**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 25 02:59:57 2011 Sep 25 03:45:29 http://ompldr.org/vYWlteg/wterm_2011-24-09_234048.png Sep 25 04:41:50 PuffTheMagic, when are you going to put it in alpha? Sep 25 04:43:37 how bleeding should alpha be? Sep 25 04:44:55 builds and doesn't exactly DIE. Sep 25 04:48:03 when you mean? Sep 25 04:48:17 when? Sep 25 04:48:28 im using something I cant really distribute publically Sep 25 04:48:32 not till next OTA Sep 25 04:48:35 okay Sep 25 04:48:39 so understood. Sep 25 04:56:36 dtzWill, thats xev right? Sep 25 04:57:14 is escape really just '\033' ? Sep 25 04:57:17 like the Escape key Sep 25 04:57:32 yup Sep 25 04:57:33 sweet Sep 25 04:57:35 that works Sep 25 04:57:37 vi is functional Sep 25 04:58:43 kewl. Sep 25 04:59:14 test emacs? Sep 25 04:59:15 :D Sep 25 04:59:31 i dont have emacs Sep 25 04:59:40 and i havent dont ctrl or alt yet Sep 25 04:59:43 aha Sep 25 04:59:50 np....jumping ahead ...sorry Sep 25 04:59:50 escape, arrows Sep 25 04:59:57 and now im doing the ins/del group of keys Sep 25 05:00:14 ja, vi will want ctrl+ working too. Sep 25 05:01:01 for what? Sep 25 05:01:11 never used ctrl in vi Sep 25 05:01:33 ctrl-f is page forward Sep 25 05:01:38 ctrl-b is page back Sep 25 05:01:52 ctrl-g is tell me where I am in the file. Sep 25 05:02:08 I use that a lot Sep 25 05:05:29 those are gonna be tricky Sep 25 05:05:32 the corded ones Sep 25 05:08:49 probably need to make my own keyboard entirely Sep 25 05:11:09 thats not fun Sep 25 05:11:42 I should look @ uinput and see if we can capture esc from the kybd before Luna swallows it. Sep 25 05:11:53 (via bluetooth) Sep 25 05:12:21 hmm what does Ins send? Sep 25 05:12:30 since I use the BT keyboard. most of the time. Sep 25 05:12:56 PuffTheMagic, this is native right? not X? Sep 25 05:13:11 [2~ Sep 25 05:13:19 pure js Sep 25 05:15:08 ka6sox: did you see the guy in #webos-internals that apparently convinced the system to emit an 'esc' keycode for esc? Sep 25 05:15:11 aka not have luna eat it? Sep 25 05:15:27 he kinda disappeared, but he gave enough that if needed we could probably reproduce with some effort. he said he was gonna doc it Sep 25 05:15:30 I saw him but I didn't understand what he did. Sep 25 05:15:45 and I too was looking for that doc. Sep 25 05:20:58 well..that didn't work. Sep 25 05:23:04 I messed up Tide...got it very confused. Sep 25 08:49:23 dtzWill, does it look good? Sep 25 08:54:08 ka6sox: well the only thing that's non-trivial is the qmap stuff Sep 25 08:54:36 (I have a feeling the x stuff wasn't as straightforward, particularly the building part, so wish he'd contacted me instead of forging on himself, but...) Sep 25 08:54:41 the cool part is this qmap Sep 25 08:54:50 that apparently does what we want, and gets Xsdl an esc SDL event Sep 25 08:55:10 forwarded, fwiw. Sep 25 08:55:18 gotta run :) Sep 25 08:55:30 whatcha got? Sep 25 08:56:07 rwhitby, will forward. Sep 25 08:56:37 sent Sep 25 09:53:40 ka6sox, yes sir Sep 25 09:57:01 hum.. im not having much luck running ubuntu chroot with version 11.04-9 and Xevutahv0.9.3/xserverv0.9.3 Sep 25 09:58:44 when i try to start it in xeutah i get nothing at all. xterm starts up just fine in multiple instances as well Sep 25 09:59:00 i uninstalled and installed the stable versions which work just fine Sep 25 10:01:18 need INPUT....pastebein logs showing what "failed" :D Sep 25 10:02:39 Jack87, these are from alpha the 11.04-9? Sep 25 10:02:53 alpha yes Sep 25 10:03:07 stable version works as it should Sep 25 10:04:13 pretty sure the culprit is the chroot itself. Sep 25 10:04:32 wait for a day, don't upgrade to alpha of the chroot Sep 25 10:09:21 hum... ok so dont update the chroot itself but update the rest? Sep 25 10:09:41 correct Sep 25 10:09:47 use the stock one Sep 25 10:09:52 ok updating rest now. Sep 25 10:10:04 so update both xterm and x-server, xecutah Sep 25 10:10:14 but NOT chroot Sep 25 10:10:24 then turn off alpha feeds and update chroto. Sep 25 10:10:26 chroot. Sep 25 10:11:47 i can get xterm to launch but not the chroot (chroot is not updated anymore Sep 25 10:12:32 running 11.04-6 of chroot and newest xterm/xserver/xeutah and those all work but chroot will not launch Sep 25 10:12:33 you have to uninstall the chroot and reinstall it fresh. Sep 25 10:12:49 ya i did that Sep 25 10:12:58 okay still same question...find log that says whats failing. Sep 25 10:14:17 ka6sox, running lumberjack... and making it follow logs all applications Sep 25 10:14:29 Good Plan(tm) Sep 25 10:14:39 "cannot read propert 'style' of undefined Sep 25 10:15:04 nm... let me try to figure out whats going on here Sep 25 10:32:13 oops sorry i ment to paste here Sep 25 10:35:41 ka6sox, still waiting :-/ nothing new appearing in the log Sep 25 10:37:01 ka6sox, doesnt llook like anything is happening after initiating the upstart.. Sep 25 10:37:12 hum let me see if i can manually run the script in xterm Sep 25 10:37:24 thats a good plan Sep 25 10:39:11 paste the upstart script from ~org.webos-internals.ubuntu-natty-chroot/upstart/* into a pastebin Sep 25 10:39:23 (thats the actual script its trying to run) Sep 25 10:39:41 also bin/chroot_wrapper Sep 25 10:39:55 and start_xterm.sh as well from bin/ Sep 25 10:40:36 i think when i ran the chroot_wrapper.sh it worked Sep 25 10:40:55 but had to do it manually... excutah didnt do anything Sep 25 10:40:59 no error either Sep 25 10:41:37 paste all 3 and I can tell you what I think might be happening. Sep 25 10:43:25 Jack87: reinstall. sometimes the upstart script is not registered for some reason Sep 25 10:43:45 (reinstall one at a time - it seems the problem occurs when multiple things are updated at once) Sep 25 10:43:48 rwhitby, to be honest.. i have gone through many reinstalls so far :( Sep 25 10:43:56 rwhitby, ah ok Sep 25 10:44:08 rwhitby, any particular order Sep 25 10:45:12 rwhitby, by the way. manually running the chroot_wrapper.sh script worked Sep 25 10:46:54 ka6sox, http://pastebin.com/KTPA3Zy7 <== chroot_wrapper Sep 25 10:48:20 ka6sox, start-xterm.sh==> http://pastebin.com/3qShtLgF Sep 25 10:50:08 ka6sox, upstart ==> http://pastebin.com/JdgUGBfW Sep 25 10:51:37 ka6sox, im installing each one by one as rwhitby suggested... starting with XServer Sep 25 10:51:47 kk Sep 25 10:52:29 but it looks like the upstart is not iniating chroot_wrapper (is it supposed to?) Sep 25 10:55:24 almost done reinstalling chroot Sep 25 10:56:40 but it doesnt really start xterm either when i try to start chroot from xecutah (lets see if we have anymore luck after this reinstall) Sep 25 10:57:30 rwhitby!!! It worked.. installed each one, one by one Sep 25 10:58:05 XServer > XTerm > Xecutah > UbuntuChroot (all from the testing feeds) Sep 25 10:58:13 ka6sox, ^ :) Sep 25 10:58:53 i that order Sep 25 11:01:23 wow hehe... multiple instances is way fun! Sep 25 11:28:51 rwhitby, ka6sox, thanks guys.. it was getting frustrating.. seems as its a bug. let me know if i can help in anyway of trying to remedy it. but i better hit the haye now.will chat later. night Sep 25 21:35:15 keeping things consistent across multiple files is a PITA... Sep 25 21:35:32 but hopefully I've finally gotten it right. Sep 25 22:32:55 Jack87, once I figure out how to use DWM to get fullscreen or reduced screen with scrollbars then adding rdesktop should be simple enough. Sep 25 22:33:14 Jack87, please put that on the XApps wikipage as a wish. Sep 25 22:33:19 ka6sox, ya... it it was really staright forward Sep 25 22:33:36 for those intrested here is a screenie Sep 25 22:33:45 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9259463/xserver_2011-25-09_161951.png Sep 25 22:33:47 either one is fine with me. Sep 25 22:57:19 Jack87, when you add those other 2 screenshots eventually will you please upload them to our wiki instead of your dropbox/box.net thing? Sep 25 22:57:32 ka6sox, yes sir Sep 25 22:57:50 this is getting closer to being beta. Sep 25 22:58:04 for simplicity sake i am doing dropbox so i can grab em and than i should be able to add them to the wiki itself Sep 25 22:58:17 till I get the last bits solved it's non-working. Sep 25 23:00:59 added the other two screen shots Sep 25 23:01:18 thanks Sep 25 23:01:40 all this is going a long way towards getting this from concept to reality. Sep 25 23:02:33 Jack87, thought a bit more about synergy client Sep 25 23:02:50 for native it would be tougher because of interfacing to Luna Sep 25 23:03:17 ka6sox, i was thinking add options within luna manager app Sep 25 23:03:33 but I need to see if we have mouse support (kernel) in UK or other experimental kernels. Sep 25 23:04:01 ah Sep 25 23:04:24 can we run client in xenviorment chroot to at least control the xapps? Sep 25 23:04:48 maybe as a first stage Sep 25 23:05:00 maybe. Sep 25 23:05:20 chroot wont' allow us to go back into Luna however. Sep 25 23:05:36 so its either Luna or X. Sep 25 23:05:47 better if we can make it work with Luna. Sep 25 23:05:58 ya if it works with luna it will work with x Sep 25 23:06:09 as it stands client works fine in x Sep 25 23:06:10 yup Sep 25 23:06:30 that has to do with xinput Sep 25 23:08:10 to make it work native you have to get inbetween the output of the TS driver and inject into Luna's TS events. Sep 25 23:08:20 not a simple task. Sep 25 23:08:55 or do something like keyboss does for keyboard events. Sep 25 23:10:47 which uses uinput to mangle events. Sep 25 23:14:28 maybe we can use keyboss Sep 25 23:14:59 I think that was designed for GPIO keyboard mangling Sep 25 23:15:15 not touchscreen events. Sep 25 23:15:36 however...I have learned a lot about how webOS does TS events. Sep 25 23:15:47 so like I said..its non-trivial. Sep 25 23:15:51 but probably doable. Sep 25 23:16:43 it would be really useful i think Sep 25 23:17:07 another way for us to take over the world. Sep 25 23:17:50 now I have to figure out what size the screenshots need to be for preware. Sep 25 23:18:54 okay...bbl Sep 25 23:21:55 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Xapps#Known_working_apps_Potential_for_being_XApps Sep 25 23:23:25 those need to be thumbnails with bigger behind them.... Sep 25 23:23:43 im not sure how to do that with wiki Sep 25 23:23:44 so will need to resize somehow. Sep 25 23:23:54 it accepts HTML commands. Sep 25 23:24:31 so instead of using wikilinks use html links Sep 25 23:24:40 and then you can do a resize of the image Sep 25 23:24:58 okie dokie Sep 25 23:25:26 I'm sure there are examples of that if you google for mediawiki show thumbnails Sep 25 23:26:06 if you want to view code for that then go to wikipedia, and search for "Lady Ada" Sep 25 23:26:19 then view the source for the picture of her there. Sep 25 23:26:40 bbl Sep 26 00:17:11 so how're xapps coming along? :) Sep 26 00:18:44 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Xapps Sep 26 00:18:54 well we know what apps work in x Sep 26 00:19:09 tom is still working on making the apps run in a card on their own Sep 26 01:36:58 do any apps *not* work in X? Sep 26 01:45:00 ka6sox-away: ok, let's look at this xapps stuff now Sep 26 01:45:14 IOMonster: back now Sep 26 02:01:15 dtzWill: Multi-card X stuff released to public now. New packages now back in alpha for next round of updates. Sep 26 02:08:49 \o/ Sep 26 02:08:52 yay release cycles Sep 26 02:10:42 synergy is so cool! but damn thing only types in caps on the TP for me Sep 26 02:11:15 multi session of chroot is pretty cool! Sep 26 02:18:06 Jack87: yeah! I saw same thing with synergy too, unfortunately Sep 26 02:18:18 else i would love the extra little monitor in my desktop setup, propped up on its touchstone... Sep 26 02:18:26 haven't looked hard into why that's the case Sep 26 02:18:54 my best suspect was either a mismatch in synergy versions, or something with the modifier xkb definitions. we might be marking them sticky and i think that confuses synergy Sep 26 02:23:22 rwhitby: howdy Sep 26 02:23:27 dtzWill, well the odd thing is if you toggle caps lock.. while its on keyboard wont work at all Sep 26 02:24:00 yeah, that was my experience too. no idea, tbh. Sep 26 02:24:08 IOMonster: so, what experience with node.js do you have? Sep 26 02:24:14 absolutely none Sep 26 02:24:25 i'm totally a newbie to webos in general Sep 26 02:24:33 but not html/java/c/linux Sep 26 02:24:37 dtzWill, i think there are similar bugs with synergy but not quit the same as it is in our chroot Sep 26 02:24:50 IOMonster: so for root services, we have two options: node.js and C Sep 26 02:25:08 okay Sep 26 02:25:19 so, node.js is like a javascript service system? Sep 26 02:25:20 node.js services run unpriv in jail normally, but we know how to get around that. Sep 26 02:25:44 node.js services are transient - only starting when called and then quickly stopping again Sep 26 02:26:01 as opposed to c services that are started when called by dbus? Sep 26 02:26:14 C services are always root, are not supported by Palm at all, and are always running (albeit sitting in select) Sep 26 02:26:32 we never got transient C services to work properly Sep 26 02:26:37 ah okay Sep 26 02:26:40 So Preware, for example, uses a C service. Sep 26 02:26:51 ModeSwitcher, for example, uses a node.js service. Sep 26 02:26:54 and by extension of that, preware's c service is always running? Sep 26 02:27:08 yes, sitting waiting for a ls2 connection Sep 26 02:27:17 ls2 is like dbus? Sep 26 02:27:21 so not actually running. Sep 26 02:27:30 ls2 is the replacement for dbus in webOS 2.x Sep 26 02:27:44 okay sweet, i think i'm up to speed now Sep 26 02:27:50 dtzWill, hum.. i think i need to try to get usbnet working with freetether on the TP (if it even works on TP) and see if i can do synergy via usb connection Sep 26 02:28:15 which type of service is most compatible/portable between devices? Sep 26 02:28:22 the strange thing is that rwhitby and i had synergy working in a previous build of the xserver Sep 26 02:28:26 i'm assuming C is since it's used by preware Sep 26 02:28:31 both of them work on all devices Sep 26 02:28:39 node.js was only added in 2.x Sep 26 02:28:42 i thought that included keyboard, although actually maybe i'm wrong. Sep 26 02:28:43 ah Sep 26 02:28:46 do you remember, rwhitby? Sep 26 02:28:47 dtzWill, i saw that... but i dont remember much keyboard input. Sep 26 02:29:00 iirc you made a sweet video for youtube :) Sep 26 02:29:03 dtzWill, i mean it works now but just only text is typed in all caps Sep 26 02:29:12 right, which is unacceptable for most use Sep 26 02:29:13 lol Sep 26 02:29:14 dtzWill: keyword worked on linux, not on mac. I believe it's a mac synergy server bug. Sep 26 02:29:26 s/keyword/keyboard/ Sep 26 02:29:29 rwhitby: hmm, kk thank you. Sep 26 02:29:40 dtzWill: cryptk|offline had it working fine for both mouse and keyboard Sep 26 02:29:42 rwhitby: so, what are the advantages/disadvantages to using C vs node.js ? Sep 26 02:29:46 ah intreasting... i should try it on linux server (i am on windows server right now) Sep 26 02:29:52 for an application like a sudo proxy Sep 26 02:29:54 Jack87: ^^^^ yeah last time i poked at it (it was definitely just poking) i seemed to come to conclusion it was some bug/mismatch in my synergy version Sep 26 02:30:05 but i can't really verify/validate that Sep 26 02:30:15 hum.. my client might be a mismatch Sep 26 02:30:21 i am using quick synergy client Sep 26 02:30:25 IOMonster: only C works on 1.4.5 Sep 26 02:30:29 (it has a nice little gui) Sep 26 02:30:48 are there any webos devices that can't be upgraded to 2.X ? Sep 26 02:31:06 there are many 1.4.5 devices out there. Sep 26 02:31:11 IOMonster: pixi? Sep 26 02:31:14 IOMonster, officially yes... but using meta doctor so far all can Sep 26 02:31:29 Jack87: not all, if you want to continue to use the app catalog Sep 26 02:31:32 ah, so then if we were to write a root proxy app, it should be in C Sep 26 02:31:43 IOMonster, officially device before pre2 (pre, pre+, pixi) are all 1.4.5 or bellow... Sep 26 02:31:55 that's a bummer for owners of those devices Sep 26 02:31:59 Jack87: EU Pre+ is officially 2.x Sep 26 02:32:12 rwhitby, really? i did not know that.. thats actually pretty cool! Sep 26 02:32:25 Jack87: yep, O2 released 2.x for Pre+ Sep 26 02:32:37 that's the reason why 2.x exists for any legacy devices Sep 26 02:32:42 rwhitby, so it was a carrier thing after all? how annoying Sep 26 02:33:04 Jack87: everything has always been about the US carriers. I don't know why people don't get that ... Sep 26 02:33:30 so i suppose i should start modifying the base c-service Sep 26 02:33:35 from the hello package Sep 26 02:33:38 i thought i remember a statment about how the legacy devices cant handle blah blah blah (which we all know is not fully true) Sep 26 02:33:54 is there a way to have a c-service interact with the GUI ? Sep 26 02:33:58 for example Sep 26 02:34:10 application X calls com.webosinternals.root Sep 26 02:34:12 Jack87: depends on your definition of "handle". all of them can run it, with varying degrees of customer satisfaction for varying customers. Sep 26 02:34:15 and asks to run "blah" Sep 26 02:34:26 a GUI notification generated by com.webosinternals.root pops up Sep 26 02:34:32 and asks if they want to allow/deny the request Sep 26 02:34:37 IOMonster: yeah, we know how to do that Sep 26 02:34:42 excellent Sep 26 02:34:42 securely too Sep 26 02:34:53 ipkgservice used to do it Sep 26 02:35:03 i think this app would be a great gateway towards people getting apps like samba mounting working Sep 26 02:35:07 easily and securely Sep 26 02:35:14 rwhitby, thanks for enlightening me Sep 26 02:36:16 IOMonster: you have to do an application launch, passing a crypto hash. then the gui puts up the question, and sends the answer with the crypto hash as another service call. Sep 26 02:36:32 the service then checks the hash (to know it is not being spoofed) and continues. Sep 26 02:36:50 haha yep, that'd work Sep 26 02:37:05 i think a proof-of-concept would be much simpler Sep 26 02:37:23 we used to do that for postinstall scripts in preware for unsigned packages Sep 26 02:37:33 to be honest, i'm not super worried about someone trying to own my touchpad Sep 26 02:37:42 so it's already been proven, implemented, used in real-life, and subsequently deprecated Sep 26 02:38:18 (later we got the ability to ensure that only Preware is calling ipkgservice, so handle rogue insertions that way) Sep 26 02:39:32 i'm trying to figure out what enyo kind the usb disk mode box is.. Sep 26 02:39:43 the notification that pops up in the upper right hand corner Sep 26 02:40:05 IOMonster: see /msg Sep 26 02:40:33 hm? it's not an end-user question Sep 26 02:40:53 i'm trying to figure out what enyo kind the dialogue box is so that i can make a gui mockup for the root proxy app Sep 26 02:41:14 IOMonster: no, see my question to you in /msg Sep 26 02:41:26 ah okay sorry Sep 26 02:41:32 had a brainfart for a second Sep 26 02:45:45 IOMonster: I expect it's just a normal notification Sep 26 02:46:05 but I'm not sure that's done in enyo, or in the QT sysmgr stuff Sep 26 02:46:25 what i've seen from normal noticiations is that they require the notification box to be open Sep 26 02:46:33 the usb notification box hovers over the entire UI Sep 26 02:46:40 in the upper right corner Sep 26 02:46:52 the skype "accept video call" box is the same too Sep 26 02:47:10 yeah, those are "special" Sep 26 02:47:35 looks like it might be called enyo.dashboard Sep 26 02:48:54 http://www.precentral.net/quick-app-popupcalc Sep 26 02:48:56 ah yep Sep 26 02:49:07 i can use that's source if i can find it Sep 26 02:50:11 https://pdnet.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16916&start=0 -- looks like what i'm looking for Sep 26 02:50:19 i just set noWindow to true Sep 26 02:50:26 and it should give us a popup notification Sep 26 02:50:36 that doesn't register in the notification list Sep 26 02:52:20 now all that needs to be done is 1) create the UI, 2) write the c-service, and 3) figure out how to pass messages between the two Sep 26 02:53:02 oh, and a sub-point of 1 is: 1.1) create the notification GUI, and 1.2) create the "manage preferences" GUI (for if you check the "always allow" box) Sep 26 02:56:21 IOMonster: also need to work out how to store the permissions in the root proxy service, the schema of what permissions are granted (is it all or nothing, or granular in some way), and the API functions that the service supports for permitted apps Sep 26 02:56:41 good point Sep 26 02:56:55 permissions could be stored in a db8 database Sep 26 02:57:01 or sqlite Sep 26 02:57:01 and whether the service needs different APIs for random apps calling it versus the companion app calling it Sep 26 02:57:28 hmm. no db8 in 1.4.5 and sqlite sucks when try to access from a C service Sep 26 02:57:29 i think the service only needs an api that accepts apppath and appargs Sep 26 02:57:31 aj Sep 26 02:57:33 *ah Sep 26 02:57:39 well Sep 26 02:57:50 dang 1.4.5 Sep 26 02:57:52 hmm Sep 26 02:58:06 1.4.5 has mojodb right? Sep 26 02:58:24 yes, but that's even harder to access from C service Sep 26 02:58:26 although i suppose that'd be a pain to access from a c-service too Sep 26 02:58:28 yep Sep 26 02:58:56 hm, what db formats do we have in 1.4.5 ? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 26 02:59:56 2011