yes but think about the footprint Apr 13 04:33:58 fwiw: Fennec is Firefox, mostly just with different chrome Apr 13 04:34:15 minefield! Apr 13 04:35:17 It's easier to port Firefox first and then get the Fennec running after, from what I've heard Apr 13 04:35:41 But I haven't worked on Fx itself, so I couldn't explain why Apr 13 04:36:11 lmorchard: its also optimised to reduce memory footprint Apr 13 04:36:26 ahh that would make sense I guess Apr 13 04:36:53 I don't think Fennec is especially optimized for footprint - there's memory reduction effort going on across the board Apr 13 04:37:52 Hmm, actually, that's probably not quite right and I don't quite know what I'm talking about :) Apr 13 04:38:55 :) Apr 13 04:38:58 But I do work at Mozilla, just in the webdev department and not the Firefox dev department Apr 13 04:39:29 ah nice Apr 13 04:39:37 lmorchard: as in bespin? Apr 13 04:40:11 Not really... that's Developer Tools. I've worked on sites like http://addons.mozilla.org/ and http://support.mozilla.org/ Apr 13 04:40:18 ah right :) Apr 13 04:40:24 sweet Apr 13 04:41:00 And I'm so totally buying mossop beer at the end of the month if he'll give me a build of Fx to crash my pre with Apr 13 04:41:35 what Apr 13 04:44:31 gnight. Apr 13 04:45:39 ah! there's two boraware folk named phil! Apr 13 04:46:16 :) Apr 13 04:46:38 dtzWill: kernels updated Apr 13 04:48:38 Hmm - I think I may release the Original Kernel ipkg to Preware public feeds, as a service for those who might want to easily remove overclocking kernels Apr 13 04:49:45 rwhitby: how confident/tested is the kernel installation procedure? Apr 13 04:50:08 it looks good to me, not saying it's not ready, but as I'm sure you know kernels are serious things :):) Apr 13 04:50:11 lmorchard, whats the deal with this page? http://people.mozilla.com/~csejersen/fennec/req.html Apr 13 04:51:05 rwhitby: but if we think our installer is safe that would be nice. Apr 13 04:51:14 rwhitby: but once the ipkg is installe--if they install oc'd kernel again Apr 13 04:51:21 (etc) Apr 13 04:52:02 rwhitby: what does uninstall do? revert to kernel/libs beforehand? (and does it include the various other files that are modified in oc'd kernel methods, like pmnetconfig, etc?) Apr 13 04:52:23 dtzWill: the original kernel ipkg specifically does nothing on uninstall, and on install it forcibly overwrites Apr 13 04:52:30 lmorchard, that page doesnt seem to exist and there is a link for it on https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fennec Apr 13 04:52:32 rwhitby: ah, kk. Apr 13 04:52:51 of course you already figured that out. well I'm for throwing it in preware :) Apr 13 04:53:05 dtzWill: the palm and uber kernels of course save the current kernel and restore it on uninstall Apr 13 04:53:28 rwhitby, it be so confusing to people with the different "uninstall" methods for users of the overclock kernel perhaps some documentation will be helpful Apr 13 04:54:09 Jack87: the documentation is easy: "Install this package, and your kernel will be back to normal. Period." Apr 13 04:54:32 hrm, something new to play with in Preware you say? Apr 13 04:54:35 * FuMan is in Apr 13 04:54:45 * Jack87 tries to think like a ignorent end user Apr 13 04:54:54 * dtzWill is slightly sad that firefox port didn't use X Apr 13 04:55:09 * dtzWill knows using native libs, particularly GL to render widgets, is probably much better Apr 13 04:55:14 but still hehe :( Apr 13 04:55:15 * Jack87 is not calling end users ignorent just attempting to be like the ignorent type Apr 13 04:55:18 Jack87: it's a last-resort for when the 300 other various kernel installation methods that have been released so far fail to uninstall properly. of course that won't happen, so no-one will need to use this package. Apr 13 04:55:42 rwhitby, haha Apr 13 04:55:50 rwhitby: so does the normal package touch lunasysmgr/pmnetconfig ? Apr 13 04:56:00 dtzWill: nope, they are not part of the kernel Apr 13 04:56:55 rwhitby: right, but in the oc'd scripts distributed, they modify those--and those modifications are to clock the device at higher speeds during boot, etc, right? so what happens if we don't replace those but remove kernel that has those opp's? Apr 13 04:57:26 dtzWill, hits the nail on the head Apr 13 04:57:32 dtzWill: dunno. I expect we'll find out if those things were actually OTA-safe or not. Apr 13 04:57:38 rwhitby: LOL Apr 13 04:57:52 rwhitby: alright, i'll duck out then :) Apr 13 04:58:15 rwhitby: diff question--i know you were poking at having kernels clearly identify themselves, and listed such as a requirement (see? I _did_ read that post :D) Apr 13 04:58:21 rwhitby: is there currently a method of doing so? Apr 13 04:58:24 well, I need to push a new Preware version first anyway, so it knows how to deal with Type:Kernel Apr 13 04:58:34 such things should be stated Apr 13 04:58:45 rwhitby: knowing that before I tried to install the new kernel on my device might've been useful hehe Apr 13 04:58:51 dtzWill: yep, install one of them and cat /proc/version Apr 13 04:58:53 * dtzWill is getting very good at recoveringhis device Apr 13 04:58:57 rwhitby: wonderful, ty Apr 13 04:59:23 dtzWill: we use the user@host bit for version@packageid Apr 13 04:59:56 rwhitby: slick. I might have misread what you said before. preware alpha should be able to install these, right? Apr 13 05:00:14 bah maintaining two versions of preware is probably not your favorite thing. what's keeping preware alpha from becoming non-alpha? Apr 13 05:00:15 * Jack87 is excited about dtzWill & phil's x project Apr 13 05:00:43 Jack87: no, the original kernel package is unrelated to any previous packages that were not in preware. it is up to the authors of those packages to support the installation of those packages. they may choose to utilize the original package as part of that solution, but it is not designed to be that solution, and will not be extended in that direction. Apr 13 05:00:57 dtzWill: actually, the front-end is identical. Apr 13 05:01:12 dtzWill: all I do is a git tag and bump the version in the testing feed Apr 13 05:01:19 Jack87: :):). good. BE. EXCITED. BE BE EXCITED. Apr 13 05:01:32 rwhitby: oh, nice. :). Apr 13 05:01:32 dtzWill: it's built from exactly the same source Apr 13 05:02:01 dtzWill: and the only real thing left to solve is the "probably updated" issue Apr 13 05:02:52 * dtzWill regrets mentioning that movie Apr 13 05:03:02 rwhitby, that maybe so but it should be clear that the original kernel ipk is not an official method of removing other unrelated kernel builds Apr 13 05:03:07 dtzWill: any version of preware can install the autobuilt kernels. as can palm-install. maybe even filecoaster these days Apr 13 05:03:19 filecoaster is still around? Apr 13 05:03:19 Jack87: yes, it will not state such Apr 13 05:03:32 ...I don't mean that negatively, I just haven't heard about it much lately Apr 13 05:03:43 Jack87: the "Original Kernel" package will make no mention of other unrelated kernel packages Apr 13 05:03:58 rwhitby, haha you know people will assume otherwiese Apr 13 05:04:03 otherwise* Apr 13 05:04:05 cat /proc/versiocat /proc/version Apr 13 05:04:05 root@palm-webos-device:/var/home/root# cat /proc/version Apr 13 05:04:05 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (v1.4.1-2@org.webosinternals.kernels.uber-kernel-pre) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #5 Tue Apr 13 04:45:33 UTC 2010 Apr 13 05:04:16 ah, thought it was just 2 lines. well, deal it's too late :P Apr 13 05:04:19 anyway \o/ Apr 13 05:04:23 rwhitby: ^^^^^^^^^ excellent Apr 13 05:04:40 3d works, etc, seems to be just fine Apr 13 05:04:56 dtzWill, are you messing with scalling in your build? Apr 13 05:05:02 dtzWill: yeah, uber with no additional settings changes should work identical to stock Apr 13 05:05:18 scalling is what causes the issues i have seen Apr 13 05:05:22 rwhitby: what does.. the launcher icon do? :) Apr 13 05:05:28 dtzWill: oh, that worked? Apr 13 05:05:28 it's pulsating at me Apr 13 05:05:38 * dtzWill hopes it isn't running rm -rf Apr 13 05:05:43 dtzWill: you can orange+tap it to revert Apr 13 05:06:07 * dtzWill considers that he just installed a kernel he didn't compile himself, so running random code as root is the least of his worries Apr 13 05:06:14 rwhitby: no kidding! Apr 13 05:06:36 dtzWill: ah, but you can view the build log at logs.nslu2-linux.org to see how it was built Apr 13 05:06:39 to be clear running it does nothing. Apr 13 05:06:51 dtzWill: yeah, I need to actually make it do nothing better. Apr 13 05:07:01 rwhitby: yeah, and I'm kidding. this system as transparent as it gets--and if i REALLY cared i'd build myself, etc Apr 13 05:07:08 look at patches, etc, etc Apr 13 05:07:14 where does the paranoia stop?? Apr 13 05:07:15 :) Apr 13 05:07:25 rwhitby: kk. probably thought of this--but perhaps a short blub there? Apr 13 05:07:42 dtzWill: yeah, like the package manager service has if you click on that icon Apr 13 05:07:45 a stupid html page describing what kernel they're running (maybe), but at least mentioning that they can orange+tap remove it? Apr 13 05:07:53 rwhitby: yeah but that goes away after reboot Apr 13 05:09:25 rwhitby: anyway it's a nice idea, and I'm happy to report the kernel is up and running :) Apr 13 05:09:30 dtzWill: yeah, this one will stay. Apr 13 05:09:45 dtzWill: will probably replicate the description into a static web page for the icon Apr 13 05:09:57 rwhitby: sounds perfect. no reason to write more Apr 13 05:10:39 right - these things should just work as expected. install a package to install it, orange+tap to remove it Apr 13 05:11:07 (which reminds me we need to get preware to subscribe to the service that notifies of package removals, so that Preware can stay up to date when it's open) Apr 13 05:11:08 testing kernel removal... Apr 13 05:11:35 hey orange+tap can't/doesn't trigger a reboot? Apr 13 05:11:43 if that's a limitation then okay, if not then it's broken Apr 13 05:12:02 dtzWill: no, unfortunately. triggering a reboot on orange+tap without some sort of confirmation would be a bit anti-social Apr 13 05:12:19 rwhitby: fair enough. so make it pop up a dialog :P Apr 13 05:12:26 rwhitby: anyway this should be fine, just making sure that was known/expected behvaior Apr 13 05:12:39 dtzWill: we need zenity ported, so the prerm can pop up a message Apr 13 05:12:52 rwhitby: oooo Apr 13 05:12:59 rwhitby: well can notifications be hijacked for that? Apr 13 05:13:08 dtzWill: yeah, I was just thinking the same Apr 13 05:13:13 rwhitby: "UBer kernel wants to reboot" *clicky* reboot Apr 13 05:13:21 "to complete uninstallation", etc Apr 13 05:13:25 * dtzWill lets someone else wordsmith it :) Apr 13 05:13:36 rwhitby: sounds good Apr 13 05:14:02 press control alt del! Apr 13 05:14:03 :) Apr 13 05:14:08 * rwhitby waits to see if dtzWill's device reports the correct /proc/version after reboot Apr 13 05:14:36 dtzWill: did you go direct from virgin to uber then orange+tap ? Apr 13 05:14:43 rwhitby: I did indeed Apr 13 05:15:26 dtzWill: ok, the proof will be a palm user@host in /proc/version Apr 13 05:15:39 rwhitby: beta@web1.xss.net.com Apr 13 05:15:41 err o_O Apr 13 05:15:42 lol Apr 13 05:15:48 is that a palm user@host?? Apr 13 05:15:51 does uber include scaling or not? Apr 13 05:16:01 :( what did I install :P Apr 13 05:16:10 Jack87: http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/241355-next-generation-kernel-development-packaging.html principle #4 Apr 13 05:16:25 rwhitby, thank you Apr 13 05:17:04 rwhitby, i am glad!!!! Apr 13 05:17:13 rwhitby: other than not being sure if that host is valid, the orange+tap worked Apr 13 05:17:30 dtzWill: I get (na@na) for vendor kernel binary Apr 13 05:17:36 I would hope it'd be some palm.com domain? Apr 13 05:17:37 o_O Apr 13 05:17:52 build wed mar 17 23:05:35 EDT 2010 Apr 13 05:18:02 dtzWill: if I was palm, I wouldn't expose username and host of my build peopel Apr 13 05:18:16 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (na@na) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #1 281.1.23 Apr 13 05:18:23 rwhitby: right, but any reason they couldn't do kernel@palm.com, etc? Apr 13 05:18:23 dtzWill: ^^ that's virgin Apr 13 05:18:32 Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (beta@web1.xssnet.com) (gcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #9 Wed Mar 17 23:05:35 EDT 2010 Apr 13 05:18:52 dtzWill: my guess is you've installed some other kernel previously Apr 13 05:18:58 hrm. it's possible I have something installed before o_O Apr 13 05:19:08 dtzWill: you can now try out the original kernel package Apr 13 05:19:09 so how about that vanilla kernel package Apr 13 05:19:10 haha Apr 13 05:19:25 all part of my master testing plan... Apr 13 05:19:30 of course Apr 13 05:19:42 * dtzWill finds it humorous that he can't remember what kernel he installed last Apr 13 05:19:53 dtzWill: is that your main phone? Apr 13 05:19:53 * Jack87 wonders of dtzWill means the original kernel that rwhitby packaged as the "vanilla" Apr 13 05:20:17 rwhitby, i think he only has one phone Apr 13 05:20:36 Jack87: no, we bought him a second I believe Apr 13 05:20:49 sweetness Apr 13 05:21:16 man i been goan for way too long Apr 13 05:21:27 we've bought 7 of those so far, at about $180 each, from community donations. Apr 13 05:21:28 yep I got two :D. this is my main one, but that's b/c the other is apt-get'ing some shit presently :) Apr 13 05:21:48 and worst case I can call sprint and have them activate my testing device xD, apparently they can do that in ~1hour Apr 13 05:21:53 online form, etc Apr 13 05:21:59 rwhitby, what kinda pre's are 180? Apr 13 05:22:17 * rwhitby has a rule that my main phone does not get anything installed on it unless it has come from Preware production feeds. Apr 13 05:22:21 Jack87: rather nice ones--sprint pre in good condition Apr 13 05:22:22 Jack87: second hand sprint Apr 13 05:22:34 rwhitby: that's a reasonable rule. if I had a job that required any kind of phone uptime I might reconsider Apr 13 05:22:50 dtzWill: s/job/wife/ Apr 13 05:22:53 dtzWill, if they are sprint pre's you can activate it yourself online within min if needed (online) Apr 13 05:23:11 rwhitby: haha. i WAS almost last picking up my gf when testing kernels a while back, before testing device Apr 13 05:23:38 she was good about it, but I think she's probably prefer if I stuck to my testing device :) Apr 13 05:23:41 maybe I should.... Apr 13 05:23:49 rwhitby: j/w how/why'd you think that was my main? :) Apr 13 05:23:51 * rwhitby remembers the poster we had about girlfriends Apr 13 05:23:58 poster? haha Apr 13 05:24:06 rwhitby, i want to see the poster Apr 13 05:24:14 * dtzWill isn't sure if he wants to see a poster of rwhitby's girlfriend :P Apr 13 05:24:18 (i kid I kid) Apr 13 05:24:22 dtzWill: really early in the project we had a guy who was debugging a critical error Apr 13 05:24:34 dtzWill: he pasted-bined something, and we needed extra detail Apr 13 05:24:43 dtzWill: but he had to go out with his girlfriend Apr 13 05:24:50 (no offense meant to the ms rwhitby) Apr 13 05:24:52 * dtzWill listens Apr 13 05:24:53 and someone here created a posted about the situation Apr 13 05:24:59 haha Apr 13 05:25:01 haha Apr 13 05:25:10 let's see if I can find it in the logs Apr 13 05:25:14 rwhitby: na@na Apr 13 05:25:23 rwhitby: ca-ching. wonder what kernel that other one was... :) Apr 13 05:25:39 only other kernl I've toyed with is the caj2008 one so that must've been it Apr 13 05:25:54 * Jack87 cant remember his sprint login Apr 13 05:25:58 where to get Python package? Apr 13 05:26:10 but... I don't think I was scaling up.. bah. now i'm curious. Apr 13 05:26:23 is anyone running caj's kernel here? could you post 'cat /proc/version'? Apr 13 05:27:37 come on you overclocking lot I know someone is :D Apr 13 05:28:20 dtzWill, i am running 720 MHz kernel Apr 13 05:28:26 i can post in just a momment Apr 13 05:28:28 rwhitby: I would say kernel packaging test is a win. Apr 13 05:28:30 Jack87: ty sir Apr 13 05:31:06 dtzWill, Linux version 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 (beta@web1.xssnet.com) (gcc version 4.2.(CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)) #9 Wed Mar 17 23:05:35 EDT 2010 Apr 13 05:31:22 Jack87: tyvm. that must've been it then. whoopsy Apr 13 05:31:56 what? sorry im just the annoying guy feeding off your guy's knowledge Apr 13 05:32:24 mischko didn't wait long ... Apr 13 05:32:28 * Jack87 cant find phone actication options on sprints new site Apr 13 05:32:54 Jack87: http://sprint.com/activate Apr 13 05:33:35 dtzWill, haha and i was looking to show you! Apr 13 05:34:40 dtzWill, haha and i was looking to show you! the irony! Apr 13 05:34:47 Jack87: haha ty Apr 13 05:34:59 Jack87: I ran into that the other day when I was curious about having BOTH activated :) Apr 13 05:35:17 crazy idea and illustrating my lack of knowledge about how the device's work perhaps but still something I wanted a good understanding of Apr 13 05:35:23 which.. never happened :) Apr 13 05:35:51 yes.. its handy for those wee hours of the night when their CS is closed Apr 13 05:35:55 yes.. its handy for those wee hours of the night when their CS is closed Apr 13 05:36:22 found it: http://filebin.ca/cuvohe Apr 13 05:36:45 dtzWill, i have had the instence when i activate one device the old device still continues to have data capabilities.. which was odd. but goes away after a day or two Apr 13 05:36:53 rwhitby: netsplit--what are you talking about? Apr 13 05:37:33 * rwhitby remembers the poster we had about girlfriends Apr 13 05:37:35 found it: http://filebin.ca/cuvohe Apr 13 05:37:39 * Jack87 remembers he needs food to survice Apr 13 05:38:01 now at http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Image:Girlfriends.jpeg Apr 13 05:38:49 rwhitby, hahaha! Apr 13 05:38:50 11 minutes to find it in the logs Apr 13 05:39:04 webos-internals.20090913.txt:Sep 12 03:32:50 Apr 13 05:39:09 rwhitby, at least you knew the time frame to look at Apr 13 05:39:10 hahaha Apr 13 05:39:37 rwhitby, ive had times where i had no clue!!! drove me nuts (luckily nothing more then 5min otherwise id give up) Apr 13 05:40:08 http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals/webos-internals.20090913.txt starting at Sep 12 03:19:17 Apr 13 05:44:28 grep works wonders. Apr 13 05:46:16 * rwhitby continues kernel install/uninstall testing Apr 13 05:46:24 dtzWill: did you like the new icon too? Apr 13 06:06:26 rwhitby: yes! what's the chip say? Apr 13 06:07:11 dtzWill: WI (WebOS Internals) Apr 13 06:07:20 rwhitby: ahh. i was like wtf "Wii"? :) Apr 13 06:10:06 :) Apr 13 06:11:49 and/or a really poorly aliased TI Apr 13 06:11:49 lol Apr 13 06:12:07 * dtzWill laughs at his own joke Apr 13 06:13:46 rwhitby: what'll happen if someone installs a kernel while installing another? Apr 13 06:13:53 *installs a kernel while they have another installed Apr 13 06:14:05 * dtzWill switches to testing device to try it Apr 13 06:16:01 hey - kinda off topic but anyone have any experience with an airlink 101? Apr 13 06:16:09 well, not kinda. definitely Apr 13 06:16:11 :) Apr 13 06:16:34 the speed keeps dropping & i need to keep resetting it to get back full speed Apr 13 06:16:56 and if not, how about a recommendation for a better router. ideally i want 802.11N that can run tomato Apr 13 06:17:59 * dtzWill bought a wrt54gl today, finally. Apr 13 06:18:34 been using roommates' router for last year or so, and it's a POS Apr 13 06:19:41 same here - i left my wrt54g (v4 i believe) at my mom's place before moving out here Apr 13 06:19:49 dtzWill: is it openwrt/ddwrt? Apr 13 06:20:03 i figured i'd get an N but it doesn't seem like anyone has the third party firmware working on N Apr 13 06:20:21 and i found the stock firmware for routers blows compared to tomato Apr 13 06:21:01 beelzabub1: I got m costco wrt320N at costco running ddwrt firmware on it it's great Apr 13 06:21:41 he upgraded to a new one 'round xmas, came back with it all excited. it was the worst router I've ever had the misfortunate to use, and I still regret letting my computer interact with it Apr 13 06:21:50 I just hope that one day my computer will forgive me Apr 13 06:22:11 Jack87-wIRC: I was looking at throwing ddwrt on it when I got it--certainly purcahsed it for the thirt party firmware possibilities Apr 13 06:22:30 beelzabub: chat to the guys in #openwrt-devel Apr 13 06:22:46 thanks Apr 13 06:22:49 my favorite two bugs were: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20719047-ProblemBelkin-N1-Vision-disconnects-on-a-2hour-intereval Apr 13 06:22:52 url is enough Apr 13 06:23:10 as well as it had a big that it stored uptime in (signed!) 16bit number so it rebooted every 2 days or something Apr 13 06:23:17 *bug Apr 13 06:23:20 belkins are a pain for custom firmware Apr 13 06:23:37 did you read what I said. I don't want any hardware anywhere near me that ships with that kind of bug Apr 13 06:24:14 somewhere in documentation it suggested you power it off for 4 hours a day to prevent it from overheating Apr 13 06:24:17 lol Apr 13 06:24:20 it was a winner Apr 13 06:24:20 sorry for all the OT talk Apr 13 06:24:27 haha Apr 13 06:24:28 haha wow! Apr 13 06:24:44 sorry for starting it - i'm just really frustated with my router at home. i want to smash it into the ground Apr 13 06:24:48 4hrs/day...thats just great. Apr 13 06:25:03 I'm trying to find links again, but I just couldn't believe how fail a device this was Apr 13 06:25:06 here's what you want: http://www.soekris.com/net4801.htm + m0n0wall Apr 13 06:25:17 i've had one for like 6 years now. works like a champ Apr 13 06:25:33 if anyone remembers (zsoc?) that was the day I signed off every 2 hours like clockwork and spammed everyone :) Apr 13 06:25:42 had a nearly 600 day uptime till the last power outage last month Apr 13 06:26:03 rwhitby: you can install kernels over one another, thoughts on how to handle that? Apr 13 06:26:13 beelzabub1: look for wrt320Nv1 Apr 13 06:26:28 dtzWill: when we add md5sum checks, that will fail Apr 13 06:26:32 rwhitby: btw you're doing great work packaging this and getting al lot of things right, I'm just throwing things out there for now.. since I don't have all the time to help dev lately Apr 13 06:26:36 rwhitby: great Apr 13 06:26:58 dtzWill: the critical review is appreciated Apr 13 06:29:44 dtzWill: original kernel packages are bound for the testing feed Apr 13 06:29:55 (the normal webos-internals testing feed) Apr 13 06:30:06 rwhitby: any reason to test those vs the ones we're already testing? Apr 13 06:30:34 geist - can you hook up an 802.11N? is it powerful enough to keep up with a high-bandwidth connection? Apr 13 06:30:37 dtzWill: sure is, they are built differently (from doctor, not from source) Apr 13 06:30:57 beelzabub: sure Apr 13 06:30:59 rwhitby: oh I thought the original kernel packagse in hardware were vanilla too? Apr 13 06:31:23 also I think I'll run the uber kernel for a few days see how it goes :) Apr 13 06:31:28 dtzWill:they are, but I'm creating version-specific ones now, that all go in the same feed (not in versioned feeds) Apr 13 06:31:58 geist - did you go boarding today? Apr 13 06:32:09 rwhitby: oh okay. Apr 13 06:38:25 rwhitby: do you like the show 'legend of the seeker'? Apr 13 06:38:39 never heard of it Apr 13 06:39:58 rwhitby: the star is an ausi (sorry correct me with that word) Apr 13 06:40:51 i have a pre with a broken screen. i can root into it though. whats the best way to clear all the info on the device? Apr 13 06:41:43 hekevintran: 1.3 webos doctor Apr 13 06:41:47 Jack87-wIRC: aussie Apr 13 06:42:19 Jack87-wIRC: gonna be hard to find one of those these days Apr 13 06:42:21 rwhitby: it's bassed on novels by terry goodking (sword of truth series) Apr 13 06:42:28 Jack87-wIRC: thanks Apr 13 06:42:37 hekevintran - check mountall.sh - that might tell you how to get the device to perform a full wipe. takes a few hours Apr 13 06:43:20 beelzabub: what is mountall.sh? Apr 13 06:43:31 it's in /etc/init.d - it's a script Apr 13 06:43:40 rwhitby: what about this link? http://palm.cdnetworks.net/rom/pre/p131r0d11172009/sr1ntp131rod/webosdoctorp100ewwsprint.jar Apr 13 06:43:50 1.3.1 doctor Apr 13 06:44:02 hekevintran: use link above Apr 13 06:44:25 I haven't tested it Apr 13 06:44:27 i do not believe webos doctor wipes the fat partition Apr 13 06:44:40 and if it's a display problem, that doesn't help him Apr 13 06:44:40 beelzabub1: the old one does Apr 13 06:45:06 ok - i don't know how our external stuff behaves Apr 13 06:45:19 beelzabub1: he wants it wiped clean don't need display to doctor Apr 13 06:45:40 hekevintran: I dunno if that link still works worth a shot Apr 13 06:45:52 no - but if /media/internal is unchanged, then he'll have a device he can't novaterm in to, can't login to do a proper wipe & thus is kinda screwed Apr 13 06:46:19 beelzabub: what does mountall.sh do? Apr 13 06:47:31 patch Apr 13 06:47:34 how proficient are you technically? - it's just a shell script, but if you don't feel comfortable reading it, maybe ask someone else here to give you the exact instructions. Apr 13 06:47:40 whoops. Apr 13 06:47:57 i can't be responsible for your device Apr 13 06:48:20 btw - now may be a good time to mention that anything i say represents only my opinion & not that of my employer Apr 13 06:48:52 * Jack87-wIRC assumes beelzabub1 is from palm Apr 13 06:49:47 or not haha Apr 13 06:50:32 a simple whois answers that query Apr 13 06:51:23 haha it sure does Apr 13 06:52:03 beelzabub: i know how to use a unix prompt Apr 13 06:52:26 beelzabub1: so the older doctors don't wipe the media fat partition? (in my past experince they did) Apr 13 06:52:31 beelzabub: ive just dont know what mountall is or why it should be interesting to me Apr 13 06:53:22 hekevintran - i don't know what webos doctor does. i know that once you run it you will lose novacom access Apr 13 06:53:44 if that happens & you're display is actually broken, then you won't be able to sign into your device to get novaterm access Apr 13 06:53:57 the mountall.sh script contains some wipe logic Apr 13 06:54:29 if you figure out how to trigger it, you can set the flags yourself, reboot & it'll wipe your device on boot Apr 13 06:54:37 hekevintran, the good thing about scripts is that they are readable (if the author isn't a Perl programmer) Apr 13 06:55:02 hekevintran: use the webOS Doctor's initramfs, as detailed in the webos-internals wiki recovery page, and then dd the flash partitions used by LVM before LVM is started. use the vol+up method to get recovery mode, and then novaterm in after the initramfs has booted Apr 13 06:55:02 i don't want to give specific details because this is a completely at your own risk operation Apr 13 06:55:23 hekevintran: all that can be done without a display Apr 13 06:55:27 i want you to be responsible for doing this Apr 13 06:55:55 hekevintran: it's a broken device already, you just want to wipe it, right? so data loss is not an issue Apr 13 06:56:00 rwhitby - actually that's true. i always forget about booting into a ramdisk because it's always so inconvenient as opposed to not screwing up novacom access to begin with Apr 13 06:56:18 rwhitby: right, i don't care about data loss Apr 13 06:56:24 rwhitby: ive copied what i want already Apr 13 06:57:30 oo a computer Apr 13 06:59:09 sad palm did remove the old doctors from their server Apr 13 07:04:58 Jack87 i've got copies of most if not all old ones on my pc Apr 13 07:05:25 oil, cant publicly distribute :( Apr 13 07:05:34 well, i've got them Apr 13 07:05:37 :) Apr 13 07:05:40 :) Apr 13 07:05:55 oil, old webos doctors do wipe the media fat partition right? Apr 13 07:06:09 yeah, they changed it in 135, right? Apr 13 07:06:19 oil, yes! Apr 13 07:06:25 it really seems like reading mountall.sh is the simplest solution Apr 13 07:06:35 it's just 1 file you have to touch somewhere in var Apr 13 07:06:49 then you'll know the device has been wiped Apr 13 07:06:58 just make sure you do a full wipe (not just erasing var) Apr 13 07:07:02 hekevintran, has a broken screen and wants to wipe the phone and i believe thats the best solution (maybe not best but easiest requires no thinking soultion) Apr 13 07:08:18 btw - this is definitely not a recommended way of wiping the device Apr 13 07:08:36 this is strictly my own suggestion about how he might go about solving his situation Apr 13 07:08:54 i do not recommend this for anyone else Apr 13 07:11:09 the file is /var/.flags/on_mount - put "wipe" in that file Apr 13 07:11:12 in fact i don't even recommend this for hekevintran Apr 13 07:11:20 i'm just saying this might be 1 option Apr 13 07:11:46 beelzabub: there, you didn't tell them the filename, I did :-) Apr 13 07:13:13 thank you Apr 13 07:13:28 it's your fault if their device explodes :) Apr 13 07:14:08 beelzabub: most of the stuff I release can possibly do that anyway, so they're used to it. Apr 13 07:14:22 :) Apr 13 07:25:52 good night Apr 13 08:06:50 beelzabub1: n8 Apr 13 08:09:47 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/13/firefox-ported-to-pre-n900-says-psh-whatever-im-still-aweso/ Apr 13 08:09:53 i dont know why i started reading the comments on that Apr 13 08:10:11 but for some reason i want to slap christexaport Apr 13 08:24:14 oil: LOL http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/13/firefox-ported-to-pre-n900-says-psh-whatever-im-still-aweso/comments/27075371/ Apr 13 08:24:52 oil: if it makes you feel better that comment has been "ranked into oblivion" Apr 13 08:25:07 a little Apr 13 08:25:14 but he has a bunch of posts Apr 13 08:25:20 oh does he? Apr 13 08:25:29 also LOL at mtn due+munchies haha Apr 13 08:25:54 * dtzWill wonders if companies make things open on purpose as a really cheap way to get lots of development haha Apr 13 08:26:01 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/13/firefox-ported-to-pre-n900-says-psh-whatever-im-still-aweso/comments/27075623/ Apr 13 08:27:13 oil: oh wow. oh /wow/ I'm reading some of his other posts. Apr 13 08:27:19 ~smack christexaport Apr 13 08:27:20 * infobot smacks christexaport upside the head. Apr 13 08:27:25 ~botsnack Apr 13 08:27:25 aw, gee, dtzWill Apr 13 08:27:26 see? Apr 13 08:27:27 lol Apr 13 08:27:40 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/13/firefox-ported-to-pre-n900-says-psh-whatever-im-still-aweso/comments/27075371/ this one did it for me Apr 13 08:27:43 lol Apr 13 08:27:54 didn't make it past the car paragraph before i decided he had nothing useful to say Apr 13 08:28:11 lol Apr 13 08:28:17 and the fact he keeps calling it the ndk Apr 13 08:28:18 lol Apr 13 08:28:42 plam's ndk and it's app store! Apr 13 08:28:43 x.x Apr 13 08:29:25 not to mention it doesnt have any cross-platform anything Apr 13 08:29:31 just html css javascript and c/c++ Apr 13 08:29:39 thats certainly not on any other platforms Apr 13 08:29:48 xD Apr 13 08:29:58 brb Apr 13 08:30:05 http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/13/firefox-ported-to-pre-n900-says-psh-whatever-im-still-aweso/comments/27075384/ :D Apr 13 08:30:29 * dtzWill is glad his work is one of the things people go to for "why webos is better" Apr 13 08:30:38 even if it's just an example of what palm LETS us do Apr 13 08:30:40 potential of the device, etc Apr 13 08:30:41 dtzWill: orig-kernel has been renamed to palm-kernel and palm-kernel has been renamed to stock-kernel Apr 13 08:31:33 rwhitby: kk, ty for the heads up Apr 13 08:31:52 * dtzWill wants to get his hands on a chrome build and get it packaged for X Apr 13 08:32:05 suck it android, we have chrome before google mobile OS does :P Apr 13 08:33:21 ....anyway Apr 13 08:37:45 lol Apr 13 08:38:01 * oil thought posting it here would make someone put him in his place :) Apr 13 08:38:43 oil: idk if I did a good job, but you'll certainly find others who wanna smack him :) Apr 13 08:39:12 "Though not a developer, I do participate in parts of the development process" Apr 13 08:39:46 im not a mechanic, but have been involved in fixing cars (handing wrenches, etc) by no means would i talk with authority about fixing cars Apr 13 08:39:47 lol Apr 13 08:40:45 side note: the kin two looks a lot like a pre Apr 13 08:40:46 lol Apr 13 08:41:51 oil: I think you should Apr 13 08:42:01 oil: ideally frequent mechanic shops and tell them what's up Apr 13 08:42:08 lol Apr 13 08:44:58 http://www.engadget.com/photos/microsoft-kin-one-and-kin-two-press-shots-0/#2886485 looks like a weird gadget from a bad scifi movie Apr 13 08:45:07 I kinda wanna get one and use it to video conference with a spaceship Apr 13 08:45:31 lol Apr 13 08:45:32 yeah Apr 13 08:45:34 not that one though Apr 13 08:45:35 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/04/kinpicsapr1203-1271095552.jpg Apr 13 08:45:42 looks like the pre Apr 13 08:45:44 "let me get your phonenumber, wait I can only see on digit at a time" Apr 13 08:45:44 wtf bold? Apr 13 08:45:52 ah yeah it does Apr 13 10:01:42 why are the morons the loudest Apr 13 10:22:57 Cause volume is the only thing tool they have to make a point with. Apr 13 11:26:19 holy crap Apr 13 11:29:29 does anyone know if Palm has ported webkit directly to directfb or if they are using a layer in between, like sdl or cairo? Apr 13 11:41:52 anarchos: Palm has a proprietary layer called Pirahna Apr 13 11:42:28 webkit, SDL and Luna are all on top of that, and Pirahna speaks directly to the display driver Apr 13 11:45:31 is it using directfb? Apr 13 11:45:57 like... Apr 13 11:46:21 nm apparently i can't read ;) Apr 13 13:11:54 Hello Apr 13 13:12:42 Anyone ever throw the Pre into USB mode and nothing shows up in My computer and Device mamanger has a ? mark on Pre? I have already reloaded the novacom Apr 13 13:15:14 Major: try plugging your Pre into a different USB port Apr 13 13:16:23 Major_: If you plug the pre back into the same port Windoze will say "oh yes, I've seen that before ...", but if you plug it into a different physical port Windows thinks it is a brand new device and will run the "detect what this thing is" logic Apr 13 13:17:00 nt4cats. I use the same USB port everytime. Apr 13 13:17:33 nt4cats attempting different port Apr 13 13:18:36 Major_: I'm not guaranteeing that a different port will fix your issue -- just letting you know about how to trick Windows into starting device detection from scratch versus having it remember the last decision it made Apr 13 13:19:19 nt4cats Yeah i should have attempted this first as I know the trick just forgot basic TS Apr 13 13:19:34 Major_: I rarely use USB mode (and never use Windows), so I can't say I've experienced this problem myself Apr 13 13:20:03 I'm at work so I have to deal with windows Apr 13 13:26:05 nt4cats Yeah that didn't do anything Apr 13 13:44:04 I just feel I need to say this... The speed of Preware Alpha is spectacular! Great jobs guys! Apr 13 13:45:10 does the preware alpha fixes the rescan bug? that kills phone app and mail app? Apr 13 13:45:30 en0x: we just call the palm rescan service Apr 13 13:47:07 so tell my if i install something through palm catalog it doesnt kill any apps but when i install something through preware it does Apr 13 13:47:12 Is there any light yet as to when the random luna reboots will be fixed? Apr 13 13:47:28 en0x: your guess is as good as mine Apr 13 13:47:31 TheInvsbleManpre: r u on 1.4.1? Apr 13 13:47:55 rwhitby: interesting :) Apr 13 13:47:56 En0x I just installed wircd with preware alpha and it did close my messaging app. Apr 13 13:48:10 And yes I am on 1.4.1.1 Apr 13 13:48:21 since 1.4.1.1 i never had luna reboot Apr 13 13:48:38 i think my pre is special ;d Apr 13 13:49:02 Hmm. In 1.4 I was having them but I ran webosRU and it fixed it... Ever since I had my Pre replaced the issue has returned Apr 13 13:49:33 i have 4-5 times luna reboots on 1.4.0 Apr 13 13:49:42 s/have/had/ Apr 13 13:49:42 en0x meant: i had 4-5 times luna reboots on 1.4.0 Apr 13 13:49:49 a day Apr 13 13:50:04 Though I have to get it replaced again anyways... Bluetooth doesn't work on this refurb Apr 13 13:50:23 Yea I get luna reboots quite often even on 1.4.1.1 Apr 13 13:50:40 sucks 2 b u Apr 13 13:51:41 Lol why thank you. Apr 13 13:51:58 hehe Apr 13 13:52:29 Hopefully after getting this Pre replaced again it will solve my issues. Would I be wrong in requesting a brand new Pre rather than a refurb considering the trouble I have had with refurbs? Apr 13 13:53:07 my pre got replaced with a refurb straight from palm and it's even better than the original one that I had Apr 13 13:53:19 except one thing... "space" on the keyboard doesn't click ;( Apr 13 13:54:04 Yea this one is better build quality by far... But it won't route the audio to my Bluetooth headset apparently it's a hardware issue Apr 13 13:54:07 * rwhitby bbt - night all Apr 13 13:54:14 bye rwhitby Apr 13 13:54:21 TheInvsbleManpre: looks like it... Apr 13 13:55:13 It's odd... It's pairs just fine and all the controls on the headset control the Pre with no problem but it just won't send the audio to my Jawbone... I have 2 of them and hae tried both. Neither work Apr 13 13:55:41 I just have to get around to calling Asurion. Apr 13 13:55:53 i cancelled asurion :p Apr 13 13:56:00 Why is that? Apr 13 13:56:28 coz i wont pay those fuckers 7 bucks a month and they are making a big deal about exchanging a broken phone... like usb crack or so Apr 13 13:56:33 they wanted my 100 bucks deductible Apr 13 13:56:45 so i said screw u and i'm cancelling my insurance Apr 13 13:57:50 I see. This is the first time I have ever had to pay my deductible because it was actually my fault this time. But before that I had I think 13 Moguls replaced and I think this is my 6th or 7th Pre they were all replaced free because of TEP Apr 13 13:58:11 i would rather go through palm with exchange Apr 13 13:58:14 rwhitby: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Optware written ... I'm thinking of adding a pointer to it to the other/obsolete Optware pages (http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Next_steps, http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Setting_up_optware_feed) Apr 13 13:58:17 like I did before Apr 13 13:58:43 I see. Yea I just like knowing I'm protected. Apr 13 13:59:04 Is Python programming language package available for the 1.4.0? I can't find it. Apr 13 13:59:14 mischko: it is in optware Apr 13 13:59:50 and optware is not in preware? Can I add a channel or ? Apr 13 13:59:55 mischko: There are instructions for setting up Optware here: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Optware Apr 13 14:00:03 k Apr 13 14:00:11 mischko: there is an Optware feed in Preware -- that'll get you bootstrapped Apr 13 14:00:54 mischko: ... but Python is not itself installable via Preware. You'll need to follow the instructions for installing a "raw" nslu2-linux.org Optware package found at the link I gave you. Apr 13 14:01:11 Ok. Thanks. Apr 13 14:01:24 Are there any benefits to installing the optware stuff if all I do is patch and install apps via Preware, and occasionally terminal stuff such as OCing Apr 13 14:02:52 yay random luna reboot Apr 13 14:03:12 mischko: Optware has python24, python25, python26 and python3. There are MANY pre-packaged python modules for py24, py25, and py26, too. Apr 13 14:03:38 nt4cats, how do I get a list of packages available? Apr 13 14:04:07 you have do do ipkg-opt update first -- this fetches the package list Apr 13 14:04:16 did that Apr 13 14:04:19 ... then "ipkg-opt list" Apr 13 14:04:25 (no quotes) Apr 13 14:04:54 Ok. In Terminal some shortcuts refer to "Gesture-1" what do they mean by "Gesture" there? Apr 13 14:05:17 touching the gesture area (next to the throbbing bulb under the screen) Apr 13 14:05:40 and then the number? Apr 13 14:05:52 or that many touches? Apr 13 14:06:01 the number 1 on your keyboard (same key as 'E') Apr 13 14:06:38 you don't have to hit Orange-E to get a '1' in this case .. just Gesture-E Apr 13 14:06:52 what's "Orange" here? Apr 13 14:07:28 the orange key (under 'A') that toggles alternate keys Apr 13 14:08:30 It's not Orange on my phone. Apr 13 14:09:03 mischko: what country/carrier are you? Apr 13 14:09:10 usa vzw Apr 13 14:09:23 what color is it on a VZ Pre Plus? Apr 13 14:09:43 black Apr 13 14:09:51 terminal program just reset it _again_. Apr 13 14:10:43 just got it yesterday Apr 13 14:10:45 mischko: My personal opinion is that Terminal is okay to use in a pinch, but if you can ssh or novaterm in the experience is much better Apr 13 14:10:58 I use ssh most of the time. Apr 13 14:11:14 novaterm requires usb be plugged in? Apr 13 14:11:25 ... and dev mode? Apr 13 14:11:34 mischko: as far as I know, yes, novaterm works only over USB (and needs Dev Mode, too) Apr 13 14:11:47 that's too much hassle unless it does some useful magic. Apr 13 14:12:23 I use novaterm to install ssh, then ssh afterwards Apr 13 14:12:44 I used preware to install ssh, Terminal to generate the keys and then ssh after. Apr 13 14:13:09 putty and winscp play well with it so we're all good. Apr 13 14:13:33 is there a web list of packages available in optware? Apr 13 14:13:54 I looked yesterday but didn't find one that was easy to use Apr 13 14:14:05 let me make a quick pastebin for you to help you this morning ... Apr 13 14:14:25 no need. Apr 13 14:14:29 I'll get it from the machine. Apr 13 14:14:31 Thanks. Apr 13 14:14:50 Seems like it would be a "good thing". Apr 13 14:15:10 http://webos.pastebin.com/9h6uGFS2 Apr 13 14:15:37 Thanks. That didn't take long. Apr 13 14:15:43 .. and now that I've already made that I didn't update today, so that list is a whole day old Apr 13 14:17:14 cool. That'll work. Apr 13 14:24:05 mischko: ... and to demonstrate my AMAZING Photoshop skills ... http://imgur.com/GKKmy Apr 13 14:24:18 mischko: ... did I mention that my Photoshop skills are AMAZING? Apr 13 14:24:26 (and I didn't even use Photoshop, I used the GIMP) Apr 13 14:24:44 :D Apr 13 14:25:36 nt4cats, that's too funny. My GIMP skills are pretty exciting too. Apr 13 14:28:39 Makes me feel geeky: http://webos.pastebin.com/EdQvfKGe Apr 13 14:33:13 you can become a doctor of computer science? that doesn't sound right. Apr 13 14:34:08 nt4cats: nice, you get that packaged as a dep in preware yet? :D Apr 13 14:34:43 zsoc_wirc: its true Apr 13 14:34:55 i know someone who just got his phd from stanford in comp sci Apr 13 14:36:03 and he is definitely one of the smarter people i know :P Apr 13 14:38:50 zsoc_wirc: well, if we were going to include Python in Preware I'd want to recompile it from source to 'fix' some of its dependencies Apr 13 14:39:09 zsoc_wirc: e.g. you have to install optware's sqlite in order to install their Python Apr 13 14:40:54 ... and then someone would have to port a python UI library over (maybe PyQT) Apr 13 14:44:17 zsoc_wirc: I'd be interested in that work, but I don't think I can dedicate the amount of time that'd take to do Apr 13 14:45:04 nt4cats: it's really not complicated. ub9.10 vbox, build the toolchain for the widk, create makefile for deps and python, fix arm errors, voila Apr 13 14:45:40 I'm using Python for CherryPy (web server) and maybe sqlite or PostgreSQL. Apr 13 14:45:42 zsoc_wirc: is that a ub9.10 server running INSIDE vbox, or a ub9.10 server hosting vbox? Apr 13 14:45:45 Won't need a GUI library. Apr 13 14:46:02 nt4cats: I wouldn't mind doing it actually. sounds like a fun project. besides, then I can port all the opensource pygame stuff and release it to app cat and make a fortune ;) Apr 13 14:46:24 nt4cats: inside the vbox, as a guest machine, er.. server edition. no gui Apr 13 14:46:51 zsoc_wirc: inside vbox, I can do. I use a different distro (Fedora) Apr 13 14:47:18 nt4cats: yeah that's fine, that's why I suggested vbox. plus ub9.10 server installs in about 5 minutes :D Apr 13 14:48:20 crap. I still need to restructure the widk and change the last step of instructions on the wiki. I should do that tonight. Apr 13 14:48:31 my app is so close to alpha release tho :/ Apr 13 14:48:36 I should skip a night of sleep. Apr 13 14:49:52 12 days late -- I realized that webos-internals.org should have sent out an announcement on 1-April indicating either A) a shift to Andriod development -or- B) a new focus on meeting the needs of the under-served "adult" market on webOS Apr 13 14:50:03 s/realized/realized yesterday/ Apr 13 14:50:03 nt4cats meant: 12 days late -- I realized yesterday that webos-internals.org should have sent out an announcement on 1-April indicating either A) a shift to Andriod development -or- B) a new focus on meeting the needs of the under-served "adult" market on webOS Apr 13 14:50:26 (okay, "B" was my first idea) Apr 13 14:50:34 nt4cats: I find april fools to be a bit childish Apr 13 14:50:48 zsoc_wirc: I am occasionally/frequently childish Apr 13 14:51:00 xD Apr 13 14:51:11 ok, maybe I just find pranksters obnoxious, lol Apr 13 14:51:28 april fools can quickly become over-done, but one joke, have a chuckle, then move on with your day is fine with me Apr 13 14:51:56 nt4cats: I think my problem is it's general pooe execution Apr 13 14:52:10 Palm bougt? Apr 13 14:52:17 * nt4cats nods. Poo execution is problematic Apr 13 14:52:28 osi80z: why do you ask? Apr 13 14:52:44 nope Apr 13 14:53:19 wtf old tweet Apr 13 14:53:19 palm won't be bough Apr 13 14:53:20 t Apr 13 14:53:32 new tweet, old precentral artical Apr 13 14:53:36 blaah Apr 13 14:54:15 osi80z: I don't see any 'breaking sale news' out there ... and while final judgment would have to be held until a hypothetical sale is completed (if it ever were to be completed) ... I've had Palm devices with a USRobotics logo on them, with a 3Com logo on them, and they still worked, well like Palm devices. Apr 13 14:55:26 ois80z: .. so I'd say that unless you have significant holdings in either Palm or this may-or-may-not-ever-happen buyer, it probably is not anything to get all worked up about. Apr 13 15:26:11 anyone no if you can make radiotime or pandora louder ? Apr 13 15:27:16 I heard there's a volume button on the side of the device ;) Apr 13 15:27:26 haha Apr 13 15:27:26 awww Apr 13 15:27:33 morning all Apr 13 15:27:35 besides that Apr 13 15:27:39 there are hacks in the /etc/audio path Apr 13 15:27:44 but... that's global Apr 13 15:28:09 not sure if you wanna increase the dB count Apr 13 15:28:10 that will be for all than correct ? Apr 13 15:28:13 yep Apr 13 15:28:30 it's a bit "involved" Apr 13 15:28:34 ...too. Apr 13 15:28:39 just that it's hard to hear some songs with the headphones Apr 13 15:28:44 ie. hackery Apr 13 15:29:00 it might be your headphones, i use bose qc-3's and it's great Apr 13 15:29:14 I was going to say, not to be dumb, but are they fully in? Apr 13 15:29:27 sometimes my headphones wont be 100% pushed into the jack causing low volume Apr 13 15:30:04 yea all the way in Apr 13 15:30:50 DrFunk: there's something I've been meaning to try Apr 13 15:30:54 DrFunk: that's what she said Apr 13 15:30:58 does anyone know if the preware alpha uses any sdl to process all the data? for accelleration? Apr 13 15:31:13 en0x: no, just a lightning fast C service Apr 13 15:31:17 nt4cats: nice Apr 13 15:31:22 zsoc_wirc: kk Apr 13 15:31:44 * nt4cats avoided the temptation to tell DrFunk about the volume buttons, couldn't stay away from that one Apr 13 15:32:03 DrFunk: in theory you can use pactl to set the volume on the mediaserver source OVER 100%, but I'm not sure if it's possible with the hardware Apr 13 15:32:13 meep Apr 13 15:32:19 MEEP MEEP Apr 13 15:32:30 "your estimated wait time is 7 minutes" Apr 13 15:32:36 hmmm Apr 13 15:32:43 being on hold is so fun. Apr 13 15:32:53 i hate being on hold Apr 13 15:32:54 :S Apr 13 15:32:57 darn brb Apr 13 15:33:10 i feel like running full speed towards a wall Apr 13 15:34:04 it might be better if they made the hold music less inane Apr 13 15:34:08 sprint suxorz Apr 13 15:34:10 Whoops. The site is down Apr 13 15:34:18 it's been down since saturday Apr 13 15:34:19 :S Apr 13 15:34:38 sprint.com/mysprint Apr 13 15:35:09 what are you calling them for? Apr 13 15:37:17 i'm not calling anybody zsoc_wirc Apr 13 15:38:03 o\n Apr 13 16:12:39 hi folks Apr 13 16:13:20 I have a problem with removing the "Enable LED notifications" app Apr 13 16:13:45 Is it possible to remove it manually? Apr 13 16:22:27 alyazir: it's a patch not an app, and it's possible yes Apr 13 16:22:59 yes, of course - do you know how or where to find how it's done? Apr 13 16:23:37 alyazir: the most straight forward way is probably using wosq Apr 13 16:26:04 quick install? I get an error there too Apr 13 16:26:50 can you enumerate the error please Apr 13 16:27:48 ERROR: An error occured while attempting to run /tmp/ipkgScript.sh Apr 13 16:28:23 patching file usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.screenlock/app/controllers/securityconfig-assistant.js Apr 13 16:28:40 Hunk #1 succeeded [...] Apr 13 16:28:48 Hunk #2 FAILED at 244. Apr 13 16:29:24 is there any more? Apr 13 16:29:27 [...] saving rejects to file [same path as above]securityconfig-assistant.js.rej Apr 13 16:29:34 generally in red there is something more specific Apr 13 16:29:48 wait a sec Apr 13 16:29:51 alyazir, post the entire exchange to a pastebin and link it here. Apr 13 16:29:58 right Apr 13 16:36:34 here you go: http://pastebin.com/2Le38gyb Apr 13 16:38:49 zsoc_wirc: *poke* Apr 13 16:39:31 bbl Apr 13 16:41:09 well, seems like repeated trial solved it Apr 13 16:42:35 thank you anyway Apr 13 16:44:11 sry, working, good to hear tho Apr 13 17:04:17 morning guys Apr 13 17:05:55 morning :) Apr 13 17:06:52 So...my pre has started double typing letters since 1.4.1 Apr 13 17:07:47 I haven't paid attention to this issue, but I thought it was a hardware thing with the pre plus? Apr 13 17:10:24 apprently not, though Apr 13 17:11:01 since I've never had it before and this is a sprint pre Apr 13 17:12:05 my sprint pre doesn't have that problem Apr 13 17:12:15 maybe a patch you installed? Apr 13 17:15:01 I suppose that's possible, although I haven't installed any new patches in weeks. Apr 13 17:16:37 it could be anything :( Apr 13 17:16:57 dropped it, defective part, patches :( Apr 13 17:17:26 I haven't heard of it until now, and we have 3 sprint pres in the office Apr 13 17:20:26 well, it has been a fairly common issue for the Pre Plus, from what I read on the forums. Apr 13 17:21:53 i would treat it as a hardware issue\n Apr 13 17:22:21 try cleaning the keyboard\n Apr 13 17:23:23 everyone is on wirc :) Apr 13 17:23:57 ftw? Apr 13 17:24:54 I have an apple Apr 13 17:26:30 so has anyone attempted to use https://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1671&Itemid=279 yet? Apr 13 17:35:29 heyho Apr 13 17:35:43 hi Apr 13 17:35:48 oilsworkn: I would interpret the resounding silence in response to your question as "no, not yet" Apr 13 17:36:09 yeah, thats what i got from it :) Apr 13 17:36:36 * oilsworkn was thinking about playing with it just to say he has Apr 13 17:36:46 oilsworkn: it's not available atm Apr 13 17:36:55 wha Apr 13 17:36:58 you'd have to apply for a prerelease version iirc Apr 13 17:37:08 that documentation is recently added Apr 13 17:37:49 yes it is Apr 13 17:38:14 afaict it's just a way to let mojo handle things in the background to save battery Apr 13 17:38:26 akin to what apple is doing with their 'multitasking' Apr 13 17:39:04 zsoc_wirc: right Apr 13 17:39:06 oilsworkn: I'd be more interested if anyone's looked into replacing our current service message 'speak' with pdk message speak Apr 13 17:39:24 zsoc_wirc - can you clarify? Apr 13 17:39:30 if there's any advantage or if it's extensible enough to even function Apr 13 17:40:07 beelzabub1: right now, our homebrew C services are using the LS headers to send json / run methods over luna:// Apr 13 17:40:35 i c - pdk I believe wraps all that for you Apr 13 17:41:12 you no longer do bus calls/json directly but instead go through the PDK layer Apr 13 17:41:54 beelzabub1: right, what I'm saying is I'm curious if it restricts our current methods or if we can start porting it over to support future app-cat inclusion Apr 13 17:41:58 like with wIRC Apr 13 17:42:12 I'm curious about the limitations I suppose Apr 13 17:42:24 i c - would be interesting. i don't know the exact limitations - would be interested to find out Apr 13 17:42:38 well, limitation 1 is that you're making a service and not a plugin :) Apr 13 17:42:42 although, we can probably submit using our current methods, considering I believe they are statically compiled with the headers Apr 13 17:42:51 and palm isn't going to be letting custom services into the catalog afaik Apr 13 17:42:55 oh, right, crap. Apr 13 17:42:56 ha Apr 13 17:43:04 * nt4cats wonders why you kids today think it saves time to type (things like) "i c" instead of "I see" Apr 13 17:43:08 on an irrelevant note, you should see the PDK parse JSON messages 10 times faster (not that that's usually a bottleneck in any application) Apr 13 17:43:22 * nt4cats says that back in my day if you wanted to type you used a typewriter Apr 13 17:43:22 it was on preware Apr 13 17:43:23 lol Apr 13 17:43:29 it uses my JSON library :) Apr 13 17:43:37 nt4cats: that reminds me of a y2k comic Apr 13 17:43:49 well, we can just compile the 'plugin'.. I mean, the only limitation is upstart Apr 13 17:44:00 it was a typewriter shop with a sign out front saying "get your y2k complient gear here" Apr 13 17:44:21 beelzabub1: what do we lose from converting a service to a plugin besides the ability to run separate from the application? I can't imagine much Apr 13 17:44:33 no clue - i'm not on that side of the world Apr 13 17:44:46 zsoc_wirc: i think thats the ONLY thing Apr 13 17:44:50 is that its not running in the background Apr 13 17:44:52 but per-app Apr 13 17:44:57 your json library? not mjson? Apr 13 17:44:57 oilsworkn: there is an apparently-thriving business less than 2 blocks from me in downtown Philadelphia that is a typewriter shop and a reseller of Apple hardware. I walked in and they really are selling typewriters in the back of the store. Apr 13 17:45:06 oilsworkn: right, and upstarting it with luna Apr 13 17:45:13 if it's a service-type program, i'd recommend keeping it as a service Apr 13 17:45:23 i believe the requests/subscriptions etc are all basically the same Apr 13 17:45:23 don't think you'd gain anything with the PDK Apr 13 17:45:39 what you gain with the pdk Apr 13 17:45:43 beelzabub1: well we'd gain the ability to submit for the app catalog Apr 13 17:45:45 is teh ability to have it in the catalog Apr 13 17:45:47 lol Apr 13 17:45:51 and to do visual elements Apr 13 17:45:55 that's a lot of donations Apr 13 17:45:56 outside of html/css Apr 13 17:46:07 zsco_wirc - right, not mjson. if you look there's a libpbnjson library Apr 13 17:46:07 oilsworkn: well we can do that anyway :p Apr 13 17:46:08 donations? Apr 13 17:46:20 beelzabub1: is there? Apr 13 17:46:28 should be - shipped with 1.4 Apr 13 17:46:35 at least a beta version Apr 13 17:46:58 beelzabub1: is that the one they reverted in 1.4.1? lol Apr 13 17:47:07 what do you mean? Apr 13 17:47:20 AFAIK pbnjson is unchanged in 1.4 or 1.4.1 Apr 13 17:47:42 beelzabub1: 1.4.1 sdk release notes claim a reverting back to the 1.3.5 parser Apr 13 17:48:00 beelzabub1: and pbnjson seems to be closed source, because it's not on the site Apr 13 17:48:00 * oilsworkn remembers reading something like that Apr 13 17:48:02 i suspect that may be the webkit one Apr 13 17:48:09 beelzabub1: ah, that's likely Apr 13 17:48:11 yeah Apr 13 17:48:17 zsoc_wirc - yup closed source. trying to get it opensourced Apr 13 17:48:27 zsoc_wirc - check /usr/lib Apr 13 17:48:32 beelzabub1: please :) that and camd and mediaserver lol Apr 13 17:48:44 beelzabub1: oh, good. I'll strings/binutils it to death :p Apr 13 17:48:46 there's at least 1 component that links against it Apr 13 17:48:49 :) Apr 13 17:49:20 beelzabub1: good to have you, btw. Apr 13 17:49:30 thanks Apr 13 17:50:02 I don't suppose you belonged to the college accapella group? Apr 13 17:50:19 i can't sing so i i think not Apr 13 17:50:20 s/accapella/a cappella/ Apr 13 17:50:21 zsoc_wirc meant: I don't suppose you belonged to the college a cappella group? Apr 13 17:51:01 ah, tufts university has an all male a cappella group alled the Beezlebubs. Apr 13 17:51:14 lol - no Apr 13 17:51:30 i've had my handle for a long time Apr 13 17:51:38 gotcha Apr 13 17:51:48 back when they used to call them 'handle's ;) Apr 13 17:52:01 lol Apr 13 17:52:08 what are they called now? i'm not that old but i'm prone to use old-folk lingo since i work with geist :P Apr 13 17:52:12 I think I'm going to for infobot into a mudlib/parser. Apr 13 17:52:29 generally nicks :) at least on irc Apr 13 17:52:35 * oilsworkn has gone by oil on the internets as long as he can remember Apr 13 17:52:35 gotcha Apr 13 17:52:39 s/for/fork/ Apr 13 17:53:04 I remember on old AOL you had a 'handle' Apr 13 17:53:13 lol aol Apr 13 17:53:27 aohell was the best 'hacking' program ever Apr 13 17:53:52 * oilsworkn remembers screwing with aol Apr 13 17:54:16 i never had aol Apr 13 17:54:26 i did, unfortunately Apr 13 17:54:27 i always got those free hours but i couldn't convince my mom it wasn't a scam Apr 13 17:54:36 guess she was right Apr 13 17:54:36 mostly because its what my parents paid for and i had no income Apr 13 17:54:37 lol Apr 13 17:54:51 I remember begging my dad for a second phone line Apr 13 17:55:02 but as soon as i got a job, i brought in cable for myself Apr 13 18:00:46 zsoc: how taxing on battery life is wirc? Apr 13 18:02:39 yeah zsoc, how is it? Apr 13 18:04:59 man flash is totally bringing down firefox & chrome on my system Apr 13 18:05:03 wth Apr 13 18:05:42 thats flashs job Apr 13 18:06:37 i guess - but i haven't had problems for the past few months Apr 13 18:07:35 have they gotten fullscreen video to run smoothly on anything less than a supercomputer yet? Apr 13 18:07:38 also someone broke chromium & it no longer works on my wiki Apr 13 18:07:43 I blame the government Apr 13 18:08:22 hey - if you don't write inefficient code the first time, how are you supposed to tout the improvements in new releases? Apr 13 18:08:30 heh Apr 13 18:08:50 thats a great way to look at it Apr 13 18:08:55 * oilsworkn stops writing such awesome code :) Apr 13 18:09:14 wouldn't that only be brilliant if you were charging for the new releases? Apr 13 18:09:19 Double points if you make it confusing for job security Apr 13 18:09:39 i like to put comments like "haha, good luck figuring this out" Apr 13 18:09:54 I have no idea about batt life. I have touchstones everywhere Apr 13 18:09:55 kinda why i'm afraid of open-sourcing pbnjson Apr 13 18:10:04 the API is clean & the performance is great Apr 13 18:10:14 beelzabub1: how is flash on your phone tho? Apr 13 18:10:16 internally, maitenance is kinda a pain Apr 13 18:10:16 * zsoc_wirc ducks Apr 13 18:10:25 HA Apr 13 18:10:27 no comment Apr 13 18:10:37 "i can neither confirm nor deny" Apr 13 18:11:08 well Apr 13 18:11:15 i'm pretty sure that we announced we'll have flash Apr 13 18:11:17 not like the performance would be better then on a multi-core desktop Apr 13 18:11:27 i don't want to talk about specifics on it at all Apr 13 18:11:38 but we want to Apr 13 18:11:41 beelzabub1: yeah we're good at guessing, we pretty much know when it's coming lol Apr 13 18:11:42 doesn't that matter? Apr 13 18:11:45 go for it - i just won't partake Apr 13 18:11:52 well thats no fun Apr 13 18:11:55 i don't even know so you probably have better info than me Apr 13 18:12:03 Yes, but this no flash available for my phone RIGHT NOW is hampering my ability to watch the A Team on hulu Apr 13 18:12:04 nice cover Apr 13 18:12:09 hehe nah just jokin around, no more talk :) Apr 13 18:12:17 no - i honestly don't know Apr 13 18:12:23 halfhalo_class: hulu won't work anyway Apr 13 18:12:29 i could go find out maybe if i was inclined, but i don't care so much Apr 13 18:12:31 see, now nobody is going to believe you :) Apr 13 18:12:44 it'll happen when it does & the less i know the less i can leak Apr 13 18:12:52 lol Apr 13 18:12:56 You can leak to us Apr 13 18:12:59 we won't tell Apr 13 18:13:12 not like this channel is publicly logged or anything... Apr 13 18:13:13 just type into this little box here -> [*] Apr 13 18:13:15 lol Apr 13 18:13:20 halfhalo_class: that is rather inappropriate, even as a joke Apr 13 18:13:20 lol Apr 13 18:13:56 halfhalo_class: shame on you. apologize to beel Apr 13 18:14:04 lol Apr 13 18:15:35 Do we have any method of making internal announcements? twitter seems kinda silly for something internal Apr 13 18:15:54 internal to what? Apr 13 18:16:12 changing the widk structure will affect how dep syntax needs to be molded Apr 13 18:16:13 -internals? Apr 13 18:16:16 to webos-internals Apr 13 18:16:20 ah Apr 13 18:16:26 i think you just made the announcement Apr 13 18:16:28 Add it to the login message? Apr 13 18:16:30 yeah, I guess I can just shout in here on a timer lol Apr 13 18:16:38 mailing list? Apr 13 18:16:49 xD Apr 13 18:16:52 if we have one, no one reads it lol Apr 13 18:16:54 xD Apr 13 18:17:15 * oilsworkn isn't signed up for it Apr 13 18:17:19 * oilsworkn is going to do so now! Apr 13 18:17:23 do we allow sending colors to the channel? Apr 13 18:17:31 * halfhalo_class wants to feel included Apr 13 18:17:32 lol, its filled with spam Apr 13 18:17:37 Apr 13 18:17:40 Apr 13 18:17:42 Apr 13 18:17:44 Apr 13 18:17:47 http://groups.google.com/group/webos-internals Apr 13 18:17:47 Yes, colors work Apr 13 18:17:54 Apr 13 18:18:04 "My Little Film" by Sexy Cat Apr 13 18:18:07 that sounds relevant Apr 13 18:18:17 oh, sorry that was me Apr 13 18:18:20 so does "No panties subway ride" Apr 13 18:18:41 That is ENTIRELY relevant to programming! Apr 13 18:18:42 * nt4cats is responsible for the "no panties" one, I thought it was topical Apr 13 18:18:55 and http://groups.google.com/group/webos-internals-announce Apr 13 18:19:02 nothing since aug09 Apr 13 18:19:09 well, i guess it is current Apr 13 18:19:13 considering preware is still in beta Apr 13 18:19:14 lol Apr 13 18:19:20 nt4cats: I told you to stop talking about your wife like that Apr 13 18:19:35 howdy Apr 13 18:19:45 It is funny to see attempted on-topic posts in that group Apr 13 18:19:47 jacques: hello conference goer Apr 13 18:19:51 1. No panties subway ride Apr 13 18:19:52 :-) Apr 13 18:19:59 2. Bang bus tourists Apr 13 18:20:08 3. Terminal application crashing on back-gesture Apr 13 18:20:16 HAHAHAHAHAHAA Apr 13 18:20:18 4. NAKED in her new clip Apr 13 18:20:22 TERMINAL Apr 13 18:20:30 excellent Apr 13 18:20:47 this might be a little too nsfw for bub, lol Apr 13 18:21:09 google groups is worthless if you don't require moderation these days Apr 13 18:21:14 * oilsworkn considers joining group only for spam Apr 13 18:21:28 WAY ahead of you oilsworkn Apr 13 18:21:33 haha Apr 13 18:21:39 * nt4cats forwards the contents of his spam folder to oilsworkn@oilswork.com Apr 13 18:22:04 I joined late and only saw 3 and 4 Apr 13 18:22:17 nt4cats: i dont know who will get that, but he will probably enjoy it Apr 13 18:22:17 * jacques is confused. Apr 13 18:22:23 http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt Apr 13 18:22:31 Ka6sox-mobile: we're talking about how awesome the mailing list is Apr 13 18:22:34 http://groups.google.com/group/webos-internals Apr 13 18:22:36 Ka6sox-mobile: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt Apr 13 18:22:55 but definately seems nsfw Apr 13 18:23:00 jacques: there is a google group for webos-internals Apr 13 18:23:01 lol Apr 13 18:23:04 there is 2 Apr 13 18:23:20 jacques: I was pointing out how it is funny that there are attempted on-topic posts in the midst of the rest Apr 13 18:23:41 jacques: 1. 2. 3. Problem with terminal application 4. .... Apr 13 18:23:42 nt4cats, ah :-) Apr 13 18:23:55 yeah, rather low s/n ratio Apr 13 18:24:01 nt4cats. Browsing on a phone isn't fun Apr 13 18:24:24 Ka6sox-mobile: I assume you're confused by the thing I just explained to jacques Apr 13 18:24:53 Ka6sox-mobile: ... but if not tell me what confuses you and we'll explain it Apr 13 18:25:14 Ka6sox-mobile, even on my 1024x768 tablet it's painful sometimes Apr 13 18:25:36 and phone screens are so small :-\ Apr 13 18:25:48 but a big screen makes a big phone Apr 13 18:26:42 * nt4cats thinks one will need to use two hands to lift an EVO up to one's ear Apr 13 18:26:49 (or get a friend to help) Apr 13 18:27:16 it doesn't come with a robotic arm? Apr 13 18:27:33 duh. it has anti-gravity Apr 13 18:27:43 no, those are accessories Apr 13 18:28:03 Wow...the "Kin"s are hideous. Apr 13 18:29:26 what are you talking about Apr 13 18:29:29 idontwan2know, like any hardware MS designs? Apr 13 18:29:33 kin two looks EXACTLY like the pre Apr 13 18:29:40 nt4cats: I was amused by the 'subway', 'bus', 'terminal' progression Apr 13 18:29:46 besides being a landscape slider Apr 13 18:30:20 I see very little similarity. Apr 13 18:30:30 zsoc_wirc: I wish I could say that was intentional Apr 13 18:30:39 Is the kin two WP7? Apr 13 18:30:58 I want a WP7 phone and an android phone, for development purposes. Apr 13 18:31:07 kin is not wp7 Apr 13 18:31:22 * zsoc_wirc still mistakenly thinks he's starting an embedded/mobile software company Apr 13 18:31:34 oilsworkn: well then what the heck? android+blur? Apr 13 18:31:59 I think my wife would be perfectly happy with a phone that 1) made/received calls 2) sent/received TXT messages 3) let her spend 16-20 hours a day on Facebook Apr 13 18:31:59 the kin is based off the zune's software right now Apr 13 18:32:05 idontwan2know: you're saying you see very little similarity between this Apr 13 18:32:06 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/04/kinpicsapr1203-1271095552.jpg Apr 13 18:32:07 and a pre? Apr 13 18:32:15 and it takes social networking to a WHOLE nother level Apr 13 18:32:29 nt4cats: do we have the same wife? Apr 13 18:32:47 awkward Apr 13 18:32:48 nt4cats: sometimes I think we're all married to the same woman Apr 13 18:32:52 Well, that's the first time I've seen it from that angle. Apr 13 18:33:08 lol Apr 13 18:33:08 d/nt4cats/zsoc_wirc/ Apr 13 18:33:09 me too Apr 13 18:33:17 the other angles are not so nice IMHO Apr 13 18:33:25 (tries again) Apr 13 18:33:33 zsoc_wirc: sometimes I think we're all married to the same woman Apr 13 18:34:14 * oilsworkn didn't even notice your mess up the first time you typed it out Apr 13 18:34:20 must... not.... respond... wittinly.... Apr 13 18:34:28 Regardless..it still looks horrible when opened, and the Kin One has zero redeeming qualities from an aesthetic perspective. Apr 13 18:34:46 who was it that said they wanted to call the ufo with the kinone? Apr 13 18:34:49 lol Apr 13 18:36:02 I think making a facebook device that happens to also make phone calls and send/receive texts is a good idea...but style matters to that audience. Apr 13 18:36:15 I don't understand. what OS does the kin have? Apr 13 18:36:28 Facebook OS? Apr 13 18:36:32 its a custom one built off of the zune's os Apr 13 18:36:32 zsoc_wirc: it doesn't matter Apr 13 18:36:33 Zune OS Apr 13 18:36:36 its a dumbphone Apr 13 18:36:40 oh Apr 13 18:36:44 well wtf Apr 13 18:36:46 you cant develop for it Apr 13 18:36:47 No app infrastructure, so it doesn't matter. Apr 13 18:36:48 feature-phone ;-) Apr 13 18:36:59 biab Apr 13 18:37:01 is Ms doing relasing phones without wp7 Apr 13 18:37:07 well, supposedly much cheaper data plan as well comparetd to smartphones Apr 13 18:37:17 the kins are the sidekick replacements Apr 13 18:37:22 yeah Apr 13 18:37:24 ahhhhhhh Apr 13 18:37:31 THAT makes sense now Apr 13 18:37:35 their danger acquisition pooped this out Apr 13 18:37:38 yeah Apr 13 18:37:41 I knew there was a market somewhere Apr 13 18:37:51 its just using the same codebase as the zune and eventually winpho7 Apr 13 18:37:53 danger didn't go under after their snafu? Apr 13 18:37:58 the market is like <= 15 years old Apr 13 18:38:52 I think I'm going to start a Mobile Software Consultation company... that helps you figure out which markets/os's and what software your software company should be developing Apr 13 18:39:04 * oilsworkn will work for zsoc Apr 13 18:39:17 so... your just going to tell everyone go to iphone for money, webos for coolnes? Apr 13 18:39:36 it's hard to make money on the iphone app store Apr 13 18:39:37 speaking of zunes, mine needs to be here now Apr 13 18:39:41 easy to get lost Apr 13 18:39:48 lol Apr 13 18:40:02 basically to tell them exactly what 10 mins of googling would tell them Apr 13 18:40:11 I like this plan Apr 13 18:40:11 sounds like a great business plan Apr 13 18:40:16 * halfhalo_class would work there as well Apr 13 18:40:26 oil: you just described the entire consulting industry Apr 13 18:40:44 I seem to have lost my "share via facebook" link when browsing videos, anyone else have that happen? Apr 13 18:40:55 whats the line? "if you aren't part of the problem theres money to be made in delaying the solution" Apr 13 18:40:58 Theres a share via fb link? Apr 13 18:41:44 Heh. Ordered my 32GB zune HD and the hd dock off amazon last night. The combo was 50 dollars off regular so it was 260 shipped Apr 13 18:41:47 s/delaying/prolonging/ Apr 13 18:42:19 hey, one word somewhat wrong isn't too bad Apr 13 18:42:23 i didn't even google it Apr 13 18:42:28 hehe Apr 13 18:42:32 lol Apr 13 18:42:34 yes, there is an option to upload videos to facebook and some users have experienced issues with it not showing up Apr 13 18:43:02 nn7: I uploaded 2 vides to FB last night with no problem, but that's the only time I've tried it Apr 13 18:43:15 NOVA??? WHEN DID NOVA HIT THE APP CAT?! Apr 13 18:43:18 Epic Apr 13 18:43:26 Link now or die Apr 13 18:43:32 * chrisa is downloading nova Apr 13 18:43:39 OH DAMMIT Apr 13 18:43:43 * oilsworkn has yet to record a video that was more then turning the phone around and saying "hey? does this work?" then stoping the recording and watching it Apr 13 18:43:44 No money till thursday Apr 13 18:44:05 lol Apr 13 18:44:19 afk not specific enough> Apr 13 18:44:22 oilsworkn: some of us have lives in which interesting things happen :) Apr 13 18:44:30 chrisa: gimme your tag xD Apr 13 18:44:31 I doubt that Apr 13 18:44:38 nt4cats|errand: whats that like? Apr 13 18:44:57 I did have a facebook upload fail on me, but it was over 6 minutes long, so I suspect that has something to do with it Apr 13 18:45:10 I suspect COOKIES Apr 13 18:45:11 maybe i should just leave it open to record people doing stupid shit Apr 13 18:45:46 hmm it's not very big Apr 13 18:45:48 Already downloaded Apr 13 18:45:59 lol Apr 13 18:46:05 Granted, wifi Apr 13 18:46:06 all this talk about it, i guess ill have to download it Apr 13 18:46:09 so we can all play online :) Apr 13 18:46:28 I'm debating getting it Apr 13 18:46:37 I find shooters on phones to be a maddening experience. Apr 13 18:46:58 * oilsworkn found doom and quake to not be very easy to play Apr 13 18:47:05 but i haven't played any other fps on my phone Apr 13 18:47:49 oh Apr 13 18:47:56 subscribed thread notification Apr 13 18:48:03 someone wants to pay to get ssl into wircd Apr 13 18:48:35 oilsworkn: they have the sekrats Apr 13 18:49:57 WHY IS HULU LAGGING! Apr 13 18:50:18 so you will not use hulu Apr 13 18:50:27 but...but...but... Apr 13 18:50:33 100Mb connection! Apr 13 18:50:57 * oilsworkn really needs to get more work done on wirc Apr 13 18:51:02 so we can release 0.1.0 Apr 13 18:51:28 there it goes Apr 13 18:52:31 oilsworkn: please please please do Apr 13 18:52:39 I use wirc more than any webos app Apr 13 18:52:52 <3 Apr 13 18:52:59 meh Apr 13 18:53:01 its crap Apr 13 18:53:02 :p Apr 13 18:53:11 * halfhalo_class kids Apr 13 18:53:15 * halfhalo_class hearts hulu Apr 13 18:53:23 * halfhalo_class hearts wirc as well Apr 13 18:56:16 palm pre is now a supported device at my DHA. Apr 13 18:56:19 iphone is not. Apr 13 18:56:26 * sbromwich is mildly amused Apr 13 18:56:36 pre 1 - iphone - 0 Apr 13 18:56:49 yup Apr 13 18:56:54 lulz Apr 13 18:57:18 probably means a lot more purchases of pre for people that can't use the standard blackberry. Apr 13 18:57:44 ie: mac users. Apr 13 18:58:11 has anyone come up with hacks to make the slider more secure? Apr 13 18:58:18 i've been out of the loop for a while Apr 13 18:58:21 irony, like coppery. Apr 13 18:58:28 mmm, copper. Apr 13 18:58:33 I had the share via facebook link until today, now it's just gone! Apr 13 18:58:35 i like glass more. Apr 13 18:58:47 I prefer antimony Apr 13 18:59:00 I like lead Apr 13 18:59:03 noes Apr 13 18:59:13 chips? Apr 13 18:59:19 yes Apr 13 18:59:25 *cough* Apr 13 18:59:46 just like mom used to make Apr 13 18:59:48 lol Apr 13 19:00:09 anyway... I've been at the office far too long, people might think I'm here permanently, so I'm off home. Apr 13 19:00:11 laters Apr 13 19:00:28 lol Apr 13 19:00:41 "that sbromwich guy is a real good worker, always in the office" Apr 13 19:01:15 funny how the printers always run out of red when he stays late Apr 13 19:01:18 wait, what? Apr 13 19:02:09 * oilsworkn goes to lunch Apr 13 19:02:17 lucky sob Apr 13 19:15:23 oil: the google group is filled with spam! eww Apr 13 19:34:21 a little late to the party jack xD Apr 13 19:34:44 lol Apr 13 19:35:26 haha sorry oil Apr 13 19:35:42 oil: by the way, "afk" isn't specific enough. I also 'hang out' on an #irc channel used by my coworkers, and they care about me going to the kitchen for a beer (afk) vs. me walking a few blocks to the bank (errand). Pfffffffft! Apr 13 19:35:58 lol Apr 13 19:36:11 ah Apr 13 19:36:20 need fooood Apr 13 19:36:25 so Apr 13 19:36:33 afk = bank OR beer Apr 13 19:36:42 where errand only = bank? Apr 13 19:37:18 in my book, afk means "if you yell loud enough I'll hear you, but I'm not sitting at my computer". errand means "I left the office" Apr 13 19:38:37 nt4cats: considering 'going to the kitchen for a beer' is a normal part of your job, I still want it. Apr 13 19:39:34 zsoc_wirc: we have a nice kitchen here stocked with food, soda, snacks, and beer -- and they bring in prepared lunches on Mon, Wed, and Fri. Apr 13 19:39:47 oh nice Apr 13 19:39:57 nt4cats: I've seen the pictures. Apr 13 19:39:57 i wish i had that kind of kitchen at work ;( Apr 13 19:40:03 I eat breakfast here every day, and lunch here 9 / 10 days. Apr 13 19:40:03 * oil sends in resume Apr 13 19:40:22 I wanna know where there is too Apr 13 19:40:26 i would only care about beer Apr 13 19:40:27 oil: learn python lol Apr 13 19:40:31 lunch = beer Apr 13 19:40:33 * Lumiere knows python Apr 13 19:40:42 dinner = beer Apr 13 19:40:49 * oil googles Apr 13 19:40:51 nt4cats: beer at a job is genius. if you hire the right people it's actually a great motivator Apr 13 19:40:52 zsoc_wirc: that picture only has a handful of mediocre beer in our 'main' fridge. We actually have a separate beer fridge that we keep stocked with good beer (e.g. no Coors Lite) Apr 13 19:41:03 hahaha a beer fridge Apr 13 19:41:07 buehehe Apr 13 19:41:10 * Lumiere rams head into desk Apr 13 19:41:12 u should have a keg Apr 13 19:41:13 :D Apr 13 19:41:27 We have Engineering openings in Philly (main Engineering team) and Manhattan Apr 13 19:41:37 dtzWill: are you around Apr 13 19:41:39 ew philly... Apr 13 19:41:40 :) Apr 13 19:41:52 Lumiere: its better than la :( Apr 13 19:42:04 * Lumiere is in the DC area... we don't like Philly ;) Apr 13 19:42:12 s/\:\(/\:\)/ Apr 13 19:42:14 :D Apr 13 19:42:19 I lived in Gaithersburg MD for 10 years, went to High School in D.C. Apr 13 19:42:34 nt4cats: I told you I'll take an intern/apprenticeship under the engineers/sysadmin when a tech team goes into manhattan :D hell, you don't even have to pay me muc Apr 13 19:42:36 * Lumiere is in Arlington Apr 13 19:42:59 i'm having job interview today... Apr 13 19:43:04 will see how that goes Apr 13 19:43:04 good luck Apr 13 19:43:13 en0x: good luck Apr 13 19:43:13 ask if they have beer in the fridge Apr 13 19:43:15 i will ask them about "beer fridge" Apr 13 19:43:16 if they say no, just walk out Apr 13 19:43:18 nt4cats: that said... at least you're not in Baltimore or Pittsburg :) Apr 13 19:43:24 thx guys Apr 13 19:43:43 * Lumiere has hockey on the mind too :) Apr 13 19:44:05 en0x: don't forget to ask 'do you want fries with that?' when you're doing the run-through during the interview. Apr 13 19:44:26 lol Apr 13 19:44:49 * Jack87|Work is thinking about screen panning for X Apr 13 19:44:55 eww Apr 13 19:44:58 I HATE screen panning Apr 13 19:45:20 Jack87|Work: I rather virtual desktops Apr 13 19:45:38 zsoc_wirc: elaborate please Apr 13 19:45:45 viewports Apr 13 19:46:09 nt4cats: kk :) Apr 13 19:46:10 zsoc_wirc: screen is fairy small :-/ Apr 13 19:46:22 right. so mutliple screens Apr 13 19:46:23 the fairies are coming! <_< but really Apr 13 19:46:30 lulz Apr 13 19:46:35 think multiple cards Apr 13 19:46:38 of X Apr 13 19:46:43 Jack87|Work: with compositing, we can zoom in/out Apr 13 19:46:52 at my job we are testing virtual desktops for faculty/staff Apr 13 19:46:53 Jack87|Work: similar to current webkit browser Apr 13 19:47:07 they want to get rid of my 10yr old pc Apr 13 19:47:08 :( Apr 13 19:47:10 en0x: I use 4 at home... I can't live without them Apr 13 19:47:12 zsoc_wirc: when zoomed in... = screen panning? Apr 13 19:47:12 lol! Apr 13 19:47:30 instead of panning Apr 13 19:47:30 and 19" 4:3 monitor Apr 13 19:47:32 :( Apr 13 19:47:37 think flicking between screens Apr 13 19:47:42 Jack87|Work: er... well sure. I guess that's possible. panning without a 'zoom in/out' tho is terrible and ugly Apr 13 19:47:42 crt of course Apr 13 19:47:43 :) Apr 13 19:47:53 at least imo that's how I'd like to see it Apr 13 19:47:55 en0x: eww Apr 13 19:48:07 Lumiere: universities are poor man ;( Apr 13 19:48:08 zsoc_wirc: well ya! haha but when you do zoom in you have to pan? Apr 13 19:48:35 Jack87|Work: right, but a 'full view' has no panning. Apr 13 19:48:39 it's a conceptual thing. Apr 13 19:48:58 vs having a 1024x768 desktop and panning around it. Apr 13 19:49:04 zsoc_wirc: problem lies when you zoom in how do you highlight text? Apr 13 19:49:31 .. the shift key Apr 13 19:49:40 compositing doesn't affect interaction Apr 13 19:50:27 morning Apr 13 19:50:35 zsoc_wirc: think dtzWill can implement keyboard toggle modes like it was done in quake? Apr 13 19:50:43 murnin Apr 13 19:50:46 of course Apr 13 19:50:54 rwhitby: hallo Apr 13 19:50:59 zsoc_wirc: that should solve the lack of full keyboard Apr 13 19:51:01 'morning rwhitby Apr 13 19:51:36 zsoc_wirc: I'd do something like 'forward' gesture to change viewport Apr 13 19:51:48 hello rwhitby Apr 13 19:53:23 who do i bug for a quick briefing to install an x environment so i can play with control ideas Apr 13 19:53:44 nt4cats: thx for the optware page - for the prereqs, we should all the command line installer package too Apr 13 19:56:09 rwhitby: fixed Apr 13 19:57:54 nt4cats: awesome Apr 13 20:00:16 bbl Apr 13 20:09:18 * Jack87|Work scratches his head while figuring out process for X enviorment Apr 13 20:11:12 Jack87|Work: when you figure it out, there's a blank wiki page waiting ;) Apr 13 20:11:26 rwhitby: thats the plan :) Apr 13 20:11:54 shoot me a link to the wiki page Apr 13 20:12:22 rwhitby: funny thing is someone popped on the channel this morning and said "I want to install Python from Optware. Anyone know how to do this?" I thought maybe you paid someone $1 to do this just to make it all seem worthwhile Apr 13 20:12:45 nt4cats: nah, people do things like that for me for free Apr 13 20:15:49 rwhitby: i now am on a mac... can i make the small deb image on OSX? or should i pop open my netbook with linux Apr 13 20:16:48 Jack87|Work: you're asking the wrong guy Apr 13 20:17:12 rwhitby: i only ask because i recall you using osx :-/ Apr 13 20:17:21 osx is for pansies Apr 13 20:17:37 halfhalo_class: :-) Apr 13 20:17:37 * halfhalo_class may/may not be using it right now as well Apr 13 20:18:06 yeah, operating system choice and sexual orientation are closely linked I guess Apr 13 20:18:35 rwhitby: did you not know that? Apr 13 20:18:41 well, I didn't mean pansies in regard to sexual orientation, but in regards to physical strength/imitation factor Apr 13 20:19:11 * oil is scared of rabid mac fanboys Apr 13 20:19:14 like a zerg rush Apr 13 20:19:18 lol Apr 13 20:19:26 oh, is that cause the computers that don't run OSX are much heaver? Apr 13 20:19:33 lol Apr 13 20:19:47 hey, my T400 is lighter than my MBP! Apr 13 20:20:01 * oil goes back to work Apr 13 20:20:04 maybe T400 owners are pansies then Apr 13 20:20:16 nah, we get to use our laptops as weapons Apr 13 20:20:33 lol I am with oil Apr 13 20:20:49 I am scared of rabid apple fanboys Apr 13 20:20:58 iPhone user zerg rush Apr 13 20:21:00 my family are mac fanboys Apr 13 20:21:18 my dad was like totally like "omgwtfbbq" when I ordered my zune Apr 13 20:21:21 followed by the mac user trampling run (once they can pick up their laptop) Apr 13 20:21:33 my work oil means playing starcraft 2 Apr 13 20:21:55 Jack87|Work: I can't recall if virtualbox works for mac Apr 13 20:22:00 I run 3 different OS's on my MBP I couldn't do that with my Dell. Apr 13 20:22:08 Jack87|Work: I'd suggest using some virtualization system Apr 13 20:22:16 my work today consists of the a team on hulu and an internet connection thats faster than I can think Apr 13 20:22:19 (if you have the palm sdk... it installs virtualbox) Apr 13 20:22:46 Lumiere: newest virtualbox does work on osx 1.5.x+ but im on my co workers mac and dont want to install a virtual system on it Apr 13 20:23:06 ah Apr 13 20:23:07 i think vmware has a free version as well Apr 13 20:23:27 i used it to run a virtual xp when i was doing some microprocessor work Apr 13 20:23:33 * Jack87|Work pulls out his netbook Apr 13 20:23:41 I have an xp vm on this mbp Apr 13 20:23:45 but only for steam Apr 13 20:23:50 and its not so good at that Apr 13 20:24:38 yeah i boot camp for steam Apr 13 20:24:43 coworker has parallels on this imac :-/ Apr 13 20:24:45 can't Apr 13 20:24:52 i need osx for rails Apr 13 20:25:07 and cant be arsed to pull out my laptop from my backpack Apr 13 20:25:26 cytrix is pretty cool! Apr 13 20:25:43 dammit ups Apr 13 20:25:52 if you have parallels Apr 13 20:25:54 halfhalo_class: haha that was my issue didnt want to pull out netbook Apr 13 20:25:58 why wont you let me pick this up from the depot today so I don't have to wait till tomorrow Apr 13 20:26:15 Lumiere: i know i can install linux on it but then i have to deal with "what's this" Apr 13 20:26:31 Jack87|Work: I like vbox cause I just delete it when I am done Apr 13 20:26:43 Lumiere: agreed Apr 13 20:26:45 * Lumiere likes chuqui's reverse dns very much Apr 13 20:26:46 Lumiere: hehe i hate to install just to delete Apr 13 20:27:12 howdee all Apr 13 20:27:13 hola chuqui Apr 13 20:27:14 that reminds me Apr 13 20:27:30 howdy chuqui Apr 13 20:27:41 thats why its nice to prepackage an OS so that you can install it on a vm and delete it at will Apr 13 20:27:45 * Jack87|Work back to figuring out the X junk....... any advice would be great not sure what questions to ask yet Apr 13 20:27:56 gotta find a cd key for my desktops copy of win 7 ultimate Apr 13 20:28:05 shawalli: sweet idea! Apr 13 20:28:14 Jack87: what are you trying to do with it? Apr 13 20:28:32 he wants to play with it on his pre Apr 13 20:28:38 just figure out how to install an x environment on the pre nothing special Apr 13 20:29:09 want to maybe come up with a tutorial for other end users and think up key bindings Apr 13 20:29:10 Jack87: i have xp with openoffice, dropbox, etc. so i dont have to worry about it every time i install a vm Apr 13 20:29:58 * Jack87|Work 's hard drive boots osx on any computer :) Apr 13 20:30:04 lies! on any intel computer Apr 13 20:30:39 thats effort Apr 13 20:30:51 and thats my I have a mini sitting on top of my desktop at home Apr 13 20:31:05 partially blocking the top air vent, but still Apr 13 20:31:22 Only causes my desktops 9800GTX+ to hit 102C under load Apr 13 20:31:29 i keep Error installing : see Ipkg log but I don't know where to get ipkg Update Apr 13 20:33:24 perhaps someone else knows.... can i do the following on osx or is linux required? http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Debian Apr 13 20:33:38 * halfhalo_class is getting mad that the ups site is not updating the info on his package Apr 13 20:36:15 anyone: is there a quick way to determine if an installed app is not from palm-web or the official app catalog. I am trying to determine that I have installe don my phone that is home brew/testing/... I am trying to figure out the easiest way to determine what apps that will not be restored if I doctor my phone, Apr 13 20:36:32 shivaram: 'ello :) Apr 13 20:36:42 hey will :) Apr 13 20:36:59 fastest way to do it navinag is to just look at the app in the app catalog installed app list and see what it says Apr 13 20:37:13 IE when you tap on it to go to the apps page it will say either beta or WD Apr 13 20:37:17 navinag: try going to the app catalog and clicking on the app...if its not a palm approved app itll say so Apr 13 20:37:41 * echoes halfhalo Apr 13 20:38:03 is there a way via linux commad line to search this? Apr 13 20:38:20 possibly. but it would take longer methinks Apr 13 20:38:31 hmmmmmmmm Apr 13 20:38:42 ok...thanks for the info Apr 13 20:40:29 rwhitby: I have a preware enhancement request. Can the feature be added to display installed application by feed? Apr 13 20:44:00 navinag: you can sort second line by feed Apr 13 20:44:10 hmmmmmm Apr 13 20:44:14 let me look Apr 13 20:49:41 zsoc_wirc: sure enough..thanks Apr 13 21:04:24 lala Apr 13 21:04:56 oddly i cant change my nick hum Apr 13 21:05:30 don't like double underscores? Apr 13 21:06:12 reconnecting Apr 13 21:06:25 weird i cant see your reply either oil Apr 13 21:06:37 how did you know i replied then? Apr 13 21:06:43 lulz Apr 13 21:06:50 Other computer Apr 13 21:07:07 i mean.. im psychic Apr 13 21:07:15 ahh! Apr 13 21:07:26 i quit __ it is Apr 13 21:33:40 oh how nice, just implemented panning in X by holding the gesture area by adding one line to the mouse bindings. Apr 13 21:33:55 phil_bw: nice Apr 13 21:33:57 fancy Apr 13 21:36:02 I swear fvwm is making my life so much easier... it even has built in support for on screen gestures Apr 13 21:36:53 the panning is kinda trippy because the taskbar and background image are stationary but the windows appear to move (which they aren't actually) Apr 13 21:38:05 no? Apr 13 21:39:39 zsoc: did you see what phil_bw did with gesture... thats what i was thinking! Apr 13 21:40:26 phil_bw: i am attempting to get the debian to work right now.... mind if i poke at you a little later when i can have questions that make sense Apr 13 21:40:49 sure, email me if you want Apr 13 21:41:04 only nonsensical questions allowed Apr 13 21:41:20 oilsworkn: sorry Apr 13 21:41:28 phil_bw: whats your email addy Apr 13 21:41:29 lol Apr 13 21:42:40 phil_bw: I always make that the first test ;) Apr 13 21:43:05 phil@boraware.com Apr 13 21:43:33 rwhitby: am i missing something? Apr 13 21:44:11 * oilsworkn signs up for websites he doesn't want emailing him with phil@boraware.com Apr 13 21:44:54 how shall i kill palm-novacom on my linux machine its killing me! Apr 13 21:46:25 it's an upstart job you should be able to stop Apr 13 21:48:39 beelzabub1: how? Apr 13 21:48:47 stop Apr 13 21:48:51 i forget what the job name is Apr 13 21:49:52 pehh i just removed it for now :) Apr 13 21:51:02 quitter Apr 13 21:52:54 oilsworkn, google seems to filter the crap pretty god Apr 13 21:53:17 had that email address for 5 years and really only get the stuff I want Apr 13 21:54:08 yeah, google does do an impeccable job of spam filtering Apr 13 21:55:57 s/spam filtering/turning over your data at the governments request and generally spying on you/ Apr 13 21:57:31 * phil_bw could care less if other people see my emails Apr 13 21:57:37 yeah, im fine with that Apr 13 21:57:40 lol Apr 13 21:57:56 not like i do anything sensitive over email Apr 13 21:58:53 of course they also know what you search for Apr 13 21:58:55 and what links you click on Apr 13 21:59:03 and most sites use page rank.. so where you go and when Apr 13 21:59:15 and what your voice sounds like, if you're ever used gvoice or goog-411 Apr 13 21:59:37 * oilsworkn has never used gvoice or goog-411 Apr 13 22:00:06 zsoc, honestly if it means free it doesn't really bug me Apr 13 22:00:49 and its better then dealing with 100 spam emails a day Apr 13 22:01:13 everyone pays for things in a different way Apr 13 22:02:51 phil_bw: you mean couldnt care less? Apr 13 22:03:31 yes, that's what I mean Apr 13 22:03:33 lol Apr 13 22:03:43 everyone always screws that up Apr 13 22:04:02 i cant count how many times i have read that in the lgos Apr 13 22:04:04 logs Apr 13 22:04:48 and I'm on my Pre so I couldn't care less about typing screw ups even more Apr 13 22:05:03 nice Apr 13 22:06:19 oye, anyone know who the author of Muli Mod for browser is/how to contact? Apr 13 22:06:23 Multi even Apr 13 22:07:49 doesn't it say in preware? Apr 13 22:07:52 ach, found an address from Preware. Sorry to have bothered Apr 13 22:07:55 sure does Apr 13 22:07:59 :) Apr 13 22:08:09 even more or even less whats the best way to word that? Apr 13 22:08:12 :) Apr 13 22:08:21 my pre media drive is full :( Apr 13 22:08:38 hey, guy whos talking, who are you (not you jack, guy talking right before you) Apr 13 22:08:39 * Jack87|Work thinks its 3d games Apr 13 22:08:56 in wirc the name is invisible Apr 13 22:08:57 is firefox available via preware (cf engadget) Apr 13 22:09:07 phil_bw: the one right before me was oil Apr 13 22:09:22 jerms: nope, the author has not submitted it to any feed that Preware serves up Apr 13 22:09:26 ah, thanks Apr 13 22:09:33 alright I'm heading out, later! Apr 13 22:11:26 * Jack87|Work resized debian image Apr 13 22:35:16 terminal emulation is not right for Putty. i.e. vi goofs up. Apr 13 22:42:57 * ka6sox wonders what terminaltype is being emulated. Apr 13 22:43:25 hum... how does one install window manager Apr 13 22:44:22 Jack87|Work: i think you mean "A window manager" Apr 13 22:44:44 * oilsworkn resists urge to lmgtfy jack Apr 13 22:45:06 :) Apr 13 22:45:15 indeed no making fun guys im learning :) Apr 13 22:45:44 we're laughing with you, not at you :) Apr 13 22:45:58 though, i have no clue how to do what you're asking for help on Apr 13 22:46:06 im just colorful commentary Apr 13 22:46:07 ok a little bit of making fun is ok :) Apr 13 22:47:31 no, no, laughing at him Apr 13 22:47:44 Jack87|Work: most of this stuff is not webos specific, feel free to use online documentation Apr 13 22:47:48 zsoc is such a jerk Apr 13 22:48:00 or ask raster, i bet he knows how to "install window manager" ;) Apr 13 22:48:07 oilsworkn: don't make me throw more fruit at you Apr 13 22:48:18 i have trout Apr 13 22:48:20 * Jack87|Work is googling his heart out Apr 13 22:48:23 hey, im the one with all the fruit Apr 13 22:48:40 there is an entire colroom full of reds out there Apr 13 22:48:40 oilsworkn> hey, im the one with all the fruit Apr 13 22:48:44 I wish there was room in the title Apr 13 22:49:57 * Jack87|Work is in debian chroot Apr 13 22:50:32 Jack87|Work: hooray Apr 13 22:50:41 zsoc: eeek! Apr 13 22:54:11 raster: is it true... will you be able to help me install a window manager? Apr 13 22:56:04 * raster sighs Apr 13 22:56:42 why is it that i figured out how to change window managers in the days long before searcch engines Apr 13 22:56:48 or any web worth talking about Apr 13 22:56:53 by reading man pages Apr 13 22:56:59 lol Apr 13 22:57:00 scary Apr 13 22:57:08 and these days people need to be hand-held on irc? Apr 13 22:57:17 --replace & disown ftw Apr 13 22:57:20 how the world has disintegrated Apr 13 22:57:36 at least there is an upside Apr 13 22:57:40 * Jack87|Work continues to scratch his head Apr 13 22:57:47 i'll neever be out of a job :) Apr 13 22:57:53 haha Apr 13 22:58:15 it seems the world at large has lost the abilty to figure shit out.. thats ok i guess. the world can pay me to do it for them :) Apr 13 22:58:41 as i said... job for life :) Apr 13 22:59:35 i just hope the world somehow produces people who can figure stuff out after i'm dead... or it's in big trouble :) Apr 13 22:59:45 anyway... Apr 13 23:00:05 raster: i liek u Apr 13 23:00:08 <3 Apr 13 23:00:11 Jack87|Work: install a wm, compile one, or simply "set up my user to use a wm that is already there and installed" ? Apr 13 23:01:12 raster: in his case, he's probably going to have to compile one from the widk Apr 13 23:01:15 zsoc: sorry about that. i just sometimes get despondent on oh much i have hnd-held people through things on irc when i remember fiuring it out without google, altavista, irc or mailing lists. ie.e using all that wonderful documentation people have written :) Apr 13 23:01:23 not sure if the stuff in optware is compatible with the hacked X server Apr 13 23:01:25 people keeep asking me about docs for e/efl Apr 13 23:01:31 * rwhitby bbl (theme park time) Apr 13 23:01:41 i keep going "why bother?" :) no one reads them anyway :) Apr 13 23:01:51 so it has to be done within the debian chroot then Apr 13 23:01:53 that happens to me a lot at work Apr 13 23:01:57 even with things NOT computer related Apr 13 23:02:06 people have lost the ability to figure things out Apr 13 23:02:13 Jack87|Work: u can a debian chrooot where apt works? Apr 13 23:02:14 that or because im here they're just too lazy to have to figure it out Apr 13 23:02:19 and call me because its easier Apr 13 23:02:36 Jack87|Work: er.. well yes. but ultimately i'm not sure this is going to help you so much. the X stuff being ran is outside a chroot (to my knowledge) Apr 13 23:02:41 one i specifically remember Apr 13 23:02:42 oilsworkn: here here. Apr 13 23:02:45 is getting called to accounting Apr 13 23:02:50 "the printer isn't printing" Apr 13 23:02:56 i get there, read the little display Apr 13 23:03:03 "load letter tray 1" Apr 13 23:03:06 oilsworkn: so true. what has happened to the world? Apr 13 23:03:07 HAHAHAH Apr 13 23:03:09 oilsworkn: okidata? Apr 13 23:03:13 zsoc: i feel like the WM needs to be in the chroot then ran in the start up script of the xserver for the pre Apr 13 23:03:15 no a hp lazer Apr 13 23:03:19 ah Apr 13 23:03:20 raster: yes i belive i can Apr 13 23:03:21 we got okidatas around here though Apr 13 23:03:31 raster: *believe apt works Apr 13 23:03:31 to print reports and tags etc Apr 13 23:03:39 Jack87|Work: have you tried apt-get install myfavoritewm ? Apr 13 23:03:41 I always cross out the 'ata' and write 'oki' Apr 13 23:03:47 (whatever it happens to be) ? Apr 13 23:03:52 haha Apr 13 23:04:27 raster: nope :) sorry im a total newb doing my best Apr 13 23:04:55 we actually have this http://xkcd.com/627/ Apr 13 23:05:01 printed out and hanging on the wall Apr 13 23:05:07 its always good for a laugh Apr 13 23:05:44 im going to try to compile one via chroot Apr 13 23:06:42 Jack87|Work: so i have to pick a wm for you? Apr 13 23:06:53 haha Apr 13 23:07:10 raster: lets say we want fvwm :) Apr 13 23:07:30 aha! a choice! Apr 13 23:07:32 we, lol Apr 13 23:07:44 oilsworkn: shh! Apr 13 23:07:45 :) Apr 13 23:07:47 lol Apr 13 23:07:52 * oilsworkn shuts up Apr 13 23:08:03 then... apt-get install fvwm Apr 13 23:08:06 no? Apr 13 23:08:24 so ubuntu arm is using E for the unaccelerated 2d case, because it's so fast Apr 13 23:08:25 wow raster you are a god! Apr 13 23:08:27 :) Apr 13 23:09:06 jacques: of course, and they are better off for it Apr 13 23:09:24 once done i need to figure out how to apply the window manager to the xorg server start up script on the pre Apr 13 23:09:30 Jack87|Work: using efl to be exact - for netbook launcher. e also supports acclerated rendering - just flip the swithc. Apr 13 23:09:33 switch Apr 13 23:09:44 zsoc, indubitably Apr 13 23:09:47 (full opengl and opengl-es2.0 engine lurking there) Apr 13 23:10:00 tho thats just a launcher there Apr 13 23:10:07 they shoudl eventually move the wm in too Apr 13 23:10:20 raster: that stuff xcomp did that time got pushed upstream right? Apr 13 23:10:34 by the way raster i appreciate your help Apr 13 23:10:42 raster, OK that sounds more right than what I said :-) not E, but the EFL Apr 13 23:10:43 and enjoy the humor! Apr 13 23:10:46 Jack87|Work: how do u start x? Apr 13 23:10:53 Jack87|Work: :) Apr 13 23:11:07 neeed a bettter name for efl Apr 13 23:11:27 zsoc: his sdl-gl stuff for evas? Apr 13 23:11:28 raster: um... i have x installed through testing feed lol Apr 13 23:11:47 Jack87|Work: yes.. installed.. but how do you start it? Apr 13 23:12:05 raster: enlighten me Apr 13 23:12:13 oh - you dont know? Apr 13 23:12:21 negatice Apr 13 23:12:24 ya Apr 13 23:12:26 negative* Apr 13 23:12:42 Jack87|Work: i don't think he knows jack... Apr 13 23:12:55 i assumed by mentioning startup script you know Apr 13 23:12:57 :) Apr 13 23:13:18 raster: currently the X server is boot strapped by whatever X app you're running (xterm i think is the only one out of alpha) Apr 13 23:13:26 raster: there is a xserver app on the phone dtzWill created when launched ir runs a start up script Apr 13 23:13:48 i just not quit sure how to make the start up script use the window manager yet for the debian build Apr 13 23:13:50 or he did that i guess Apr 13 23:14:13 well i have no idea how that setup gets x to run Apr 13 23:14:23 or even what the executable is Apr 13 23:14:54 u installed x via apt/dpkg? Apr 13 23:14:55 when the WM is done installing i will paste bin the startup script Apr 13 23:15:12 ok Apr 13 23:15:17 raster: its simply an ipk located in preware Apr 13 23:15:25 ok Apr 13 23:15:36 well u know the script then Apr 13 23:15:43 :) Apr 13 23:16:03 im just not sure how to make it boot the debian image Apr 13 23:16:14 ... Apr 13 23:16:41 u'll have to split it into 2 Apr 13 23:16:50 haha i am so close! when its done i will attempt to write a how to for all (if a dummy can do it so can anyone) Apr 13 23:17:02 ie launch another script thats inside the chroot Apr 13 23:17:21 http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/240926-x-server-pre.html#post2370725 Apr 13 23:17:23 anyone know if all the palm source from opensource.palm.com is squirrelled away in the webos git tree anywhere? Apr 13 23:17:35 see if that gives you an idea of whats going on Apr 13 23:17:55 sbromwich, not that I know of Apr 13 23:17:59 * sbromwich is taking a poke at cryptofs and wants to be lazy getting dependencies filled Apr 13 23:18:00 bum. Apr 13 23:18:15 jacques: thanks anyway :-) Apr 13 23:18:27 (I assume you meant webos internals git tree) Apr 13 23:18:38 yup Apr 13 23:19:11 I have had a subtle pointer from a generous person to take a look at a certain point in cryptofs Apr 13 23:19:19 :-) Apr 13 23:19:36 Jack87|Work: enough of this work has already been done, you may want to wait till dtzWill can give you a pointer or two Apr 13 23:21:48 raster: this is the script and somewhere in there need to set it to launch the WM http://webos.pastebin.com/A2VPSu3N Apr 13 23:23:03 Jack87|Work: see #XXX Apr 13 23:23:08 replace that with Apr 13 23:24:00 chroot /path/to/debian/root /home/debianusername/.xinitrc Apr 13 23:24:14 replace paths as appropriate for where thins are on your system Apr 13 23:24:41 thank you raster Apr 13 23:24:55 you will then need to edit that .xinitrc script/file Apr 13 23:25:11 to use the new window manager? Apr 13 23:25:11 creatte it and chmod a+r+x .xinitrc Apr 13 23:25:12 etc. Apr 13 23:25:30 well i'm ttrying to help by having what looks like a standard xinitrc cscript Apr 13 23:25:40 that script will laynch the wm Apr 13 23:25:42 launch Apr 13 23:25:59 u chould launch the wm direct from chroot - but i Apr 13 23:26:18 i'm tyring to provide a layer so u can add more - like setting a background, running other x apps/utils etc. etc. Apr 13 23:28:27 now the chroot is accessed via mounting the debsmall.img file Apr 13 23:30:14 well you mount it somewhhere Apr 13 23:30:22 then u chroot into it Apr 13 23:30:31 so add the mount cmd before the chroot one Apr 13 23:32:33 anyway Apr 13 23:32:37 that .xinitrc file Apr 13 23:32:44 all it needs it Apr 13 23:32:48 #!/bin/sh Apr 13 23:32:51 fvwm Apr 13 23:33:02 (or whatever the binary is for fvwm - it may be fvwm2) Apr 13 23:33:21 roger that Apr 13 23:37:10 rememebr to make it executable Apr 13 23:37:17 (chmod a+r+x .xinitrc) Apr 13 23:37:28 edit with whatever editor u ike Apr 13 23:37:31 (even cat) Apr 13 23:37:35 meow Apr 13 23:38:03 raster: home doesnt look like there is a user name folder in home dir of debian chroot Apr 13 23:38:13 home looks empty Apr 13 23:38:37 hmmm Apr 13 23:38:49 use /root then i guess Apr 13 23:38:55 since u arent running as a user id anyway Apr 13 23:39:11 ie /root/.xinitrc Apr 13 23:39:57 raster: http://webos.pastebin.com/DdJhHit1 Apr 13 23:40:47 raster: i dont mean to bug you let me know if i am i'll let you go and attack this at a later time Apr 13 23:41:39 godo Apr 13 23:41:43 then edit .xiinitrc Apr 13 23:42:00 it wont exist Apr 13 23:42:08 so its a new file Apr 13 23:42:17 the simplest way is Apr 13 23:42:34 echo '#!/bin/sh" > .xinitrc Apr 13 23:42:46 echo 'fvwm' >> .xinitrc Apr 13 23:42:56 chmod a+r+x .xinitrc Apr 13 23:42:59 done Apr 13 23:45:27 zsoc: optware stuff works great for the xserver. xterm, xchat, etc Apr 13 23:45:28 from /root? Apr 13 23:46:03 dtzWill: good to know :) Apr 13 23:46:30 Jack87|Work: yes Apr 13 23:48:28 raster: oh joy you're getting in on the x stuff. Apr 13 23:48:42 manually invoking some xinitrc from the chroot is a fine idea Apr 13 23:48:51 hopefully we won't need a chroot down the line.... :) Apr 13 23:49:29 there's a lot of "maybe's" and whatnots regarding X, the way it works, and its future from the discussion above Apr 13 23:49:37 does anyone have any particular questions? :) Apr 13 23:49:49 dtzWill: not really - just helping out Apr 13 23:49:50 :) Apr 13 23:50:05 raster: well you mostly seemed to know what was on, or made reasonable enough assumptions anyway :) Apr 13 23:50:21 raster: help always appreciated by everyone Apr 13 23:50:28 dtzWill: been around the block a few times. the blocks all look the same in the end :) Apr 13 23:50:33 dtzWill: so... how does the current xserver package work? a chroot as well? Apr 13 23:50:41 some have blue houses, some red. Apr 13 23:50:42 :) Apr 13 23:50:50 zsoc: none of my work has anything to do with a chroot :) Apr 13 23:50:52 i don't think it's nearly large enough D: Apr 13 23:50:54 raster: should i creat .xiinitrc in the root dir via vi and add those two lines of code to it? Apr 13 23:50:56 dtzWill: that's what i thought :) Apr 13 23:51:16 Jack87|Work: the file shoudl contain: Apr 13 23:51:18 zsoc: the chroot is a separte thing that's convneient to acquire/run/contain pre-built applications that USE the x server Apr 13 23:51:19 #!/bin/sh Apr 13 23:51:20 fvwm Apr 13 23:51:26 ---- thats it Apr 13 23:51:26 ah Apr 13 23:51:28 those 2 lines Apr 13 23:51:33 put them in there any way you like Apr 13 23:51:35 raster, Jack87|Work it's conceivable the DISPLAY env var isn't set at that point Apr 13 23:51:46 chmake sure u make it executable(chmod a+r+x .xinitrc) Apr 13 23:52:06 small point, but the invocation of the xinit probably wants to be DISPLAY=:0.0 chroot /mediacf ~/.xinitrc or whichever Apr 13 23:52:19 but everyting else raster said Apr 13 23:52:25 ideally we'd have the xserver launch the xinit or something :( Apr 13 23:52:35 right now we fork it off and sleep for a second... gulp lol Apr 13 23:52:50 dtzWill: that is true Apr 13 23:53:05 actuallly why doesnt it set DISPLAY at the top/ Apr 13 23:53:11 since it's used in launching x Apr 13 23:53:16 9itself) Apr 13 23:53:30 raster: well it's a script that launches X, but it is passed indirectly through the dISPLAY env which display to run on Apr 13 23:53:38 dtzWill: actually u want xinit to launch x :) Apr 13 23:53:46 raster: so it would be easier to launch an X server on a different display, idk Apr 13 23:54:02 dtzWill: hmmm i guess handy for multiple apps/xservers Apr 13 23:54:05 raster: errr but wouldn't X run the xinitrc? I always assumed that's how ai it works Apr 13 23:54:08 tho not efficient as u can share a single x Apr 13 23:54:12 raster: it wasn't the most validated/thought out design Apr 13 23:54:18 but then u'd not have a card per x app Apr 13 23:54:22 :) Apr 13 23:54:27 bah Apr 13 23:54:30 raster: agreed, and that's the direction I think we're hoping for. with some rootless/multiwindow work to get multiple cards Apr 13 23:54:31 horridibubble Apr 13 23:54:39 it's not THAT terrible :( Apr 13 23:54:39 haha Apr 13 23:54:47 * dtzWill tries to find a way to make it worse Apr 13 23:54:49 so enlightenment is running on the pre? Apr 13 23:54:52 well more the "neew xserver per app" Apr 13 23:54:55 thts horridibubble Apr 13 23:54:57 ahhh! i am unable to save the file Apr 13 23:55:02 atleast when i do.. its not in the dir Apr 13 23:55:03 raster: oh yeah, and there's a resaon taht's not how it's done yet Apr 13 23:55:04 but.. now ay to get cards without doing that Apr 13 23:55:43 just to save mem i'd go for simply re-using the 1 xserver Apr 13 23:55:45 i thought someone worked out a way to get multiple cards? fork+card per child+ipc ? :P Apr 13 23:55:54 Jack87|Work: mv it there then Apr 13 23:55:57 raster: that's the current design, yeah Apr 13 23:56:19 raster: do you know how normal xinit/xinitrc setup works? I guess i should poke at the xinit source, but thought i'd bug ya first Apr 13 23:56:27 raster: when i creat it using vi and save with :wq where does it save to? Apr 13 23:56:27 dtzWill: fork will still end up COWing a lot Apr 13 23:56:29 somehow the server either runs xinitrc or signals xinit that it's ready... Apr 13 23:56:38 and create pain on the socket side as u now share the socket fd Apr 13 23:56:55 the connect/bind fd too u listen on Apr 13 23:57:09 Jack87|Work: current working dir Apr 13 23:57:09 bah :/ Apr 13 23:57:19 Jack87|Work: u know ls doenst list files starting with . ? Apr 13 23:57:22 by default Apr 13 23:57:25 ls -a Apr 13 23:57:27 to show all Apr 13 23:57:46 ooo ok i see it now Apr 13 23:57:55 dtzWill: i'll happily live in my native x based ui on my phones :) much saner Apr 13 23:57:57 :) Apr 13 23:58:10 Jack87|Work: chmod it... Apr 13 23:58:17 raster: heh. not an unreasonable thing at all... Apr 13 23:58:17 done :) Apr 13 23:58:18 then i did forget Apr 13 23:58:21 * dtzWill wishes luna was X-tastic Apr 13 23:58:22 the top of that script Apr 13 23:58:38 wheere it says #Launchers the xserver Apr 13 23:58:41 err Apr 13 23:58:44 wheere it says #Launches the xserver Apr 13 23:58:48 wheere it says #Launches the x server Apr 13 23:58:50 i mean Apr 13 23:59:00 add a new line after that comment Apr 13 23:59:10 DISPLAY=:0.0 Apr 13 23:59:40 raster: that script is run with the proper DISPLAY var, at least at that point (see that it assumes it's been set) Apr 13 23:59:56 dtzWill: webos went the wrong way imho. but... word on the street is palm is going to be sold off anyway - so who knwos what will become of webos Apr 13 23:59:58 raster: sorry if I'm spreading misinformation, I just wanted to ensure that this structure did have it set at some point :) Apr 14 00:00:40 dtzWill: sure. got your logic :) just forcing it to be set to the sxcfirp tcan be dumbly launched and up will come an x card with a wm in it Apr 14 00:00:44 the rest is then doable from the wm Apr 14 00:00:48 :) Apr 14 00:01:06 (menus, docks etc.) Apr 14 00:01:30 raster: sounds good, and yep. that's how I have mine set up--except I have the xterm app run by itself since there's no need for a wm and whatnot if you just want your xterm :) Apr 14 00:02:04 sure Apr 14 00:02:33 anyway ty, carry on :D Apr 14 00:03:07 it all depends whhat u want from there Apr 14 00:03:15 its not mechanics - its personal taste Apr 14 00:03:20 i'd just run e17 Apr 14 00:03:32 but then i'd also compile it all Apr 14 00:03:39 and maybe write a custom home screen for illume2 Apr 14 00:03:47 with elementary Apr 14 00:04:00 hell elementary'' test app includes 90% of a launcher ui Apr 14 00:04:02 :) Apr 14 00:05:18 Jack87|Work: http://webos.pastebin.com/nT5RUYH7 <-- updated for what you want, +- typos Apr 14 00:05:49 dtzWill: thank you.. i was really close Apr 14 00:05:59 Jack87|Work: if that doesn't work, bug me/us :) Apr 14 00:06:10 but note that you need the chroot mounted already for all that to work. Apr 14 00:06:20 dtzWill: roger that Apr 14 00:07:54 Jack87|Work: 'ello :) Apr 14 00:09:30 dtzWill: got it yay Apr 14 00:10:18 dtzWill: how do i launch a prettier gui Apr 14 00:10:32 fvwm works? Apr 14 00:10:39 raster: yes :) Apr 14 00:10:46 thanks1 Apr 14 00:10:53 well then - replace the fvwm line with... a better wm Apr 14 00:10:54 :) Apr 14 00:10:56 i get "built in menu" Apr 14 00:11:02 * raster is biased Apr 14 00:11:56 raster: suggestions? Apr 14 00:12:24 my suggestions will be well beyond your ability to follow through :) Apr 14 00:12:52 lol Apr 14 00:13:27 (it will invvolve compiling a wm, checking its src out from svn etc. etc. - aand as such it doesnt just invoolve a wm, but a whole suite of libraries/toolkits u'll have to do this with) Apr 14 00:14:07 also if u compile on your pre in the debian chroot... it will take hours... maybe a day or so unless u automated it entirely to save time Apr 14 00:14:42 it'll also suck up lots of disks space in the debian chroot image just to get the svn checkout, and all the build tools Apr 14 00:15:29 raster: right now fvwm doesnt have much at all Apr 14 00:15:35 looks like it needs to be configured Apr 14 00:15:37 nup Apr 14 00:15:42 it doesnt Apr 14 00:15:59 but i've been writing wm's for like 14 years Apr 14 00:16:04 so i'm biased Apr 14 00:16:06 :) Apr 14 00:16:42 oo nice and pretty now Apr 14 00:17:03 so its made to look like win95 eh Apr 14 00:17:13 lol Apr 14 00:18:07 ugh Apr 14 00:20:00 dtzWill: are you running debsmall image as well? Apr 14 00:22:10 raster: any ideas of a current WM that you think will do well on the pre Apr 14 00:22:31 see above Apr 14 00:22:32 :) Apr 14 00:22:47 PLEASE no one commit to the widk for a little bit.. i can merge small commits but don't mess with the filesystem Apr 14 00:22:56 raster: hhaha :) Apr 14 00:23:13 * oil gets in there and mucks it all up Apr 14 00:23:36 raster: do you feel E would run well on X on an embedded device? or does it seem redundant? Apr 14 00:23:54 s/E/e/ Apr 14 00:23:54 zsoc meant: raster: do you feel e would run well on X on an embedded device? or does it seem redundant? Apr 14 00:24:00 zsoc: e RUNS on my embedded devices with tiny 3-4" screens Apr 14 00:24:11 raster: I am referring to the X layer Apr 14 00:24:15 it IS the primary ui//launcher/env/compositor etc. Apr 14 00:24:17 yes Apr 14 00:24:22 i am talking of x too Apr 14 00:24:30 thus why i say E... not EFL :) Apr 14 00:24:35 Ok then. We should do it. Most of the efls is staged anyway Apr 14 00:24:40 raster: ah, i see. Apr 14 00:25:00 * Jack87|Work is going to try IceWM Apr 14 00:25:25 the worst bit is the illume2 stuff has a very rough ui Apr 14 00:25:38 its actually all quick drop-in example modules to get it working Apr 14 00:25:45 the intent is u'd replace them with your own modules or apps Apr 14 00:26:13 and thhats what elementary is for - to make wirting your own home/launcher, indicator etc. etc. a breeze Apr 14 00:29:10 Is there anyway to have grep prepend it's findings with what files it's dragging it from? Apr 14 00:29:15 oh.. nm Apr 14 00:29:29 answer: don't pipe crappy info into grep Apr 14 00:32:16 * Jack87|Work is now running icewm but doesnt look as pretty as dtzWill (no gnome?) Apr 14 00:32:36 Jack87|Work: don't run gnome or kde if you value your device's life :D Apr 14 00:32:42 Jack87|Work: the screenshots I took wer lxde Apr 14 00:32:43 *were Apr 14 00:32:59 Jack87|Work: with stock configuration, fresh off apt-get Apr 14 00:33:13 oh wow it says icewm on the P|C thread Apr 14 00:33:15 dtzWill: is it worth running with lxde? Apr 14 00:33:25 despite it CLEARLY being lxde, even indicating as such on the desktop >_> <_< Apr 14 00:33:28 * dtzWill edits Apr 14 00:33:44 i see lxde : Apr 14 00:34:12 that would explain everyone running icewm..... o_O Apr 14 00:34:17 :[ Apr 14 00:34:36 haha my image is going to get filled with different WM Apr 14 00:34:56 u can always apt-get remove them later Apr 14 00:35:07 raster: you are a genious Apr 14 00:36:06 no Apr 14 00:36:16 i'm crazy Apr 14 00:36:18 :) Apr 14 00:36:22 fine difference Apr 14 00:36:33 luckily i am downloading at 700+ k/sec when installing these WMs via pre Apr 14 00:37:10 raster: very fine Apr 14 00:45:07 can someome please verify that http://palm.cdnetworks.net/rom/pre/p1411r0d03312010/sr1ntp1411rod/webosdoctorp100ewwsprint.jar is back up and working and that i am not going crazy Apr 14 00:45:08 PLEASE Apr 14 00:45:25 this is necessary for my sanity and for fixing the widk Apr 14 00:45:42 zsoc: works here Apr 14 00:45:46 dtzWill: tyvm Apr 14 00:45:51 zsoc: idk about "working" but it deifnitely offers a file to dl Apr 14 00:46:03 zsoc: also way to finally tackle that widk org stuff :D Apr 14 00:46:23 dtzWill: heh, we'll see if you still are saying that when i'm done lol Apr 14 00:46:29 it's becoming a huge pain actually Apr 14 00:46:33 a lot of relative directory garbage Apr 14 00:46:39 i'm going to have to sed some things globally Apr 14 00:48:08 zsoc: yeppers. doesn't help that so many thingss are broken yuo can't take the lazy (but accurate!) way of letting a rebuild be your success oracle Apr 14 00:50:07 dtzWill: well it's all getting fixed, heh Apr 14 00:50:40 this is going to be a much more 'standard' method of a build environment like this, as far as categorizing goes Apr 14 00:50:55 zsoc: wonderful. Apr 14 00:51:07 it'll also probably be wrong, heh Apr 14 00:51:23 plus after i still need to graduate packages from 'nonworking' that indeed work Apr 14 00:51:54 and anything i'm unsure how to catagorize will get dumped into common/ for future catagorization, which is partially ok, but partially sucks because we'll have to re DEPENDS: the packages that rely on them if they are relocated Apr 14 00:52:36 but this is the best option, short of regexp parsing, and i'm NOT getting into that Apr 14 00:52:48 * Jack87|Work likes matchbox Apr 14 00:52:54 we still have few enough packages I can set everything up 'by hand' so to speak, and just moving forward we'll have to keep it organized Apr 14 00:54:43 zapz: hello plus wircer Apr 14 00:59:00 zsoc: yeah as you know i have lots of things in nonworking that work (if they don't please bug me) but didn't wanna add to the clutter :) Apr 14 00:59:03 but \o/ organization Apr 14 01:00:00 if you know off the top of your head it would be nice Apr 14 01:00:13 i scoff at the idea of building every package in the widk on a single core cpu Apr 14 01:00:21 zsoc: I agree that's a bad idea Apr 14 01:00:40 i mean, as it is now /nothing/ works Apr 14 01:00:47 so i'm going to fix the doctor, and get things to where what I test works Apr 14 01:00:52 and then let other people tell me if something is broken Apr 14 01:01:22 zsoc: kk Apr 14 01:02:31 I still like the comment that palm should hire us all and lock us up in a room with mtn dew and munchies haha Apr 14 01:02:34 hilarious image xD Apr 14 01:03:05 and beer Apr 14 01:03:08 i'd be ok with that Apr 14 01:03:14 beer and 60k Apr 14 01:03:27 i don't ask for much Apr 14 01:03:46 haha :D Apr 14 01:04:52 so i have two shells open from my vbox right now... 1 of them is making stage in the widk, and the other is making package in the autobuilder Apr 14 01:04:58 lets just say... it's taking a little while to think Apr 14 01:05:19 zsoc: and single-core? :D Apr 14 01:05:43 kindda like big brother but with pre-s and workstatioons? Apr 14 01:08:06 zapz: nah, your hostmask was just sticking out :) no biggie, we lover to see wircers here :D carry on Apr 14 01:08:14 s/lover/love Apr 14 01:08:17 odd typo Apr 14 01:08:20 dtzWill: yes indeed, a single core :D Apr 14 01:09:30 zsoc: :D. upgrade that shit. and/or distcc with your phones :D Apr 14 01:09:57 dtzWill: i have been looking for months, i just can't find the right box at the right price Apr 14 01:10:01 theorarm? :) Apr 14 01:10:18 zsoc: TMI ;) Apr 14 01:11:37 nice Apr 14 01:12:33 Why does the widk download/stage both the Pre /and/ the Pixi doctors? Apr 14 01:13:49 oh i see, for armv6 staging Apr 14 01:13:52 makes sense i suppose Apr 14 01:15:27 theorarm makes me happy. I hope it gets worked into webos soon Apr 14 01:16:03 RagingMind: i assume that's some sort of ... arm friendly theora encoder/decoder? Apr 14 01:16:22 http://wss.co.uk/pinknoise/theorarm/ Apr 14 01:16:31 yes. and google just decided to fund it Apr 14 01:17:25 there are plenty of theora based plugins for gstreamer, and avlibs (avcodec, etc, the basis of ffmpeg) also supports it in every direction already Apr 14 01:18:19 so what /should/ happen is theorarm needs to been wrapped as plugins to those 2 frameworks Apr 14 01:18:24 and i'm sure it will Apr 14 01:19:22 * Jack87|Work at some point should leave the office... getting cold out! wont be fun ride home Apr 14 01:20:00 RagingMind: i will keep an eye on it, thanks for bringing it up Apr 14 01:21:35 * Jack87|Work wants a hard drive activity light while installing packages Apr 14 01:47:16 synaptic! Apr 14 01:47:40 dselect Apr 14 01:51:26 cool Apr 14 01:51:43 jack87-xsorg: xchat? :) Apr 14 01:51:55 ill fo firefox via x for yo dtxwill Apr 14 01:52:40 ya xchat Apr 14 01:52:44 i dunno why i lost my connection Apr 14 01:52:49 back Apr 14 01:52:53 "i'll fo firefox" ? Apr 14 01:52:59 do* Apr 14 01:53:22 you were disapointed that the firefox demo wasnt using xserver Apr 14 01:53:26 jack87-xsorg: like http://wdtz.org/pre_x/ice1.png ? :) Apr 14 01:53:30 so ill make a demo that is Apr 14 01:53:43 jack87-xsorg: oh yeah but I'm also happy, they way they did it should be faster, at least originally Apr 14 01:54:02 maybe can do flash Apr 14 01:54:11 hopefully we have enough people here interested that X shouldn't die a quick death Apr 14 01:54:16 but maybe i'm just optimistic :D Apr 14 01:54:28 jack87-xsorg: is there a publicly available flash build for ARM? Apr 14 01:54:44 ill try to make a how to so people dont have to think Apr 14 01:54:59 no :-( Apr 14 01:55:12 jack87-xsorg: lol so people don't have to think. :) Apr 14 01:55:14 jack87-xsorg: kk sounds good. Apr 14 01:55:28 jack87-xsorg: hopefully we'll eventually have a firefox package people can just click and install Apr 14 01:55:32 but..that's a good ways off Apr 14 01:55:41 this is fun!!! it will help me think up key maps Apr 14 02:00:45 channel switcher as tabs goes a long ways ku Apr 14 02:00:48 :) Apr 14 02:05:34 dtzWill: running x like this is almost like running a VM on your pre using linux image Apr 14 02:07:01 is there a file browser in matchbox? Apr 14 02:44:48 webkit2 is realllly awesome Apr 14 02:45:22 oh yeah ? Apr 14 02:48:45 rwhitby: I'm pretty sure I got the script right to support Gangstar in Save/Restore. I tried to test it on my device but I don't think I can *really* test it unless I doctor. I don't want to doctor my device just to see if it will *really* work. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 14 02:59:56 2010