**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 24 03:00:00 2018
Jun 24 16:12:31 <Preemptive> Meeting starts in 1 hour...
Jun 24 16:58:29 <Preemptive> https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-6.html#post3453634
Jun 24 16:58:45 <Preemptive> A last minute update to the forum...!
Jun 24 17:02:57 <nizovn> morning
Jun 24 17:03:15 <Preemptive> Morning!
Jun 24 17:03:41 <Preemptive> I'm hoping eveyone has been as useless as me overe the last month so I don't look so bad...
Jun 24 17:03:41 <bbito> Morning!
Jun 24 17:03:54 <bbito> Hear Hear
Jun 24 17:03:56 <Preemptive> Already we are 3!
Jun 24 17:04:38 <Preemptive> I'll just post the agenda link again. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-6.html#post3453634
Jun 24 17:04:44 <Preemptive> Anyone else here?
Jun 24 17:05:08 <Preemptive> 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
Jun 24 17:06:09 <Preemptive> bughi1980: Are you present? I saw some comments in the logs after the last meeting...
Jun 24 17:06:33 <Preemptive> dkirker: Are you about?
Jun 24 17:07:18 <Preemptive> Right moving on! I guess we can skip items 2&3 as usual! ;-)
Jun 24 17:07:28 <Preemptive> 4. Progress reports.
Jun 24 17:07:45 <Preemptive> 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn) http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331764-tp-qupzilla.html
Jun 24 17:08:02 <Preemptive> nizovn: Any news on this?
Jun 24 17:08:08 <nizovn> there is some progress regarding qt sdk: it seems i found way to add required mounts to jailer configurations.
Jun 24 17:08:14 <nizovn> but this needs to be properly packaged later.
Jun 24 17:09:08 <Preemptive> OK, that's item 4.10 I think, but I assume you are now focusing on that and not Qupzilla / Falkon.
Jun 24 17:09:25 <nizovn> oops, right
Jun 24 17:09:34 <Preemptive> We can switch to 4.10 if you want...
Jun 24 17:09:46 <Preemptive> 4.10. webOS Qt5 SDK.
Jun 24 17:10:17 <Preemptive> It sounds like a good start at least
Jun 24 17:11:30 <nizovn> from user perspective there is nothing much to report unfortunately
Jun 24 17:12:19 <Preemptive> Do you think you have enough to request others to contribute or is it too early?
Jun 24 17:12:48 <Preemptive> There was discussion of starting a forum thread last month.
Jun 24 17:13:47 <nizovn> i think if anyone wanted to contribute he would do that already..
Jun 24 17:14:29 <bbito> nizown: out of curiousity is there a git repo?
Jun 24 17:14:32 <nizovn> i don't like to post something until it's not finished
Jun 24 17:14:48 <Preemptive> nizovn: Understood.
Jun 24 17:14:58 <nizovn> bbito: for qt sdk not yet.
Jun 24 17:16:24 <nizovn> other repos are here: https://gitlab.com/users/nizovn/projects
Jun 24 17:17:35 <Preemptive> If there's no public repository, I guess that makes contribution difficult. So well done nizovn for again consistently getting work done each month!
Jun 24 17:17:38 <nizovn> i didn't find proper way to extend jailer, so for now i think to replace it with own script
Jun 24 17:18:20 <nizovn> Preemptive: thanks
Jun 24 17:18:29 <Preemptive> nizovn: Did you move to Gitlab 2 weeks ago? Or have you been very busy! ;-)
Jun 24 17:18:46 <nizovn> yup, moved :)
Jun 24 17:19:27 <Preemptive> OK. Well we will see how you are doing next month. Jumping back to 4.2...
Jun 24 17:19:38 <Preemptive> 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/331780-patch-browser-touchpad-smart-url-cleaner.html
Jun 24 17:20:29 <Preemptive> Nobody is here for this. I think we should actually drop it from the agenda. It's a useful patch, but no one's done much with it so far.
Jun 24 17:20:40 <Preemptive> 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html#post3451411
Jun 24 17:20:45 <bbito> 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) - No work done since last report
Jun 24 17:20:53 <Preemptive> bbito: You're up!
Jun 24 17:21:08 <Preemptive> bbito: OK.
Jun 24 17:21:28 <nizovn> i recall some help was needed with Makefiles
Jun 24 17:21:33 <Preemptive> I'm going to skip to 4.7
Jun 24 17:21:59 <Preemptive> nizovn: Oh, Yes, help on this was requested
Jun 24 17:22:26 <bbito> Yeah, Herrie was on this, but I think he is working so much on LuneOS
Jun 24 17:22:40 <Preemptive> Shall we try bumping the thread a bit?
Jun 24 17:23:03 <nizovn> i had a look on it, and it seems the best way to install ipks is to install them after doctoring though preware
Jun 24 17:23:30 <bbito> How about patches?
Jun 24 17:24:09 <bbito> Herrie seems to think it is trivial to have the meta-doctor apply patches e.g.: OpenSSl during build
Jun 24 17:24:58 <nizovn> i think if installation of ipks is required, than it could install patches as well
Jun 24 17:25:16 <bbito> If that is true it is a big win (and safer for patches that can be affected by running services)
Jun 24 17:26:41 <bbito> I can carve some time to help, but I don't have the makefile chops to get started on this aspect
Jun 24 17:27:53 <nizovn> i just not sure all existing patches will work with fresh rootfs
Jun 24 17:29:37 <nizovn> one thing why installation of patches is better, is you could see then which patches are actually installed
Jun 24 17:31:21 <Preemptive> So is this an approach to create a super patch file for post installation? I think a meta-doctor is ultimately better, but I can see it would be tricky for the user, though a patch probably needs the user to bypass activation first.
Jun 24 17:31:22 <bbito> Yeah, seems like a Preware package list would also need to be generated if meta-doctor was installing these things
Jun 24 17:32:45 <Preemptive> choorp: Hi!
Jun 24 17:33:13 <choorp> heya
Jun 24 17:33:39 <Preemptive> choorp: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-6.html#post3453634
Jun 24 17:34:08 <Preemptive> choorp: log so far: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos.txt
Jun 24 17:35:06 <choorp> oh, neat. I just turned on my laptop and I stumbled into a webOS meeting. lol
Jun 24 17:35:36 <bbito> Preemptive: trickiest (user unfriendliest) part of meta-doctor is that you need a linux box
Jun 24 17:35:46 <Preemptive> choorp: We are lucky!
Jun 24 17:36:53 <Preemptive> bbito: Oh, I did not know that. Is windows or MAC a serious block or is it just that all the scripts or whatever are Linux commands?
Jun 24 17:37:54 <Preemptive> I mean , these days maybe it could be done with a 'live' install Linux DVD or USB image, but it's still a bit technical for the average user.
Jun 24 17:38:40 <Preemptive> Perhaps we have to face the reality that legacy webOS has gone beyond fixing for the average user.
Jun 24 17:39:47 <bbito> Preemptive: it may work on Mac, not sure
Jun 24 17:40:56 <Preemptive> There was that surprise announcement from MS about a Linux interface to windows... can't remember the details now...
Jun 24 17:41:14 <bbito> http://webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:MetaDoctor#Step_1:_Setting_up_Meta-Doctor
Jun 24 17:41:44 <bbito> It seems possible on mac, but requires setting up MacPorts, etc.
Jun 24 17:41:56 <Preemptive> bbito: This? https://www.howtogeek.com/249966/how-to-install-and-use-the-linux-bash-shell-on-windows-10/
Jun 24 17:42:21 <Preemptive> windows subsystem for Linux..
Jun 24 17:43:32 <bbito> I doubt that having BASH on Windows is enough - I have that with git BASH
Jun 24 17:44:05 <Preemptive> I guess my opinion is if *something* can be gotten up and running, it can be expanded to include more items and possibly user-friendliness can be improved.
Jun 24 17:45:07 <bbito> Preemptive: Agree
Jun 24 17:45:10 <Preemptive> Do you think a proof of concept can be achieved?
Jun 24 17:45:37 <Preemptive> Either super-patch with one item or basic meta-doctor with a single alteration?
Jun 24 17:47:53 <bbito> My expectation is: You throw all the ipks you want installed into a folder specified in the meta-doctor README and it installs them into the generated Doctor and makes a saved package list so preware knows what was installed (and can uninstal)
Jun 24 17:48:52 <Preemptive> And your blocker for this is makefile generation?
Jun 24 17:49:56 <bbito> The makefile *is* the meta-doctor so it would need to be modified to provide this behavior
Jun 24 17:50:23 <nizovn> bbito: i think it's hard to achieve because ipks can contain pre/post install scripts
Jun 24 17:51:00 <bbito> nizovn: err, yes I was worried that could pose a problem
Jun 24 17:51:03 <nizovn> it could be done with something like offline installation feature of ipkg, but it's very complex imho
Jun 24 17:52:11 <nizovn> btw it seems there is some mechanism of installing ipks in webos doctor already: $CARRIER$.tar
Jun 24 17:52:32 <bbito> nizovn: is it possible that most pre/post scripts are for stopping and restarting services that wouldn't be running anyway
Jun 24 17:52:36 <nizovn> but it seems it required specially modified ipks
Jun 24 17:53:24 <Preemptive> bbito: OK, so correct me if wrong, but the process is the java app installs to the device over USB and the doctor amounts to a manifest / makefile. you presumably need a script to itemise the IPKs in the folder and create the manifest along with existing parts of the doctor. Post instal to overwrite? or don't install the redundant parts in the first place?
Jun 24 17:54:27 <Preemptive> nizovn: Oh right, that's carrier modifications, right?
Jun 24 17:54:35 <nizovn> yes
Jun 24 17:54:45 <Preemptive> webOS User Group as your new carrier... ;-)
Jun 24 17:55:02 <bbito> Preemptive: meta-doctor can mean 2 things: the meta-doctor makefile that creates modified webOS Doctor jars - or - the modified webOS Doctor that the makefile creates
Jun 24 17:55:37 <nizovn> it seems carrier modifications are just archives of ipks
Jun 24 17:55:40 <Preemptive> bbito: OK!
Jun 24 17:56:30 <Preemptive> nizovn: I guess they were mostly netowrk connection setup, branding and maybe some apps from the carrier.
Jun 24 17:56:53 <nizovn> yes, maybe
Jun 24 17:58:07 <Preemptive> bbito: Has any of this been useful? What can we do to help you make progress?
Jun 24 17:59:53 <bbito> Ha, make me understand makefiles?!
Jun 24 18:00:23 <nizovn> :)
Jun 24 18:01:36 <Preemptive> bbito: OK. I will read the docs. I'll look at the old pivotCE articles. If nothing else, I'll start asking dumb questions on your thread and see if anyone contributes some enlightnement.
Jun 24 18:01:53 <bbito> So one of the most requested includes for this project is OpenSSL and it has pre and post scripts...
Jun 24 18:01:59 <bbito> https://github.com/tgaillar/OpenSSL-Updater/blob/master/control/prerm
Jun 24 18:02:26 <bbito> https://github.com/tgaillar/OpenSSL-Updater/blob/master/control/postinst
Jun 24 18:02:43 <nizovn> bbito: yes, i think all "root-accessed" ipks must have it
Jun 24 18:03:05 <bbito> So does that mean it likely wouldn't work in a non-live root-fs?
Jun 24 18:03:42 <bbito> That is a monkeywrench I wasn't really considering
Jun 24 18:03:56 <nizovn> ipkg can install ipks and then trigger scripts on first boot
Jun 24 18:04:16 <nizovn> but it's tricky imho, not sure it would work 100%
Jun 24 18:04:56 <Preemptive> bbito: Can the reboot instruction be removed? Then install the next item and so on... then reboot after all items are complete?
Jun 24 18:05:33 <Preemptive> nizovn: Oh, that be a cycle of a lot of reboots...
Jun 24 18:05:45 <Preemptive> + could
Jun 24 18:07:01 <nizovn> in general, postinst scripts even can know if they are running on first boot or regular install
Jun 24 18:07:25 <nizovn> but you will need to modify existing ipks to support that
Jun 24 18:08:50 <bbito> So the idea of being able to throw all your normal apps and patched into a folder and having them pre-installed into your custom Doctor seems to be fading
Jun 24 18:09:01 <bbito> *patches
Jun 24 18:09:23 <Preemptive> bbito: Except, I don't think that was the original plan
Jun 24 18:10:24 <Preemptive> If we specify what goes into the doctor (which should be what is a NEEDED update, not just what the user likes) then surely we can control the scripts that do the install?
Jun 24 18:11:22 <bbito> Yep, special version of e.g. OpenSSL could be crafted to work with meta-doctor
Jun 24 18:11:35 <Preemptive> Creating code to manage random IPK's in a folder is difficult, but I assume that if we know what they are the istal script can be 'hard-coded'..?
Jun 24 18:11:44 <Preemptive> *install
Jun 24 18:12:55 <Preemptive> bbito: I had concerns when people started posting wish-lists on the thread - they can always add their preferred stuff later via preware.
Jun 24 18:13:44 <Preemptive> OSSL and other fixes are no brainers because they fix broken stuff - it's not about modifying for personal preference.
Jun 24 18:14:20 <Preemptive> bbito: Service pack, not customisation.
Jun 24 18:15:58 <bbito> Preemptive: indeed, I was hoping to rid myself of the 2 day long gradual restoration post-doctor, but it may not be feasible
Jun 24 18:17:03 <bbito> ...longong for the days of palm profile and relatively painless visits to the doctor
Jun 24 18:18:33 <bbito> At any rate, probably time to move on
Jun 24 18:18:42 <Preemptive> bbito: It may be possible to make a custom doctor that reduces that time, but as the SV types say, we need a Minimal viable product (MVP). If you can do a service pack that installs one fix, that can be built on...
Jun 24 18:19:22 <Preemptive> bbito: I mean the first item could be to flip the activation switch...
Jun 24 18:20:01 <Preemptive> bbito: Then try something a bit more complex that needs a modified script.
Jun 24 18:20:33 <bbito> Preemptive: Although I don't use it, bypass-activation is already there
Jun 24 18:20:43 <Preemptive> ...but yes, we can follow up on the thread. We can move on.
Jun 24 18:21:44 <Preemptive> I allowed some time because I don't think there will be much new on the other topics.
Jun 24 18:22:01 <Preemptive> 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
Jun 24 18:22:11 <Preemptive> http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-tips-info-resources/331800-documentation-management-thread-webos-user-group.html
Jun 24 18:22:25 <Preemptive> 4.7.1. Documentation policy.
Jun 24 18:23:08 <Preemptive> One thing I'd like to raise here is comment on a recommendation for documentation protocol
Jun 24 18:24:31 <Preemptive> I remember there was something called doxygen, which i think autogenerated docs from code.
Jun 24 18:25:55 <Preemptive> If there are any suggestions for the best way to manage this or services that are useful, please add them.
Jun 24 18:26:46 <Preemptive> I'll see if I can get more interest in this thread
Jun 24 18:28:01 <Preemptive> I'm going to skip the rest of the progress reports as there's eith er no progress or the people aren't present.
Jun 24 18:28:17 <Preemptive> ...and we did 4.10 earlier
Jun 24 18:28:26 <Preemptive> 5. Discussion of other items.
Jun 24 18:29:57 <Preemptive> I'm going to lump these together. I have nothing to add to previous discussions, start typing if you do! 5.1. Device back up options, 5.2. webOS Vulnerabilities and Fixes, 5.3. App stores discussion.
Jun 24 18:30:59 <Preemptive> No?
Jun 24 18:31:13 <Preemptive> 5.4. LG's webOS Open Source Edition
Jun 24 18:31:22 <Preemptive> http://forum.webosose.org/
Jun 24 18:32:14 <Preemptive> The meeting took place. I haven't asked, so I don't really know what the outcome was.
Jun 24 18:33:13 <nizovn> ?
Jun 24 18:33:42 <Preemptive> nizovn: The Paris meeting between webOS Ports & LG
Jun 24 18:34:04 <nizovn> ah yes
Jun 24 18:35:02 <nizovn> i don't know details, but seems there are plans to port LuneOS on some new device
Jun 24 18:35:16 <Preemptive> I still have half an article on webOS OSE, so I should ask something. I was hoping to have more time. Maybe the next couple of months will be a bit more relaxed
Jun 24 18:35:46 <Preemptive> nivozn: Wait! i missed that! An LG phone?
Jun 24 18:35:48 <nizovn> Preemptive: would be interesting
Jun 24 18:36:25 <nizovn> no, xiomi tissot
Jun 24 18:36:40 <Preemptive> nizon: Ah OK.
Jun 24 18:36:59 <Preemptive> Right! Let's move on and wrap it up!
Jun 24 18:37:02 <Preemptive> 6. Any other business.
Jun 24 18:37:20 <Preemptive> I'm guessing none... ;-)
Jun 24 18:38:24 <Preemptive> ...
Jun 24 18:38:58 <Preemptive> 7. Date of next meeting.
Jun 24 18:39:44 <Preemptive> I'm busy on the 15th. It might mean I can't make it. The 22nd looks free for me.
Jun 24 18:40:20 <nizovn> ok for me
Jun 24 18:41:03 <Preemptive> bbito: ?
Jun 24 18:42:41 <Preemptive> Maybe he's gone?
Jun 24 18:43:03 <bbito> Back
Jun 24 18:43:22 <Preemptive> bbito: 22nd OK for you.
Jun 24 18:43:24 <bbito> July 22 looks ok
Jun 24 18:43:37 <Preemptive> Everyone still happy with the time?
Jun 24 18:44:09 <bbito> If anything, earlier would be better for me, but this is okay
Jun 24 18:44:18 <Preemptive> 1600 GMT?
Jun 24 18:44:37 <bbito> Good for me
Jun 24 18:44:56 <Preemptive> nizovn: 1600 OK? https://www.timeanddate.com/
Jun 24 18:45:35 <nizovn> it would be better if 1700 for 22
Jun 24 18:46:37 <nizovn> ah no, i've mistaken
Jun 24 18:47:04 <nizovn> ok for me
Jun 24 18:47:39 <Preemptive> OK 1600 GMT all round, 22nd July 2018.
Jun 24 18:49:19 <Preemptive> It's good to see a start has been made on the SDK and I think if we try we might be able to get something happening on the service pack - even if it's simple to start with. So it's been a useful meeting. Thanks for taking the time to be here. See you on the forums and next month!
Jun 24 18:49:54 <nizovn> thanks all. bye!
Jun 24 18:49:57 <Preemptive> choorp: See you next month? ;-)
Jun 24 18:50:07 <bbito> bye
Jun 24 18:50:09 <Preemptive> nizovn: Thanks to you! Bye!
Jun 24 18:50:49 <Preemptive> bbito: Thanks for talking me through your issues. See you on the forums. Bye!
Jun 24 18:57:41 <bbito> bye
Jun 24 20:38:24 <bughi1980> I sense I'm late
Jun 24 20:38:47 <bughi1980> isn't possible to send a reminder one day in advance, erm ?
Jun 24 20:49:02 <bughi1980> well... I would have an idea for the webosdoctors
Jun 24 20:49:11 <bughi1980> assuming it'll be read :P
Jun 24 20:49:36 <bughi1980> my personal idea is to use a different approach that doesn't involve the metadoctor
Jun 24 20:49:51 <bughi1980> aka turn to novainstaller
Jun 24 20:50:12 <bughi1980> then we just need the base vanilla Local Base Images
Jun 24 20:50:39 <bughi1980> and our extras as Local Customization Images , the payload is a simple xml file
Jun 24 21:13:29 <Preemptive> bughi1980: Hi. I'll make a note. Feel free to post your ideas on the thread. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html
Jun 24 21:26:49 <bughi1980> by the way... I'm mazzinia
Jun 24 21:27:19 <bughi1980> just I'm a bit of a slacker to keep changing the alias, and bughi is the one registered for classiccmp :P
Jun 24 21:29:32 <Preemptive> bughi1980: I thought we'd recruited someone new! ;-)
Jun 24 21:29:39 <bughi1980> nope :P
Jun 24 21:30:05 <bughi1980> I noticed that when I changed nick, it propagated also to the rest of freenode
Jun 24 21:30:10 <bughi1980> so I gave up :P
Jun 24 21:30:16 <Preemptive> WEll, the next one is the 22nd of July - put it in your webOS calendar app! :)
Jun 24 21:30:44 <Preemptive> See you on the forums!
Jun 24 21:30:47 <bughi1980> the calendars that I keep ignoring because every 4 hours there's a birthday reminder ? :P
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 25 03:00:03 2018