**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 09 02:59:57 2010 Oct 09 03:01:13 rwhitby, WOR and PreCentral posted stuff :) Oct 09 03:02:04 altho WOR forgets that the Pre is 320x480 Oct 09 03:15:45 http://www.technovia.co.uk/2010/08/just-how-bad-is-flash-on-android.html <- wow :p Oct 09 03:16:45 given the guy is using it on 11n wifi with a 25mb FIOS connection, the loads are bad Oct 09 03:32:47 dawm: silly WOR Oct 09 03:32:49 * sugardave thinks he has solved the main problem with the timezone calculations. Oct 09 03:36:47 time travel can be tricky Oct 09 03:38:20 meh, not when your used to it Oct 09 03:41:36 depends on how much plutonium you have access to Oct 09 03:41:56 enough Oct 09 03:42:48 mine always burns out around 300 years travel, or every 2 parallel universe Oct 09 05:02:15 ooh mobile hotspot? boo not available for your carrier Oct 09 05:02:41 is it popping up in the catalog again? Oct 09 05:03:00 not in my catalog but i went to the app url and the app cat said no way :P Oct 09 05:03:09 heh Oct 09 05:03:23 I installed it on my Sprint Pixi once when the catalog was being weird and showing it to everyone lol Oct 09 05:03:27 it didn't work too well :T Oct 09 12:15:30 I recently got an at&t dev phone to replace my sprint loaner. For some reason, this phone will not let me purchase apps and cannot see any PDK apps in the catalog even though it is on 1.4.5. I can run my own PDK apps directly though. Is this a profile issue or a device issue? Oct 09 12:29:41 hi Oct 09 12:30:06 how did you activate that dev phone? Oct 09 12:30:22 with devicetool.jar? Oct 09 12:30:30 I used meta-doctor Oct 09 12:30:40 and then your ran first-use? Oct 09 12:30:44 correct Oct 09 12:30:52 hmm Oct 09 12:30:56 it should work then Oct 09 12:31:02 unless something went wrong Oct 09 12:31:16 right, I did the same thing on the sprint phone and it works fine Oct 09 12:31:17 i'm using a verizon dev device the same way (over wifi) Oct 09 12:31:43 I think I may try doctoring again and creating a new palm profile Oct 09 12:31:45 did you try to create a new profile? or did you log on to your old profile? Oct 09 12:31:52 yeah Oct 09 12:32:12 I was hoping to avoid that since I've purchased apps on my profile Oct 09 12:32:17 oh Oct 09 12:32:49 i guess you could go through /var/log/messages and see if you see errors when you try to purchase Oct 09 12:33:17 well, that can't hurt, I'll take a peak Oct 09 12:33:31 what happens if you try to buy something? Oct 09 12:34:15 I get error PMT03022 which doesn't exist on google Oct 09 12:34:36 maybe you can get some more insight from the log Oct 09 12:34:54 did you look in the developer.palm.com forums? Oct 09 12:36:12 Yeah, I searched them pretty extensively, found 2 similar threads and emailed chuq Oct 09 12:36:29 the /var/log/messages error just says purchase failed Oct 09 12:36:48 no feedback from palm in the forums? Oct 09 12:37:51 In the previous 2 cases, it sounded like some issue with their profile. Just surprised more developers haven't hit this. The main issue is I can't browse to my published apps in the catalog. Oct 09 12:38:15 you can't see them? Oct 09 12:39:00 If I browse using preware I can "see them" but when I select one it claims I don't have the correct os installed. But installing them manually confirms that I do and that they run just fine. Oct 09 12:39:18 strange Oct 09 12:39:36 fubar more like it Oct 09 12:39:43 at&t is on 1.4.5? Oct 09 12:39:52 yeah Oct 09 12:40:01 guess i missed that Oct 09 12:40:07 as of sept. 24 Oct 09 12:42:28 bbl Oct 09 12:55:38 Win phone 7 launching Oct 09 12:55:59 Qq Oct 09 12:56:06 how well does it fly ? Oct 09 12:57:28 With over 2000 applications Oct 09 12:58:01 are you predicting it will be the end of all other smartphone OS's ? Oct 09 12:59:48 I think it will do quite well Oct 09 13:00:20 competition is good for us, I'm exited Oct 09 13:00:40 indeed competition got us to where we are today Oct 09 13:01:11 win7 phones will still have large enterprise share Oct 09 13:01:34 i honestly thought bb dominated that market Oct 09 13:01:35 but for everyday joe's, android and iphone will do very well Oct 09 13:02:00 if you have exchange at work, you prolly have a w-mobile Oct 09 13:02:03 this is a really interesting step for Microsoft. They are simultaneously hitting enterprise and also entering the handheld gaming market. Oct 09 13:02:21 competing with Nintendo and iPhone simultaneously Oct 09 13:02:33 I'm rooting for them Oct 09 13:02:45 are they trying to take on too many markets at the same time without having a primary focus? Oct 09 13:03:28 xbox is successful, wm in the enterprise is successful, why wouldn't the combination be? I'm not sure Oct 09 13:04:00 I talked with a dev at work who went to the wp7 conference and he said he was really impressed with the feel of the OS Oct 09 13:04:18 he said he'd take it over his iphone4 Oct 09 13:04:26 how has his experience been with developing on it? Oct 09 13:04:35 s/on/for/ Oct 09 13:05:21 We both love it. If you're from the .NET world, it's really no different. I honestly think the Microsoft model is superior to other GUI methods. You don't waste time writing the boring stuff. Oct 09 13:06:19 so it's just C# for the most part ? Oct 09 13:06:23 I spend half my time coding boring interface components on iphone, android and webos. In .NET you just drag/drop the gui together but have access to the auto-generated code if needed. This is definitely the future, something that Ares is trying to mimic. Oct 09 13:06:33 yep Oct 09 13:06:51 so your experience with Ares has been less than stellar UI wise ? Oct 09 13:07:25 I like Ares, it needs a lot of work but I try to use it heavily. I'm just frustrated that it has had the same bugs for so long. Oct 09 13:07:40 how often does it get updated, do you know ? Oct 09 13:08:16 I wish I knew, I don't think it has been updated for awhile. I'm hoping 2.0 brings with it some updates to Ares. Oct 09 13:08:43 Palm really needs a public facing bugzilla for things like Ares Oct 09 13:08:46 do you think they're trying too hard to put everything in the context of a browser ? Oct 09 13:09:50 well, one advantage of the browser is that I can take my dev tools with me anywhere. It's nice being able to code from my mac, my linux netbook, my windows machine and the library computer. On the flip side, it sucks to not be able to work when internet is down. Oct 09 13:10:48 it would be nice to be able to get a local working copy of ares, right? and then just manage your local projects that way Oct 09 13:10:57 then when the internet is back, ping out to check for new hotness Oct 09 13:11:05 exactly Oct 09 13:11:28 do you know how web pages work like that now? google gears did something like that, right ? Oct 09 13:11:45 if i have no connection, and i go to a webpage .. does the browser check any local stores? Oct 09 13:12:17 honestly i wish that's how google maps worked on the phone since it seems to download itself every time you run it Oct 09 13:12:28 yeah, it depends on the app, I've seen web-based photo tools that can run offline no problem. I think google gears is one of the big ones but there are others Oct 09 13:13:03 I think the demos I saw were at Google IO, so probably used google gears. Oct 09 13:14:30 Do you develop for webos? Oct 09 13:14:45 no, i'm too dumb .. i just have an interest in it Oct 09 13:15:04 haha, that's a bit harsh Oct 09 13:15:17 how difficult would it be to write a helper/wrapper page locally which does exactly what we're talking about ? Oct 09 13:15:39 check for ares, and if a DNS times out, load everything from a local store? Oct 09 13:16:11 If you have access to the source, probably not hard. Reverse engineering, who knows, probably not worth it. Oct 09 13:16:54 well, you can just use it like a library, right? you don't need to know the innerworkings of it all .. as long as you know how it loads itself .. or am i simplifying things too much ? Oct 09 13:18:13 I don't know enough about google gears to say really, I have never researched implementation details. Oct 09 13:20:19 well, not google gears .. Oct 09 13:20:22 but local storage .. Oct 09 13:20:26 Anyone ever seen: Catalog.appStatesCommon._makePurchase: purchase failed {"message": "Unable to find currency code for device", "errorCode": "PMT03022"}, palmInitFramework347:2527 Oct 09 13:21:01 could you get the .jar and other things they load over the network pipe, and store them along with version information in the local storage for use off-line .. Oct 09 13:24:01 it depends if their app is an independent client/server or if the javascript runs off the server. Oct 09 13:27:23 i bet it could be done without too much fancy dancy work .. Oct 09 13:35:32 google gears getting replaced with html5. Oct 09 13:36:09 question is if you can store js that way in webos and inject it back in.... Oct 09 13:37:06 fudge!.. woke up this morning to no hot water.. waterheater died.. only been here 2 months.. figures Oct 09 13:40:56 any German speakers here? Oct 09 13:44:37 da Oct 09 13:44:56 I'm kidding, I don't speack german :) Oct 09 13:46:58 good. da is russian. Oct 09 13:47:30 dawm: how old is the water heater? Oct 09 14:10:47 haha fail xD Oct 09 14:11:18 Anybody using Node.JS with webOS 2.0? I'd like to have examples of what can be done with that :) Oct 09 14:30:02 webOS 2.0 is under NDA and can't be discussed here. If it exists. Oct 09 18:02:59 ja Oct 09 18:06:19 je parle français par contre;) Oct 09 19:11:26 hey guys Oct 09 19:11:41 how many webos devices have been sold? (roughly) Oct 09 19:11:47 a bunch Oct 09 19:11:52 5 million? Oct 09 19:11:52 dunno Oct 09 19:11:58 last I heard it was at least over a mil Oct 09 19:12:03 i'm a palm developer status now Oct 09 19:12:07 awesome Oct 09 19:12:15 but that was going by the number of facebook webOS activations Oct 09 19:12:18 I'm going to try and pump out about a dozen apps Oct 09 19:12:27 what kind of apps do you make Oct 09 19:12:37 aren they the same app? Oct 09 19:12:47 What do you mean? Oct 09 19:12:49 s/aren/are/ Oct 09 19:13:21 What do you mean? Oct 09 19:13:57 are they 12 of the same app with different content, or are are they 12 completely different apps Oct 09 19:14:25 Completely different Oct 09 19:14:34 I'm going to use Ares, since it's pretty simple to export and publish Oct 09 19:15:03 cool, good luck Oct 09 19:15:56 Thans Oct 09 19:17:05 Are they (the reviewers) strict about guidelines for UI? Oct 09 19:17:13 yep Oct 09 19:17:17 If I pump over some phonegap apps, they look a bit different than the normal menus Oct 09 19:17:28 I'm going to port over two, just to see Oct 09 19:17:40 it's all about the app menu with the reviewers Oct 09 19:18:45 Is there a function that does the opposite of intersect? http://api.prototypejs.org/language/array/prototype/intersect/ Oct 09 19:19:45 Could I do, array1.without(array2)? http://api.prototypejs.org/language/array/prototype/without/ Oct 09 19:19:59 Tibfib: not sure, doesn't look like it...might be able to use without Oct 09 19:20:05 got ya Oct 09 19:20:09 therefore, i need to use Ares Oct 09 19:20:14 Tibfib: withouth(interesect) Oct 09 19:20:16 I also want to experiment with the ad integration Oct 09 19:20:27 Looks like admob is the only probable way, since there is no SDK from anyone here Oct 09 19:20:36 t8: you can use phonegap Oct 09 19:20:52 t8: and ad SDKs are basically a crutch wrapper around standard AJAX Oct 09 19:20:52 Right, but the menu system... will they care? Oct 09 19:21:04 admob provides the raw JavaScript Oct 09 19:21:17 t8: I'm sure the palm app menu is intact from a phonegap app, but you'd need to talk to swisstomcat Oct 09 19:21:35 t8: just saying admob isn't your only option Oct 09 19:21:54 we used them when there was "only an iPhone SDK" Oct 09 19:21:54 What are my other options? Oct 09 19:22:08 any other ad network, basically...except iAd I guess Oct 09 19:22:11 admob and greystripe both have javascript code, but greystripe blows Oct 09 19:22:14 Really? Oct 09 19:22:28 AdSense Mobile Content no longer works, and they have an sdk for android and iphone only Oct 09 19:22:30 any one that has an API, yeah Oct 09 19:22:36 What others could I use besides admob? Oct 09 19:22:52 Is there even a choice? Oct 09 19:22:54 you'll have to see if there are any with a published API Oct 09 19:23:01 adfonic used to Oct 09 19:23:03 Do you recommend anything? Oct 09 19:23:05 quattro wireless Oct 09 19:23:09 but they're iad now Oct 09 19:23:22 I haven't done ads in over a year, so I can't recommend anything Oct 09 19:23:45 Does adfonic pay?Never heard of them Oct 09 19:23:48 admob pays, and on time Oct 09 19:24:04 t8: I never used them, I only made them work Oct 09 19:24:05 with phonegap, i can place the ads anywhere Oct 09 19:24:12 so can I Oct 09 19:24:13 that's the nice thing... most SDKs require on top or on botto Oct 09 19:24:24 (because u have no choice) Oct 09 19:24:29 but with webos, you can move it around Oct 09 19:24:42 if you look at the admob sdk that was posted on google, then you could definitely add your own spaces Oct 09 19:26:10 smaato is a service that switches between ad networks to allow you to keep your fill rate high Oct 09 19:26:14 I guess you're right Oct 09 19:27:59 ill look at smaato Oct 09 19:28:40 shoot. This is going to be tricky Oct 09 19:29:09 Tibfib: what are you trying to do? Oct 09 19:30:03 I have a list that's items are a global variable. I update the global variable, but I need a function to update the list in the local scene up to the global variable Oct 09 19:30:20 I thought looking at listmodel.items and comparing it would work, but no dice Oct 09 19:30:54 I'd rather not delegateToSceneAssistant the items to get loaded, but I may have to Oct 09 19:31:34 Tibfib: so you have a global items array....and it's the same array in the scene's list, too....when you change the list in the scene, it should be changed in the global already Oct 09 19:31:47 or am I missing something? Oct 09 19:32:13 I'm updating the variable itself outside the scene. but I need a function to "notice" the changes in teh global varialbe Oct 09 19:32:28 hi all Oct 09 19:32:33 hi JenP Oct 09 19:32:33 JenP: howdy Oct 09 19:32:44 morning/afternoon Oct 09 19:33:04 Tibfib: but arrays are always passed by reference, so anywhere you change it it is going to be changed everywhere else, too Oct 09 19:33:14 yeah, not the issue Oct 09 19:33:22 okay, that's why I'm confused Oct 09 19:33:27 The issue is the list widget itself not updating Oct 09 19:33:30 oh Oct 09 19:33:38 what about noticeUpdatedItems Oct 09 19:33:48 doesn't work well Oct 09 19:33:51 I don't know how to use them, but I see them Oct 09 19:33:52 I get blank items Oct 09 19:34:03 there's the one about noticing and setting length Oct 09 19:34:41 I need to somehow get the properties of the last item of the list widget Oct 09 19:35:02 * Tibfib looks at the docs Oct 09 19:35:39 Tibfib: when you update "outside" the scene, are you talking about inside Mojo still? Oct 09 19:35:48 yeah Oct 09 19:36:31 specialized function in the scene that you can call to reset the link between the list's items array and the updated global and call modelChanged? Oct 09 19:36:40 can't call modelChanged Oct 09 19:36:45 why not? Oct 09 19:36:50 blank items Oct 09 19:37:03 I have to use noticeAddedItems Oct 09 19:37:05 really? Oct 09 19:37:07 yeah Oct 09 19:37:13 that's weird Oct 09 19:37:42 annoying too :) Oct 09 19:37:55 yeah, I've never used anything but modelChanged Oct 09 19:38:35 do you have a low renderlimit or something? I don't think it matters with dynamic lists, though Oct 09 19:38:51 nope Oct 09 19:38:56 I haven't set one at least Oct 09 19:39:06 there's a default Oct 09 19:39:13 20 or 25 I think Oct 09 19:39:26 OH Oct 09 19:39:40 I'll have to mess with that Oct 09 19:40:19 yeah, it's 20 Oct 09 19:40:39 set it really high and see if the blank items go away with modelChanged Oct 09 19:40:57 nice! Oct 09 19:41:16 I shouldn't have even started using noticeAddedItems lol Oct 09 19:41:21 haha Oct 09 19:41:59 Tibfib: the problem, of course, is if your list ever grows beyond the renderLimit, you might start seeing blank items again Oct 09 19:42:37 Yeah, I'll start killing items Oct 09 19:44:46 arg, all of Palm's magic "is this timezone in daylight savings right now" code is in Java somewhere Oct 09 19:48:22 not for long :) Oct 09 19:49:59 yeah, but I'm SOOOO close to having a working prototype of this clock app Oct 09 19:50:13 Clock app, or alarm app? Oct 09 19:50:42 I can make it startup and take the current local time and display the actual real time in 6 other timezones (espcially the ones Rod always complains about) Oct 09 19:50:45 clock app Oct 09 19:50:53 rwhitby's request Oct 09 19:51:40 it's a little tricky...easy to get the timezone offsets, tricky to figure if any particular date is currently experiencing dst Oct 09 19:52:00 but, palm does it somewhere Oct 09 19:52:15 sugardave: that's cool you're making that app Oct 09 19:52:40 if it works :D Oct 09 19:55:08 what happened to the other guy? Oct 09 19:55:13 he gave up Oct 09 19:55:23 :O Oct 09 19:56:31 the other "issue" is that what Rod wants is slightly more complicated than a world clock...he wants to be able to set an arbitrary date/time on any of the cities and update appropriately Oct 09 19:57:03 that's where the killer is Oct 09 19:57:31 utc is your friend. Oct 09 19:57:38 oh sure Oct 09 19:57:44 :) Oct 09 19:57:50 just felt like giving random advice Oct 09 19:58:10 tell me, though, does Tonga experience daylight savings time when it's 7/27/2012? Oct 09 19:58:13 :D Oct 09 19:59:12 your app better tell me Oct 09 19:59:39 that's what I'm trying to work around...there is a kludgy javascript way, but I hate it Oct 09 19:59:51 I want to use the same way I do the initial app start Oct 09 20:00:11 but that's proving to be more difficult than I anticipated Oct 09 20:00:43 I don't like javascript dates much Oct 09 20:01:55 it's an anti-social loner Oct 09 20:02:12 they're okay, but this seems like a problem that could be addressed in the language Oct 09 20:02:16 it just isn't Oct 09 20:02:45 Whats your issue with JS date? Oct 09 20:02:53 I dont seem to have any issues with it Oct 09 20:03:01 just not as good as php dates Oct 09 20:03:31 oh ok, I have forgot all of my php knowledge, totally depricated Oct 09 20:03:37 in my head at least Oct 09 20:03:43 :) Oct 09 20:03:45 php dates are really nice. I wish I could use them more Oct 09 20:03:47 CTLAdvance: I can't take a date and apply an arbitrary timezone to it AND have it calculate if that should be further adjusted to DST or not Oct 09 20:04:05 I can only apply an offset Oct 09 20:04:11 Why cant you? Oct 09 20:04:20 I have to know ahead of time if a particular date needs to be adjusted for dst Oct 09 20:04:22 Make your own data class handler Oct 09 20:04:32 I assume you want it built in :) Oct 09 20:04:39 how do I know when any timezone anywhere in the world adjusts forward or back Oct 09 20:04:41 yes Oct 09 20:04:44 that's what I want Oct 09 20:04:45 it's not there Oct 09 20:04:58 nope, not that im aware of Oct 09 20:05:10 you can get all that information from the interwebs Oct 09 20:05:25 that's what I meant when I said it seems like this is a problem that could be addressed in the language but it isn't for some reason Oct 09 20:05:34 CTLAdvance: that's fine, but what if you're in airplane mode Oct 09 20:05:36 then just build your app to handle it yourself, and then allow an override function to users Oct 09 20:05:41 sugardave: maybe you'll have to include that data in your app Oct 09 20:05:49 The device screws up in airplain mode Oct 09 20:05:50 Tibfib: I'm trying to avoid it, I have an idea Oct 09 20:05:55 especially if you turn on wifi Oct 09 20:06:05 Then the date and time changes randomly Oct 09 20:06:28 It really screwed me up when I was in europe Oct 09 20:06:47 part of my problem is that I've only tackled the time part, I need to be add in the date stuff Oct 09 20:07:18 oh wait Oct 09 20:07:19 haha Oct 09 20:07:22 I know what I will do Oct 09 20:18:43 would sprint be willing to warranty-replace a Pre with a crack in it Oct 09 21:35:10 how do people work around list graying out after an update Oct 09 21:35:38 if the list is too big and it is updated then in ares it just goes gray until the user scrolls Oct 09 21:35:46 very annoying from a usability perspective Oct 09 21:35:52 does anyone have a workaround? Oct 09 21:49:15 set a higher renderLimit Oct 09 21:50:23 i don't know ahead of time how high to make the number Oct 09 21:50:44 an infinte list? bummer Oct 09 21:50:50 haha Oct 09 21:51:03 my point is the number can be exceed at some future point Oct 09 21:51:12 setting it at 2,000,000 seems a bit excessive Oct 09 21:51:39 to ensure there are no problems Oct 09 21:51:48 there's noticeUpdatedItems and noticeAddedItems, but I've never used those Oct 09 21:52:02 they don't really do anything modelChanged doesn't Oct 09 21:52:14 and i'm calling modelChanged all over the place Oct 09 21:52:36 you could try your hand at manually scrolling the list and seeing if it will re-render Oct 09 21:52:48 ha Oct 09 21:52:56 nice Oct 09 21:53:04 that should do it Oct 09 21:53:12 since the list goes back to normal after a scroll Oct 09 21:53:17 thanks Oct 09 21:53:20 np Oct 09 22:15:46 morning Oct 09 23:31:50 why does image view suck so bad? Oct 09 23:35:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxHLdrCYm4k new dev podcast on 2.0 Oct 10 00:36:41 how do i set the autoconfirmDelete attribute for a list in ares? Oct 10 01:38:52 anyone who uses Ares on OSX: pairing it with Fluidium is awesome! Oct 10 02:06:55 wow haxe seems to have exploded on me Oct 10 02:09:36 haxe gave you the axe **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 10 02:59:57 2010