**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 11 02:59:57 2011
Oct 11 03:58:01 <cxreg> are we taking bets on HPs announcement?
Oct 11 03:58:12 <ka6sox> why?
Oct 11 03:58:32 <cxreg> why not
Oct 11 03:58:54 <ka6sox> 2:1 it won't be good.
Oct 11 03:59:48 <cxreg> im sure
Oct 11 03:59:49 <dwc-> what announcement
Oct 11 04:00:26 <cxreg> "HP to Decide the Fate of Palm/WebOS Business This Week"
Oct 11 04:01:05 <cxreg> supposedly they've solicited purchase bids and are going to vote on it tomorrow
Oct 11 04:01:31 <dwc-> I see
Oct 11 04:41:55 <rwatkins> wow, Dart makes a 17k line 'hello world' https://gist.github.com/1277224
Oct 11 04:42:22 <wrea> woo
Oct 11 04:42:44 <Shadyman> woo
Oct 11 04:42:47 <rwatkins> and like how the latest comment says "but if you use the Closure Complier its 2000 lines pretty printed".
Oct 11 04:42:50 <rwatkins> like .. thats a win
Oct 11 04:51:22 <bpadalino> eh, no different than when C generates ASM .. or some other high-level language creates something that is lower
Oct 11 04:52:12 <balrog> bpadalino: umm, not quite that bad
Oct 11 04:52:46 <rwhitby> oil: that Fire one is my favourite too
Oct 11 04:53:09 <oil> idk why it wasn't a runner up
Oct 11 04:53:16 <oil> it was way better then the kid one lol
Oct 11 04:53:22 <rwhitby> time to start a twitter campaign I think
Oct 11 04:53:47 <oil> lol
Oct 11 04:54:16 <balrog> I'm surprised how only two of the "finalists" were any good :(
Oct 11 04:56:13 <oil> there rwhitby i started it :)
Oct 11 04:57:20 <rwhitby> oil: so did I
Oct 11 04:57:36 <rwhitby> and I added a hashtag! :)
Oct 11 04:57:57 <oil> i never know what to hash tag
Oct 11 07:29:11 <SineOt> the biggest thing I love about webOS is also one of the smallest. The rounded corner overlays on the screen! :C
Oct 11 07:29:39 <SineOt> a webOS phone with some sort of Super AMOLED would have been amazing. The screen would have seamlessly blended and it would have looked amazing
Oct 11 07:29:44 <seretogis> rounded corners (tm, Apple Inc) are cool.
Oct 11 07:31:33 <SineOt> boggles me that there isn't a mod/tweak/hack to bring them to Android devices
Oct 11 07:31:41 <seretogis> indeed :(
Oct 11 07:32:29 * SineOt has spent the last week or so off and on looking :C
Oct 11 07:33:02 <seretogis> especially with the slate of dual core qualcomm android phones
Oct 11 07:33:07 <seretogis> though none would have the gesture area
Oct 11 07:33:31 <seretogis> to sleep I go, to dream of webOS on nice android phones
Oct 11 07:35:17 <EricBlade> omfg someone has not written a decent woot app for webos. why?
Oct 11 07:35:30 <EricBlade> they all suck for both pc and webos. yuck
Oct 11 07:36:07 <wrea> yeah :\
Oct 11 07:36:37 <wrea> I already have the ice cream maker up right now, or else I might have gotten it
Oct 11 08:11:15 <EricBlade> well i jsut got the bluetooth headset that they are wooting off now. hope it works well with touchpad
Oct 11 08:48:28 <Exiles> ok
Oct 11 09:56:56 <thomaschaaf> ARGH my phone hates me :( pre2 keeps going from mute to no mute to mute..
Oct 11 09:57:03 <thomaschaaf> ringer switch is set to mute though
Oct 11 09:57:16 <thomaschaaf> have tried restarting
Oct 11 09:57:24 <thomaschaaf> and taking out the battery
Oct 11 13:07:22 <Exiles> sad world we live in when a non optimized chrom in a chrooted enviroment is faster then the native web os 3 browser
Oct 11 14:09:05 <rwatkins> Exiles: you mean a browser with two years of additional development is faster than one that thats been just patched a bit here and there to get by?
Oct 11 14:25:09 <dwc-> a chroot is just as native
Oct 11 14:25:43 <summatusmentis> arguably more "native"
Oct 11 14:26:00 <summatusmentis> as the code is compiled (no idea if the webOS browser is)
Oct 11 14:27:30 <Exiles> just not as optimized as webos should be
Oct 11 14:39:59 <rwatkins> lots of things webos "should" do but inifinite todo list and limited resources.
Oct 11 14:51:02 <panel> bye
Oct 11 15:02:44 <halfhalo> omnomnom
Oct 11 15:17:46 <rwatkins> sugardave: I always associate the Imperial March with Microsoft  ;)
Oct 11 15:19:56 <sugardave> heh, it's just general doom for me
Oct 11 15:20:44 <rwatkins> that and dave balmer forking phonegap-windows on github -- people could start reading into things ..
Oct 11 15:20:53 <sugardave> hahaha
Oct 11 15:21:14 <rwatkins> think we've got some solid facts for a precentral article right there.
Oct 11 15:21:34 * sugardave waits for the rumor mill to start up.
Oct 11 15:21:58 <halfhalo> nonono, solid for PC would be seeing a palm peep with IE open.
Oct 11 15:22:32 <rwatkins> rumor mill never stops, just a matter of how fast its spinning
Oct 11 15:23:35 <Hendikins> Heh, we've got a saying at work... "If you haven't heard a rumour by 9AM, start one"
Oct 11 15:23:56 <sugardave> Hendikins: do you work at IBM? :D
Oct 11 15:24:07 <Hendikins> sugardave: Nah, I'm on the railways.
Oct 11 15:24:15 <sugardave> ah, cool
Oct 11 15:24:23 <Hendikins> We've been around a lot longer than IBM. :P
Oct 11 15:24:27 <sugardave> hehe
Oct 11 15:24:54 <sugardave> "Trains are late because a wild yeti is on the loose, tearing out ties."
Oct 11 15:26:09 <Hendikins> Nah, the rumours stay in house. We did have a good screw up a couple of days ago.
Oct 11 15:26:53 <Hendikins> Gotta beware of those Windows techs: http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/10/10/1226163/081126-trains-collide.jpg
Oct 11 15:27:23 <halfhalo> if all else fails, blame the moose.
Oct 11 15:27:28 <sugardave> ooops
Oct 11 15:27:38 <Hendikins> halfhalo: We don't have those in Australia.
Oct 11 15:28:06 <Hendikins> sugardave: The one on the right runs Windows, and it was one of the technicians who caused that problem (did a propelling movement with nobody up the front)
Oct 11 15:28:35 <sugardave> I don't know if I could ride on a Windows-powered train
Oct 11 15:28:57 <Hendikins> I have to crew them!
Oct 11 15:29:06 <Hendikins> Although at least I know the critical stuff is still mechanical.
Oct 11 15:29:30 <Hendikins> In what I'm sure is a coincidence, the later trains run Linux.
Oct 11 15:29:39 <sugardave> hmm
Oct 11 15:29:54 <halfhalo> http://gizmodo.com/5848606/the-avengers-trailer-is-full-of-explosions-and-iron-man-and-awesome
Oct 11 15:29:57 <halfhalo> i like
Oct 11 15:30:17 <Hendikins> I wonder how well webOS would go as a UI for a train...
Oct 11 15:30:50 <Khaytsus> You would have to close out the "Safety" card to laod the "Switch Track" app
Oct 11 15:31:13 <Hendikins> Nah, doesn't work that way. The track switching is done by signallers in a signal box.
Oct 11 15:31:23 <Khaytsus> ...
Oct 11 15:32:07 <Hendikins> Although with the software on the latest ones we're rolling out, the Speedometer card would be a placeholder. :P
Oct 11 15:33:12 <Khaytsus> But at least the market would be full of guides rather than apps
Oct 11 15:33:27 <Hendikins> And the GPS wouldn't work correctly because we're in the southern hemisphere.
Oct 11 15:33:38 <pc-world> how can I give a VirtualList the most available space? (no VirtualRepeater)
Oct 11 15:33:48 <Khaytsus> Hendikins: ASssuming the hardware had the GPS ;)
Oct 11 15:34:19 <Hendikins> Khaytsus: The hardware definitely has GPS - and 3G too. It's an AT&T model train.
Oct 11 15:34:40 <Khaytsus> Oh noes...  Dropped call, suddenly two trains are on the same track..
Oct 11 15:34:53 <Khaytsus> Or you drop off to EDGE and can't download updates and blam
Oct 11 15:35:11 <Hendikins> It also explains why we've only got 2 of them at the moment, as opposed to a large number of other units.
Oct 11 15:35:41 <sugardave> pc-world: put it in a control with VFlexLayout and give the VirtualList flex: 1
Oct 11 15:35:44 <sugardave> ?
Oct 11 15:35:56 <pc-world> sugardave: a VirtualList needs a fixed size
Oct 11 15:36:05 <pc-world> sugardave: applied via CSS
Oct 11 15:36:34 <pc-world> or at least a fixed height
Oct 11 15:36:36 <Hendikins> Khaytsus: On a side note, I'll have to stop using my Pre2 as a work phone when they move to GSM-R :(
Oct 11 15:36:36 <rwatkins> only in a Toaster in Chrome I think, not in webOS.
Oct 11 15:36:49 <Khaytsus> Hendikins: GSM-R?
Oct 11 15:37:12 <Hendikins> Khaytsus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM-R
Oct 11 15:37:21 <sugardave> pc-world: hold please
Oct 11 15:37:41 <Khaytsus> Hendikins: ha, cool :)
Oct 11 15:38:17 <pc-world> sugardave: sure
Oct 11 15:38:51 <Khaytsus> If the modem connection is lost, the train will automatically stop  <-- wow..  good thing it doesn't use BES
Oct 11 15:39:04 <Hendikins> We've actually got a bit of a stoush going on between the railways (collectively), the telcos (collectively) and the regulator (ACMA). The telcos want the 1800MHz spectrum for LTE or the railways to pay commercial rates for it.
Oct 11 15:40:28 <Hendikins> Whereas the railways (at least the infrastructure side) are government entities and the regulator treats government license holders differently to commercial.
Oct 11 15:41:58 <Hendikins> (Side note: LTE1800 on Telstra is *very* nice)
Oct 11 15:45:30 <HattCzech_work> morning, all
Oct 11 15:54:29 <pc-world> sugardave: Did you figure out something about this?
Oct 11 16:12:29 * DougReeder wakes up
Oct 11 16:14:00 <sugardave> pc-world: omg I'm sorry I got pulled away for something else
Oct 11 16:14:10 <sugardave> let me get my vlist example up to look at
Oct 11 16:23:46 <pc-world> sugardave: ok
Oct 11 16:26:56 <DougReeder> hey chuqui the deadline for the Weekly App Hack is still tonight? No extension? (I've submitted, but am curious.)
Oct 11 16:26:57 <sugardave> pc-world: https://gist.github.com/1278579
Oct 11 16:27:24 <chuqui> DougReeder:  yeah, it is.
Oct 11 16:27:56 <DougReeder> It's a shame we don't have a version of the plugin that lets apps play nice.
Oct 11 16:39:25 <sugardave> hotdp: ping
Oct 11 16:40:00 <pc-world> sugardave: have you tested it?
Oct 11 16:40:40 <sugardave> pc-world: yes
Oct 11 16:40:43 <sugardave> both work
Oct 11 16:41:22 <pc-world> is there a difference between applying height: 100% on CSS or using the "height" attribute you use?
Oct 11 16:41:46 <sugardave> my height attribute is inline, so it overrides whatever gets applied in .css
Oct 11 16:41:55 <oilsworkn> lols
Oct 11 16:42:04 <sugardave> that's probably why I have it that way, but it's been awhile since I did that sample :D
Oct 11 16:42:49 <pc-world> sugardave: is enyo-fit a standard css class?
Oct 11 16:46:45 <sugardave> pc-world: enyo-fit basically makes a flex layout
Oct 11 16:47:05 <sugardave> er flexed to whatever is containing it
Oct 11 16:50:03 <pc-world> "Because a VirtualList contains a Scroller, it must have a fixed size"
Oct 11 16:50:13 <pc-world> can't get it to work with my code
Oct 11 16:50:24 <pc-world> (@sugardave)
Oct 11 16:51:01 <rwatkins> I have flexed Virtual lists, the cotnainer provides their size.
Oct 11 16:52:24 <pc-world> so what containers have a fixed size?
Oct 11 16:52:28 <rwatkins> normally they're contained in a Pane or something that sizes to the viewport.  Then flex based on Pane gives them the necessary size.
Oct 11 16:54:00 <sugardave> in fact, I stripped that out of a Pane container to make sure it would work with just the Control or the VFlexBox
Oct 11 16:54:17 <rwatkins> they are a scroller, so they cant "grow to the size of their contents"
Oct 11 16:54:26 <sugardave> somewhere up the hierarchy needs a "fixed" size
Oct 11 16:54:33 <rwatkins> but as long as they have a container that sized your good.
Oct 11 16:59:18 <pc-world> thanks, I'll keep tryin
Oct 11 16:59:21 <pc-world> *trying
Oct 11 17:23:25 <rwatkins> so I wonder what the firesale price is for webOS itself
Oct 11 17:23:54 <DougReeder> Heh.  Pretty cheap, at this point, I imagine.
Oct 11 17:24:25 <rwatkins> MSRP $1.2billion, Liquidation $150 million!
Oct 11 17:25:04 <DougReeder> I don't know that there's a buyer out there, who can do what enthusiasts want.
Oct 11 17:25:30 <DougReeder> We want general-purpose devices.
Oct 11 17:25:41 <dwc-> I thought they said they were keeping webos already
Oct 11 17:25:48 <dwc-> so we could have TMC on our printers
Oct 11 17:25:52 <rwatkins> Guess we'll see.  Doesnt look like they're lining up around the block this time.
Oct 11 17:25:57 <DougReeder> Facebook would want a device to keep you in Facebook.
Oct 11 17:27:01 <DougReeder> One of the East Asian manufacturers might produce general-purpose devices.
Oct 11 17:27:31 <rwatkins> Unfortunately I think the OS itself it toast, but someone could pick up Enyo and the team and run with an Enyo+PhoneGap type model on various platforms.
Oct 11 17:28:34 <DougReeder> Enyo would be useful as a front-end to cloud services -- but so would open-source frameworks like jQuery.
Oct 11 17:28:42 <pigsflew> or sencha touch
Oct 11 17:28:55 <rwatkins> ya, thats the tough bit - competing with jquery mobile, sencha touch and the rest
Oct 11 17:29:45 <rwatkins> though from what I've done with the three, Enyo is so much better.  but then I also liked Prototype as well and jquery one that battle.
Oct 11 17:30:35 <pigsflew> Enyo is cool, but it really part of what made webOS cool
Oct 11 17:30:55 <pigsflew> enyo was just a decent framework that ran on webOS and was better than mojo
Oct 11 17:31:44 <pigsflew> having an android clone that runs the enyo framework isn't really going to make anyone all smiles, i think
Oct 11 17:32:44 <pigsflew> hi all, it's been a while :/
Oct 11 17:33:11 <DougReeder_> The parts of webOS- node on a handheld, Enyo, are not compelling on their own - the whole is more than the sum of the parts.
Oct 11 17:33:13 <rwatkins> but they can position it well - app development is inevitably moving toward the mobile web / phonegap / webos model.
Oct 11 17:33:55 <rwatkins> target enyo and a container w/ services model cross platform
Oct 11 17:34:04 <DougReeder_> We should find the guys who developed Star at Xerox PARC and commiserate.
Oct 11 17:34:56 <rwatkins> maybe go to Adobe and be the other half of the Phonegap acquisition
Oct 11 17:38:06 <DougReeder_> I've submitted my entry to the Weekly App hack; anyone else?
Oct 11 17:38:50 <pigsflew> congrats
Oct 11 17:40:02 <DougReeder_> It's in the Beta catalog, since I'm not sure how much is useful to end users.
Oct 11 17:40:13 <pigsflew> What's it do?
Oct 11 17:40:42 <DougReeder_> speech output in popupCalc
Oct 11 17:40:47 <rwatkins> really wanted to but needed somethign with more control over the audio and didnt have the time to build up that expertize creating my own plugin enhancements.
Oct 11 17:40:56 <rwatkins> nice
Oct 11 17:41:05 <pigsflew> sweet
Oct 11 17:41:06 <rwatkins> fits well with a robot voice too then
Oct 11 17:41:37 <DougReeder_> yeah, I'm hoping someone is motivated to hook up to streaming in flite
Oct 11 17:42:04 <rwatkins> maybe next week the prize is a pre3.  :)
Oct 11 17:42:20 <DougReeder_> That would also make apps play nice with each other
Oct 11 17:42:29 <rwatkins> ya
Oct 11 17:43:39 <DougReeder_> You couldn't enter it in the contest, but patching Calendar alarms to add voice would be nice
Oct 11 17:45:23 <pc-world> computed style keeps 0px in chrome inspector for my VirtualList with just "flex: 1" as size property
Oct 11 17:46:22 <DougReeder_> if you replace the VirtualList with somehing else, is it correctly sized?
Oct 11 17:48:38 <pc-world> when replacing with VirtualRepeater and removing the #refresh call, it gets displayed, but kinda strange: http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/gs5jdxa7/Auswahl_008.png
Oct 11 17:48:38 <pc-world> "end of list" is supposed to be beneath of the list
Oct 11 17:50:00 <DougReeder_> try a Component with just text
Oct 11 17:53:01 <DougReeder_> hey, I'
Oct 11 17:53:11 <pc-world> DougReeder_: doesn't work either: http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/9cdm6u92/Auswahl_008.png
Oct 11 17:53:44 <pc-world> (though works when removing "flex: 1"
Oct 11 17:53:46 <pc-world> )
Oct 11 17:54:51 <DougReeder_> get the Component sized right, then switch back to the VirtualList
Oct 11 17:55:06 <DougReeder_> hey, I'm going for a walk. be sure to use my name if you want me to hear.
Oct 11 19:09:53 <rwatkins> Free Apps on a Tuesday?  thrown a curveball there ...
Oct 11 19:10:10 <halfhalo> lol
Oct 11 19:20:19 <rwatkins> posted to slickdeals 10 min ago, better get movin' while supplies last ..
Oct 11 19:26:37 <EricBlade> rwatkins: is rwadkins impersonating you, or just have a very similar name?  (on dev forum)
Oct 11 19:27:19 <rwatkins> hm, dunno.  i'm only rwatkins and rwatkinsthumbplay but the latter is now dead.
Oct 11 19:27:32 <rwatkins> former company account.
Oct 11 19:28:46 <rwatkins> looks like just random chance
Oct 11 19:31:20 <rwatkins> I queued up a new version of my app for release just after the next Pivot.  Clearly that was a mistake.
Oct 11 19:39:25 <EricBlade> am i the only person who can't figure otu what the icons on most apps mean just by their images?
Oct 11 20:03:19 <CTLAdvance|2> yes
Oct 11 20:12:49 <EricBlade> CTLAdvance|2: i only find that thought moderateyl surprising.
Oct 11 20:13:09 <EricBlade> i find myself always pushing icon buttons going 'i wonder what this does" and usually to my dismay, something bad, with no confirmation
Oct 11 20:13:38 <CTLAdvance|2> do you mean the app icon or the internal function icons
Oct 11 20:13:52 <EricBlade> icons on toolbars in programs
Oct 11 20:14:03 <CTLAdvance|2> i would say that generally i dont have any issues
Oct 11 20:14:07 <rwatkins> "what does this little trashcan do?"
Oct 11 20:14:08 <CTLAdvance|2> yeah
Oct 11 20:14:14 <pigsflew> haha
Oct 11 20:14:16 <rwatkins> let me click it and see
Oct 11 20:14:30 <rwatkins> hmm something moved, but i cant tell what now.
Oct 11 20:14:36 <CTLAdvance|2> if they are so far out there that i cant categorize the icon in my head  oh thats a settings button
Oct 11 20:14:49 <CTLAdvance|2> then it was designed bad
Oct 11 20:15:26 <pigsflew> I like the typical ones: a gear for settings, two arrows in a circle for refresh, a trash can for delete, etc
Oct 11 20:15:35 <CTLAdvance|2> i would say if a trashcan is moving somethi g.....wtf
Oct 11 20:15:47 <EricBlade> CTLAdvance|2: that's what the email app does
Oct 11 20:15:52 <rwatkins> that said the UI conventions for Enyo are not really all that well defined and 'solid'
Oct 11 20:16:08 <pigsflew> if it's not something there's already a common icon for, it should be in a menu drawer with text
Oct 11 20:16:12 <pigsflew> imho
Oct 11 20:16:16 <rwatkins> like "share" and "add window" in Browser are kinda crap.
Oct 11 20:16:53 <CTLAdvance|2> yes tge browser is confusing
Oct 11 20:17:10 <CTLAdvance|2> where did the 3 by 3 blocker go for favs
Oct 11 20:17:37 <rwatkins> history/bookmarks is fine, but there are some of the icons that are a bit iffy, and I think get re-used by 3rd party apps in ways that are not exactly the same.
Oct 11 20:17:41 <EricBlade> music player remix, has.. a block with a line in it, a sheet of paper with a + over it, a sheet of paper with a pen and a musical note on it, a sheet of paper with a stripe (i guess it's a book with a mark hanging out, but i don't get that impression just looking at it), and an icon that looks like a ladder.
Oct 11 20:18:22 <pigsflew> sheet of paper with a plus is "new" something, i should think
Oct 11 20:18:40 <pigsflew> the rest i'd probably have to see
Oct 11 20:18:59 <EricBlade> that pops open a menu "add to flylist, add to favorite, post to twitter, post to facebook".
Oct 11 20:20:20 <EricBlade> the block with the line in it appears to be a quit button -- this is the only catalog with approval that i've seen that would approve something with an exit button
Oct 11 20:20:37 <rwatkins> I've gotten the complaint in Paper Mache as well, but just really dont wanna use text labels.
Oct 11 20:21:45 <EricBlade> i think this whole idea that the action buttons apparently should be grey-embossed-style on top of a toolbar, is a bit retarded
Oct 11 20:22:00 <CTLAdvance|2> i hqve to say tgat the splashtop apps work real well
Oct 11 20:22:13 <EricBlade> splashtop is quite nice
Oct 11 20:22:57 <CTLAdvance|2> i am using the splash remote on iphone and srdp on the touchpad
Oct 11 20:23:03 <CTLAdvance|2> both work well
Oct 11 20:23:24 <rwatkins> grey embossed?  what like Firefox and Chrome?
Oct 11 20:24:13 <EricBlade> rwatkins: look at the buttons on the bottom of the email program
Oct 11 20:24:52 <rwatkins> ya, they look alot like the buttons on the top toolbar of Chrome and FF on OSX atleast.
Oct 11 20:25:12 <rwatkins> darker and embossed.
Oct 11 20:25:29 <EricBlade> this whole "grey-grey-grey" style reminds me exactly of OS/2
Oct 11 20:26:20 <EricBlade> after you get through the initial account setup in webos, the whole system turns to "industrial boring"
Oct 11 20:26:52 <rwatkins> account setup is very webOS 1.x/2.x looking still.
Oct 11 20:27:15 <rwatkins> it sounds more like you just perfer the mojo UI to the enyo one.
Oct 11 20:27:44 <summatusmentis> I also do not understand why grey is bad?
Oct 11 20:28:42 * EricBlade shrugs
Oct 11 20:29:37 <rwatkins> regardless of the difference in design choices, mojo was alot more polished than enyo.
Oct 11 20:30:14 <rwatkins> lots of little random things that dont look quite right in enyo
Oct 11 20:30:45 <rwatkins> mojo did something fairly different looking and did it well.
Oct 11 20:31:12 <Tibfib_> I decided today that enyo is not perfect
Oct 11 20:31:23 <Tibfib_> there could be a better framework
Oct 11 20:31:31 <Tibfib_> event handling is a pain with enyo.
Oct 11 20:31:51 <EricBlade> i like enyo as a much better alternative to doing nuts and bolts stuff with javascript
Oct 11 20:31:59 <rwatkins> 13 deep in your kind nesting Tibfib_ ?
Oct 11 20:32:04 <Tibfib_> rwatkins: right
Oct 11 20:32:10 <Tibfib_> pain in the butt
Oct 11 20:32:13 <Tibfib_> that's why I use minpubsub
Oct 11 20:32:20 <Tibfib_> keeps things clean
Oct 11 20:32:23 <EricBlade> 13? i get any more than 5 or 6 and the app just slows to a crawl
Oct 11 20:33:25 <rwatkins> I only get 4-5 deep, but I see it coming.  but ya, they've just chosen better encapsulation over the easy of global event handling
Oct 11 20:33:47 <Tibfib_> which I think in practice is a bad choice.
Oct 11 20:34:59 <rwatkins> I tried to use Enyo more for UI layout, put much of my app logic in non-enyo modules.
Oct 11 20:35:39 <Tibfib_> gosh dangit. I'm soo tired of the poor performance of nomnomnom card mode
Oct 11 20:36:03 <Tibfib_> no method works well
Oct 11 20:36:33 <rwatkins> I'm sure you could have a good little discussion with mcnulty over that design choice.  ;)
Oct 11 20:36:41 <Tibfib_> hah
Oct 11 20:36:50 <Tibfib_> well the beauty is I am free to use something like minpubsub
Oct 11 20:37:07 <rwatkins> yep
Oct 11 20:37:15 <Tibfib_> soo regardless of *ahem* decisions I can do what works best for me
Oct 11 20:38:26 <Tibfib_> alright. I'm scratching the current implementation and moving to a full screen one
Oct 11 20:38:32 <Tibfib_> using the virtual carousel
Oct 11 20:38:58 <sugardave> soon I will only be missing the 16GB TouchPad for my collection of webOS tablets
Oct 11 20:39:17 <Tibfib_> OH
Oct 11 20:39:24 <Tibfib_> I got my touchpad today
Oct 11 20:39:28 <sugardave> sweet
Oct 11 20:39:32 <EricBlade> sugardave: if you're not including unreleased models, that's a .. 50-50 collection. ;)
Oct 11 20:39:41 * DougReeder waves hello
Oct 11 20:39:51 <Tibfib> probably gonna sell it to my brother
Oct 11 20:39:56 <EricBlade> unless the 64 gig counts as a release
Oct 11 20:39:56 <dwc-> whoa, early app news
Oct 11 20:40:06 <dwc-> accursed meeting
Oct 11 20:40:11 <sugardave> EricBlade: oh, but I am counting all of the ones that were actually created at some point :P
Oct 11 20:40:21 <rwatkins> 16, 32, 64/white, 3G, Go ?
Oct 11 20:40:22 <dwc-> how many of them are already used up now
Oct 11 20:40:27 <DougReeder> Tibfib you didn't have a TouchPad at al before?
Oct 11 20:40:31 <EricBlade> sugardave: you're lucky :(
Oct 11 20:40:32 <Tibfib> I did
Oct 11 20:40:39 <Tibfib> got my second one during the firesale
Oct 11 20:40:49 <Tibfib> finally received it today
Oct 11 20:41:05 <Khaytsus> Wow.  Quick...
Oct 11 20:41:09 <Meetoman> hey guys
Oct 11 20:41:12 <EricBlade> that's encouraging. i hope there's lots of new users that are getting them soon
Oct 11 20:41:12 <Khaytsus> I wonder if it was part of the new build?
Oct 11 20:41:23 <Meetoman> hey Khaytsus, havnt seen you for a while =)
Oct 11 20:41:25 <Tibfib> Khaytsus: I believe so
Oct 11 20:41:28 <sugardave> I hear the Sunnyvale store just got a bunch of keyboards and touchstones rolled in
Oct 11 20:41:36 <Khaytsus> Meetoman: I lurk
Oct 11 20:41:47 <Tibfib> Ergh. mac osx lion is fairly buggy
Oct 11 20:41:57 <Meetoman> i still havnt switched to lion yet
Oct 11 20:42:07 <Meetoman> i m wondering if its still worth building out the webos portion
Oct 11 20:42:08 <Tibfib> don't.
Oct 11 20:42:11 <Meetoman> maybe I should just open souce it
Oct 11 20:42:13 <rwatkins> dont
Oct 11 20:42:17 <Meetoman> my app that is
Oct 11 20:42:30 <Tibfib> don't to lion. yeah to anything open source
Oct 11 20:42:30 <Meetoman> its really table the gamble that amazon will buy palm
Oct 11 20:42:38 <rwatkins> hanging on to Snow Leopard as long as I can I think
Oct 11 20:42:44 <Khaytsus> nowai
Oct 11 20:43:08 <DougReeder> I hear good things about Main in Lion, but I don't want the rest
Oct 11 20:43:22 <summatusmentis> I like Lion, generally
Oct 11 20:43:32 <summatusmentis> the only thing I dislike is how grabby it is about window focus
Oct 11 20:43:35 <DougReeder> I can and do use 2 apps at the same time
Oct 11 20:43:38 <summatusmentis> (for X11) apps
Oct 11 20:43:46 <dwc-> yep, all the apps dead.
Oct 11 20:44:16 <summatusmentis> what are you saying
Oct 11 20:44:42 <dwc-> oh, the app news #6
Oct 11 20:44:48 <dwc-> all the promo codes are used up already
Oct 11 20:44:53 <summatusmentis> oh
Oct 11 20:44:56 <Khaytsus> Of course so
Oct 11 20:45:01 <Khaytsus> They're used up within 20 minutes
Oct 11 20:45:12 <dwc-> I figured as much, but I was in a meeting when the email came in
Oct 11 20:45:24 <summatusmentis> you said "yep, all the apps dead) after both DougReeder and myself were talking about apps from elsewhere
Oct 11 20:45:43 <dwc-> sorry, wasn't reading
Oct 11 20:46:25 <dwc-> sugardave: any idea if the sunnyvale store touchstones are still 75% off?
Oct 11 20:46:31 <DougReeder> that should have been "Mail in Lion"
Oct 11 20:46:35 <summatusmentis> wut?!?
Oct 11 20:46:41 <summatusmentis> 75% off?
Oct 11 20:46:42 <summatusmentis> dang
Oct 11 20:46:56 <dwc-> yea, they were sold out the monday after the firesale announcement
Oct 11 20:46:58 <DougReeder> the Pre2 keyboard is far from perfect.
Oct 11 20:46:59 <rwatkins> at those prices I'd get one for every room
Oct 11 20:47:03 <halfhalo> yeah...
Oct 11 20:47:04 <dwc-> but they were 75% off... ~$22ish
Oct 11 20:47:10 <summatusmentis> holy crap
Oct 11 20:47:17 <halfhalo> stupid store only let me get one
Oct 11 20:47:20 <halfhalo> got like 5 phone ones though
Oct 11 20:47:28 <summatusmentis> DougReeder: I honestly didn't see it as that much better than the pre- keyboard
Oct 11 20:47:28 <dwc-> how did you get in the store before me?
Oct 11 20:47:33 <dwc-> you were behind me in the voucher line!
Oct 11 20:47:42 <rwatkins> ya, the phone ones were like $4 with free shipping from VZW at one point so have a bunch of those
Oct 11 20:47:45 <halfhalo> I was in the voucher line like 4 times
Oct 11 20:47:45 <sugardave> dwc-: no idea, but they said cases were 2 for $20
Oct 11 20:47:53 <halfhalo> and then i cheated and got cash
Oct 11 20:48:11 <dwc-> well.. maybe I'll go over and see what they have...
Oct 11 20:48:11 <DougReeder> I want a real keyboard- webOS on a netbook!
Oct 11 20:48:25 <summatusmentis> dwc-: buy 7
Oct 11 20:48:36 <dwc-> DougReeder: try any bluetooth keyboard
Oct 11 20:48:54 <sugardave> I already have 2 touchSTANDS (seriously, why didn't they call it that) and just got one more...that should be enough
Oct 11 20:48:56 <dwc-> I didn't find the special webos keys to be of much use because of poor keyboard integration with the GUI
Oct 11 20:49:21 <dwc-> like... you could put it into card view, but you couldn't use the cursor keys and enter keys to switch cards
Oct 11 20:49:21 <DougReeder> the TouchPad keyboard works fine, but I can't carry that around
Oct 11 20:50:20 <dwc-> summatusmentis: what am I going to do with 7 touchstands?
Oct 11 20:50:45 <Tibfib> DougReeder: I like sparrow better
Oct 11 20:50:45 <summatusmentis> the question is what _aren't_ you going to do with them
Oct 11 20:50:46 <DougReeder> hmm would be nice to have another TouchPad touchstone for the living room
Oct 11 20:50:56 <dwc-> I don't have 8 rooms to put them in?
Oct 11 20:50:58 <summatusmentis> dwc-: I'd buy one off you
Oct 11 20:51:06 <EricBlade> i want at least 3 more touchstones for my TPs.
Oct 11 20:51:11 <DougReeder> sparrow? is that a Bluetooth keyboard?
Oct 11 20:51:25 <summatusmentis> no, mail app
Oct 11 20:51:31 <summatusmentis> for OS X
Oct 11 20:51:57 <wrea> Yeah, I'd want one or two more touchstones
Oct 11 20:51:58 <dwc-> summatusmentis: by the time I ship it across the country it'd be fairly close to $40? which I think you can get 2 for from HP even
Oct 11 20:52:05 <DougReeder> ah, I'l add that as a task it Outline Tracker
Oct 11 20:52:07 <summatusmentis> yeah, touche
Oct 11 20:52:08 <bjawebos> Hi @all, are news available for HP and webOS?
Oct 11 20:52:10 <wrea> Hell, I still need a case
Oct 11 20:52:26 <summatusmentis> what news?
Oct 11 20:52:57 <Tibfib> wrea: case is awesome
Oct 11 20:52:58 <rwatkins> "we're dont know yet, but when we know, we'll let you know"
Oct 11 20:53:15 <rwatkins> did i get it right?
Oct 11 20:53:19 * dwc- poofs... off to the palm store...
Oct 11 20:53:19 <DougReeder> No news is not good news today.
Oct 11 20:53:27 * dwc- thinks it's funny he gets little-no cell reception at the palm store
Oct 11 20:53:36 <wrea> I wish I lived in the bay area still
Oct 11 20:54:06 <bjawebos> mmh
Oct 11 20:54:44 <EricBlade> dwc-: back in the day when Sprint was a new carrier, I was running one of the highest sales volume sprint retailers in Michigan, and we had to walk outside the location to get a signal
Oct 11 20:55:17 * DougReeder smiles
Oct 11 20:55:37 <sugardave> nice
Oct 11 20:56:37 <EricBlade> i remember one day we had this huge sale, and the signal was terribad that day due to rain fade, i was taking bags full of activated phones half a mile down the road to get them programmed
Oct 11 20:56:50 <DougReeder> Must have been a pain to activate in the winter.
Oct 11 20:57:02 <wrea> I wonder when I'll get my Veer
Oct 11 21:00:11 <Tibfib> DougReeder: I think no news is alright news
Oct 11 21:00:41 <rwatkins> or just 'after market close' news?
Oct 11 21:02:38 <DougReeder> every day without a credible public plan for new hardware is costing webos dearly
Oct 11 21:03:45 <summatusmentis> it also makes a credible plan for new hardware less credible
Oct 11 21:06:11 <Tibfib> sugardave: are they examples of virtual carousel?
Oct 11 21:06:45 <Tibfib> s/they/there/
Oct 11 21:07:52 <summatusmentis> Tibfib: http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/joydoctor/Carousel.html
Oct 11 21:08:01 <summatusmentis> it's angelfire.com, that's how you know it's good
Oct 11 21:08:37 <Tibfib> RIMSHAHT
Oct 11 21:09:52 <rwatkins> http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
Oct 11 21:10:10 <rwatkins> I particularly like :
Oct 11 21:10:11 <rwatkins> [ ] You have reinvented PHP but worse
Oct 11 21:10:12 <rwatkins> [ ] You have reinvented PHP better, but that's still no justification
Oct 11 21:10:15 <Khaytsus> Why hasn't angelfire been buried beside geocities?
Oct 11 21:10:32 <summatusmentis> because of fabulous things like that
Oct 11 21:12:28 <Tibfib> lol
Oct 11 21:18:08 <DougReeder> Sheesh, a backup of my source code repository plus my webOS directoy won't fit on one DVD
Oct 11 21:21:32 <halfhalo> ...
Oct 11 21:21:56 <summatusmentis> does your source code repo consist of hundreds of RAW files?
Oct 11 21:22:15 <halfhalo> or a git repo with one?  because big files in git will kill you
Oct 11 21:22:35 <summatusmentis> to be fair, git is always plotting to kill you
Oct 11 21:22:38 <summatusmentis> >_>
Oct 11 21:23:06 <sugardave> Tibfib: I have one, but you can't see it yet
Oct 11 21:23:08 <sugardave> sorry
Oct 11 21:23:22 <halfhalo> hah
Oct 11 21:23:27 <halfhalo> DENIED
Oct 11 21:23:28 <sugardave> there is a virtual carousel sample, though
Oct 11 21:24:03 <sugardave> my hint is to make the control kind capable of constructing itself, so that when the view create stuff is called, you can handle it appropriately
Oct 11 21:24:33 * halfhalo slams his head into his desk due to rails
Oct 11 21:25:18 <sugardave> er not control kind, view kind
Oct 11 21:26:49 <DougReeder> no, my repos is mostly source code
Oct 11 21:27:15 <DougReeder> only binaries are graphics, and those don't change often
Oct 11 21:27:55 <DougReeder> my webos folder has SDKs, etc
Oct 11 21:28:02 <dwc-> wrea: why'd you leave?
Oct 11 21:29:26 <dwc-> palm store status: line outside. employees mum. some holding 8.5x11 that look suspiciously like numbered vouchers. security guard in store will admit to having accessories, but will only cite me price on cases (2 for 20 or 25)
Oct 11 21:30:09 <summatusmentis> dwc-: so... they won't let you in?
Oct 11 21:30:18 <dwc-> so my guess is they have some "special" hardware in, besides the boxes of pre3s I saw on the front wall
Oct 11 21:30:36 <dwc-> summatusmentis: dunno, but I didn't have time to wait in the line just to find out that they won't /actually/ sell me anything
Oct 11 21:30:38 <rwatkins> 4G White TouchPad Gos
Oct 11 21:31:01 * DougReeder smiles
Oct 11 21:31:43 <dwc-> rwatkins: is that a guess or a statement
Oct 11 21:31:55 <rwatkins> that is myth
Oct 11 21:32:22 <rwatkins> but almost believeable enough
Oct 11 21:33:40 <wrea> So I'm guessing the palm store got more pre 3's in, since i thought i read they were sold out last week
Oct 11 21:33:48 <Tibfib> sugardave: jerkface
Oct 11 21:33:50 <Tibfib> found one
Oct 11 21:33:52 <Tibfib> should work
Oct 11 21:34:01 <fxspec06> the case has a design flaw
Oct 11 21:34:11 <fxspec06> the inside has plastic that runs around the edges, right.
Oct 11 21:34:20 <fxspec06> well the corner w/ the power button has NO plastic. all cartilidge
Oct 11 21:34:21 <dwc-> wrea: I saw the pre3s, but they've, afaik, not done vouchers for them since they've got so many
Oct 11 21:34:30 <fxspec06> so it stretches. there is zero reinforcement.
Oct 11 21:34:41 <Tibfib> sugardave: my current issue is that it starts at the second page
Oct 11 21:34:45 <Tibfib> not the first which is what I need
Oct 11 21:35:01 <wrea> Not talk it matters to the average joe since they're for employee's only
Oct 11 21:35:18 <fxspec06> BTW, is anybody else experiencing like. super unusually higher than normal sales today? or is it just me getting lucky for like one day.
Oct 11 21:35:26 <sugardave> Tibfib: you mean it always starts at the center?
Oct 11 21:35:35 <sugardave> or your center always has the wrong view?
Oct 11 21:35:36 <Tibfib> yeah
Oct 11 21:35:40 <Tibfib> starts at center
Oct 11 21:35:44 <Tibfib> but content starts at left
Oct 11 21:35:46 <DougReeder> check if previous days' sales are 0
Oct 11 21:35:50 <sugardave> you're doing it wrong
Oct 11 21:35:58 <rwatkins> fxspec06: your in the 'new' list i think
Oct 11 21:36:01 <Tibfib> YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG
Oct 11 21:36:10 <Tibfib> sugardave: whatcha mean?
Oct 11 21:36:15 <sugardave> in mine, my content starts at 0 index, and the center view holds that
Oct 11 21:36:22 <Tibfib> same here
Oct 11 21:36:30 <Tibfib> so I am doing it wrong
Oct 11 21:36:41 <sugardave> so it should be correct when you do renderViews(0)
Oct 11 21:37:20 <fxspec06> the new list is that important?! i've been in the new list before and i've never seen sales this high
Oct 11 21:37:20 <dwc-> wrea: sure it does. some average joes know employees and can give them tips
Oct 11 21:37:31 <dwc-> so that it's worth it for them to trek over there
Oct 11 21:37:43 <fxspec06> also my touchpad now has a hairline crack
Oct 11 21:38:56 <fxspec06> at least the frame is separate from the screen
Oct 11 21:40:06 <sugardave> Tibfib: https://gist.github.com/1279535
Oct 11 21:40:38 <WinterMute> fxspec06: is it your first time in the new list since the firesale?
Oct 11 21:40:48 <WinterMute> & what's your app?
Oct 11 21:40:50 <sugardave> then to make my carousel (once I have this.currentpages) I do: this.$.carousel.renderViews(0, true); this.$.carousel.resize();
Oct 11 21:40:56 <fxspec06> no way, it's been in there quite a few times.
Oct 11 21:41:15 <rwatkins> yes, but not with "99 cents!" in your app title
Oct 11 21:41:23 <fxspec06> last time though it only reached X sales, when opening day was X + 4
Oct 11 21:41:32 <fxspec06> this time it hit 3X + 5
Oct 11 21:42:04 <fxspec06> YES it's the "99 CENTS!"
Oct 11 21:42:07 <fxspec06> it's got to be lol
Oct 11 21:42:32 <DougReeder> got the TouchPad keyboard working with my Pre2, I try taking notes with this at the meeting tonight
Oct 11 21:42:35 <sugardave> I thought it was the shoes
Oct 11 21:42:54 <Tibfib> sugardave: hmmmm
Oct 11 21:42:55 <dwc-> DougReeder: yea, it pairs fine... but even less of the special keys are useful than on the touchpad
Oct 11 21:43:40 <Tibfib> sugardave: this is what I'm doing: http://pastebin.com/qB9P8eTB
Oct 11 21:43:42 * DougReeder nods
Oct 11 21:44:07 <Tibfib> sugardave: so I set the kind with the 3 items each
Oct 11 21:44:12 <DougReeder> I need an app which actually responds to the control key
Oct 11 21:44:28 <Tibfib> sugardave: the only issue I seem to have is that left starts at 0, the center starts at 3
Oct 11 21:45:10 <sugardave> try .renderViews(-1);  ?
Oct 11 21:45:23 <DougReeder> at least the cursor keys work
Oct 11 21:45:26 <Tibfib> sugardave: breaks it
Oct 11 21:45:43 <Tibfib>  this.$.carousel.renderViews(0); this.$.carousel.setIndex(0);
Oct 11 21:45:46 <Tibfib> that seems to work ^
Oct 11 21:46:11 <sugardave> ah, resize might reset the index
Oct 11 21:46:23 <sugardave> it's two lines for me, too...render then resize
Oct 11 21:46:25 <Tibfib> that would make sense
Oct 11 21:47:28 <sugardave> so....it is working then?
Oct 11 21:47:29 <Tibfib> sugardave: thanks!
Oct 11 21:47:31 <Tibfib> yep!
Oct 11 21:47:31 <sugardave> woo!
Oct 11 21:47:36 <Tibfib> performance is awesome in chrome
Oct 11 21:47:38 <Tibfib> time to try device
Oct 11 21:47:40 <sugardave> smooth isn't it?
Oct 11 21:47:44 <Tibfib> yeah
Oct 11 21:48:19 <sugardave> if you get "too fast" on device, you might notice a skip or two
Oct 11 21:48:52 <Tibfib> it's not perfect on device
Oct 11 21:48:57 <Tibfib> the image loading is pretty intensive
Oct 11 21:48:58 <Tibfib> hmmm
Oct 11 21:49:13 <sugardave> all my stuff is pre-rendered and sitting in an array
Oct 11 21:49:24 <Tibfib> yeah, it would be pretty smooth I think if the images weren't loading
Oct 11 21:49:50 <summatusmentis> THIS IS WHY IMAGES ARE BAD
Oct 11 21:49:54 <summatusmentis> WE DON'T NEED PICTURES
Oct 11 21:49:59 <summatusmentis> TEXT IS ALL ANYONE NEEDS
Oct 11 21:50:13 <sugardave> truly a word is worth 1000 pictures
Oct 11 21:50:14 <Tibfib> this is my next is smooth
Oct 11 21:50:38 <Tibfib> because they're jerks and truncate their feed.
Oct 11 21:50:44 <sugardave> hahaha
Oct 11 21:50:49 <summatusmentis> yeah, srsly
Oct 11 21:50:56 <summatusmentis> that's so irritating
Oct 11 21:51:19 <Tibfib> hmmmmmmmm
Oct 11 21:51:35 <Tibfib> I wonder if downloading preview images in teh future would be a good idea.
Oct 11 21:51:44 <summatusmentis> preview images?
Oct 11 21:51:59 <Tibfib> the image used in the cards
Oct 11 21:53:09 <summatusmentis> what is a preview image vs. a full-download image?
Oct 11 21:53:13 <summatusmentis> only half the bits?
Oct 11 22:04:35 <DougReeder> I'm off to the user group meeting!
Oct 11 22:04:43 * DougReeder waves goodbye
Oct 11 22:04:55 <sugardave> have fun!
Oct 11 23:19:14 <halfhalo> tis dead in here...
Oct 11 23:19:43 <wrea> yeah
Oct 12 00:07:11 <EricBlade> anyone ever come up with a workaround that actually works consistently for the corrupted notification icons ?
Oct 12 00:07:54 <Tibfib> summatusmentis:  it is the same thing
Oct 12 00:07:59 <Tibfib> but I could save it smaller
Oct 12 01:16:37 <leiru_> hi
Oct 12 01:16:48 <wrea> hi
Oct 12 01:16:58 <leiru_> what time is it in the us now?
Oct 12 01:17:37 <leiru_> google says in sunnyvale it is tuesday 18:13 ?
Oct 12 01:18:03 <Meetoman> 18:14
Oct 12 01:26:33 <leiru_> okay, it's Wed 03:22 in germany.
Oct 12 01:26:51 <leiru_> so no announcement from hp today :(
Oct 12 01:30:07 <Tibfib> complicated logic is complicated.
Oct 12 01:39:44 <leiru_> Tibfib_: when do you expect the HP announcement? tomorrow in your timezone?
Oct 12 01:40:10 <rwhitby> as if he would be able to tell you anything
Oct 12 01:40:45 <rwhitby> you're working off rumours that no HP person would be able to confirm or deny, even if they themselves actually knew (which is highly unlikely)
Oct 12 01:41:14 <wrea> But, I have a magic 8 ball! :P
Oct 12 01:41:34 <leiru_> rwhitby: but i can ask when and if others expect smth.
Oct 12 01:41:59 <rwhitby> leiru_: if you want to get someone fired, yes.
Oct 12 01:42:07 <rwhitby> not very polite thing to do though
Oct 12 01:42:23 <leiru_> is Tibfib_ a hp employee now?
Oct 12 01:42:36 <rwhitby> but yeah Tibfib_ isn't an employee, so is fine for hm
Oct 12 01:42:55 <rwhitby> I confused him with sugardave for a second there. my bad.
Oct 12 01:43:24 <leiru_> that would be indeed not a nice question.
Oct 12 01:43:29 <leiru_> to sugardave.
Oct 12 01:43:30 <rwhitby> but then anyone outside of HP has even less chance of knowing anything ...
Oct 12 01:43:47 <rwatkins> but on the other hand, zero chance of being fired over what they know!  :)
Oct 12 01:44:15 <rwhitby> rwatkins: but if they do know, 100% of screwing someone's confidence
Oct 12 01:45:35 <leiru_> i just wanted to know what others think about it - if they expect an announcement, or not... and when they think it will be.
Oct 12 01:45:46 <EricBlade> ok.. so.. by my understanding, if i have a bunch of stuff in a virtual repeater, aren't there only roughly the number of things that are actually visible on screen, supposed to be existing?
Oct 12 01:45:47 <leiru_> kind of small talk or so.
Oct 12 01:45:48 <rwatkins> its all just speculation
Oct 12 01:46:24 <rwhitby> speculation about the jobs of people in the channel
Oct 12 01:47:10 <rwhitby> don't forget it's real people with real families who are the subject of this speculation
Oct 12 01:47:19 <oil> tibfib isn't meg whitman?
Oct 12 01:47:36 <rwhitby> oil: I've never seen them in the same room
Oct 12 01:47:39 <rwatkins> EricBlade: there is likely some buffer past the screen, and it may be weighted based on how fast you scroll - check the implemetnation
Oct 12 01:47:57 <rwatkins> this is silicon valley, it happens every other week.
Oct 12 01:48:24 <oil> http://www.businessinsider.com/meg-whitman-may-not-spin-of-hps-hardware-business-2011-10?op=1
Oct 12 01:48:27 <rwatkins> people rarely stick around 50 years for the gold watch anymore.
Oct 12 01:48:31 <ser> I have a confession. I am Meg Whitman. The board and I met today and we discussed our sale of webOS to McDonalds. webOS will be powering the toys in their popular Happy Meals.
Oct 12 01:48:33 <oil> i got to the bottom of the article and read that only comment
Oct 12 01:48:38 <oil> had to scroll up, then lold
Oct 12 01:49:18 <EricBlade> rwatkins: hmm. well, i've got several examples of hundred line repeaters that are sucking up about 3000 dom nodes .. and then a guy pops up a 600 line repeater on me that is sucking up 22k dom nodes
Oct 12 01:49:23 <wrea> McOS
Oct 12 01:49:37 <rwhitby> macOS ?
Oct 12 01:49:47 <rwatkins> if your a talented person in the mobile industry in these times you are sought after and not goign to be looking for long.
Oct 12 01:49:58 * rwhitby bbl
Oct 12 01:51:02 <rwatkins> EricBlade: ya, dunno not dug into that part much.
Oct 12 01:51:03 <leiru_> i wouldn't see that in such a dramatical light and expect bad things. maybe smth good happens.
Oct 12 01:52:09 <leiru_> e.g. webOS in happy meals ;)
Oct 12 01:59:07 * DougReeder waves hello
Oct 12 02:00:43 <fxspec06> rwatkins: true true true true true.
Oct 12 02:09:37 <DougReeder> So, was there an "all hands" meeting at GBU today?
Oct 12 02:10:09 <summatusmentis> nothing's been reported, as far as I've seen
Oct 12 02:10:37 <rwatkins> other than the TechCrunch article that the 500 layoffs happened in SD
Oct 12 02:10:53 <DougReeder> A meeting starting at 5pm Pacific Time would have started two hours ago.
Oct 12 02:12:54 <DougReeder> meh, I'm going AFK
Oct 12 02:27:29 <fxspec06> maybe it's a really really long meeting
Oct 12 02:27:52 <fxspec06> like this |______| long
Oct 12 02:33:08 <Tibfib_> rwhitby:
Oct 12 02:33:12 <Tibfib_> that hurts.
Oct 12 02:33:16 <DougReeder> Maybe the meeting starts after the _Honolulu_ stock market closes.
Oct 12 02:33:49 <wrea> Heh
Oct 12 02:33:57 <Tibfib_> rwhitby: read through. I forgive you.
Oct 12 02:33:59 <rwatkins> maybe its just fallen way behind schedule, you know, best of intentions and all.
Oct 12 02:34:04 <rwatkins> like Pivot
Oct 12 02:34:33 <Tibfib_> 11 days is a long time to delay a monthly newspaper/newssomething
Oct 12 02:34:42 <rwatkins> you assume its still monthly
Oct 12 02:34:49 <Tibfib_> fair point
Oct 12 02:34:54 <Tibfib_> they might go quarterly
Oct 12 02:34:59 <Tibfib_> at least for now
Oct 12 02:35:13 <balrog> I think it's delayed. they promised it.
Oct 12 02:35:28 <Tibfib_> balrog: pivot or the meeting
Oct 12 02:35:33 <balrog> pivot
Oct 12 02:35:46 <rwatkins> oh Im sure its delayed
Oct 12 02:35:52 <rwatkins> its October 11th.
Oct 12 02:36:03 <balrog> was last month's delayed?
Oct 12 02:36:12 <rwatkins> was anything ever on time?
Oct 12 02:36:17 <balrog> ha
Oct 12 02:36:20 <rwatkins> thats the better question
Oct 12 02:36:43 <balrog> I hope they push out 3.0.3/3.0.4 soon :/
Oct 12 02:36:44 * Tibfib_ remembers past webOS updates
Oct 12 02:36:54 <Tibfib_> palm isn't good at the whole deadlines thing.
Oct 12 02:37:22 <rwatkins> ya, though I can cut them some slack on OS updates.  OS updates thru a carrier are a brutal process.
Oct 12 02:37:28 <balrog> urgh, well that's one thing you have to be good with
Oct 12 02:37:36 <balrog> rwatkins: true. then again, somehow apple gets around the carriers.
Oct 12 02:37:43 <rwatkins> ya, wonder how.
Oct 12 02:37:44 <balrog> probably because they have more negotiation power
Oct 12 02:37:51 <balrog> the carriers have to answer to them
Oct 12 02:38:11 <rwatkins> ya, kinda.  should read up on how steve jobs negotiates
Oct 12 02:38:56 <DougReeder> from a position of strength
Oct 12 02:38:59 <wrea> Hey bitches do what I say if you want my phone on your network
Oct 12 02:39:04 <balrog> http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2011/10/10/a-sociology-of-steve-jobs/ is worth reading
Oct 12 02:39:18 <fxspec06> actually pivot was never promised on the 1st of the month
Oct 12 02:39:23 <balrog> fxspec06: that is true.
Oct 12 02:39:32 <balrog> though if it falls after the 15th, I'd be worried
Oct 12 02:39:45 <balrog> btw, I have here an iPhone and a Touchpad :p
Oct 12 02:39:47 <rwatkins> more than just a postiion of power, he's unwilling to compromise.
Oct 12 02:39:48 <Tibfib_> fxspec06: right, going on past patterns
Oct 12 02:39:57 <fxspec06> maybe it has like 60 pages instead of 45
Oct 12 02:40:27 <Tibfib_> it's crazy how successful steve jobs was
Oct 12 02:40:28 <fxspec06> maybe they got special writers or something, or video content. who knows
Oct 12 02:40:42 <Tibfib_> It proves that making a good product should come before everything else.
Oct 12 02:40:46 <rwatkins> maybe the deadline just jumped up and suprised em
Oct 12 02:41:11 <Tibfib_> price, deadlines, etc.
Oct 12 02:41:13 <rwatkins> Tibfib_: way too many people have been sucked down the path of make it perfect and never ship as well
Oct 12 02:41:16 <rwatkins> steve shipped.
Oct 12 02:41:17 <fxspec06> maybe they had more important things to work on. like making sure people's apps went through and webos was working correctly
Oct 12 02:41:29 <balrog> remember, real artists ship.
Oct 12 02:41:30 <Tibfib_> rwatkins: fair point. there's a perfect balance
Oct 12 02:41:34 <Tibfib_> and steve jobs got it.
Oct 12 02:41:43 <balrog> http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship.txt
Oct 12 02:41:47 <DougReeder> And they've presumably lost some key people.
Oct 12 02:41:53 <fxspec06> steve jobs just hides everything he fails at
Oct 12 02:42:10 <fxspec06> you never hear about it because he covers it all up so well
Oct 12 02:42:19 <Tibfib_> no, he had many failures
Oct 12 02:42:23 <Tibfib_> that we all know about
Oct 12 02:42:26 <rwatkins> fun bit - i worked with one of those guys in that story
Oct 12 02:42:27 <balrog> G4 cube?
Oct 12 02:42:27 <fxspec06> he can make a piece of paper sound like the greatest piece of paper ever made
Oct 12 02:42:28 <Tibfib_> eMacs, mobile me, etc.
Oct 12 02:42:38 <balrog> it wasn't a failure in itself, it was a failure in the market.
Oct 12 02:42:51 <balrog> I wouldn't call eMacs a failure — they were big in the educational market
Oct 12 02:42:52 <Tibfib_> balrog: good point
Oct 12 02:42:53 <fxspec06> and sell that piece of paper for a zillion dollars, and everyone writing on the piece of paper. that's what made steve jobs great
Oct 12 02:43:06 <balrog> you could call the NeXT a failure, but the OS that was built for it now powers every Mac, iPhone, and iPad.
Oct 12 02:43:31 <rwatkins> wrote prototypes w/ Steve Capps
Oct 12 02:43:46 <fxspec06> steve was a visionary, he was able to see above and beyond what normal people are able to.
Oct 12 02:43:55 <balrog> rwatkins: oh, nice.
Oct 12 02:44:12 <rwatkins> at Microsoft rather than Apple, but ya.
Oct 12 02:44:19 <balrog> Bill Atkinson did a lot of interesting stuff to. Heck, he invented QuickDraw, MacPaint, and HyperCard.
Oct 12 02:44:20 <Tibfib_> rwatkins: nice
Oct 12 02:44:32 <balrog> too*
Oct 12 02:44:46 <rwatkins> I dont think I could have ever worked for Steve tho
Oct 12 02:45:10 <fxspec06> steve jobs is the perfect example of the right guy born at the right time who met the right people who bought the right things who hit every lucky stick along the way
Oct 12 02:45:34 <fxspec06> and we will all remember him for that
Oct 12 02:45:48 <balrog> hah, bringing apple back in the late 90s … that was lucky all right
Oct 12 02:46:09 <rwatkins> I liek this one : http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Saving_Lives.txt
Oct 12 02:46:39 <rwatkins> work harder or your killing people!
Oct 12 02:46:44 <fxspec06> omg great story
Oct 12 02:46:51 <balrog> yeah. interestingly OS X boot time was improved every version
Oct 12 02:46:51 <fxspec06> ++++++++++++++++++++++1
Oct 12 02:47:01 <balrog> rwatkins: the floppy drive story is cool
Oct 12 02:47:53 <DougReeder> In Snow Leopard, the progress bar is fake -- the system usually goes to the finder before it completes.
Oct 12 02:47:58 <fxspec06> how hard can it be to thrive in a market where there's like 3 competitors?!?
Oct 12 02:48:03 <balrog> DougReeder: false, you're talking about 10.4 I think
Oct 12 02:48:09 <DougReeder> Depends on the competitors.
Oct 12 02:48:14 <balrog> Apple dropped the progress bar by 10.6
Oct 12 02:48:18 <fxspec06> a.k.a. the mcintosh in 1983
Oct 12 02:48:32 <balrog> it just goes straight to the login screen or desktop
Oct 12 02:48:48 <balrog> fxspec06: today? it's about making a better product, and shipping it. and pricing it well.
Oct 12 02:48:56 <balrog> and better doesn't mean better specs.
Oct 12 02:49:02 <Tibfib_> fxspec06: haters gonna hate.
Oct 12 02:49:56 <fxspec06> you really just need the time and resources. steve jobs' success was predetermined by his motivation and work ethic, and determination to succeed. it could have happened in any business category, it just so happened in this universe in this lifetime steve jobs was a computer god
Oct 12 02:50:13 <fxspec06> in a separate universe steve jobs probably flies nasa to mars
Oct 12 02:50:20 <balrog> fxspec06: that's true. but then why do 99% of companies just screw up?
Oct 12 02:50:28 <balrog> (your first statement)
Oct 12 02:50:43 <fxspec06> because 99% of companies aren't as smart as steve jobs
Oct 12 02:50:48 <balrog> or as they could be
Oct 12 02:50:57 <balrog> seems like we're lacking common sense. a lot.
Oct 12 02:51:45 <DougReeder> Most companies reward other things than producing good products.
Oct 12 02:51:58 <DougReeder> As in, products users really value.
Oct 12 02:52:23 <balrog> too many companies don't have users as their customers
Oct 12 02:52:31 <balrog> i.e. microsoft. the OEMs are their customers
Oct 12 02:52:58 <balrog> phone manufacturers before the iPhone, the network providers were their customers
Oct 12 02:52:59 <balrog> etc
Oct 12 02:53:12 <rwatkins> the OEMS is their bitch you mean
Oct 12 02:53:16 <balrog> even google's primary customers are advertisers, you could say
Oct 12 02:53:34 <balrog> rwatkins: they do things to favor the OEM, not the end user
Oct 12 02:53:34 <rwatkins> MSFT tells the OEMS how its gonna be, not the otherway around
Oct 12 02:53:51 <balrog> like, MS could require that OEMs can't bundle crapware with computers if they want to be Windows Logo certified
Oct 12 02:54:12 <rwatkins> balrog: the courts would disagree with you
Oct 12 02:54:30 <balrog> rwatkins: where's the FTC here? :(
Oct 12 02:54:47 <rwatkins> you think MSN wanted that little AOL icon on there?  I dont think so.
Oct 12 02:55:09 <balrog> then just don't preinstall it.
Oct 12 02:55:35 <balrog> computers come from the factory horribly slow because of preinstalled junk
Oct 12 02:55:36 <fxspec06> balrog you are missing a huge point
Oct 12 02:55:49 <balrog> it doesn't improve the image of Windows
Oct 12 02:55:51 <fxspec06> microsoft doesn't make as much money without OEM's
Oct 12 02:55:56 <balrog> of course
Oct 12 02:56:04 <DougReeder> Windows doesn't sell based on its image.
Oct 12 02:56:15 <fxspec06> but the law allows OEMs to install software on the computers. that is NOT up to windows at all
Oct 12 02:56:21 <fxspec06> it doesn't harm MS's image IMO
Oct 12 02:56:27 <fxspec06> it harms the OEM's image
Oct 12 02:56:28 <rwatkins> my point is if MSFT layed down the law and said "no AOL on Windows" they woudl lose in court.
Oct 12 02:56:45 <fxspec06> yes. because anyone can clearly install anything on any computer they own
Oct 12 02:56:53 <balrog> they'd also have to not bundle MSN with windows
Oct 12 02:56:56 <fxspec06> if an OEM has a license to distribute windows ... then they have a license
Oct 12 02:56:58 <rwatkins> no I mean if they told that to HP or Dell.
Oct 12 02:57:08 <balrog> well, they'll be locking down Metro
Oct 12 02:57:24 <fxspec06> once the OEM has the license, they can do whatever they want with it
Oct 12 02:57:33 <balrog> apps will have to be sold/purchased through thir app store
Oct 12 02:57:35 <balrog> their*
Oct 12 02:57:36 <rwatkins> fxspec06: sure, but they can also not get a license next year.
Oct 12 02:57:49 <fxspec06> yes, exactly
Oct 12 02:57:53 <fxspec06> they always have that choice
Oct 12 02:58:03 <rwatkins> so that argument is moot - its the court that comes in and says MSFT you cant play that game.
Oct 12 02:58:17 <balrog> rwatkins: do you think the courts will come down on the Metro App Store?
Oct 12 02:58:19 <rwatkins> regardless of the license or not
Oct 12 02:58:20 <PatrickC> hey all
Oct 12 02:58:40 <rwatkins> balrog: its a different landscape now, but we'll see.
Oct 12 02:59:05 <rwatkins> I think its Apple thats needs to get hit with the anti-competitive stick this time around.
Oct 12 02:59:20 <rwatkins> they're the new big gorilla.
Oct 12 02:59:38 <balrog> if they start messing around with forcing appstores on the Mac, I'd be somewhat worried.
Oct 12 02:59:47 <balrog> they'd probably lose market share though
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Oct 12 02:59:57 2011