**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Mar 29 02:59:57 2011 Mar 29 04:28:34 RagingMind: i don't see your question re:xterm binaries vs xterm answered Mar 29 04:28:48 RagingMind: the xterm package depeneds on the xterm binary package Mar 29 04:28:55 xterm package just runs the binaries from the xterm binary package Mar 29 04:29:18 the organization is to decouple what gets a launcher icon and what binaries you have installed Mar 29 04:29:45 so that if we had a window manager launcher icon, but also pidgin/xterm/etc packages, you could pick which got launcher icons and which you just wanted the software for Mar 29 04:29:49 (and would run however you wanted) Mar 29 04:39:14 dtzWill, I figured it out :) thanks Mar 29 04:40:18 RagingMind: kk, good. :) Mar 29 04:43:42 what was the blocker to having a debian chroot to install things into before? or to installing other x packages? Mar 29 04:50:22 RagingMind: a debian chroot is not something that we can ask a normal Preware user to countenance. Mar 29 04:51:22 I suppose. mostly there's part of a discussion floating around in my head that I'm trying to remember more of Mar 29 04:52:16 I'm currently quite happy with my chroot of debian :) Mar 29 04:53:00 I might not be comfortable putting together a build environment to build stuff for my pre, but I'm quite happy with apt-get Mar 29 05:09:20 RagingMind: have you heard of shr? Mar 29 05:13:31 morning Saij Mar 29 05:14:23 how goes man :) Mar 29 05:14:30 Thanks for the tip, got a 25$ prepaid SIM today Mar 29 05:14:48 Forgot to wait until I was in a WiFi network to sync and it raped through that 25$ pretty fast restoring my profile :'( Mar 29 05:15:05 Saij...yuck Mar 29 05:15:26 ya, that $10 Sim + WiFi is da bomb Mar 29 05:15:34 Haha, oh well. I'm back on a reflashed Pixi+ with a working Palm Profile, so I'm very happy. I've got most of my patches back now Mar 29 05:15:46 Store guy refused to give me anything lower than 25$ :\ Mar 29 05:16:46 Yeah, ATT won't let you go without a 25$ one :/ Mar 29 05:17:38 Oh well, I suppose it was worth it. Now I just have to decide whether or not I purchase paid apps or not :C Mar 29 05:18:08 And I don't mean pirate, I mean I just straight up avoid paid apps Mar 29 05:18:56 I only bought 2 so far...in 2yrs Mar 29 05:18:58 I'm rather worried about the Pixi+ in the wake of the new harware and webOS 2.x Mar 29 05:19:08 What ones did you buy if I may ask Mar 29 05:20:18 Random Q, what are the default package feeds for PreWare. I enabled all of them and 9k+ feeds is destroying my poor pixi when PreWare loads :P Mar 29 05:22:04 * ka6sox-home forgets...he only has optware/testing/kernels on his devices. Mar 29 05:22:21 ahh, yes, devving :P Mar 29 05:23:14 Saij, it really depends on what you are doing as you said. Mar 29 05:23:57 I've bought a few. It really just depends on if the paid apps/paid versions are good enough to warrant any purchase! Mar 29 05:24:04 end-usering mostly Mar 29 05:25:00 turned off palm-catalog and catalog-updates Mar 29 05:25:15 optware is on, but i've no idea what that is Mar 29 05:26:00 palm-beta & updates are on. What are those? Mar 29 05:26:11 palm-web & updates are on Mar 29 05:26:20 precentral & precentral-themes are on Mar 29 05:27:49 * ka6sox-home can't comment on that as he is not qualified. Mar 29 05:28:34 Palm-beta and Palm-web are both the Palm provided beta app and web app feeds Mar 29 05:28:43 I normally turn them off and only use AppScoop to browse them Mar 29 05:28:50 are those handled in the default app store program? Mar 29 05:29:02 Saij: turn off the theme feeds for a start Mar 29 05:29:04 Get AppScoop from the App Catalog and use that Mar 29 05:29:36 if you're really stuck for memory, turn off all the palm feeds Mar 29 05:30:33 ah christ, app catalog is broken again Mar 29 05:30:43 The action could not be completed. Try again later Mar 29 05:31:06 restart Luna to see Mar 29 05:32:38 Yeah the theme feeds were massive. I guess I'll live with the one I got installed when they were on Mar 29 05:33:09 ... I think I killed my palm profile again Mar 29 05:33:35 killed it? Mar 29 05:33:45 Yeah, I can't app catalog nor Backup -> Palm Profile Mar 29 05:33:48 it won't log me in Mar 29 05:35:49 is it because i did a java restart from PreWare? Mar 29 05:36:10 why did you do a java restart? Mar 29 05:36:30 I had to to activate the HomeBrew Java service used for the MPlayer Wrapper Mar 29 05:38:41 I need a large manual so I can know what not to do Mar 29 05:39:02 I'd just at this point restart @_@ Mar 29 05:39:11 It must be somewhat working as a forced backup succeeded, but i still cant app-catalog nor Palm Profle login Mar 29 05:39:24 Yeah, I'm thinking that is best. No idea what i did this time :'( Mar 29 05:40:06 does anyone know off-hand about how fast the Pixi+ can download stuff over wifi with the unlocked donwload manager patch? Mar 29 05:40:17 or how fast your device does Mar 29 05:40:27 just so I've soem comparisons Mar 29 05:40:42 my roomate's Droid Incredible can pull in around 13Mbps or so Mar 29 05:40:55 I think the best I saw so far was about 600kbps Mar 29 05:41:01 Dunno! Mar 29 05:41:14 Because our home internet is only about uh, 3Mbps. XD Mar 29 05:41:23 haha oh man! I'd freak out Mar 29 05:41:31 I'm pissed when it goes below 15mbps Mar 29 05:41:48 Typically we see around 25-32Mbps down, and I find that slow Mar 29 05:41:57 I think our "average" speed is about 2.4-2.8 or so Mar 29 05:42:05 Is that the tier you're paying for? Mar 29 05:42:18 well, is your latency/upload speed good? Mar 29 05:42:23 because if so, then its probably fine Mar 29 05:42:31 Yeah, I suppose? We're paying for the 3Mbps tier. Mar 29 05:42:34 And nope! XD Mar 29 05:42:36 our latency is terrible, and our upload is capped at 1Mbps Mar 29 05:42:44 Let me see what SamKnows says Mar 29 05:42:49 Are you Euro? Mar 29 05:43:05 Nope. California! Mar 29 05:43:15 Ah, what provider then? Mar 29 05:43:30 LA county. One of the largest metropolitan areas in the US, and we have our choice of shitty, shit, or really bad! Mar 29 05:43:35 Verizon DSL. Mar 29 05:44:08 No FIOS there yet? I miss being back home in NJ Mar 29 05:44:13 Optimum ONline there was so awesome Mar 29 05:44:22 Nupe. Verizon won't roll out FiOS here. Mar 29 05:44:29 I was getting 6MbpsX6Mbps with 10ms latency Mar 29 05:44:43 I rather that over Time Warner here with its latency sometimes upwards of 250ms! Mar 29 05:44:49 Here either in Rochester Mar 29 05:44:50 oh well Mar 29 05:45:08 Let's see… 2.8Mbps average over the last week, 30ms ping times, but here's the kicker! Mar 29 05:45:19 The DNS fails to respond upwards of 10% of the time Mar 29 05:45:27 so you just get booted offline? Mar 29 05:45:32 And packet loss will spike upwards of 8% from time to time Mar 29 05:45:41 Nah, you just have to try like 2-3 times sometimes to get sites to load Mar 29 05:45:44 yeah Mar 29 05:45:55 is that physical line quality issueas, or their back-end stuff? Mar 29 05:46:12 for us, we get sub 10Mbps speeds with +250ms latency when it rains Mar 29 05:46:20 Probably back end stuff Mar 29 05:46:24 our cable junction box outside is below-grade and water pools in it. Awesome design Mar 29 05:46:47 Well, at least if we move over to cable we won't have that problem. Mar 29 05:46:56 Since it feeds off the telephone pole in the backyard. Mar 29 05:47:03 Ahh, very cool. Mar 29 05:48:00 This pixi is pretty awesome so far Mar 29 05:48:08 The Pixi is real nice, yeah. Mar 29 05:48:13 Too bad it won't see 2.0 though. Mar 29 05:48:13 Just wish it had a bit more oomph, or was compatible with the Pre apps :c I hate that Mar 29 05:48:23 I can't believe they promised 2.x, then backed out Mar 29 05:48:31 Well, not that it would really matter. The Pre+ technically won't ever see it officially either. Mar 29 05:49:17 Even though the Euro ones have it officially? Mar 29 05:49:36 1 Euro carrier who has it because they begged HP for it Mar 29 05:50:03 and will in all likelihood only see 2.1 and not 2.2 or later Mar 29 05:50:21 pretty weak. It should be available for all carriers Mar 29 05:50:45 eh Mar 29 05:51:02 ? Mar 29 05:51:10 Not fond of 2.x? Mar 29 05:51:26 I don't really know much about it to be honest, other than it has flash support which is always a bonus Mar 29 05:51:37 like someone had said, Palm missed an entire generation of devices, so compared to the Veer/Pre3, the current devices are closer to like, an iPhone 3G when the iPhone 5 is on the horizon, you know? Mar 29 05:51:53 No, but I can see why the choice was made and I don't like it, but I agree with it Mar 29 05:52:38 Is the hardawre really that antiquated? Mar 29 05:53:06 Compared to the stuff that's coming out this summer? Yeah Mar 29 05:53:45 Veer is an 800mhz Snapdragon, the Pre3 is a 1.4ghz beast, and the Touchpad is shipping with a dual core 1.2ghz chip Mar 29 05:54:15 The Pre2 is 1ghz, and is probably the oldest hardware that will see continued updates for 2.2 and beyond Mar 29 05:55:17 so it gets kind of clear that when you've got the Pre+, which runs at 500mhz most of the time, and the Pixi that has an older 600mhz chip in it… That it's just kind of diminishing returns Mar 29 05:56:25 Ahh, yeah, very true Mar 29 05:58:48 Does 2.x have any other real advantages over 1.4.5 or? Mar 29 06:00:47 Javascript services, proper hybrid app support, overhauled UI Mar 29 06:01:09 anyways, g'night Mar 29 06:02:44 ...and there's "Just type" :) Mar 29 06:03:06 Doesn't 1.4.5 have that? I can type from the screen and get apps or web results Mar 29 06:03:14 or is Just Type a different technology? Mar 29 06:03:42 i thought it was specific to 2.x Mar 29 06:03:43 that's universal search, just type is like universal search + a lot Mar 29 06:04:29 plus "this one goes to 11" Mar 29 06:04:35 haha :P Mar 29 06:04:45 I guess I'd have to try it to understand what is better Mar 29 06:12:27 anyone using wIRC? Mar 29 06:12:45 Saij: I use it a lot Mar 29 06:12:58 it seems really nice overall Mar 29 06:13:50 yeah. I use it with ZNC (IRC bouncer for Linux) so that I can stay multiply logged in on my PCs and Pre+ Mar 29 06:14:05 I also use Bitlbee for instant messaging, so the ZNC bouncer passes that on to wIRC as well when I need it to Mar 29 06:14:41 Whoa, advanced :P Mar 29 06:15:26 I'm mostly just AIM+MSN Mar 29 06:16:17 bitlbee is a simple service that pumps AIM, MSN, Gtalk/Jabber, Yahoo, Twitter and whatever else into a special IRC server Mar 29 06:16:22 so you can use them with IRC clients Mar 29 06:16:33 2.1 has significant under-the-hood advantages over 1.4.5 Mar 29 06:16:48 @wgreenhouse SOunds pretty cool Mar 29 06:17:21 @rwhitby I heard similar, but it hasn't been quanitfied. I'd be interested in seeing performance on the same hardware platform of an app in 1.4.5 vs 2.x Mar 29 06:18:16 Saij: to put it bluntly, WebOS Internals won't be doing any more development for 1.4.5 devices. Everything is 2.x, and it will only be by serendipity that any new stuff also works on 1.4.5 Mar 29 06:19:09 if you have a Pre+, it's a no-brainer, install 2.1 Mar 29 06:19:20 rwhitby: hmm... is there benchmarking software for webOS? I mean, it seems easy enough to benchmark the Linux/openembedded part, but is there any good way to benchmark the JS side of things? Mar 29 06:19:22 Unforunately, I've a Pixi+, the bastard child of webOS Mar 29 06:19:59 Right. Forget about 2.x then. You might get some games that were written for the Veer if you're lucky. Mar 29 06:20:24 It was 38$ and I like the form-factor better than the slider of Pre/Veer Mar 29 06:20:51 I may have to ditch it for a Veer later if WebOS 2.x is really that much better. Is the veer arm6? Mar 29 06:21:35 Saij: MSM7230 800 MHz ARMv7 Mar 29 06:21:57 Ah okay, so the same architecture as the Pre etc right Mar 29 06:22:47 Pre etc are ARMv7 also, but very different cores (TI OMAP3xxx) Mar 29 06:23:32 2.1 is a bit buggy but it's way faster and smoother tha 1.4.5 Mar 29 06:23:45 pretty happy about that Mar 29 06:23:52 Have you upgraded on a PRe+ or something? Mar 29 06:24:06 yeah sprint pre+ frankenre Mar 29 06:24:07 pre Mar 29 06:24:10 frankepre Mar 29 06:24:11 bah Mar 29 06:24:13 frankenpre Mar 29 06:24:20 haha nice, must be pretty sweet :) Mar 29 06:24:22 not by choice though Mar 29 06:24:30 wgreenhouse: you can run sunspider or something for js benchmarks Mar 29 06:24:31 yeah, overclocked, it's a lot like a regular Pre 2 Mar 29 06:24:34 hadrware failure? Mar 29 06:24:54 and there's no more out of memory problems, the leaks seem to be gone Mar 29 06:25:09 yeah, crushed screen on the handbreak of my car Mar 29 06:25:15 ouch Mar 29 06:25:16 tragedy Mar 29 06:25:25 after nearly 2 years, it had a good run Mar 29 06:25:27 rwhitby: mmm nice Mar 29 06:25:44 transplanting the comm board into the Verizon Pre Plus was pretty simple though Mar 29 06:25:55 Yeah, I've heard it is rather straightforward. Mar 29 06:25:56 that extra memory is pretty damn sweet Mar 29 06:26:02 except for the slide tabs Mar 29 06:26:09 apparently everybody screws that up Mar 29 06:26:23 I've not gotten any out of memory errors yet. With the 806mhz UberKernel this thing is pretty sweet Mar 29 06:26:38 You went from 256 to 512 with that upgrade right? Mar 29 06:26:40 it'll stil happen with 1.4.5 Mar 29 06:26:43 just longer Mar 29 06:26:45 right Mar 29 06:26:49 double the ram and storage Mar 29 06:26:56 hot damn :) Mar 29 06:26:59 which is what I wanted over a year ago Mar 29 06:27:12 like near the end of 2009 Mar 29 06:27:20 This thing is just a wifi toy for now, its not my phone. I use it for emails and such when i'm on campus Mar 29 06:27:20 when the Plus came out on Verizon Mar 29 06:27:31 I fucking cursed Sprint for not having it Mar 29 06:27:32 man, I've got to upgrade my ATT pre+ to 2.1 Mar 29 06:27:33 So its your phone then? Mar 29 06:27:38 do it! Mar 29 06:27:55 Do you like it ? Mar 29 06:28:11 me sprint pre+ is a wifi toy now as well Mar 29 06:28:12 I kinda love it, but its not perfect Mar 29 06:28:28 I've moved to an EVO for now out of necessity and it's not that bad Mar 29 06:28:36 I'm fnding more and more I should have got a Pre+ because this thing will never get 2.x and doesn't have all the apps the pre+ can Mar 29 06:28:44 dude, run 2.1 on a bigger device Mar 29 06:28:50 I'm straight up dumb-phone only Mar 29 06:28:52 * wgreenhouse actually uses his pre+ as a phone Mar 29 06:28:57 Can't stand smartphones for phone use Mar 29 06:29:21 All i want my phone to do is have great call quality, great battery life, and get text messages Mar 29 06:29:22 that is ALL Mar 29 06:29:34 those device are cheap now, I don't blame you for getting one to play with Mar 29 06:29:50 the ATTs ones are expensive still, but VZW/Sprint are going for about 45$ NEW Mar 29 06:29:55 mine is rather beat :\ Mar 29 06:30:00 the Pre+ is one of the saner smartphones to actually use as a phone--battery life could be better, but the phone features don't feel tacked on at the end Mar 29 06:30:06 well, there's the Samsung Restore Mar 29 06:30:14 it's cheap and can do that pretty well Mar 29 06:30:21 my sister is thinking about getting it Mar 29 06:30:23 Nice Mar 29 06:30:27 bhuey: that's the phone made out of recycled stuffs, right? Mar 29 06:30:30 I saw the HTC dumphone today, it was nice Mar 29 06:30:36 yeah, something like that Mar 29 06:30:40 Yeh. I love the Blue Earth (solarpanel) Mar 29 06:30:48 but it's got EVDO rev 0 instead of being a 1xRTT only phone Mar 29 06:30:52 wrong 3g bands though, and ATT supposedly is migrating to 3g for voice soon Mar 29 06:30:53 hugh improvement Mar 29 06:31:00 bhuey: yeah, I played with one the last time I was in an at&t store. felt solid as all get-out Mar 29 06:31:12 oh really ? yeah, she's thinking about getting it Mar 29 06:31:14 Yeah, but touch-slate, my least favorite form factor Mar 29 06:31:23 Yeah, if you don't mind that form factor, its great Mar 29 06:31:36 Sense UI, slick, responsive, fast, nice enough screen Mar 29 06:31:48 she's on a pretty primitive phone now and it's not going to be friendly for text messaging Mar 29 06:32:27 What about a cheapo dumphone with full kyeboard? Mar 29 06:32:43 bhuey: yeah, as far as dumb phones in the store back in january, I liked that one, and I liked the current Sharp messaging phone, which has a design like their old pagers Mar 29 06:32:45 forget the name Mar 29 06:35:08 pre+ really does make a pretty good actual phone, though. sometimes I'll be on the bus or on my bike, listening to a podcast, and I'll get a call, answer it with the headset's button, talk for a few minutes, hang up--and my podcast just starts playing again automatically Mar 29 06:35:10 smart as paint Mar 29 06:35:35 Hm, that does sound nice Mar 29 06:35:45 I don't want a dataplan though, I'm on a family plan currently Mar 29 06:35:54 so dumbphone city, which I hoenstly don't mind. Mar 29 06:37:56 yeah, sister has the same problem Mar 29 06:38:06 What do you all think HP/Palm's suprise will be for Pixi owners :\ Mar 29 06:38:11 but EVDO rev 0 a big upgrade for it Mar 29 06:38:12 her Mar 29 06:38:17 I can't wait for her to do that Mar 29 06:38:22 she uses data or is EVDO for voice? Mar 29 06:38:29 since I can experiment making into a modem for her Mar 29 06:38:34 whoa Mar 29 06:38:36 hacky :P Mar 29 06:38:42 of course Mar 29 06:38:51 you're a dev then too? Mar 29 06:39:09 not a webos dev but yeah software engineer Mar 29 06:39:35 that recognizes the power and elegance of the platform Mar 29 06:39:48 ahh okay Mar 29 06:39:56 but my android experience has been good and is growin Mar 29 06:39:58 growing Mar 29 06:39:58 <- end-user/tweaker Mar 29 06:40:06 Yeah, android seems to be taking over Mar 29 06:40:09 yeah basically the same as you Mar 29 06:40:10 I'm really interestedin Bada Mar 29 06:40:19 android has pretty much won Mar 29 06:40:30 hate to say it Mar 29 06:40:33 basically Mar 29 06:40:35 its the new iOS Mar 29 06:40:39 right Mar 29 06:40:44 and it's so so Mar 29 06:40:48 i do have to say my friends Droid Incredible is pretty sick Mar 29 06:40:58 lack of GUI accel for a gui-centric OS is a big fail Mar 29 06:40:59 well, the hardware is generally pretty awesome Mar 29 06:41:02 too bad, too--I think webOS is more open for devs, in a practical sense Mar 29 06:41:06 glad to see that is addressed in Android 3.x Mar 29 06:41:07 especially with the Honeycomb maneuver Mar 29 06:41:07 well, not that big of a fail Mar 29 06:41:15 it's faster than 1.4.5 Mar 29 06:42:13 android? what is teh direct correlation of Pixi+ to an ANdroid phone platform Mar 29 06:42:53 I think there are zillions of android phones in the pixi+'s price/size bracket Mar 29 06:42:58 none are really as slickly designed Mar 29 06:43:05 maybe something like the Motorola Flipout Mar 29 06:43:15 that is arm6 @ 600mhz with 256mb RAM? Mar 29 06:43:25 I'd be interested to see how the user experience is head to head Mar 29 06:43:35 there is no contest, the Droid Incredible rapes the pixi+ Mar 29 06:43:42 we did a Google Maps shootout Mar 29 06:43:45 holy shit lol Mar 29 06:44:20 maps app on webos is well known to be rather pathetic Mar 29 06:44:30 I think it was somewhere around 10s for him, and something like almost 30 for me Mar 29 06:44:40 at the time, I didn't have any pathces or UberKernel, but still Mar 29 06:44:47 google maps for webos is likely intentionally gimped Mar 29 06:44:48 just sayin' Mar 29 06:44:53 i believe it Mar 29 06:44:57 Goo is pretty vile Mar 29 06:45:22 I'd love to see 2.x on the Pixi though... It'd be such a nice gesture Mar 29 06:45:22 hmm, looks like I was right on the money Mar 29 06:45:24 http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_flipout-3271.php Mar 29 06:45:31 Plus, if its really that much faster, maybe the hardware would have room to breathe finally Mar 29 06:45:36 Saij: flipout looks like it'd be the device for your head-to-head Mar 29 06:45:39 isn't that the best site ever? Mar 29 06:46:00 lower res, so it will have less graphics load Mar 29 06:46:00 hmm Mar 29 06:46:04 and 512 RAM Mar 29 06:46:10 so less stuff through a bigger pipe Mar 29 06:46:14 yeah Mar 29 06:46:18 hmm Mar 29 06:46:26 the RAM on these boards is soldered in right? Mar 29 06:46:28 yeah, gotta find a "worse" android phone Mar 29 06:46:31 no swappable daughter boards? Mar 29 06:46:32 :) Mar 29 06:46:43 Saij: I haven't torn down a flipout, but I imagine so Mar 29 06:46:50 it's almost too small for swappable daughterboards Mar 29 06:46:53 Pixi I mean Mar 29 06:47:02 not sure Mar 29 06:47:09 Pixi has swappable nothing Mar 29 06:47:10 My only experience with swappable boards was on the Insignia mp3 players Mar 29 06:47:24 some of them had swappable memeory boards, was awesome Mar 29 06:47:30 The Pixi is really shaping up to look like a bad decision :C Mar 29 06:48:22 http://androidupdate.net/review/samsung-galaxy-mini-s5570-review.html Mar 29 06:48:23 The pixi is what it is, not want you want it to be in the future. That's the crux of the matter. Mar 29 06:48:25 this looks closer Mar 29 06:48:43 YEah, a dead device. Damnit, should have done more homework ahead of time Mar 29 06:49:54 rwhitby: to paraphrase Donald Rumsfled, we go to webOS with the phones we've got, not the phones we might like to have :) Mar 29 06:50:17 haha nice Mar 29 06:51:29 morning! Mar 29 06:51:37 I wonder how much of the slugishness of the pixi could be storage speed Mar 29 06:51:39 hmm Mar 29 06:52:12 uberkernel with compcache really made a world of difference for me, even when I tried not overclocking Mar 29 06:52:20 I think swap/disk caching stuff is pretty slow without it Mar 29 06:52:35 the help says that compcache is slower than RAM? Mar 29 06:52:48 slower than ram but faster than uncompressed swap Mar 29 06:53:10 ahh okay Mar 29 06:53:14 what is your kernel setup? Mar 29 06:53:30 so far I'm on the 806 one with faster updates for time slicing Mar 29 06:54:09 let me read my actual settings Mar 29 06:54:13 fixed speed 600 for typical phoning/browsing use, screenstate 500/1000 for games Mar 29 06:54:24 you're on a pre right? Mar 29 06:54:27 pre+ Mar 29 06:55:07 * rwhitby bbl Mar 29 06:55:35 what governor are you using? Mar 29 06:55:41 i'm using ondemandctl Mar 29 06:55:45 bleh Mar 29 06:55:46 tcl Mar 29 06:56:11 Saij: fixed speed governor for the fixed 600, screenstate governor for the screenstate 500/1000 :) Mar 29 06:56:19 hmm okay Mar 29 06:56:32 I think you should use userspace rather than ondemand if you want variable timing, though Mar 29 06:56:41 ? Mar 29 06:57:04 ondemand just doesn't work well with various parts of Luna, like the music player, for reasons I only sort of understand Mar 29 06:57:04 what is the difference? Mar 29 06:57:10 ahh okay Mar 29 06:57:43 ondemand is a traditional Linux kernel governor--the problem is it doesn't always play nice with Luna Mar 29 06:57:59 i have it set to min 122.88, max 806.4, 0.1 sample, 95% up, ignore nice load (on) Mar 29 06:58:00 userspace scales the cpu based on demand from Luna, not from the underlying linux system Mar 29 06:58:06 don't understand tickle and floor Mar 29 06:58:15 ahh okay Mar 29 06:58:48 i also ahve the options of msm7k, conservative, ondemand, userspace, powersave, performance Mar 29 06:59:06 Saij: just sell the device and get another Pre Mar 29 06:59:09 or something Mar 29 06:59:21 don't have options for screenstate Mar 29 06:59:23 the pixi is a good device and it's apparently still being sold Mar 29 06:59:28 Saij: I would try using the settings you've got, but with userspace governor Mar 29 06:59:44 Saij: ahh. screenstate governor may be a pre-only thing Mar 29 07:00:07 userspace setspeed Mar 29 07:00:10 i'm not quite getting it Mar 29 07:00:15 I have min/max/setspeed Mar 29 07:00:29 I love the form factor of the pixi, I love having the keyboard exposed like the Centro Mar 29 07:00:42 I just wish it was a bit better hardware, or at least on track for webos updates Mar 29 07:00:47 other than that, i'm in love Mar 29 07:00:59 so minspeed i get, maxspeed i get Mar 29 07:01:08 the help says setspeed just locks the clockrate at that Mar 29 07:01:10 so what is the point? Mar 29 07:01:48 Saij: setspeed is for setups like I'm using most of the time, where I just want my phone locked at 600 or 720 or 800 all of the time Mar 29 07:02:07 So setspeed will override min/max? Mar 29 07:02:12 you should try a userspace min/max setup for a few days and see if that's smoother than what you've got Mar 29 07:02:14 yeah Mar 29 07:02:43 there is no option to NOT have a setspeed in the userspace profile Mar 29 07:02:44 wtf Mar 29 07:03:04 oh, nvm, I misunderstoof Mar 29 07:03:07 *misunderstood Mar 29 07:03:09 well that is patently useless haah Mar 29 07:03:12 why even give min/max Mar 29 07:03:15 I'm looking at my settings now Mar 29 07:03:21 nah, I was wrong Mar 29 07:03:34 the fixed speed profiles are all "performance" but with only one speed to choose from Mar 29 07:03:35 no, you're fine Mar 29 07:03:51 i'm just wondering why even have min/max if setspeed determines everything Mar 29 07:03:55 userspace are min/max/setspeed and they really do scale with load Mar 29 07:04:03 but the setspeed is like the default Mar 29 07:04:08 ah okay Mar 29 07:04:30 oh god Mar 29 07:04:35 its not scaling Mar 29 07:04:43 set it to 122.8 setspeed Mar 29 07:04:47 won't buge Mar 29 07:04:53 yeah that's way too low Mar 29 07:05:17 it should scale eventually, but no idea how long that'll take now :) Mar 29 07:05:31 since you've slowed down the kernel's ability to change cpu speeds too Mar 29 07:05:33 all the other governor settings are immediate Mar 29 07:07:31 trying out msm7k Mar 29 07:07:34 i need to look up what that is Mar 29 07:07:45 anyone mess with the network stuff or the IO stuff? Mar 29 07:09:40 http://forums.precentral.net/2863244-post962.html Mar 29 07:09:45 this looks promising Mar 29 07:22:06 alright gents, good talking, night Mar 29 10:34:47 hey Mar 29 10:34:59 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Applications_Bundled_on_the_Pre says installed apps are in /var/usr/palm/applications Mar 29 10:35:02 but I can't find any Mar 29 10:46:27 phoque_uni: that page is out of date. Please change it to say /media/cryptofs/apps/usr/palm/applications Mar 29 11:47:14 hello all Mar 29 11:47:36 i am interested in linphone Mar 29 12:38:49 WebosArni: Try again in about 6 hours. All the responsable people are sleeping right now ... Mar 29 12:41:21 hi. anyone knows if it is possible to add Objective-C support to widk ? Mar 29 12:59:38 hello! Mar 29 12:59:50 I have a question regarding preware.org Mar 29 12:59:56 anyone here to speak for them? Mar 29 13:00:32 I made reviewtomail.com recently. My design is ugly as hell.. I'd like to use some css and the images from preware.org. May I? Mar 29 13:02:24 thomaschaaf: You will need to ask rwhitby, but he will not be here in the next 6 hours. As it is in the middle of the night for him right now Mar 29 13:02:50 hm :/ k Mar 29 13:03:05 I will wait then :( Mar 29 15:43:54 hi all, I have a 2.1 upgrade question Mar 29 15:43:59 I'm trying to build meta-doctor, and I'm getting the error: Invalid or corrupt jarfile build/meta-sprint-pre-2.1.0/webosdoctorp101ueu-wr-2.1.0.jar Mar 29 15:44:02 did I do something wrong? Mar 29 16:00:28 whats good Mar 29 16:00:58 not summatusmentis' meta-doctor build apparently Mar 29 16:02:14 nope, definitely not Mar 29 16:02:16 summatusmentis, I suggest clobbering it Mar 29 16:02:28 'make clobber' and start again Mar 29 16:02:42 alright, I can try that Mar 29 16:05:29 I should've picked a different boot image, customization yo Mar 29 16:09:51 hello Mar 29 16:10:45 RagingMind: I just clobbered it and rebuilt, and it did the same thing Mar 29 16:10:49 are there any known conflicts with message and phone prefs patches that sconix just releasted? Mar 29 16:11:08 that was a fast build, wish I had your computer Mar 29 16:11:23 it's a dual core 2.16ghz Mar 29 16:11:38 summatusmentis, what version of java are you using? Mar 29 16:12:27 not sure, lemme check Mar 29 16:14:21 Java 1.5 Mar 29 16:14:25 OS X edition Mar 29 16:25:12 RagingMind: any thoughts? Mar 29 16:25:23 it needs java 1.6 Mar 29 16:25:30 I'm pretty sure of that much Mar 29 16:25:48 but that should be documented on palm's site somewhere or in the info for meta doc Mar 29 16:30:19 I haven't seen that anywhere Mar 29 16:38:50 well, I just upgraded java, so we'll see Mar 29 17:22:30 this post-2.1-install boot is taking a super long time Mar 29 17:24:43 on what device? and OCed? Mar 29 17:25:09 on my Pre- Mar 29 17:25:17 and I literally just installed 2.1 Mar 29 17:25:22 so no, not OCed yet Mar 29 17:25:23 summatusmentis: first boot takes a long long while Mar 29 17:25:40 yea it does Mar 29 17:25:40 destinal: this is normal? ok Mar 29 17:25:45 but then, it speeds up a little :) Mar 29 17:26:01 yeah, intializing databases etc, subsequent boots aren't like that Mar 29 17:26:08 makes sense Mar 29 17:29:03 have fun with 2.1 :) Mar 29 17:31:05 assuming it actually works, I will Mar 29 17:32:00 you see the HP logo yet? Mar 29 17:32:12 it's booted Mar 29 17:32:24 yay! have fun ;) Mar 29 17:32:46 reinstalling all these apps and syncing my profiles and stuff is making it crawl though Mar 29 17:33:30 yeah Mar 29 17:33:40 thats a killer Mar 29 17:35:21 yeah I try to get uberkernel and govnah installed as quickly as I can Mar 29 17:35:48 * oilsworkn goes into catalog/software manager and pauses all the downloads Mar 29 17:35:57 then get on wifi Mar 29 17:36:01 then do em one at a time Mar 29 17:36:55 it's ok, I'm not doing anything with my phone currently Mar 29 17:37:01 oilsworkn: that's what I do Mar 29 17:38:22 I miss 1.4.5 :/ Mar 29 17:38:33 I dont Mar 29 17:38:40 all my patches are gone :) Mar 29 17:38:43 * oilsworkn likes everything in 2.x Mar 29 17:38:55 EXCEPT FOR the unpachable launcher Mar 29 17:38:56 Pre Plus on 2.x does have patches :( Mar 29 17:39:13 summatusmentis: EXACTLY. :( Mar 29 17:39:43 like don't pause video on minimize. Mar 29 17:39:44 I like the 2.x launcher better Mar 29 17:39:56 sconivPre: that one works Mar 29 17:39:58 I use it Mar 29 17:40:05 PatrickC_Pre2: I don't know, I got used to having smaller icons Mar 29 17:40:16 I did too Mar 29 17:40:23 I like 2.x. I just miss the patches, sound recorder, and LED ligh. Mar 29 17:40:24 but I like the way this launcher is laid out Mar 29 17:40:42 sconivPre: there are 3 voice recorders in the catalog Mar 29 17:40:48 official catalog, not beta Mar 29 17:40:50 Pre2: maybe I'm doing something wrong then. Mar 29 17:41:02 2.x launcher better? Mar 29 17:41:07 3x3?!?!?! really?! Mar 29 17:41:14 Pre2: really? I looked. Mar 29 17:41:29 3x4 oilsworkn Mar 29 17:41:37 Pre2: I'm running Pre Plus on 2.1 Mar 29 17:42:07 it worked on my Pre2, I think it worked on my Pre- Mar 29 17:42:16 I don't have the pre- in front of me to confirm Mar 29 17:42:39 PatrickC_Pre2: its 3x3 Mar 29 17:42:51 you just think its 3x4 becuase the quick launch is hidden Mar 29 17:42:53 heh Mar 29 17:43:03 well, it still is 4 goin dow Mar 29 17:43:05 :) Mar 29 17:43:23 s/dow/down/ Mar 29 18:04:36 does 2.x no longer merge contacts with the same name? Mar 29 18:10:45 PatrickC_Pre2 it should Mar 29 18:11:10 it didn't for my jabber (facebook chat) account Mar 29 18:12:53 probably because that is not an official supported account in 2.x (system -> accounts) Mar 29 18:13:36 ok, thanks Mar 29 18:26:49 what was that scoinv was saying about LED light in 2.x? Mar 29 18:27:58 last i heard someone said led flashlight wasnt possible on the pixi or something? Mar 29 18:28:12 it isnt Mar 29 18:28:18 can you paste in xterm? Mar 29 18:29:54 Is Preware capable of installing an ipk file using the -force-depends flag? Mar 29 18:33:30 PatrickC_Pre2: no paste support, nopers. don't know that pdk apps can access the paste buffer, or rather i'm not familiar with how one might do so. Mar 29 18:33:44 i'd imagine some of the good folk here might have an inkling or so :) Mar 29 18:33:45 ok, thanks Mar 29 18:34:19 dtzWill: But it could access the X paste buffer, so you could, in theory, copy and paste among X apps Mar 29 18:36:10 of course, we have to map the middle button to some key combination Mar 29 18:36:28 yes. Don't know that I've tried that, and lamely am unfamiliar with how X does the paste buffer Mar 29 18:36:31 middle==gesture area? Mar 29 18:37:29 no, gesture area = ctrl key, in X, the middle button of the mouse paste the buffer contents to the window the mouse is over Mar 29 18:37:42 I think it's called MOUSE3 in the X configuration Mar 29 18:38:11 but it's been too long since I configured keyboard bindings in X (92-93 I think) Mar 29 18:38:39 ah in my mind we map input events to x things? but I don't mean to be pedantic, i just mean that that's why i misunderstood Mar 29 18:38:56 i have no idea re:which the middle button is, shrug, i'd just look it up ^.^ Mar 29 18:39:32 hmm if only someone spent the time to push x to the potential it has :( Mar 29 18:39:42 i'm busy :( Mar 29 18:39:46 X would start at MOUSE1 just to screw with us Mar 29 18:48:30 ping mickeyl Mar 29 18:48:52 pong Mar 29 18:49:13 mickeyl: do you know how i get cellid informations like mnc, mcc, lac, cellid on webos? Mar 29 18:49:59 BluesLee: unfortunately not, sorry. i'm only using our custom OS on the pre Mar 29 18:50:50 mickeyl: okay, thanx. i dont use webos but a friend ... custom os means? Mar 29 18:51:00 mickeyl, shr? Mar 29 18:51:05 BluesLee: openembedded-based linux with FSO as middleware and SHR as UI Mar 29 18:51:07 ka6sox-home: correct Mar 29 18:51:28 after almost 2 years of work, we now can talk to the modem *phew* Mar 29 18:51:41 morphis did all that Mar 29 18:53:06 mickeyl: sounds good ... the pre does not have an sdcard slot, how its installed via a bootable image from emmc? Mar 29 18:54:48 we have an installer that can resize the partitioning to make some space for our OS. on top we have a dual-boot choice when you startup the system Mar 29 18:54:58 i like the pre, the keyboard is like the one from my old zaurus :-) Mar 29 18:55:02 hehe, yeah Mar 29 18:55:05 reminds me as well Mar 29 18:55:21 unfortunately it took us very very long to decipher the fscking modem protocol Mar 29 18:55:32 by now the pre is obsolete, but still good hardware Mar 29 18:55:43 so it's one of our main hacking platforms Mar 29 18:55:54 pre2 :) Mar 29 18:56:14 i advised my friend to buy it for 200 euros, for that price its really good hardware Mar 29 18:56:29 not as good as my n900 but ...;-) Mar 29 18:56:37 200 euros == to what is USD? Mar 29 18:57:37 PatrickC_Pre2: i am talking of the palm pre, not pre2 ... 1 usd=0.7 euros Mar 29 18:58:51 ok Mar 29 18:59:05 when was this? Mar 29 18:59:22 3 weeks before Mar 29 18:59:58 maybe i will get my wife a palm, the new tiny one is cute Mar 29 19:00:13 Veer FTW Mar 29 19:00:36 what about webos hacking Mar 29 19:00:43 I can find a Pre- on ebay here for about 57 euros Mar 29 19:00:46 what about it? Mar 29 19:00:50 its awesome! Mar 29 19:00:52 dual boot is possible thats fine Mar 29 19:01:14 but whats possible Mar 29 19:01:20 a lot :) Mar 29 19:01:33 can you make a phone call from terminal? Mar 29 19:01:48 why would you do that? Mar 29 19:01:52 what about the api's Mar 29 19:01:57 why? hehe ... Mar 29 19:02:35 api's for what? like specific api's? Mar 29 19:03:28 maybe i run a cron job in the background which triggers a specific phone call etc etc Mar 29 19:04:11 * PatrickC_Pre2 is totally new to linux, so he is still learning everything :) Mar 29 19:04:21 i mean does hp document all the stuff about gsm, gps, ui Mar 29 19:04:33 I believe so Mar 29 19:04:44 but I'm not 100% sure about that Mar 29 19:04:54 metaview: you here? Mar 29 19:05:10 PatrickC_Pre2: oki doki Mar 29 19:07:23 bbl Mar 29 19:20:10 Hm from informal benchmarks it looks like Reno TCP is fastest, but its latency isn't the best Mar 29 19:30:13 PatrickC_Pre2: yes? Mar 29 19:30:46 BluesLee wanted to know something, but he left Mar 29 19:30:58 yes Mar 29 19:31:04 you can make calls from the commandline Mar 29 19:31:08 AFAIK Mar 29 19:37:31 k, thanks metaview Mar 29 19:51:07 has anyone else had a pre that had a bad power button? Mar 29 19:51:29 like, one that works, but its very wobbly, and you could take it off very easily Mar 29 20:09:16 no, but I have one volume button that doesn't work anymore ;) Mar 29 20:10:40 the start button doesn't work on my microwave.. Mar 29 20:10:47 * Loudergood was feeling left out Mar 29 20:11:22 lol Mar 29 20:11:23 bbl Mar 29 20:13:57 haha, likewhat? Mar 29 20:15:19 mmm, /dev/ppp0 Mar 29 20:21:24 mickeyl: well, the pre2 uses the same comm board and isn't as obsolete :) Mar 29 20:24:42 rwhitby: Is Preware capable of installing an ipk using the -force-depends flag? Mar 29 20:44:47 hmm...so it looks like the flash ipk works when installed by preware but not by wosqi Mar 29 20:45:03 on what model/webOS version? Mar 29 20:47:03 vzw preplus, 2.1 Mar 29 20:47:26 Loudergood, that's what all the reports in the forms say Mar 29 20:47:40 indeed Mar 29 20:47:53 the funny part is that the guy that built the flash shell package... is the guy that makes wosqi Mar 29 20:47:54 I tried wosqi first and then checked the forum Mar 29 20:47:55 RagingMind: Looks like IRC and the forums are different entities for Loudergood :) Mar 29 20:48:23 I did it the way men do, copying the files directly and editing the browser file directly :) Mar 29 20:48:24 I rarely spend time in the forums Mar 29 20:48:29 haha Mar 29 20:48:51 I'm enough of a debian user to prefer an easily reversible package Mar 29 20:49:33 Loudergood, ditto Mar 29 20:49:37 * Loudergood goes to edit the wiki Mar 29 20:50:02 I"ve been spending a lot of time the past couple days getting a debian chroot working smoothly Mar 29 20:50:16 so I've heard Mar 29 20:50:26 so I can play with installing/running various apps (mostly X apps) without doing too much to my phone Mar 29 20:50:31 * Loudergood has to add that to his long list of projects Mar 29 20:50:34 Loudergood: flash properly installed by recreating the ipk from the on-device ipkg lib (not the apps lib, the one in the root), and then installing that one on the device with ipkg install Mar 29 20:50:50 I have a bunch of instructions worked out for the chroot image, just have to edit the wiki :) Mar 29 20:50:58 nobody's currently doing it that way though Mar 29 20:51:26 destinal, doesn't that require having a device with it currently installed? Mar 29 20:51:38 RagingMind: let me know when you edit it, hopefully I'll have a few hours free for testing Mar 29 20:51:42 RagingMind: the rootfs from the doctor IS a system with it currently installed) Mar 29 20:52:23 is there a quick/simple way to get the settings i choose ing Govnah to stick between reboots? Mar 29 20:52:31 and how does the Palm Profile Authorization work? Mar 29 20:52:52 It seems like if i reboot wth my 2g/3g radios off, I can't access teh appstore or my palm profile until I enable the radios and try again Mar 29 20:52:52 destinal, good point Mar 29 20:53:19 RagingMind: I made a shell script to create an ipk from a doctor rootfs but it has a couple of bugs Mar 29 20:53:40 so.. unpack root fs... run ipkg in a way to to suck it back up into a package? Mar 29 20:53:59 nah, ipkg doesn't create package files from installed packages Mar 29 20:54:05 but you can do it with your own script Mar 29 20:54:29 all the metadata is there and all the files are there so it's just a matter of packaging it back up Mar 29 20:56:06 RagingMind: something like this Mar 29 20:56:08 http://pastebin.com/fqVwsmjk Mar 29 20:56:44 unfortunately that doesn't tar up the needed directories, only the files, so it needs a bit of improvement Mar 29 20:57:19 any directory that a file is in where the directory doesn't already exist won't exist for the file to be extracted into since only the file's in the archive, not the dir Mar 29 20:57:44 I worked around it by mkdir'ing a few dirs before ipkg install flashwhatever.ipk Mar 29 20:59:00 hard code some of the directories into the script? Mar 29 20:59:04 *shrugs* Mar 29 21:00:11 nah, better way to fix it is to make sure the directory entry itself is added to the tar but not recursively. this all might be more suited to python than a shell script, but regardless the technique works well Mar 29 21:03:01 besides just applying the technique in python, it would be cool to give it a gui package browser so you could highlight the packages you want and click "make ipk" or whatever Mar 29 21:03:10 rwhitby: there? Mar 29 21:03:44 Is rwhitby the only on that can tell me whether I am allowed to use some of the css from preware.org? Mar 29 21:04:13 I imagine ka6sox-away or oil would know Mar 29 21:04:24 amongst others Mar 29 21:04:39 check the css file for a license ;) Mar 29 21:05:44 Is says Copyright Preware.org on the page Mar 29 21:06:10 want to use it for reviewtomail.com so nothing special.. Mar 29 21:06:28 thomaschaaf: have a question? Mar 29 21:06:34 If I develop it now and if he doesn't want it take it down that's fine right? Mar 29 21:06:55 Templarian: I want to take some design elements of preware.org and port them to reviewtomail.com Mar 29 21:07:22 things like the rouded corners :) Mar 29 21:07:28 Go for it, they are just copies from the SDK anyway. Mar 29 21:07:38 ok Mar 29 21:07:54 You can actually duplicate it with just CSS3. Mar 29 21:08:15 yea.. I could but then again.. that would kill FF 3.6 users Mar 29 21:08:20 or Mar 29 21:08:21 hmm Mar 29 21:08:24 No it wouldn't. Mar 29 21:08:50 The CSS3 featured needed are in FF 3.6. It would just mess up on >IE8 Mar 29 21:08:51 I guess I could but I'll just use the css from preware and modify it a bit :) Mar 29 21:09:06 IE users are not really my target group :) Mar 29 21:09:24 I'll given the warning I give everyone preware.org was written in a day in a half and everything about it is horrible. Mar 29 21:09:44 but the css is okay.. Mar 29 21:09:52 seems fairly clean :) Mar 29 21:10:11 look at http://reviewtomail.com I can not mess up anything with the design further :P Mar 29 21:10:45 sure you can, add marquee Mar 29 21:11:30 hehe Mar 29 21:13:56 destinal, I'm a bit lost... if you have to manually create some dirs before you install it, then it obviously stored the right directory that the file needs to go into Mar 29 21:14:03 why doesn't it create it itself? Mar 29 21:16:28 Loudergood, are you familiar with emdebian? Mar 29 21:16:38 no Mar 29 21:16:55 other than having heard the name Mar 29 21:18:54 that's my thing right now... I'm trying to figure out if I want a standard debian image, or an emdebian image... emdebian takes up less space Mar 29 21:19:14 but getting the image working needs some special attention cause of a bug in something or other Mar 29 21:20:56 you have to weight the trouble vs the space savings Mar 29 21:23:53 debian image 56MB gzipped... emdebian 16MB Mar 29 22:14:09 * Loudergood does more research into emdebian Mar 29 22:23:42 RagingMind: for some reason ipk, when untarring data.tar.gz does not automatically create directories for all paths as needed Mar 29 22:23:52 s/ipk/ipkg/ Mar 29 22:23:52 destinal meant: RagingMind: for some reason ipkg, when untarring data.tar.gz does not automatically create directories for all paths as needed Mar 29 22:24:16 so you'll see entries like drwxr-xr-x root/wheel 0 2010-12-13 15:05 ./usr/palm/packages/ in the tar Mar 29 22:24:25 hmm Mar 29 22:24:49 where the directory is in the archive because otherwise it won't get created Mar 29 22:24:57 how easy would it be to manually add the dir to the tar for each file? Mar 29 22:26:01 kind of eliminates the point Mar 29 22:26:11 doing it manually I mean Mar 29 22:26:22 not manually... Mar 29 22:26:40 having the script add each dir as it adds a file in that dir? Mar 29 22:26:48 ah, probably not that hard I think Mar 29 22:26:58 or would you wind up with 7 entries for a dir with 7 files in it? Mar 29 22:27:37 I wonder if tar has any options like this.. Mar 29 22:30:55 one option would be to just extract the data.tar.gz into a temp directory and recursively retar the temp directory, but unless you were running as root, the permissions would be wrong Mar 29 22:31:01 err directory ownership Mar 29 22:31:37 untarring a webos tar already needs root or fakeroot Mar 29 22:31:52 otherwise it chokes on /dev Mar 29 22:32:22 well, and yeah unless you extract it as root you usually won't get correct permissions anyhow Mar 29 23:32:51 know what your right i need to run irssi in a ssh env Mar 29 23:56:27 noob question: trying to install Amazon music on frankenPre2 thru novaterm on ubuntu and I get "read only filesystem" error. I assume there's some command necessary to be able to read/write to the file system... ? Mar 30 00:01:21 rootfs_open is a shell script that will open it up .. i think -t makes it temporary? check the arguments Mar 30 00:09:18 haeffb: where is my Pre? ;) hehehe... talk to you later, gotta go! Mar 30 00:09:21 bbl Mar 30 00:10:35 what's the suggested way to edit an entry in a list? I have a list where the primary action needs to be different: :http://bit.ly/fLY1Tv Mar 30 00:58:15 okay... emdebian looks nifty, but more as something to run on a truly space limited system Mar 30 00:58:26 I'll put the directions for just debian in the wiki Mar 30 01:00:14 RagingMind, I've been running a debian chroot for about a year. Mar 30 01:01:05 the directions in the wiki are for running someone else's pre-built system Mar 30 01:01:28 Anyone online that can help me understand how memory usage and allocation works with the Pre-? Mar 30 01:01:32 I'm just adding the stuff to build one's own system Mar 30 01:03:54 hello? Mar 30 01:04:12 hi Mar 30 01:04:29 hey Mar 30 01:04:56 anyone know where to get webos internal apps online like save/restore? Mar 30 01:06:26 preware Mar 30 01:06:44 i mean like on a computer Mar 30 01:06:57 to download the .ipk? Mar 30 01:07:19 nah, just like a list of apps or something Mar 30 01:07:34 Precentral.net has most apps listed in their catalog Mar 30 01:08:08 i've found precentral's search to be a bit hit or miss though. For browsing its OK, not great Mar 30 01:08:21 yeah pc is good Mar 30 01:08:29 The categories in Preware are pretty decent too, you can always browse those. Mar 30 01:08:52 in preware can i select webos internals only apps to view? Mar 30 01:09:12 I'm repeating myself here, but: Anyone online that can help me understand how memory usage and allocation works with the Pre-? Mar 30 01:09:40 hmm. like how its partitioned or something? Mar 30 01:10:46 i'm curious how memory is allocated when a program demands more. Mar 30 01:11:06 So on a Pre- say that 215mb are in use with 0 in the compcache Mar 30 01:11:23 and a program demands a huge amount of memory, say 50mb Mar 30 01:11:25 what happens? Mar 30 01:12:05 u have compcache installed? Mar 30 01:13:43 yes, in this hypothetical compcache is enabled. Say with 10mb Mar 30 01:14:53 well thats a function of compcache so i guess look up how that works,,,i'm not sure Mar 30 01:15:50 are you thinking about using the scripts to ugrade to 2.0? Mar 30 01:16:17 no, this is about what i suspect is a memory leak with the webOS audio system in 2.1 Mar 30 01:16:28 the problem only appears to be happening on devices with 512MB memory Mar 30 01:17:28 with pre - how would you have 2.1? Mar 30 01:17:50 I don't have a Pre- Mar 30 01:18:18 but the "scripts" you referred to would be how a Pre- would have it Mar 30 01:18:38 yeah, i just thot u said something about pre- Mar 30 01:18:50 Wow man Mar 30 01:18:55 iPad jailbreak.. Mar 30 01:19:09 That lasted less than 24 hours. Mar 30 01:19:24 yep, i'm asking about a Pre- because that device has 256mb ram, so it doesn't seem to be affected by this memory leak Mar 30 01:19:38 What a package of shit. Mar 30 01:19:40 oh i see what you mean Mar 30 01:20:29 my IT department jailbreaks iphones for employees Mar 30 01:20:31 hilarious Mar 30 01:20:44 u have pre 2? Mar 30 01:20:54 ..so they can what, use OpenVPN? Mar 30 01:21:31 no, tether Mar 30 01:21:44 though now that it is supported maybe that will be gone Mar 30 01:21:52 oh, obviously. Mar 30 01:21:59 r u using a pre2? Mar 30 01:22:04 no, pre+ Mar 30 01:22:19 u got 2.1 on it? Mar 30 01:22:37 yes Mar 30 01:22:40 * RagingMind whistles while working on the wiki... Mar 30 01:23:14 oc80z: do you know anything about how webOS allocates memory? i'm trying to track a memory leak that is happening on Pre+ and Pre2, but not Pre- Mar 30 01:23:15 did u use scripts or doctor? Mar 30 01:23:21 RagingMind: aww come on, I'm barely able to focus on studying for these tests as it is... Mar 30 01:23:30 timmy: the scripts create a doctor Mar 30 01:23:47 Well... Do you think it has somthing with Java? Mar 30 01:23:53 Hence, memory leak.. Mar 30 01:24:01 timmy: if you're thinking about doing it you should read the wiki a few times: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_2_Upgrade Mar 30 01:24:04 i know but a euro carrier released a sepaate doctor Mar 30 01:24:25 You know its a memory leak? I mean... there is a garbage man for that, right? Mar 30 01:24:25 im thinking about it but i prob wont right now Mar 30 01:24:40 oc80z: i don't really know, it is with the webos audio system. Garbage collection does nothing, i've tried it Mar 30 01:24:55 oc80z: or maybe it doesn't do nothing, but it didn't free up any memory Mar 30 01:25:10 Loudergood, nothin good yet Mar 30 01:25:19 so, the audio is what. choppy? Mar 30 01:25:39 There's a thread on it: http://forums.precentral.net/general-webos-chat/279044-does-webos-audio-system-2-1-have-memory-leak.html Mar 30 01:26:13 Audio does stutter subtly once ram fills up, but basically the ram slowly fills up (as reported by Govnah) until it hits 488. Then phone gets really laggy and music slightly stutters until a reboot Mar 30 01:26:15 timmy, the scripts USE the euro doctor to create a new doctor Mar 30 01:26:47 well. Mar 30 01:26:55 i dont like this thread, because its not a test case :( Mar 30 01:27:16 what are you testing? Mar 30 01:27:39 yean raging but one carrier had a separate dl or watever Mar 30 01:28:12 I'd like to see memory/cpu/filedescr from bash Mar 30 01:28:19 er.. dash. w/e busybox. Mar 30 01:28:26 not from GOvnah Mar 30 01:28:30 that sounds like a crappy problem Mar 30 01:28:52 someone said: Test 3: Mar 30 01:28:52 No patches installed, used built in music player. Mar 30 01:29:08 i read a thread about memcopy Mar 30 01:29:24 but i think it was regarding flash, nvm. Mar 30 01:29:48 you have got to be shitting me this was shipped with this bug. Mar 30 01:31:16 i'm not sure it was shipped, i think O2 may have released it on their own. HP said "you can ship it, but we're not supporting it!" and they did. Mar 30 01:31:38 so you're using a different music app than the stock one? Mar 30 01:32:19 oc80z: sorry for my ignorance, but tell me more about getting what you said? dash? busybox? where can i read more about those? Mar 30 01:32:53 someone posted " I rebooted, ran Govnah, played music for a while and this is the result: " Mar 30 01:33:12 r u using a diff music app then the stock one? Mar 30 01:33:21 Which is causing the leak: Audio System / Music Player / Govnah Mar 30 01:33:22 timmy: yes, music player remix Mar 30 01:33:35 and its been updated and all that for 2.1? Mar 30 01:33:47 it could be a combination of Govnah AND the audio system. Govnah doesn't leak on its own Mar 30 01:34:04 and it happens with any music player, pandora, built in music player, Music player remix Mar 30 01:34:17 ... Anymusic Plate or Govnah Mar 30 01:34:26 yeah sounds like compcache to me Mar 30 01:35:02 that kernel module compcache is what Mar 30 01:35:04 I was hoping to get memory data from a terminal app, but none are working for me on 2.1 Mar 30 01:35:57 on phone, i mean Mar 30 01:36:44 ok. you could run NovaTerm? Mar 30 01:37:29 timmy, u think its somthing with compcache? Mar 30 01:37:56 sounds like it Mar 30 01:38:31 Nick you want to hard reset, run music non-stop for dunno, a while? Mar 30 01:38:49 w/o determining memory with govnah Mar 30 01:38:49 ok, i can do that Mar 30 01:38:59 so we can narrow the problem down to, what it is not. Mar 30 01:39:09 o2 network is france? Mar 30 01:39:09 sure Mar 30 01:39:23 thanks nick, Mar 30 01:39:44 i think O2 is all over. France, germany, UK Mar 30 01:39:52 grab up that USB cable and i'll show you how to connect to busybox Mar 30 01:40:07 or, use the terminal, to interface with the linux shell, busybox. Mar 30 01:40:21 AH neat. Mar 30 01:41:32 hey um, oc, is there an app list for webos internals on the internet? Mar 30 01:41:34 busybox, dash, bash, sh, ksh, are all linux shells. they run user space programs. Mar 30 01:41:58 may be the git? Mar 30 01:42:20 i guess but do i have to be on linux for that? Mar 30 01:43:02 alright, phone is rebooted, i've got a terminal up. i'm on OSX btw Mar 30 01:43:07 dunno,... ill see Mar 30 01:43:30 i mean, if theres a 'public' one Mar 30 01:43:56 well i thot there would be one on the wiki but i guess not Mar 30 01:44:25 all webos-internals apps would be in the git repo Mar 30 01:44:25 i can just get em on preware i guess, i was looking for a complete list Mar 30 01:44:28 the most available is the packages version control Mar 30 01:44:59 NickNick ok ill find a thing for OSX Mar 30 01:45:30 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Novatool Mar 30 01:45:59 http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/ Mar 30 01:46:15 whats the i686 for?? Mar 30 01:46:22 oc80z: downloading. I'm on a craptastic connection so it'll take a minute or two Mar 30 01:46:44 thx, yeah i figured it out Mar 30 01:46:44 the ToughPad? :> Mar 30 01:48:49 emulator Mar 30 01:50:41 I stumbled across this: http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2064 Mar 30 01:50:41 ooh heh. Mar 30 01:51:57 yeah Mar 30 01:52:11 what objects are being brought in from a to b Mar 30 01:52:20 ...its an mp3 player Mar 30 01:52:33 I'm not sure that i've tried a GC after i closed the music application... I'll try that now. Mar 30 01:52:45 ... Mar 30 01:52:51 i dont think its userspace Mar 30 01:53:09 hi again everyone Mar 30 01:53:15 i'm revealing my total lack of knowledge i'm afraid... Mar 30 01:53:24 ... but i can follow directions ;) Mar 30 01:53:45 nick the more you know, the more you realize the less you know. Mar 30 01:54:09 did you check that wiki link? Mar 30 01:54:17 on Novaltool? http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Novatool Mar 30 01:54:44 I havn't used it before.. but i used similar GUI stuff. Mar 30 01:55:14 oc80z: i'm downloading it now. I'm on a 3g connection out in the woods, so it's slow. 30s left Mar 30 01:55:24 cant you get command line from webos quick install? Mar 30 01:55:43 in OSX? Mar 30 01:55:47 Oh shit yeah thats in Java Mar 30 01:56:01 idk if they have for osx Mar 30 01:56:18 Sounds like a /r/Firstworldproblem Mar 30 01:56:28 timmy if its java.. Mar 30 01:56:50 ok, up and running on novatool Mar 30 01:56:51 NickNick if you have webos quick installer, you can do it. Mar 30 01:57:06 are there any options for "terminal actions" Mar 30 01:57:17 ... do you have WebOS-QuickInstaller Mar 30 01:57:32 did you use the permanent or temporary method for compcache? Mar 30 01:57:34 no, don't have WOSQI. novatool has term actions Mar 30 01:57:36 http://forums.precentral.net/canuck-coding/274461-webos-quick-install-v4-04-a.html Mar 30 01:57:54 did you use the permanent or temporary method for compcache? Mar 30 01:58:46 hmm. after closing the app a GC from JSTop seemed to free the memory up Mar 30 01:58:56 i feel stupid i didn't try that already. Mar 30 01:59:04 "Perhaps the memory leak doesn't affect Pre- devices because any additional memory usage must be absorbed by Compcache (since 232MB essentially means you have 0mb free out of 256mb ram because of how the system handles physical memory). So instead of the leak filling up the physical memory it tries to fill up compcache, but is dumped by that process. This is speculation based on the two reports in this thread that the Pre- is not susceptible to this problem. Mar 30 01:59:24 heh Mar 30 01:59:30 lol Mar 30 01:59:34 thats what i'm chasing :) Mar 30 01:59:49 (21:12:16)NickNick: the problem only appears to be happening on devices with 512MB memory Mar 30 01:59:59 (21:15:12)NickNick: yep, i'm asking about a Pre- because that device has 256mb ram, so it doesn't seem to be affected by this memory leak Mar 30 02:00:29 did you use the permanent or temporary method for compcahce? Mar 30 02:00:49 timmy: compcache is enabled by default in the 2.1 kernel. I have not disabled it Mar 30 02:01:17 oc80z: i must be dense, i'm missing your point on those quotes... Mar 30 02:01:24 i mean to increase the compcahce size Mar 30 02:02:31 i meant permanent or tempory method for increasing compcahce size Mar 30 02:02:42 I've monitored Music Player (Remix) using Palm's official resource measurement tool (Worm) and there are no memory leaks that I can see. When I first started the Music Player (Remix) 2.0 project, one of the first things I did was clean up all the memory handling in the app. Mar 30 02:02:43 So I don't think the app itself has a memory leak; however it's possible the webOS audio system does since Worm only measures resources directly being used by the app. However the fact that you only have issues with BT audio seems to suggest to me that it's not a memory leak causing this issue, or if there is one it's caused by the bluetooth system. Mar 30 02:03:11 folks Mar 30 02:03:23 that second comment from DanPLC was way back. This happens regardless of BT. it's over speaker, headphone jack, you name it. Mar 30 02:03:39 i meant permanent or tempory method for increasing compcahce size Mar 30 02:04:00 timmy: that could delay the problem, but if there is a memory leak it will eventualy fill it Mar 30 02:04:01 1.4.5 GC behavior is different than 2.1 Mar 30 02:04:10 how so? Mar 30 02:04:16 2.1 is not longer leaks from that I can tell Mar 30 02:04:25 did you try to increase it tho or not? Mar 30 02:05:15 timmy: yes, i've tried a small increase to 16mb. no impact. A user in the thread i've been posting this issue to was using 64mb compcache and reported the same issue Mar 30 02:06:47 bhuey: you're saying that there is no leak in 2.1 itself anymore? i missed something... Mar 30 02:06:53 and the issue still occurs with it turned off? Mar 30 02:07:07 yes. it happens with it off. Mar 30 02:07:30 what version of compcache? Mar 30 02:07:47 whatever is implemented in the 2.1.0-18 UK Mar 30 02:07:56 ok Mar 30 02:08:12 i believe it is same as the 2.1 kernel, since HP adopted that Mar 30 02:08:27 a slightly modified version of their compcache configuration in the webOS kernel. Whitby assures us that this is most definitely the webOS-specific method of using compcache for combating memory issues as configured by the homebrew developer community, and that it looks like HP may have even made some changes to make it even better. Mar 30 02:09:03 I've tried with the palm kernel, and UK. same issue Mar 30 02:09:25 but both have the module built in by default Mar 30 02:09:29 did you use govnah to change the compcache or novaterm? Mar 30 02:09:45 what you are saying is that you can regulate the size or on/off compcache Mar 30 02:10:15 oc80z: through govnah, yes. Mar 30 02:10:32 so with novatool you thought i should see memory/cpu/filedescr? Mar 30 02:10:36 whats the command? Mar 30 02:10:59 i would use the "Increase compcache size, Permanent Method" from the 2.0 upgrade page Mar 30 02:11:32 you can use Mar 30 02:11:39 free, top Mar 30 02:12:17 press control+c to escape top Mar 30 02:12:37 http://lwn.net/Articles/334649/ Mar 30 02:12:44 love this zine. Mar 30 02:15:12 it's probably happening between govnah and compcache, i would use novaterm to increase compcache permanently Mar 30 02:16:16 i'm getting no output from novatool when i enter that command Mar 30 02:16:25 it reports the phone is connected. Mar 30 02:16:35 novacomd is running Mar 30 02:17:23 i'll try WOSQI Mar 30 02:17:56 i'm in dev mode Mar 30 02:18:01 u have the sdk? Mar 30 02:18:49 if you do you can use novaterm to permanently change the compcahce Mar 30 02:21:10 novaterm also has a cmd line Mar 30 02:21:12 Ch4.Japans.Tsunami.How.it.Happened.PDTV.XviD.MP3.MVGroup.org Mar 30 02:21:31 tough watching this just being there Mar 30 02:21:36 :( Mar 30 02:21:49 did you have some good sushi? Mar 30 02:21:58 yeah i had ikirazi Mar 30 02:22:09 (spelling) fish still moving plate ;] Mar 30 02:23:02 anyone have any reactioh to hp not supporting legacy devices? Mar 30 02:23:28 anyone who cares just does it themselves. Mar 30 02:24:03 couldnt they just have made a way to get flash on there? Mar 30 02:24:37 timmy: thanks, i do have sdk. Novaterm works fine with the free command Mar 30 02:24:49 like a webos 1.7.5 instead of 2.0? Mar 30 02:24:52 flash is an entirely different letdown Mar 30 02:25:00 timmy: depends whether the carrier that owns your subsidised phone lets them or not Mar 30 02:25:01 oh ya kiddin Mar 30 02:25:13 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Debian_chroot Mar 30 02:25:20 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Building_a_Debian_chroot_image Mar 30 02:25:23 yay! Mar 30 02:25:31 so youre advocating upgrading a pre- with scripts? Mar 30 02:25:32 * RagingMind feels accomplished... Mar 30 02:25:41 RagingMind niiiiez Mar 30 02:26:00 timmy: me advocate upgrading a legacy device to webOS 2.1 ? Mar 30 02:26:00 please anyone interested should look over them... I make lots of typos Mar 30 02:26:18 and I'm not always the best as writing things so that they are clearly understood Mar 30 02:26:19 i was wondering if you think its a good idea Mar 30 02:26:21 use a browser with spellcheck ;) Mar 30 02:26:39 Loudergood, missing > is not caught by spellcheck :-P Mar 30 02:26:46 timmy, my experience with it has been positive Mar 30 02:26:46 timmy: yes already. do it Mar 30 02:27:04 timmy: but read the wiki several times and take the time to google everything you dont' understand Mar 30 02:27:22 well thats you guys (wi) coming through for the dev community Mar 30 02:27:25 yeah i know Mar 30 02:27:35 change mnt/ to /mnt ?? Mar 30 02:27:43 my experience with my last pre was very positive on 2.1, but with my replacement it's been kinda laggy at time. though I never ran 1.4.5 long enough on this one to know if the behavior is 2.1 specific Mar 30 02:27:48 sorry RagingMind, I've done so much studying tonight my eyes are crossing when I try to read it, I'll leave them open though so I remember tomorrow Mar 30 02:27:51 im not complaining i just wanted flash lol Mar 30 02:28:06 Loudergood, study first... play with pre later ;) Mar 30 02:28:27 oc80z, I made it mnt deliberately Mar 30 02:28:29 do you think a webos 2.0 upgrade would ever be possible on preware? Mar 30 02:28:34 I know, I've been meaning to write an app or two since september ;) Mar 30 02:28:40 oh is there enough room on that partition, i cant tell. Mar 30 02:28:57 RagingMind: this memory leak i keep griping about makes my phone laggy and unusable if i play tunes long enough Mar 30 02:28:58 i'd love to see flash on 1.4.5 Mar 30 02:28:58 cause I was running all this in a webos folder in my home-dir Mar 30 02:29:27 NickNick, I never ran into that, not even with my old pre+, but I don't listen to music much on it Mar 30 02:30:26 oc80z, though I did forget to update a few of the commands... oops Mar 30 02:30:47 * RagingMind actually used a dir called "build" to avoid confusion with /mnt Mar 30 02:30:56 when i write these docs for interal, i just follow the doc and do what i did, agian. Mar 30 02:31:01 Loudergood, just promise you'll *reload* them in the morning before looking ;) Mar 30 02:31:07 oc80z: thanks for your help. I'm able to see the memory usage off novaterm now Mar 30 02:31:08 dunno, at all. Mar 30 02:31:09 haha of course Mar 30 02:31:31 truth is it'll probably have to be tomorrow afternoon Mar 30 02:31:43 NickNick killer, hey now you can brag that your phone has a linux shell. Mar 30 02:31:52 NATIVE heh. Mar 30 02:32:17 did you try to use novaterm to change compcahce? Mar 30 02:32:53 timmy not yet. I'm not sold on that being the issue. Anyone else think so? Mar 30 02:33:24 well Mar 30 02:33:31 it would explain why on my Pre+ it didn't happen Mar 30 02:33:33 it may not be Mar 30 02:33:38 i was about to look somthing up about it Mar 30 02:33:44 but we can determine if its not that. Mar 30 02:33:54 I don't listen to music often, but when I do I'll let my pre stream music for an hour or two. no issues Mar 30 02:34:16 ragingmind: Pre+ with 2.1? it happens on mine... plus, compcache is enabled by default with 2.1 Mar 30 02:34:33 i would just do a permannet change anyway...more stable? idk Mar 30 02:34:51 NickNick, oh? I thought it was just default for pre- on 2.1 Mar 30 02:34:53 hmm... Mar 30 02:35:09 I can stream music for a while and test it :) Mar 30 02:35:14 nope, all devices Mar 30 02:35:35 NickNick, this with a specific music app or all that you've tried? Mar 30 02:35:37 if you're feeling inclined i'd like to have your results in here: http://forums.precentral.net/general-webos-chat/279044-does-webos-audio-system-2-1-have-memory-leak.html Mar 30 02:35:48 yeah rage, thats whats sketchy.. its all music apps, evidently. Mar 30 02:35:56 eventually i'll find someone who has a supported device and this issue, then it can be reported to HP Mar 30 02:36:43 hey rw Mar 30 02:36:55 you got fishhead beer in aus? Mar 30 02:37:07 if you see it pick it up >:D Mar 30 02:37:08 ragingmind: yep. i've had it with Music Player Remix, built in player, and pandora. Others reported with Koto, i think, and maybe grooveshark? Mar 30 02:37:21 12% IPA Boston Beer :D Mar 30 02:37:38 I pretty much only use http://forums.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/229570-lostfm.html Mar 30 02:38:34 oc80z, does your irc client have tab completion? cause having the full nick is really helpful for people to figure out when they are mentioned :) Mar 30 02:38:58 yeah if they watchin they watching ifelse, not a big deal. Mar 30 02:39:30 I tend to skip stuff that's not highlighted when I'm also doing other stuff ;) Mar 30 02:44:02 im jaw dropped watching this video on japan. Mar 30 02:45:19 ive been in earthquakes, not fun... Mar 30 02:45:33 they said it lasted 5+ minutes Mar 30 02:46:07 1million swimming pools of water from tsunami waves Mar 30 02:46:12 800kmph Mar 30 02:46:18 hrm.. Mar 30 02:46:28 NickNick hows the memory doing> Mar 30 02:46:50 oc80z: slowly.... Mar 30 02:46:55 oc80z: getting... Mar 30 02:46:56 loosing ram? Mar 30 02:47:07 oc80z: less. Mar 30 02:47:50 wudup Pat Mar 30 02:52:06 nick any luck yet? Mar 30 02:52:24 so if this really is an issue with the webos audio system, is there anything to be done? Mar 30 02:52:35 (other than get palm to fix it for 2.2) Mar 30 02:54:04 timmy: i'm monitoring memory usage Mar 30 02:55:07 if ppl with vzw pre 2 have the same prob you know its in the system, but if not it may be in the upgrade process Mar 30 02:55:10 timmy: so far it's gone from 163284 free after reboot, to 118544 after 10 minutes. some of that is from starting the launcher, and opening the music app **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Mar 30 02:59:57 2011