**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 16 02:59:59 2013 Jan 16 04:24:27 scoutcamper: it's fine. i was wondering what the hell was going on, lol Jan 16 04:33:13 HaDAk, I like watercolors Jan 16 04:33:26 Thanks. I'll never tell what it's really a picture of. :) Jan 16 04:34:43 looks like a clown wig Jan 16 04:35:01 Negative. Jan 16 04:35:21 its okay...I like it Jan 16 04:35:33 ^^ Jan 16 04:36:40 do you get an email when that page is updated or something? Jan 16 04:38:38 its on my watch list Jan 16 11:26:07 Can anyone give me a comprehensive list as to what is needed to port OWOS to a device? (Is it mostly just libs and a modified kernel to get the basics working)? Jan 16 13:10:08 Unisian: nyx modules Jan 16 13:22:14 shouldn't the default nyx modules pick up the basic stuff? Jan 16 13:23:29 I take it I would have to write the nyx modules myself then? Jan 16 13:24:28 depending on the hardware, probably. Jan 16 13:24:43 but it would be nice if they were shared, so any "similar" devices would be easier to port to Jan 16 13:25:18 Well I'm thinking of the Xperia T, as that's the phone I have (Which will be my dev phone as I have the Xperia Z coming) and Sony are generally really good for Open Sourcing their stuff / releasing drives/libs Jan 16 13:28:12 I haven't actually written any nyx libs, or know anything that goes into developing them Jan 16 13:28:20 So I can't help you there Jan 16 13:29:34 Ahh fair enough. Thanks anyways :) Jan 16 13:29:52 ka6sox or ShiftyAxel might be of more use Jan 16 13:40:50 morning all Jan 16 13:41:21 Unisian: it depends on how much you know about porting operating systems/embedded systems development in general Jan 16 13:41:43 first off you need something that boots, preferably a glibc-based linux implementation for your device Jan 16 13:42:23 I know ... Nothing really :D Only port I've ever done was MIUI to the Xperia T Jan 16 13:42:30 Using the FXP Sources Jan 16 13:42:40 porting droid vs porting open webos is very different, that's for sure Jan 16 13:43:10 if there's something like SHR or Ubuntu available for your device already, looking into that would be a good start Jan 16 13:43:30 if not, you'd have to figure out the boot process and get a barebones system image running Jan 16 13:43:59 and then from there, start getting all the bits and pieces such as drivers, kernel modules and eventually Open webOS bits (luna-sysmgr, etc) working Jan 16 13:44:18 So, for a complete beginner, I'm going to struggle, a lot? ^^ Jan 16 13:44:33 nyx modules come after you have the system bits working, as they basically translate raw device info (touchscreen, orientation, etc) into data that luna/Qt can read Jan 16 13:44:39 probably :p Jan 16 13:45:17 it's certainly worth checking to see if OpenEmbedded has support for your device/hardware Jan 16 13:46:01 if so, you can put together a machine recipe for the Xperia and it'll build all the required pieces for you (though this is a gross oversimplification of what OE actually does) Jan 16 13:48:17 ah, looks like it's running a Qualcomm snapdragon... Qualcomm is a bad word around these parts Jan 16 13:48:33 Ahh OK, so first off... Research about the Ubuntu side of things for my phone and ahh, really? D: Jan 16 13:49:30 yeah, they're really not big on open-source support Jan 16 13:49:53 and a quick google tells me that there's no ubuntu or SHR distro available for it Jan 16 13:51:22 Ahh damn :/ Does that mean the possibility is next to none, or just that it'll be a hell of a lot hearder? Jan 16 13:52:10 it'll be a much bigger job Jan 16 13:52:38 and the likelihood of getting telephony working is quite low without serious reverse-engineering skills Jan 16 13:52:40 Awww :( So, me with no experience should just try help out on the Nexus 7 then, to gain experience? And get my Nexus 7 running OWOS :D Jan 16 13:53:05 yeah, that's probably a good place to start :) Jan 16 13:53:31 Better look at getting my new computer soon then Jan 16 13:54:16 certainly advisable, i've been making OE builds on my macbook and it's... less than fast, that's for sure Jan 16 13:54:28 which is why i'm now waiting on a 3770k beast to arrive :) Jan 16 13:54:51 OK, I have the i7 3770K with 16GB of RAM, 256 SSD and 3TB HDD in mind...? Jan 16 13:54:52 what sort of thing did you want to help out with/accomplish with Open webOS anyway? anything specific? Jan 16 13:55:26 Umm, just anything really... I've been watching your scaling since day one, and that's what kinda got me interested ^^ Jan 16 13:55:59 my build is 3770k, 8Gb RAM, 240Gb SSD and 1Tb HDD, so you'll be fine i'm sure :D Jan 16 13:56:09 oho, well that's quite flattering :) Jan 16 13:56:23 most of my stuff is work on luna and the UI, as you've probably gathered Jan 16 13:56:57 Haha, well I was thinking of 32GB RAM and I've seen stuff like min of 16GB for Android builds and stuff, and it would only cost an extra £30... and Yea, I have Jan 16 13:56:58 but there are many many things to do, so i'm sure you'll be able to find something Jan 16 13:57:44 I skimped slightly on RAM due to the rest of the components maxing out my budget, so that'll prob be my first upgrade Jan 16 13:58:29 OE's minimum basic requirements are an 80Gb (at the very very least) ext3 partition, 8Gb of RAM and a decent processor Jan 16 13:58:39 Ahh fair enough, one of the main reasons I want to go for OWOS is the gesture area (also you're doing I believe) as it just seems far more intuitive than anything else Jan 16 13:58:53 hehe, yeah I made the virtual one Jan 16 13:59:16 there are plans to make it even more intuitive, but before that happens I need to get some other things fixed Jan 16 14:00:16 Yea, I guessed. Fixes before features? :)I was really close to buying the Galaxy Nexus, but before I gathered up the money, I saw the Nexus 7 build! That'll be my 7" Touchpad to go with his older brother Jan 16 14:00:52 precisely, we need a stable release before fancying it up Jan 16 14:01:04 hehe, it works really well on the N7, morphis did a really great job getting it running Jan 16 14:01:17 plus 7in tablet = many wins Jan 16 14:01:58 Yea, I want to put OWOS on to keep, I think Android did the wrong thing with 4.2.1 ... I much preferred 4.1.2 as it was more stable and less crap Jan 16 14:02:32 4.2.x is even worse. Jan 16 14:02:39 My N7 crashes constantly. Jan 16 14:02:43 And it's sluggish. Jan 16 14:02:45 That's all mine does Jan 16 14:02:51 agreed, they made it awesome with project butter, then screwed up a bunch of minor things that made it less enjoyable to use Jan 16 14:03:12 I flip on the screen, and whenever it decides to wake up, it throws a crash report. Jan 16 14:03:20 probably about 50% of the time Jan 16 14:03:31 you never get that sort of BS with owo Jan 16 14:03:34 using a custom ROM or anything like that? Jan 16 14:03:42 totally bone stock Jan 16 14:03:59 hmm, mine's been very stable on 4.2.x, you might want to reflash Jan 16 14:04:12 Mines stock too Jan 16 14:04:20 i should have to. that's the point. Jan 16 14:04:20 Was going to move to the CM10.1 Nightlies Jan 16 14:04:34 I just dislike the random bits like adding a 1/2sec pause to screen lock, and the weird new pull-down behaviour, ew! Jan 16 14:04:47 yeah. Jan 16 14:04:51 i'll agree with that. Jan 16 14:05:00 i have a hard time keeping my pulldown menus pulled down Jan 16 14:05:04 it's really really irritating Jan 16 14:05:09 it worked SO much better in 4.1 Jan 16 14:05:20 exactly! it takes me ~3 tries Jan 16 14:05:25 yep Jan 16 14:05:38 and you can drag them down a seemingly infinite distance instead of 'where the last notification stops'... Jan 16 14:06:22 yeah. Jan 16 14:06:27 -1 for android Jan 16 14:07:02 But ... I have the Xperia Z in mind for my next phone, but I doubt a OWOS port will come to it, so it makes me sad :( Jan 16 14:08:52 GNex is pretty much the way to go if you're wanting an Ow phone Jan 16 14:09:26 I'm not aware of any other projects that are targeting a handset, save for phnx's webOS-in-Android Jan 16 14:10:08 but (purely my view/opinion) the likeihood of them getting that running with decent performance and hardware integration anytime soon is rather low Jan 16 14:11:02 Yea, I don't have much hope for that either. But I think what they're doing requires great talent if they do it well Jan 16 14:13:00 I'd like to work on getting ow running on the hp hardware, but i fear i'd break the hardware... Jan 16 14:16:00 You mean the Tablet etc..? Jan 16 14:18:27 yes Jan 16 14:19:32 but i can't even remove the battery to force a restart Jan 16 14:19:40 I think it may be possible with a lot of hard work. The FXP team is currently working on building the Android 3.4 Nexus 4 Kernel for the Xperia T :) It's taking them a while though Jan 16 14:19:52 You can hard reset the device, which is very similar Jan 16 14:20:06 i can hard reset the tp? Jan 16 14:20:19 how? Jan 16 14:20:27 *googles* Jan 16 14:20:35 Yes :) Not sure which buttons it is, but I just press all of the side (Power + VolUp + VolDown) Jan 16 14:21:25 hold power+ center button Jan 16 14:21:28 hm right Jan 16 14:21:36 Or that one :) Jan 16 14:22:56 so i could just create some new lvm partitions to play with, and somehow hook into moboot (cm already running) Jan 16 14:23:39 I'd love to see OTA updates for OWOS once it gets stable enough :D Jan 16 14:25:04 yeah, certainly seems like the way forward :) Jan 16 14:26:05 I mean, I am constantly flashing on my Xperia and it seems like hell... It's download, flash, every day for nightlies when the permissions break D: Jan 16 14:26:19 and most of the time on the builds, downloads over a certain size, wont even bother downloading Jan 16 14:27:00 the way minor system component upgrading is handled by today's popular OSes totally needs a change Jan 16 14:27:30 Also, I'm a Web Developer with relatively extensive knowledge of PHP, jQuery, HTML and CSS... Will this help me much ? Jan 16 14:27:41 absolutely, we're in need of webapp developers Jan 16 14:27:55 I NEVER EVER have auto-updates on Windows, it is the spawn of Satan Jan 16 14:28:10 baha, windows is one of the worse examples :P Jan 16 14:28:26 in terms of webapps, enyo2 rewrites of memos, settings and preware are in progress thus far Jan 16 14:28:38 "Update now!" - "No." - "OK, I'll pop up and distrupt whatever you're doing in 15 minutes... and try again..." Jan 16 14:30:57 Enyo doesn't seem toooo hard to learn either Jan 16 14:31:21 the details can be ugly :) Jan 16 14:31:44 you know. you could use diff updates. there was a program written at the university of michigan that we used to administer all the servers there Jan 16 14:31:47 radmin Jan 16 14:32:41 http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/radmind/ Jan 16 14:33:04 with some minor editing, it could probably do exactly what you need AND serve as the app store backend Jan 16 14:35:01 Unisian: enyo is really easy to learn Jan 16 14:35:22 and if you already have a good grasp of JS, you'll be totally fine :) Jan 16 14:36:02 Haha, not much JS, just jQuery really.. only thing I think will be hardish is the whole... Talking to the hardware side of things Jan 16 14:36:29 that's done through nodejs services Jan 16 14:36:29 But, I think one of the main things I really want to focus on would be the SMS App Jan 16 14:36:53 I'd ping morphis and ask him about that, he's the low-level systems/telephony guy Jan 16 14:37:05 we also need a phone app :P Jan 16 14:37:17 i can't switch to owo as a daily driver until we've got that Jan 16 14:37:20 yes yes, we have many a concern :P Jan 16 14:37:26 Fair enough, I'll look into it after work Jan 16 14:37:27 phone will probably come before SMS Jan 16 14:37:34 that's my point Jan 16 14:37:36 it should Jan 16 14:38:09 I know, I know ;) Just saying I'm a sucker for a really nice well featured SMS App :p Jan 16 14:38:22 Stock android one sucks, bad. Jan 16 14:38:24 we all are. Jan 16 14:38:31 Unisian: hardware access from inside enyo is easy- https://github.com/webOS-ports/org.webosports.app.settings/blob/master/source/ScreenLock.js Jan 16 14:38:38 And GoSMS seems bloated Jan 16 14:38:45 Thanks, Shifty Jan 16 14:38:56 welcome :) Jan 16 14:39:38 at it's core, the SMS app would probably be 'subscribe to sms service -> wait for incoming sms -> read provided JS object and output to screen' Jan 16 14:41:34 i think a better security concept would be nice too Jan 16 14:41:59 Passworded conversations on users request :D Jan 16 14:42:33 Shifty, how do you find out which method to use? Look at the lower end stuff? Jan 16 14:42:51 Unisian: yeah, that's generally the way to go Jan 16 14:43:13 OK fair enough, seems pretty easy to get the hang of Jan 16 14:43:21 also the sms app should run in the background for this somehow Jan 16 14:43:26 afaik we don't have a phone/sms service yet, those'll be written when the low-level bits are done Jan 16 14:43:40 stbuehler: we should be able to do that with an entry in luna.conf Jan 16 14:43:49 Yea, I'll have to get the hang of Enyo first too :p Jan 16 14:43:54 and noWindow: true in appinfo combined with some cleverness Jan 16 14:44:02 Unisian: yeah, that helps :P Jan 16 14:44:34 So, an SMS Listener app (to listen for the SMS) and then generally the SMS App that will be used to read/write..? Jan 16 14:44:37 the luna-send console command is very useful when it comes to services, you can call a service from the commandline and see exactly what it'll do on-device, including output Jan 16 14:44:48 naw, one SMS app that does both Jan 16 14:44:53 Oh really? Jan 16 14:45:04 yeah, webOS can run apps headlessly Jan 16 14:45:22 Fair enough, didn't know that... Took me over a year to get my hands on a Touchpad :S Jan 16 14:45:48 think desktop i guess, you have the background process that handles... well, background things, potentially with a toolbar icon (dashboard notification in webOS) and multiple windows Jan 16 14:46:16 just make sure the foreground window is really gone and doesn't use up all the memory :D Jan 16 14:46:37 indeed :) Jan 16 14:46:40 Ahh I guess ... Yea :) Jan 16 14:47:06 though it doesn't do that unless you specify noWindow: true in appinfo.json, if it's false (default) then your app will be a simple single window Jan 16 14:47:11 With the scaling, could you have it dynamically scale? (Kind of like android does with the DPI setting) Jan 16 14:47:18 define dynamically? Jan 16 14:47:25 like a DPI setting? Jan 16 14:47:40 Like... Say you drag an icon and drop it onto the launcher bar, could you have it add the icon and shrink the others? Jan 16 14:47:52 absolutely Jan 16 14:48:22 Good! I hate the way, I'm given options like 9x9 icons for my Android launcher, but what it does is makes the grid small, but the icons stay the same size and just cut everything up Jan 16 14:48:30 Can anybody help me? I need to create symlink to libc.so.6, but internal FS on my pre 3 is unavailable in memboot, what /dev I need to mount to see my internal FS? Jan 16 14:49:46 Unisian: my UI scaling stuff basically does three things: DPI calculation (figure out the scalar, like 0.5, 1.0, 1.5 etc), pixmap scaling (done on load to save overhead), layout scaling Jan 16 14:50:45 darkdeveloper: i think it is managed with lvm Jan 16 14:50:53 So, does it do all of the scaling on boot? Jan 16 14:51:07 yeah, your idea would probably exist as a separate function Jan 16 14:51:32 and if you only wanted to scale 1 thing (e.g. the icons on the launcher) but keep the rest the scale it was at, whilst using the device.... is that possible? Jan 16 14:51:36 yeah Jan 16 14:51:37 Ahh OK Jan 16 14:51:49 Sorry, just read your answer before I wrote the question Jan 16 14:51:53 hehe :) Jan 16 14:52:02 stbuehler: Thanq, now I'll try) Jan 16 14:52:04 So, may I ask what the current focus for OWOS is ? Jan 16 14:52:11 'Stable' :) Jan 16 14:52:30 right now, our highest priority is getting Preware working Jan 16 14:52:39 Well I guessed :p But I mean towards, features/stuff working? Jan 16 14:52:47 has any further work been done with the preware2 app i started? Jan 16 14:52:51 somebody took it and ran with it Jan 16 14:53:32 Also, I take it ... If HP isn't going to provide a way of getting apps, we'll have to try make our own appstore? Jan 16 14:53:54 HaDAk: no, Garfonso started porting the original Preware backend using a basic enyo bootplate, then I added a ports-style UI using webos-ports-lib and Panels the other day Jan 16 14:54:14 so my work fell by the wayside? Jan 16 14:54:16 bummer. :( Jan 16 14:54:41 Unisian: hardware-accellerated cards are the main thing, but it's being worked, past that we're pretty much good as far as actually using the OS goes Jan 16 14:55:09 HaDAk: yeah, pretty much. the lack of functionality was an issue I think Jan 16 14:55:25 well, i spent a day hacking at a UI design. Jan 16 14:55:28 of course it lacked functionality Jan 16 14:55:51 Unisian: I don't think we've had an official word on that Jan 16 14:55:54 So, it's running smooth and stuff..? / Are you able to boot into OWOS without tethering now? Jan 16 14:56:10 the main luna UI runs smoothly, but the cards themselves don't Jan 16 14:56:17 (aka it's still like the last video) Jan 16 14:56:42 Ahh OK. I guess I'll be able to see more of it when I get it to build at home Jan 16 14:56:44 they have to use software rendering, because old webOS had two hardware framebuffers and modern droid devices don't Jan 16 14:56:45 yeah Jan 16 14:56:54 so that's being investigated Jan 16 14:57:09 and you still need to boot it over USB, but an installer is also being worked Jan 16 14:57:16 what's about the OWOS for the hp touchpad? Jan 16 14:57:26 LunohoD: pull request? Jan 16 14:57:29 :) Jan 16 14:57:30 haha Jan 16 14:57:36 ;) Jan 16 14:57:58 Well a lot of progress has gone into it so far, I'm impressed! Do you mean an installer via... PC or on device? Jan 16 14:58:11 (Sort of like how flashing works for Android) Jan 16 14:58:34 probably more along the lines of how flashing works for android Jan 16 14:58:44 since it's an actual OS image that we're creating Jan 16 14:59:21 Fair enough, and then from there you'll be able to (eventually) just do OTA for updates..? Jan 16 14:59:39 sure hope so :) Jan 16 14:59:43 in a purely technical sense, you could probably flash the existing FS image and kernel to a GNex/N7 Jan 16 14:59:52 HOWEVER, whether it would work is another matter entirely Jan 16 15:02:06 May I ask what some of the biggest / major issues are? Jan 16 15:05:36 in order: HW Accelleration for webapps, Preware, lack of Core Apps Jan 16 15:06:38 we need Preware because that'll be our main method of getting apps on-device, which is important since going from 3.x -> Ow and having zero apps available would be bad Jan 16 15:07:05 I see, will preware essentially be the "App Store" as such ? Jan 16 15:07:19 unless we get an official word from HP to the contrary, yes Jan 16 15:07:37 at that point, shouldn't preware be renamed/rebranded? Jan 16 15:07:44 So, will it look just like the older preware? (Don't really like the look of that tbh) Jan 16 15:07:46 Open webOS App Store or something? Jan 16 15:08:00 Unisian: that's why i started redesigning it. see previous conversation. Jan 16 15:08:15 HaDAk: it's a well-known name in the community, I think changing it would cause more issues than it's worth Jan 16 15:08:39 Ahh OK, I saw the bit about Preware2 just wasn't sure if it was just to make it faster and stuff or to give it more of an "App Store" look and feel to get around it easier Jan 16 15:08:40 especially if it turns out that HP are in fact doing an app store, which is unknown at the moment Jan 16 15:08:42 ShiftyAxel: there could be a transitionary period. "open webos app store, formerly preware" Jan 16 15:08:52 well, yeah. if they ARE, then keep it t he same Jan 16 15:09:09 if not, people coming to the platform might be a little uncomfortable without seeing an "app store" Jan 16 15:09:11 Or, keep preware as-is and have an App Store alongside Jan 16 15:09:25 I've already put together a new UI for Preware, see http://shiftyaxel.github.com/preware-enyo2/debug.html Jan 16 15:09:35 Preware for peoples patches etc and the App Store for people to sell their apps Jan 16 15:10:10 there's no point considering a rename until we know what's happening, and even then, preware is preware Jan 16 15:10:14 I like that search! Even if it is a little buggy :p Jan 16 15:10:21 it would be nice to have protocol for the app store, including a standard to pay for apps Jan 16 15:10:42 afaik preware is not an app store in that regard Jan 16 15:11:03 I would love to do the back end of the OWOS App Store :D Jan 16 15:11:15 then you have only one app to manage all the applications, and can add accounts for different stores Jan 16 15:11:32 preware will download free (preware) stuff and things you own from the HP store Jan 16 15:11:36 (existing preware) Jan 16 15:11:49 ShiftyAxel: how'd you get github to share the html Jan 16 15:11:51 yes, but you can't pay with it Jan 16 15:11:55 right? Jan 16 15:12:42 HaDAk: push your webapp to a branch named 'gh-pages', after a while github'll email you saying the page build is complete, then go to http://[username].github.com/[reponame]/[htmlfile].html Jan 16 15:12:58 stbuehler: correct Jan 16 15:13:12 ShiftyAxel: sounds like a pain in the ass. not worth it right now. :P Jan 16 15:13:25 at least i still have http://hadak.org/preware2/ Jan 16 15:13:35 anyway, that's the ui design i was working on Unisian Jan 16 15:13:40 HaDAk: it's more convenient than you'd think, "git checkout -b gh-pages && git push origin gh-pages", job done Jan 16 15:14:41 also isn't that background patented by apple or something? the carbon fiber weavey thing? Jan 16 15:15:06 i sure hope not. http://enyojs.com/sampler/ Jan 16 15:15:14 d'oh! Jan 16 15:15:24 I thought I recognized it from somewhere Jan 16 15:15:28 ;) Jan 16 15:15:40 Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a small panel that display the menu, and have say..."Featured apps" and stuff in the center? Jan 16 15:15:55 I also remember thinking 'haaang on a minute, isn't this a little risky?' when I saw it first time on the sampler Jan 16 15:16:08 Unisian: Preware is a package manager, not an appstore Jan 16 15:16:14 Ahh OK, good point Jan 16 15:16:24 if we get a definite 'NO.' from HP perhaps that can be reconsidered Jan 16 15:16:31 Getting confused now D: Jan 16 15:16:44 basically, whether or not HP will be doing an app store is unknown Jan 16 15:17:04 Are we currently waiting to hear from them, or has the question not be raised? Jan 16 15:17:26 gram is all hush hush Jan 16 15:17:35 so all we have for Ow is Preware, which doesn't fill the commercial requirements for an appstore, but works pretty well in terms of free software Jan 16 15:17:37 i only know what i've talked about with their employee(s) Jan 16 15:17:54 Unisian: basically +1 HaDAk, it's all very secret Jan 16 15:18:21 their website is a mysterious 'GRAM' logo... and that's pretty much all that's known about them Jan 16 15:18:34 well, *i* know more, but i can't say. sorry. Jan 16 15:18:46 Aww :( Way to tease :p Jan 16 15:18:48 until something official is announced. Jan 16 15:18:50 many people have many secrets, tis the way of things :p Jan 16 15:19:03 i'd love to blab, but if i did that, nobody would ever tell me anything. ^^ Jan 16 15:19:17 there was a WOSN article about HP providing services for 'webOS Professional Edition' Jan 16 15:19:30 That's fair enough and I read that too Jan 16 15:19:49 But, I think with WebOS Ports on this side, OWOS will be much better, and free :D Jan 16 15:19:56 exactly :) Jan 16 15:19:58 FOSS ftw Jan 16 15:20:14 well, it'll be better if people start using it and it gets picked up by OEMs Jan 16 15:20:21 otherwise it's a clever project Jan 16 15:20:26 plus we can iterate features faster, if HP are moving to monetise this through carriers then they'll be subject to testing and all that fun Jan 16 15:20:37 I mean, they didn't do well with WebOS with their team, now they're cut it down, and are trying again? Jan 16 15:21:07 Unisian: see the urban dictionary definition of 'apothekerlypse' Jan 16 15:21:21 Or I read all about that :p Jan 16 15:21:25 hehe :P Jan 16 15:21:28 the problem was HP Jan 16 15:21:31 not the product. Jan 16 15:21:32 He really f**ked them tbh Jan 16 15:21:49 palm ran out of money, so in a desperate attempt to save webos, he sold out to the worst possible person Jan 16 15:21:55 yeah, webOS has always had the short end of the market-stick, despite being ridiculously awesome Jan 16 15:21:59 fast forward and here we are Jan 16 15:22:12 open sauce has it's advantages though Jan 16 15:22:23 See, I would be in heaver right now, if Sony had bought WebOS Jan 16 15:22:26 my brother, this morning, tried telling me how awesome and ultra-secure windows phone 8 is. i snickered my ass off. Jan 16 15:22:35 developers world-wide can offer their perspectives, and there are some -serious- smarts in the FOSS community Jan 16 15:22:43 Unisian: i would have shot myself. i HATE sony as a company. Jan 16 15:23:01 Well, windows RT isn't very secure... The other day Microsoft gave the thumbs up on the Jailbreak of the Surface Jan 16 15:23:06 How come you hate Sony? Jan 16 15:23:07 HaDAk: have you seen the 'Error booting OS, please insert your recovery disk' W8 Phone screen? it's hilarious. Jan 16 15:23:08 Unisian: for the way they regard their customers… see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal Jan 16 15:23:17 ShiftyAxel: that's one of the things i linked him LOL Jan 16 15:23:23 he shut up in a damn hurry Jan 16 15:23:27 :) Jan 16 15:23:37 i haven't heard from him the rest of the morning LOL Jan 16 15:24:49 Sony have got better (imo) recently, including winning the OEM of the Year award from XDA :P Jan 16 15:25:06 i remain skeptical Jan 16 15:25:22 That's fair enough :) Jan 16 15:25:24 i still haven't given them any of my money since the rootkit fiasco Jan 16 15:25:37 I've been with Sony for around 7-8 years now :S Jan 16 15:25:54 Well, Sony Ericsson, recently Sony Jan 16 15:26:18 my tech past has a colourful history of vendor loyalty Jan 16 15:26:45 Care to elaborate? Jan 16 15:27:19 HTC, Blackberry, Palm, Toshiba, Blackberry again, back to Palm, Samsung, Samsung, HP, Apple Jan 16 15:27:26 phones/laptops Jan 16 15:27:42 my first palm phone was the treo pro... big mistake Jan 16 15:27:46 i had an instance where i paid $250 for linksys' top of the line soho router. dual channel. 365 day warranty. on day 366, the 2.4ghz radio died. they refused to help. they were aaaaaaaaaaaaaaassholes about it too, so i switched to netgear. never been happier. Jan 16 15:27:53 Ahh, I'd never touch a blackberry Jan 16 15:28:42 my first palm phone was the treo 180. what a piece of shit that was. http://the-gadgeteer.com/2002/03/12/handspring_treo_180_review/ Jan 16 15:29:03 nice :D Jan 16 15:29:13 i also had a blackberry 8330. that was a great phone at the time. suuuuuuuuuuper slow though. http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberry_curve_8330-3594.php Jan 16 15:29:15 mine was a landscape slider windows mobile htc... thing Jan 16 15:29:20 and waaaaay outdated for today's standards Jan 16 15:29:36 I got really tired of blackberry's java OS Jan 16 15:29:48 java is godawful. Jan 16 15:30:01 broke my Pre- with a hammer and a screwdriver... bad bad times Jan 16 15:30:09 intentionally? Jan 16 15:30:14 hell no Jan 16 15:30:22 lol, i was going to say. Jan 16 15:30:31 i felt like such an idiot when i got my pre- Jan 16 15:30:45 release day. i was the only asshole that woke up early and stood in line to get it. T.T Jan 16 15:30:48 I was trying to fix the screen wobbling up and down by tightening the torx screws in the back, stripped them and managed to break it trying to get them out Jan 16 15:31:01 the build quality on that thing was so awful... real shame Jan 16 15:31:45 the OS was let down by the hardware. Jan 16 15:31:49 It seems they had the software, but no good hardware Jan 16 15:31:52 that's the ONLY reason i switched from it originally Jan 16 15:32:07 sssh. he's here now. we can't talk about him. Jan 16 15:32:09 * HaDAk waves at fxspec06 Jan 16 15:32:42 morning fxspec06 Jan 16 15:32:54 hola Jan 16 15:33:04 Unisian: the software wasn't in a great state at that point either to be honest, it's certainly improved Jan 16 15:33:14 how's it going HaDAk ShiftyAxel Jan 16 15:33:22 'nother day in paradise. Jan 16 15:33:38 not bad, not bad, got a call from the computer people today saying they couldn't give me the SSD i wanted, but I could have a slightly better one for free Jan 16 15:33:55 and it should be with me tomorrow or the day after, so a win there Jan 16 15:33:56 Hmm I suppose, I really only got into it at 3.0... You come across any bad practices/stupid code anywhere yet? Jan 16 15:34:08 Unisian: a little bit in places Jan 16 15:34:15 (for instance, the company I work for had 5 foreach loops inside one another, to do what 2 foreachs could) Jan 16 15:34:16 Unisian: the mail app. Jan 16 15:34:32 luna-sysmgr is largely quite good, though it seems arse-backwards until you understand Qt Jan 16 15:34:41 ShiftyAxel: has the "new" mail app been shoved into owo yet? Jan 16 15:35:10 HaDAk: no, we haven't really done anything with it Jan 16 15:35:11 a slightly better one? aka a non ocz one/ Jan 16 15:35:16 So, I take it optimizations are getting hard to come by? Jan 16 15:35:34 fxspec06: I went for a 240Gb Intel 335 in the end, now I'm getting a 256Gb Crucial M4 Jan 16 15:36:03 oh snap! you lucky Jan 16 15:36:24 HaDAk: plus enyo1 doesn't scale so good, so we're aiming to either retrofit the existing one to work acceptably until an enyo2 rewrite can be done Jan 16 15:36:47 fxpsec06: it was something of a rushed decision, but they seem pretty good from reviews and benchmarks i've read online :D Jan 16 15:36:55 ShiftyAxel: ugh. that's right…it wasn't updated to enyo2 when he fixed threading Jan 16 15:36:58 Unisian: eh, everything can be optimized Jan 16 15:37:29 so i think it's a good idea for me to start designating time periods to work on this mail thing else it'll never get done.. today is not good bc friend about 2 come over, but mayb saturday Jan 16 15:37:30 it could be coded in more of a vanilla Qt style, and the launcher is like... totally different code to everything else which makes it a bit of a shock Jan 16 15:37:47 Unisian: the core apps are for the most part the worst coded part of webOS Jan 16 15:38:03 i'm a master procrastinator, else you couldn't tell Jan 16 15:38:12 Do you reckon the launcher will get a re-write to comform to the rest of the code, at some point? Jan 16 15:38:15 * fxspec06 brb Jan 16 15:38:17 enyo1 is meh... the way they coded enyo1 apps was worse... it was like they were half-arsedly making them for phones too but never quite really Jan 16 15:38:29 Unisian: not in the short term I don't imaging Jan 16 15:38:31 *imagine Jan 16 15:38:43 I guess Enyo should be my starting point then, before I start to delve into the Luna-sysmgr Jan 16 15:38:47 and I'm not sure which standard is 'right' Jan 16 15:38:56 Unisian: if web development is your thing, jump right in Jan 16 15:39:04 we need all the enyo2 programmers we can get :) Jan 16 15:39:11 luna is more C++/Q Jan 16 15:39:13 *Qt Jan 16 15:39:27 haha I'll see what I can do... Have a few game ideas too... and everyone knows good, addictive games will bring people in ;) Jan 16 15:39:54 we don't have any 'native' support yet i'm afraid, so said games would need to be in HTML5 Jan 16 15:40:03 (native being PDK and all that) Jan 16 15:40:19 wait, what? Jan 16 15:40:21 we don't have pdk yet? Jan 16 15:40:25 nope Jan 16 15:40:34 I'm sure by the time I've done the work required on any Core APPS then the PDK can't be far off :p Jan 16 15:40:36 the hell Jan 16 15:40:40 different OS, so existing PDK apps can't run Jan 16 15:41:02 and we need the backend stuff to play nicely with the Ow architechture and all that malarkey Jan 16 15:41:18 Unisian: i'd hope so :) Jan 16 15:41:55 nobody's really discussed PDK yet, since we're all focusing on having a working product Jan 16 15:42:27 you can build ipks in the usual build environment afaik Jan 16 15:42:28 I don't think the PDK will matter too much tbf, until we have some stable devices Jan 16 15:42:31 in a strange way, I guess this is what things must have been like for palm in early 2009 :P Jan 16 15:42:51 'gotta get the Pre out! what do you mean 'games'? ship it!' Jan 16 15:43:14 stbuehler: ipks..? we're talking about native apps, aka PDK Jan 16 15:43:27 Which means we can optimise the hell out of the core apps / other additional apps that we decide are required Jan 16 15:43:37 yeah Jan 16 15:43:45 That's a point, what's the Camera situation like on the devices? Jan 16 15:43:57 Non-existant? :p Jan 16 15:44:13 porting them to enyo2 is the first best thing you can do in terms of performance and optimization, it's million miles ahead of enyo1 Jan 16 15:44:19