**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 04 02:59:57 2011 Feb 04 05:22:39 how's it goin? Feb 04 06:08:50 freetether rulz! lol Feb 04 06:09:10 PatrickC_Pre: srsly Feb 04 06:09:18 yep Feb 04 06:09:22 * wgreenhouse types from mini tethered to pre+ Feb 04 06:09:27 use it all the time Feb 04 06:09:28 lol Feb 04 06:09:52 * PatrickC_Pre writes all his app reviews from a PC tethered w/ pre+ Feb 04 06:10:24 * PatrickC_Pre also needs more writers... with more devices then just webos lol Feb 04 06:10:59 SineOt and I were discussing that this is the perfect technology for a Linux install with b0rked wifi Feb 04 06:11:09 because most distros have usb networking drivers that "just work" Feb 04 06:11:21 so to fix linux, you should have livecd/liveusb system + your pre Feb 04 06:11:40 wait, you mean turn you're pre into a liveusb? Feb 04 06:11:48 no Feb 04 06:11:59 use the Pre as the network device for the liveusb system Feb 04 06:12:02 lol, wait then what. I'm lost lol Feb 04 06:12:09 oh I did that Feb 04 06:12:12 yeah Feb 04 06:12:15 except from a livecd Feb 04 06:12:31 my PC won't boot from a usb :'( Feb 04 06:12:36 this netbook, lacking an optical drive, takes liveusbs Feb 04 06:12:48 its bios can even boot from SD card though ;) Feb 04 06:12:58 * PatrickC_Pre needs to get a newer computer Feb 04 06:13:02 wow Feb 04 06:13:17 I have a system for it, with config saved to HD Feb 04 06:13:17 who makes it, what os? Feb 04 06:13:27 that boots off of live sd Feb 04 06:13:35 sweet Feb 04 06:13:38 computer is a 2009-model HP Mini 210 Feb 04 06:13:47 running, uhh....various flavors of Debian Feb 04 06:13:57 mostly grml ( http://grml.org/ ) Feb 04 06:14:05 lol, what would you need a live sd for Feb 04 06:14:22 well, I run an old Tiger desktop with XP home Feb 04 06:14:50 it was just how I booted into it for a while. Debian "persistency" is very good, so it dynamically saved itself to the hard drive without doing an install Feb 04 06:14:57 finally I did a proper install when I had a setup I liked Feb 04 06:15:00 or a dinosaur laptop that is suppose to be running Win ME but I have it running XP Pro Feb 04 06:15:04 but for months it booted by SD Feb 04 06:15:36 * PatrickC_Pre is looking up debian Feb 04 06:15:38 i.e. kernel would boot off of SD, and autodetect a drive named live-rw Feb 04 06:15:42 and that would become the root filesystem Feb 04 06:15:51 all during boot before init starts Feb 04 06:15:59 meaning that the live-rw system can even alter the init scripts Feb 04 06:16:05 it's *very close* to installing Feb 04 06:16:17 but the whole image could be in a file, stored under another OS Feb 04 06:16:54 awesome! I don't have an sd reader for my computer, and it can't boot from it anyway :p Feb 04 06:17:07 how close is debian to ubuntu Feb 04 06:17:40 debian is sort of the mothership/inspiration of ubuntu. the apt package system is from debian Feb 04 06:17:53 ubuntu takes a lot of UI stuff in very different directions Feb 04 06:18:08 so, ubuntu sorta/kinda came from debian? Feb 04 06:18:16 yeah Feb 04 06:18:49 Ubuntu is Debian + Canonical, which is a private developer that also does Linux sysadmin support stuff Feb 04 06:18:50 sweet (I haven't put ubuntu on my desktop cause it slow enough with only XP lol) Feb 04 06:19:20 I run Debian Sid, a.k.a. debian-unstable Feb 04 06:19:28 and I don't want to fully get rid of windows, as I don't have a fresh install disk Feb 04 06:19:33 which is a rolling release of latest bleeding edge packages :-P Feb 04 06:19:40 you run the beta versions? Feb 04 06:19:53 basically, this is a beta *system* Feb 04 06:19:58 I like bleeding edge. I use those kernels on all my phones :) Feb 04 06:20:07 debian comes in three flavors, -stable, -testing, and -unstable Feb 04 06:20:13 wow, beta system... seems like it would be..... buggy Feb 04 06:20:19 we are now celebrating the release of a new -stable, Debian Squeeze Feb 04 06:20:25 which is a once-every-4-years event Feb 04 06:20:33 I would probably go with testing Feb 04 06:20:39 yeah, debian testing is a nice system Feb 04 06:20:45 once every 4 years they release a new stable? Feb 04 06:20:47 I used Squeeze while it was testing for some time Feb 04 06:20:49 yeah Feb 04 06:20:53 the Stable is *very* stable Feb 04 06:21:04 and many people who use it use "backports" to add more modern versions of stuff Feb 04 06:21:05 oh. very stable lol Feb 04 06:21:18 or they're comfrotable enough with GNU tools to compile things they need up-to-date Feb 04 06:21:29 I like unstable, though Feb 04 06:21:34 it is actually a very stable OS Feb 04 06:21:39 I'm gonna stick with windows for a while tho :) Feb 04 06:21:46 (unless I go to OS X) Feb 04 06:23:23 so... want to join a up-and-coming tech blog/app review site? Feb 04 06:23:58 sure! Feb 04 06:24:24 sweet! take a look at http://awesomeappreviews.wordpress.com Feb 04 06:24:37 and email me at patrickappcreator@gmail.com Feb 04 06:24:55 as I need you're email to add u Feb 04 06:25:21 we have been up for 2-3 days and have already had 2 apps to review Feb 04 06:25:39 Question. Can I review Preware and optware stuff here? I want to say how awesome freeTether is Feb 04 06:25:52 sure Feb 04 06:25:56 cool Feb 04 06:25:59 it is an app review site Feb 04 06:26:15 and I'll probably make it a tech blog too Feb 04 06:26:21 do Save/Restore, Govnah and Impostah too :) Feb 04 06:26:22 if I get enough writers Feb 04 06:26:40 ok rwhitby, wanna join? lol Feb 04 06:26:53 PatrickC_Pre: as if I have spare time to write app reviews ... Feb 04 06:26:59 we could partner with PIC Feb 04 06:27:00 lol Feb 04 06:28:22 wgreenhouse: email me whenever you get the chance, and I'll add ya Feb 04 06:28:42 we can always use more writers (as its only me and one other person :) Feb 04 06:29:59 sent, PatrickC_Pre Feb 04 06:30:19 ok. sweet. I'll let you know when I get it Feb 04 06:30:53 I'll add ya to the writers page tomorrow sometime (when I get to a computer) Feb 04 06:31:19 PatrickC_Pre: I mentioned in my email that I'd like to review ClassicNote and freeTether. Feb 04 06:31:31 ok Feb 04 06:31:40 what's classicnote? Feb 04 06:31:41 I think I'll also review Poster (a WordPress app), perhaps from poster Feb 04 06:32:00 it is a cool app emulating old PalmOS memos Feb 04 06:32:16 they can be encrypted, categorized, and exported a bunch of formats Feb 04 06:32:24 makes very good use of global search too Feb 04 06:32:30 one of my basic daily apps Feb 04 06:32:49 ok sweet! sounds like you should make the blog pretty busy! lol Feb 04 06:33:22 going to add you now Feb 04 06:33:23 do you have a current wordpress account? Feb 04 06:33:31 no, I don't have an account on wordpress.com Feb 04 06:33:50 I have a self-hosted wordpress (work in progress) on my old desktop running debian, though Feb 04 06:34:19 ok. I'll add ya now. you'll get an email to set up an account from wordpres here in a few min Feb 04 06:34:26 k, cools Feb 04 06:34:26 oh a wordpres.org account? Feb 04 06:34:37 self-hosted Feb 04 06:34:46 as in, I installed wordpress source on a server Feb 04 06:34:48 with apache Feb 04 06:35:00 and mysql (bleh, mysql). Feb 04 06:35:26 sounds like fun! lol Feb 04 06:35:41 I haven't had time to learn mysql Feb 04 06:36:03 you don't really need to learn much of it to install wordpress on a server Feb 04 06:36:18 after you make a database and a user to access it, the wordpress php can pretty much take it from there Feb 04 06:36:21 well, you have to have a server first :p Feb 04 06:36:37 which could be a poor abandoned desktop, like this one was Feb 04 06:36:59 well the only poor abandoned computer I have has no wifi Feb 04 06:37:04 or internet period Feb 04 06:37:16 XP with servicepac2 Feb 04 06:37:22 so I can't tether with it Feb 04 06:37:33 :-/ Feb 04 06:37:49 yea I know Feb 04 06:38:08 technically, Pre can be server Feb 04 06:38:13 Lightppd and Nginx are available Feb 04 06:38:22 it is a Linux box after all. ;-) Feb 04 06:38:29 trying to navigate the wordpress admin site on the pre is not fun Feb 04 06:38:35 wait, my pre can be a server? Feb 04 06:38:40 yep. Feb 04 06:38:50 lighttpd is in Preware Feb 04 06:39:01 what happens if the wifi goes down (as its a developer device, no service) Feb 04 06:39:04 and lots of other web servers in optware Feb 04 06:39:38 same as what happens if you pull the ethernet cord out of a desktop server Feb 04 06:39:46 hehe Feb 04 06:39:59 lol, server goes down I presume Feb 04 06:40:02 yep Feb 04 06:40:08 (I'm still new to coding) Feb 04 06:40:10 no, server stays up. you just can't connect to it. Feb 04 06:40:21 I've always been more hardware, and less software Feb 04 06:40:32 till recently Feb 04 06:40:52 invite sent wgreenhouse Feb 04 06:47:35 PatrickC_Pre: successfully logged in to the blog from my Pre, using the Poster app Feb 04 06:47:46 which is awesome and much easier than using the web dashboard from your phone Feb 04 06:48:02 sweet. Feb 04 06:48:14 lol, well I'm gonna use the web dashboard (as I'm too cheap to but Poster :p ) Feb 04 06:50:35 wgreenhouse, I have changed you're roll to Author to allow you to opload video/pictures to the database for screenshots of apps Feb 04 06:51:31 thanks, PatrickC_Pre Feb 04 06:51:50 no problem Feb 04 06:52:37 email me what you want it to say under writers (take a look at mine and Arthur's in the writers page) Feb 04 06:52:46 I'll add it tomorrow sometime Feb 04 06:56:54 well. I gotta go to bed. nite all Feb 04 09:11:54 wgreenhouse, any luck with your netbook Feb 04 09:15:42 Jack87: yeah, reception/drivers/whatever still not great Feb 04 09:15:51 Pre tethering continuing to work fine though Feb 04 09:16:16 so you got to the antenna but still no go huh Feb 04 09:16:28 yeah Feb 04 09:17:00 monoprice has a n mini pcie wifi card for pretty cheap Feb 04 09:17:03 their site is down right now Feb 04 09:17:09 but ya.. might be something to consider Feb 04 09:17:15 i bet its the card and not the antetna Feb 04 09:17:27 if you were able to see the antenna was actually connected to the card Feb 04 09:18:01 yeah. ah well Feb 04 09:18:10 Pre works fine as an external wireless card :) Feb 04 09:18:42 did you try connecting it to the other antenna port on the card. cards usually have 2 sometimes 3 spots for antenna Feb 04 09:19:44 no, I didn't try that Feb 04 09:19:56 when I saw that it looked connected, I decided not to disturb it further Feb 04 09:19:58 maybe give that a shot Feb 04 09:20:14 hehe you take your netbook apart and dont tinker?? Feb 04 09:20:18 sheesh man! Feb 04 09:20:21 ;-) Feb 04 09:20:49 anyway im going to jump in the shower... good luck (if i were you i would mess with it some more) Feb 04 09:20:53 lol. I guess I should've taken the attitude that I've got nothing to lose Feb 04 09:20:54 thanks Feb 04 10:37:01 wgreenhouse, here it is http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10501&cs_id=1050103&p_id=6417&seq=1&format=2 Feb 04 16:25:04 hey peeps Feb 04 16:26:32 'ello Feb 04 16:29:03 I've added data about "Accessing linux" for Pre2 in the Discussion page of the Accessing Linux page. Feb 04 16:29:51 there's lots in the wiki that feels stale :( Feb 04 16:30:19 I still have a weird problem. Most incoming phone calls are showing the number but "Unknown Caller", even though the caller is known. Can anyone assist? Feb 04 16:30:23 does the / file system actually need to be remounted anymore or is it always rw? Feb 04 16:31:00 it's still ro by default Feb 04 16:31:30 why does it matter, though? it's a simple remount command Feb 04 16:31:50 because I've never had to remount to do anything Feb 04 16:32:03 * qwigqweg nods Feb 04 16:32:31 and the one time I saw that / was rw and tried to remount it as ro the phone froze a moment, then when I checked again it was rw Feb 04 16:33:13 this was after running a script that said it was remounting rw, but I wound up aborting the script so I thought I'd have to change / back Feb 04 16:33:32 hold on, I'll see what it is now Feb 04 16:33:49 I'm checking my phone now too. it was just really weird when it happened Feb 04 16:34:55 rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) Feb 04 16:35:32 and '/dev/mapper/store-root on / type ext3 (rw,data=ordered)' Feb 04 16:36:23 my phone has been rebooted since I did any tinkering Feb 04 16:37:31 just a moment. I need to install Terminate Feb 04 16:39:51 crap. my phone reboots. Feb 04 16:42:06 this sounds looks like my problem: http://www.dogizmo.com/gadget/caller-id-mis-matching-madness Feb 04 17:05:02 Terminus and Terminal won't work on Pre2. is there any other terminal? Feb 04 17:24:01 there is. rwhitby has one. I've been working on turning it into a more "normal" thing, but it does work. Feb 04 17:24:40 SecureShell is in the testing feeds, no? Feb 04 20:43:48 how's it goin? Feb 04 20:55:44 anyone need an app reviewed? Feb 04 21:02:32 does anyone know if other sites can use pics posted on precentral.net if they link back to P|C Feb 04 21:07:07 has Qt been ported to webos successfully? Feb 04 21:07:18 I don't think so Feb 04 21:07:36 drat. Feb 04 21:08:00 what all does Qt do? I haven't figured that out yet lol Feb 04 21:08:39 im kinda fuzzy myself. As I understand it, its a framework for UI stuff. Feb 04 21:08:54 ok kool Feb 04 21:09:04 do you need an app reviewed? lol Feb 04 21:09:17 so, you could write your code once. Then just rebuild on every platform that has a C compiler and the libraries compiled for that platform. Feb 04 21:09:35 an app reviewed? heh. maybe i should write it first. Feb 04 21:09:36 I just started an app review site and needs more apps (fee/paid) to review lol Feb 04 21:09:47 oh you haven't written one yet? Feb 04 21:09:51 did you try Ares? Feb 04 21:09:52 nope. Feb 04 21:10:11 no on the Ares, or no you haven't written one :p Feb 04 21:10:16 I'm confused lol Feb 04 21:10:18 I haven't dont anything for the phone yet. SDK apps dont count. Feb 04 21:10:32 what you mean they don't count? Feb 04 21:10:33 I have tinkered with SDK apps. nothing with the PDK at all. Feb 04 21:10:40 SDK apps are too easy. :) Feb 04 21:10:50 well, Ares is awesome and really easy lol Feb 04 21:10:55 I like easy :p Feb 04 21:11:04 its not hard haha Feb 04 21:11:09 My goal is to write a keepassX app for the Pre. Feb 04 21:11:27 keepassX? Feb 04 21:11:40 I want one, and ive been waiting. Noone has stepped up to the plate. So I figured I'd take a swing at it. Feb 04 21:11:55 what is it lol Feb 04 21:12:02 But the crypto libraries are diffucult to work with. Well, for my skill level anyway, Feb 04 21:12:08 its a password vault thing. Feb 04 21:12:14 oh ok Feb 04 21:12:33 google: keepass, keepassX Feb 04 21:12:37 I thought they had a keep password thingy in preware Feb 04 21:12:47 such as? Feb 04 21:12:53 lemme look Feb 04 21:13:29 and if it doesnt read keepass files, OR have a port for win & mac & linux, i wont touch it. Feb 04 21:14:07 keepass runs on windows; keepassX runs on linux, and OSX. i put my database file on dropbox. so it is always sync'd bweteen all my computers. Feb 04 21:14:15 ok, well I use SecuStore Feb 04 21:14:26 sweet Feb 04 21:14:50 that's the main one I see Feb 04 21:15:06 Alpha for PC and mac. no mention of linux. (but an OSX port might lead to a quick linux port) Feb 04 21:15:41 my friends use lastpass. i wont use that cuz my file is under their control. I dont have a local copy of it. blech. Feb 04 21:16:10 I don't need a big program to sync all my passwords with a server, so SecuStore gives me what I need Feb 04 21:16:19 yea, no local copies is dumb lol Feb 04 21:17:01 and secustore seems to run on java. that i dont like either. too slow fo rmy tastes Feb 04 21:17:19 it seems pretty fast on my Sprint Pixi Feb 04 21:17:46 i need something that runs on all my platforms. win, osx, linux, webos Feb 04 21:18:04 you run win, osx, and linux? Feb 04 21:18:09 wow Feb 04 21:18:11 yep Feb 04 21:18:22 what is the main machine? Feb 04 21:18:48 at work: OSX, at home: linux. but i game on windows. so i need access to my password everywhere Feb 04 21:19:03 sweet Feb 04 21:19:22 I need to get an osx machine (without paying $1000 for it lol) Feb 04 21:19:46 I would like a Mac Mini please Mr. Steve, and for only $200 please :) Feb 04 21:19:46 lol Feb 04 21:21:56 PatrickC_Pre: learn2hackintosh Feb 04 21:22:06 i have snow leopard running on my quadcore qq6000 Feb 04 21:22:12 or was it 6600 Feb 04 21:22:16 slightly older proc, but a beast Feb 04 21:22:24 I don't want to, as I need osx to make an app for a church Feb 04 21:22:25 vanillia install for my mobo+cpu Feb 04 21:22:35 all you need is a valid copy of snow leopard.. you can afford to pay for at least the software right? Feb 04 21:22:38 and don't want to break the stupid EULA Feb 04 21:22:49 i don't think you break the eula if you pay for it Feb 04 21:22:55 i would double check Feb 04 21:22:55 I can afford the software, but I'm not gonna break the EULA Feb 04 21:23:00 I'll post a link Feb 04 21:23:35 ShadeS: im pretty sure PatrickC_Pre is right. If you install OSX on something other than apple hardware you are violating the EULA. Feb 04 21:23:46 I have not read this specifically, but i have read articles detailing just that. Feb 04 21:24:44 * PatrickC_Pre looking it up for a valid link Feb 04 21:25:19 just because something is in an EULA doesn't make it legally binding. If you clicked OKAY and the EULA said you must give up your first born child, this will not stand up in court.... Feb 04 21:26:14 true, but would you want to even chance a court battle? even if you would win? especially for a non-profit religious organization? Feb 04 21:26:51 http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx106.pdf Feb 04 21:27:01 suing a church is bad pr Feb 04 21:27:28 section 2 I think Feb 04 21:27:44 "May not be installed on a non-Apple branded computer) Feb 04 21:28:25 but using software illegally is bad publicity for the church Feb 04 21:28:28 ShadeS: we're not talking about if its right or wrong. just what the EULA states. Feb 04 21:28:45 cobalt027: yeah I suppose Feb 04 21:28:50 as bad PR it would be for apple. a church should not knowingly violate a EULA. thats bad PR for them. :) Feb 04 21:29:13 I for one, think the EULA is nonesense. Feb 04 21:29:20 I bought the software. i can do with it what i please. Feb 04 21:29:25 but thats a moot point. Feb 04 21:29:39 I have talked with the church, and we are just gonna do the app on Android and Webos till we get a mac Feb 04 21:29:47 I think the EULA is dumb too Feb 04 21:29:55 but what else can we do? Feb 04 21:30:29 (besides hack into Apple and change it, which would get us into more trouble then violating the EULA Lol) Feb 04 21:30:43 so that's outta the question :) Feb 04 21:34:23 I got to go (school calls :/) Feb 04 21:47:13 it's interesting when people think that they can dictate the rights of use of something that they didn't create ... Feb 04 21:49:23 what's more interesting how readily we tolerate manufacturers continuing to assert their "rights" long after sale Feb 04 21:49:34 *what's more interesting is Feb 04 21:50:30 the whole argument is interesting. Feb 04 21:51:55 for instance, if pioneer came out with a really nice head unit that you could only get with a ford. and then tried to sue me if I took it out of my ford and put it in my volvo.. Feb 04 21:52:02 noone would stand for that Feb 04 21:53:38 and yet the people don't make the government change the laws to outlaw that control by the manufacturers Feb 04 21:53:54 so it seems the people in general are happy with the current situation Feb 04 21:54:22 rwhitby: in a sense, they do. many EULAs are held invalid as pertains to consumers, once a software maker tries to use them to enforce some silly right Feb 04 21:54:36 just look at how few people will pay full price for a phone rather than get a controlled subsidised carrier version Feb 04 21:54:56 the consumers invite the companies to impose EULAs on them, and lap it up Feb 04 21:55:22 rwhitby: I don't think the EULA situation has much to do with the phone carrier subsidy situation, to judge by computer software Feb 04 21:55:25 average consumers are dumb and politicians work in the interests of companies, news at 11 Feb 04 21:55:49 Loudergood: can't blame the companies for that situation then Feb 04 21:55:51 actually I see a parallel with the pre-installed OS situation Feb 04 21:56:03 rwhitby: er, what? Feb 04 21:56:05 of course you can Feb 04 21:56:11 blame the dumb consumers and corrupt representatives Feb 04 21:56:34 * wgreenhouse does blame the companies, and prefers to vote with his dollars Feb 04 21:56:36 I'd wager a large percentage of people aren't even aware that you can change what's installed for the OS Feb 04 21:56:40 companies have a responsibility to make profit for the shareholders whoever they can within the letter of the law Feb 04 21:57:09 if they don't use every legal means available to them, then they are not carrying out their obligation to their shareholders Feb 04 21:57:16 rwhitby: and arguably, EULAs that create lots of expensive litigation, like Apple's don't do that Feb 04 21:57:33 it's up to the people to set the bounds, using legislation created by the people's representatives in government Feb 04 21:57:37 the obligation to seek short-run profits doesn't justify every silly corporate decision Feb 04 21:58:01 and many EULAs are, to be frank, quite silly Feb 04 21:58:06 and not really connected at all to revenue Feb 04 21:58:20 most EULAs are in place to allow the real price of the item to be subsidised Feb 04 21:58:42 consumers would never buy the items at full price Feb 04 21:58:42 most EULAs are in place to satisfy the conservative and risk-averse sentiments of IP lawyers Feb 04 21:59:10 rwhitby: there's no such thing as the "full price" of a commercial closed-source operating system Feb 04 21:59:11 wgreenhouse: no, it's all about money, not IP lawyers. EULAs are in place to maximise revenue and minimise costs. Feb 04 21:59:13 the concept doesn't exist Feb 04 21:59:30 you are aware that most PC software comes with EULAs that in no way subsidizes it? Feb 04 21:59:36 sure there is. cost of development divided by number of units sold, with profit margin added. Feb 04 21:59:45 wgreenhouse, maybe not for an OS, but there is for hardware Feb 04 21:59:50 rwhitby: *facepalm* no company tracks marginal cost Feb 04 22:00:03 rwhitby: furthermore, the marginal cost of the nth copy of Windows would be negligible Feb 04 22:00:09 even compared to the OEM price Feb 04 22:00:16 I would also be astonished if any standalone hardware came with an EULA Feb 04 22:00:18 they're actually overcharging, not subsidizing Feb 04 22:01:17 srsly, if you actually open the books of some software company, marginal cost is not a statistic you are going to find Feb 04 22:01:35 they don't even know what it is, much less how much they are subsidizing the consumer from "full price" Feb 04 22:02:01 so, if you don't want to agree to an EULA, use open source software. otherwise, comply with the constraints placed on the software by the creator of the software, or write your own competitive product. Feb 04 22:02:13 Most EULAs are a bunch of BS anyway.. "You can only use this software in a specific manner, or you can't sue us! Also, you can't sue us anyway. Because we said so. You must agree to waive all your rights to use this product" Feb 04 22:02:16 I do use open source software. Feb 04 22:02:27 there is no god-given right to use software any way you please Feb 04 22:02:49 if there was, then the GPL would not be valid Feb 04 22:03:15 rwhitby: fair enough, and I agree--copyright law does have some moral validity Feb 04 22:03:23 well....they GPL lets you do that...as long as you don't redistribute it Feb 04 22:03:25 but that's different from uncritically accepting every EULA that comes along Feb 04 22:03:55 and so, surprise, many of them turn out not to be valid when challenged Feb 04 22:03:56 you can't uphold a GPL authors right to restrict how you use software, and not uphold a different authors right to restrict how use use commercial software Feb 04 22:03:57 now if you want to argue that redistribution IS use, that's different. Feb 04 22:04:15 rwhitby: what matters is the actual content of the restrictions, obviously Feb 04 22:04:20 not the idea of restriction in the abstract Feb 04 22:04:33 no GPL software contains a kill switch to brick the device it runs on, for example Feb 04 22:05:08 (if it did, the many GPL-violating Android phone manufacturers would be selling bricks!) Feb 04 22:05:13 well, if you agree to that restriction, then you're stupid. doesn't mean the restriction can't exist. Feb 04 22:05:39 it may or may not be illegal however, and that's where it gets muddy Feb 04 22:05:58 of course whenever you bring in the law, it always gets muddy Feb 04 22:06:00 sure, if a restriction is illegal, then you use the law to override it Feb 04 22:06:01 rwhitby: that attitude got us fake medicines and formaldehyde milk. that's why I can't go along with this Ayn Rand fantasy. Feb 04 22:06:50 wgreenhouse: sure, but it's not black and white. you can't just ignore EULAs out of hand as some people think they can on "moral" grounds (when the grounds they are using are just convenience for them individually) Feb 04 22:07:20 that I can agree with, those people tend to do the same to copyright as well Feb 04 22:07:25 rwhitby: I agree, except I don't think morality factors into it, really. Feb 04 22:07:34 a EULA-violator isn't a criminal, they're just taking the risk of being sued Feb 04 22:07:42 and they do have the right to do that Feb 04 22:08:03 I respect someone who says "I'm deciding to break this EULA contract, and I will accept the consequences if caught". I don't respect someone who says "I'm going to say that this EULA is invalid, simply because I personally find it convenient to break it" Feb 04 22:08:42 fair enough. and I don't respect either of those people as much as the person who decides to uninstall the EULAed software and never look at it again Feb 04 22:09:04 agreed, that third person is the only one who actually causes change Feb 04 22:09:09 mobile is troubling because there's no clear way to do that, even though you have a piece of tangible physical property--assume the case of buying an unlocked unsubsidized phone Feb 04 22:09:11 yeah Feb 04 22:09:18 jailbreaker movements can't cause much change Feb 04 22:09:55 so far, not even Android users can really replace their OS without it being a very fiddly process Feb 04 22:10:31 don't forget openmoko on the pre ;) Feb 04 22:10:39 Loudergood: oh wow really? Feb 04 22:10:43 that works? Feb 04 22:10:47 AOSP is free and open. Every single deployment of "Android" (the commercial product, not the open source project) has some non-free parts. Feb 04 22:10:55 I'm not really sure about that Feb 04 22:11:45 Even the most "open" Android phones from Google directly have closed programs on them that you cannot rebuild from source. Feb 04 22:11:51 rwhitby: yes. furthermore, "Android" (or "Android with Google," i.e. the OEM releases) tolerates being pretty well locked down against replacement with a free and open AOSP distro Feb 04 22:12:12 and if you succeed, Google might sue you anyway Feb 04 22:14:40 looks like it was SHR which was ported Feb 04 22:14:56 with a dualboot setup apparently..I may have to try this. Feb 04 22:15:01 wow Feb 04 22:15:03 kinky. Feb 04 22:15:17 * wgreenhouse wonders what a boot-loader menu on a Pre looks like Feb 04 22:15:28 http://vimeo.com/18744450 Feb 04 22:17:05 it's an init-switcher menu, not a boot-loader menu Feb 04 22:18:05 * rwhitby used to work on SHR in the Openmoko days Feb 04 22:35:25 * rwhitby bbl Feb 05 01:00:26 rwhitby: well, all "god-given" rights if you will, can be overridden by men with courts, prisons, and guns :) also known as the "rule of law" Feb 05 01:02:25 rwhitby: rather than say you have no god given right to do what you want with software, I say that we have created arbitrary restrictions on your rights for what we believe is a greater good (that of enriching the public domain actually,in the US at least) but that greater good has been subverted by the people we've elected to represent us, here in the US anyway Feb 05 01:03:42 and subverted by a slow indoctrination of humanity with phrases like "intellectual property" and "piracy" Feb 05 01:04:34 true, destinal--the ostensible purpose for US copyright and patent law is to grant a temporary monopoly to eventually further develop and contribute to the public domain of art, science, and technology Feb 05 01:04:48 allowing such monopoly rights to continue indefinitely stifles that purpose Feb 05 01:04:55 wgreenhouse: exactly Feb 05 01:05:05 profit-maximization is just a means to an end Feb 05 01:05:56 the purpose of these monopolies is not to grant the creator an indefinite right to monpoly profits, but to give him a finite right to monopoly profits to encourage innovating Feb 05 01:06:11 er, innovation Feb 05 01:08:06 wgreenhouse: right, the framers of the US constitution envisioned a trade, people temporarily give up the valuable right to copy to gain access to worthwhile works that they could then copy. not because it would "create jobs" :) Feb 05 01:08:33 if one wants to keep one's creations totally secret, the vehicle for that is trade secret law Feb 05 01:08:43 and it is, of course, somewhat incompatible with sale to the general public Feb 05 01:12:21 wgreenhouse: in fact, you could argue that copyright was originally designed to create a world with as much unauthorized copying as possible (by giving up ~15 years on a new work that you had to be authorized) Feb 05 01:12:47 in the US at least. can't say the same for britain and other places Feb 05 01:14:10 well, I know British copyright was very weak until it started being strengthened to protect the interests of British authors Feb 05 01:14:23 at first it was weak, to protect British publishers and translators of foreign works Feb 05 01:15:13 the original expirations on copyright to me just seemed to be there so that while people cared, you owned all rights to it, but after interest would have died, it was gone Feb 05 01:15:35 SineOtter: they were way shorter than life expectancy, much more like patents Feb 05 01:16:00 now it's become the protection for mickey mouse Feb 05 01:16:03 well yeah. I mean look at most modern books: no one cares about them 15 years down the line Feb 05 01:16:08 after all, this encourages an author to create yet more new works, not to rest on their laurels Feb 05 01:16:11 it's only very few that gain that kind of "classic" status Feb 05 01:16:30 but now laws have been changed to protect those "classic" status items even though they're a tiny tiny percentage Feb 05 01:16:58 so much of our culture under legal lock & key - it's really staggering (and to me, staggering how few people seem to care) Feb 05 01:17:21 most people don't care about anything though Feb 05 01:17:36 I don't really notice it, until I'm browsing something like project Gutenberg Feb 05 01:17:42 no they really don't Feb 05 01:18:00 unless someone tells them something scary about it Feb 05 01:18:01 a Texas study found that even after posting the calorie counts of various fast foods right next to the prices, no one changed their eating habits Feb 05 01:18:11 what's sad is that the date line on Gutenberg never moves forward Feb 05 01:18:13 never has Feb 05 01:18:22 they'd still just eat the calorie bomb tacos that were like 1200 calories each Feb 05 01:18:37 yeah, we could be excited waiting for release dates ;) Feb 05 01:19:09 I think people do care about the "intellectual property Feb 05 01:19:11 " situation Feb 05 01:19:20 that's why there's so much "piracy" and so many mashups Feb 05 01:19:22 the thought of 1200 calorie tacos makes me sick to my stomach :( Feb 05 01:19:27 people implicitly resist this, w/o knowing why Feb 05 01:19:30 I always try to trace problems back to education and mental health Feb 05 01:20:24 because either they don't know any better(education) or they don't care(mental health) Feb 05 01:20:26 don't get me started on education :( Feb 05 01:20:28 wgreenhouse: I think both terms were created by cartels of copyright holders to convince people that copyright infringement was like theft Feb 05 01:20:33 which it isn't at all Feb 05 01:20:39 "you wouldn't download a car" Feb 05 01:20:45 actually... Feb 05 01:21:11 I drive a 1988 volvo...you bet I'd think about downloading a car Feb 05 01:21:27 :) 3d printer revolution may yet make it possible Feb 05 01:21:28 hopefully there'd be an open source one by now Feb 05 01:21:58 yeah, those are in my kind of want but don't need category right now, sitting right next to tablets Feb 05 01:22:13 yeah, but if you could print a car, you know that lobbyists would be up in arms pretty quick Feb 05 01:22:24 thing is, a car isn't an expression, so you can make your own ferrari (as long as you avoid trademarked logos) and suffer no legal problems Feb 05 01:22:25 "unsafe! no quality testing! kills babies!" Feb 05 01:22:49 * wgreenhouse wants to print a GPLed car Feb 05 01:23:17 heh, the tux gt40 Feb 05 01:33:30 hay guys **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 05 02:59:57 2011