**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 10 03:00:04 2017 Mar 10 04:28:34 * shiggitay tries out latest LuneOS nightly Mar 10 04:49:35 Sooo I discovered ACL for webOS... though it seems discontinued... is there a DL for it anywhere? Mar 10 04:49:39 Or a Preware feed or anything? Mar 10 04:51:20 Sorry for the off-topic Mar 10 06:03:21 For the bzr dependancy, yes, I didn't find a matching git repo for qtubuntu-camera, and I'd like to avoid a fork on that one Mar 10 06:04:59 shiggitay: I don't know of any link about that one; I never really searched for it though Mar 10 06:05:13 okay Mar 10 06:05:15 And hi Tofe Mar 10 06:06:35 hi :) Mar 10 06:13:57 morning! Mar 10 06:14:08 ACL was garbage.... Mar 10 06:14:30 Idea was nice but implementation was buggy at best Mar 10 06:14:43 And Android 2.x Mar 10 06:15:15 I backed the project, had some licenses but uninstalled it fairly quickly. Mar 10 07:28:15 Herrie, okay Mar 10 07:28:18 heh Mar 10 07:31:28 Android 2.x doesn't look very sexy nowadays... Mar 10 17:32:17 * DougReeder checks in Mar 10 17:38:03 * HaDAk waves at DougReeder Mar 10 17:38:18 lunchtime. i think, since it's friday, i'll just have....beer. Mar 10 17:38:59 * DougReeder smiles. “Not even some chips to go with?” Mar 10 17:39:12 that would take up valuable space for more beer. Mar 10 17:40:54 Have you been following WebAssembly? Mar 10 17:45:02 With the very latest version of FF, you can run the demo at https://mzl.la/webassemblydemo Mar 10 18:00:35 Was there not a nightly posted for March 10th yet? Mar 10 18:00:51 Oh btw happy Mar10 day hahaha (Mario) Mar 10 18:03:27 luneos-dev-image-tenderloin.tar.gz 10-Mar-2017 13:57 70 <-- that can't be the right file size Mar 10 18:04:04 Same goes for the uImage kernel file Mar 10 18:05:23 shiggitay: Nintendo already pushed an add to my Wii U wishing me the same :P Mar 10 18:05:26 *ad Mar 10 18:05:33 lol Mar 10 18:06:18 Sooo yeah how long until LuneOS can load media rich pages like my massive Plex library? <_< Mar 10 18:06:34 I don't mean that to be an "ETA request" Mar 10 18:06:39 Just complaining haha Mar 10 18:07:59 on a particular device? Mar 10 18:08:08 HP TP Mar 10 18:09:19 shiggitay: you could try updating this to Enyo 2: https://github.com/b0bben/plex-enyo-client Mar 10 18:10:05 Ooh Mar 10 18:10:22 I'm no developer though... I'm just an enthusiast Mar 10 18:10:27 ah Mar 10 18:10:50 heh Mar 10 18:10:57 well, maybe someone else can do it Mar 10 18:11:17 I doubt the priority is high Mar 10 18:11:17 I might take a look at it and see how hard it is to update sometime in the future Mar 10 18:11:21 okay Mar 10 18:11:37 not right now, tho'. Having too much fun playing Breath of the Wild on Switch Mar 10 18:11:40 :P Mar 10 18:11:58 You bastid Mar 10 18:12:00 lol Mar 10 18:12:05 I want a Switch <_< Mar 10 18:12:15 I'm loving mine Mar 10 18:12:55 my friend who isn't even a handheld gamer has started to understand the benefits of portability thanks to BotW and the Switch making it so easy Mar 10 18:13:26 Just PM'd you @ GodGinrai Mar 10 18:26:43 Okay guys, so if I want to try out the latest stable build of LuneOS on my Nexus 5 I basically install CM 12.1, let it boot up once, and then reboot to recovery and install the LuneOS zip? Mar 10 18:35:15 beer for lunch was a fantastic idea. Mar 10 18:35:18 just fyi. Mar 10 18:35:39 lol Mar 10 18:39:03 HaDAk: That reminds me... I'm wfh today... I could probably drink some mead Mar 10 18:39:17 i highly recommend viking blod Mar 10 18:39:25 I have some ;) Mar 10 18:39:46 Do you warm yours or drink as-is? Mar 10 18:39:51 as-is Mar 10 18:39:56 for those that are playing the at-home game: https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/dansk-mjod-viking-blod/23988/ Mar 10 18:39:58 That's how I've been doing it Mar 10 18:40:19 i bought a whole bottle once. hadn't even opened it. friends came over and drank the whole bottle. Mar 10 18:40:21 i was upset. Mar 10 18:40:23 $30 USD Mar 10 18:40:32 ouch Mar 10 18:40:39 yeah. Mar 10 18:40:46 at least i'm drunk now. Mar 10 18:40:48 at the office. Mar 10 18:40:49 hahaha Mar 10 18:40:57 i have to demo something i've been working on in an hour too Mar 10 18:41:03 I got mine to celebrate when getting my new job, and have only drank it occasionally with my buddy, so I've still got some ;) Mar 10 18:41:13 lol Mar 10 18:41:13 congratulations! Mar 10 18:41:16 ty Mar 10 18:41:19 where are you working now? what do you do? Mar 10 18:41:21 I got it back in October, tho' :P Mar 10 18:41:31 I'm working for a company called If Then Mar 10 18:41:36 doing web development still Mar 10 18:41:37 IFTTT? Mar 10 18:42:39 if anyone *else* needs a job, i'd be HAPPY to put your resume in here Mar 10 18:42:56 if you DO get hired, i get like $5-10k or something Mar 10 18:43:04 https://www.arbornetworks.com/careers/ Mar 10 18:43:08 so i'd love to get somebody hired Mar 10 18:43:19 cause i could sure use the money right now Mar 10 18:43:23 seeing as how i just bought my first home Mar 10 18:44:06 HaDAk: nope, a different company Mar 10 18:44:13 missed opportunity Mar 10 18:44:29 UX Researcher would be fun. Mar 10 18:44:44 DougReeder: i've sat in the interviews for two candidates Mar 10 18:44:55 Blah Tofe are you here? Mar 10 18:45:08 so that position might be going away soon...if you are seriously interested, give me your resume *now* and i'll walk it over immediately Mar 10 18:45:51 like, literally this minute DougReeder Mar 10 18:46:05 Alas, I have more interest than proper experience or training. Mar 10 18:46:11 bummer Mar 10 18:46:19 :( Mar 10 18:46:28 see anything else that excites you? Mar 10 18:47:27 HaDAk: here's the company I work for now: https://www.ifthen.com/ Mar 10 18:48:04 damnit my N5 running LuneOS stable isn't connecting to WiFi Mar 10 18:49:11 DougReeder: most UX people I've met didn't get proper training for it, and simply had a chance to maneuver into the role Mar 10 18:49:20 [nods] Mar 10 18:50:01 If you're really interested, you might as well send your resume over to HaDAk. Just have him introduce you as someone who he can vouch for as a dev that has an interest in getting into UX Mar 10 18:52:24 Okay I disabled encryption on one of my networks and it connects, but what I wanted to test doesn't work on my N5 nor HPTP Mar 10 18:52:27 damn. Mar 10 18:53:02 DougReeder: worst case scenario, we're growing quickly and hiring JS devs Mar 10 18:53:34 Are you open to remote work? Mar 10 18:54:11 we have a ton of remote devs. Mar 10 18:55:14 Let me type up a cover letter outlining what I’m lookin for. Where should I send it and the resume, then? Mar 10 18:55:22 hkokx@arbor.net Mar 10 18:55:53 if you know python or react, be sure to include that Mar 10 18:57:15 Sorry, neither. Mar 10 18:57:26 no worries. just write up what you've got, and i'll find the best place for it. Mar 10 19:07:54 Damn I went to see how much used HP Touchpads are going for on eBay and I don't think I'd get much for it if I tried to sell mine Mar 10 19:08:29 Yeah, I should have sold my extra Pres years ago. Mar 10 19:08:49 I think I have 6. Mar 10 19:08:56 Oh shit haha Mar 10 19:08:57 why? Mar 10 19:18:21 I needed to test my app on various versions of webOS. Mar 10 19:19:01 The poor Pre+ hardly got used, because I got a Pre2 shortly thereafter. Mar 10 19:20:17 HP gave me the AT&T Pre3 for writing the guest blog post, then I had to buy a Verizon Pre3 to actually use. Mar 10 19:20:36 heh Mar 10 19:20:57 all I have is a VZW Pre3 Mar 10 19:21:17 which I love Mar 10 19:21:23 and still use Mar 10 19:21:53 i have a touchpad and pre2 Mar 10 19:22:05 i don't need either, but i can't sell them on ebay. that'd make me sad. Mar 10 19:22:52 I never supported the Touchpad. I didn't agree with the design decisions put into it Mar 10 19:23:02 i mean, true Mar 10 19:23:05 i just liked having a tablet. Mar 10 19:23:50 I still have yet to get any tablet. The only one I ever considered was the Notion Ink Adam Mar 10 19:24:08 but that ended up poorly executed, so I didn't pick one up Mar 10 19:26:38 The HP Touchpad would have appealed to me much more if it kept the gesture area and did notifications more like it did on the phone Mar 10 19:27:16 Yeah, our TPs gathered dust until we had a kid. Mar 10 19:30:14 GodGinrai: what do you mean by notifications like on the phone? Mar 10 19:31:30 i made TP-style notifications for LuneOS recently :) Mar 10 19:33:38 nizovn: I personally think that sequestering the notifications into a bar that you tap top open was a bad ux decision Mar 10 19:34:10 it wasn't nearly as intuitive as the notification area that literally separated itself from the rest of the display Mar 10 19:34:16 like on the phones Mar 10 19:34:48 *tap to open Mar 10 19:35:13 You have to tap to open on the phones, too. Mar 10 19:35:36 DougReeder: yes, but not in the same way. Mar 10 19:35:51 this just opens a little menu that looks weird and hangs down over things Mar 10 19:36:01 previously, you tapped to expand the size of the notification area Mar 10 19:37:11 I think it would have made much more sense for the notification bar to have existed vertically on the left or right Mar 10 19:37:25 and tapping would expand it for swipe-away actions like on the phones Mar 10 19:38:12 GodGinrai: but then you would have very long notification area on tablet, it looks very ugly in landscape Mar 10 19:38:58 I disagree Mar 10 19:39:10 a black area is hardly ugly Mar 10 19:39:35 Besides, if it bothered you, it would give you an excuse to check your notifications ;) Mar 10 19:41:00 not to mention, it is possible to even hide the black bar so that it appears on command when you want to see what kinds of notifications you have Mar 10 19:41:08 then a second tap would expand it Mar 10 19:45:44 this is TP with phone layout: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5of2fs&s=9 Mar 10 19:46:38 nizovn: that's why I said the bar should be vertical Mar 10 19:47:09 it would be on either the left or right side Mar 10 19:47:14 with the icons falling vertically Mar 10 19:47:28 then tapping it would make it expand inward toward the center of the screen Mar 10 19:47:36 to about the width of the phone's notification area Mar 10 19:48:08 ok, understood Mar 10 19:49:18 we already have statusbar on top, so why do we want to have another vertical bar? Mar 10 19:50:11 Same reason that the phones, which already have a statusbar up top saw reason to have a second horizontal bar at the bottom for notifications Mar 10 19:51:48 i mean we need to have area to show all these notifications icon, we can show them in statusbar on tablets, but on phone there is no spac Mar 10 19:51:52 e Mar 10 19:52:31 Android phones don't seem to have ever had a problem displaying notification icons in that space Mar 10 19:53:24 it's not a matter of space. Mar 10 19:53:34 you mean there are vertical bars on android? Mar 10 19:53:40 Even on windows, notifications are not in the same place as your app menus Mar 10 19:54:24 no, I'msaying that "they have a second horizontal bar because there is no room in the statusbar" is not true because Android did exactly that Mar 10 19:54:49 (used 1 bar for notifications) Mar 10 19:54:53 ok Mar 10 19:55:46 the reason for notifications to be separate is because they have a separate function from your app menu and system menu Mar 10 19:56:20 besides, using a vertical bar allows the tablet experience to more closely match the phone experience Mar 10 19:56:24 i didn't saw second bar on android btw Mar 10 19:56:47 the reason I wrote off the touchpad in the first place was because it threw away a lot of the intuitiveness of the phones Mar 10 19:56:57 Android doesn't have a second bar Mar 10 19:57:01 which is my *point* Mar 10 19:57:29 you can't say that webos used a second bar because there was no room on the statusbar for notifications when Android fit everything into one bar Mar 10 19:58:46 the reason for the second bar was to allow for the notification area to expand Mar 10 19:58:55 since it would be weird if the statusbar did it Mar 10 19:59:40 where you would place banner notifications? Mar 10 20:00:31 I'm not familiar with that term Mar 10 20:01:34 on phone it's a string appearing from the bottom of notification area, containing sms message etc Mar 10 20:02:10 oh yea Mar 10 20:02:20 like when you first receive a message Mar 10 20:02:26 before it becomes an icon? Mar 10 20:03:17 no, its string with icon Mar 10 20:03:31 like this https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/palm-webos/9780596802097/httpatomoreillycomsourceoreillyimages312069.png.jpg Mar 10 20:03:55 ah yes, we're talking about the same thing Mar 10 20:04:07 my point is that that is temporary, and then you see the icons Mar 10 20:04:47 yes Mar 10 20:05:50 as for how to do that, there are a couple of methods I could think of off the top of my head. Mar 10 20:06:34 The sleekest method I can think of would involve it appearing in a bar at the bottom, which then collapses into the icon which falls into place along the vertical notification area Mar 10 20:07:28 ok Mar 10 20:08:03 The nice thing, UX-wise, about that solution is that the animation would lead you to your notification bar, thus teaching you where to look to learn more Mar 10 20:11:34 while opening, vertical bar would require the rest ui to be resized, that is not great (imho) Mar 10 20:11:45 e.g. appmenu would shift Mar 10 20:11:51 that was the standard on the phones Mar 10 20:11:58 There’s actually three distinct, mutually exclusive bits of notification UI Mar 10 20:12:51 Normally you have the “Notification Bar”, which is just a small icon for each dashboard. Mar 10 20:13:38 when dashboards are displayed on a phone, they replace the notification bar. (On a tablet, both are shown) Mar 10 20:13:55 Banner notfications replace the Notificaton Bar. Mar 10 20:14:31 "dashboards" are the larger notifications? Mar 10 20:14:36 Right. Mar 10 20:14:38 k Mar 10 20:14:44 GodGinrai: i mean in case of vertical bar either appmenu or systemmenu position would need to be shifted when notification area is open, on phones it's ok Mar 10 20:14:58 You can have a banner message, without any dashboard. Mar 10 20:16:00 nizovn: that is true if you make the notification bar resize the status bar Mar 10 20:16:03 In general, we want to minimize the # times windows are resized, because that’s slow. Mar 10 20:16:18 nizovn: you could just use the notification bar and status bar to frame the screen Mar 10 20:16:35 then the menus don't move Mar 10 20:17:12 One advange of the TP layout, is that banner messages don’t change the real estate available to cards, and so don’t force a resize. Mar 10 20:17:59 DougReeder: I'm all for function over form. But UX is a different matter. Besides, if phones could handle the resize, a tablet should have been able to just fine as well Mar 10 20:21:30 GodGinrai: by not resizing status bar you mean that open notification area will be just over the rest ui? Mar 10 20:41:15 nizovn: no, I mean that the ui below the statusbar would resize Mar 10 20:41:20 while the statusbar remains the same Mar 10 20:41:32 like frames Mar 10 20:41:34 for a picture Mar 10 20:42:45 sorry for the late reply, was moving my car Mar 10 20:43:05 right now we have appmenu title in statusbar and appmenu below it Mar 10 20:43:33 (when it's open) Mar 10 20:45:54 I’m not sure the phones do handle resizign well. Mar 10 20:46:34 DougReeder: it's never been so bad as to bother me. There are plenty of things on the phone that were slower than the resizing Mar 10 20:46:41 I’ve been trying to demonstrate, but I need a banner message from the background, and I’ can’t locate my demo app that did that. Mar 10 21:01:15 Anyway, whatver UI we have for notification, we need to minimize the number of times a card resize events. Mar 10 21:01:56 …which probably means having notification UI animate in “over” the card, then have one resize even on the card. Mar 10 21:02:34 (This is different than going to card mode. No resize event happens on cards then.) Mar 10 21:12:58 I don't see resize events as detrimental as you seem to Mar 10 21:13:14 especially since that is already the case on phones, where notifications are much more common Mar 10 21:15:04 Cards cannot be resized at 60fps, and anything we animate needs to be 60fps. Mar 10 21:15:32 Anything less than that will soon be seen as amateurish. Mar 10 21:23:45 my 30fps Zelda game certainly doesn't seem amateurish to me Mar 10 21:25:36 People will tolerate slower frame rates if some other part of the experience is very compelling. Mar 10 21:25:52 Notifcations aren’t very compelling. Mar 10 21:26:35 yes, but as is said in magic, the large action hides the small one Mar 10 21:26:43 if you tap a notification bar Mar 10 21:26:45 and it grows Mar 10 21:26:50 you will be focused on that Mar 10 21:26:54 not the resizing app Mar 10 21:27:07 btw PDK apps were not resizable in webOS iirc Mar 10 21:27:20 indeed, they weren't Mar 10 21:27:33 in those cases, you had to go to card mode Mar 10 21:27:41 to view notifications Mar 10 21:28:30 hybrid apps were resizable, tho' Mar 10 21:29:26 ok, i need to go to sleep :) Mar 10 21:29:32 g'night Mar 10 21:29:43 thx Mar 10 21:29:43 Sleep tigh! Mar 10 21:30:47 zzz Mar 10 21:30:51 If a card is resizing for a notification, the card resizning *is* the large action. Mar 10 21:31:57 for the notification bar first appearing, maybe Mar 10 21:31:59 but not the grow Mar 10 21:32:33 if you wanted to improve the experience when the notification bar appears Mar 10 21:32:45 you just need a flashy animation to catch their attention Mar 10 21:32:56 *making* the notification appearing become the large action Mar 10 21:33:21 Notifications are supposed to *not* disrupt using an app. Mar 10 21:33:51 well yes, but you are the one saying that what webos did on all of its phones looks amateurish Mar 10 21:34:33 The low frame rate was tolerable in 2009, because the rest of the UX was so good. Mar 10 21:34:46 Other platforms have largely caught up in UX. Mar 10 21:34:48 of course Mar 10 21:34:51 not really Mar 10 21:35:02 all they've really done is incorporated card ui Mar 10 21:35:07 and even android did that poorly Mar 10 21:35:27 oh, and swipe to get rid of notifications, they incorporated that Mar 10 21:35:57 Other platforms haven’t caught up, but they are good enough for most people. Mar 10 21:36:10 We have much stronger hardware now that should be able to handle the resize at a much faster speed or framerate than the hardware used even on the Pre 3 Mar 10 21:37:26 Mobile hardware is better, but it still cant’ do 60fps resize on typical web pages. Mar 10 21:37:41 The one thing that set webos apart *was* the intuitive UX. If you compromise that for framerate, then you won't win any battles Mar 10 21:38:07 maybe not on today's complex webpages, but for apps it should do just fine Mar 10 21:38:33 As for the complex webpages, more and more companies are getting interested in AMP Mar 10 21:38:37 Web pages are a big part of the UX. Mar 10 21:38:46 which creates much simpler pages which should be easy on resizing Mar 10 21:39:56 I don’t see AMP as something to rely on. Subsetting the web platform has been tried before and failed. Mar 10 21:39:59 no, they are not. They are products that each have their own UX values Mar 10 21:41:41 I'm not suggesting we rely on AMP Mar 10 21:41:47 I'm merely making an observation Mar 10 21:42:26 after having worked at 2 different companies that were starting research into AMP Mar 10 21:44:35 The key point is that users will often be viewing a web page when a notification arrives, we do have control over the number of resize events, and we don’t have control of how well the web page handles them. Mar 10 21:46:07 I can see having a single resize event for now, with a Tweaks flag to enable continuous resizing, and changeing the default flag value when we observer that typical web pages handle continuous resing well. Mar 10 21:46:26 I think you are focusing too much on the browser, honestly. Mar 10 21:46:36 Using a browser is useful Mar 10 21:46:42 and certainly, we'd like to do it well Mar 10 21:46:49 but a phone is a phone Mar 10 21:46:58 the most important thing should be communication Mar 10 21:47:03 how you initiate it Mar 10 21:47:06 how you receive it Mar 10 21:47:08 I don’t know our apps will handle continous resize much better. Mar 10 21:47:12 and how you view and interact with it Mar 10 21:47:38 Apps and web pages use the same technologies. Mar 10 21:47:50 They do Mar 10 21:48:11 but webpages are more often poorly built, with the desktop's abundance of resources in mind Mar 10 21:48:30 whereas apps are designed with the resources of the hardware they are to be released on in mind Mar 10 21:48:52 That helps a little. Mar 10 21:56:54 But right now, Testr is janky when a banner notification is displayed. Mar 10 22:23:34 shiggitay: pong Mar 10 22:23:56 shiggitay: wifi *should* work on N5, I've used it like yesterday to try plex Mar 10 22:24:04 Yeah it does Mar 10 22:24:09 But not with enc on Mar 10 22:24:20 I turned my AES WPA2 off and it works fine Mar 10 22:24:42 oh, ok, might be a wpa_supplicant issue then Mar 10 22:24:54 yeah Mar 10 22:25:06 It's just as buggy as the TP build lol Mar 10 22:25:37 And Plex doesn't fully load my library once I log in Mar 10 22:25:49 Like, I can log in and launch, but nothing shows up Mar 10 22:26:05 mmh ok Mar 10 22:26:26 for AES WPA2 I'm a bit curious, because I think it's what I have at home Mar 10 22:26:37 Any changes you make to the n5 port won't effect the TP port will it? Mar 10 22:27:27 ah, I'm only WPA-PSK Mar 10 22:27:30 This would be awesome to have a LuneOS phone and a LuneOS tablet Mar 10 22:27:32 Ahah. Mar 10 22:27:40 This/that Mar 10 22:27:40 w/e Mar 10 22:27:50 shiggitay: it depends on what bit is changed Mar 10 22:27:54 Ah ok Mar 10 22:28:01 Well like what would be needed for Plex to work Mar 10 22:28:04 for wifi, it'll be a common change I think Mar 10 22:28:07 like.. fully work Mar 10 22:28:19 for Plex, I guess it's a matter of upgrading Qt Mar 10 22:28:31 therefore upgrading WebEngine, so Chromium engine Mar 10 22:28:42 WiFi okay Mar 10 22:28:44 Erm wat Mar 10 22:29:10 Well, Plex is just a website right? Mar 10 22:29:27 A streaming service/site Mar 10 22:29:57 ah the issue is about streaming the video itself? Mar 10 22:31:48 Well after I log in I can't see anything Mar 10 22:31:53 Well log in and launch Mar 10 22:33:19 What do ou observe with the web inspector: http://webos-ports.org/wiki/Luna_Next_Remote_WebApplication_Debugging Mar 10 22:33:43 mmmh ok, strange; might need some investigation - as suggested by DougReeder Mar 10 22:35:52 Oh, sorry, web inspector doesn’t work on web pages. Mar 10 22:36:54 ah, right, the environment variable isn't set Mar 10 22:37:46 bed time for me, though - see you! Mar 10 22:38:00 * DougReeder waves goodnight to Tofe Mar 10 22:38:12 Bai Tofe :) Mar 10 22:39:42 Do you see any errors in the system log? Mar 10 22:41:53 At the device command line, run Mar 10 22:41:54 journalctl -a -f Mar 10 23:17:45 DougReeder, are you an HPTP LuneOS maintainer? Mar 10 23:17:57 Since Tofe is the maintainer for the Nexus 5 Mar 11 01:42:42 * shiggitay slaps DougReeder Mar 11 01:49:30 Haha hi DougReederPhone Mar 11 01:50:32 Hey. Mar 11 01:51:44 No, I mastly handle apps and sevices. Mar 11 01:57:18 okay **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 11 03:00:01 2017