**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 22 03:00:00 2012
Apr 22 03:18:59 <EricBlade1> if anyone can tell me why this app is blowing up in webOS, I'd love to hear it.  Doesn't start, errors instantly.  "Syntax error line 2 index.html" .. https://github.com/ericblade/webos-messaging-connector/tree/master/app
Apr 22 03:32:21 <scoutcamper> EricBlade1, 0.o
Apr 22 03:32:31 <scoutcamper> EricBlade1, uhhhhhhhhh
Apr 22 03:33:20 <scoutcamper> i'd love to hear it as well.
Apr 22 03:51:02 <EricBlade1> i'm thinking maybe there's an invisible character that i can't find in any editor
Apr 22 04:36:33 <dwc-> dunno, but webos won't have a "C:\Program Files (x86)\..."
Apr 22 04:55:05 <EricBlade1> dwc-: no but palm-package is correctly rewriting it
Apr 22 04:55:28 <EricBlade1> the app is directly taken from the palm-generate
Apr 22 04:55:45 <EricBlade1> with the scroller component that it put in there removed
Apr 22 05:58:02 <EricBlade1> wow, ridiculuos.  speedtest.net says i get 1.45mbps up and down on my pre3, tethered to my pc
Apr 22 05:58:15 <EricBlade1> it says i get 1.0 down and 0.1 up on the pre3
Apr 22 07:43:09 <EricBlade> oooh "unexpected ;" is my most favorite error!
Apr 22 07:43:17 <EricBlade> with no line numbers
Apr 22 07:43:37 <EricBlade> and a thousand lines of code, most of which end with ;
Apr 22 08:00:16 <hotdp> Its funny
Apr 22 08:00:34 <hotdp> I never expect a error
Apr 22 08:16:41 <dwc-> probably a missing " somewhere
Apr 22 08:17:06 <dwc-> or a reserved keyword missing an argument
Apr 22 17:09:44 <EricBlade> alright, I have spent 8 hrs bashing my head on ActivityManager .. time to move on grrr
Apr 22 19:01:52 <albert> hello
Apr 22 19:02:16 <Guest51029> i still use a palm pre with webos 1.4.5
Apr 22 19:02:30 <Guest51029> can i update to the last webos version?
Apr 22 19:10:07 <RagingMind> Guest51029, if you are sorta familiar with a *nix command line you can use the MetaDoctor tool to update your pre to 2.1
Apr 22 19:12:01 <Guest51029> RagingMind: yes i am
Apr 22 19:12:02 <Guest51029> but
Apr 22 19:12:10 <Guest51029> is 2.1 the last?
Apr 22 19:12:26 <Guest51029> will it be slower than the one i have?
Apr 22 19:12:33 <RagingMind> it's the last one that *I* will recommend for a pre
Apr 22 19:13:09 <RagingMind> there is a metacodtor script to update it to 2.2.4, but there are warnings in the file about potential issues with cloud services
Apr 22 19:13:20 <Guest51029> i don't use the phone as phone i just have it in dock and sometimes i take it to use flashcards
Apr 22 19:13:35 <RagingMind> Guest51029, I have been using my pre on 2.1 for a long time now
Apr 22 19:13:38 <Guest51029> so battery wouldnt be a problem for me
Apr 22 19:14:08 <RagingMind> I don't have battery issues, but because 2.1 was never fully optimized for the pre there are times that it lags a little
Apr 22 19:14:33 <Guest51029> are you still using pre (not plus) with 2.1?
Apr 22 19:14:39 <RagingMind> for me the extra features outweigh the hassle of the occasional laggy moment
Apr 22 19:15:00 <RagingMind> ah... hmm... I'm on a pre+ and yes I still use it heavily every day
Apr 22 19:15:37 <Guest51029> i remember how i had 2.1 i think some months or years ago it worked fine unless some lag sometimes
Apr 22 19:16:08 <Guest51029> but i would like if anything has changed during this time i don't know anything about the scene
Apr 22 19:16:33 <RagingMind> the only time that the lag is frustrating for me is when I'm on the phone and trying to use a menu that requires me to enter numbers, but now I just always use the physical keyboard and it's not an issue
Apr 22 19:18:01 <RagingMind> Guest51029, the opensourcing (which is the next big step) won't be done till mid summer.  from there I think a lot of different devs have ideas on getting it working on new/old hardware
Apr 22 19:18:04 <Guest51029> so i assume palm isnt going to update officially palm pre or plus right?
Apr 22 19:18:18 <RagingMind> that's a fairly good assumption
Apr 22 19:19:01 <Guest51029> don't know if wait for a webos fork or what
Apr 22 19:19:14 <Guest51029> probably i will make it 2.1 until is done
Apr 22 19:19:22 <RagingMind> there's not any plans for a fork
Apr 22 19:19:32 <Guest51029> oh
Apr 22 19:19:48 <Guest51029> so what is plained?
Apr 22 19:20:31 <RagingMind> just the releasing of source code for the next generation of the platform (many assume it would have been webOS 4)
Apr 22 19:20:54 <Guest51029> come on
Apr 22 19:21:03 <Guest51029> i hate palm and hp
Apr 22 19:22:40 <RagingMind> they are continuing to work on it and they've released extra bits from the current 3.0.5 release to help the community work with current hardware (just touchpad I think)
Apr 22 19:23:31 <RagingMind> I hate Leo.  I think the current people at HPalm are trying to work with the cluster F**K that he made
Apr 22 19:24:40 <Guest51029> yeah
Apr 22 19:53:49 <PatrickC_Away> hey guys
Apr 22 19:57:02 <panel> PatrickC_Away hey
Apr 22 19:57:23 <PatrickC> hey panel
Apr 22 19:57:26 <PatrickC> long time no see
Apr 22 19:58:29 <panel> lot of work
Apr 22 19:59:12 <panel> I'm happy when I'm in bed last two weeks
Apr 22 20:00:22 <PatrickC> lol
Apr 22 20:01:37 <PatrickC> hmm.. i think ill be staying inside of Ubuntu for a while :)
Apr 22 20:01:59 <panel> why
Apr 22 20:30:51 <PatrickC> panel, sorry.. was afk
Apr 22 20:31:06 <PatrickC> i really like Linux.. and Ubuntu is the best Linux that I have right now till I can get OS X :)
Apr 22 20:36:21 <cwayne> ha!
Apr 22 20:36:31 <cwayne> how do i always walk in when someone says ubuntu :P
Apr 22 20:39:37 <PatrickC> hehe
Apr 22 20:39:40 <PatrickC> you have it ping you :P
Apr 22 20:40:00 <PatrickC> cwayne, i must say.. 12.04 is much better
Apr 22 20:40:04 <PatrickC> i wasn't expecting it
Apr 22 20:43:35 <EricBlade> will it let me run 3 monitors with 2 on one Nvidia card and 1 on an ATI card?
Apr 22 20:43:50 <EricBlade> most linux people laugh at me and say that's not possible
Apr 22 20:44:26 <cwayne> maybe, i've never tried
Apr 22 20:44:33 <cwayne> im sure you could with enough xorg.conf shenanigans
Apr 22 20:47:10 <PatrickC> EricBlade, just in case you didnt know, cwayne works for Canonical :)
Apr 22 20:47:30 <PatrickC> so he could probably answer most Ubuntu related questions, or find the answers (like he has for me lol)
Apr 22 20:50:10 <EricBlade> cwayne: oh nice.  well, when I tried the 11.04 installer, it worked fine with all 3 monitors.  And as soon as the installed OS started, it decided that was most definitely not appropriate.
Apr 22 20:50:41 <cwayne> EricBlade: hmm, i assume it wasn't using proprietary drivers on install
Apr 22 20:50:45 <cwayne> it usually uses vesa
Apr 22 20:51:44 <EricBlade> it doesn't use proprietary either in the OS until you go and install them. . i think
Apr 22 20:52:38 <cwayne> right
Apr 22 20:53:14 <cwayne> hmm, ill have to think about that, never tried it (though I could maybe try and toss something together in the office and test it)
Apr 22 20:53:42 <PatrickC> cwayne, i see a quick bugfix for 12.04 before release in a few days :P
Apr 22 20:53:43 <PatrickC> hehe
Apr 22 20:54:05 <EricBlade> cwayne: if that worked, i could actually dual boot without wanting to cry :)
Apr 22 20:54:23 <cwayne> EricBlade: hmm, ill ask around :)
Apr 22 20:55:33 <EricBlade> my motherboard has a radeon 3000 series built in, and a nvidia gts 450 pci-e .. it works great in Windows.  I've even run 4 monitors on it, even though the manual says you specifically can't operate in the configuration i'm using
Apr 22 20:56:02 <EricBlade> something like "you can only use one connector or the other on the built in card, but not both"
Apr 22 20:57:12 <cwayne> hah
Apr 22 20:57:15 <cwayne> hmm, it should work
Apr 22 20:57:22 <cwayne> theoeritically, it could work with all OSS drivers also
Apr 22 20:57:35 <cwayne> i'd say best bet is wait a couple days, and burn a live cd of 12.04
Apr 22 20:57:41 <cwayne> then apt-get install radeon && nouveau
Apr 22 20:58:12 <PatrickC> cwayne, how do i get fonts like Times New Roman and Georgia on LibreOffice? :P i cant find it on the interwebs haha
Apr 22 20:58:28 <EricBlade> PatrickC: so what kind of synergy messaging connector are you going to make
Apr 22 20:58:30 <cwayne> PatrickC: cmon, just use the ubuntu font, its awesome
Apr 22 20:58:42 <PatrickC> cwayne, i need to save it as an office doc :/
Apr 22 20:58:53 <PatrickC> EricBlade, a google voice one. i hear that hasnt been done yet
Apr 22 20:58:54 <cwayne> PatrickC: psh
Apr 22 20:59:25 <PatrickC> my printer won't recognize an odt file extention if i email the file to it :/ and thats the only way i can get my laptop to print right now haha.. to email the file to it :P
Apr 22 20:59:51 <cwayne> PatrickC: try sudo apt-get install ttf-mscorefonts-installer
Apr 22 21:02:06 <PatrickC> cwayne, hmm.. says its already installed..
Apr 22 21:03:06 <cwayne> PatrickC: you should already have em
Apr 22 21:03:20 <PatrickC> i dont see them..
Apr 22 21:03:38 <cwayne> try fonts-linuxlibertine
Apr 22 21:04:38 <PatrickC> that one wasnt installed
Apr 22 21:07:54 <PatrickC> i think it was because i didn't accept the EULA for the ttf-mscorefonts-installer to begin with
Apr 22 21:08:46 <PatrickC> and it worked! thanks cwayne lol
Apr 22 21:11:29 <cwayne> PatrickC: yeah, that's prolly why
Apr 22 21:16:19 <PatrickC> it worked, saved as a .doc fine, and printed just fine :)
Apr 22 21:16:20 <PatrickC> thanks
Apr 22 21:17:05 <cwayne> PatrickC: np
Apr 22 21:17:09 * cwayne goes back to work 
Apr 22 21:17:12 <PatrickC> have fun
Apr 22 21:18:04 <PatrickC> EricBlade, u have any flash drives laying around that you arent using currently? ive found that they work much better then a DVD for installing Ubuntu when you do go to install Ubuntu :)
Apr 22 21:25:30 <EricBlade> ok, so seriously, i have the Synergy Messaging template pretty much completed, except for getting it to detect when a new message is typed into the messaging app and sending it out.  just waiting to be filled in with code to give it a transport
Apr 22 21:25:49 <PatrickC> EricBlade, FACEBOOK!!!! :)
Apr 22 21:25:52 <PatrickC> or IRC
Apr 22 21:33:55 <EricBlade> unfortunately, things that require a persistent connection will require much more study on my part i think
Apr 22 22:39:41 <PatrickC> cwayne, ubuntu 12.10 now has a release schedule? nice
Apr 22 23:57:38 <moshe5368> evening
Apr 23 00:56:08 <Tibfib_> does the "folder" analogy with files break down when you allow a single file into multiple folders?
Apr 23 01:05:30 <EricBlade> hmm. all the wrestling with messaging service, only to finally make contact with someone who's made one before, and just never cataloged it
Apr 23 01:42:22 <fxspec06_> how can a single file be in multiple folders
Apr 23 01:42:35 <fxspec06_> that's not folder, that's something else. that's more like a library
Apr 23 01:42:50 <Tibfib_> that's what I'm saying
Apr 23 01:42:58 <Tibfib_> the folder metaphor breaks down when you start to allow that
Apr 23 01:43:58 <fxspec06_> yep
Apr 23 01:44:37 <Tibfib_> boy I want to work on UX
Apr 23 01:44:46 <Tibfib_> I hate osx's finder. windows is okay
Apr 23 01:45:06 <jrabbit> Tibfib_: you cant do that
Apr 23 01:45:07 <Tibfib_> I hate teh folder filesystem
Apr 23 01:45:14 <Tibfib_> jrabbit: curse you
Apr 23 01:45:25 <jrabbit> 75.367  < Tibfib_> does the "folder" analogy with files break down when you allow a single file into multiple folders?
Apr 23 01:45:35 <Tibfib_> oh
Apr 23 01:46:02 <Tibfib_> yeah. I agree.
Apr 23 01:46:37 <jrabbit> except in like the broken HFS+ version for time machine that allows hardlinking folders
Apr 23 01:48:28 <summatusmentis> Tibfib_: what do you hate about finder?
Apr 23 01:49:03 <Tibfib_> I hate that there are four different views and I don't want to use any of them
Apr 23 01:50:17 <fxspec06_> i like the vertical split view
Apr 23 01:50:24 <fxspec06_> folder columns
Apr 23 01:50:26 <Tibfib_> that's the one I typically use
Apr 23 01:50:38 <fxspec06_> but the rest are meh
Apr 23 01:51:18 <Tibfib_> I hate that in that view, looking at pic thumbnails is a pain
Apr 23 01:55:26 <EricBlade> there's only one good thing about macos that i've located.  the command prompt.
Apr 23 01:56:05 <Merjout> I like the mac devices but prefer windows. IOS is pretty good though
Apr 23 01:56:19 * EricBlade plugs his ears LA LA LA LA LA
Apr 23 01:56:22 <EricBlade> :)
Apr 23 01:57:12 <EricBlade> company i'm contracting for shipped me a Mac Mini to be able to build our project there, and uuuuuuuuugh i felt like i time travelled 25 years backwards
Apr 23 01:57:23 <Tibfib_> There are a lot of things I like about osx
Apr 23 01:57:41 <Tibfib_> and a lot of things I like about win7. Both are pretty solid
Apr 23 01:58:01 <Tibfib_> It does seem taht the best apps come for osx… and for that reason I'll probably stick to osx
Apr 23 01:58:42 <Merjout> best apps are on Mac?
Apr 23 01:59:10 <Merjout> I always thought the opposite
Apr 23 02:00:28 <Tibfib_> yeah
Apr 23 02:00:49 <Tibfib_> at least more aesthetically pleasing/better designed
Apr 23 02:01:40 <Merjout> I feel that way about IOS apps compared to all the other mobile platforms but not OSX
Apr 23 02:02:12 <Tibfib_> hmmm maybe I just never found the good apps on windows
Apr 23 02:02:21 <Tibfib_> have any in mind?
Apr 23 02:03:03 <Merjout> often times the same app on macos and windows have the windows version with more features
Apr 23 02:05:27 <Merjout> who also develops for ios? I saw flashcards in app store. Does not seem to be getting much love
Apr 23 02:05:48 <fxspec06_> wild'n video poker is on ios. webos is doing better
Apr 23 02:06:01 <Merjout> the bar is set high on ios
Apr 23 02:06:34 <fxspec06_> more opportunity, less probability, steeper scale
Apr 23 02:07:38 <Tibfib_> opportunity and probability are inversely related in this case unfortunately
Apr 23 02:11:35 <fxspec06_> in the case for the independent developer, i believe all platforms have roughly an equal chance for success. i believe there are similar number of dev crowds developing for all platforms. obviously, the numbers are far higher for ios, but for a single guy who makes apps in his spare time i think the numbers are far less than they seem
Apr 23 02:12:18 <fxspec06_> i think there's this idea that there are hundreds of thousands of indy devs for ios, when that's just flat out wrong
Apr 23 02:13:14 <fxspec06_> take for account the ipod touch has been around since when, 04? then the iphone since 06/07 and ipad since 09.. sure there's a ton of devs but it's still a small crowd.
Apr 23 02:14:02 <fxspec06_> the problem is there are teams out there that work together and make great apps, and those are the apps people want to buy. for the indy dev, there's no more chance on ios to make chump change as there is for any other platform IMO.
Apr 23 02:14:50 <fxspec06_> obviously i could be wrong / way off target. but to get noticed, it's more than just one guy in his spare time
Apr 23 02:15:28 <fxspec06_> in many ways webos is a superior platform in that regard
Apr 23 02:15:41 <Merjout> I just tried your app
Apr 23 02:16:11 <fxspec06_> s/is/was for a while. haven't released a new app in a while
Apr 23 02:16:22 <fxspec06_> Merjout: cool, what'd you think? :P
Apr 23 02:18:03 <Merjout> I am not a card game fan. There is no online play? Tried the free version
Apr 23 02:18:22 <fxspec06_> nah, no online play. maybe in the next version
Apr 23 02:18:49 <fxspec06_> i haven't had the time i wanted to work on it. school took over my life this semester.
Apr 23 02:19:30 <Tibfib_> fxspec06_: I think there are thousands of indy devs for iOS
Apr 23 02:19:41 <Tibfib_> maybe not hundreds of thousands…
Apr 23 02:19:48 <Tibfib_> there's a lot though
Apr 23 02:22:10 <fxspec06_> right, but how much are they all making? part time indys cannot possibly be floating in dollar dollar bills
Apr 23 02:22:28 <fxspec06_> it's less glamorous than some people would lead you to believe
Apr 23 02:23:57 <fxspec06_> my point is, i think it's easier to try hard and fail harder on ios than it is on a platform like say, webos
Apr 23 02:24:43 <Tibfib_> and I agree with you there.
Apr 23 02:24:44 <fxspec06_> on a small platform you can try hard and most likely not fall flat on your face. on ios, you can try ridiculously hard and the odds of making no money are pretty high
Apr 23 02:24:59 <Merjout> I think the bar for webos is low and there aren't that many options so easier I guess for someone that does it in spare time
Apr 23 02:25:33 <Merjout> on IOS the ar is high so you need to produce quality but I have seen some crap sell a lot
Apr 23 02:26:14 <Merjout> just get a propular website to preview your app for sales
Apr 23 02:27:02 <fxspec06_> even then, people need to actually find your app in the store, which is the hardest part
Apr 23 02:27:12 <Merjout> i think the only people left making webos apps are indie
Apr 23 02:27:34 <fxspec06_> most likely, which is in a way beneficial to the system
Apr 23 02:27:46 <Merjout> all you need to do is have a link in a web preview. You can buy the app straight from the pc
Apr 23 02:27:52 <fxspec06_> and in other ways it hurts.
Apr 23 02:28:08 <Tibfib_> fxspec06_: it's good for devs, bad for users
Apr 23 02:28:12 <Tibfib_> users care about good apps
Apr 23 02:28:25 <Tibfib_> indies are less likely to produce good apps than companies
Apr 23 02:28:49 <fxspec06_> yep. but a single indy dev can only produce so much so fast.. as in, it's usually not a lot and it usually doesn't come very fast
Apr 23 02:30:09 <fxspec06_> small app company webos doesn't make sense, though. for that you'd clearly have the time and resources to make it nice, and for that you'd go for ios. which makes it harder for ios indy's
Apr 23 02:30:56 <fxspec06_> i think the "app" is a boom phase that's soon gonna go the way of websites when the internet first became popular in the 00's
Apr 23 02:31:20 <fxspec06_> it's a market that's going to be dominated by companies, eventually, so make the $$ while you can
Apr 23 02:31:52 <Merjout> a lot of the apps are just web apps
Apr 23 02:32:15 <Merjout> why are web apps on webos so slow compared to other platforms? I don't get that
Apr 23 02:32:28 <Merjout> that's what screwed webos from the start
Apr 23 02:32:46 <fxspec06_> firstly, android web apps are slowest than any other platform
Apr 23 02:32:54 <Merjout> really?
Apr 23 02:32:59 <fxspec06_> second, ios webkit is the fastest you'll find on any platform
Apr 23 02:33:07 <Merjout> i have an android phone and I don't find anything about it to be slow
Apr 23 02:33:15 <fxspec06_> and i'd prove it but i didn't bookmark the links.
Apr 23 02:36:11 <Merjout> what happened to webos internals? are they still active
Apr 23 02:37:15 <JunJi> is there any quantitative benchmarking comparing android and webos' app speed?
Apr 23 02:41:32 <fxspec06_> http://spaceport.io/spaceport_perfmarks_report_2012_3.pdf
Apr 23 02:41:40 <fxspec06_> there it is
Apr 23 02:42:00 <fxspec06_> webos isn't on there
Apr 23 02:42:17 <fxspec06_> but i promise it performs roughly on par with the playbook. they use the same version of webkit
Apr 23 02:42:40 <Merjout> i have used webos phone and android. Android is much much faster
Apr 23 02:42:49 <fxspec06_> these are WEB apps
Apr 23 02:43:19 <Merjout> with webos i wait roughly 5-10+ seconds for an app to start
Apr 23 02:43:20 <fxspec06_> they use webkit to render. android does not use gpu accelleration before version 4.0
Apr 23 02:43:30 <fxspec06_> again, these are web apps
Apr 23 02:44:04 <fxspec06_> they will load similar on all platforms regardless. it is different when comparing binary packaged android and ios apps to web apps which are interpreted
Apr 23 02:44:40 <JunJi> thanks fxspec06_, I'll take a look at this now
Apr 23 02:46:42 <fxspec06_> np. now i will resume watching hockey and trying to figure out what left of school work i have to do before the semester ends
Apr 23 02:49:44 <EricBlade> i just tried every app on my touchpad and my ipad, and the majority of them on my touchapd were around 3-4 second start times, with the majority of them on ipad being around 9 seconds.  Time on both were counted from the time i tapped to the time I was able to actually input to the program, with the iPad 2 suffering from some quite surprising input lags at startup
Apr 23 02:49:55 <EricBlade> of course, the TouchPad did as well, but that's normal for the TouchPad
Apr 23 02:51:19 <EricBlade> Minimum time to start was on TouchPad, with one app starting imperctibly long after I tapped it (not really an app just the preware kernel app), iOS was about 1 second for one app .. worst time was on iPad where Box took 18 seconds to get running.  The TouchPad version of Box took only 3 seconds
Apr 23 02:51:29 <fxspec06_> a lot of ppl don't realize too that ios has "dummy" screens for waiting til' the app was fully loaded
Apr 23 02:51:33 <EricBlade> Box on all platforms except iOS is complete garbage, though
Apr 23 02:52:05 <EricBlade> and it's actually surprisingly the worst app I've seen on PlayBook that actually worked -and- served a purpose.
Apr 23 02:52:37 <EricBlade> that reminds me, let's see what's new in PlayBook world today
Apr 23 02:52:39 <fxspec06_> playbook has a fast webkit, but the OS suffers from more lag than the touchpad. which says something.
Apr 23 02:53:24 <EricBlade> the webkit on playbook is amazing.  native apps can be quite fast, but all the stuff i've seen that was native could be counted on one hand
Apr 23 02:53:56 <EricBlade> as far as webapps go, playbook smokes webos
Apr 23 02:54:04 <EricBlade> but no one's using it for anything
Apr 23 02:54:55 <EricBlade> new in PlayBook world today. eBooks, porno eBooks, and a "which perfume should i buy" app
Apr 23 02:59:26 <Tibfib_> night everyone
Apr 23 02:59:34 <fxspec06_> night. same here
Apr 23 02:59:43 <Tibfib_> I said it first
Apr 23 02:59:44 <Tibfib_> i win
Apr 23 02:59:46 * fxspec06_ good job kings
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Apr 23 02:59:58 2012