**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 16 02:59:57 2008 Dec 16 18:26:31 morrildl: hey, do you know who is the maintainer of the E-mail app? i'm curious if any performance optimization work is going on now or in the near future? Dec 16 18:26:46 err, not E-mail, i meant Messaging Dec 16 18:27:53 they're working on it Dec 16 18:28:03 ok cool, then i wont bother Dec 16 18:28:12 There's been some performance work done there indeed. Dec 16 18:28:12 romainguy_: hey are you back from vacation? Dec 16 18:28:24 I wasn't on vacation Dec 16 18:28:40 I was at a conference in Antwerp Dec 16 18:28:44 ahh Dec 16 18:28:48 I'm now working from France till the end of the year Dec 16 18:29:26 romainguy_: if you're curious, i found the reason the messaging app is so slow on scrolls. they are performing a sql query in bindView :) Dec 16 18:30:16 ^^ Dec 16 18:30:55 so, i accepted that position at T-Mobile... Dec 16 18:31:04 what are you going to do there? Dec 16 18:31:28 apparently this issue has been fixed already Dec 16 18:31:35 they cant tell me specifics, but initially client app dev, long term platform work some of it going back into the open source project. Dec 16 18:31:52 They can't tell you specifics about a job you already accepted? :) Dec 16 18:32:21 i have to sign an NDA before they will tell me details about the project. Dec 16 18:32:57 that seems reasonable to me. Dec 16 18:33:03 Yeah, that's common. But you took the job *before* signing the NDA? I mean, I'm sure it's fine. But at least in principle they could put you to work in a coal mine.. Dec 16 18:33:36 But then I'd just quit my job as a coal miner Dec 16 18:34:16 Any job could be like that. They could just lie to you during your interview. But why would they? You would then just quit and they would have wasted resources on you Dec 16 18:35:29 we talked in detail about t-mobiles short and long term plans for android and what direction they want to take the company, and they convincd me that they have enough interesting ideas to keep me working on cool things for a while Dec 16 18:37:25 where is your job located Dec 16 18:38:26 romainguy_: t-mobile's trying to change their strategy a bit in response to android. they are correctly identifying that google and others are trying to muscle carriers into just providing services like traditional telcos do on the internet today. in response, they are building out a dev team to prototype some unique services on android (and beyond), and also to extend their smartphone device portfolio in the next couple of years. Dec 16 18:38:40 blau-MikeDG: Bellevue, at their headquarters Dec 16 18:38:44 that's cool Dec 16 18:38:51 now that I'm one of their clients... :) Dec 16 18:40:26 this is an interesting team i'm joining. t-mobile previously has not employed any software engineers to work on handsets, and they are changing that strategy big time. Dec 16 18:40:40 so it kind of has a startup feel. i get to hack on a lot of random things at first :) Dec 16 18:41:01 you're a software engineer now? :) Dec 16 18:41:14 And if it goes badly, the strategy will be denounced, and you'll be fired while wearing tar and feathers. Dec 16 18:41:17 we'll initially be prototyping a bunch of different ideas and just kind of exploring the landscape, which is why they were so excited to get someone with as much previous android experience as me Dec 16 18:42:07 So... they're running around like headless chickens, and thought sewing you onto the neck would help provide direction? Dec 16 18:42:08 romainguy_: uhm, yes. Dec 16 18:43:21 i wanna work a cool job Dec 16 18:43:24 im a software engineer Dec 16 18:43:35 jasta: lets form a software engineer dream team! Dec 16 18:43:43 fadden: what gives you that idea? it doesn't sound anything liek their strategy, nor does it sound dissimilar to most of the teams at companies like google Dec 16 18:44:36 jasta: building successful projects requires a clear direction. Many projects change directions in their early stages, but eventually they have to pick a heading or they just spin around until they run out of money. Dec 16 18:45:50 of course they do, but this team is brand new, and is exploring a new direction for the company's overall strategy. it's important to get a sense of your surroundings before you go trekking off into the woods. Dec 16 18:45:54 You might build the next Google Mail or you might build the next Google Video / Google Lively. Dec 16 18:46:13 :)) Dec 16 18:46:49 jasta: I guess what I'm really saying is, if you don't see a clear direction in 2-4 weeks, pick a direction and start pushing everybody toward it. Dec 16 18:46:53 fadden: that's what's exciting about startup work, fadden. Dec 16 18:47:24 jasta: I spent 6 months at a startup going absolutely nowhere because the "leadership" was utterly clueless. Dec 16 18:47:39 We hired one guy in the right place (VP of Eng) and the entire thing turned around in a week. Dec 16 18:47:41 but were you excited fadden? Dec 16 18:48:03 I was depressed as f--k. :-) Dec 16 18:48:12 i was sold on this job because the director of my team seemed to have his head screwed on straight. he seemed to get the big picture of what's happening to the mobile industry. Dec 16 18:48:14 sounds awesome :) Dec 16 18:48:27 The most exciting time in a startup is the early crazy days when everybody is building toward something. Fumbling around in the dark is only good for so long. Dec 16 18:48:44 jasta: big picture is good place to start. Dec 16 18:48:53 Now you need the small picture. :-) Dec 16 18:49:22 It sounds like you will have the opportunity to help pick it, which is always nifty. Dec 16 18:49:37 as long as it doesn't turn into myFaves Dec 16 18:49:39 quite honestly, even if this team sucks and their products never take shape, i'm happy to be a mercenary for a while with the salary they offered me :) Dec 16 18:49:49 (which would mean more weird feature requests for Home) Dec 16 18:50:12 romainguy_: nah, if they want that, just make jasta implement them in their own git tree ;) Dec 16 18:50:29 ah true Dec 16 18:50:38 then they will see Home's source code, cry and forget the idea Dec 16 18:51:06 myFaves!! Dec 16 18:51:07 Maybe we can get T-Mobile to add some features to ListView. Dec 16 18:51:17 romainguy_: i'm sure you'll love to know that a "perk" of hiring me was that i have existing relationships with google engineers hehe. Dec 16 18:51:17 i hope tmobile makes textview better Dec 16 18:51:39 jasta: honestly, I don't care Dec 16 18:51:46 morrildl: erm, actually, they are looking at doing platform work against the open source project too. Dec 16 18:52:11 but that they have a very clear goal in mind. they want to expand android to a wider range of devices Dec 16 18:52:35 Like toasters? Dec 16 18:52:42 exclusively, yes Dec 16 18:52:51 Ooooh! Dec 16 18:52:53 but lots of different kinds of toasters Dec 16 18:53:06 I can start my toast from the car on the way home! Dec 16 18:53:09 can i send mms to my toaster so it toasts the picture onto my bread? Dec 16 18:53:09 ones made specifically for bagels, toaster ovens, 4 slice toasters Dec 16 18:53:10 etc Dec 16 18:53:37 blau-MikeDG: yes, but i think that will be a Google Labs extension after the fact Dec 16 18:53:58 one of the first Java apps was used to laser-burn the weather on toasts in a toaster Dec 16 18:54:01 so why not Dec 16 18:54:36 The UI has "toasts"; why can't toast have a UI? Dec 16 18:54:49 Print your e-mail on toast. Read your morning e-mail, then eat it. Dec 16 18:55:00 fadden, it's green! Dec 16 18:55:05 Driving in to work? Spread some TrafficJam on that! Dec 16 18:55:11 oh my god Dec 16 18:55:17 that last one literally hurt to read Dec 16 18:55:27 my stomach churned :) Dec 16 18:55:39 I'm cruel some days. Dec 16 18:55:42 we can save the world by burning news on edible paper! Dec 16 18:55:54 paper already is edible :) Dec 16 18:56:02 tasty paper! Dec 16 18:56:05 rich in fiber Dec 16 18:56:16 Sigh. Gay sex jokes in #android, and the low-noise channel suddenly becomes #android-puns. Something weird in the air today? Dec 16 18:56:44 nothing seems weird about #android to me today. it's drivel just like always. Dec 16 18:57:11 "It's beginning to look a lot like christmas ..." Dec 16 18:57:24 #android wearies me Dec 16 18:57:36 If the traffice in this channel keeps up, I might stop hanging out there Dec 16 18:58:00 This channel is generally populated but quiet until somebody has a technical question. Dec 16 18:58:18 #android is quiet until somebody wiggles their fingers, with or without their brain engaged. Dec 16 18:58:47 * blau-MikeDG looks for a job opening requiring 10 years of Android experience Dec 16 18:59:08 blau-MikeDG: usually it has to be out for at least 3 years before you find those. Dec 16 18:59:26 ahh ok Dec 16 18:59:26 with the hours pulled by some people on the team, I'm sure you can find engineers with 10 years of experience on Android actually Dec 16 18:59:29 Or equally likely, resumes of people with 10 years of Android experience. Dec 16 18:59:47 romainguy_: I don't think it works that way Dec 16 18:59:56 :) Dec 16 19:00:01 jasta: im gonna be your teammate! http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?JobID=78072831&JobTitle=Senior+Developer,+Android&q=android&rad=20&rad_units=miles&brd=1&cy=us&vw=b&AVSDM=2008-12-11+16:40:00&pg=1&seq=1 Dec 16 19:00:46 I have a recruiter banging on me for jobs in WA, VA, or San Jose CA. Dec 16 19:00:57 C'est la LinkedIn Dec 16 19:01:10 no android jobs in east coast on monster :( Dec 16 19:01:45 Stay away from LinkedIn. It's the dice.com of the new decade. Dec 16 19:05:46 i think im gonna work on a bootycall app for android, Dec 16 19:05:55 think of all the publicity i can get for google Dec 16 19:10:46 blau-MikeDG: are you qualified for a senior developer role? Dec 16 19:11:58 yeah Dec 16 19:12:12 anyone here using the charts API with their app Dec 16 19:12:21 blau-MikeDG: why do i find that hard to believe? Dec 16 19:12:32 jasta: cause you dont know me? Dec 16 19:12:51 well, if you really are qualified, go for it. you'd outrank me on the team ;) Dec 16 19:13:36 or can someone let me know if there's going to be libraries for charting shipping with the next release of the SDK? Dec 16 19:15:05 no Dec 16 19:16:38 jasta: did you relocate for the job? Dec 16 19:23:11 no, i live in seattle Dec 16 19:23:39 romainguy_: no to let me know or no there's not going to be. Dec 16 19:24:27 ;-) Dec 16 19:25:55 lappy: you can make libraries! Dec 16 19:27:20 blau-MikeDG: you can re-invent the wheel too don-cha-know. Dec 16 19:27:52 i already made a wheel Dec 16 19:27:54 its awesome Dec 16 19:28:03 triangles rule Dec 16 19:38:17 morrildl: Can you tell me the right Uri to use with the View Action for sms/mms? Dec 16 20:37:06 hello people Dec 16 20:38:05 hi Dec 16 20:38:38 someone here has experience build a tabular grid ? Dec 16 20:39:48 you mean like GridLayout? Dec 16 20:40:18 err GridView Dec 16 20:40:20 jast like an excel sheet with first column with labels Dec 16 20:43:16 wel, generally you could use a gridview with specially styled edittext widgets Dec 16 20:43:36 but for performance reasons if you are trying to create a spreadsheet type app you definitely should write your own view/layout for this. Dec 16 20:46:39 okas Dec 16 20:46:41 thx Dec 16 20:46:49 * jbq agrees with jasta Dec 16 22:37:16 Do the kool kids use HttpUrlConnection or HttpClient? Dec 16 22:37:51 * andyross would think truly kool kids would roll their own HTTP implementation... Dec 16 22:39:00 the kool kids write a native app using only as and ld, or alternatively using only a very small magnet Dec 16 22:40:42 HttpClient provides more control IMO. Dec 16 22:43:48 the kool kids are too busy smoking and beating up the smart kids Dec 16 22:53:56 is there a way to simulate tilting/rotating the phone on the emulator? Dec 16 23:28:39 jasta: Congratulations on your new job :) I haven't been keeping up. Dec 16 23:29:25 thanks Dec 16 23:29:33 im very excited :) Dec 16 23:29:54 Have read above, I can see why. Dec 16 23:32:21 Does this have any implications for five? Dec 16 23:33:44 i dont think so. Dec 16 23:33:59 if it does, me and t-mobile have some BIG problems to work out :) Dec 16 23:34:26 they know about five, and i was very clear during the hiring process that it was an important project of mine, which i would be releasing formally some time in 2009. Dec 16 23:34:40 and for free :) Dec 16 23:35:21 jasta: employment agreements / NDAs usually come with a "list of prior inventions" that you attach Dec 16 23:36:31 And check state laws too. Most of the more onerous invention clauses in contracts aren't enforceable in practice. I know CA specifically has a bunch of employee protection laws about that. Dec 16 23:37:00 Yup. Also, non-compete clauses aren't enforceable here. Dec 16 23:37:04 i actually have a lawyer friend who can help me review ;) Dec 16 23:37:36 Microsoft's agreement basically said, "we own anything that even vaguely entered your mind at any time while you worked here". Dec 16 23:37:51 My officemate and I had that adjusted. :-) Dec 16 23:38:10 (I worked for WebTV, which got acquired by MSFT) Dec 16 23:38:12 i expect that t-mobile is not even experienced enough in this industry to do something that evil Dec 16 23:38:25 jasta: their lawyers are Dec 16 23:38:29 Actually, companies like that are usually worse. Dec 16 23:38:43 The experienced companies have had employees fight back more than once and found a usfeul compromise. Dec 16 23:38:48 And if all else fails just cross out whatever you can't agree with and sign the contract anyway. The managers will freak trying to figure out how to deal with it, but ultimately they want you more than contract adherence. Dec 16 23:39:06 andyross++ Dec 16 23:39:17 khert: on a Mac, keypad 7 (iirc) toggles orientation Dec 16 23:39:28 andyross: yeah, i have done that before on unrelated contracts ive signed Dec 16 23:39:31 alas i do not know what the equivalent is on Linux or Windows Dec 16 23:39:40 When I was leaving MSFT, they handed me a piece of paper and said, "we'd like you to sign this". I said "that's nice" and pushed it back. Some "you agree not to say mean things about us" language. Dec 16 23:39:42 i did that with my current rent agreement :) Dec 16 23:39:58 fadden: did they withhold your last paycheck, accured PTO payout, etc? Dec 16 23:40:09 "emulator -help-keys" is usually useful Dec 16 23:40:16 ctate: nope Dec 16 23:40:18 that's basically the threat i've faced over the exit document in the past Dec 16 23:40:26 Don't think they can actually do that. Dec 16 23:40:30 At least not in California. Dec 16 23:40:35 good to know Dec 16 23:40:41 laywers are spendy though :( Dec 16 23:40:42 i would be very surprised if they could Dec 16 23:40:54 Big companies won't do that. It's a class action suit waiting to happen. Small employers might try, on the same logic that renters will refuse to return a security deposit. Dec 16 23:41:03 ctate: find somebody in the California Employment Development Department. Dec 16 23:41:18 The EDD takes a "we saw some evidence of trouble, let's assume it's rampant and fine the hell out of them" approach. Dec 16 23:41:22 some friends of mine work in a state with a large body of computer industry, but in which noncompete agreements are enforceable. they say it stinks. Dec 16 23:41:33 woooo, good to know, thanks Dec 16 23:41:41 fadden: also, you can often find free legal council on issues like that because they are banking on class action potential Dec 16 23:42:12 like "hey lawyer, my blatantly stole from me." gets them all excited :) Dec 16 23:42:58 ctate: not suprising. there's been some research that suggests that the lack of non-competes in CA has contributed to the vitality of the Valley Dec 16 23:43:51 My favorite bit of fun was the Microsoft "moonlighting" agreement. Dec 16 23:44:16 It basically said, you do everything on your own time and own equipment, and MSFT gets right of first refusal on anything you do. Dec 16 23:44:16 if you don't give your work to MS, bruce willis comes and beats you up? Dec 16 23:44:38 fadden: Wow. I'd never sign an agreement like that Dec 16 23:44:41 As opposed to not signing it, in which case anything you do on your own time/equipment is your property exclusively. Dec 16 23:44:57 An employment lawyer said, "don't ask, don't tell". Dec 16 23:45:09 Interesting Dec 16 23:45:59 fadden: In the UK that clause is a standard and enforcible part of most contracts Dec 16 23:46:04 I can't believe I just spent 2 hours giving a deposition to help MSFT fight a patent lawsuit. :-) Dec 16 23:46:23 ctate, thnx Dec 16 23:46:27 why in the hell did you do that? Dec 16 23:46:42 Because the only thing I hate less than spammers are patent trolls. Dec 16 23:46:54 s/less/more/ ? Dec 16 23:47:01 yeah, what an odd phrasing ;) Dec 16 23:47:03 No, I still hate spammers more. :-) Dec 16 23:47:18 "I do not think it means what you think it means." Dec 16 23:47:59 FWIW, discovery depositions can be subpoenad. He might not have had a choice. Dec 16 23:48:29 The first thing the plaintiff asked: were you aware that you were being subpoenad? (answer: no) Dec 16 23:48:42 fadden: ha Dec 16 23:48:59 Apparently they were unable to serve me, which worked out okay for them since the defendant brought us together for a deposition anyway. Dec 16 23:49:01 So you only *thought* you had a choice. Neat trick. Dec 16 23:49:46 I could have avoided the whole thing by refusing to help at all in the first place. Dec 16 23:50:36 I have pack-rat tendencies, so having copies of source code from 1991 is not unusual. :-) Dec 16 23:50:45 Sort of handy for establishing prior art. Dec 16 23:51:28 The fun part is that I contributed to a previous defense of the same damn patent. Dec 16 23:51:49 HearMe went out of business, assets got bought by PalTalk. HearMe vs. LipStream, now PalTalk vs. Microsoft. Dec 16 23:52:24 I'm consistently seeing "504 Gateway Time-out" responses on HTTP requests that go through T-mobile's proxies en-route to a Google app-engine application. The server-app and phone network connection seem fine. The response comes back after just a couple of seconds, so it looks bogus to me. Any ideas? Dec 16 23:52:38 fadden: What's the patent? Dec 16 23:53:42 tomgibara: multi-player gaming patent. Apparently affects some game called "Halo 2" and another one called "Halo 3". Dec 16 23:54:24 Not related to the Goldman patent the EFF was fighting, for which Netrek also provided useful prior art. Dec 17 00:22:49 fadden: that's awesome Dec 17 00:22:53 (re NetTrek) Dec 17 00:30:53 tomgibara: does it work on WiFi? Dec 17 00:31:37 morrildl: Yes Dec 17 00:33:03 morrildl: It's intermittent, lasting for hours at a time - occurs both in the US and in the UK too. Dec 17 00:33:46 tomgibara: you tested in the US? Dec 17 00:34:00 ...or you had someone test for you? Dec 17 00:34:07 morrildl: latter Dec 17 00:34:53 tomgibara: okay. my ultimate question being, US SIM, or just UK SIM tested in US. Dec 17 00:35:24 morrildl: UK SIM in UK and US SIM in US Dec 17 00:35:59 tomgibara: okay that is helpful Dec 17 00:36:10 tomgibara: any errors showing your your appengine log? Dec 17 00:38:01 tomgibara: also, what's your app engine instance's name, and what URI are you using to access it? (DM me if you like) Dec 17 01:43:02 where are messages logged when using the Log class? the doc doesn't say Dec 17 01:44:32 khert, adb logcat or ddms Dec 17 01:45:42 got it, thnx Dec 17 02:11:45 Hi. Is there a Nightly build of AlarmClock out there somewhere? Dec 17 02:16:29 uhm, i think i may be experiencing a really serious system bug right now. any folks familiar with the system_server around right now? Dec 17 02:16:57 my phone is gc'ing like mad, with the system_server taking 50% cpu constantly. previously it was starting and stopping the scoreboard app service in an infinite loop Dec 17 02:19:27 its gc'ing every 2 seconds: Dec 17 02:19:37 D/dalvikvm( 52): GC freed 14702 objects / 978760 bytes in 269ms Dec 17 02:19:37 D/dalvikvm( 52): GC freed 14295 objects / 967776 bytes in 263ms Dec 17 02:19:37 D/dalvikvm( 52): GC freed 14547 objects / 951448 bytes in 268ms Dec 17 02:19:37 D/dalvikvm( 52): GC freed 14362 objects / 959984 bytes in 260ms Dec 17 02:19:37 D/dalvikvm( 52): GC freed 14489 objects / 961536 bytes in 340ms Dec 17 02:20:24 im afraid to reboot and lose any useful state that could lead to fixing whatever bug caused this Dec 17 02:28:42 lol, i posted a bug report and i just realized adb bugreport has the content of text messages i received! ugh, you guys should fix that :) Dec 17 02:41:06 interesting, this bug survived a reboot **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 17 02:59:57 2008