**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 26 14:18:21 2009
Mar 26 17:35:09 <bilboed-pi> where does repo store it's configuration ?
Mar 26 17:35:24 * bilboed-pi trying to switch manifests
Mar 26 17:48:08 <anno^da-> Does someone know if it is possible to shut down Android with the SDK? (to create an app that shuts the phone down at a specific point of time)
Mar 26 17:50:15 <romainguy__> no you cannot
Mar 26 17:50:57 <anno^da-> thank you romainguy__ :)
Mar 26 19:22:01 <Varan> Does anyone know if there is a process manager like system monitor in android?
Mar 26 19:22:22 <vol> adb shell, top
Mar 26 19:22:35 <vol> kill the pid of the process you despise
Mar 26 19:22:38 <Varan> yeah ... something better to read and use :P
Mar 26 19:22:40 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 19:22:41 <vol> android is not windows, only one thing is running at a time
Mar 26 19:22:54 <Varan> euhm
Mar 26 19:23:00 <vol> you don't have minesweeper taking up cpu power in the background
Mar 26 19:23:04 <Varan> there are background processes right
Mar 26 19:23:15 <Varan> like msn app that comunicates
Mar 26 19:24:52 <Varan> do you need root to kill an app
Mar 26 19:25:36 <Varan> hmm yes ...
Mar 26 19:25:52 <Varan> is there a way to bring an app to the forground?
Mar 26 19:36:52 <ctate> Varan: Yes but don't do that.
Mar 26 19:37:03 <ctate> it's very bad UI
Mar 26 19:37:08 <Varan> hmm owke :P
Mar 26 19:37:24 <ctate> [you just startActivity() it again]
Mar 26 19:38:09 <ctate> activities/applications that are not in the foreground are not sucking a lot of cpu or anything unless they're running services
Mar 26 19:38:18 <ctate> i.e. explicitly asking to run in the background
Mar 26 19:38:30 <ctate> and if the system needs the memory, it will just tear them down on an as-needed basis
Mar 26 19:38:36 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 19:39:19 <Varan> I think its really nice system .. only complaint that i have is that i dnt have any control over if a app is closed
Mar 26 19:39:37 <ctate> you do!  you just switch to something else!
Mar 26 19:39:39 <Varan> i can only send it to the background
Mar 26 19:39:48 <Varan> yes but ... if the app mis behaves
Mar 26 19:39:50 <ctate> i guess my question is "why is it relevant"?
Mar 26 19:39:57 <ctate> ah, i see
Mar 26 19:39:59 <Varan> in background
Mar 26 19:40:15 <Varan> Its kind of power user thingy .. normal users dont really care
Mar 26 19:40:17 <Varan> :P
Mar 26 19:40:22 <ctate> in the future there will be better ways to detect such misbehaving apps ("who is taking all my battery?!!")
Mar 26 19:40:32 <ctate> work underway for that
Mar 26 19:40:47 <ctate> bbiab
Mar 26 19:40:49 <Varan> For example ... i had an api demo app (morse code) that put on my vibrate ... and left it on...
Mar 26 19:47:20 <vol> did you place it between your crotch?
Mar 26 19:47:31 <vol> if you're not going to pull the battery, at least get use out of it
Mar 26 19:48:29 <Varan> what?(!)
Mar 26 19:48:32 <vol> anyway, the way the vibration manager works is you tell it to vibrate for a specific amount of time, or in a pattern
Mar 26 19:48:47 <vol> it will then vibrate for that time or pattern until cancelled
Mar 26 19:49:04 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 19:49:14 <vol> so, switching away from the app but leaving the vibration intact may be perfectly reasonable
Mar 26 19:49:24 <Varan> but my point was ... only way to stop is was to shutdown the whole phone
Mar 26 19:49:31 <Varan> yes
Mar 26 19:49:34 <Varan> i understand :P
Mar 26 19:49:40 <vol> yeah, that's something that's going to be addressed apparently
Mar 26 19:50:22 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 19:50:37 <Varan> Thats why i would like to beable to kill apps
Mar 26 19:50:44 <Varan> but apperently you need to be root
Mar 26 19:51:33 <vol> well, you can always root your phone :3
Mar 26 19:51:45 <Varan> Hmm ... just figured out that google is very bad at converting latex documents in pdf format to html :P
Mar 26 19:52:01 <Varan> yes but i think you cant get the lastest updates ... (right?)
Mar 26 19:53:21 <Varan> besides i heard you need a gold card thing or something for EU (non britten) countrys
Mar 26 19:54:14 <vol> ah yes, it's a little trickier for other countries
Mar 26 19:54:31 <vol> you can always use adb if you need to to control your phone
Mar 26 19:54:39 <vol> but that necessitates having a computer nearby
Mar 26 19:55:14 <Varan> you have root in adb?
Mar 26 19:56:08 <vol> well, you don't have root shell access, but you can kill processes via ddms
Mar 26 19:56:15 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:00:37 <Varan> But i think google should provide me with an option to kill the apps on the phone ... atleast the ones i downloaded...
Mar 26 20:00:53 <Varan> Seems only fair :P
Mar 26 20:02:03 <ctate> go to the app -> hit 'back' -> it's quit.
Mar 26 20:02:13 <ctate> 'Home' and 'Back' do different things
Mar 26 20:02:15 <Varan> not really :P
Mar 26 20:02:23 <Varan> As i was saying when you left
Mar 26 20:02:26 <ctate> it's stopped
Mar 26 20:02:32 <Varan> <Varan> For example ... i had an api demo app (morse code) that put on my vibrate ... and left it on...
Mar 26 20:02:43 <ctate> that's a *bug* :)
Mar 26 20:02:45 <Varan> and i had to reboot
Mar 26 20:02:50 <ctate> system bug
Mar 26 20:02:51 <Varan> yes i know
Mar 26 20:02:57 <Varan> but there are always bugs
Mar 26 20:02:58 <Varan> :P
Mar 26 20:03:18 <Varan> i dont like to reboot my phone for every bug ... or mistake someone makes
Mar 26 20:03:20 <ctate> if you had to reboot, then some application-manager that forcibly quit it wouldn't have helped
Mar 26 20:03:38 <Varan> yes it would .. i could have killed the app
Mar 26 20:03:59 <Varan> and it would stop i should think
Mar 26 20:03:59 <ctate> i'm clearly not being clear :)
Mar 26 20:04:08 <Varan> clearly ....
Mar 26 20:04:21 <ctate> if you hit 'back' the activity is stopped and the application made ready to tear down
Mar 26 20:04:26 <ctate> nothing there is still running
Mar 26 20:04:31 <ctate> there's nothing to "quit"
Mar 26 20:04:39 <Varan> Hmm ah
Mar 26 20:04:47 <Varan> is this always true...?
Mar 26 20:04:58 <Varan> because for example the msn apps
Mar 26 20:05:02 <Varan> the run in background
Mar 26 20:05:05 <ctate> the underlying linux *process* still exists, because if you want to run that activity again any time soon it saves battery to be able to reuse it
Mar 26 20:05:06 <Varan> they
Mar 26 20:05:17 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:05:24 <ctate> 'back' versus 'home' keys do different things
Mar 26 20:05:34 <Varan> ow?
Mar 26 20:05:46 <ctate> 'home' brings the Home app back to the front, relaunching it if necessary, but does not otherwise disturb the app history
Mar 26 20:06:02 <Varan> Ah owke i understand...
Mar 26 20:06:10 <ctate> 'back' finishes the frontmost activity and gets rid of it, going back to the previous activity
Mar 26 20:06:18 <Varan> but what about the apps that do things in the background?
Mar 26 20:06:46 <Varan> an activity is always only one screen?
Mar 26 20:07:00 <ctate> a service that no existing activity is bound to will be stopped
Mar 26 20:07:43 <ctate> right, one Activity has one "window" worth of UI, plus potentially a dialog or some such at times
Mar 26 20:07:54 <Varan> ah owke
Mar 26 20:08:20 <Varan> and all the activitys and services run in one vm?
Mar 26 20:08:26 <Varan> of one app i mean
Mar 26 20:08:29 <Varan> one vm per app
Mar 26 20:08:32 <ctate> right
Mar 26 20:09:07 <ctate> (with some advanced possibilities; you *can* set up multiple applications that are designed to reside in the same process, but it's unusual and something that is done by the developer, not by the user)
Mar 26 20:09:11 <Varan> But you cannot stop a service right?
Mar 26 20:09:22 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:09:31 <ctate> not explicitly -- they're stopped when no running application/activity is bound to them
Mar 26 20:09:46 <Varan> what does bound mean? ...
Mar 26 20:09:53 <Varan> not on foreground...
Mar 26 20:10:09 <ctate> it's when an app explicitly says "i want to use this service so give me an IPC reference to it please"
Mar 26 20:10:25 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:10:38 <Varan> so the app decides this?
Mar 26 20:11:07 <vol> ctate: I thought that services could specify that they want to stick around after the last activity disconnects
Mar 26 20:11:11 <ctate> the app decides whether it's going to use a service
Mar 26 20:11:20 <ctate> vol:  even app-provided ones?
Mar 26 20:11:26 <vol> ... yes? :<
Mar 26 20:11:28 <ctate> vol:  (i'm hazy on the service end of things)
Mar 26 20:11:30 <vol> Am I mistaken?
Mar 26 20:11:35 <ctate> i dunno :)
Mar 26 20:11:53 <ctate> if that's true then it is indeed a bit of an issue what Varan is saying -- it's unclear when the service would be torn down in that case
Mar 26 20:12:12 <ctate> and that potentially means a battery sink with no UI, == bad.
Mar 26 20:12:22 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:12:42 <vol> http://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Context.html#startService(android.content.Intent)
Mar 26 20:12:48 <Varan> but even if there is still an ui ... be never call to the forground
Mar 26 20:13:02 <Varan> and I dont use the service anymore...
Mar 26 20:13:08 <Varan> also battery drain right?
Mar 26 20:13:17 <vol> I mean, this is how things like last.fm work, right?
Mar 26 20:13:28 <vol> a service runs in the background to download music and feed it into the mediaplayer
Mar 26 20:13:47 <ctate> oh hm.  well in that case it's got a live connection to something, it's not just sitting there unbound but active
Mar 26 20:13:54 <ctate> well, un-whatevered
Mar 26 20:14:02 <vol> regardless, startService seems to say it can just sit there
Mar 26 20:14:10 <Varan> yeah but the user never uses it
Mar 26 20:15:04 <ctate> hm, i see
Mar 26 20:15:06 <ctate> yeah
Mar 26 20:15:17 <ctate> okay, i was thinking of the bindService() case, sigh
Mar 26 20:15:19 <Varan> so ... then you might want to kill it :P
Mar 26 20:15:32 <ctate> bad-behaved services are indeed something that is currently very hard to deal with
Mar 26 20:15:41 <ctate> but like i said, we're actively working on addressing that sort of thing
Mar 26 20:15:57 <Varan> but i think the current application model is very well thought out by google ...
Mar 26 20:16:01 <ctate> (err, "we" because i work for Google on the Android project, fwiw)
Mar 26 20:16:19 <Varan> heh owke
Mar 26 20:16:26 <Varan> how many people work on android?
Mar 26 20:16:30 <Varan> at google
Mar 26 20:16:55 <ctate> in general that is not a kind of question that companies are allowed to answer, because it reveals to their competitors information about how they're allocating resources
Mar 26 20:17:10 <Varan> ow oke .. sorry ... forget it :P
Mar 26 20:17:11 <ctate> that's especially true of non-managerial types like me :)
Mar 26 20:17:38 <ctate> if the CEO says, that's something a little different :)
Mar 26 20:17:56 <tbr> sorry to disturb your discussion but is there any way to reference another string resource within a string resource?
Mar 26 20:17:56 <Varan> didn't want to fish for 'company secrets' :P
Mar 26 20:18:16 <vol> put a function in yo function
Mar 26 20:18:22 <vol> so you can derive while you derive
Mar 26 20:18:49 <vol> also, localtime seems to be broken, or we just fucking suck at using it : (
Mar 26 20:19:52 <vol> nnggg.
Mar 26 20:19:56 <vol> how large is a long?
Mar 26 20:19:59 <vol> 32 bits or 64?
Mar 26 20:20:01 <ctate> in java? 64 bits
Mar 26 20:20:05 <vol> in c++ : (
Mar 26 20:20:09 <ctate> 32
Mar 26 20:20:11 <vol> in particular your voodoo brand of c++
Mar 26 20:20:11 <vol> yeah
Mar 26 20:20:11 <Varan> I have one other question wich might be sensative ... I was having a discussion with someone how the gsm stack is implemented on the android ... because it would have to run in a real-time operating system ... are there just two operating systems running next to each other?
Mar 26 20:20:13 <vol> that would do it
Mar 26 20:20:15 <ctate> jlong is 64
Mar 26 20:20:20 <vol> can't stuff millis since the epoch into an int.
Mar 26 20:20:26 <ctate> mmmmmmmmmmno.
Mar 26 20:20:34 <vol> no wonder we're getting january 14, 1970
Mar 26 20:20:42 <vol> bah
Mar 26 20:20:46 <vol> long long
Mar 26 20:20:49 <vol> what a terrible type name ._.
Mar 26 20:20:53 <ctate> Varan: Android does not run the cellphone or other radio operations
Mar 26 20:21:13 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 20:21:19 <Varan> so thats done by htc
Mar 26 20:21:25 <ctate> Varan: in the G1, there are two main cpus, an ARM11 slave that runs the Android OS and all the apps and so on, and an ARM9 master that runs the radio and acts as the primary hardware controller
Mar 26 20:21:41 <Varan> hmm interesting
Mar 26 20:21:48 <ctate> Google & Android did not write any of the code that runs on the ARM9, and in fact we've never seen the source code for it to my knowledge
Mar 26 20:21:55 <tbr> mediumish long secondsSinceEpoch;
Mar 26 20:22:08 <ctate> i gather that this is almost universal on smartphones
Mar 26 20:22:25 <vol> tbr: that's just a long
Mar 26 20:22:26 <Varan> because this person with i was having the discussion with ... said this techniek was not being adopted because it was to expensive (two chips)
Mar 26 20:22:27 <vol> (until 2038)
Mar 26 20:22:45 <ctate> Varan: that was true ten years ago, much less so now
Mar 26 20:22:45 <Varan> but apperently that has changed
Mar 26 20:22:49 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:22:57 <Varan> be worked for philips in the mobile branch
Mar 26 20:23:12 <ctate> especially now that it's so much easier to put multiple sophisticated components on single dies
Mar 26 20:23:16 <Varan> or what was philips ...
Mar 26 20:23:23 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:23:26 <Varan> owke
Mar 26 20:24:11 <Varan> I think you should be glade to not need to see the htc code ... lots of contracts have to be signed and stuff :P
Mar 26 20:24:30 <ctate> (there are some other CPUs in a G1, too:  a GPU and a DSP, etc)
Mar 26 20:24:35 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:24:47 <ctate> yeah, we're not entirely unhappy about not having to deal with the radio code :)
Mar 26 20:24:53 <Varan> :P
Mar 26 20:25:09 <ctate> except that when there are problems it makes it harder to diagnose sometimes, of course
Mar 26 20:25:25 <Varan> yeah
Mar 26 20:25:35 <Varan> build a good simulator :P
Mar 26 20:26:13 <ctate> heh
Mar 26 20:26:47 <ctate> ah yeah, apparently the G1 uses a Qualcomm dual-core cpu die
Mar 26 20:26:56 <Varan> What are they going to change about the battery info? (yeah where saying something about it few minutes ago) ... It would be nice to see how much power is being drawn so it can estimate ow long the battery will last
Mar 26 20:26:58 <ctate> so the ARM11 and the ARM9 [ARM7 maybe? i thought it was a 9] are on the same die
Mar 26 20:27:13 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 20:27:27 <ctate> at the least you should be able to find out exactly what apps & services are using how much battery
Mar 26 20:27:40 <Varan> but there is only one core used by android right?
Mar 26 20:27:47 <ctate> right, Android code runs only on the ARM11 core
Mar 26 20:27:49 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 20:28:00 <ctate> we do not have access to the ARM9
Mar 26 20:28:04 <Varan> but there are two cores with differenct archs?
Mar 26 20:28:09 <ctate> yeah, crazy but true
Mar 26 20:28:11 <Varan> thats kinda strage ... :P
Mar 26 20:28:13 <Varan> hmm
Mar 26 20:28:14 <Varan> owke
Mar 26 20:28:19 <Varan> if it works :)
Mar 26 20:28:32 <Varan> kinda cool
Mar 26 20:28:33 <ctate> in a way it's no less strange than e.g. putting an ARM core and a DSP core on the same die, which is pretty common
Mar 26 20:28:53 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 20:30:29 <Varan> Thanks for all the info :)
Mar 26 20:32:23 <ctate> no problem
Mar 26 20:43:01 <Varan> Hmm was just thinking. Would it not nice to atleast have an overview of wich services are running? For example in the ongoing notifications. Or somewhere else
Mar 26 22:27:05 <Varan> Owke my phone just rebooted out of the blue .. is there a way to get the logs?
Mar 26 22:40:40 <Falcon4ever> using Log Collector (market application)
Mar 26 22:41:55 <Varan> oke
Mar 26 22:43:23 <xavd> just run 'adb logcat'
Mar 26 22:44:50 <Varan> owke now to find the point where it crashed :P
Mar 26 22:44:54 <Varan> no time stamps :(
Mar 26 22:45:47 <xavd> ah there's an option for that
Mar 26 22:46:34 <xavd> you could use the logcat view in ddms, same info, with filters and time stamp
Mar 26 22:47:20 <Varan> is there some way to see when it boots
Mar 26 22:47:30 <Varan> some action that is only preformed on boot
Mar 26 22:47:38 <xavd> look for ANDROID RUNTIME RESTART (or something close)
Mar 26 22:47:41 <Varan> like sim unlock
Mar 26 22:47:43 <Varan> ah owke
Mar 26 22:48:07 <Varan> dont have that
Mar 26 22:48:38 <xavd> exact string: AndroidRuntime START
Mar 26 22:50:06 <Varan> Nope ... maybe the reboot isn't on the log
Mar 26 22:51:20 <Varan> I do have this 03-26 23:26:55.241: DEBUG/ActivityManager(56): Start running!
Mar 26 22:51:56 <xavd> it should be in the log
Mar 26 22:52:18 <Varan> could it be that is was pushed out of the log
Mar 26 22:52:25 <Varan> because it was to long ago
Mar 26 22:52:31 <xavd> yeah maybe
Mar 26 22:52:55 <Varan> bummer :(
Mar 26 22:53:01 <Varan> no way to retrive it then?
Mar 26 23:07:56 <ctate> btw, adb logcat can show you timestamps.  try running it as adb logcat -v time
Mar 26 23:08:27 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 23:09:25 <ctate> and yeah, that "Start running!" message is printed once when the framework comes up.
Mar 26 23:09:46 <ctate> when it rebooted, did it go back to the animated Android logo, or did it go all the way to the boot splash screen?
Mar 26 23:10:21 <Varan> all the way
Mar 26 23:10:34 <Varan> but i dont have log of before the crash :(
Mar 26 23:10:47 <Varan> so cant really tell what happend
Mar 26 23:10:53 <ctate> hmm.
Mar 26 23:11:05 <ctate> all the way implies something very bad, possibly hardware
Mar 26 23:11:12 <ctate> for example, sometimes the batteries are loose
Mar 26 23:11:25 <ctate> this makes for a bad user experience.  :(
Mar 26 23:11:44 <Varan> yes :P
Mar 26 23:12:06 <Varan> but i do have better cell reseption now ... dont know why :P
Mar 26 23:12:11 <Varan> dont think it's related
Mar 26 23:12:16 <ctate> when it came up again you wound up finding a different tower
Mar 26 23:12:33 <ctate> that sort of thing happens a lot
Mar 26 23:12:39 <Varan> hmm maybe ... but the network here is not too good here
Mar 26 23:12:52 <ctate> if you're midway between two (or more) cells it happens a *LOT*.
Mar 26 23:12:58 <Varan> before i had no cell in this room
Mar 26 23:13:03 <Varan> now 50%
Mar 26 23:13:18 <Varan> hmm owke
Mar 26 23:21:14 <Varan> Hmm owke ... going to sleep 00:21 here :P
Mar 26 23:21:21 <Falcon4ever> lol
Mar 26 23:21:30 <Falcon4ever> Varan: mietje
Mar 26 23:22:33 <ctate> schlafen sie gut :)
Mar 26 23:22:47 <ctate> (wrong language i expect :) )
Mar 26 23:23:32 <Falcon4ever> ctate: haha
Mar 26 23:23:48 <Falcon4ever> ctate: try: "Welterusten lekker ding" @ Varan
Mar 26 23:25:15 * ctate will run that past his Dutch coworker first
Mar 26 23:25:33 <Falcon4ever> damn :P
Mar 26 23:25:36 <ctate> :D
Mar 27 00:29:58 <chouman82> how do i get the R.java file back if it is accidentally deleted?
Mar 27 00:30:34 <tbr> eclipse should rebuild it automatically. if not, you probabaly have an error somewhere in your resources
Mar 27 00:33:52 <chouman82> got it thanks
Mar 27 02:11:36 <tbr> how can i disable/enable or show/hide a tab?
Mar 27 02:15:20 <tbr> should i use two tabhosts and just switch between them?
Mar 27 02:15:36 <tbr> that probably won't even work
Mar 27 02:29:47 <tbr> i don't think it's possible
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Mar 27 02:59:57 2009