**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 21 02:59:57 2019 Jul 21 16:51:52 We'll be starting shortly. Agenda here: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-10.html#post3455792 Jul 21 17:00:37 morning Jul 21 17:01:14 hay everyone Jul 21 17:01:22 Hi Jul 21 17:04:08 Hi everyone! Here that agenda again: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-10.html#post3455792 Jul 21 17:04:35 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees. Jul 21 17:04:51 I guess that's 4 of us to start at least. Jul 21 17:05:02 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group. Jul 21 17:05:32 As usual, I'll assume there's nothing for the first three items unless someone stops me. Jul 21 17:05:42 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts. Jul 21 17:05:56 4. Progress reports. Jul 21 17:06:11 4.1. Priority Project: Upgrading TLS to at least 1.2. (dkirker) https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-discussion-lounge/332279-end-support-tls-1-0-1-1-problem.html Jul 21 17:06:37 I'm not seeing dkirker listed, so we will skip this... Jul 21 17:07:11 4.2. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html#post3451411 Jul 21 17:08:20 Herrie: I guess this will have to wait until the next LuneOS release is done? Jul 21 17:08:37 bbito: Oh Hi! ;-) Jul 21 17:09:07 Preemptive: Hey, long time! Jul 21 17:09:36 bbito: Any progress? Jul 21 17:10:07 No progress from me, and no time available until Sept. at the earliest... Jul 21 17:10:47 Preemptive: Yeah I relaly need to find time for that Jul 21 17:11:00 OK. I'll make a note. Jul 21 17:11:06 I did quite some legwork, but really need to sit down and work on it at some point Jul 21 17:11:15 Just too many things going on and too little people ;) Jul 21 17:11:26 And too little time :P Jul 21 17:11:40 Herrie: You mean TWO litle people? ;-) Jul 21 17:12:21 Also and a big new house with always things to do too ;) Jul 21 17:12:21 4.3. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia) https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/330935-bing-google-maps-location-unavailable.html Jul 21 17:12:30 Misj: What news? Jul 21 17:13:21 unfortunatelly it's gotten a bit off my radar. Jul 21 17:13:28 I should really start to look into it again. Jul 21 17:15:03 Misj: Do you have thoughts on the Qt browser work around? https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/330935-bing-google-maps-location-unavailable-3.html#post3455673 Jul 21 17:15:31 I wonder if the http proxy (to be discussed later) would help here? Jul 21 17:16:14 The rough idea is to spoof a location request as if it's coming from the googlemaps pweb page Jul 21 17:16:15 the QT browser probably uses the HTML API; which unfortunately we aren't able to use within apps. Jul 21 17:16:43 of course I'm just guessing here. Jul 21 17:16:59 Or at least, someone would have to write a Qt 5 app...? Jul 21 17:17:18 qt5 maps app? Jul 21 17:17:35 nizovn: Great minds think alike. ;-) Jul 21 17:17:40 there is one in qt5 examples Jul 21 17:18:10 but it won't help for other apps... Jul 21 17:18:13 nizovn: Interesting... Is there a link? Jul 21 17:18:46 There are some for other platforms Jul 21 17:18:52 Like SFOS in QML Jul 21 17:18:57 This? https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/location-maps-cpp.html Jul 21 17:18:58 I came across one earlier this week Jul 21 17:19:30 Something like this: https://openrepos.net/content/rinigus/pure-maps Jul 21 17:19:40 https://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.9/qtlocation-mapviewer-example.html Jul 21 17:19:58 patching individual apps is possible (I wrote a littel POC a while back before my computer crashed). What I basically did was call the normal Palm service in the app (to make sure we had GPS if the device had that). and if it failed I would do an AJAX call to Mozilla's location service. Jul 21 17:20:14 Source code is on GitHub. Might depend on SFOS Lipstick UI etc, but that's replacable usually Jul 21 17:20:39 yes, seems i thought about mapviewer app Jul 21 17:20:47 this worked, but the MLS is less accurate in areas where fewer mozilla users mapped the WIFI. Jul 21 17:21:20 Also you would need a services that gives you the WIFI connections surrounding you. Jul 21 17:21:44 In my case I used the service I wrote for the WIFI Network Sniffer. Jul 21 17:21:59 Given the stuff out there, it feels like there is a solution out there to be found or implemented. Jul 21 17:22:06 As said...it's possible, but it's not a trivial job per app...and I lost my POC-code in the crash. Jul 21 17:22:35 (actually it's quite trivial per app, once you had the first one implemented). Jul 21 17:22:54 Plus it required a MLS key (which I have...for this purpose). Jul 21 17:23:20 Well for Google you can do the same I guess Jul 21 17:23:32 There's also a key that you can use for Google's service Jul 21 17:23:35 It Jul 21 17:23:36 Misj: Right, yes it's having to patch each app that's the pain, but i suppose if we could publish sample code, then others might be inspired to patch apps as needed. Jul 21 17:23:47 It's all about the volume of calls that determines the pricing Jul 21 17:24:23 @Herrie. True, but for MLS the key was free. Jul 21 17:24:36 Google also, but depends on # of calls ;) Jul 21 17:24:37 Plus I trust Mozilla more than Google when it comes to support Jul 21 17:24:46 If exceeds certain amount it gets paid Jul 21 17:25:15 I meant MLS is free independent of the number of calls. (or at least it was) Jul 21 17:25:42 I think it's impractical to ask users to get their own dev keys and a solution that works (even if not as good as Google) is a start. Jul 21 17:25:58 "Mozilla is currently evaluating its MLS service and terms and is not currently distributing API keys" - https://location.services.mozilla.com/api Jul 21 17:26:28 Anyway an option would be to have both and choose/fallback Jul 21 17:26:35 That implemnetaiton is technically not that hard Jul 21 17:26:38 @bbito: that's ok, they gave me one for this a while back. Jul 21 17:26:42 I remember 72ka also had a HERE maps app. I don't recall the situation with their service API Jul 21 17:27:30 Preemptive: iirc Here broke years ago... Jul 21 17:31:12 I always get confused on this one: Whether Location info is supplied by the OS after a call to the API or whether it's a 'per app' fix. I suspect it might be both (unless the webOS service is GPS only). If the webOS serice can be fixed to point at MLS, then the per app fix would be to "Ask the OS for location data". Jul 21 17:32:01 on WebOS there is an OS (Palm) Service that provides the location to the app upon request Jul 21 17:32:15 I can't remember if there is a list of apps that would need fixing, but we could list them and offer sample code...? Jul 21 17:32:25 Well depends what the app implements. If it calls to com.palm.location or to something else Jul 21 17:32:37 Misj: Then I'd suggest the OS fix is the priority Jul 21 17:32:45 this service provides both GPS if available and 'low estimate' based on the WIFI available. Jul 21 17:32:47 Should be as easy to grep through a folder with all unpacked IPK's Jul 21 17:33:03 To find all references to location service Jul 21 17:33:28 those that don't use Palm's location service are probably not affected by this. Jul 21 17:33:33 Yes Jul 21 17:33:44 (nor would they be fixed by an OS-wide fix). Jul 21 17:34:12 Thing is...fixing the OS's location service might not be beyond my capabilities...but right now I have no idea where to look for it. Jul 21 17:34:12 Misj: Really? I'd assume old apps would have the same problem Jul 21 17:35:11 Misj: Maybe Herrie knows where the code can be found Jul 21 17:35:19 It should be a matter of replacing the location service Jul 21 17:35:31 Pre: it's possible if they used Google's service and the deprecated API. But it's unlikely because why would you use Google (payed) API to do something the OS would offer you for free. So it's more likely they would be using another API...that might still be working. Jul 21 17:36:59 I was under the impression that the Google service was free until recently (API change and charges for significant no. of call to the API) Jul 21 17:37:13 Correct Jul 21 17:37:19 Google's been doing this to location service, maps etc Jul 21 17:37:28 All became paid after a certain number of API calls Jul 21 17:37:50 as far as I remember they lowered the number...but I might be mistaken. Jul 21 17:38:00 What was MS's old game? "Embrace, extend, extinguish"? Jul 21 17:38:41 The Google walled garden is being built! ;-) Jul 21 17:39:53 well...just look at it...almost every time we lost functionality on webOS it's been because of a change by Google. Jul 21 17:39:57 ;) Jul 21 17:40:19 So as general strategy: 1. Find and swith the OS location service to MLS. 2. Publish the code as an example with a list of apps that might need a fix for others to do if they choose. Jul 21 17:40:50 *switch Jul 21 17:41:02 not entirely. 1 would fix all apps that use Palm's service. Jul 21 17:41:19 if we can't do 1 then we could write a per-app example on how to write a patch (2). Jul 21 17:42:55 Misj: if the OS call is the same, do we need to fix the apps that request location from the OS? Should they just work? Jul 21 17:43:47 if the Palm service points to a new location service then all apps should magically work again. Jul 21 17:44:08 (all apps using the default service). Jul 21 17:44:23 Misj: i.e. if APP_A calls the OS, fixing the OS solves the problem. If APP_B makes a direct call to Google the app itself will need fixing. Jul 21 17:44:38 indeed Jul 21 17:44:40 Preemptive: Yes Jul 21 17:45:01 OK! Jul 21 17:45:02 Just we'd need to make sure that the replacement location service returns the same format of result as the legacy ones Jul 21 17:45:14 Herrie: Yes. Jul 21 17:45:16 So the apps don't need further patching to deal with it Jul 21 17:45:39 MLS claimed they used the same format as GLS (Google). But we'd had to check. Jul 21 17:45:43 But that's formatting and cosmetics, not hard to fix Jul 21 17:46:36 i think the best way is to patch old service to take other name, and write new service that would call old one for gps data and qt5location for wifi data Jul 21 17:47:32 So what next? Shall I post a summary of that on the thread? If Herrie can point Misj at the location of the service, then Misj can decide if it can be done. Jul 21 17:49:17 nizovn: What is the reason or benefit over just fixing the GLS > MLS call in the original service? I'm sure there's a good reason... Jul 21 17:49:35 I'll take a look (once I know where to look). It's a bit outside of my comfort zone (of the web)...but hey...challenges :) Jul 21 17:50:11 Old service is binary blob, hard to patch Jul 21 17:50:19 yes ^ Jul 21 17:50:23 Without having the source code Jul 21 17:50:37 Ahh! Binary blob! Got it! ;-) Jul 21 17:50:38 There might be ways to decompile to source code, but hard to say Jul 21 17:51:09 Then yes, Nizovn's approach seems to be the best / easiest approach. Jul 21 17:52:05 Misj: I know webOS Nation is pretty dead, but if we post progress on the thread, there's a chance that someone will have suggestions or help to offer. Jul 21 17:52:26 Pre: I agree Jul 21 17:53:10 OK. I'll post a summary and request a listing of apps (if they all call the OS, we may not even have to fix those). Jul 21 17:53:59 That was a really useful discussion! I think we can move on...? Jul 21 17:55:22 4.4. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/326893-webosinternals-patch-portal-down.html#post3450982 Jul 21 17:55:50 even the better way would to avoid using qt5location, use something else, then qt5location could be based on ls2 service for gps data as well Jul 21 17:55:56 sorry for slow typing Jul 21 17:57:56 Well we can manage manually Jul 21 17:58:29 Feeds should work but I still need to test on new builder with Ubuntu 18.04 Jul 21 17:58:54 I had stuff working on 16.04 eventually Jul 21 17:59:09 And then novaldex updated to 18.04 Jul 21 17:59:24 nizovn: I'm afraid that's over my head. Someone else will have to comment. Jul 21 17:59:36 Let me kick off the feed now so I have something to check Jul 21 18:00:47 Results of feed build will be here: http://jenkins.nas-admin.org/job/webos-preware-feeds/43/console Jul 21 18:01:14 Herrie: OK. I made a post requesting patches. No one's replied, so I guess I will begin seeking out patches myself. We agreed a quarterly cadence for doing a manual update and the first deadline is the end of the month, so I'll put stuff from the service pack thread in there. Jul 21 18:01:36 https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/326893-webosinternals-patch-portal-down-2.html#post3455761 Jul 21 18:02:11 Just all these feeds got setup on Ubunto 10.04 or even earlier, so in upgrading to 12.04, 14.04, 16.04 etc some stuff broke Jul 21 18:02:26 I got everything back working on 16.04 and then stuff got upgraded to 18.04 Jul 21 18:02:30 So need to recheck there Jul 21 18:02:35 Herrie: Yup Jul 21 18:04:22 With luck, if I post some patches and they get added to the feed, peolpe on the forum will get the idea and add to the list for the next quarterly update. Jul 21 18:05:21 I'll post your jenkins link so people can see something happening. Jul 21 18:06:10 Does anyone have anything on documentation? If not, I'll skip the whole thing. Jul 21 18:07:15 oh hllo Jul 21 18:07:47 bughi1980: Hello! Jul 21 18:07:58 for once I ended eating earlier :P Jul 21 18:08:51 I'm skipping documentation.... Jul 21 18:09:09 4.6. App Store Specification. (Preemptive + others) https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/329621-making-another-app-store.html#post3453768 Jul 21 18:09:14 about documentation... Jul 21 18:09:22 I'm in the process of backing up https://kylemaas.github.io/luna-sysmgr/ Jul 21 18:09:48 it's a useful repository for people using the Palm services. Jul 21 18:09:56 Oh, OK Jul 21 18:09:58 4.5. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-tips-info-resources/331800-documentation-management-thread-webos-user-group.html Jul 21 18:11:12 Misj: Good work! Is it going on Banneret? Jul 21 18:11:27 when fully downloaded (including the search functionality) Jul 21 18:13:27 Misj: Search too? That's neat! Jul 21 18:13:59 yeah, it's just a cringe to download all files used in the search ;) Jul 21 18:15:22 Misj: Don't forget to post on the thread when you have done it - make sure people are aware of your work. Jul 21 18:16:17 Misj: At the last meeting Herrie said your documents were useful for the OSE porting effort. Jul 21 18:16:30 I did read that in the log :) Jul 21 18:16:39 (yes, I did actually read the log :D ) Jul 21 18:17:24 Misj: ;-) Jul 21 18:18:23 Ok. i though we would race through this with not much to say, but things are looking positive! Jul 21 18:20:53 Back to 4.6: We got to the point of thinking a shared app store for independent mobile OS efforts might be a better idea that everyone building their own. I'm not sure it's my place to follow this up with all the developers of those projects, but I suppose someon should, so I'll see who I can contact. Do you think Bshah of Halium can help with contacts? Jul 21 18:22:55 *THAN everyone building / someone Jul 21 18:24:17 Oh, and the problems of the WN app gallery will be rolled into this as I no assume we will end up just asking for the IPKs rather than WN fixing the gallery. Jul 21 18:24:27 *now Jul 21 18:25:03 I'll move on if there are no comments Jul 21 18:25:56 4.7 LuneOS testing protocol. https://forums.webosnation.com/luneos/332396-luneos-testing-protocol.html#post3455344 Jul 21 18:27:37 This is now a project. No one on the forum has made any suggestions for tests. Tofe of webOS ports has added to his original testing checklist, so I updated the post to include the new items. Hopefully this will help users test new releases thoroughly. Jul 21 18:29:28 Moving on... Jul 21 18:29:30 5. Discussion of other items. Jul 21 18:30:21 5.1. Device back up options. http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-development/331801-options-automated-device-backup-webos-user-group.html#post3451423 Jul 21 18:30:33 I don't think there's anything new here. Jul 21 18:31:05 5.2. webOS Vulnerabilities and Fixes. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/331974-vulnerabilities-fixes-legacy-webos.html Jul 21 18:31:44 Likewise. I'm not aware of any new vulnerabilities or fixes for existing ones. Jul 21 18:32:17 5.2.1. Does the VPN app need an update? https://forums.webosnation.com/open-webos-general-discussion/332302-vpn-hp-webos.html#post3454594 Jul 21 18:33:09 Again, VPN may rely on the TLS fix (4.1). No progress reported on that. Jul 21 18:33:36 5.3. LG's webOS Open Source Edition http://forum.webosose.org/ Jul 21 18:34:02 nizovn: Any news on this? Jul 21 18:34:44 no, i don't know Jul 21 18:34:48 OK Jul 21 18:35:02 5.4. http rendering proxy https://forums.webosnation.com/general-news-discussion/332470-web-rendering-proxy.html Jul 21 18:38:10 why not use qtwebbrowser? :) Jul 21 18:38:46 So this allows the stock browser to access the web by delivering a GIF with an ISMAP https://github.com/tenox7/wrp Jul 21 18:40:30 nizovn: No real reason other than integration I suppose. If the proxy could be baked in somehow, then apps that called the browser (including just type) would get a more seamless result. Jul 21 18:41:33 nizovn: I expect interaction is limited, so Qt browser would give the full experience as a modern browser. Jul 21 18:41:58 remember...the GIF solution will have a server know all your browsing behaviour.. Jul 21 18:42:41 Misj: I've only done one test - using Herrie's server! ;-) Jul 21 18:43:14 It seems to be a bit of a toy, but it might have it's uses. Jul 21 18:43:58 nizovn: Is qtwebbrowser usable on non-neon devices? Pre2? Jul 21 18:44:06 no Jul 21 18:47:05 qt can be compiled without neon, but i fear to adjust jailer on devices i don't have Jul 21 18:47:06 bbito: That's a point. Most of us still standing have Pre3 / TPs, but I guess there are some on the Pre2. For privacy concerns, it's been suggested that this could run on an RPi locally. Jul 21 18:50:32 I'll wrap up if there are no more comments... Jul 21 18:51:55 6. Priority Project Selection. Jul 21 18:52:10 Does anyone want to change this from the TLS upgrade? Jul 21 18:53:11 I think that's still the prio1 Jul 21 18:53:19 7. Any other business. Jul 21 18:54:10 ... Jul 21 18:54:21 speaking of proxies, i started building squid for possible ssl workaround Jul 21 18:55:16 nizovn: Interesting. Do you want to discuss it now or I can add it to the agenda for the next meeting? Jul 21 18:55:59 well i've only build it yet, didn't try Jul 21 18:57:00 nizovn: OK. Next meeting then. Do you want it to be a discussion item or a full on project? Jul 21 18:58:10 i think it's more a project Jul 21 18:58:28 nizovn: OK. Jul 21 18:58:54 If there's no other business, we can look at the date for the next meeting. Jul 21 18:59:39 8. Date of next meeting. Jul 21 19:00:04 Sundays in August: 4th, 11th, 18th, 25th Jul 21 19:00:37 I'm unavailable 4 & 11 Jul 21 19:01:06 it doesn't really matter for me Jul 21 19:01:22 I'm thinking 18th... Jul 21 19:01:43 Seconded Jul 21 19:02:03 Any objections to the 18th? Jul 21 19:02:06 no preference Jul 21 19:03:21 Ok. 18/08/2019 1700GMT Jul 21 19:04:05 Bye Jul 21 19:04:16 Thanks everybody. There was a lot more in this meeting than I thought there would be. Very positive. Jul 21 19:04:33 bye! Jul 21 19:04:34 bbito: Bye. See you on the forum and next month Jul 21 19:04:39 bye Jul 21 19:05:09 nizovn: Bye. Looking forward to your squid project next month. Jul 21 19:05:33 :) Jul 21 19:05:36 Misj: Thanks! a lot of input from you today! Jul 21 19:06:18 Herrie: Bye. Thanks again for all your help. Jul 21 19:06:42 bughi1980: Thanks for making it today. Jul 21 19:14:36 Next agenda: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-users-online-meet-up-10.html#post3455887 Jul 21 19:23:18 yw... I'm sorry for the other times Jul 21 19:53:58 bughi1980: Yu Jul 21 19:54:18 bughi1980: You show up more than most! ;-) Jul 21 20:29:09 mah, not so sure **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 22 03:02:02 2019