**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 02 03:00:00 2017 Nov 02 07:00:04 So, I'm a bit fuzzy on the history of Web OS Nov 02 07:00:28 I don't recall Palm ever releasing a Web OS device before they folded and sold web OS to HP. Nov 02 07:01:09 I do recall HP putting out a tablet for a very brief time, before marking down the price, which led to people snapping them up en masse and selling them at a significant markup on EBay if they managed to get a large number of them to sell. Nov 02 07:01:24 But did HP actually open the entire Web OS codebase up for people to port to different systems? Nov 02 07:01:39 I'm definitely interested in trying it out on a Pi, if only to see what it's all about. Nov 02 07:02:02 It has been so long that I forgot all of the previews and such that I read about it, since I figured that I would never have a chance to run it. Nov 02 07:02:14 It sort of seemed to me to be the OS/2 of tablet OSes Nov 02 07:02:44 But the fact that it has been ported to the R. Pi 3 hardware is both fascinating and inviting. Nov 02 07:03:04 Is there something in the wiki that will give me a timeline of the whole life of WebOS? Nov 02 07:03:21 I guess Wikipedia would have a summary of some kind, but I'd like to know the real nitty gritty. Nov 02 07:03:47 Because I don't generally consider HP to be as "open source" as they claim to be, at least not where x86_64/AMD64 machines are concerned. Nov 02 09:00:09 Morning! Nov 02 09:01:42 MrBusiness: welcome to Web OS - or welcome to LuneOS in these days Nov 02 09:02:59 One remaining active forum is http://forums.webosnation.com to discuss all the history and future of webOS/LuneOS Nov 02 09:04:04 MrBusiness: please also check out https://pivotce.com/ Nov 02 09:07:29 Yes, HP has open sourced webOS several years back. this is about the software OS - not the hardware AFAIK. Nov 02 09:09:23 Not sure about some hardware related drivers (graphics ..) but the open source released version was runable on an emulator (VirtualBox) at least. Nov 02 09:10:20 These days LuneOS is a much advanced version of webOS - not sure to what percentage is still based on original open source code from HP Nov 02 09:19:20 ah Nov 02 09:19:25 Well, it'll be interesting to try Nov 02 09:19:33 so, is the whole OS made up of HTML and JavaScript? Nov 02 09:19:40 save the really low-level business? Nov 02 09:19:52 I remember reviews saying that it was a great UX Nov 02 09:19:59 Guess I'll just have to give it a whirl. Nov 02 09:39:00 MrBusiness: here was the architecture of OpenWebOS, which the version HP opensourced back in 2011: https://iicybersecurity.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/openwebos-architecture.jpg Nov 02 09:41:30 Most of it is still correct today, but we upgrade some of the bricks: Qt4 -> Qt5, WebKit -> WebEngine (now based on chromium engine), hardware drivers are now access through Android drivers (with Halium), and some of the core apps have been rewritten in Qt/QML Nov 02 09:42:51 The UX has been kept - that's a bit the whole point of the project :) Nov 02 09:46:37 Morning! Nov 02 09:52:17 Morning :) Nov 02 09:59:05 Are all of the nastier google bits removed from Chromium, ala Brave? Nov 02 09:59:40 I do not trust Chrome or Chromium at all. If I want to use something based on that codebase, I use Opera or Brave Nov 02 10:01:35 MrBusiness: only the engine bits are used, not the UI Nov 02 10:01:59 well, those are the parts that worry me more Nov 02 10:02:08 lemmie load Brave and see if I can give an example Nov 02 10:03:04 okay, here we go Nov 02 10:03:07 google widevine Nov 02 10:03:13 is that yanked out? Nov 02 10:03:29 Does it have Adobe Flash compatibility of any sort? Nov 02 10:03:42 What about HTML5 and WebGL? Nov 02 10:05:14 MrBusiness: there won't be much difference with Brave: you can add widevine plugin (but we can't distribute it), flash can be added too (same comment), HTML/WebGL/CSS/whatever is the same as in Chromium 56. Nov 02 10:06:09 Basically, if you use Brave, I don't see why you would be more worried with WebEngine Nov 02 10:07:08 MrBusiness: Like Tofe said: You can install the plugins for Flash & WideVine if you want, but we cannot :P Nov 02 10:08:42 ah, okay Nov 02 10:08:46 well, I wouldn't, frankly Nov 02 10:08:49 they're both cancers Nov 02 10:09:12 I mean, outdated flash played a pretty significant role in my getting hacked Nov 02 10:09:31 I do agree, but I'm not everyone, so we have to let the possibility to the user Nov 02 10:09:34 that and an old version of PHPBB, aka some really shit forum software prone to SQL injections. Nov 02 10:10:15 Eh, my worries over Chrome and Chromium are mostly based on ignorance Nov 02 10:10:25 MrBusiness: https://pivotce.com/2017/10/11/luneos-browser-how-to-sideload-flash-widevine-plugins-netflix-amazon-youtube-red/ Nov 02 10:10:28 I feel like there's some deeply sinister shit in those code-bases Nov 02 10:10:38 Disabled by default, but in case you want to watch Netflix etc you can opt to install them Nov 02 10:10:48 I have no netflix Nov 02 10:11:08 I was thinking of getting a TorGuard VPN account though. Nov 02 10:11:12 MrBusiness: it's a complex code base, but frankly it's not that bad either. Nov 02 10:11:13 Just saying ;) Nov 02 10:11:18 That's how my friend does most of his torrenting. Nov 02 10:11:36 Well, either way, I'm certainly going to try this OS Nov 02 10:11:39 Tofe: Bluetooth icons now behave after the import for me ;) Nov 02 10:11:46 I.e. when BT is off it doesn't show the icon anymor e:P Nov 02 10:11:51 Herrie|Laptop: ah, good! Nov 02 10:11:57 if only because I believe that it will be quite different from anything that I have used up to this point Nov 02 10:12:08 unless Chromium OS stole ideas from Web OS Nov 02 10:12:58 I've been tempted to get a Chromebook, if only to try Coreboot and Libreboot and install some lightweight distro on the main SSD and then link that to an SSD in an enclosure to load more OSes Nov 02 10:13:11 MrBusiness: Got a Chromebook for my wife recently. Quite liking it Nov 02 10:13:20 and then maybe lay down another, cheap-shit SSD for use as swap/temp space. Nov 02 10:13:37 Was a premium Asus C302, good value for money and suits her needs Nov 02 10:13:38 Yeah. I wanna get one that has good ratings on the Q ubesOS HCL Nov 02 10:13:58 Feels very premium & can install Android apps which is a plus Nov 02 10:14:01 even though I think Chromebooks are too treacly to provide a good QOS environment Nov 02 10:14:17 but I'm not keeping Chromium OS Nov 02 10:14:36 I want the Googs as much out of my life as I can get them Nov 02 10:15:07 get my own webspace, my own smtp server, and maybe one other email account that is administered by some company offering strong privacy-oriented email Nov 02 10:15:41 and then write a script to generate complex receive-only email addresses that I can use for account recovery so that they aren't tied back to my new addresses Nov 02 10:16:31 along with a business phone and a "plausible deniability" phone that I would use as the recovery number for what gmail accounts I end up keeping. Nov 02 10:16:59 Probably use Ting for both Nov 02 10:17:12 well, maybe T-Mobile for the business phone Nov 02 10:17:35 if I end up getting a lot of calls from prospective customers, the Ting bill could be nasty Nov 02 10:18:13 and then I'll keep my regular AT&T phone as my phone for just contacting my friends and family Nov 02 10:18:39 I made a whole separate google account for the phone after the hack thing Nov 02 10:19:06 as I had concerns that some stupid app my ex-roommate downloaded onto my phone was probably at least partially responsible for the tap Nov 02 10:19:55 right before I ripped that GN3 to shreds and threw it in a safe with the battery out of it, it made a weird beeping noise at particular points in conversations. Only I could hear it. Nov 02 10:20:11 And I was having to deal with the cops trying to get some property returned to me Nov 02 10:20:25 and based on how the cop spoke, he seemed to know more than he should Nov 02 10:20:58 eventually I'd like to see if I can hook up a trunking scanner to a computer and Wireshark the signals from the scanner Nov 02 10:21:26 as well as try to listen in on the police band to find out what sort of shit is in progress. Probably just a lot of 187s Nov 02 10:21:53 This city usually makes it into the top 10 list of most violent US cities. Nov 02 10:22:53 Birmingham, AL likes to pretend that racism and segregation are in its past, but frankly I'd say it's all just as bad as it has ever been Nov 02 10:24:47 may be getting my channels confused with the ZoneMinder channel Nov 02 10:24:58 been awake for a long time Nov 02 10:25:08 MrBusiness: Maybe you should consider moving ;) Nov 02 10:25:19 can't Nov 02 10:25:22 I'm too poor Nov 02 10:25:29 and I've been unemployed for 3 years Nov 02 10:25:34 only 3 ways out Nov 02 10:26:24 1) start an LLC here and work that thing, throwing every possible money-making scheme at the wall until I get a good set that sticks and earns me some profits that I can invest into some good stocks and no-load indexed mutual funds Nov 02 10:27:02 2) wait for my Father to die and pray that my inheritance is enough to buy a house of 3-4 stories in PDX, Oregon, such that I can rent out a few floors and keep the basement and top floor for myself Nov 02 10:27:07 garage too if it has one Nov 02 10:27:46 or 3) take the GRE and pass, or, improbably, pass and get a good grade, then find one other person to write me a letter of recommendation for a graduate program Nov 02 10:28:14 Ideally I'd like to go to PSU and get an MS in Computer Graphics with a certificate in Computer Security Nov 02 10:28:33 this has gotten offtopic fairly quickly lol Nov 02 10:28:51 sorry, I have a tendency to cause that to happen with my rambling Nov 02 10:29:24 anyway, if I do well enough to qualify as a PhD candidate, then I guess I'd look at trying to get a PhD in computer graphics, as well as possibly an MFA Nov 02 10:29:32 at which point Nov 02 10:29:37 i could be a teacher :/ Nov 02 10:30:19 which isn't really an aspiration of mine, though I like to think that I would probably make an okay teacher, since I have no fear of public speaking and my bizarre personality tends to hold a crowd Nov 02 10:30:44 so... are you going to try to get WebOS running? Nov 02 10:30:48 though for the PhD I might see fit to pursue the PhD at some other school Nov 02 10:30:53 I mean, yeah Nov 02 10:30:58 as soon as I buy some Pi 3s Nov 02 10:31:16 I only have 1st gen B+s and the original Pi Bs Nov 02 10:31:25 well, maybe one original Nov 02 10:31:26 MrBusiness: You can get a cheap HP Touchpad off eBay as well ;) Nov 02 10:32:13 Yeah, but I'd probably have to make another EBay account. And the seller would have to be amenable to a money order or cashier's check sent overnight with delivery confirmation and signature service. Nov 02 10:32:29 Because I'm not letting PayPal near my bank account. Heard too many horror stories. Nov 02 10:32:39 ... Nov 02 10:32:56 Granted, I will need one eventually if I intend to collect the 4 70's and 80's home computers that I want to lay hands on. Nov 02 10:33:08 So I suppose it will have to happen eventually. Nov 02 10:33:15 I only used EBay once in my life Nov 02 10:33:39 I won a Gamecube with a ton of games, controllers, and memory cards for about $192.00 USD Nov 02 10:33:43 not bad Nov 02 10:34:22 I just went in at the last minute and added the bare minimum I thought would be suitable to eclipse all the other people who would plunk down an extra cent or dollar at the last minute. Nov 02 10:34:36 That person was fine with the money order thing, so that's what we did, and it worked out well. Nov 02 10:34:46 Dude, please try to stay on topic lol Nov 02 10:34:47 I even got the relatively rare GC Component cables Nov 02 10:35:07 What do HP touchpads go for, anyway? Nov 02 10:35:19 Also, I was planning to make a 7" Pi 3 tablet Nov 02 10:35:31 ideally with a stylus if the screen will support one Nov 02 10:36:08 that might be a good LuneOS medium Nov 02 10:36:15 not to mention Nov 02 10:36:19 the touchpad is so old by now Nov 02 10:36:26 I'd probably have to find a replacement LiOn Nov 02 10:37:33 hey, brave remembered that DDG search I did concerning building unorthodox voxel & ray/path/cone tracers on FPGAs Nov 02 10:38:26 have to go through that and gank all the pdf files later. Nov 02 10:38:30 but for now Nov 02 10:38:31 let's see Nov 02 10:38:33 hmm Nov 02 10:38:57 yeah, a lot of these are pretty cheap Nov 02 10:39:08 a far cry from the situation when HP pulled them from the shelves Nov 02 10:39:40 and people stormed into their local computer/tablet stores and bought up the marked down touchpads en masse and sold them at a huge premium Nov 02 10:40:14 I still forget why HP gave up on the Touchpad and WebOS so quickly. I guess they had some sales target they wanted to meet within X days but didn't. Nov 02 10:40:19 Well, that and it's HP. Nov 02 10:40:48 Not really my favorite computer manufacturer, though an ex-friend of mine holds that they make more environmentally friendly computers than most other companies. Nov 02 10:41:02 I have never bothered to attempt to substantiate that. Nov 02 10:41:16 woah, it had a wireless touchpad charger? Nov 02 10:41:26 Is it the same Qi wireless tech that Samsungs use? Nov 02 10:41:44 oh, hey, here's a double and triple set of batteries Nov 02 10:42:04 maybe this is one of those tablets akin to the Toshiba Thrive where the back of the case comes off. Nov 02 12:00:37 MrBusiness: It has proprietary wireless charging Nov 02 12:00:48 BAtteries are still pretty fine after all this time to be honest Nov 02 12:00:56 I have no issues with the ones i have laying around Nov 02 12:13:05 do they have any CMOS button-cell batteries Nov 02 12:13:14 idk if you noticed but he left Nov 02 12:13:31 frankly, the likelihood of a given battery working has a good bit to do with whether or not the machine has been plugged in recently Nov 02 12:13:43 ah Nov 02 12:13:44 oh well Nov 02 12:13:56 I'll see about setting myself up an email account. Nov 02 12:13:57 er Nov 02 12:14:00 Ebay account Nov 02 12:14:22 or resurrecting my old account, assuming it hasn't been deactivated and deleted after a decade Nov 02 12:14:39 come to think of it, the email it was associated with was deleted when AOL finally shut AIM down. Nov 02 12:14:48 well, that may still be yet to come Nov 02 12:14:58 I forget if they said Oct 15th of Nov 15th Nov 02 12:15:11 I should probably check, and forward any saved mails from my youth. Nov 02 12:15:41 I guess enough people are canceling their ancient AOL subscriptions that they can't continue just living off those ancient subscriptions Nov 02 12:15:52 for a truly inferior and boxed-in internet experience Nov 02 12:17:25 Wonder if my Toshiba Thrive can be rooted and made to install an alternate Android Nov 02 12:17:57 my old man gave me his Samsung GN 2 10.1, onto which I was considering loading Replicant or some other free/libre Android Nov 02 12:18:08 this still seems offtopic from WebOS... Nov 02 12:18:13 indeed Nov 02 12:18:19 just got to thinking about tablet machines Nov 02 12:18:28 Here's a question about LuneOS Nov 02 12:18:35 what sort of music player does it have, if any? Nov 02 12:19:18 I was thinking perhaps I'd use LuneOS for my forthcoming 7" Pi tablet that I want to install a nice sound card on and use as an mp3/FLAC/ogg player in my car. Nov 02 12:19:34 Since I just recently discovered how to use to Aux feature on the stock radio. Nov 02 12:51:58 Tofe: Interesting site: https://letsenhance.io/ Can try this for upscaling some of our image assets Nov 02 12:52:13 https://petapixel.com/2017/10/31/website-uses-ai-enhance-photo-csi-style/ Nov 02 12:56:22 MrBusiness: There are plenty of legacy webOS players that would work Nov 02 12:56:31 We'll be having our own at some point too Nov 02 12:57:01 interesting Nov 02 12:57:27 are these legacy players things made by HPand the Web OS community when it was WebOS? Nov 02 12:57:43 Or are they ports of other FOSS music players? Nov 02 13:00:28 HP & webOS community Nov 02 13:04:32 Stuff like: https://www.phonearena.com/image.php?m=Articles.Images&f=name&id=42724 Nov 02 13:44:03 Tofe: You saw the email on the QTWebEngine mailing list? Nov 02 13:44:10 Isn't that one of the things we patch at our end? Nov 02 13:44:25 "Check failed: NamespaceUtils::DenySetgroups(). : Permission denied" Nov 02 13:45:33 Herrie|Laptop: no, I didn't see, but I'm not sure I'm in the ML Nov 02 13:45:44 ah yes I am Nov 02 13:45:55 Just came in a few mins ago Nov 02 13:49:33 It looks like an issue with his kernel, but I don't know on what machine he built it Nov 02 13:52:58 Tofe: Couldn't this be the PID namespace stuff that you added to ours? Nov 02 14:25:05 It's not the same error message, but why not Nov 02 14:26:50 Tofe: Ah OK Nov 02 14:57:38 Tofe: I have a question ... regarding well qemu.. I wonder if you do know a way of forcing qemu to use specific screensize? (asking because you do have qemu images for LuneOS) Nov 02 14:59:42 bshah: You mean resolution of the VBOX itself? Nov 02 15:00:42 Herrie|Laptop: yeah.. (basically I am trying to boot plasma mobile qemu image with potrait resolution :P.. and failing so far) Nov 02 15:02:19 We supply an ovf, but it seems we don't hardcode the resolution there. Nov 02 15:02:20 https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/blob/pyro/meta-luneos/recipes-core/images/luneos-emulator-appliance/luneos-emulator.ovf Nov 02 15:02:35 Resolution in our Luna Next Cardshell is determined by our machine specific config Nov 02 15:02:40 Let me find it Nov 02 15:03:07 bshah: that's done by vesafb or something like that Nov 02 15:03:51 https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/blob/master/meta-luneos/conf/distro/include/luneos.inc#L97 Nov 02 15:07:01 Tofe: I guess we should clean these up a bit? https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/tree/webOS-ports/master/conf Nov 02 15:07:16 Since we have the same in https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/tree/pyro/meta-luneos/recipes-webos/luna-sysmgr-conf/luna-sysmgr-conf now? Nov 02 15:07:31 Herrie|Laptop: yes, that's something we never did Nov 02 15:07:41 Tofe: OK let me try that shortly Nov 02 15:08:15 Tofe: But this is what we use to determine resolution for display in Luna-next right? Nov 02 15:08:19 I.e. We have https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/blob/webOS-ports/master/conf/luna.conf as default Nov 02 15:08:34 Specifically https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/blob/webOS-ports/master/conf/luna.conf#L30 Nov 02 15:08:41 And then override values where needed Nov 02 15:09:53 I.e. for qemu we don't DisplayWidth and DisplayHeight so it'll use the luna.conf values, however for our other targets like Hammerhead we override them with actual resolution Nov 02 15:11:51 Herrie|Laptop: not sure if these values can actually change what's specified for uvesafb Nov 02 15:12:19 Tofe: Also not sure, but that's how it works for our targets in general right? Nov 02 15:13:37 yes Nov 02 15:14:08 Though I wouldn't be surprised if only one resolution would be accepted by the hwcomposer Nov 02 15:56:51 hello all Nov 02 15:57:55 EricBlade: Hi Nov 02 18:59:20 Tofe: The luna-sysmgr conf cleanup is a little tricky because luna-sysmgr-common, luna-next and luna-next-cardshell use some of it's files as well. I'll try to find those references and add them to a readme for documentation and reference. Nov 02 18:59:45 So will take me a little time to grep around etc ;-) Nov 02 19:25:51 Herrie|TP: ok, well spotted indeed Nov 02 19:29:06 Tofe: You have clues as to where else might be used/ Nov 02 19:29:09 ? Nov 02 19:29:51 no, I didn't even know it would be tricky to cleanup the duplicate .conf files in there Nov 02 19:30:24 how is it used by cardshell, for instance? Nov 02 19:33:56 We use it for launcher layout for example Nov 02 19:34:02 I'm not looking only at the machine ones Nov 02 19:34:09 Also other stuff in there Nov 02 19:34:43 but we use it at runtime Nov 02 19:34:58 I don't see why we couldn't remove the .conf that are duplicated anyway Nov 02 19:35:45 Tofe: Yeah, but it loads from it ;) Nov 02 19:36:08 yes, but the .conf is installed by the recipe Nov 02 19:36:41 so it overwrites the one in the repository Nov 02 19:36:46 Let me check Nov 02 19:38:17 https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/blob/pyro/meta-luneos/recipes-webos/luna-sysmgr-conf/luna-sysmgr-conf.bb#L19 Nov 02 19:40:05 (btw, this comment https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/blob/pyro/meta-luneos/recipes-webos/luna-sysmgr-conf/luna-sysmgr-conf.bb#L24 is now useless, the corresponding code has been removed; that was one benefit of having machine specific files on the recipe side) Nov 02 19:41:04 Tofe:https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/blob/webOS-ports/master/conf/default-launcher-page-layout.json is referenced by https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-next-cardshell/blob/a9a33074a67a1e9897f1666c367ccaa799a85168/qml/LaunchBar/TabApplicationModel.qml#L21 Nov 02 19:41:10 It's one of the others ;) Nov 02 19:41:16 And there are a few more Nov 02 19:41:26 And a lot of small config files for old QT sysmgr Nov 02 19:41:32 SO want to clean them all up a bit Nov 02 19:41:48 but this one isn't platform specific Nov 02 19:41:59 Stuff like https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/blob/webOS-ports/master/conf/defaultPreferences-broadway.txt Nov 02 19:42:02 Tofe: No Nov 02 19:42:08 there are only 3 of them: https://github.com/webOS-ports/meta-webos-ports/blob/pyro/meta-luneos/recipes-webos/luna-sysmgr-conf/luna-sysmgr-conf.bb#L14 Nov 02 19:42:16 I'm just looking to cleanup luna-sysmgr while i'm at it Nov 02 19:42:36 Stuff like this we also don't need: https://github.com/webOS-ports/luna-sysmgr/blob/webOS-ports/master/conf/launcher3/launcher_icon_layoutsettings.conf Nov 02 19:43:18 I was only talking about the platform specific ones, for the cleanup; the rest are not duplicates, and can very well be used by other parties yes Nov 02 23:15:20 * FYI: I was trying the latest qemux86 testing image 499 - and this works as well as previous testing images - as far as I can see. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 03 03:00:02 2017