**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 12 02:59:56 2008 Jul 12 03:54:41 Is there a list of submitted apps and their descriptions? (so I know if someone has already developed something?) Jul 12 03:55:01 yakischloba: you mean the 1788 apps? Jul 12 03:55:06 yeah. those. Jul 12 03:55:22 some are listed in helloandroid.com Jul 12 03:55:31 some others in anddev.org Jul 12 04:05:55 Thanks Jul 12 04:06:05 no official list Jul 12 04:06:41 yes there is Jul 12 04:06:50 where? Jul 12 04:06:54 with descriptions as well? Jul 12 04:07:31 ttp://code.google.com/android/images/adc1r1_deck.pdf Jul 12 04:07:33 http://code.google.com/android/images/adc1r1_deck.pdf Jul 12 04:07:41 is that the whole 1788? Jul 12 04:07:52 yeah Jul 12 04:08:06 cool Jul 12 04:08:50 are you sure? Jul 12 04:09:19 no Jul 12 04:09:36 hehe Jul 12 04:09:44 its only the 50! Jul 12 04:09:48 yakischloba: what do you want to do Jul 12 04:10:33 for tracking food intake and exercise Jul 12 04:11:11 ha, fitness Jul 12 04:11:17 lol Jul 12 04:11:34 we'll see whos laughing you fat slob! Jul 12 04:11:45 ncie Jul 12 04:11:46 nice Jul 12 04:11:53 Has anyone done that yet? Jul 12 04:11:53 that would be a hit Jul 12 04:12:04 people are fitness crazy everywhere Jul 12 04:14:30 I can't find anything. Jul 12 04:14:36 not in top 50 Jul 12 04:14:47 might be in 1788 Jul 12 04:14:52 yeah. Jul 12 04:16:42 Anyone got guesses as to what obvious thing I'm overlooking that's making my TextView (modelled on the Lunar Lander example one) not show up ? Jul 12 04:17:13 yesterday I couldn't get events to show up because I'd forgotten to setFocus; I'm hoping it's something like that. Jul 12 04:18:48 well thats lame you can't see lol. Jul 12 04:18:56 I guess I'll just have to make sure mines best ;) Jul 12 04:21:28 oh yeah Jul 12 04:21:49 get it to the user.. they'll tell you if its best or not ;) Jul 12 04:23:49 mmhmm Jul 12 04:24:13 but you need to wait a bit now Jul 12 04:24:20 until the public sdk comes out Jul 12 04:25:01 Some people have suggested that I should just start now and revamp it when it comes out Jul 12 04:26:40 yeah, thats a good idea Jul 12 04:29:59 is it possible to 'overlay' Views? Jul 12 04:30:26 such that there's a transparent one on top, I mean? Jul 12 04:31:42 yeah, there are overlays Jul 12 04:31:51 check the m5 docs Jul 12 04:33:12 is that someting other thant he stuff at code.google.com/android? Jul 12 04:33:18 b/c that's all I know about, docwise Jul 12 04:52:06 http://androidapplications.com/ Jul 12 04:52:37 pjz: m5 is the latest.. which is published in code.google.com/android Jul 12 05:05:06 hmm. Jul 12 05:21:10 Is it common to use some type of ORM on Android or does everyone just write their own data access junk? Jul 12 05:54:09 no ORM Jul 12 05:54:14 only CP available Jul 12 05:56:10 CP? Jul 12 07:11:58 http://jbq.livejournal.com/ Jul 12 07:12:03 interesting blog post Jul 12 07:12:23 seems like they will release a new SDK not before the launch of the first hardware devices Jul 12 07:12:35 really? Jul 12 07:13:07 nope it isnt Jul 12 07:13:19 ah sorry pasted something wrong :) Jul 12 07:13:38 let me read Jul 12 07:13:42 Yeah in the text he talks about the SDK and the real devices Jul 12 07:14:02 Any time that we spend preparing an SDK before the final phone software is ready that could have been spent working on the actual phone software introduces additional delays in shipping the phones and the final SDK (since we'll obviously want to have an SDK out that match the shipping devices as closely as possible). Jul 12 07:14:19 muthu: so why cant I write a content provider around an ORM or some other kind of persistence? Jul 12 07:14:52 you can Jul 12 07:15:07 oh. ok =) Jul 12 07:15:10 if you do, let me know ;) Jul 12 07:15:17 hah. Haven't other people? Jul 12 07:15:31 not yet Jul 12 07:15:40 "...so if we did an SDK right now it still couldn't be used to develop applications for the devices that will ship." Jul 12 07:15:47 Why not? seems like dealing with all the SQLite bullshit directly would be a lot of work. Jul 12 07:16:03 yakischloba: it is.. but no one has the time Jul 12 07:16:20 Oh. It seems like it would be easy to do around something like db4o Jul 12 07:16:24 anno^da: hmm interesting Jul 12 07:16:37 yakischloba: yeah should be straightforward Jul 12 07:16:38 anno^da: don't trust jbq, he's French :)) Jul 12 07:16:51 haha Jul 12 07:17:01 like jbq to keep the community engaged Jul 12 07:17:12 romainguy_: you should do the same Jul 12 07:17:14 ;) Jul 12 07:17:54 yeah maybe I should stop answering questions on IRC and just write vague blog posts :) Jul 12 07:18:25 lol Jul 12 07:18:42 Why dont they offer this blogpost in the official Blog Jul 12 07:18:58 because it's not official Jul 12 07:19:08 hi 2 all Jul 12 07:19:10 But the specualtion rises Jul 12 07:19:15 while saying nothing Jul 12 07:19:19 what is android ? Jul 12 07:19:36 okrjd: welcome Jul 12 07:19:59 what is android ? Jul 12 07:20:00 android is a mobile os Jul 12 07:20:08 open and free Jul 12 07:20:44 that you can get your hands on soon ;) Jul 12 07:20:58 is it based on linux ? Jul 12 07:21:08 yes Jul 12 07:21:46 well Jul 12 07:22:01 http://code.google.com/android Jul 12 07:22:05 is it allready in release ? Jul 12 07:26:45 ok thx muthu Jul 12 07:26:48 bye Jul 12 07:26:55 bye Jul 12 07:30:47 what jbq works on? Jul 12 07:31:38 Android :) Jul 12 07:34:01 haha.. true Jul 12 08:37:57 Is it possible in Android to get an animation between the activities inside an APK ? Jul 12 08:38:19 (like the slide, flip and so on animations in the iPhone core animations) Jul 12 08:43:29 yes Jul 12 08:43:32 but you cannot set them yourself Jul 12 08:47:55 I know the predefined things but they dont work between activities right? Jul 12 08:48:04 they work only on views Jul 12 08:48:59 no they work between activities Jul 12 08:50:14 Hmm really ? I knot that they are documanted but all over the google groups discussions you get told that they dont work Jul 12 08:50:29 knot = know :-) Jul 12 08:50:39 because we don't let applications specify their own animations for 1.0 Jul 12 08:52:42 That means you wont have flip animations, slide animations between the activities (except the default one) if you have seperated your different screens into activities right ? Jul 12 08:53:01 right Jul 12 08:53:14 but in our experience they mostly slow down the flow Jul 12 08:54:52 Hmm ok I dont know I really like the flip animation, if I'm switching for example from my application to the settings ob my application. Jul 12 08:55:45 Or having a slide to the left animation after selecting one picture out of a list. (the list sliding to the left, and the picture sliding in from the right) Jul 12 08:56:38 sorry, not for 1.0 Jul 12 08:56:50 you can do this by changing views inside a single activity Jul 12 08:57:35 Yeah ok. thats what I thought about a the moment. Jul 12 08:58:25 Thank your romainguy for clearing that up for me. Jul 12 08:59:59 np Jul 12 09:01:29 From my point of view having the app and the settings screen inside one activity wouldnt be the right way using the activity approach in the right way. Jul 12 09:02:04 For the image picking example it is different thats right. Jul 12 09:12:41 animations look good in demos, but ... it's a cell phone with limited batteries, not a desktop with a graphics processor Jul 12 09:13:53 Thats right. But animations used in the right way can increase usability. Jul 12 09:14:28 I dont know but the animations in the iPhone dont cost that much battery power. Jul 12 09:14:41 it's not about battery power Jul 12 09:14:45 it's about the time it takes to navigate Jul 12 09:14:54 Yeah thats right. Jul 12 09:15:00 on my iPhone with firmware 2.0 it's driving me nuts how long it takes to go from one app to another one Jul 12 09:15:15 You should use them not after every activity Jul 12 09:15:48 I dont say that the iPhone is the holy grale there but it should be possible to to some of that stuff. Jul 12 09:16:08 we can Jul 12 09:16:12 we just chose not to for now :) Jul 12 09:16:17 :) Jul 12 09:16:58 Could you tell me sth about the UIs you've seen from the guys working on the real implementation of the devices :) (probably not :) ) Jul 12 09:17:35 I do work on the real implementation Jul 12 09:18:36 Fine. Will we see totally different UIs compared to the SDK or what we saw at the IO ? Jul 12 09:20:30 that will depends on the manufacturers and/or carriers Jul 12 09:20:31 -s Jul 12 09:21:33 but I doubt that the first devices will have a (very) different UI Jul 12 09:22:08 Hmm ok. Will the carriers look down the system in some way or let me say it different: will there be devices that really give you the possibilities of Android. Jul 12 09:22:33 * davidw hopes so Jul 12 09:36:45 Thats what I meant with "probably not" youre not allowed to speak about that. :) Jul 12 09:40:41 It's just that I don't know what carriers will do with our system :) Jul 12 09:40:49 but I'm confident they won't lock it down Jul 12 09:44:13 Ah ok just thought that you are working together with the carriers and know some details Jul 12 09:44:14 :) Jul 12 09:47:38 Do you know why there are not blog posts in the official blog informing about the developement? (except the ones from Dan Morill and otheres in their own blogs) After reading through the google groups there is much frustration about that. And it wont be taking too much time informing the developers about whats going on. (even if there would be only one post per week) Jul 12 09:48:41 And even if there isnt much to say just to keep the developers "feel" informed. Jul 12 09:49:16 because we are very busy :) Jul 12 09:55:28 Ah cmon :). Even small companys with small teams realize it to inform about their projects. (in the open source world) Jul 12 09:56:07 It cant cost that much to have one person administarting the blog and writting about whats going on :) Jul 12 09:56:29 administrating .. (sorry for my english) Jul 12 09:56:31 anno^da: Android is much more complicated that you can imagine Jul 12 09:56:46 there are reasons why there's not much communication Jul 12 09:57:01 Yeah sure but it is important to inform about whats going on. Or not? Jul 12 09:57:07 it is Jul 12 09:57:08 but Jul 12 09:57:16 it's not that simple Jul 12 09:57:25 besides Jul 12 09:57:37 the end of the year and the first devices is near :) Jul 12 09:57:42 please be patient :) Jul 12 09:59:18 Hmm ok I have to believe that. :) But if I look at other companys offering open source software like Cannonical or Mozilla (which from my point of view are complicated projects as well) the communication is much better. Jul 12 09:59:40 the project is not complicated on a technical standpoint Jul 12 09:59:54 hmm ok thats true. Jul 12 09:59:56 it's complicated because of the number of companies and and persons involved Jul 12 10:00:04 because of partnerships, because of the OHA, etc. Jul 12 10:00:07 Android is not Google's Jul 12 10:00:15 Android is driven by the OHA Jul 12 10:00:19 Yeah ok I'm trying to understand that. Jul 12 10:00:21 we do not decide to do anything we want Jul 12 12:51:15 hi Jul 12 12:51:38 i got windows mobile phone is it possible to install android ??? Jul 12 12:52:56 not yet Jul 12 12:53:05 you need to wait till android is out Jul 12 12:53:53 when the release of android ? Jul 12 12:56:04 if i understand it correctly Jul 12 12:56:26 right now there is no version of android Jul 12 12:56:34 to mobile phone Jul 12 12:56:36 is it ??? Jul 12 12:58:09 how this personn use http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=PyxWnIalDcY&eurl=http://code.google.com/android/ ??? Jul 12 12:59:58 hello Jul 12 13:41:01 ahelo Jul 12 13:58:15 hi soulreaper Jul 12 13:58:25 hi there Jul 12 13:58:31 ich bin boot kial oue Jul 12 13:59:09 ich bin doue oaue sou android Jul 12 13:59:11 ? Jul 12 14:11:55 Good Morning everyone. Jul 12 14:14:29 michaelnovakjr__: you around?! Jul 12 14:19:40 Good Morning Dougie187 Jul 12 14:19:50 Good morning Jul 12 15:22:01 anyone got any cool plans for this weekend? Jul 12 15:41:19 morning Jul 12 15:41:33 hows it going? Jul 12 15:42:03 Good good. Started digging into the docs and learning some stuff last night. I'm excited ;) Jul 12 15:42:09 nice Jul 12 15:42:12 sounds pretty cool Jul 12 15:42:34 yeah it looks like a lot of fun Jul 12 15:43:39 working on android stuff? Jul 12 15:44:01 uh huh Jul 12 15:44:06 cool Jul 12 15:44:10 you got a project in mind? Jul 12 15:44:24 yeah finally. i don't know why it didn't occur to me before. Jul 12 15:44:31 heh Jul 12 15:44:34 what are you working on? Jul 12 15:44:37 thats why i'd been procrastinating: lack of an idea Jul 12 15:45:18 something to track food intake and other health bs Jul 12 15:45:38 lol other health bs? Jul 12 15:45:44 sounds like its something your really interested in Jul 12 15:46:21 I'm a cyclist so this is something that has been annoying for me - there are all kinds of sites and programs online that will do that stuff for you but the bottom line is that you can't sit down at a computer and type something in every time you eat Jul 12 15:46:36 yeah Jul 12 15:46:47 on a cellphone it would be a lot more convenient Jul 12 15:46:52 rendering it often very ineffective Jul 12 15:46:53 yeah Jul 12 15:47:58 it probably won't be the most exciting to build (won't take advantage of all of androids e-mazing stuff) but i'm stoked ;) Jul 12 15:57:27 lol im going to work on something a bit later. Jul 12 15:57:48 it will be pretty sweet though Jul 12 15:57:59 its not going to be completely crazy with androids features either. Jul 12 15:58:02 what is it? (secret?) Jul 12 16:04:22 eh, its not secret but i have to go now. Jul 12 16:04:27 so catch me later and ill tell you. Jul 12 16:04:45 ill be back a bit later Jul 12 16:39:13 wow Jul 12 16:40:46 note to self: tell yakischloba I already wrote his app Jul 12 17:07:55 hi yakischloba Jul 12 17:08:03 hi gambler Jul 12 17:13:09 how goes it Jul 12 17:13:25 yakischloba, not bad Jul 12 17:13:40 yakischloba, regarding your food /workout tracking app Jul 12 17:13:59 yakischloba, just though id let you know i wrote something like that for J2ME awhile ago Jul 12 17:14:14 yakischloba, so i have a few ideas on how to improve on the concept if you want to discuss it Jul 12 17:14:14 and how did that go Jul 12 17:14:19 sure i'd love to Jul 12 17:15:43 yakischloba, it went ok. one issue I had at the time was that the persistence was handled differently on different phones, and it was pre JSR-82 (bluetooth) so it was a minor pain to move the database back to the PC for analysis Jul 12 17:16:01 I did it manually via Nokia file copy each time Jul 12 17:16:36 yuck. well I'm figuring it to be more simple for android Jul 12 17:17:38 well connectivity seems like a bit of an open question with android. no BT APIs yet either ...jasta rants about unreleased APIs every few days Jul 12 17:18:06 So you're talking about persisting to a computer or something? Jul 12 17:18:32 Oh ok I misread Jul 12 17:18:33 oops Jul 12 17:18:49 well i always wanted to transfer it back to my PC so I could do up fancy graphs Jul 12 17:19:06 I was planning on having a web service to handle that if people wanted to use it on a PC Jul 12 17:19:16 I was planning (hoping) to generate graphs on the device Jul 12 17:20:21 at least some. obviously you can only fit so much on a screen but I wanted some basic reporting. Jul 12 17:20:22 one of my ideas post-gymbo (gymbo is/was the name of my app) was to turn it more into a generalised diary service for structured data Jul 12 17:20:38 hmm. Jul 12 17:21:05 s.t. if you are on the go and dont have time to enter in that you ate steak w/peas and carrots etc etc, you simply snap a photo of your meal Jul 12 17:21:18 and use it as a mnemonic device later Jul 12 17:21:28 yeah thats a good one Jul 12 17:21:44 same thing with exercises...I used to do entries like this: Jul 12 17:21:50 OCR nutrition labels? hmm. Jul 12 17:21:58 BP 4@30 Jul 12 17:22:12 that meant: Bench Press - 4 reps at 30 kg Jul 12 17:22:30 yeah Jul 12 17:22:57 but often you get into situations where its hard to think of a name for an exercise and stuff Jul 12 17:23:15 so the photo again Jul 12 17:24:15 often your own notation can be confusing to yourself for more complex exercises Jul 12 17:24:22 yeah Jul 12 17:24:59 so did you supply a predefined set of foods with nutritional information? Jul 12 17:26:09 no, i basically memorized abbreviations and then had a tool on my computer to conver them into long form. If It was a new food I would type it out completely and get a prompt when I converted it Jul 12 17:26:26 nowadays you could have a database but at the time that wasnt possible Jul 12 17:26:30 too slow Jul 12 17:26:37 yeah. I plan on using a DB Jul 12 17:27:04 hopefully synchronizable with a web hosted db that people can use to share foods Jul 12 17:27:06 you really want as much as possible to cut down on the effort people have to go to enter information (eg photos) Jul 12 17:27:11 because otherwise its just too much trouble Jul 12 17:27:44 yeah. although someone like myself, for weight loss I pick a handful of foods that I know are going to work and I stick to them Jul 12 17:27:46 also scrolling through hierarchies ...Im not sure thats the best way. Jul 12 17:28:14 so I can setup my list of 'favorite' foods and after that its really easy to use Jul 12 17:29:03 yakischloba, start a business selling calorie counted / macronutrient ratio published food tagged with RFID to make your idea really work Jul 12 17:29:30 It just so happens that I could, I work for a natural foods distributor =) Jul 12 17:30:12 hmmm maybe we should discuss this in more detail Jul 12 17:30:31 That is an interesting long-term prospect heh Jul 12 17:31:28 i think so...if people at them exclusively it would allow for very methodical fitness planning Jul 12 17:31:48 mhmm Jul 12 17:32:03 being able to define a search criteria for a food and walk through a grocery store with your phone Jul 12 17:42:03 k well I gotta get to work but lets talk later Jul 12 17:42:13 I'll be in and out Jul 12 17:42:22 cheers Jul 12 18:10:51 i have returned. Jul 12 18:12:24 yakischloba: you still around? Jul 12 18:38:59 hey Dougie187 Jul 12 18:39:25 hey Jul 12 18:40:59 so, its basically a plan monitor Jul 12 18:41:15 you enter your details, and then it monitors and lets you know when you are close to your limits. Jul 12 18:41:29 and you can set hard limits to make it so you can't go over like you plan minutes or something Jul 12 18:44:31 cool Jul 12 18:44:55 No one has done that yet? I remember people talking about that a long time ago Jul 12 18:46:52 ionno Jul 13 00:02:13 good evening. Jul 13 00:02:40 good evening Jul 13 00:02:48 place is pretty dead on the weekends Jul 13 00:03:41 heh Jul 13 00:03:42 yeah Jul 13 00:03:46 im still looking for michaelnovakjr Jul 13 00:03:49 but he hasnt been around. Jul 13 00:13:42 he was here yesterday dougie Jul 13 00:16:28 yeah, thats what i figure.. Jul 13 00:17:17 so hows it going f00f-? Jul 13 00:17:54 just surviving Dougie187, just surviving Jul 13 00:17:59 yourself? Jul 13 00:17:59 heh Jul 13 00:18:02 its going good. Jul 13 00:18:19 im going to order my new laptop soon. Jul 13 00:18:22 probably tonight or tomorrow. Jul 13 00:19:26 what lappy? Jul 13 00:19:39 a thinkpad Jul 13 00:19:42 T61 Jul 13 00:25:33 nice Jul 13 00:25:36 toio bad only widescreen Jul 13 00:25:41 i have a T43p and T60p Jul 13 00:25:58 T60 has lots of problems Jul 13 00:26:03 but T61 seems to have improved lots Jul 13 00:28:31 thats cool Jul 13 00:28:36 i dont really mind the widescreen. Jul 13 00:28:42 its 14.1 though, that im gonna get. Jul 13 00:28:50 ah ok Jul 13 00:28:54 brb Jul 13 00:28:59 i've been eyeing an X61s for travel Jul 13 00:29:03 but havent bit the bullet yet Jul 13 00:29:03 k Jul 13 00:36:34 i use the T61 at work, it's nice :> Jul 13 00:55:48 well f00f- Jul 13 00:56:00 if you are interested in getting a laptop they have an awesome deal until the 14th Jul 13 00:56:13 there is a 10% off coupon for X series, and 12% cash back through fatwallet. Jul 13 00:56:16 i think at least. Jul 13 00:56:19 lemme check on the coupon part Jul 13 00:56:35 yup. Jul 13 00:56:35 http://www.fatwallet.com/cash-back-coupons/Lenovo Jul 13 00:57:09 the cash back will take a coupon months though, but lenovo has no payments for 6 months on $750 or more. Jul 13 00:57:19 s/coupon/couple/g Jul 13 00:57:20 Dougie187 meant: the cash back will take a couple months though, but lenovo has no payments for 6 months on $750 or more. Jul 13 01:02:21 ok, yeah i get employee discount Jul 13 01:02:25 probably around the same Jul 13 01:02:27 this is better then employee Jul 13 01:02:31 employee is 15% Jul 13 01:02:34 that was my other option. Jul 13 01:02:49 thats why im ordering it now. Jul 13 01:02:51 interesting Jul 13 01:03:12 at least its 15% on T series. Jul 13 01:03:16 but its 8% on R series. Jul 13 01:03:24 i've seen 25% off at times Jul 13 01:03:27 so it might be a bit more on X Series, but i would assume its the same. Jul 13 01:05:04 just ordered actually. Jul 13 01:05:10 which config Jul 13 01:05:52 just the base proc, because i couldnt bring my self to spend $120 on the better cache. Jul 13 01:05:53 infobot: what is android? Jul 13 01:05:55 zhobbs: what are you talking about? Jul 13 01:06:10 infobot: where can I find android Jul 13 01:06:11 methinks android is an Open Handset Alliance Project by Google or an alleged Open Source phone software stack that's really not open. http://code.google.com/android/, or if it's sometime actually freed, someone might port it on the neo, but the provided binaries are incompatible Jul 13 01:06:34 ha, wonder who put that in Jul 13 01:06:49 base ram. 14.1 lcd, nvidia graphics, bash hdd, cheapest os, base battery, wireless n, PC slot + media card Jul 13 01:06:59 how much did it come out to Jul 13 01:07:57 959 after tax, but im gonna get like 110 back in cash back Jul 13 01:07:59 so about 850 Jul 13 01:08:21 Bluetooth? Jul 13 01:08:42 no bluetooth, i dont use it much and i have a usb adapter. Jul 13 01:08:49 and no dvd recordable? Jul 13 01:09:01 oh hell yeah dvd recordable. Jul 13 01:09:04 regular battery Jul 13 01:09:06 ? Jul 13 01:09:07 or 9 cell Jul 13 01:09:09 reg Jul 13 01:09:19 im plugged in most of the time. Jul 13 01:09:22 so i dont need a 9cell right now Jul 13 01:09:34 no warrant or antyhing special Jul 13 01:09:40 nope Jul 13 01:10:09 $842.67 Jul 13 01:10:26 7662CTO Jul 13 01:10:35 14.1 WXGA TFT Jul 13 01:10:37 whats that? Jul 13 01:10:46 T61 Jul 13 01:10:48 with nvidia Jul 13 01:10:54 your confi Jul 13 01:10:55 g Jul 13 01:11:00 yeah Jul 13 01:11:04 but thats before tax Jul 13 01:11:10 then you have to add 60 bucks for tax Jul 13 01:11:12 and its about 900 Jul 13 01:11:21 so mines ~$50 cheaper. Jul 13 01:12:53 ah yeah it came out to 922.41 with tax and recycling fee Jul 13 01:13:12 yeah Jul 13 01:13:14 thats what does it. Jul 13 01:13:33 i was calculating it total, because you have to pay taxes on the cashback first. Jul 13 01:13:40 then you get the cashback back, but not the taxes. Jul 13 01:14:38 right Jul 13 01:15:01 yeah Jul 13 01:15:11 although 6 months to wait for the money? Jul 13 01:15:23 i dont remember how long it is, but its at least 2 months. Jul 13 01:15:42 its about 3 months. Jul 13 01:15:45 if it was 6, then i'd just pay the extra $50 Jul 13 01:15:53 not worth the hassle imho Jul 13 01:15:59 i made an order on 4/19/08 and i get the cash back on 7/18/08 Jul 13 01:16:40