**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 06 02:59:58 2012 Aug 06 03:07:06 And it's not installing the drivers, even from the doctor image... Aug 06 03:10:53 There... Had to pull the .msi out of the doctor image and run it manually... Aug 06 03:10:59 Darn thing. Aug 06 03:24:04 That's weird... The pictures were there, just in the wrong order... It went back and filled in the "gaps" of *.jpg filenames, caused by videos... Aug 06 03:27:40 interesting Aug 06 04:19:56 PatrickC: hello my good friend Aug 06 04:19:57 there he is.. Aug 06 04:19:59 :) Aug 06 04:21:18 haha Aug 06 17:52:54 this channel is really dead. What happened to webOS Aug 06 17:53:49 jacobo21: HP Aug 06 17:53:50 is it wise to release open webos the same time as iPhone 5? Aug 06 17:53:59 I sense it will be released and no one will care Aug 06 18:01:20 jacobo21, if you wanna troll, I suggest finding a forum in some dark un-read corner of the internet to do it in Aug 06 18:02:04 what is troll? Aug 06 18:07:36 jacobo, there is no way that you don't know what trolling is, since you are able to figure out how to connect to IRC Aug 06 18:09:40 according to the wiki definition a troll is an internet slang for someone who posts inflammatory or off topic messages Aug 06 18:10:05 I think what I said has some truth to it Aug 06 18:11:45 I am trying to figure out what to do with the touchpad. If I sell it I wouldn't make anything. If I keep it will sit there collecting dust. I was hoping for open webOS at least. Aug 06 18:12:22 jacobo21: the biggest thing is there are lots of non-developers hoping for things rather than trying to help out Aug 06 18:14:03 that's true. a lot of people are acting like they are entitled to what homebrew provides, rather than acting thankful for it Aug 06 18:14:11 GodGinrai, he's on a webchat, so the knowledge barrier to connection isn't as high Aug 06 18:14:42 webOS problems are too massive for any group of people to solve. It needs a massive investment Aug 06 18:15:09 I don't install irc client on my work PC Aug 06 18:15:41 jacobo21: Look at Linux even before significant corporate involvement and say that. Aug 06 18:16:53 the community can accomplish a great deal if people just get involved and try to make a difference. learn to hack on this stuff or donate to someone who will, or learn about it and write documentation for others, there are tons of ways you can make a difference. or you could just say that the world's problems are too big for individuals and get upset that large companies are spending more millions of dollars Aug 06 18:17:02 look at linux market share in the desktop market Aug 06 18:17:53 jacobo21: ok you're officially just here being negative Aug 06 18:17:57 who cares about the market share in the desktop market? Look at it in the server market Aug 06 18:18:00 thus the "troll" thing Aug 06 18:18:07 I don't see the point. If no one is makign hardware what are people going to do ? Buy a galaxy S and hack on webOS on it Aug 06 18:18:14 jacobo21: then leave Aug 06 18:18:29 please :) Aug 06 18:19:03 jacobo21: so yes, the future of open webos in the most immediate sense is going to be on open hardware like galaxy nexus, whatever we can run recent kernels on with free software compatibile drivers for. Aug 06 18:19:04 without hardware it will just be another meego or another mobile OS that no one has heard of Aug 06 18:19:17 this is why I wish channels on FreeNode would organize their structure more. I prefer to have ops, halfops, and voice Aug 06 18:19:46 jacobo21: so, basically just like Linux was before you heard of it Aug 06 18:19:50 and said ops and halfops could kick trolls Aug 06 18:20:12 GodGinrai: I have the power to kick him if I want to, I thought we were discussing this. no? Aug 06 18:20:43 oh nm wrong channel, hardly anyone is ops in #webos Aug 06 18:20:45 oh, I didn't realize you had that power Aug 06 18:21:07 ah, ok Aug 06 18:21:14 Palm set it up without too mcuh active supervision Aug 06 18:22:41 a lot of the other channels, the ops just don't sit with +o all the time and have to request it from chanserv Aug 06 18:23:20 jacobo21: so again, webos will become just like one of those operating systems no one has heard of, just like Linux was before it got popular enough for you to hear of it Aug 06 18:23:32 ah, I prefer autoop, it lets people who are new to a channel realize who can help them, etc. Aug 06 18:24:20 jacobo21: it's ridiculous for one to suggest that the community can't accomplish great things without immense amounts of financial expenditure and frankly not supported by the history of free software Aug 06 18:26:35 and clearly HP is spending a bunch of money on improving webos still, and still hiring, so the idea that they're letting it founder just because of past missteps isn't true either. I *do* think at this point they need our help (that of the community) which is why it's being open sourced Aug 06 18:27:28 but you know, if it's easier for Derek / webosnations and an army of trolls to whine instead of help, that's your prerogative Aug 06 18:28:28 destinal: So I take it you don't like webOSnation? Aug 06 18:28:48 kesne: I like it and liked it but this negative sensationalism lately is pretty ridiculous Aug 06 18:29:00 I do agree with that. Aug 06 18:29:16 I miss Dieter :( Aug 06 18:29:24 kesne: me too Aug 06 18:30:56 And Keith. Aug 06 18:31:58 without hardware it does not matter what the community accomplishes. That's my point. How many developers are even eager to work on webOS? HP or Palm screwed them over and over. Aug 06 18:32:35 jacobo21: I'm a webOS Developer, have been since the original Pre. I'm eager to work on webOS. Aug 06 18:33:31 jacobo21: yeah, and? old news...pretty sure most of the people here are working hard to get the most out of this thing they love Aug 06 18:33:57 webOS CE for one, is getting a decent amount of attention/time from people Aug 06 18:34:17 didn't say they aren't any just that numbers are small. many developers moved on. I had a Palm Pre and some of the apps I actually paid for no longer exist because the developer pulled out Aug 06 18:37:02 jacobo21: and we'll do the best we can do, and hopefully more developers will come back. the more we get involved to improve things the greater the likelihood that there'll be hardware designed and intended to run webos but again, very few desktops ship with linux on them but still a lot of people load it Aug 06 18:38:00 * bigbluehat did just this weekend :) Aug 06 18:38:09 so yeah, things are pretty quiet and slow right now but the hope is that turns around and that the community has a significant part to play in making that happen. Aug 06 18:40:23 does webos still have no hardware acceleration? I think using webkit to render the UI was a bad decision. It is too slow Aug 06 18:40:54 jacobo21: webos 3.x (like touchpad) does have hardware acceleration Aug 06 18:41:45 jacobo21: what's your point here? Aug 06 18:41:46 webkit hasn't rendered the UI since 2 came out Aug 06 18:41:46 hasn't it been in since 2.x? I thought that was one of the reasons it was too difficult to get 2.x onto old devices? but that's a while ago so no quoting me Aug 06 18:42:20 does nto feel like anything is accelerated Aug 06 18:43:17 jacobo21: just sell your touchpad, then you can be free of the angst and indecision Aug 06 18:43:22 I am typing and can see the delay in response then it often misses or stutters not recognizing any touch Aug 06 18:43:40 then an app will take 15 seconds just to start Aug 06 18:46:03 * RagingMind bites tongue Aug 06 18:46:05 the touch pad does not bother me since I stopped using it. I will keep it for the nostalgia. I bought two one for me the other for the wife. I already sold mine. Aug 06 18:59:27 jacobo21: on the other hand, it's a capable device, and webos community edition is likely to improve, and someone may get open webos working on it too. if you don't like any of those options, just run android on it :P Aug 06 19:00:25 I have used Android on it. Although better than using webOS I did not like it Aug 06 19:00:31 jacobo21: I agree, sometimes webos is slow, there's a lot of performance tuning that can be done still Aug 06 19:01:03 I consider these opportunities for improvement rather than reasons to complain Aug 06 19:01:36 I used a Palm Pre for over a year and they were complaints. 3 years later and it is still slow Aug 06 19:01:55 Palm promised speed improvements. I never saw it Aug 06 19:02:01 jacobo21: ok so, please stop Aug 06 19:02:08 this isn't accomplishing anything Aug 06 19:02:45 so if Palm and there team of over 1000 employees couldn't get the performance how could a handful of developers working in their spare time for free get it done? Aug 06 19:03:19 jacobo21: stranger things have happened :) Aug 06 19:04:18 a handful of developers at webos-internals dramatically improved the performance of webos just with some patches to turn off blatant performance hogs like verbose logging and so on, so I think it's pretty clear performance isn't something HP / Palm spent a lot of time on Aug 06 19:04:51 jacobo21, palm didn't have that many people working on the software. there are still 300+ people working on it at HP. there WOULD HAVE been improvements to the touchpad had things worked out differently Aug 06 19:05:52 but instead they've had to spend hundreds of thousands of man hours scrubbing the code to make it open-sourceable. hours that would have been spent addressing many of the complaints you've had Aug 06 19:06:51 while you could not be expected to know all this before hand, if you got the touchpad during the firesale you SHOULD have known future updates were questionable Aug 06 19:07:13 I was reading an article from former palm employees and they criticized using webkit and there was another OS in development before webOS. WebOS was put together in a few months - a rushed job Aug 06 19:07:40 basically they said webkit is the reason it is so slow compared to iOS Aug 06 19:09:37 you're picking and choosing the information you want to pay attention to in a way that's making the whole thing as negative as you possibly can. either you're upset about spending money on a discontinued product and attempting a catharsis or you're trolling for shits and giggles Aug 06 19:14:34 lol Aug 06 19:17:18 ... I may have built up some angst from having a string of debbie-downers flow though the room over the past few months. all with the exact same complaints Aug 06 19:17:49 jacobo21, sorry if I came off harsh Aug 06 19:19:25 There are many reasons why webOS is "slow", but a lot of the appearance (especially when you're looking at Pre2, Pre3, TouchPad) is simply because the animations aren't smooth all the way around. Whenever you do anything in iOS, it's almost always animating something while you wait for it to process. Even if you don't have to wait for it to process, it still runs animations. Aug 06 19:20:08 Android being a Linux based system as well, suffers from similar issues, although it also suffers from having a UI that absolutely sucks. Aug 06 19:21:50 One big difference that I do see in webOS vs anything else, is that the virtual keyboard in webOS often lags, and I really don't know -what- to attribute that to. It's built into the system manager, so perhaps giving the system manager a much higher priority might help, but then the system manager itself may be the problem. Aug 06 19:31:10 EricBlade: one thing is that iOS is native code vs the layers of abstractions we have to process on webos which aren't all necessarily optimized as tightly as they could be, but even android just undertook a massive project to improve visible performance Aug 06 19:36:44 For the most part, for what all it does, I am usually quite impressed with the speed of webOS, until i have a half dozen apps all doing things. :) Aug 06 19:38:26 of course having all your apps, or the majority of them anyway, running inside a single webkit instance, can certainly lead to problems esp with devs like myself who are learning this stuff as we go Aug 06 19:38:59 isn't the keyboard and luna all in qt and running natively and accelerated? Aug 06 19:39:27 there's not a whole lot of documentation out there with so called "best practices" to get the best response times from things Aug 06 19:39:48 setting up a simple node service is beyond many of our devs. Aug 06 19:40:26 not because those devs are stupid, or can't learn it, but because there's no "why you need to know this" and "here's what you need to know" Aug 06 19:41:46 so the node service, which is our basic ticket (currently) to multi-processing, is a black magic art Aug 06 19:43:26 I'd love to use https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10906? with a pandaboard and a GPS module to build a webos car-puter Aug 06 19:48:26 RagingMind: I keep thinking about putting it on my raspberrypi (now running Arch) Aug 06 19:49:03 EricBlade1: how fixable is the node service information "wall" problem (as you see it)? Aug 06 19:50:47 sorry i got bumped. stupid comcast. Aug 06 19:52:02 I don't think the ras-pi has the processor or gpu oomph to drive a webos 3ish GUI, but it probably could run navit alright? (considering it does run on my pre+ and pixi+) Aug 06 19:52:30 yeah, I've no idea...it runs Quake 3 OK :) Aug 06 19:52:33 and Qt5 Aug 06 19:52:54 given that it boots off an SD card, it wouldn't be hard to try them all :) Aug 06 19:53:00 or even "collect" them all :) Aug 06 19:53:31 the pi is a 700MHz arm6vk Aug 06 19:53:48 my magnemite runs webOS <.< Aug 06 19:54:03 ? Aug 06 19:55:20 oh come on, I responded to you pokemon joke w/ one of my own. Don't go "?" Aug 06 19:55:29 *your Aug 06 19:58:12 bigbluehat: i really think the documentation would benefit from having a whole section dedicated to the best ways to construct an app, and that should include details on WHY you would want to use node, as well as improved documentation on how. Not just saying "You can write a node.js service. Here's a bunch of files you'll have to setup to make it work." Aug 06 19:59:04 EricBlade1: gotcha. Is there a "community controlled" docs repo yet? Aug 06 19:59:18 GodGinrai: honestly had no idea what you were talking about ;) Aug 06 19:59:25 looked it up on the interwebs Aug 06 20:00:26 wow Aug 06 20:00:38 and I'm sure there's a lot more to be learned than what I know about this sort of stuff. Aug 06 20:01:13 node.is is only on the touchpad version, tho', right? Aug 06 20:01:18 another good section would be about why and how to use the activitymanager, also bringing it up to date Aug 06 20:01:22 *node.js Aug 06 20:01:30 GodGinrai: webos 2 has node 0.2, webos 3.0.4+ has node 0.4 Aug 06 20:02:02 ah, ok Aug 06 20:02:59 I'll be sure to keep these tidbits in mind when I try my hand at development on my Pre3 Aug 06 20:04:56 ok who sent "hey babe" to the SynerGV support line lol Aug 06 20:05:17 lol Aug 06 20:06:20 hmm. apparently the app scanner has an issue with services making public bus service calls. fortunately, they should be able to push it through Aug 06 20:36:30 EricBlade1: you should have just obfuscated around the scanner, lol :P Aug 06 21:01:23 destinal: well, i had several issues that i wasn't even aware of that the scanner only informed HP people of, and eventually after a week of not being able to force it through, they finally emailed me a list of things Aug 06 21:01:55 so, yeah, that aspect needs some help Aug 06 21:18:21 oh goodness, I just bought my textbooks for the school year Aug 06 21:18:24 :'( **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 07 02:59:58 2012