**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 21 03:00:02 2018 Jan 21 16:27:57 Morning. 30 mins to go... https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-5.html#post3452416 Jan 21 16:28:56 Back in a bit... Jan 21 16:48:21 Does anyone have admin control of this channel? Jan 21 16:58:30 If there's anyone new here who wants to post a mini-bio (webOS related), we are about to start Jan 21 16:58:59 Hay everyone Jan 21 17:00:11 OK. Welcome everyone to the 7th meeting. Jan 21 17:00:44 I'll try to rattle through it fast again... unless we have good progress to report! ;-) Jan 21 17:00:47 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees. Jan 21 17:01:08 Feel free to just shout out if you are here like Misj Jan 21 17:01:11 morning Jan 21 17:01:38 I'm here (like Misj') :D Jan 21 17:01:59 :-) Jan 21 17:02:42 OK, I see a few more logged in but... Oh, Hi JVLebbink! Jan 21 17:02:56 Morning.... Jan 21 17:03:23 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group Jan 21 17:03:39 I assume we are skipping this as usual unless anyone has thoughts... Jan 21 17:04:05 Well...I have a kinda general idea. but it's not yet fixed in my mind Jan 21 17:04:11 Go on... Jan 21 17:05:00 Well, it has to do with the app museum (later more on that). But in my mind everything we're doing to collect data, patch stuff, and keep things alive is part of the webOS Museum (so the App Museum is part of the webOS Museum) Jan 21 17:05:36 basically in my mind I'm calling most of what we do that: we're building a webOS Museum Jan 21 17:06:56 in short: I'm describing what I also mentioned in the about box for the app museum: http://www.banneret.nl/webos/_temp/app-museum_2017-12-11_184659.png Jan 21 17:07:22 I do not disagree, but beyond preservation, we are also maintaining, fixing and to some extent (where possible) improving Legacy. The Qt 5 port is a case in point Jan 21 17:07:23 it's a very broad definition ('one of our main goals is to provide webOS-users with functionality of the device as originally intented') Jan 21 17:07:31 but most of what we do fits within that concept Jan 21 17:08:05 Also at the risk of forgetting, there were aims posted earlier on the thread: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up.html#post3450964 Jan 21 17:09:20 anyway...those were my thoughts on this subject :D Jan 21 17:09:58 Do you think we should look to combine these aims? Or do you want the museum to be adopted as a Group project? Or...? Jan 21 17:11:05 Well, in my mind this - what we are doing - is already the webOS museum. Sure, it's more than archiving, but it's trying to keep a hold of the original functionality (original possibly in a broad sense). Jan 21 17:11:21 So it's not really something different from what we're already doing...just symantics Jan 21 17:12:05 so it's sort of giving it a name. Jan 21 17:12:56 the reason why I started to think like this, was because I wanted to keep the app-archiving, app-data (app-museum), and webos-documentation separate but also together Jan 21 17:13:36 and I was inspired by the internet-archive (waybackmachine), as well as a radio-program on internet-archeology Jan 21 17:16:19 ...next item? Jan 21 17:16:36 I understand where you are coming from. I like the word archive better than museum. I'm not sure... I think we are maybe going off-topic as this only about aims tangentally I think. Shall we deal with this under documentation? Or just return to it next month? Jan 21 17:16:38 no ideas on this topic Jan 21 17:17:10 Next month would be ok. Jan 21 17:17:51 I think I'll bring it up further down the agenda... I doubt there's much else going on this month! ;-) Jan 21 17:17:53 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts. Jan 21 17:17:57 Skip it? Jan 21 17:18:07 skip Jan 21 17:18:16 4. Progress reports Jan 21 17:18:26 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn) Jan 21 17:18:37 http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331764-tp-qupzilla.html Jan 21 17:18:56 added support for context menus on long tap; added close button to window frame, so bookmarks/history can be used now Jan 21 17:19:11 nice Jan 21 17:19:37 That's great! I hope your PhD studoes are going well! Jan 21 17:19:50 yes, thanks Jan 21 17:20:07 thumbs up! Jan 21 17:20:45 Do you think there is more to do? Or are you happy with it now? Jan 21 17:21:09 ^that was not released yet, i would like to make qt libs to be shareable Jan 21 17:21:41 Is that so the Qt can be used by other apps? Jan 21 17:21:50 yes Jan 21 17:22:25 also rotation planned, in long term hw acceleration/new touch UI Jan 21 17:22:30 This all sounds really good nizovn! Just make sure that your studies are a priority! ;-) Jan 21 17:22:31 I assume each app still needs to be packaged with the libs...or would it be libs that are shared by multiple apps? Jan 21 17:24:09 yes, i would like to ship qt so that others apps could use it as dependency, without need to distribute it in ipk Jan 21 17:24:18 I guess once the stand alone Qt is installed, then any app could use it? But it would need to be specified as a requirement like the dbus package...? Jan 21 17:24:30 that would be nice Jan 21 17:24:45 That would be an amazing step in functionality Jan 21 17:24:54 Good news!!! Jan 21 17:24:59 nizovn: If it's not too much off-topic, how do you plan to deal with the jailer? As it limits access to each app's own app folder Jan 21 17:25:44 one idea is to place libs in /media/internal Jan 21 17:25:45 I've thought that this could be done with a derived jailer config, but that might be too much hassle Jan 21 17:26:16 couldn't it be placed in the 'frameworks' folder? - These are already available to all apps (that's also where Enyo is) Jan 21 17:27:10 Misj: yes, good idea Jan 21 17:27:25 then apps could be opened in usb mode Jan 21 17:27:54 i don't know much about jailer Jan 21 17:28:22 any specific reason you let Qupzilla run as root? Jan 21 17:28:39 dbus dependency Jan 21 17:28:54 oh okay Jan 21 17:29:30 the pivotce feed doesn't support dependencies currently afaik, I think that would be needed for apps to depend on a qt package Jan 21 17:29:55 yes, it's needed.. Jan 21 17:30:17 If nothing else, the requirement could be added to the description (like in the forum thread) Jan 21 17:30:27 I could ask if this is possible. Jan 21 17:30:46 dependency support, I mean! Jan 21 17:31:38 I wonder if the Qt port and Qupzilla could be hosted by webOS Internals / Ports? I assume they have dependency support? Jan 21 17:31:45 i know nothing about feed, just thought dependencies work in preware :) Jan 21 17:31:58 Preemptive: would be useful, I suppose Jan 21 17:32:09 if nizovn wants to release the Qt package on the pivtoce field Jan 21 17:32:11 Maybe, I don't know who these things work Jan 21 17:32:14 *pivotce Jan 21 17:32:27 *How! Jan 21 17:33:20 nizovn: Are you going to post the update to your forum thread soon or does it still need some work? Jan 21 17:34:07 one would probably just need to add a plaintext "Depends" field to the developer.pivotce.com backend and use this when generating the Packages file Jan 21 17:34:23 i'm not sure: to post update now, or to wait splitting out qt libs.. Jan 21 17:34:44 second would take some unknown time, but cleaner.. Jan 21 17:35:45 nizovn: It's your project. I'd love to get an update soon, but it's easier to complete the work fully, there's no need to rush. Jan 21 17:36:24 ok Jan 21 17:36:34 I think you've already delivered something useful to the community. So it's probably better not to rush the next steps. Jan 21 17:36:39 ...unless you think that it will interfere with your studies. It might be better to post now and stop worrying about completion untill your examinations are done. Jan 21 17:37:25 @Preemtive: it's also good to have something non-PhD related to do ;) Jan 21 17:37:43 well, i hope there won't be any exams.. Jan 21 17:37:44 (to keep your mind off the PhD stuff) Jan 21 17:38:18 nizovn: Well, whatever is required (I don't have a PhD!) ;-) Jan 21 17:39:02 Great work nizovn! Jan 21 17:39:07 Shall we move on? Jan 21 17:39:40 i hope it was the last exam in my life... :) Jan 21 17:39:57 Preemptive: yes, probably Jan 21 17:40:11 ha ha .... wishful thinking :) Jan 21 17:40:31 Life is fulll of exams! It's just that the later ones aren't so obvious! ;-) Jan 21 17:40:45 ok... Jan 21 17:40:47 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap) Jan 21 17:41:04 Really haven't had time to work on porting it to the Phones Jan 21 17:41:16 So...no news. Jan 21 17:41:29 I wonder if we can give this a kick by finding new filters or services that offer better formatted web pages? Jan 21 17:42:02 Well, it's mostly that it's an entirely different browser-app, and I've been busy working with JVLebbink on the App Museum Jan 21 17:42:15 Maybe there is a list somewhere of these kind of services. Is it Google AMP? Jan 21 17:42:19 So the browser-patch had quite low priority for me Jan 21 17:42:38 (as in: no priority at all...especially since I don't own a phone myself) Jan 21 17:42:40 Yes, it's just that it seems to have a lot of potential... Jan 21 17:42:45 who was on holidays....so didn´t do a thing :p (Just lend a Pre 3) Jan 21 17:42:59 Well, we can move on... Jan 21 17:43:24 it's still in the back of my mind. But so are some other (partly webOS related) projects Jan 21 17:43:49 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html#post3451411 Jan 21 17:44:36 I don't bbito listed. there was a post on the main thread yesterday, so i don't think anything is happening here... Jan 21 17:44:46 ping Herrie Jan 21 17:44:55 (did i do that right?) Jan 21 17:45:44 Herrie: Ping Jan 21 17:46:30 I guess he's away... so no report today. Jan 21 17:46:44 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia) Jan 21 17:47:08 https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/330935-bing-google-maps-location-unavailable.html Jan 21 17:47:37 Mazzinia was taking the lead on this (I hope, because I didn't). Jan 21 17:48:19 OK. Moving on... Jan 21 17:48:49 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/326893-webosinternals-patch-portal-down.html#post3450982 Jan 21 17:49:48 Neither Herrie or Novaldex appear to be here. I think code review was the last report I heard, so... Jan 21 17:50:01 ...moving on! Jan 21 17:50:25 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive) Jan 21 17:51:27 I've got nothing. I'll get on with trying to pester the admin of webOS Nation about this. One thing I need is detailed information about what exactly the issue is Jan 21 17:52:35 I find that presenting a potential solution is useful as the other person can then say, "Aha!" and fix it without haveing to spend time trying to find out what is wrong. Jan 21 17:53:52 Does their portal even work anymore? I know you can view the apps, but I am not sure if it works beyond that? (I seem to recall the "log in to get the app link/download" not working the last time I tried it.) Jan 21 17:53:55 thing is it's probably not useful if there's no one left to review submissions Jan 21 17:54:04 I didn't know how to fix the webOS Internals wiki links, but by asking the support channel I could point Novadex in the right direction Jan 21 17:55:31 dkirker: I don't know. That's why I think we need a clear description of the problem. It's clearly a technical issue (or lack of update) BEFORE it's an admin / review issue Jan 21 17:56:09 yeah :/ Jan 21 17:56:17 If the review thing becomes an issue we would then need to look at acquiring and rehosting WN apps Jan 21 17:57:25 I think a dedicated thread to report the state of the app gallery for users and developers is the next step. Then we can take that to the site admins and see what they are willing to do for us. Jan 21 17:58:21 1. Describe the problem clearly. 2. Request assistance. 3. Proceed according to the response (if any!) Jan 21 17:58:29 Next item? Jan 21 17:59:09 sure Jan 21 17:59:11 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). Jan 21 17:59:25 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-tips-info-resources/331800-documentation-management-thread-webos-user-group.html Jan 21 18:00:19 Collection in all areas seems to be going well. There have been offers of other sources also. Jan 21 18:00:42 We could talk about the museum here also..? Jan 21 18:01:03 AlanMorford: Hello! Jan 21 18:01:21 Well, I've said what I wanted to say, so...better to keep that for another time :) Jan 21 18:01:56 (regarding the webOS museum, not the app museum which we will talk about in 4.9) Jan 21 18:02:50 When it comes to adding to documentation or 'rewriting' old stuff that we don't own, does any one have any experience or opinion of this? https://docusaurus.io/ Jan 21 18:03:36 I thik there was also some kind of auto documentation project called doxygen, but it's for coding... Jan 21 18:04:04 hello Jan 21 18:04:39 The question really is if we begin to produce new documentation, what is the best format and tool(s) for this? Jan 21 18:05:16 to be honest, I have no idea. I'm not personally a fan of wiki-pages (well, I like using them, but not updating them) Jan 21 18:05:56 Misj: Yes, but if the docs are there, it's much easier to use the product (or code for it!) Jan 21 18:06:20 AlanMorfordpc: Hi! Jan 21 18:06:40 It honestly depends on the doc source. But really, wiki pages seem to be the most flexible for general stuff. Jan 21 18:06:41 I'll move on... Jan 21 18:06:43 that's true...I also don't agree with it. Jan 21 18:07:15 Did this party just start or has it been going an hour? Jan 21 18:07:35 You're fashionably late :) Jan 21 18:07:38 * dkirker joined late Jan 21 18:07:51 my znc bouncer also seems to be slow....... Jan 21 18:08:00 AlanMorfordpc: 1 hour.. Jan 21 18:08:18 4.7.1. Documentation policy. Jan 21 18:09:48 I got nothing here. It's mainly to decide what to archive, where to put it etc. It's the details of the plan. Borring, but useful. If no one has a comment I'll start the discussion on the main documentation thread later. Jan 21 18:10:03 *boring ! Jan 21 18:10:57 I would continue...I don't expect anyone to have anything to say about documentatin in general this month (I certainly don't) Jan 21 18:11:03 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj) http://www.banneret.nl/webos/documentation/ Jan 21 18:11:06 (documentation) Jan 21 18:11:38 well, at some point I need to reformat some of the stuff there, to make it better accessable. Jan 21 18:12:22 but that's something for the (far) future Jan 21 18:12:49 You already seem to have a lot of stuff! Impressive. Do you think that it will need commentary? It mostly seesm to be code at a quick glance Jan 21 18:13:28 Wait, have you got the whole HP webOS developer centre there? Jan 21 18:13:42 Most of it is pretty straight forward information. It's just not easy to search, or scroll through. Hence the need for accessability enhancements. Jan 21 18:13:46 http://www.banneret.nl/webos/documentation/all/dev-guide/enyo.html Jan 21 18:13:52 I should have everything not related to the forums Jan 21 18:14:05 (I never backed up the forums, as that would be too much of a hassle) Jan 21 18:14:07 Wow! Good stuff! Jan 21 18:14:19 (but I make no promisises that this is everything ;) ) Jan 21 18:14:37 (also, everything related to de open-source information is not online as that was too big) Jan 21 18:14:48 Yes, I don't know how much useful stuff is there, but if there is stuff it will probably need to be summarised... :-( Jan 21 18:16:02 What would be a good first step? A linked topic list would be simple...ish? Jan 21 18:16:31 I have to think about it. Jan 21 18:16:53 OK. Well, it's looking really good so far! Jan 21 18:17:17 Since it's mostly a direct offline-rip, so I haven't looked at everything I actually have, and simply put it up there Jan 21 18:17:21 4.7.3. On device Help System. Jan 21 18:19:20 I think this is a bit of a place holder. I know the original files were at palm.si. I don't think they are still accessible and are designed to be 'served' according to the device requesting them. You can view the HTML and media, but they are not in 'pages'. They are components. Jan 21 18:20:18 The challenge is either to recreate the software on a server or to use the material to make a more static help system - like a website. Jan 21 18:21:03 what will be the main use of the help system for the user? Jan 21 18:21:14 (personally I never used it...not even when it was still live) Jan 21 18:21:27 From what I remember from a ticket I got assigned at palm, the system looked at the user agent. Shouldn't be too hard, if we have the original docs. Jan 21 18:21:55 Misj: Yes, it might not be worth the effort other than for reference. Jan 21 18:23:08 dkirker: I assume you are correct - the server would id the device, then serve relevant data to the app. Maybe the app constructed the request or maybe the server did? Jan 21 18:23:13 Did I miss the Museum update? Jan 21 18:23:14 @dkirker I assume there's also some query invovled Jan 21 18:23:30 @alan: no Jan 21 18:23:36 ok cool Jan 21 18:23:48 @Alan (it'll be discussed in 4.9) Jan 21 18:24:06 ...waits patiently... Jan 21 18:24:52 I'll try to get hold of... I think it's Sumy on the forum who has Palm.si Jan 21 18:25:02 Next! Jan 21 18:25:13 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive) Jan 21 18:25:23 I've done nothing. Sorry. Jan 21 18:26:04 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1) ... Also Misj now then. Jan 21 18:26:05 ok... next :) Jan 21 18:26:06 one would have to investigate the help app Jan 21 18:26:26 dkirker: OK. Noted. Jan 21 18:26:35 I've done quite a lot on this one Jan 21 18:26:59 as I was on the tropical Island of Cuba Jan 21 18:27:14 I originally relied on some code form the Catalog, but it was too slow and I couldn't fix that...so I rewrote the whole thing Jan 21 18:27:30 That being said: I want to get it into a 'closed' beta this week. Jan 21 18:27:59 there are still some bugs, and the hosts file still has to be edited manually (as I haven't had time to look into writing a postinst script). Jan 21 18:28:18 But anyone interested: shoot me an email: webOS at banneret.nl Jan 21 18:28:40 The app is optimized for the Touchpad, but we've made sure it's useable on the Pre3 Jan 21 18:29:18 Do you want to make a forum thread ^& beta test? Jan 21 18:29:29 It's possible to link it to Alan's FTP (though that had to be done manually in the preferences, as we don't provide that by default) Jan 21 18:29:35 Oh, right 'closed' beta Jan 21 18:29:41 no, I actually want to keep it withing this small group for now. Jan 21 18:29:59 And then, in like two weeks, release it on the forums Jan 21 18:30:15 (depending on the close-beta-feedback) Jan 21 18:30:37 With regards to Alan's FTP...JVLebbink? Jan 21 18:30:40 Misj, I'm def interested. I can go ahead and send you an email. Jan 21 18:30:54 I'll test it also. Jan 21 18:31:14 Alan doesn't own the ftp Jan 21 18:31:32 I know, but I call it your FTP so people know what I'm talking about :D Jan 21 18:31:41 Alan helped Herrie and a handful of others source apps before the shutdown Jan 21 18:31:44 I will probably not send out a link tonight, but it will be in the first half of this week. Jan 21 18:32:31 I think the ftp is somewhere in the Phantom zone... it's like the cloud, but in space! Jan 21 18:32:43 ;-) Jan 21 18:32:43 We haven´t contacted/sent files to Alan that we have that aren´t on the ftp yet Jan 21 18:32:45 well even if you never make a postinst script to add the hosts exception I'll just do up a really thorough guide on pivotCE Jan 21 18:32:53 A file formated wasn´t agreed on either Jan 21 18:32:59 yes, you should do that Jan 21 18:33:04 Alan can edit the ftp Jan 21 18:33:13 Alan likes talking in the third person Jan 21 18:33:22 Alan certainly does :D Jan 21 18:33:42 actually we did a blog on editing your hosts file a while back Jan 21 18:34:16 AlanMorfordpc: What's the relevance of the HOSTS file? Jan 21 18:34:20 Itś a bit problematic when the adblocker-patch is installed Jan 21 18:34:25 it was for wingows and mac I think Jan 21 18:34:28 windows Jan 21 18:34:34 yes, but I feel it would be better to have a script for it...especially with big hosts files (like when you have the ad-block patches installed) Jan 21 18:34:50 ah ha yes Jan 21 18:35:00 The hosts file edit is needed to be able to see the images Jan 21 18:35:04 why is a hosts exemption necesarry? Jan 21 18:35:08 Misk: OK Jan 21 18:35:10 ah Jan 21 18:35:23 as they are on Palm's CDN we need to give it the correct IP Jan 21 18:35:50 Are the apps still out there on CDN? Jan 21 18:35:52 or someone could host all the images (but I'm not gonna ;) ) Jan 21 18:36:25 I haven't been able to find them. But the apps would have to be stored more securely and a simple http(s) request should never give you the stuff back. Jan 21 18:36:53 Misj: I understand. Jan 21 18:36:56 So maybe they are, and maybe someone at HP can access them...but I very much doubt it Jan 21 18:37:41 ...though it would be... spooky if we could find away to restore all the old services with some cunning hacks! ;-) Jan 21 18:38:16 Next? Jan 21 18:38:58 we currently have 3528 apps backed up (some multiple times for different languages...not counting for multiple version-numbers), and 6157 missing Jan 21 18:39:38 I imagine a lot of the missing are paid? Jan 21 18:39:57 Oh, I thought almost all of them were there. Jan 21 18:40:11 yes, but we also miss many free apps Jan 21 18:40:34 so maybe we need a definitive list made up? Jan 21 18:40:40 because when we backed up the apps it would get everything associated with the current user/device. So if you never installed a free app, it would also not get downloaded. Jan 21 18:40:42 Or do you have one? Jan 21 18:40:55 list of missing apps? Jan 21 18:41:01 ALL apps Jan 21 18:41:15 Herrie got 4000 of those apps with different device versions and OS versions on his custom Impostah app Jan 21 18:41:17 (with reason ) Jan 21 18:41:33 *within Jan 21 18:41:43 Well, when you download the app museum you will see a list of all apps, you can even select a category 'missing apps' Jan 21 18:41:49 so you basically have a list. Jan 21 18:42:17 we'll start a scavenger hunt if you can get me a list of the missing apps Jan 21 18:42:18 Misj: OK. That's useful as everyone can compare to their own backups Jan 21 18:42:25 I've also set the appID to com.palm.app-museum, so in the future I could use some private services (should I want to) Jan 21 18:43:58 I might also want to extend the app with things like links to patches or custom descriptions...but that's something for the future Jan 21 18:44:21 (also downloading metadata.json files from the app to the app-folder would be nice). Jan 21 18:44:31 So lots of ideas, little time to do it. :) Jan 21 18:44:55 Plenty of time... there's no deadline! Jan 21 18:45:18 We were thinking of adding some scavenger tools in the App Museum to read the apps a user has on device and show a list we do not have backupped Jan 21 18:45:27 yes there is, have the beta product completed by friday or you're paycheck will be suspended Jan 21 18:45:43 ;) Jan 21 18:45:49 that nonexistent paycheck you get Jan 21 18:46:38 On that note, shall we move on? Jan 21 18:46:57 Misj: ? Jan 21 18:47:14 I'm awaiting all your emails :D Jan 21 18:47:19 Reminder: Send your closed beta requests to: webOS at banneret.nl Jan 21 18:47:33 5. Discussion of other items Jan 21 18:48:01 Oh, wait...there's one more thing on 4.9 Jan 21 18:48:08 that email is sent! Jan 21 18:48:33 Go on... Jan 21 18:48:53 The Limits regarding the FTP (if you link it) obviously remain. Alan had posted about that in the FTP-thread. So they still apply: don't hog the download, to all download at the same time. Jan 21 18:49:07 (and currently it relies on preware to download stuff...so have that installed ;) ) Jan 21 18:49:44 OK. I suggest including those warnings when you reply to our emails. Jan 21 18:49:53 5.1. webOS time service issue https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331734-network-time-not-keeping-clocks-accurate.html Jan 21 18:50:25 @Herrie. You had a beta for this (that I for some reasong didn't join, don't know why). Any results? Jan 21 18:50:26 Now on this I think I read somewhere that a simple HOSTS file entry could reroute to an active timeserver Jan 21 18:51:10 But I'm not sure where now... not a perfect fix, but worth a test in leiu of a patch Jan 21 18:51:31 *lieu Jan 21 18:51:39 (I think) Jan 21 18:52:18 I've seen nothing more about the test. I think Herrie wanted to test himself before a release Jan 21 18:53:23 I think I suggested the hosts file fix, but it was more a theory, as I haven't actually tested it. Jan 21 18:54:02 dkirker: So change this: palm://com.palm.systemservice/time to something else? Would it work? Jan 21 18:54:24 no Jan 21 18:54:48 one of the services makes reference to time.palm.com I believe for NTP updating Jan 21 18:54:59 I think it is discussed in that thread? Jan 21 18:55:29 dkirker: Oh, so time.palm.com to http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/ ? Jan 21 18:55:49 To one of the hosts in there, yeah Jan 21 18:56:18 Would you be able to post a HOSTS entry to the thread for testing? Jan 21 18:56:34 I could try, but I'm no expert. Jan 21 18:56:54 That said, there also appears to be an ntp daemon in the optware part of preware that might be a better solution Jan 21 18:57:03 I might be able to have a look this week Jan 21 18:57:54 I'm just thinking that the HOSTS fix is simple and easy to test. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution. More of a proof of concept prior to a patch Jan 21 18:58:12 (and a sticking plaster until...) Jan 21 18:58:46 @dkirker: I would discuss it with Herrie, just to make sure we're not doing the same thing twice. Jan 21 18:58:52 dkirker: Anyway, it'll be great if you have anything. Any progress is good! Jan 21 19:00:10 moving on... Jan 21 19:00:33 5.2. Device back up options. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-development/331801-options-automated-device-backup-webos-user-group.html#post3451423 Jan 21 19:01:13 I think here we are mainly looking at possible 'off the shelf' back up programs that could be applied to webOS Jan 21 19:03:48 Also: https://www.qtdtools.de/page.php?tool=QtdSync&page=QtdSync&lang=en Jan 21 19:04:54 I guess we need to evaluate how much preparation needs to be done by the user, then which backup option works the best. Jan 21 19:05:25 https://www.urbackup.org/ Jan 21 19:05:44 Any comments or suggestions or shall I move on? Jan 21 19:06:20 no comments from me right now Jan 21 19:06:20 I have no idea how difficult a backup tool would be (that could be used after doctoring to restore my stuff). But it would be welcome. Jan 21 19:07:09 Restoration is likely an additional question (at least doing it easily!) Jan 21 19:07:52 I think I stll have the old DTA app (data transfer assistant). It was mainly for PalmOS users to move to webOS easily Jan 21 19:08:48 I have to be going (it's 8 o'clock and I still need to eat). I will read the log later. Jan 21 19:08:54 As long as the extracted data is in a particular format, it might work, but I think that's mainly the PIM stuff (calendar, contacts etc) Jan 21 19:09:21 Misj: Ok thanks for everything Misj! Catch you later! Jan 21 19:09:36 Next topic? Jan 21 19:10:09 5.3. Default app options (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) Jan 21 19:11:51 I think the situation here is that any app can become a default app if it specifies the MIME types it can handle - it just a matter of coding this in. The system will then offer the option. So no patching of webOS required, but a tutorial of how to code the app to 'register' itself will be useful. Jan 21 19:12:29 Perhaps nizovn would like to have Qupzilla as an option for default browser for example? ;-) Jan 21 19:12:53 I'm not sure there's much to add to this topic and will move on... Jan 21 19:13:08 5.4. Krack hack Jan 21 19:13:29 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-discussion-lounge/331848-krack-hack-fix-webos.html Jan 21 19:13:55 i don't know if being "default" browser change something.. Jan 21 19:14:17 We know the situation. It's fixable. It just needs some one to do it... Jan 21 19:15:02 nizovn: I think it means that someone clicking a link would cause Quzilla to launch - not the stock browser. Jan 21 19:15:16 not sure if that's easily possible with PDK-only-apps Jan 21 19:15:33 (re Qupzilla) Jan 21 19:15:57 well, i tried that some time ago, it works Jan 21 19:16:54 i think clicking links in browser will open them in webOS browser, not "default", but maybe i'm wrong Jan 21 19:17:05 pc-world: I see. Also, there aren't many new apps! It would just be nice to not only have options, but to be able to make them the default where possible. I don't think this is a high prioroty thing. It would just be nice to have. Jan 21 19:18:26 just type integration may have some sense too Jan 21 19:20:38 nizovn: I think the webOS browser launches BECAUSE it is default. System>Device Info>Default applications,,, yes just type would also be good! Jan 21 19:21:33 nizovn: So are you saying that Qupzilla can register to handle .HTML etc.? Jan 21 19:21:48 yes Jan 21 19:22:59 Is this new? I don't see an option in default application on my TP... Jan 21 19:23:00 i have right now qupzilla as default browser (but it doesn't launch), but links in stock browser open in itself Jan 21 19:23:27 Preemptive: yes, it was some testing, not fully working yet Jan 21 19:24:03 Ah OK. Well, it's work in progress! More good news! Jan 21 19:24:53 Out of interest, where does webOS pass the link to Qupzilla? In argv? Jan 21 19:25:44 pc-world: it passes some json argument to qupzilla Jan 21 19:26:05 so it's not working now because qupzilla expects just url Jan 21 19:26:12 ok Jan 21 19:26:21 i think simple sh script can do this work Jan 21 19:27:21 i think default browser is launched only in about pages of some apps Jan 21 19:28:06 you could patch the stock browser's launch function to launch Qupzilla instead Jan 21 19:28:57 yes, maybe Jan 21 19:29:10 some apps just launch the stock browser instead of using the right methods :/ Jan 21 19:29:31 I wrote a wiki page on this some years back Jan 21 19:29:50 should be linked in that forum thread Jan 21 19:30:50 pc-world: If options are possible, i think that's better than 'hard-patching' alternate behaviour. As dkirker says, if it's done properly, then the sytem should be able to handle it. Jan 21 19:31:02 *system Jan 21 19:31:16 dkirker: yes, thanks, i probably was following just that guide Jan 21 19:32:54 Just to tidy up, 5.4. Krack Hack: Fixable, but not fixed. On a side note, I think the ARM 7 chips in webOS devices are NOT vulnerable to Meltdown or Spectre hardware hacks. Jan 21 19:33:24 5.5. App stores discussion. Jan 21 19:33:55 I think there is nothing to add here and will move on unless anyone jumps in... Jan 21 19:34:00 Preemptive: they are vulnerable iirc Jan 21 19:34:05 (well, webOS kernels are vulnerable to dirtycow, so you can exploit root anyway) Jan 21 19:35:34 nizovn: Oh? I thought only revent ARM chips were and ours are too old, but you likely know better. Do you have details? Jan 21 19:35:39 processors are armv7, but cortexa8 Jan 21 19:35:42 *recent Jan 21 19:36:13 if you care about security or fear exploits, you shouldn't use webOS these days Jan 21 19:36:13 seems they are pretty recent for these hacks Jan 21 19:36:29 Oh... and that's bad.. OK. I will update whatever thread that is on. Jan 21 19:36:38 pc-world: Yup Jan 21 19:37:16 fwiw I tried this root exploit https://github.com/dirtycow/dirtycow.github.io/blob/master/pokemon.c and it works on webOS 2.2.4 Jan 21 19:37:17 pc-world: But can we cling to security through obscurity? ;-) Jan 21 19:37:57 pc-world: Is dirty cow fixable? (at least in theory) Jan 21 19:38:17 Preemptive: yes, you'd need to recompile kernel with a patch Jan 21 19:38:35 but imo it doesn't really matter as only apps you install can exploit it Jan 21 19:39:14 Maybe I'll post that up somewhere. There's always a chance that someone will make a patch... Jan 21 19:39:48 A general vulnerability thread is probably called for at this point... Jan 21 19:40:00 OK.... moving on.... Jan 21 19:40:24 6. Any other business. Jan 21 19:41:21 I have something which is: Should we have a semi-formal testing team and make a test protocol so that any developments from the group can get some basic testing from the team? Jan 21 19:42:55 Like those who are willing to test Herrie's time server code. If we had a list of tests to try, it would standardise the process better than anecdotal reports on forums.. Jan 21 19:42:57 ?? Jan 21 19:43:56 I understand test would differ depending on the exact software... Jan 21 19:45:26 OK. I'm moving on... Jan 21 19:45:39 7. Date of next meeting. Jan 21 19:46:16 18th February? Same time? Jan 21 19:47:14 ok Jan 21 19:47:18 opk Jan 21 19:47:21 ok Jan 21 19:49:00 OK. I'll take that as yes from everyone. Thanks everyone. there was a lot more discussed to day that I thought! Great work. See you on the forums and here next month! Jan 21 19:49:30 Good bye everybody! Jan 21 19:49:35 bye Jan 21 19:49:38 bye Jan 21 19:50:12 bye Jan 21 19:50:49 nizovn: Can window decorations be disabled in your Qt plugin? Didn't have the time to test your latest commits yet Jan 21 19:51:25 hm, no.. Jan 21 19:53:43 ok, i'll introduce some environment variable to disable them then Jan 21 19:54:17