**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 09 02:59:58 2012
Mar 09 03:02:21 <destinal> bhuey: isn't chrome the same thing as what?
Mar 09 03:08:31 <bhuey> same as webOS really ?
Mar 09 03:08:49 <bhuey> it's something to think about
Mar 09 03:15:59 <destinal> bhuey: no, android is something completely different, and I'm not a big fan of dalvik or the overall architecture
Mar 09 03:16:59 <destinal> not to mention all the kernel issues caused by them going their own way, I hope the Linux Standard Kernel sorts out some of those issues
Mar 09 03:17:43 <rwhitby> destinal: http://elinux.org/Android_Mainlining_Project and http://lwn.net/Articles/484196/
Mar 09 03:17:53 <rwhitby> don't hold your breath
Mar 09 03:18:08 * ka6sox doesn't
Mar 09 03:24:18 <bhuey> destinal: who's them ? Google ?
Mar 09 03:24:49 <destinal> bhuey: well "android" went their own way, before google even bought them
Mar 09 03:25:15 <bhuey> google bought Android ? really ? don't remember that
Mar 09 03:25:31 <bhuey> oooh yeah
Mar 09 03:26:00 <bhuey> what do you not like about it btw ?
Mar 09 03:31:44 <geist> they did
Mar 09 03:31:54 <geist> android was a couple of ex-danger folk
Mar 09 03:34:31 <destinal> bhuey: mainly I prefer a more standard userland and a more standard kernel, and I don't like writing code in Java that much.
Mar 09 03:35:07 <destinal> that last is more personal than technical :)
Mar 09 03:35:10 <bhuey> their lack of experience in core kernel shows
Mar 09 03:36:37 <destinal> geist: hey.  heard that novacom is getting released under apache license this month?  have no idea whether bootie will or not but having novacom open source is nice
Mar 09 03:37:29 <bhuey> yeah I really hope they do that
Mar 09 03:37:43 <bhuey> they should have done it in Jan IMO
Mar 09 03:38:34 <destinal> yeah novacom / bootie aren't encumbered by license issues AFAIK
Mar 09 03:45:40 <bhuey> any specific date on the source code ?
Mar 09 03:47:46 <geist> destinal: yeah, i'm pretty pumped.
Mar 09 03:47:58 <geist> though i've been warned that it was hacked on after i left
Mar 09 03:48:03 <geist> and the results weren't too pretty
Mar 09 03:49:21 <geist> i'd love to see bootie dropped, there some code in there i'd like to pull back into lk (where it was forked from in the first place)
Mar 09 03:49:32 <geist> but i'm not holding my breath on that
Mar 09 03:49:51 <geist> i suspect it'll have enough vendor specific hacks and whatnot they'll just give up trying to figure if it's openable or not
Mar 09 03:49:53 <destinal> yeah I mean technically it's not part of the OS as much as part of the hardware support for now "legacy" devices
Mar 09 03:50:07 <destinal> but who knows, it could happen
Mar 09 03:50:19 <geist> novacom would be nice so i could go remember all the process group/session group stuff that i had to do to get it right
Mar 09 03:50:27 <geist> then i can fix adb, which is largely an abomination
Mar 09 03:51:04 <bpadalino> fix it good
Mar 09 03:52:10 <geist> at least proper uncooked keys, sigwinch
Mar 09 03:52:54 <destinal> geist: I hope the new open webos project keeps things together long enough at least for a complete release.   (and I mean ideally a lot longer, but at *least* that long)
Mar 09 03:53:06 <geist> cool
Mar 09 03:54:08 <ka6sox> hiya Geist
Mar 09 03:54:13 <geist> hola
Mar 09 03:54:47 <ka6sox> novacom(d) would be very nice to have
Mar 09 03:55:07 <geist> yep. though as i said i've been warned it was Hacked On since i left
Mar 09 03:55:29 <destinal> geist: hey, you'll be able to contribute patches to the OSS project :)
Mar 09 03:55:33 <ka6sox> I think that there is enough vendor specific stuff in Bootie to render any "release" pretty seriously neutered.
Mar 09 03:56:51 <geist> yeah, but i dont care. i'd just rather get back some of the stacks i had written
Mar 09 03:57:04 <geist> usb, mmc, a nice little embedded FAT driver that someone wrote
Mar 09 03:57:23 <geist> though doesn't matter, it's a weeks worth of work, but it was somewhat battle hardened
Mar 09 03:57:44 <geist> the kernel and other stuff is identical to k
Mar 09 03:57:45 <geist> lk
Mar 09 03:57:52 <jcsullins> that the only FAT driver that plugs into lk?
Mar 09 03:58:20 <geist> well, i guess. i could write another one if i needed to
Mar 09 03:58:36 <geist> but someone else wrote a nice little FAT driver for bootie (some qualcomm radio partitions needed to be read/written to)
Mar 09 03:58:43 <geist> it was a nice implementation
Mar 09 03:59:04 <jcsullins> ah, was wondering why I never saw FAT (like ext2)
Mar 09 03:59:29 <geist> yeah. i'm about to start doing a bunch of work on lk
Mar 09 03:59:45 <geist> next plan is finish -m3 port, lwip, ethernet, lua
Mar 09 03:59:59 <jcsullins> oh, cool stuff
Mar 09 04:00:05 <destinal> geist: I'd love to see bootie used more places, u-boot is evil
Mar 09 04:00:13 <geist> yeah, well...
Mar 09 04:00:20 * geist is at Android now :)
Mar 09 04:00:36 <destinal> geist: ahh, didn't know that.  congrats, I guess? :)
Mar 09 04:00:42 <geist> there's already an lk based android bootloader that qualcomm uses
Mar 09 04:01:03 <destinal> geist: did you get bought up from the moto side or hired directly?
Mar 09 04:01:16 <geist> just started a few weeks ago. hired directly
Mar 09 04:01:19 <destinal> nice
Mar 09 04:01:20 <geist> the jawbone thing didn't work out
Mar 09 04:01:29 <geist> which is what i was doing for the last 1.5 years
Mar 09 04:02:07 <destinal> ah, sucks when projects we put a lot of time into don't see the light of day (even if you get paid for it)
Mar 09 04:03:42 <destinal> geist: working again with any people you knew from danger?  embedded is a pretty small world
Mar 09 04:05:16 <geist> yes. all of them
Mar 09 04:05:37 <geist> android is an amazing conglomeration of essentially all the Be and Danger people i'd ever worked with
Mar 09 04:06:21 <destinal> nice
Mar 09 04:07:04 <destinal> so I didn't realize when you said fix adb, you really meant it.  that would be very cool.
Mar 09 04:07:34 <bhuey> geist: code looked pretty good overall from my memory but you'll have to be the judge
Mar 09 04:07:44 <geist> it was complicated
Mar 09 04:07:56 <geist> and a lot of folks would look at it and not grok it before hacking
Mar 09 04:08:58 <geist> well, not really
Mar 09 04:08:59 <geist> but still
Mar 09 04:10:39 <destinal> geist: not sure why android gets such a hard time for not being open, AOSP is basically everything, the gapps is more of just a custom distro thing, not the OS proper, and what phone manufacturers add google can't do anything about
Mar 09 04:11:21 <geist> yep, pretty much
Mar 09 04:11:31 <geist> and everyone i've talked to there really hates that part
Mar 09 04:11:32 <destinal> I do wish the whole kernel thing would get resolved though
Mar 09 04:11:41 <geist> and they're pushing as hard as they can to get more stuff opened
Mar 09 04:11:46 <bhuey> geist: what happened to Jawbone ?
Mar 09 04:11:50 <bhuey> VC run out ?
Mar 09 04:11:51 <geist> destinal: well, frankly it has
Mar 09 04:12:12 <geist> android activates 850k devices a day, it's a defacto thing
Mar 09 04:12:28 <geist> they try to be nice, but android has stuff to ship, not deal with linux politics
Mar 09 04:12:32 <destinal> geist: heh, well resolved as in *became* the standard, yeah
Mar 09 04:12:45 <destinal> even touchpad uses an android kernel
Mar 09 04:12:45 <geist> and even linus has chimed in i believe and generally agreed
Mar 09 04:12:48 <bhuey> I thought it was a governance issue
Mar 09 04:13:13 <bhuey> the lack of influence on that project in general as being the problem
Mar 09 04:13:18 <bhuey> same thing with open solaris
Mar 09 04:13:34 <geist> whos influence on what project?
Mar 09 04:14:07 <bhuey> I'm just making a couple of assumptions here
Mar 09 04:14:23 <bhuey> most open source projects that aren't controlled by a company are generally open
Mar 09 04:14:34 <geist> ah, yeah
Mar 09 04:14:37 <bhuey> in both a code and governance sense
Mar 09 04:14:41 <ka6sox> the Android Mainlining group is working hard.
Mar 09 04:14:47 <ka6sox> it will happen.
Mar 09 04:15:23 <ka6sox> don't think it will all get into 3.3 though...maybe backed out :(
Mar 09 04:15:28 <bhuey> but there are projects that are like Open Solaris that have their code open but their governance is non-existance
Mar 09 04:15:39 <bhuey> 3.3 is scary
Mar 09 04:15:48 <bhuey> I'm expecting a lot of problems with it
Mar 09 04:15:49 <geist> yeah?
Mar 09 04:15:53 <ka6sox> ya
Mar 09 04:15:55 <ka6sox> me too
Mar 09 04:15:56 <geist> something big changed?
Mar 09 04:16:02 <bhuey> yes
Mar 09 04:16:12 <bhuey> complete inclusion of the Android drivers into mainline
Mar 09 04:16:23 <bhuey> worried primarily about wake-locks
Mar 09 04:16:24 <ka6sox> not complete
Mar 09 04:16:25 <geist> ahh
Mar 09 04:16:27 <bhuey> and other things
Mar 09 04:16:31 <bhuey> ka6sox: but a lot right ?
Mar 09 04:16:43 <ka6sox> a lot I suspect will happen.
Mar 09 04:16:57 <ka6sox> but its going to be "alpha" till the bugs get shaken out.
Mar 09 04:17:00 <bhuey> and because of that new bugs will come about from new interactions
Mar 09 04:17:04 <bhuey> it'll be rogh
Mar 09 04:17:05 <ka6sox> right
Mar 09 04:17:06 <bhuey> rough
Mar 09 04:17:07 <bhuey> right
Mar 09 04:17:08 <ka6sox> very
Mar 09 04:17:22 <bhuey> I'm not a bootloader dude so I know little about this kind of stuf
Mar 09 04:17:24 <bhuey> stuff
Mar 09 04:17:29 <bhuey> more core kernel and stuff like that
Mar 09 04:17:35 <ka6sox> its not bootloader issues
Mar 09 04:17:40 <bhuey> don't know much about USB either specifically
Mar 09 04:17:46 <bhuey> compared to other folks
Mar 09 04:17:56 <bhuey> ka6sox: just talking generally about my knowledge
Mar 09 04:18:02 <ka6sox> that whole stack is another keg-o-worms.
Mar 09 04:18:06 <bhuey> there are things that I know and things that I don't
Mar 09 04:18:11 <bhuey> USB ?
Mar 09 04:18:26 <ka6sox> well, the OTG/Master/Slave things.
Mar 09 04:18:34 <ka6sox> its kind of strange because of different modes.
Mar 09 04:19:01 <ka6sox> OTG being the strangest.
Mar 09 04:19:21 <bhuey> yeah I know little about that sstuff
Mar 09 04:19:35 <bhuey> little useful information about that stuff but I could probably learn it in relatively short order
Mar 09 04:20:08 <ka6sox> I have decided as long as the device I intend to port to has a working bootloader I don't care.
Mar 09 04:20:25 <ka6sox> I might have to massage my kernel to boot with it depending on bootargs...
Mar 09 04:20:47 <bhuey> yeah I care about the stuff after it
Mar 09 04:20:54 <ka6sox> but its too much of a Dragon Filled Environment to want to get into.
Mar 09 04:21:43 <ka6sox> geist, enhance lk so I can give it a whirl and try to get rid of uboot which grew out of ppcboot which is an abomination.
Mar 09 04:23:04 <ka6sox> I suppose I should contribute to LK to make it better :D
Mar 09 04:23:05 <geist> yeah, uboot is pretty hateful
Mar 09 04:23:11 <geist> what are you trying to boot?
Mar 09 04:23:32 <ka6sox> various ARM based SoC's
Mar 09 04:23:32 <jcsullins> ka6sox: or moboot :)
Mar 09 04:23:33 <geist> remember, lk is strictly speaking a kernel and some libraries, but one of the applications of it is to run a bootloader
Mar 09 04:24:02 <ka6sox> jcsullins, true...thats an option too...
Mar 09 04:24:10 <geist> i have it in github now, so you can more easily branch off it
Mar 09 04:24:17 <ka6sox> the kexecboot guys are doing something like that.
Mar 09 04:24:23 <geist> https://github.com/travisg/lk
Mar 09 04:24:30 <ka6sox> okay I will look.
Mar 09 04:24:52 <ka6sox> uboot and cavium make me ill.
Mar 09 04:25:03 <geist> yeah, uboot is hateful
Mar 09 04:25:19 <geist> it sort of works as long as someone else does the work and boot speed and binary size aren't a concern
Mar 09 04:25:28 <geist> maintaining it or doing new ports is super urgh
Mar 09 04:26:04 <ka6sox> ya, it was ugly just to go from an EVM to a real board and only 2 changes had to happen.
Mar 09 04:26:17 <geist> anyway, i might try to take up the lk mantle at android and push it to something useful
Mar 09 04:26:28 <geist> there's already a lk projecti n android, it just hasn't been touched in a couple years
Mar 09 04:26:55 <bhuey> ka6sox: haha you screwing around with Cavium right now ?
Mar 09 04:27:03 <ka6sox> ya
Mar 09 04:27:07 <bhuey> I know one of their compiler engineers
Mar 09 04:27:09 <ka6sox> got a board I'm bringing up.
Mar 09 04:27:16 <bhuey> use to be at Sony doing MIPS stuff
Mar 09 04:28:57 <ka6sox> their 8-core MIPS stuff is fast.
Mar 09 04:29:13 <ka6sox> I'm working on Econa 34XX stuff now.
Mar 09 04:29:44 <bhuey> what are they going to use it for ? network filter stuff or something like that ?
Mar 09 04:29:51 <ka6sox> their bootloader only setup 1 core on that.
Mar 09 04:29:59 <ka6sox> bhuey, something like that.
Mar 09 04:30:22 <ka6sox> so that was a patch...ugly one too.
Mar 09 04:30:42 <ka6sox> should have been straightforward..but it was u-boot...need I say more?
Mar 09 04:31:05 <ka6sox> <geist>	yeah, uboot is hateful
Mar 09 04:31:53 <bhuey> yeah never done boot bring up on a device like that before
Mar 09 04:35:57 <ka6sox> its fun/awful at the same time.
Mar 09 04:36:21 <bhuey> sound like mostly awful
Mar 09 04:36:35 <ka6sox> since I've been doing Assembly/machine/HDL for so long I end up with the manuals open trying to make sure I twiddled the right bits.
Mar 09 04:36:50 <bhuey> yeah and those manuals can be wrong
Mar 09 04:36:58 <ka6sox> very often are.
Mar 09 04:37:21 <bhuey> I wrote a JIT one time based on the PowerPC instruction set
Mar 09 04:37:34 <bhuey> it was for an emulator that I was writing
Mar 09 04:38:07 <bhuey> I took the PostScript text that it as generating and wrote a scanner to output the properties
Mar 09 04:38:26 <bhuey> so that the instruction set implementation was automated
Mar 09 04:38:36 <bhuey> worked great minus the problems with the manual
Mar 09 04:38:44 <bhuey> so I learned that manuals can't be trusted
Mar 09 04:44:45 <bhuey> as a result of that I became disinterested in assembler and thing s low level like that
Mar 09 04:44:57 <bhuey> went into other things like scheduling, etc...
Mar 09 04:45:02 <bhuey> concurrency
Mar 09 04:45:09 <bhuey> file systems to a certain degree, general kernel
Mar 09 04:45:40 <ka6sox> sounds painful.
Mar 09 04:46:13 <bhuey> which ?
Mar 09 04:46:22 <bhuey> doing your kind of work would drive me nuts
Mar 09 04:46:56 <bhuey> it always made me feel like a monkey doing it
Mar 09 04:47:28 <ka6sox> I rather like that level of stuff...no abstractions. :D
Mar 09 04:48:04 <bhuey> yeah I'm doing different things. It requires a lot of implicit knowledge for some kernel work
Mar 09 04:48:11 <bhuey> that's hard to get over
Mar 09 05:03:36 <ka6sox> the worst abstraction I don't like about the kernel is the Black Magic to get things into the SysFS tree.
Mar 09 05:03:53 <bhuey> yeah
Mar 09 05:04:00 <bhuey> it's just bulk code
Mar 09 05:04:23 <bhuey> VM paths are scary as well as Posix semantics with file systems
Mar 09 05:04:57 <ka6sox> if I hadn't read a whitepaper on how sysfs is "supposed" to work I would have been lost.
Mar 09 05:05:12 <ka6sox> it was totally non-intuitive.
Mar 09 05:09:39 <bhuey> just look at the sample code and forget it
Mar 09 05:13:56 <ka6sox> bhuey, all I did for the few things I've done is copy and paste
Mar 09 05:18:06 <ka6sox> because if I tried to understand it...I'd make a mess of it.
Mar 09 05:20:25 <bhuey> when bass music hits an HP commercial you know it's big time now
Mar 09 05:20:53 * bhuey just saw one on CBS
Mar 09 06:39:12 <destinal> geist: lk could be your 20%   :)
Mar 09 06:39:27 <geist> heh, yeah
Mar 09 09:29:26 <rwhitby> Morning
Mar 09 09:38:33 <bhuey> hey rwhitby
Mar 09 15:07:32 <PatrickC> morning rwhitby
Mar 09 18:28:57 <lonewulf`> hello all, seeking help, trying to launch WebOSQuickInstall-4.4.0.jar via Arch Linux Desktop computer
Mar 09 18:29:07 <lonewulf`> http://pastie.org/3558885
Mar 09 18:30:03 <lonewulf`> I've launched it in the past no problem, only thing I can think of, is that I've recently changed java version to jdk6 for building purposes
Mar 09 18:51:00 <lonewulf`> jre7-openjdk
Mar 09 18:51:30 <lonewulf`>  uninstalled jdk6, and jre6, and installed jre7-openjdk, and
Mar 09 18:51:31 <lonewulf`>                    webos quick install in now launching
Mar 09 20:55:22 <dwc-> lonewulf`: java.awt.HeadlessException at java.awt.GraphicsEnvironment.checkHeadless(GraphicsEnvironment.java:197)
Mar 09 20:55:54 <dwc-> sounds more like there's no GUI support ... perhaps DISPLAY isn't set or you're logged in remotely, etc
Mar 09 21:20:38 <ko1> afaik debian or fedora package -headless and the headfull rest of java separately
Mar 09 21:20:52 <ko1> thats how i met this "error"
Mar 10 00:56:57 <coveredwagonkid> anybody around who might be able to answer a meta-doctor/OTA question?
Mar 10 02:07:42 <rwhitby> morning
Mar 10 02:38:31 <DougReeder> Hey, anyone know exactly when the App Catalog change happens?
Mar 10 02:39:48 <DougReeder> Oh, the deadline was yesterday. Has the change gone through?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 10 02:59:58 2012